Alternate C9 Setups?

[dotchan]

Yeah, yeah, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, but I have a feeling that the C9 setup isn't very balanced: 2 scum, 5 vanilla tend to favor scum heavily, while 2 scum, Doc + Cop, 3 vanilla tend to favor town heavily. The two middle scenarios aren't all that much better because the vanilla's have no certainty of which power roles, if any, are in the game. Now, this may be considered a good thing, but I still think the current setup could use some tweaking.

These are just suggestions, of course. Feel free to poke a hole in them:

For the Scum, either:
*2 Mafia Goons (Night Talk, one sends in the kill) or
*2 "SK"s, (no Night talk, first one to send in the kill counts...and maybe they have crosskill immunity, too?)

For the Town, either:
*A Doc or a Cop, but not both. The Doc can block any kill, including if both of the "SK"s target the same character, but may not protect himself. The Cop is guarenteed Sane.

...with the remainder of the players being Vanilla Town.

What do you guys think?

[Oman]

Best way to fix a C9 = C9+2

Add two vanillia's and its pretty much even as any powerroles (including scum) are quite diluted.

The problem with the C9 is the LyLo, 1 mislynch and you're there.

The saving grace of a C9 is the small size makes it easy to join players.

*2 "SK"s, (no Night talk, first one to send in the kill counts...and maybe they have crosskill immunity, too?)

This idea is the worst thing that could happen to a C9. Basically you're still at LyLo D2 with a mislynch and even if you hit scum you can't link him to anyone. The small size and relativly large scumsize means that connection between scummembers is easy. You disconnect them and you screw the town without a cop.

A Doc or a Cop, but not both.

Again, I disagree. One of the cool things about the C9 setup is that a cop can claim and the mafia can WIFOM a docs existance on the kill.

Try to think about what makes the C9 good and what makes it bad, and then tweak off that, for example the D2 LyLo is bad, so increasing the town fixes that.

[Kelly Chen]

dotchan might want to browse through the open setup discussion and nomination thread for other ideas on how to alter C9.

I agree that 2 SKs is really not a good idea. The town would still have to try to hunt scum as usual, only they would have to believe there's a 50% chance it's totally pointless to look for connections.

"Doc or cop but not both" limits mafia fakeclaiming a lot more, and also means the cop and doc never have to guess whether the other is likely to exist.

I am not that wild about adding two townies to C9 just because I don't think games with two mafia are consistently interesting; if you're going to play with only two mafia then best make the game small.

Other ideas
Pie C9/E7: scum RB, goon, cop, doc.
bird C9: 2 goons, cop, doc; doc can't usefully protect the cop
2 goons, cop, jailkeeper (i.e. simultaneous rb+doc)
two cop C9: scum RB, goon, cop, cop. (allows scum to claim cop without necessarily causing/being a counterclaim)

[BrianMcQueso]

The problem with the C9 is the LyLo, 1 mislynch and you're there.

That's the beauty of it, IMO. The game is essentially best 2 out of 3. The town lose after two town lynches, and they win after two mafia lynches. Days can't go longer than 3 days, barring successful doctor protection.

That's why I think 2 scum, 1 cop, 4 town setups are optimal. The cop can trade their life for a scum's life, unless there is a counterclaim (which newbie mafiosos need to learn to do).

[JordanA24]

I like the C9 idea. But I think the Day 2 lylo situation is quite a bad thing considering it's a newbie game. All it takes is a couple of idiots/mistakes (which can easily happen in a newbie game), on the towns side, and the scum can win in about 3 or 4 pages (which has happened quite a few times), especially if the scum have an IC as well.

I think the best solution to this might well be increaing the size of the newbie games to 9 players. It would take a bit longer to find the extra 2 players, but not too long, considering the amount of new players we get as the site becomes more and more popular. I think the only power role tweaking that is needed with this setup is to give the scum a RB, and I think we have a balanced setup that is much more suited to newbies who are learning how to play the game, since one newbie slip-up can cost the town the game with the current C9 setup.

[Zindaras]

I keep linking to this thread. There's a nice argument between Flay and me about changing C9 into C9+2 there.