Newbie 1546: Binary Trolls (Game Over!)

[Bulbazak]

010011000110111101101111011010110010000001101101011000010010110000100000011011100110111100100000011010000110000101101110011001000111001100100001

Vote Count

TGGC (2): Luca Blight, Shiro
Netherspite (1): TGGC
Toolenduso (0):
JohnnyFarrar (0):
Shiro (0):
BlueBloodedToffee (0):
Luca Blight (0):
VictorDeAngelo (1): BlueBloodedToffee
GuyInFreezer (0):

Not Voting (5): VictorDeAngelo, GuyInFreezer, JohnnyFarrar, Toolenduso, Netherspite

It is day 1. With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day ends on Sunday, November 2 at 11:30pm EST. Countdown: (expired on 2014-11-02 23:30:00).

[JohnnyFarrar]

I believe the doc claim. The two scenarios where there is a doctor also have investigation roles, so that would just be a dumb claim to make as scum.

Exploring other options at this point, would be nice if GIF, Vic, and (if possible) Blue could weigh in.

[Shiro]

Well that threw me off although there is still the possibility of only one PR in the team with two goons(Thus making it impossible to know if claim is fake or not) or this could in theory be an attempt to to find a PR but his post seemed really town.

*sigh*

UNVOTE

It is strange that Carli claimed VT but. Benefit of the doubt.

So VDA when are you going to show up ?

[Netherspite]

There is no possible setup where Town Doctor can't be counterclaimed.

[Shiro]

There is no possible setup where Town Doctor can't be counterclaimed.

1 cop two goon

[Netherspite]

ah well.
still, there's only 1 out of 4 possible setups where doc claim is safe. however there was nothing for him to lose so your point is valid.

[Netherspite]

Hmm, so if he is saying the truth he'll die N1 anyway because scum will most likely kill him.
And even if he doesn't, no counterclaims mean that we have at least one investigative role who can check him at night and be sure whether he's scum or town.
Thus, we really should not lynch him D1 by any means regardless of the possibility of him being the scum risking the fake claim that can be uncounterable in 25% of cases.
===

If we assume that he's townie (and Carli was too) then we can perform some weak VCA.
I'll quote the dynamics of the votes on Carli/TGGC:

Carli (0):
Carli (1): Luca Blight
Carli (2): Luca Blight, Dyslexicon
Carli (2): Luca Blight, Dyslexicon
Carli (3): Luca Blight, Dyslexicon, Toolenduso
Carli (3): Luca Blight, Dyslexicon, Toolenduso
Carli (3): Luca Blight, Dyslexicon, Toolenduso
TGGC (3): Luca Blight, Toolenduso, Shiro
TGGC (3): Luca Blight, Toolenduso, Shiro
TGGC (4): Luca Blight, Toolenduso, Shiro, Netherspite L-1
TGGC (4): Luca Blight, Toolenduso, Shiro, Netherspite L-1
TGGC (2): Luca Blight, Shiro

Also, the declared reason of everyone jumping on his/her wagon:

Luca Blight

For buddying that Netherspite guy.

Dyslexicon

With that ^ said, I am not ignorant. I do know what the random voting stage is and what it entails/ the events of such a stage. Hence I said I would like to discuss D1 lynches because you think that it's really something we shouldn't be afraid of where I think that we need to be careful not to speedlynch a townie with no scummy vibe on them. In the end, the more town people we have the better chance we have of winning this game.

And do you think a speedlynch is likely?

Moving on, I like this Netherspite guy your play style (or the plan thereof) seems fantastic to me. Clarity and logic will help us win this game.

What do you think of his clarity and logic?

Vote: Carli

For buddying that Netherspite guy.

I like you.

{...}

To me Carli and GIF have some explaining to do.

{...}

Forgot my vote.

VOTE: Carli

<3

Toolenduso

Carli:

-The lack of a vote after commenting on others' random votes does feel a little bit like scummy hesitation/fluffposting.
-#38 feels gut-weird to me as well, perhaps a little defensive.
-#98 again feels overly cautious to me. The justification for being hesitant/scared/etc of D1 lynching is that we need to take our time when lynching because town players are valuable...now, I'm willing to give a little benefit of the doubt on this one because it takes time to learn all the little nuances of mafia, but it does add to the record of hesitation.
-The end of that same post could be diverting attention as well. It's a very good point, but it does come in the same post Carli is defending herself in.

