New Idea to Alieviate Modding Backups

[Oman]

The current idea is that the first game for a new mod must be a mini normal. And I can respect the reasons for such, however, we have a backlog of 4 months+ based on current game rates (I suppose they're increasing, and a patented Flay Graph would prove it ).

My suggestion is this: Allow the new mod to mod as their first, a theme mini or a normal mini.

Conditional: The theme setup must be approved by a qualified mod/nomiated player/someone with X games modded/Kelly+excel.

EDIT: Conditional: Back-up mod.

I understand many people will be wary of cutting newbie mods lose on mini themes, but with an approved setup, the only mistake will be horrible, horrible flavour (with a "u").

EDIT: Would the fact that the mini theme was being run by a newbie affect your choice to sign up?

Furthermore: Discuss!

[Erg0]

The open game queue is much shorter - I'm now modding my second open game while a number of people with similar join dates are just starting their first mini normal mod.

Having said that, I think that the glut of mods in the mini normal queue is an issue, not just for newbie mods but for experienced mods who genuinely want to mod a mini normal game.

I can understand the reason why we don't want newbies modding theme games, I think the general issue is just that there are way too many newbies wanting to mod a game. Maybe if the experience requirement was pushed out to six months? I'd be curious how many of these mods go on to moderate more games after their first mini normal.

[Oman]

Maybe if the experience requirement was pushed out to six months?

Whoa, thats not the issue here. The problem isn't (to me) too many newbies for the games, its not enough games for the newbies.

The experience requirement of three months has proven to be sufficent. And I think pushing it back is unneccessary.

I'd be curious how many of these mods go on to moderate more games after their first mini normal.

Me too [/ponder]

Also, the open queue is shorter, and the games feature more players too.

[Erg0]

I had a feeling you wouldn't like that, but think about it: Waiting three moths to join the queue and four months to get a game is the same as waiting six months to join the queue and one month to get a game.

You're looking at the symptom, I'm trying to find the cause. To me, the basic problem is that we have too many mods and not enough players. We need to either increase the supply of players or decrease the supply of mods. Reducing the number of mods is the easier option by far.

I'm not saying that three months isn't enough experience to mod a game, just that it seems that it's too low a threshold to balance supply and demand. If the attrition rate after the first modded game is high, then it's not really to the site's benefit to allow every player who feels like modding to run one game and then never mod again.

[Oman]

is the same as waiting six months to join the queue and one month to get a game.

Thats not going to happen. We'll just have people clogged after being here for six months rather than 3. There'll still be the backlog, just earlier join-dates.

To me, the basic problem is that we have too many mods and not enough players. We need to either increase the supply of players or decrease the supply of mods. Reducing the number of mods is the easier option by far.

I think opening up the mini theme queue would increase the ammount of players more easily than removing mods.

You're talking about reducing supply of mods by setting back join dates, I doubt that will work. I am talking about increasing demand by increasing games mod-able.

[Erg0]

People are always afraid of new ideas.

Yeah, honestly I don't know if increasing the experience requirement would reduce the queues that much, it really depends on what kind of user drop off we have between three and six months. For that matter, how many people hang around purely because they've been on that mini normal list for three months and damned if they're going to leave now that they're tenth from the top?

I worry that allowing newbies into the mini theme queue is just going to clog it up the same way. There are currently two queues available to newbie mods, and one is much longer than the other, which has to tell us something. Part of the problem is that the mini normal queue is competing with the mini theme queue for players, whereas people can sign up for as many open games as they like. I don't think the throughput in the open game queue is anywhere near as high as the mini normal queue, though.

It would be helpful if someone could point to the (probably well-explored) reason why newbies aren't allowed into the mini theme queue. I suspect that it has something to do with potentially worse consequences if they flake on their game.

[Oman]

Part of the problem is that the mini normal queue is competing with the mini theme queue for players, whereas people can sign up for as many open games as they like. I don't think the throughput in the open game queue is anywhere near as high as the mini normal queue, though.

This point is extreemly valid, and is one that sits in my mind as one possibe...thing (i started with a word to go there).

I suspect that it has something to do with potentially worse consequences if they flake on their game.

