In post 3399, northsidegal wrote:He feels towny, but i generally prefer to make reads based on things a bit more concrete than that. He's not a townread because i like to be confident in my townreads.
Without trying to come off as harsh or aggressive in the slightest, what's your point here? Are you saying that you think i should think of him as more towny? If it's that you think he should be higher in my readslist, i really don't think that matters all that much. Like, i'm not planning on pushing him today, i think it's probably unlikely that a wagon on him goes through today, so his relative position on a list that's really meant to just help me organize my thoughts more than anything else doesn't seem all that meaningful. If any of those things happened then it might matter more, i just feel like if that pops up, then it can be dealt with then.
Okay sure, I can see why this would be the case.
I mean, I'm clearly driving his wagon right now and he's one of the competing wagons to you and Penguin, so of course I care. Even if you don't think it's worth pursuing that read more, there are three people voting him right now, so...???
AFAICT, the wagons are pretty similar in size, so why are you making this distinction that hyung's an unlikely wagon to go through today? Unless you just think you're probably getting lynched today (I could see this happen). Penguin is a meh wagon overall, and while I think it's a wagon that could happen and I may even join it, nothing makes me think it will definitely go through today (and no one's stating anything solid on him other than he just isn't here).
I also questioned you bringing up old reads, because afaict, you updated them later in the day. So why not explain those instead? Why did you feel like it would be more productive to go back and explain older reads instead of the ones you have right now (or the ones you had listed most recently)?
In post 3401, pirate mollie wrote:@brian - you chastize me earlier for going after nsg for old reads
I'm pretty sure you accused her of having sticky reads (which I don't think was the case, and even if it was I don't feel like the flips would have necessitated a change in her reads at the time).
This is different. She is
explaining
older reads that I do not think are immediately relevant (and going off of notes?).
In post 3403, pirate mollie wrote:I think the thing that bothers me the most is that nsg is more preoccupied with how she is perceived rather solving
I think town are likely to do this as well in her position?
And I definitely do think she is trying to solve she's just solving in the wrong directions.
In post 3401, pirate mollie wrote:@brian - you chastize me earlier for going after nsg for old reads
I'm pretty sure you accused her of having sticky reads (which I don't think was the case, and even if it was I don't feel like the flips would have necessitated a change in her reads at the time).
This is different. She is
explaining
older reads that I do not think are immediately relevant (and going off of notes?).
Hhmm, gotcha, that isn't how I read it at first but that makes sense.
In post 3381, northsidegal wrote:I guess i probably haven't been as clear in my reasoning as i think i have - here are a few things that i wrote down at the start of the day, if it helps:
^Maybe I'm just being unnecessarily nitpicky here, and she's just bringing it up for clarification purposes.
I mean, I'm clearly driving his wagon right now and he's one of the competing wagons to you and Penguin, so of course I care. Even if you don't think it's worth pursuing that read more, there are three people voting him right now, so...???
AFAICT, the wagons are pretty similar in size, so why are you making this distinction that hyung's an unlikely wagon to go through today? Unless you just think you're probably getting lynched today (I could see this happen). Penguin is a meh wagon overall, and while I think it's a wagon that could happen and I may even join it, nothing makes me think it will definitely go through today (and no one's stating anything solid on him other than he just isn't here).
What, really?
I honestly must have missed that - i literally thought alisae was the only one voting hyung. has he even posted yet today?
that's my bad - i'll go back and reread.
I also questioned you bringing up old reads, because afaict, you updated them later in the day. So why not explain those instead? Why did you feel like it would be more productive to go back and explain older reads instead of the ones you have right now (or the ones you had listed most recently)?
I didn't "go back" and do anything, i copy/pasted something that i already had written down.
Any updates to the reads that i posted in the spoiler i write underneath the spoiler.
In post 3403, pirate mollie wrote:I think the thing that bothers me the most is that nsg is more preoccupied with how she is perceived rather solving
I think town are likely to do this as well in her position?
And I definitely do think she is trying to solve she's just solving in the wrong directions.
Okay so i misread and you've been voting hyung since the very start of the day, mollie and alisae are both voting there and hyung has yet to post today.
I didn't really get the sense that anyone was "driving" his lynch or even that he was a competing wagon. Nobody really seems to have said all that much about their scumread there.
In post 3401, pirate mollie wrote:I swear the top posters who have posted today feel and I çant tell if my gut ate bad pizza or I am really gut feeling accurately or not.
I kind of want to lynch the useless it just seems too easy. And this game isn't easy which is why I doubt my gut.
@brian - you chastize me earlier for going after nsg for old reads
Shrug to me it is. The hard part is getting people to listen.
In post 3417, xRECKONERx wrote:hyung has lurkedalot anyway and his d2 posting wasnt thrilling
This is a complete misrep. Yeah he's not as active as others but you're making the mistake of reading activity as AI and if you read his posts there's legit content. He's the worst wagon today. If you're going to lynch someone for lurking vote penguin.
I think Hyung's Day 1 case is pretty convincing, and it makes me rethink how I've been reading Hyung this game. I also think that if NSG and I are both town, that scum could have avoided jumping on her yesterday for the roleblock claim.