{...}

VOTE: Carli

That's L-2.

Shiro

Yes there was. I was waiting for Carli to speak which actually bring us up to now where instead of speaking she bailed out

VOTE:TGGC

So when you read up why did you think your pre bailed after pressure ?

Netherspite

Hmm, it seems that Carli also did all the things I accused Shiro for: not scumhunting and playing defensively.
Also all the weird things others noticed and the fact that TGGC decided to help getting another wagon going asap in his only post in this game...
I think it's a good moment to put TGGC at L-1.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TGGC

Don't hammer him yet by the way, let him defend himself or claim.

Also my vote was initially a trap to attempt catching you on a lie about reading the topic fully because I knew that Carli claimed VT and wondered whether you know it as well or not.
If you would mention that you know about her claim I'd unvote and switch back to Shiro.

===========


To be honest, I hate all those votes except for

toolenduso

's vote may be. And except mine, obviously.
Weak or no reasoning. I can't follow their thought process on these votes.

The most suspicious votes for me were those coming from

Dyslexicon

and

Shiro

.
Since we can't ask

Dyslexicon

anymore, I can't resolve my bad feelings about his vote

Shiro

's vote looked too much like following an advice of

BlueBloodedToffee

, who had just replaced into the game at this point and asked him why didn't he vote.
That sequence... BlueBloodedToffee unvotes; asking Shiro why doesn't he vote; Shiro votes the target BlueBloodedToffee just unvoted. Coincidence?...

Hmm, I also don't see why

Shiro

and

Dyslexicon

/

BlueBloodedToffee

can't be scumpartners.

Shiro

taking gentle advice from more experienced scumbuddy and voting the most easy wagon...

BlueBloodedToffee

spending his whole time in the game defending his scumpartner

Shiro

and faking scumhunting by voting someone who won't get a wagon going on him for sure...
Not a 100% evidence of course, but it's the most possible scumteam from the remaining players.

I'll vote

Shiro

again because the deadline is close and I think we have to decide on D1's lynch asap.
My reasoning is already posted earlier + this post.

VOTE: Shiro


Also, tomorrow I'll post intentions behind all the questions I've asked during D1 as I promised in the beginning of the game.

[JohnnyFarrar]

Tomorrow irl or tomorrow in-game?

[Netherspite]

Tomorrow irl. Too tired today, going to sleep in few minutes.

I've re-read posts of BlueBloodedToffee and Shiro once again having my theory in mind... and it seems like the it fits the theory pretty well.
BlueBloodedToffee teaches Shiro how to play, explains why he shouldn't ask TGGC to justify Carli's actions, etc.

[Luca Blight]

I still don't get why Carli claimed VT when she did if she was Doc. Obviously there is a chance that TGGC knew he was going to be lynched, so attempted to draw the Doc out with a counter-claim, or survive if there isn't one. If TGGC is lying, would it be best for the Doc, if there is one, to counter-claim at this point?

I guess I will unvote for now. I'm not sure what to make of Shiro; she has certainly been the next most scummy player in this game, but I would like to hear from a few of the others.

UNVOTE:

[JohnnyFarrar]

The real doc should not counter claim if he's lying. I'd rather have a living hidden doc than trade him/her for 1 dead scum.

[toolenduso]

I'm going to approach this with the perspective that the doc claim is probably legit, especially since it came at L-2.

Looking at all the votes on Carli/TGGC, I'm thinking Nether's actually looks the worst. Here's Nether's posting arc:

Spoiler: Selected Nether posts about Carli/TGGC

@Carli

I can't get rid of feeling that your posts are just an attempt to dodge any possible suspicion towards you and are not containing any useful information.
May be it is caused by the complicated wording and my terrible english skills though.

At this point Carli has two votes on her.

Slight suspicion at Carli and Shiro.

Two votes on Carli.

Carli is my second suspect after you. So I'll definitely join the policy lynch in case we won't make another decision till deadline.

Three votes on Carli.

