Newbie 2038: Elements [Game Over]

[safebet222]

Townhunt/POE is how I usually play, unless I get a really strong scumread.

This... this thing that 72 has about how convinced he is that there is only one correct way to go about the game is pinging me.

[Mizzytastic]

Townhunt/POE is how I usually play, unless I get a really strong scumread.

This... this thing that 72 has about how convinced he is that there is only one correct way to go about the game is pinging me.

It annoys me but I townread it. He's so committed. If it was a scum tactic you could pick and choose which things to find bad more specifically to push where you want, he goes after anything that moves in a way he doesn't like

[Mizzytastic]

Even after it's getting him scum read

[safebet222]

Townhunt/POE is how I usually play, unless I get a really strong scumread.

This... this thing that 72 has about how convinced he is that there is only one correct way to go about the game is pinging me.

It annoys me but I townread it. He's so committed. If it was a scum tactic you could pick and choose which things to find bad more specifically to push where you want, he goes after anything that moves in a way he doesn't like

Yeah, but what about the TSTBS tactic? Not possible nor likely here?

[safebet222]

I still think sorting muh is the my preferred play... again deadline looms... and I don't really give 2 shits who scumreads me for it... I'll jump on a wagon I don't like whenever I feel that muh's push isn't going anywhere because I'm pretty sure not flipping anyone is worse. And that time is coming soon.

[Mizzytastic]

Townhunt/POE is how I usually play, unless I get a really strong scumread.

This... this thing that 72 has about how convinced he is that there is only one correct way to go about the game is pinging me.

It annoys me but I townread it. He's so committed. If it was a scum tactic you could pick and choose which things to find bad more specifically to push where you want, he goes after anything that moves in a way he doesn't like

Yeah, but what about the TSTBS tactic? Not possible nor likely here?

Definitely possible. WIFOM based play is always possible and he is using it as a defense, not just letting it passively sit there. I wouldn't say likely cos other than potentially pocketing me all its gotten scum!72 is negative attention.

[JDye]

1) Why is me switching tenses scummy. Please use posts that only existed at the time of you making your initial response and show your working out. 5 marks.

2) Why was my game solve towny enough for you to stop reading me as top scum (enough to move me into a scumlean by your very own read list) but simultaneously the reason for for you to scum read me as your answer for question 1. Working out appreciated. 5 marks.

I'm tunneling at this point but there's no chance of me correcting that at this point without these questions being answered. If 72 really cannot understand why his repeated dodging of these questions that ask him to justify his read comes across as scummy to me then he's even less self aware than I though.

[JDye]

Wrt to the replacements... I've got to read their entrances fully (watching the rugby right now) but I have a few thoughts.For FF I'm not sure I like them skipping over the 72vMe situation (although it seems like they might not have finished their catch-up). As it is it looks like they're not taking a side and believe it to be TvT. Would be interested in knowing why they think that.

As for Spangled, I'm conflicted there. I like that they're agreeing with me, but since the rest of the group doesn't seem to be doing so, it does leave me thinking that 1) I'm wrong and/or 2) I'm being pocketed by Spangled. There's just a little too much overlap between our reads there. Not enough for me to scum read them, just enough to make me wary.

Sibcw other people aren't agreeing with me I do think I could be wrong wrt 72 but that's not something I'm particularly worried about right now. Given that at no point (outside of egix and c4 saying 72 was reaching in their initial read) has anyone actually tried to analyse the 72vMe situation, I'm putting the lack of agreement down to apathy. If someone wants to actually say why they think my read is wrong, I welcome it. Tell me why 72s intial read wasn't awful, their dodging wasn't as scummy as I think it is and why the faulty logic of their attempted response isn't suspicious.

Once England win I'll try to give a proper response to the entrances and the nteract with others in what little is left of the day. I know I've been focused on them all day and haven't really xontiebyred out side of that.

[JDye]

Actually, just realised Spangled replaced in for Cyl. Well then, definite sus on the mindmelding.

On mobile so sorry for spelling mistakes and shitty formatting.

[JDye]

Just want to mention that faking scumhunting is hard and that even experienced agers may use bad logic attempt to justify a read.

In my last game an SE with 10 years of experience said something with similarly awful logic to 72's initial read and attempted response. I called them out on it and then let it slide. I went on to lose Elo to them. Not going to let this slide until I get a response that doesn't rely on a post that didn't exist at the time of the initial read.

