Cold War Mafia - GAME OVER!!

[Lowell]

Llama is right. THere's nothing to be gained by playing this question game. And I think setup discussion only aids scum.

vote ghost

. The meta-talk, the setup-talk, take your pick.

[julienvonwolfe]

I find myself agreeing with EGL here, though I don't think he(? sorry, guessing) goes far enough:

My pm from mod stating my role also made it rather clear, as it was a town pm, that there is probably town-aligned players of different nationalities (ie: people of other nationalities who only want peace, which makes sense thematically)

I find it interesting you explicitly state the PM you got was a town PM. It seems like subliminal messaging or something.

Anyway, my role PM didn't explicitly state that there are town aligned players of different nationalities. Town role PMs could be different in that some might explicitly state this and some might not.

I do find you have a point though on PoisonIvy thinking that it's America vs. Soviets due to the town win condition saying to eliminate threats against peace.

I'm going to maintain differing levels of skepticism that either of you have received pro-town roles, with a higher level of skepticism toward PoisinIvy than you. I would, however, like to point out I didn't like your three short posts in response to RedCoyote voting for you. They seemed defensive.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: PoisonIvy

FoS: DavidParker

My PM doesn't explicitly state whether or not there are town aligned players of different nationalities, either. Moreover, I don't see why other role PMs should be any different since the rules regarding nationality and alignment are in the first post, or so, and they are clearly different concepts - something David doesn't seem to quite grasp, by his use of 'probably'. My feeling then, is that David is bullshitting in grand style.

As such: VOTE: DavidParker


---

Others:

RQS is useless and tends to delay scumhunting in my experience. It also tends to be longer than RVS which provides more fluff. I agree with Llama that it just tends to produce faketells that scum can run with.

Vote: Furcolow

Okay; did you think we were still in the RQS or even the RVS?

Hey julien; long time, no see, here's a vote for old time's sake.

Vote: julienvonwolfe

Hi!

And finally, as for PoisonIvy... meh. Small scummy tell maybe, and everyone jumping on because it's early game. It'll be more interesting to look back on, once we have some context, though.

[Furcolow]

PoisonIvy posts endless walls of fluff as town
I have not seen that
I have seen the icy-hearted irrationality of a cold-blooded-killer

[smargaret]

That post from Furc is just bad. First, while town could gain some information from speculating on the setup at this point in the game, there is no way that town gains more information than scum does. Giving scum information is only good if you give town more information.

Then let's look at the Ivy vote. Ivy is scum because she hasn't posted a wall of text yet - on page 3, when the game has been open for less than 24 hours. Leaving validity of meta arguments aside, it is unreasonable to expect a wall at this point in the game. Furthermore,

saying

that the lack of a wall post is the motivation behind your vote means that if Ivy is scum, all she has to do is manufacture a wall post and she'll be cleared as town in Furc's view.

Consider also this snippet from Furc's wall:

I am suspicious of LlamaFluff for his black/white reaction to the RQS. Only siths deal in absolutes, kind of thing. The townie reaction, in my opinion, is more along the lines of what Scott Brosius said. He was confused, wishy-washy on it, and then voted me.

So you, as town presumably, posted something to which the townie reaction is to vote you? How is that pro-town? Hint: It's not.

UNVOTE: jmj
VOTE: Furc

[LlamaFluff]

You don't see town-motivation from trying to game the setup?
Tell me this, also: Do you expect I would have collaborated with my scumbuddies, if i had any, before posting?
because I posted immediately.

You dont see how it will help scum more then town? The game is way to closed to try and "game the setup". Moreso then regular games given how ambiguous it is.

Also scum have daytalk? Never knew scum could daytalk...

I am suspicious of LlamaFluff for his black/white reaction to the RQS. Only siths deal in absolutes, kind of thing. The townie reaction, in my opinion, is more along the lines of what Scott Brosius said. He was confused, wishy-washy on it, and then voted me.

Hah... im a very black and white person in reads. Clarity is key. You are seriously arguing that being solid on a reaction is scummier then fence sitting?