In other words, Carli is "pending" in slight scumread state for me until she posts some more while Shiro is already determined as more strong scumread.

Three votes on Carli.

We shouldn't pretend Carli never did anything scummy but we shouldn't just lynch her without listening to her replacer either.

Three votes on TGGC.

I'm getting unsure in my vote to be honest. Carli was my second suspect and more and more evidences for her scumminess appear.
I also really didn't like how her replacer just jumped into Shiro's wagon. As I wrote, it looked like an attempt to move the focus from him and get another wagon going.
I really don't believe Shiro and Carli can be both scum. It would be too strong play to bus each other so seriously, highly unlikely.
I don't believe there's no scum among them both either. I think I'll re-read the topic tomorrow (since it's 3:25 am here at the moment) to decide who of them is more likely to flip scum.

Three votes on TGGC.

Hmm, it seems that Carli also did all the things I accused Shiro for: not scumhunting and playing defensively.
Also all the weird things others noticed and the fact that TGGC decided to help getting another wagon going asap in his only post in this game...
I think it's a good moment to put TGGC at L-1.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TGGC

Don't hammer him yet by the way, let him defend himself or claim.

This puts TGGC at four votes.

There is a definite town explanation for this posting arc, but there's also a very believable scum explanation: that Nether kept Carli at arm's length throughout the game hoping that the mislynch would go through without his help and that after TGGC replaced in he either felt that the wagon was in need of some pushing or he saw an opportunity to attach himself to the wagon without arousing too much suspicion.

Part of that is the wording of the post in which he votes TGGC: "Hmm, it seems that Carli also did all the things I accused Shiro for: not scumhunting and playing defensively." It kind of reads like somebody who has decided they are going to move their vote and is looking for an explanation after the fact.

Then there's this:

So you've read every post yet you don't know that Carli already claimed and it was broadly discussed?
Very well. I'm happy with my vote on you then.

Which seems shallow to me and could be scum worried that they look bad because of their vote and trying to shore up their reasoning.

VOTE: Netherspite

[Netherspite]

@toolenduso

I wonder how you could get to this conclusion after I've explained my intentions and thought process during the entire game, but anyway.
I'll repeat the key mistakes in your post:

1. If I am scum, why would I help pushing mislynch of Carli while she would be lynched without any help and there was also a good replacement growing wagon on Shiro (since if we assume that I'm scum he's most likely townie I'd want his mislynch as much)?
2. I've explained that my vote was initially a trap / reaction test and became a real vote only after I got some confirmation for my words. After all, I was right that the Carli's claim was fake. I only was wrong about in what way it was fake (and we even are not sure in this yet).

===

Regarding counterclaims.
Personally, I'd prefer to exchange 1 PR for 1 scum, especially considering we'll still have 1 investigative PR alive.
I realize that stating this can attract more suspicion to me and make me a better lynchbait (since finding a real Doc is called a good reason for TGGC to fake claim by toolenduso). But that's my opinion.

===

There is a good chance I'll become a good lynchbait it seems.
So, I'd like to warn you in advance: townies, please don't hammer me before I wrote all I want to share with you (I'll share alot if my wagon will keep growing so you'll have more information after my flip).
Also, before voting me, please re-read BlueBloodedToffee & Shiro communication after BlueBloodedToffee replaced in and tell me it's not yelling that they're scumteam.

[JohnnyFarrar]

I'm not really into guessing at teams before we know anyone's roles. It's a field of paranoia that has little sway.

The doc claim saves him. Due to this setup being the way it is there's really a multitude of ways we can catch him in the lie (if he's lying) so I'm cool with leaving a potential town PR alive to do his job.

Right now I'd love weigh-ins from everyone. The only people I'm not ok with lynching today are Tool and TGGC. Everyone else is on one of my various "They could probably die" levels.

GIF should talk. Can't remember him taking any stand on any thing.

Blue should talk, though I'll understand if he can't. I don't like that he's all "This slot claimed 2 different things." and then doesn't say anything else.

Vic is 4 hours away from a proddin' and ain't said shit.

I don't like that Luca saw the claim, unvoted and peaced out. This is not the time for a "I'll wait" without at least something telling us where your head's at.

