Mini 1651: One Flew Over The Monkey's Nest(Scum Wins!)

[MonkeyMan576]

Also, despite what Radiant Cowbell said, this WAS approved for balance and normalcy:).

[MonkeyMan576]

Also, if anyone was wondering about the Taly modkill, he had evidently emailed Aquanim about wanting to be "friendsies" or something like that. I felt this was an inappropriate pm to be sending someone you are in a game with, it could imply you are asking for preferential treatment, so I made the decision for modkill. The listmod said it might have been better to force replace rather than modkill, but it doesn't sound like it would have effected things either way.

Force-replacing Taly wouldn't have changed my read on the slot. I rather hoped at the time you were going to force-replace me, which would have fixed the problem.

It wasn't your fault, so it wouldn't have been fair.

[eektor]

Well, Boon was the closest to figuring out this game. Unfortunately, he looked awfully scummy during the game.

[Aquanim]

Also, despite what Radiant Cowbell said, this WAS approved for balance and normalcy:).

I imagine it wouldn't have been with a two-shot town dayvig.

It's not even that I'm sour about losing - though I am that a bit. I got completely outplayed by this scumteam, I can accept that.

It's just that I think I legit can't play town if I can't lynch the play of Mykonian and Boonskiies and KNOW it's so fucking terrible it has to flip scum. If I can't believe that, I can't push my reads hard enough, because I won't believe them enough. And if I don't have that, I can't play the game.

[eektor]

@Aqua Apparently it was Case 4 afterall.

[Elyse]

Wooo!

Gj Aqua! It was really fun playing with you. And of course great work tool and TDA!!

Monkey you did a nice job modding. I thought the setup was a little town sided but with two PRs dying before day 2 and the other killing a townie, they weren't too troublesome.

Perfect scum win!

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't understand why I'm getting hated on so much.

Pisskop, you still have yet to give a reason for your FOS out of nowhere, that you gave while you were lying about your role.

Just... why.

[MonkeyMan576]

Wooo!

Gj Aqua! It was really fun playing with you. And of course great work tool and TDA!!

Monkey you did a nice job modding. I thought the setup was a little town sided but with two PRs dying before day 2 and the other killing a townie, they weren't too troublesome.

Perfect scum win!

Scum seem to be winning a lot of games here, so I am modifying my game setups accordingly to make it more even.

[RadiantCowbells]

Also, despite what Radiant Cowbell said, this WAS approved for balance and normalcy:).

I'd like to reiterate what I said in dead thread, that I didn't actually believe the game was not balanced.

I just thought that using that as a logic for Pisskop!ConfirmedTown when he made that ridiculously scummy move was bad so I wanted to push that aside.

[pisskop]

Reaction from you. If I had known youd bite down Ida skipped that.

I had no intention of pushing you.

[RadiantCowbells]

Scum seem to be winning a lot of games here, so I am modifying my game setups accordingly to make it more even.

Wasn't a setup issue.

Pisskop missed his shot then caused me to claim with a bogus FoS out of nowhere that he couldn't substantiate at all, besides saying "oh I didn't want you alive." which justifies me claiming anyway.

Reaction from you. If I had known youd bite down Ida skipped that.

So you basically claimed scum and then got upset that I called you scum for it?

[Aquanim]

[quote="In post 1931, RadiantCowbells"]I don't understand why I'm getting hated on so much.
...[quote]
Claiming Cop day 1 was daft, I don't give a toss what Pisskop did or didn't say.

I am less mad at you than Boonskiies though. You at least played the bloody game.

[MonkeyMan576]

Randomization
1.11.Metalcyanide - VT
2.5.oddmusic - VT
3.2.mykonian - VT
4.4.InsidiousLemons - VT
5.13. Aquanim - VT
6.1.Aeronaut - VT
7.7.eektor - VT
8.12.RadiantCowbells - Cop
9.3.Taly - Roleblocker
10.6.pisskop - 1x Vig
11.9.Elyse - Godfather
12.8.TheDudeAbides Goon
13.10.toolenduso - Goon

[RadiantCowbells]

Claiming Cop day 1 was daft, I don't give a toss what Pisskop did or didn't say.

I am less mad at you than Boonskiies though. You at least played the bloody game.

So what happens when Pisskop is either legit vig and kills me like that post is obviously setting up to do.
or he's non-town and still kills me after that like that post is obviously setting up to do.

[pisskop]

You didnt have to claim. You could have kept pushing that point, or just marked it for later. You acted like you were trapped.

[eektor]

@RC Just curious, who did you investigate that first night?

[MonkeyMan576]

Day/Night Actions:
D1: Pisskop shot Oddmusic
N1: Dude kills RC, RC investigates eektor(innocent)
N2: Elyse kills pisskop

[Elyse]

Oh and I want to apologize to Taly. You didn't play that poorly at all but I knew that I would look terrible if I backed down so I had to stay on you. The only advice I would give is that you shouldn't base your reads on how people read/treat you. Case in point: mykonian and I treated you about the same and he was town; I was scum. Other than that, you were fine and had some nice contributions.

I thought eektor picked up tremendously at the end and Aqua was strong throughout.

