Mini Normal 2336 | Birds | Night 3

[KayJayQueue]

It feels like you’re giving grace on play style while condemning on another. It just doesn’t feel consistent to me. @Val

Kay liked this post

[Hu Tao]

Blah blah blah. We should revote Alyssa

[KayJayQueue]

Blah blah blah. We should revote Alyssa

Done. You’re welcome.

[GreedyBanger]

while i didn't intend to sort, i've been told before in posts like 31 that it comes across as that - and I do see how sorting plus rushing (the eagerness others have mentioned) greatly helps scum.

Greedy, I hope what I have said above makes sense, but in case it didn't, to hammer the point home - here is something that I think lays the bleeding of that mindset bare. Post 31 was the first time I told Rosen to be careful about incidental PR hunting; and you might note how Rosen has equated that with "sorting" here, making that to be a negative.

In those other games (or at least the one I am most familiar with, with meta at the time I played it), PR hunting IS essentially equivalent to sorting. You run up each slot into hammer range early and often, you force a mass claim, or as much as you can force D1, you get everyone to claim night actions in popcorn fashion. Execute-all-liars is sacrosanct, and as town you try and solve the game like a puzzle based on the claimed night actions ie: you are "sorting" based almost entirely on whether the claimed night actions make sense in the context of the game state.

Here, in forum mafia land, to think that to be caught "sorting", the only actual proper distinguisher of town and scum, to be a negative thing IS quite rightly going to make people lacking that context uncomfortable. But that context, to me at least, explains 199, it explains 242 and it makes 49 quite an accurate and self-reflective statement, no?

I totally do get your logic here, I have played in these formats and 100% understand the point you are making and the evidence you are using to support it all tracks totally well. I just think you are identifying with Rosen specifically in a way that is overprotective. These players can get dealt scum and when they do they logically should be easier to identify. I think 199, 242 and 49 are legitimate mistakes that make sense within that narrative for a player from that background who is scum. I'm willing to throw away all the fake hustle allegations due to this line of thinking, i'm willing to throw away the role spec and VT claim due to this line of thinking but I do feel there is something stinky here.

[DArby]

Blah blah blah. We should revote Alyssa

Help me help you, please. Can you address what Val is saying?

[Val89]

It feels like you’re giving grace on play style while condemning on another. It just doesn’t feel consistent to me. @Val

I'll happy give her any grace that is deserving, once she, or anyone else for that matter, gives me something I can look at. The longer I am ignored, the more it feels like I am putting the lie to the claim that "I've caught scum doing this before." Open 916 isn't it, by her own admission.

It wouldn't take a lot to get me to shut up about this. Why do

you

think it's not forthcoming?

[Val89]

There we go, thank you.

[DArby]

It feels like you’re giving grace on play style while condemning on another. It just doesn’t feel consistent to me. @Val

I'll happy give her any grace that is deserving, once she, or anyone else for that matter, gives me something I can look at. The longer I am ignored, the more it feels like I am putting the lie to the claim that "I've caught scum doing this before." Open 916 isn't it, by her own admission.

It wouldn't take a lot to get me to shut up about this. Why do

you

think it's not forthcoming?

I don’t know, dude. Her ways are unknown to me and most living creatures.

There we go, thank you.

Welcome

[Val89]

I just think you are identifying with Rosen specifically in a way that is overprotective.

You may well be right. I make so secret of the fact I see a lot of my early self in Rosen, and maybe that's influencing my read more than it ought. Regardless, I will not support a Rosen wagon today, and I am going to continue to use whatever influence I have making sure if there is an Alyssa wagon, it's a justified once, and not because scum have sensed an easy target. You think it's entirely co-incidence that all the wagons we've had today, which the exception of T3 (speaking of, I think that's another slot that could bear further examination before we end today) have been on the three first timers that didn't flake?

It's entirely possible that one of those did roll scum, and maybe one of them get flipped today, but if people want that, I'll make sure they work for it, if for no other reason that I force those battle lines to be drawn today rather than slipping into an easy lim, and we start D2 trying to sort some slots on the basis of less posts than the moderator.

[Shinless]

Hey a full house now, nice!

Lots of rose chat, will re read it but for now, rose can you let us know your thinking when you claimed?

[KayJayQueue]

VOTE: Val

Stop trying to blatantly pocket all the new players.

[Rosenator]

Lots of rose chat, will re read it but for now, rose can you let us know your thinking when you claimed?

it was an answer made under duress! again, my background is largely from PR-heavy massclaim games on a tight timer.

in hindsight, i do understand waiting until there is an actual chance at elimination to claim as such, but i've already revealed my entire hand long ago - there is not much left that isn't on the table, so to speak.

[Val89]

VOTE: Val

Stop trying to blatantly pocket all the new players.

Thanks for the vote! It is much preferable we get to hash these things out rather than sniping from the sidelines.