Nether's an interesting case. I just get a sense of unease thinking about him. Probably the whole "I'm not gonna share my thoughts until LATER" thing that just boggles my mind. Still waiting on that.

And Shiro is scummy-ish, but half the things people are using to vote her I don't agree with, and as a result I'm skittish to join that wagon.

So basically I'm waiting to vote until more shit happens. Hopefully that shit is Nether making me less unhappy. But we'll see. I'll be around almost always because I have a problem and can't stop checking the site. buhbye for now.

[Shiro]

@Nether

Yea because deadline or before hammer is best time to lay down your thoughts. Keep being pro town like that. I honestly doubt you have anything other than Shiro hasnt been scum hunting and bein survivalistic.
Hey didnt you say you dont vote someone unless you have a case ? How comes you voted for rxn ?

@Farrar
VDA is going to replace imo. GiF was vl hopefully he will post today.

Btw Nether my interaction with blue has pretty much been him asking me why I am not voting and me going "oh yea I did say I would vote carli slot if she replaces" Shockingly scummy. I know.

Also with most people away if you were scum you kinda had to vote carli slot for a mislynch there to happen. GiF town reads slot and VDA is MIA without you lynch wasnt happening.

Granted @TGGC why were u certain I was town ? In Nethers hypothetical question u said it will lead to two townies lynches. How so sure about me ?

[Netherspite]

By the way, here is my first question.

@lolbabe

, are you considering any of listed behaviors as scummy?

That was more of a filler question than making any sense, really.
An attempt to start some discussion because at that point of the game there was no discussion going.

@lolbabe

, do you consider hiding the scumbuddy at the cost of revealing yourself at the beginning of the game is the good scumplay?

She guessed that I can play scummy to hide my scumbuddy.
I found it weird decision and since I wouldn't do it, I asked her whether she finds it a good play. She answered that she did it once but it was a game with 3 scum in it.
Not that I was perfectly satisfied by her answer but it didn't ping my scum radar.

@GIF

, do you know that GIF is outdated? Can I call you PNG? j/k, don't take it seriously

A joke. Just a joke.

@bananas34

, do you consider OMGUS vote really belonging to the RVS stage?

I don't like OMGUS votes, especially during RVS, so I wanted to hear some explanation (he didn't answer, btw).

Do you consider questions I asked so far "silly" ?

She mentioned that asking "silly" questions is wrong. Since I don't think my questions are silly, I decided to ask whether she thinks they are and why.

Oh, by the way. If I'd say I like you, would you consider me buddying with you as well?

@Luca Blight

, am I buddying the IC here ? Should I be lynched for that?
{...}
How exactly having scum feeling relaxed and nice can give scum any profit if that can lead them to making more mistakes assuming no one watches them closely?

That dreaded buddying discussion. I won't quote most of it because it's pretty useless. Intentions behind all these questions was the same: I don't think buddying is a scum tell on its own and I was arguing with Luca about it for a while.

@Shiro

I wonder though, why are you so concerned about whether I've "thrown my shield" already or not? Does it matter that much at this point?

This is where I noticed that he's too concerned about meaningless things and is not really scumhunting.

@Shiro

Do you prefer playing scum or town and why?
What do you think about my argument with

Luca Blight

?

I often ask what alignment player prefers and why, because it helps to understand their behavior in current game.
In fact, it is kind of experiment and I didn't yet decide whether this question provides any useful results or not since it's only my second game on forums.

Second question was to get finally some reads from him, it didn't really succeeded though and that made me even more suspicious about him not even trying to scumhunt or read players.

@Carli

, why are you so concerned about avoiding any suspicion towards you?

Being concerned about avoiding any suspicion is a big red flag for me.
I'm never afraid of getting suspicion if it takes it to find out the truth. Especially at D1.
Even if I'll get lynched for my questions/thoughts, town will see my flip later and will be able to use that information later.
I don't hesitate to start a hot argument with someone either because some players tend to reveal their true form when angry/arguing.
I follow the simple and easy rule: more information for the town = better.
So if someone is so concerned about dodging the suspicion during D1... It's either really newbie or scum.

vote:lolbabe

Vote: Lolbabe

These two are probably not scumbuddies, not together anyway, because even at the RVS phase it would be too telling to vote one player one right after another.