I throught it would be more then a few pages before I figured out why you were a policy lynch of so many people.

[julienvonwolfe]

EBWOP, ninja'd many times: I'll add that I considered that EGL may have been soft-bussing David (is that a mafia term? Can I make it up? Somebody else can put it in the wiki for me if so), as I generally don't like FOSes when they follow a hefty case like that EGL made. However, bussing seems impossible in light of the comparison of role PMs; it would seem to only allow the possibility of these two being mafia in possession of a townie role PM and deciding, before the game, to bus. And that would be stupid.

[Furcolow]

You don't see town-motivation from trying to game the setup?
Tell me this, also: Do you expect I would have collaborated with my scumbuddies, if i had any, before posting?
because I posted immediately.

You dont see how it will help scum more then town? The game is way to closed to try and "game the setup". Moreso then regular games given how ambiguous it is.

Also scum have daytalk? Never knew scum could daytalk...

I am suspicious of LlamaFluff for his black/white reaction to the RQS. Only siths deal in absolutes, kind of thing. The townie reaction, in my opinion, is more along the lines of what Scott Brosius said. He was confused, wishy-washy on it, and then voted me.

Hah... im a very black and white person in reads. Clarity is key. You are seriously arguing that being solid on a reaction is scummier then fence sitting?

I throught it would be more then a few pages before I figured out why you were a policy lynch of so many people.

I'm a policy lynch because I disagree with you? Thanks for the ad hominem, bro.
Not.

Anyways, I feel like I am always in the dark on MafiaScum as to what the implied setups are. I wasn't sure how closed/open it was, and I wanted to be in the loop.

One more town-aligned-player being conscious is pro-town, and I was trying to achieve consciousness.

[DavidParker]

i agree with llama that setup discussion is more likely to help scum than town.

However, my point about theme games having more setup/flavor discussion is merely the curiosity factor. Players are playing games for fun, and as a result there will be some discussion born from setup/flavor, even if it isn't necessarily going to benefit town :/

[smargaret]

Furc, I'd like to hear why you assume scum have daytalk. It hasn't been my experience that it's the norm here. And how could you not know how closed/open the setup is?

[LlamaFluff]

I'm a policy lynch because I disagree with you? Thanks for the ad hominem, bro.
Not.

Thanks for the correct representing of what I said bro.
Not.

I am getting annoyed that you are basically OMGUSing what I said because I attacked you with conviction. Other people are apparently not scummy because they sounded very unsure of themselves, while when I say "fur is scum" you say im scum for it. That is what is not making sense, and where the comment came from.

Anyways, I feel like I am always in the dark on MafiaScum as to what the implied setups are. I wasn't sure how closed/open it was, and I wanted to be in the loop

Setups are different from game to game... unless there is a mechanic that begs for a certain role to exist, the only hints tend to come from PRs and role wording. When you start getting into the skinny of the setup early, its very easy to tell who has inside role information and who doesnt, both scum and town PRs have some.

You also ignored my comment on you apparently having daytalk. Flat out you say that you posted immediately instead of confiring with your partners, which would mean that scum has daytalk to be able to confer, yet... I cant remember anything saying scum has daytalk.

[Furcolow]

I'm a policy lynch because I disagree with you? Thanks for the ad hominem, bro.
Not.

Thanks for the correct representing of what I said bro.
Not.

I am getting annoyed that you are basically OMGUSing what I said because I attacked you with conviction. Other people are apparently not scummy because they sounded very unsure of themselves, while when I say "fur is scum" you say im scum for it. That is what is not making sense, and where the comment came from.

Anyways, I feel like I am always in the dark on MafiaScum as to what the implied setups are. I wasn't sure how closed/open it was, and I wanted to be in the loop

Setups are different from game to game... unless there is a mechanic that begs for a certain role to exist, the only hints tend to come from PRs and role wording. When you start getting into the skinny of the setup early, its very easy to tell who has inside role information and who doesnt, both scum and town PRs have some.