Another thing that helped scum was that the two NKs were basically chosen for us already, preventing NK analysis. There were more factors obviously, but that is often underrated.

[MonkeyMan576]

What do you guys think about the 12 hour twilight? Good mechanic or bad mechanic?

[pisskop]

Twilight is okay. I prefer less of it. Maybe 1 or 2 hours. If you arent on at deadline you likely wont have much to say.

Maybe in a setup more socially involved? Dayvigs + twilight sounds nice, I just forgot about the twilight period.

But what about compulsive twilight roles or w.e.?

[Elyse]

I didn't like the twilight. I like it when someone is lynched and the thread closes immediately. It also made me think there was a vengeful or something.

[RadiantCowbells]

I may not have been strictly trapped but you put me in a situation where that was my best move.

[Aquanim]

I may not have been strictly trapped but you put me in a situation where that was my best move.

No, he really didn't, and it really wasn't your best move. In actual fact, Pisskop was never going to shoot you, had no intention of lynching you, and your paranoia and resulting claim directly got our most relevant power role killed. If you had not claimed, you would not have been lynched, you probably wouldn't have been shot, and you probably would have got many checks this game. We might even have won.

I'm really trying not to just flame you here. I have some respect for the fact that you put effort into this game; if you learn from your mistakes you may become a skilled townie... but you have to acknowledge that claim was a mistake, and learn from it, or I've wasted my time talking and playing with you.

If a townie is basically confirmed town by virtue of their role it gives them more latitude to make plays that don't make sense and which they don't explain for the purpose of reactions. They have less responsibility to be accountable for themselves. In my experience this often leads to them lurking and playing like rubbish - Pisskop did an okay job of defying that stereotype.

With regard to the twilight, it was convenient for someone like me in an unusual timezone to know that no matter when hammer occurred I would have the opportunity to post before night. That would not have been true with no twilight or with a 1-2 hour twilight.

[Aquanim]

My problem goes more or less like this. I imagine I'm a fun person to play with, at least for some people. I put effort in, talk reasonably to people, don't just scream at my scumreads (mostly). (My attitude to Boonskiies was an aberration, which I'll get to.)

The trouble is, I'm not having fun. Joining this game was a mistake I regretted from start to finish. The last game I played, I played more or less like this, except I pretty much carried town to victory. Apart from the high from actually winning, playing that game was bloody miserable too. It's not always the fault of whoever I'm frusturated with. Going V/LA or replacing out is sometimes unexpected and unavoidable, but it messes up the game for me. I take care to play one game at once, so they can't get in each other's way, and play only when I know (barring some accident) I won't have to just ditch the thread for days at a time. Not being practiced or skilled isn't really a town player's fault either, but again (especially in extreme cases) it makes the game frusturating for me to play. I can deal with those. Sometimes I'll lose because of them. That I think I can deal with, but it does all add up.

What I saw when I looked at Boonskiies was a player who DELIBERATELY sabotages his towngame, so as to be able to have fun in and autowin his scumgames. That is pretty much everything I loathe about Mafia. I have to be able to know, as a townie, that everyone on my team is playing to their wincon first and foremost. (Some players' egos get in the way of their towngame - that really annoys me but even then at least they were trying.) I don't think I can play the game when I know some people care less about their wincon than deliberately fucking their town meta over. I can't even dodge all such players - I wouldn't have signed up for this game had I know Boonskiies was going to be in it, but what the hell am I supposed to do when he replaces in?

I've tried to quit Mafia for more-or-less these reasons before. The problem was, each time I was leaving on a win. I always kept looking back at random games and thinking "Jeez, those townies are awful. I could do better than that." , and remembering the high from winning my last game as opposed to the misery it was to actually play the game. I've also always wondered what my scumgame would be like, having never rolled scum before. But the game is seriously bad for me. I get stressed, it sucks up large quantities of time, and though I've learned how to persuasively argue with people that don't trust me (a useful skill which I perhaps needed) I'm now learning how to flame people who annoy me (which I think I should not learn).

I've lost games as town before (offsite); in each of them, the scumteam (and in one case, the third party) was entirely catchable, but the town was either mindbogglingly lazy or let their humongous egos draw them into dick-waving contests rather than actually playing the game. (I am no longer enamoured of my previous site.) It annoys me that in this game I might have seen a truly good scumteam that a good town would still not have caught, they played really very well... but I'll never know for sure whether you were that good, because instead you were playing against this clusterfuck of a town-team.

For the record, I don't have a problem with the play of Pisskop, or Eektor (though I wished you'd turned on a little sooner). Metalcyanide, Taly, Oddmusic, IL, and Bellaphant have a fair bit to learn, but all had the right attitude. I feel like Boonskiies, and to a lesser extent Mykonian and RC, just pissed some fraction of a month and a half of my time down the drain, and that makes me seriously mad.

[Aquanim]

EBWOP: Flaming a small fraction of the town players, and then calling the town team a clusterfuck, may seem incongruous. Remember that between the vig shot and the modkill, we would have had barely enough lynches (possibly not enough) to policy lynch everyone in that pile. We're *stuck* with them, and it only takes one stupid town player at LYLO to lose the game.