There's only town motiviation in answering the questions. There's none in dodging them for 300 posts.

[fferyllt]

Referring to safebet in 3rd person, is like you are speaking to the rest of town, pointing out an inconsistency of Safebet

Then you switch to talking to safebet directly, saying you dont think he should be doing a game solve at this stage, and then you come out with your own full game solve several posts later.

Your first point doesn't resonate at all. I do this kind of focus switch frequently. It happens and I don't think it's indicative of a scum mindset all.

Your second point does resonate a little.

[JDye]

Your second point does resonate a little.

For that second point they bring up a post that wasn't made at the time of their "this rings alarm bells". This isn't a justification of that post respite 72 pretending it is.

Also, they say the find my game solve scummy because I said that safebet shouldn't do it but they also town read me a little from my game solve (for some reason). Seems to be inconsistencies in what they say.

[fferyllt]

I'm kinda tempted to just vote in JDye/72 right now. This doesn't feel TvT to me, I already think they are likely the scum on the AGP wagon, and I'm kinda feeling more and more that cyl and muh are both town, especially cyl.

Too many people look scummy this game >.<


Pedit: did you get any results from your reaction test?

I think this is the first post that I really haven't liked from Mizzy.

[fferyllt]

Your second point does resonate a little.

For that second point they bring up a post that wasn't made at the time of their "this rings alarm bells". This isn't a justification of that post respite 72 pretending it is.

Also, they say the find my game solve scummy because I said that safebet shouldn't do it but they also town read me a little from my game solve (for some reason). Seems to be inconsistencies in what they say.

Yeah, I realized there's a time gap and that it wasn't part of the basis of his original stance. The observation itself resonated in that I can see someone jumping on it.

Not particularly relevant to this, but the parts of the thread that move fast vs slowly look similar if I don't pay attention to time stamps, unless it's obviously a lot of in the moment back and forth.

[fferyllt]

Caught up!

Town

Mizzy's stances come off hesitant, but it's easy to follow her trajectory on her reads. She's also concerned about the game's health and I wonder if that's something that she carries well in her scum games, but I don't have time to meta and that wouldn't be a top priority if I did.

72 would be more of a meta priority because his playstyle in this game would work for scum. I just think his pushes would go in different places. The heavy pushes often followed up with a post about players he'd compromise-vote on make me a little nervous. I dunno why putting percentages on scum likelihood bug me as much as the do. 72's percentage post on JDye, beyond that squick, do indicate that his read isn't binary. There is some nuance even though he's tunneling.

JDye - I was predisposed to like this slot from about page 2 because I really like the original occupant's posts. Nothing AI to it. I spectated JDye's first game. I feel like the effort to apply lessons learned from that game are genuine and are probably town-indicative. This may be a me-problem because I'm not filtering out enough of the mutual tunnel, but I feel like JDye hasn't put as much effort into sorting other players as Day 2 has progressed.

Lean Town

egix is the player I'm most familiar with, which isn't saying a whole lot! He was town in a recent newbie game that I modded and his play looks very similar here. I feel like his playstyle would work ok in both alignments, and with more time I want to meta dive and see if the little flickers of humor and annoyance (mostly via emotes) I'm seeing here also show up in his scum game.

Safebet - I smile EVERY TIME I see this avatar. I liked his initial catchup post, and agreed with it more at that point in my readthrough than I do at this point. He's asked a lot of questions given his overall content that felt relevant to what was going on at his active times in the thread. One post that pinged, although it turned out to be justified, was this comment to Gambling Pig.

Welp, Looks like I'm a goner. I'm vanilla townie. Hopefully my lynching will give you all the info you need to make better choices tomorrow.

Good luck town.

While you're around, care to give us any thoughts on the game?

Seemed harsh, and the use of "us" there pinged. In general, I see that kind of phrasing more often from scum than town. Later posts by other players were more harsh, but by then it looked like Gambling Pig wasn't going to get much in the way of last thoughts into the game threads.

I thought I'd want to do a full reads list when I started, but, I want to run my fingers through some isos before I try to gather thoughts on the POEs.

[safebet222]

Safebet - I smile EVERY TIME I see this avatar.

Then you kniw thr answer is ALWAYS 42.