And why would scum do that?

Misread the original quote, he in fact stated that they can't be scum together.

@Shiro

Who do you find most mysterious players in this game and what would you like to hear from them to make them less mysterious?
Please be specific

I really wondered after his words, if he finds some players mysterious, why doesn't he do anything to learn more?
Basically it was some kind of attempt to get him scumhunting.

@lolbabe

Who you find the most muddiest besides

Carli

?

Attempt to get some reads.

@GiF

Who do you townread at this point and why?

Same.

VictorDeAngelo

Did you forget about this game again? Do you find this game boring?
What alignment do you prefer to play and why?

Explained the second question above.
In conjunction with the first question it was an attempt to learn about why is he ignoring our game.
Is it because he got an alignment he doesn't like ?
I never said it before so I will do it now: I believe he is lurking so much because he got a VT role in this game and he is bored with some newbie game where he is just a VT.

Dyslexicon

Didn't "today" end already?
What would you do if you'd be at L-1? Would you keep lurking?

Was kind of desperate question since he was lurking a lot.

@Shiro

So basically your reasoning for intention to vote

VictorDeAngelo

is that if

Carli

is maf then her partner is lurker.
Why don't you just vote

Carli

straight then? Because there's more players lurking or semi-lurking in this game and you assume that

Carli

is maf in your reasoning, so why not just vote her?
And if you don't think she's maf then why do you base your reasoning on this assumption?

Self-explanatory questions. He voted lurker just for the fact he is lurking and because he's the most likely Carli partner. That looked just weird.

So does it mean that you have absolutely no scum reads at this point (because voting lurkers would be desperate move)? I'm not that surprised, because you did nothing to scumhunt during the game so far, but please answer anyway.
Also, do you have at least some town reads?

Pretty much just continuation of the previous post.
Still attempting to get some explanation from him for his weird vote and some reads.

Also, I find it fun that you're preferring GiF's read over yours. Don't you consider the possibility of IC being the scum? Or do you

know

that he is not the scum?

Seems like I was the first who noticed this weirdness.
He prefers GiF's opinion over his own?...

Do you understand that if we won't scumhunt we'll lose? Are you playing against your role goal?
Or is your role goal actually to make town lose?

A bit of sarcasm here.

Regarding the speedlynch concern... There is a wagon at L-2 at this moment. Do you think that posting a case, say, 2 days before the deadline would switch the wagon to you so fast? I doubt so. So, again, why are you so concerned about it?

Does anybody remember how Shiro was really concerned about getting

speedlynched

when he had no votes on him and there was a wagon at L-2? Don't you find it weird?

Lets try to find the scum together then? Share your thoughts finally. As you can see, we are not going to get lurkers speaking long enough before the deadline. So there won't be enough time to build a wagon on any of them.
Do you townread everyone who is not lurking? Do you think that it's possible to build a wagon on some random lurker to avoid a mislynch? Do you think it is a good idea?

Continuing here. He in fact still was not going to contribute to the scumhunting and kept his thoughts (if he had any) with him.

@VictorDeAngelo

Ain't it the monday you promised us to post at already?
[sarcasm]Or did you mean next monday?[/sarcasm]

Some more sarcasm.

@Shiro

Do you feel it is good idea to put someone at

L-1

right after he/she was replaced?
Why?

Not letting a replacer to speak before putting him at L-1 is not really a good play imo.

@BlueBloodedToffee

, also, mind explaining your vote as well?

He voted VDA and didn't provide a single word of explanation for it...

Shiro putting that slot at l-1 now is making me hesitant to hammer

Is it the only thing stopping you from hammering?
I really don't think we should be eager to lynch anyone considering the deadline extension. Every extra post from possible lynchees is extra information to interprete their flips tomorrow.

That was weird for me because I don't think hammering Carli/TGGC would be a good idea even without that Shiro's vote.

A fun exercise for

Shiro

and

TGGC

. Imagine a hypothetical rule of the game: if any of you is getting lynched and flips town then the other one will get lynched D2 instantly.
Would you vote the other one in such case and why?