You also ignored my comment on you apparently having daytalk. Flat out you say that you posted immediately instead of confiring with your partners, which would mean that scum has daytalk to be able to confer, yet... I cant remember anything saying scum has daytalk.

um, you're the one misrepresenting. I didn't say you're scum because you said I'm scum, I said you're probably scum because of your direct NO to the RQS. I haven't ever seen someone simply refuse to talk casually. You must be some sort of social pariah of a slot.

Well, I assumed they have daytalk. I forgot I even said that, but I won't backtrack on it. All I was saying was that I figured I would wait on some coaching, regardless of whether or not it came in-thread or out, if I was scum.

I didn't do that.

[smargaret]

So basically, you WIFOM'd your way out of one corner and into another. And given the stance you've previously taken on ad hom attacks, I'm surprised you'd call someone a social pariah.

Now, how about you respond to my first post?

[Furcolow]

That post from Furc is just bad. First, while town could gain some information from speculating on the setup at this point in the game, there is no way that town gains more information than scum does. Giving scum information is only good if you give town more information.

Then let's look at the Ivy vote. Ivy is scum because she hasn't posted a wall of text yet - on page 3, when the game has been open for less than 24 hours. Leaving validity of meta arguments aside, it is unreasonable to expect a wall at this point in the game. Furthermore,

saying

that the lack of a wall post is the motivation behind your vote means that if Ivy is scum, all she has to do is manufacture a wall post and she'll be cleared as town in Furc's view.

Consider also this snippet from Furc's wall:

I am suspicious of LlamaFluff for his black/white reaction to the RQS. Only siths deal in absolutes, kind of thing. The townie reaction, in my opinion, is more along the lines of what Scott Brosius said. He was confused, wishy-washy on it, and then voted me.

So you, as town presumably, posted something to which the townie reaction is to vote you? How is that pro-town? Hint: It's not.

UNVOTE: jmj
VOTE: Furc

ok
1) I disagree:
a) there are more town
b) therefore, town can learn more collectively

2) my meta argument is valid, and is employable.
a) she has walled this early into a game as town, and is not doing that
b) if she walls as scum, to "counter" this, she is just leaving herself open to slip up more
c) it is harder for scum to fake being town than town because town are obv town to theirselves

3) his townie reaction to vote me is different from the point i was trying to make (scott's reaction)
he would have voted me regardless of whether or not I posted the RQS
I didn't know "RQS was scummy", and I feel like it leads to more discussion and wall-style-play which is pro-town

[Furcolow]

So basically, you WIFOM'd your way out of one corner and into another. And given the stance you've previously taken on ad hom attacks, I'm surprised you'd call someone a social pariah.

Now, how about you respond to my first post?

the way i worded it was actually somewhat asking him if that is how he is in real life/on ms because that is my take on him, and why he is acting so hurt, and inactive of casualness. It's either that, or he's likely scum in my eyes. It sucks he's "suspicious" of me, and I am not really certain about him.

It is actually too early in the game for poisonivy to have this many votes on her without me hearing more from other people. A ton of people haven't even gotten involved.

unvote

for now
I am going to put my vote on the first alphabetically to have not posted.

[Furcolow]

vote: beasts of the sea

[Furcolow]

Also, Artem, in your iso is 1 post
you call my rqs a "scumslip"
how is rqs, in the first post of the game, not null?

[smargaret]

1. a. Granted
b. But I don't know who the other townies are. I don't know what they know. There is no town collective of knowledge. On the other hand, the scum presumably do know each other and, if they weren't able to share the information they got from their role PMs in pre-game, will do so tonight. Thus, scum have more setup knowledge from town and can gain more from setup speculation than any individual townie. Since the townies can't get together and talk, you have to evaluate the information gained by town on an individual basis - in other words, scum gains more.

2. I said I wasn't going to get into meta validity arguments with you. General mafia theory discussions in the middle of a game aren't particularly productive and tend to lead to "He believes x, x is anti-town, he's scum" reasoning.
a. Irrelevant.
b. Or the slips will be hidden in the wall and people will skim through a wall and miss them. Or she's just a competent scum player.
c. Um, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying - you of all people - that townies never do things that look scummy?