[safebet222]

Safebet - I smile EVERY TIME I see this avatar.

Then you know the answer is ALWAYS 42.

Fixed the post.

[fferyllt]

Wow. Jeez. I'm sorry, fferyllt, I am way too tired to consider your thoughts over the last few pages, or even make a real comment.

I didn't have the bandwidth for your catch-up either, so no worries.

I also didn't want my readthrough thoughts to be influenced by yours.

[fferyllt]

Safebet - I smile EVERY TIME I see this avatar.

Then you know the answer is ALWAYS 42.

Fixed the post.

And I always carry a towel!

[Egix96]

Egix, don't think Spangled is happening, where you at between muh, 72 and fferyllt?

VOTE: 72offsuit

Ffery is the lhf that 72 is pushing in an effort to save himself. I'm not interested in yeeting muh any more.

[Egix96]

Wow. Jeez. I'm sorry, fferyllt, I am way too tired to consider your thoughts over the last few pages, or even make a real comment. Actually, the last four or five pages I read but didn't really think about terribly much; I'm tired and most of it is god-awful 72-JD spat. However, for most of the other pages, I read and commented, so here is a catch-up part 2:

Spoiler: catch-up part 2, electric boogaloo

I like 255, I can definitely feel the lack of 'meshedness' so far.

72, you're so jumpy, dude. You seem to build cases out of single posts repeatedly; 266 is one.

And, then, see, right after that 72 went for c4; 276 and 277.

My wagons in order:

72
Muh
Apig

In the meantime let's give folks an even narrower choice.

UNVOTE: 72offsuit VOTE: muh316

Uh these two posts together are really weird. If 72's your highest priority, why switch to muh?

Safebet read muh as neutral but now they're their second favourite elim candidate? What's muh done to move them from neutral to above Pig for an elim? If you think it's 72/muh (don't really think we should be looking at game solves a this point) why not keep your vote on 72?

Fair question...I only have one scum read... I've had my vote there for the better part of 3 days... The wagon isn't going anywhere today... Sometimes you don't get what you want. We have to get moving so I have a choice of 3 other wagons, time for option 2. Even a scum!72off recognizes that.

The question is why would you insist on leaving your vote somewhere that isn't providing pressure to move the game forward?

This isn't really how it works; if you have a scumread and people aren't voting for them, fight to convince the town that you're right. Don't just move off somewhere else. Yes you didn't have a ton of time but goodness you really weren't doing anything to move the 72 wagon forward.

305 echoes my thoughts there.

I've spent the better part of two hours looking over the game... It's time for bed...

I really liked what Egix has brought since Sunday afternoon. I'm getting town vibes from him. I really like the fact that he saw the 72off had so many scum leans. I don't get it either. I disagree with his cyl read however mainly because I wouldn't expect cyl to have any instincts as she seems to be brand new to forum Mafia. Maybe I'm off on that point... thoughts Egix?

Cyl - hated her last post... but I still think that it comes from not knowing how to respond than some sort of scumplay. The lurking over the last few days is annoying and I completely understand why people are on her wagon.

I'm hoping to get some clarity on which of the viable wagons is best...

I don't really see how seeing that someone has lots of scumleans is AI. All it takes is counting.

315; oh my goodness get your act together 72, dude. You must have called half the playerlist scum by now, with a great deal of confidence on most of those of calls.
Dude.
You find scum everywhere you look.
This is looking worse and worse; your progression from each read to the next is next to nothing.

I'll case 72, once I'm done reading. I'd do it now, but it could be that some incredible remark he makes in the next few hundred posts totally flips my view of him, or he explains all of his progression in one massively detailed post, or something like that, so I'll wait 'til I'm done.

And 316 has nothing of substance.
And 317 fails to answer to the point JDye brings up (he implies that he re-read and used new information, but doesn't say what it is!), and just moves against him in thoroughly baseless, evidence-less pushing.

320 from JDye hits the nail on the head, but it fails to take into account, too, the progression (or lack thereof) of 72's reads; he seems just to jump from one scumread to another, and push that until he finds a new one.

I don't like that JDye doesn't, then, push 72 as scum, but I'm fairly sure on him being town because of how his thoughts on 72 have aligned with mine, and his catch-up, among other things.