This had a potential of attraction suspicion but I believed that I'll learn something from it.
A genuine townie answer for this question would be something like "I wouldn't vote because I can't be 100% sure in anyone's alignment and thus if he's town we'll lose 4 townies."
So basically it's a bad for the town to vote with such rule in place (if the rule is only valid for some specific players and I worded it exactly in this way).
I didn't like TGGC's answer to this question, but it does not matter now as we won't lynch him today no matter what.

@JohnnyFarrar

Playing against townie's role goal is not scummy play?
What is a scummy play then? Define and provide examples, please.

This was a little argument on whether not scumhunting is scum play or newbie town play.

@VictorDeAngelo

How to understand this "we" ?...

He spoke like a hydra while he can't be hydra in newbie games.
I found it just weird.

[Netherspite]

====

Here I explain intentions behind all questions I asked in this game.

I'll post some conclusions below.

[Shiro]

Do so. If anything it is good you got convinced to do it now instead of deadline/before hammer.

[Netherspite]

So, with all these intentions on the table, I think it's now obvious why I think that Shiro is scum.
It was a long way, many weird things... I tried to get some towny behavior from him to counter my theory but he refused to do it.
He was playing against town for the whole D1 so I can't get myself into believing he is town.

Also his jumping into Carli's wagon was the worst. Putting at L-1 just because someone said him to vote?
He was as sure that she's scum earlier yet he decided to vote VDA because he's lurking and he's the most likely Carli's scumpartner?... Now he decides to vote her instead of VDA? Was it because I pointed it out how weird VDA vote was?

Just read again all my questions towards him and my comments. It's enough of the evidence to lynch him.

And as I said in my wall of text, I'm not really concerned about my own survival, even if scum will succeed in making me a lynchbait, please revisit this post (and the wall of text above) after my flip and lynch the right target.

===

Also, regarding my TGGC's vote. I'll sum it again: I decided to vote him because Carli did all the things I was accusing Shiro for initially + some more weird things pointed out by others.
Since there were many points others posted I agreed with, I decided that Carli is more likely to be scum.

I definitely would not vote TGGC if I were scum just because he'd get lynched without my vote. The deadline is not that close yet.

[Shiro]

I never voted VDA XD And I did explain both my answer to Tool and that the answer was not connected to my if carli is svum possible lurker partner theory and the vote on carli.

BUT at the very least I can see where you are coming from even if you are wrong.xD

[Netherspite]

Sorry, you're right, you didn't vote VDA, only intended to.

[Netherspite]

Still, the statement stands, just in a bit weaker form.
And there is plenty of other things that make me think you're scum.

[Netherspite]

Also, I'd really like to finally hear your thoughts and reads on everyone in the game.

[Shiro]

Quick one cause on phone but

Nether:Town especially after last post. I was doubting that read cause I thought u were BSing about your play which is why I tried to make you out that wall above but yea town

Farrar: Town. Done nothing but try to game solve from the moment he entered

Tool: Town. Again the same. He is trying to gamesolve

Blue:Hasnt done anything of significant other than suspect VDA. If VDA is scum he is possible bussing the inactive buddy but that is speculstion

Luca: I had town vibes in the start both from the conv u had and tge way he pushed Carli. He became lurkish but I still get town vibes from him.

GiF:GiF has turned null. Early town vibes but his MIA eh.

TGGC: Benefit of the doubt but I dont but the claim tbh. It seems too convinient. Especially since he stated beforehand that he doesnt consider carli post a claim. It seems planned and if maf doest have a roleblocker chances are 66% that he wont be cc. (Taking into account bp wouldny cc cause he would be useless afterwards.

VDA: Nothing to say but tbh I think he is scum. If anything out of PoE His first excuse seemed BS saying he forgot about the game. Then busy but post monday and then oh yea will get to it. Just replace if you cant play right now. >.>

[Netherspite]

If they have no RB, there is 4 possible setups:

row 1 : town JK can CC
row 3: town BP can CC. he shouldn't claim BP obviously but he can rather claim doc/JK and get a double win: get the scum lynched and get his BP used.
column A: town JK can CC
column B: no one can CC

so only 25% chance that no1 will CC a doc claim.