3. Again, I'm not sure what you're saying, but walls are not pro-town unless they're necessary (and at this point in the game, they're not). They encourage skimming and make it harder to get invested and interested in a game. Furthermore, this doesn't address how you deliberately provoked someone to vote you - and there is no universe in which that is pro-town.

Now, unvoting and random voting when we're clearly out of RVS not only sets us back, but it goes against your stated policy that RVS is counterproductive and it means you're not actually voting for someone you believe to be scum. Again, anti-town. Furthermore, if I counted right, Ivy had 9 votes on her and was at L-4. That's too many votes?

[ThAdmiral]

I'm not CERTAIN you are scum, though, and I have meta on PI

She walls as town, and I have yet to see a wall from her
until I see a good, solid, town wall from her, I will be voting her

vote: pi

Well don't tell her how to look town if she is indeed scum.

My PM doesn't explicitly state whether or not there are town aligned players of different nationalities, either. Moreover, I don't see why other role PMs should be any different since the rules regarding nationality and alignment are in the first post, or so, and they are clearly different concepts - something David doesn't seem to quite grasp, by his use of 'probably'. My feeling then, is that David is bullshitting in grand style.

As such: VOTE: DavidParker

I disagree quite strongly. I have dp marked as town.

Then let's look at the Ivy vote. Ivy is scum because she hasn't posted a wall of text yet - on page 3, when the game has been open for less than 24 hours. Leaving validity of meta arguments aside, it is unreasonable to expect a wall at this point in the game. Furthermore,

saying

that the lack of a wall post is the motivation behind your vote means that if Ivy is scum, all she has to do is manufacture a wall post and she'll be cleared as town in Furc's view.

This is truth.

Consider also this snippet from Furc's wall:

I am suspicious of LlamaFluff for his black/white reaction to the RQS. Only siths deal in absolutes, kind of thing. The townie reaction, in my opinion, is more along the lines of what Scott Brosius said. He was confused, wishy-washy on it, and then voted me.

So you, as town presumably, posted something to which the townie reaction is to vote you? How is that pro-town? Hint: It's not.

Come on, seriously.

I throught it would be more then a few pages before I figured out why you were a policy lynch of so many people.

I think he's doing alright tbh.
I've seen him play a lot worse than this, and that is why he is a policy lynch to a lot of people.

[DavidParker]

I've seen nothing that shows Furc is "policy lynch worthy", at least he's putting the effort into making coherent posts with arguments, even if they aren't always sound. I much prefer that to the shottys and andrews.

@Julien: I don't quite see what you are arguing.. I attacked someone for saying that "town=us, soviet=scum" more or less, and i responded by saying there is most likely town allied players of both nationalities, i can't confirm this, but the mod game info suggests there is, as does my PM to a certain extent imply certain things without explicity stating them (hence I use probably). If I didn't believe what you are saying I'm "bullshitting in grand style", then why would I attack someone using this as my argument?? This is the central idea built behind my vote on poisonivy, and you are claiming I wasn't convincing enough because I used "probably".. If i didn't believe it why on earth would I have voted/pushed poison ivy's wagon?

[LimMePls]

Hm, the problem with the ivy wagon is that as scum her PM should have her against peaceful players, not against Americans or soviets so her assuming that the set-up is Americans vs soviets makes me honestly think she just didn't read it all that closely

Look at the rules post, though:

[4] A possible mafia win condition is: "You win when only Soviet players remain alive or nothing can prevent this"

Well I think that was an example, the actual win cons (unless there are various non-conflicting ones which doesn't make a lot of sense) are about peace and war, not nationality.

Really? Is that what the actual scum win conditions are?

[Beasts of the Sea]

Expect limited activity from me on the weekends.

OMG furcolow is in this game? I highly recommend a lynch and that all he says should be taken with an allhelping almighty help of salt.. Should any lynch be available for furcolow that he should be lynched town or scum. And i am being serious.