Ah I don't like 336. I mean, it could be playstyle difference, and a few people have done it, IIRC, but why would you not push for your scumread? Yes, compromise lynches are reasonable, but you should fight as long as possible to get your wagon through.

I kind of can't blame the town for the pig's death; I mean, 348, 'enjoy the egg on your face'? really?

Woah but 352 is out of the blue. Jeez.

366 is just weird; why, exactly, would you have one scum on muh and one on the pig? According to whom?
(ooh, look at me; the objective case)
I mean, scum on town lynches is often true, but why can't you have two scum on pig?
Why any scum on muh?

Jailed players are slightly more likely to be scum who attempted a kill, rather than town who were targeted.

Why?

Good lord 72. 419 just hurts me. Is this the sixth person you've called scum?
You've pushed votes, but you have never, ever, backed down from a vote, and said 'no I was wrong here's why', you've just pushed slot after slot. You have no progression.

I don't see your points here; 'trying to figure out the game', yes, it's vague, but have you asked him to explain it? Question first, please shoot later.
As to him having two of your scumreads in common, but then putting you above cyl — that means so little. That's not scummy; people can share reads with each other but still suspect each other. I mean, there's only so many people here, and your view on someone is all but binary, scum vs. town, so surely people who think each other are scum are bound to agree on some points.

And then you say that you can 'really vibe' with 324, but then say that town!c4 has 'pretty slim pickings'.

And then you vote for JDye in 428. Man.

Man and then he jumps in 445, through the slimmest 'I can see this one post coming from a town!JDye', right after pressure is put on him by, guess, who, JDye.
And his justification for switching is, 'c4's case against Egix doesn't make sense to me'... Dude, if I voted for everyone who made a case that I didn't understand, I'd be be playing... wait... exactly like you...
The amount of unreasoned flip-flopping.

And then 447... man...

449; safebet sees it, though he doesn't push it.

I get Mizzy's thoughts on 72 in 451, but at the same time, all his activity has been so scummy. Sometimes scum effort, even when they don't need to; store up for the lean years, really.

I agree with 455, that's what I've said. It's such a small reason to change.

He is putting effort in though. Not to defend himself either but to try and produce reads. And a decent part of the player list has him as scummy and it's not changed his playstyle so I don't think he's doing it to get people to think he's town - if it is scum!72 I'm the only one he's really pocketed with it and he'd have found it easier if he didn't scum read over half the player list and hadn't been so hyperbolic. This game is dead, he doesn't need to produce that much text to look like he's trying to contribute.

Eh, yeah, but everything he posts is crap and he dodges actual questions put to him. Like, sure, plenty suspect him but do you see many votes on him yet? Not really.

And JDye has it right again in 458; 72 backs straight off when pressure is put on him, and just finds someone else to tunnel for a few posts.

Yeah, 463 is definitely a consideration; just because he doesn't need to effort so much doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't.
People aren't always logical.

Noone has even bothered to comment on my theory of town vs town wagons = low activity from scum on day one.

Barely anyone has given 2 shits about my ISOs.

He is efforting so he is scum, herp derp. Gee im a good scumhunter.

No one's bothered about your ISOs because they blatantly contradict things you've said before.

Stating someone's cases arent groundbreaking actually suggests you know im town, otherwise you would just say my cases are FALSE rather than UNCONVINCING

These semantics hurt me.

@72 what moved JDye temporarily from lockscum to scum read for you, before you moved him back?

Also if you liked my response to your initial push on my why didn't you act that way at the time?

He was always a scumread. Noone is strong scum day 1, despite what i write.

Yeah, that's the key thing here. You've called everyone strong scum, and plenty on day 1. You made those reads, and then you just... switched them. You never explained why you moved away from those cases, you just... jumped. You're not doing anything.

Will probably look in more detail when I can be bothered to get on desktop and once I've got the two assignments due tomorrow finished.

Since I've at least started to respond to your ISO diving which you seemed very eager for me to do, perhaps you could answer my questions?

I have ZERO incentive to do this.

You are making ZERO effort to consider the possibility of !townMe and are not even remotely interested in looking for a second "scumread".

Which points to !scumyou 70% of the time and useless town the reamining 30% of the time

He's not putting effort into considering town!you because, a) he's confident you're scum because of all your baseless pushes and jumping, and, b) a lot of his time is taken up by responding to random, irrelevant crap from you.