Penguin didn't have a reaction toward the NSG wagon at all (whereas everyone else reacted to it at least in some way). Hyung's was king of suspicious in that he called her reaction town but hedged on it (Titus kind of said this yesterday).
I think Penguin's early posting is okay. I don't like that he's disappeared, but once again, we're a pretty loquacious playerlist, so hard to tell if he's scum or just getting buried.
I'm not opposed to his lynch. My lynchpool is currently <hyung, Penguin, Reck, Titus>. Titus is not one I'm confident in either. Nor is Reck (although I've never had Reck above null-scum this game).
In post 3338, Brian Skies wrote:Reck, just out of curiosity, who do you scumread outside of NSG.
Can I interest you in a Penguin/Hyung lynch today? You actually suspect them to some degree.
Okay, to be fair I'm not doing a great job of driving the Hyung wagon, but that's because he isn't here and people want to talk about other things. I also feel like LLD did a better job than I would do on Day 1 and Titus did a passingly okay job of it Day 2. I'm also lazy and both want to see others that have expressed suspicion on their slot to help me push him (because I'm lazy) and to see how others feel about Hyung (nope, just one handful of people that argue with each other and express their reads while the rest do jack all).
I don't really want to do PbPA, but I don't think I can do it any other way without it being a completely unreadable and garbled wall (even moreso than the one I'm about to give you).
Day 1
250, 271, 314: Early posting, not really scummy. 375: Originally, I thought this was an okay reason for Hyung to suspect her, and thought he had the best reasoning to be on his wagon. Looking back, I don't get the same impression regarding Cheeky and don't see how it couldn't have just been Cheeky responding to T-Bone.
Spoiler: TBone+Cheeky+Hyung Posts in Juxtaposition
In post 323, T-Bone wrote:If you're legit confused that's fine. Here is the sequence of events. You did some things which I had commented on quite a few times. I then said, "at no point did I ever make a judgment about your alignment". You said, "Why not". And I said "Maybe you did it because you are insecure about your own abilities as a player. Maybe you did it because you are scum and you feel like "this is what town-me should do."" And then I explained that since voice that "you could be scum or town" amounts to empty content, it is not worth exploring...because everyone can be scum or town. And if I'm going to criticize players for empty content either now or in the future, I can't do it myself...because it isn't helpful for me or anyone else to find scum. Does that make sense?
As for Reck, he can do what he wants, it isn't my job to worry about whether someone is going to vote for me or not. It is my job to determine people's alignment and find scum. The statement by itself doesn't move the needle for his alignment to me, so I didn't react to it.
I don't feel that I (or any player, especially if they are also town) need to react to every single thing. It is okay to let other people play the game too.
(please keep in mind I am still not accusing you of anything, I am explaining my thought processes)
In post 325, CheekyTeeky wrote:@Tbone I'm a reaction tester/intent reader. I find it hard to get good reads when I'm disconnected. Also each time I let the thread breathe it slows down to an unproductive level. I don't see the harm in trying to generate real game content. I also don't get why you find the need to take a teaching stance with me. As you can tell I'm far from insecure and I feel I'm a pretty effective town player, it just feels like you're trying to shut me up and discredit me each time we interact and I don't see the town intent in going about it the way you are. If you want me to stfu then just tell me to stfu or generate discussion elsewhere.
In post 325, CheekyTeeky wrote:@Tbone I'm a reaction tester/intent reader. I find it hard to get good reads when I'm disconnected. Also each time I let the thread breathe it slows down to an unproductive level. I don't see the harm in trying to generate real game content. I also don't get why you find the need to take a teaching stance with me. As you can tell I'm far from insecure and I feel I'm a pretty effective town player, it just feels like you're trying to shut me up and discredit me each time we interact and I don't see the town intent in going about it the way you are. If you want me to stfu then just tell me to stfu or generate discussion elsewhere.
this really comes across as scum throwing up walls preemptively. i didn't see anything from tbone that could cause such an over the top reaction. it's way more flustered than believable.