But because im not rude.
1) I started mafia on a site called "golivewire" with a few others. Mafiascum was mentioned and so i signed up.
2.) I play better as town.
3.) Having played a cold war game on golivewire, im going to guess that a) its USA vs. Soviets/Russians. And there is a miller in our midts. FYI its not me.

However, Lowell is also in this game and all games i have played with him as snow white he has always been scum. HI LOWELL!!

Vote Lowell

Uh oh. You detail why it is beneficial to lynch Furculow as town or scum and then you random vote someone based on flawed probabilities? I don't think so. You probably just want someone else to start the bandwagon and you can slide on later, right? Oh, and you are investigation immune scum? Got it.

RQS stage is scummy, I refuse to answer your questions. I seriously would like to see a furcolow wagon.

NO ONE ELSE ANSWER THE QUESTIONS

All the "slips" are fabrications of peoples imaginations

I tend to agree that most of the time RQS gives some false positives on the scum meter based on people nitpicking the authenticity and town (or not town) motivation for the questions; however, do you think there is any value later in the game once there are some flips as to who was pushing whom and the "fabricated slips"?

Llamafluff - Someone sane. I like you. But i cant tell is that because of you being sane or because you seem to share the same opinion on furcolow as me. I may join a furcolow wagon but i would like to gauge lowell first.

That didn't take long.

Joining

the Furcolow wagon that she basically initiated, and still waiting to judge Lowell (who hadn't even posted yet) based on him being scum in every game she has played with him (statistical anomaly versus game related content).

Llama, what's your take on the PoisonIvy situation?

I have no good read on it yet. If I had to guess I would put her as slightly leaning town, but its a shot in the dark more then anything else. As I already said, some of the things she said I can see both town and scum saying when they get flustered. I am fully content to push other people and watch it develop.

There are other reasons justifying her being scum besides the win condition, "who is town" and "who is scum" stuff. That being said...

For me, PoisonIvy hasn't adequately accounted for the fact she thought the game was Americans vs. Soviets as opposed to a town who wants to eliminate all threats to peace which is in the pro-town win condition.

...this is also a good point.

VOTE: PoisonIvy

Other things:
1. My spidey sense says Furculow is town.
2. Ghost Writer's reference to his wiki in post #27 is a lie. He says he's undefeated as scum, but he's clearly not.
3. smargaret is giving me town pings but that's pretty slim right now. Also, JMJ's comment "no hard feelings" earlier struck me as suspicious as well.

[jmj3000]

I made that comment jokingly in reference to Harry Potter mafia, where furc had pegged every single scum, but was unable to convince anyone. I was scum in that game, but had to replace out. Another recent game I played in, furc was killed night 0, and that harry potter game was brought up by another player as a case on me. I was town in that game. Now,

unvote

while I read everything. Also, my wiki is up to date to my knowledge.

[Artem]

Hm, the problem with the ivy wagon is that as scum her PM should have her against peaceful players, not against Americans or soviets so her assuming that the set-up is Americans vs soviets makes me honestly think she just didn't read it all that closely

So, what makes not reading a PM closely a more likely scenario than not getting that PM?

I also don't like how you're making justifications for another player.

Also, Artem, in your iso is 1 post
you call my rqs a "scumslip"
how is rqs, in the first post of the game, not null?

Scumtell, not a scumslip, and it's based on my experience: the RQS that I've seen before were almost universally pitched by scum. I guess time will tell whether the same trend holds here but as I said, I think it's a great way to appear to be doing something without actually doing much, which I think appeals to scum more.

----------------------

FoS: Beasts of the Sea

for the terrible reasons used to jump on the PoisonIvy wagon.

[GhostWriter]

Llama is right. THere's nothing to be gained by playing this question game. And I think setup discussion only aids scum.

vote ghost

. The meta-talk, the setup-talk, take your pick.

I'm sorry, I'm going to need this explained to me a bit better.

[CallMeLiam]

...