Cyl and Muh are

light townleans

who have

contributed next to nothing to this game.

Muh is scummier than cyl.

Do I smell... an oxymoron?

Damn straight you do.

Gah, I'm sorry I sound so bitter and generally insulting about 72. Just his every post seems so illogical and insulting, and I'm annoyed at the amount of crap that flows forth. I'm mostly annoyed that I have to read it, really; these last few pages have been awful.

In 559 I like that Mizzy considers something they were thinking about before; they talked about the time frame, and then realised, 'wait maybe not', and this post is the product of them thinking that through.

However

, I don't really see the point they're making about muh. I might reread the bit they're talking about in day one, but right now I just can't remember what went down.

Bit of a TL;DR — 72's baseless movement from vote to vote, each time so confident but then backing down when challenged, his inability to answer real questions about his posts and justify them, and his lack of progression from read to read, his constant self-contradiction... Scum, or town that scum won't kill and that I would

hate

in LyLo.
VOTE: 72offsuit

We have 16 hours, and 72 has no defense. His lack of progression I just keep coming back to again and again.

I am too tired to keep thinking about this game. I don't have the energy left to ISO him, but I have something to do early tomorrow that will last for several hours, and I'm afraid, has priority over mafia; I probably won't be around for the rest of this day. Please consider what me and JDye have said about 72, his complete lack of progression and complete lack of justification. True, he may have efforted, but very little he's said has been worth much. So much flip-flopping, so much flailing, especially, at the end towards JD. This isn't town. Look over him yourself; see how little he's said that someone else hasn't or that he hasn't later contradicted. Look at how he backs down when challenged on a read.

Goodnight.

No offense, but this is easily one of the most garbage cases against someone I've yet to encounter.

HYPOTHETICAL:
You register for a newbie game, either be it from the start or replacing in.
You notice: the game has ZERO ACTIVITY, one of the LEAST ACTIVE GAMES in the newbie queue.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
so what does good pro-town TOWN do:

1) Make AGGRESSIVE plays to EVOKE OTHERS to TAKE A STANCE

2) there is SO LITTLE CONTENT and yet you expect confidence and SCUMREAD VOTE SWTICHING
town DO NOT KNOW who scum is.

If anything vote switching is a TOWN TELL.

Scum theatre...

[fferyllt]

I feel like some of my questions are going to be buried in walls, so I'm going to start asking some separately.

Safebet, in your post 218 you said something about checking your confbias on 72 midway through the catch-up and then ended the post voting him. This is pretty far back in game time, but I'd still like to know if that was a joke, or if were questioning yourself about the strength/accuracy of your read.

It wasn't a joke. I was truly questioning myself. I couldn't beleive so much of what he did was pinging me. I was really hoping to sort him out... He was my first scumread. Not so sure anymore after this latest spat with JDye. I'm inclined to think its TvT. Any thoughts on that?

It's probably clear from my townlist that I also think it's probably TvT. I'm not going to get bet the farm level reads in a 24 hour mad dash, but 72 is a strong townread. JDye reminds me of some long ago games where I played up my baseline paranoia on some players (Hi Cabd) to stratospheric levels when I was scum against them. It's not the same - there's no one in this game who burned him to the ground in a prior game, but there's this slight niggle in my head that asks if he's playing up a entirely rational level of paranoia here after being burned by Notsci in the other game. To me, there's no comparison in playstyles, at least in this game.

[fferyllt]

Ffery is the lhf

I don't think I have ever been called lhf in a mafia game.

[Egix96]

Ffery is the lhf

I don't think I have ever been called lhf in a mafia game.

I meant your slot as a whole, really. Your predecessor ranked low in the postcounts and ended up going awol.

[safebet222]

Egix, don't think Spangled is happening, where you at between muh, 72 and fferyllt?

VOTE: 72offsuit

Ffery is the lhf that 72 is pushing in an effort to save himself. I'm not interested in yeeting muh any more.

Oh boy...here we go again, dueling wagons with hours left... neither of them proper options imo.

Quite frankly... muh isn't going to contribute a damned thing to the game until we force him to...

Out of the three viable wagons (of course this is my opinion that there are three right now) if FF or 72 (or both) is scum, don't you think we have a better chance of catching them without a muh that does the bare minimum? There is still time to sort him, if he's listening...