In the interests of continuing this spirit of open-ness, just to clarify, your stances this game are that I am scum openly pocketing the newbies, that we should vote one of those newbies (Aylssa), and that another one of those newbies is also worth a 'side eye' (Rosen)?

[KayJayQueue]

VOTE: Val

Stop trying to blatantly pocket all the new players.

Thanks for the vote! It is much preferable we get to hash these things out rather than sniping from the sidelines.

In the interests of continuing this spirit of open-ness, just to clarify, your stances this game are that I am scum openly pocketing the newbies, that we should vote one of those newbies (Aylssa), and that another one of those newbies is also worth a 'side eye' (Rosen)?

It’s funny how you’re trying to make it out that I held all those opinions at exactly the same time. You’re my current vote, I think you saw the progression but decided to ignore it.

[Val89]

VOTE: Val

Stop trying to blatantly pocket all the new players.

Thanks for the vote! It is much preferable we get to hash these things out rather than sniping from the sidelines.

In the interests of continuing this spirit of open-ness, just to clarify, your stances this game are that I am scum openly pocketing the newbies, that we should vote one of those newbies (Aylssa), and that another one of those newbies is also worth a 'side eye' (Rosen)?

It’s funny how you’re trying to make it out that I held all those opinions at exactly the same time. You’re my current vote, I think you saw the progression but decided to ignore it.

I don't believe I'm making out you've held those opinions at the same time. If you are telling us you've undergone some sort of progression in the last page or two to go from "Best wagons are the ones on two of the three newbies" to "Val is scum trying to pocket the newbies", that's fine. Let's just get that on paper.

[Val89]

VOTE: Val

Stop trying to blatantly pocket all the new players.

Thanks for the vote! It is much preferable we get to hash these things out rather than sniping from the sidelines.

In the interests of continuing this spirit of open-ness, just to clarify, your stances this game are that I am scum openly pocketing the newbies, that we should vote one of those newbies (Aylssa), and that another one of those newbies is also worth a 'side eye' (Rosen)?

It’s funny how you’re trying to make it out that I held all those opinions at exactly the same time. You’re my current vote, I think you saw the progression but decided to ignore it.

I don't believe I'm making out you've held those opinions at the same time. If you are telling us you've undergone some sort of progression in the last page or two to go from "Best wagons are the ones on two of the three newbies" and you are now at "Val is scum trying to pocket the newbies", that's fine. Let's just get that on paper.

[KayJayQueue]

Holy white knight lol

This is kinda silly.

[Val89]

This is kinda silly.

In what way?

[Shinless]

Lots of rose chat, will re read it but for now, rose can you let us know your thinking when you claimed?

it was an answer made under duress! again, my background is largely from PR-heavy massclaim games on a tight timer.

in hindsight, i do understand waiting until there is an actual chance at elimination to claim as such, but i've already revealed my entire hand long ago - there is not much left that isn't on the table, so to speak.

Ok these are you thoughts in hindsight, but I meant at the time, was it just "someone said 'claim', better claim", or was there more consideration involved?

[Rosenator]

Lots of rose chat, will re read it but for now, rose can you let us know your thinking when you claimed?

it was an answer made under duress! again, my background is largely from PR-heavy massclaim games on a tight timer.

in hindsight, i do understand waiting until there is an actual chance at elimination to claim as such, but i've already revealed my entire hand long ago - there is not much left that isn't on the table, so to speak.

Ok these are you thoughts in hindsight, but I meant at the time, was it just "someone said 'claim', better claim", or was there more consideration involved?

just so we're clear, you're referring to 210, right?

it was precisely that anxiety. there was no sense of time to it at all - and you can see that if you look at the timestamps of the posts, plus the handful of other votes against me next to it.

[Shinless]

Yep 210. Did you know at the time that there were 3 total votes on you?

[Rosenator]

Yep 210. Did you know at the time that there were 3 total votes on you?

yes - and before you ask; no, i don't think those votes are in the room with us right now.

and while i'm here, i'd like to give my two cents on Val89: while i do see the timeline where a scum sees me flounder the way i did and think "hmm, i can make myself look good!" i don't think that would happen with the surgical precision Val did it with; nor do i think he did it with the intent of getting me to townread him back.

to yoink what every other experienced player has said in the thread: it's not AI.

[KayJayQueue]

to yoink what every other experienced player has said in the thread: it's not AI.

Unless you have proof, this is a wild claim. The only way to know that outside of having experience playing with Val, is if you have TMI and know he’s not scum so you feel good arguing this point. If this isn’t the case, well, I still don’t think this is a good argument at all.

[DArby]

to yoink what every other experienced player has said in the thread: it's not AI.

Unless you have proof, this is a wild claim. The only way to know that outside of having experience playing with Val, is if you have TMI and know he’s not scum so you feel good arguing this point. If this isn’t the case, well, I still don’t think this is a good argument at all.

I’d like to second this thought.

[DArby]

What do you mean by surgical precision? Do you just mean having a big wall of text with post links on it? Or do you have any stronger argument outside of vibes?