vote: cheeky
377, 379: Some posts that generally look like sorting at first glance. I'm not digging the read on Firebringer and it seems more like something scum would say than something town would (in the sense that it's taken from a top-down view rather than something based on something more tangible or natural feeling). 437, 476, 477, 558, 610, 656: All of these posts have the intention to shade Cheeky or continue to push her wagon without actually saying anything about her alignment. I do agree with LLD that his push against Cheeky up to this point feels more like him pushing something he thinks he can get lynched rather than him trying to actually sort Cheeky. Him throwing a tantrum about it also seems a little overblown and it's not like people don't see wagons fail to go through. (I was reading this as town frustration at the time, but I no longer feel this is the case) 612: The readslist does look like some sort of sorting is going on, and I do not find his reads disagreeable (except for maybe like Pine). ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 687, 701, 702: My initial impression of these posts that they were too brazen to come from scum. Maybe I'm wrong? There are more of them, just don't feel like listing them all. Read above regarding tantrum. 1551, 1691, 1723, 1724: These were all of his posts over the span of like four days or so (about a week if you include 951 when he straight up left after we didn't give him the Cheeky lynch). There is a little bit of hypocrisy in 1724, but hypocrisy isn't really a scumtell. 1738[post], [post]1739, 1740: Maybe this is an accurate read of Reck? Either way, this is another one of those top-down observations that I feel like scum are more likely to make than town. How does he know that Reck is just attacking people's townreads and sowing mistrust instead of just pushing people and sorting them? Bonus points for throwing shade on Cheeky and keeping his scumread consistent. 1869: This post is somewhat apathy inducing ('I'm unmotivated' + 'this day should have been over 40 pages ago'). He gives off a slightly superior tone regarding his reads, but doesn't actually do much to push either his Reck scumread or his Cheeky scumread. Also did not get a huge feeling that he really wanted Hiplop over AA9. I also get the feeling that Hyung could have been avoiding the AA9 wagon in general. Pine had already started fighting against the AA9 wagon in 1732 (maybe earlier), so can't really give him credit for his observations regarding AA9 and Hiplop, and when the AA9 wagon was gaining traction, he was voting Reck and doing almost nothing to fight the AA9 wagon. 2001: Pretty sure this is his read regarding AA9. Still feels like a top-down read. 2002: This post is okay, but only because I thought Hiplop was an okay wagon at the time (still kinda do). His opinion regarding the AA9 wagon here continues the trend of top-down. 2016: Can't say I have an issue with this post, especially given the context. 2017: Okay observation about Vax. I don't really think AA9 was an uncalled for scumread by Vax at the time, though. And I get why people would want to lynch her. He kind of just throws shade on Vax. 2051: Kind of hypocritical towards Vax (although once again, hypocrisy isn't really a scumtell). He throws more shade at Cheeky that both serves to throw her down as a scumread and to discredit her. He then throws in a little snippet about why he's apathetic and 'wow no one listens to me' even though he hasn't really been around to push his scumreads or put in a lot of effort to do so. 2060, 2063, 2065, 2069, 2072, 2079, 2080, 2083, 2230: These are Hyung's interactions with LLD (I skipped a few, not apologizing). 2060 gives off the impression that he did look to see what she's done, but the posts after don't really give a semblance of him trying to sort her or understand her. He 180's his read in the span of 2 posts (2069 and 2072), and the only difference is that LLD claimed to know something that she would have known immediately upon replacing in (that we almost lynched AA9). I did point out that LLD would know this, but Hyung never made any sort of reaction regarding it, so dunno. 2338: Hyung votes Vecna. I do not dislike this post in any way. But I also did not love the Vecna wagon. I still do not think Vecna had a useful role for scum to have, and the lack of any abilities I think would be useful to the scumteam makes me think he would have been an acceptable sacrifice for the scumteam. The Vecna wagon also happened very fast, whereas we had incredible issues pushing any other wagons through. Hyung was also the counterwagon.
Day 2
2492:This is his first post Day 2. I do think that scum would avoid the NSG wagon on Day 2 if NSG is town and this was a bad wagon. He calls the NSG wagon a bad wagon, but at the same time hedges on it ('she has a town reaction but she makes sense as the nightkill'). There is nothing that leads me to believe that he should have been avoiding that wagon or reacting to it in the way he did here. Granted I had a similar impression regarding the NSG wagon in my next post, but I explained that (I didn't like the way people were saying she was townish but had to be the lynch) and I'm a BULLETPROOF (so I didn't think it was a hard guilty anyway). 2858: Whiteknighting? 2859: I don't really have an issue with the Titus accusation. The comment regarding NSG here feels very out of place. If he thinks she's town, then why say she's the optimal lynch? It's like he's subtly trying to push the wagon through without attaching his name to it. The Reck thing is also odd. If he prefers Reck instead of Titus, why not just vote Reck? He claims it's because he doesn't think it would get support, but who cares? I unapologetically stole these thoughts from Titus, so credit to her here. 2920: Flyby comment shading the [NSG wagon?]. I'm actually not sure what he's shading, but I don't like this post since there isn't really any clarification and it's not like he's pushing against anything. He's actually saying the NSG wagon is an optimal lynch while avoiding it at the same time. 2921, 2922, 2923: He points out that Reck is scummy...but doesn't actually go into why this is the case. Instead he avoids it and reverts back to apathy.
He has not posted yet today (unless he did so as I was making this post, in which case I didn't read any of those posts that I missed).
In post 3417, xRECKONERx wrote:hyung has lurkedalot anyway and his d2 posting wasnt thrilling
After your tone change on an NSG wagon?
@NSG why do you town read Reck?
because ive realized the "imma vote titus but want reck really" stuff was gross enough to surpass my initial early game townposting read on him
we're in d3 now
although now that ive reminded myself of that, it feels icky.
i still think nsg needs to die before lylo and that's my biggest hangup honestly.
i think i would probably switch my vote to penguin right now if i wasn't so concerned with nsg going deep.
like REGARDLESS OF NSG'S ALIGNMENT (which I'm waffling on, honestly) nsg being alive in an endgame situation makes everything shitty unless we have the perfect flips to explain what happened n1 with pine