Thats why in my first post I had the "approved setup" clause, many will not flake on a game they've put the hard yards in to create.

I've edited it to include a required Back-up mod, as that is crucial.

[Erg0]

At the risk of turning this thread into a conversation, let me ask this: would the fact that a theme game is being run by a newbie mod affect your choice of whether or not to sign up for it?

[Oman]

Personally, No it wouldn't

IF

it was reviewed. I'd be worried about the setup if it was not reviewed and approved, but otherwise I'd be fine with it (Just as I'm happy being in a newbie's mini normal). I've had mods flake on me that have been around for years, and mods create setups that were poor that have been around for years.

I do however find that questions very interesting, adding to OP.

Also, would it affect you erg0?

[Erg0]

It would, to the extent that I won't sign up for a mini theme unless I'm fairly sure that the mod either knows what they're doing or has had the game reviewed by someone who does. I'd apply the same thinking to mini normals, actually, since they seem to be prone to some wacky crap these days from mods who really want to be running a mini theme, but can't, so they cram their weird mechanic into a "normal" game.

In other words, I'm cautious but I would take reviews into account (if any of my current minis ever end).

[Oman]

to the extent that I won't sign up for a mini theme unless I'm fairly sure that the mod either knows what they're doing or

has had the game reviewed by someone who does.

Word.

[Aimee]

I don't really see the problem with the system as it is - I understand the frustration of mods, but I feel that all experience is supplimentary, meaning you really can only learn more after experience.

On a different note, I would be for compulsory balancing of Mini Normals, however. Discuss?

[Oman]

Do you mind if we discuss that somewhere else, I really want to hear from either some really experienced or some power-that-be on why this is so and what they think of my plan.

Though I do want to have that discussion too

[Kelly Chen]

It used to be permitted for a new mod to mod a mini theme or (I believe) a large normal. As I remember it, the mini theme queue was a longer wait (despite taking two sets of signups at a time) and people would try to mod themed games as a mini regular.

Except for when the mini theme queue runs dry (which isn't presently the case), I don't see how more people waiting to mod a mini theme would bring more players.

[Oman]

I'm gonna give an example which will probably give an insight into why I thought about this in the first place:

I created a new setup based on a new game mechanic, so far I've had it reviewed by Simmy and Mole (simmy got V1.1 Mole got V2.1 and V2.2) and I've ironed out the bugs, I intend to get it looked at 2-3 more times before I mod it cause I want it to be good.

Now with a setup that well reviewed, with a backup mod, and my dedication to the game, I don't see why, as a newbie, I should be excluded from being able to mod this for the next 6 months (including a 4 month wait) when I've done the hard yards.

[Thok]

Oman, no matter what, you're going to have a long wait to mod. If you implement the change you've suggested (which for the most part is simply going back to the status quo of a year or so ago), the length of the lists will massively shift so that Mini Theme will be roughly 2/3 the length of the current Mini Regular, and Mini Regular being 1/3 its current length.

The wait for any Mini game is fairly intrinsic, since you need roughly 12 players for each mod, and a vast majority of mafia scum wants to mod. The ridiculous shortness of the Mini Theme list was only a temporary phenomenon that will go away as more people become veteran mods.

Your argument really seems to be "I want to be on the Mini Theme list because I'm impatient".

[Oman]

No my argument is about a 4 month wait to mod, which is rediculous considering the expansivness of our community.

I understand your point, and patience is a saintly virtue, it simply seems to me like a problem that has a solution, it just needs to be implemented. Also, I can't speak for a year ago.

I doubt the mini theme list will grow so much as I am proposing only those with reviewed setups and back-up mods should be allowed to /in to mod and a lot of people wont even go to THAT trouble.

[Thok]

I doubt the mini theme list will grow so much as I am proposing only those with reviewed setups and back-up mods should be allowed to /in to mod and a lot of people wont even go to THAT trouble.

You vastly underestimate how many people really want to mod theme games rather than normal games. Neither of the requirements you are suggesting are that difficult.

[Kelly Chen]

Yes, I'm concerned about how easy it is to say that so-and-so "reviewed" the game. I "review" a number of games that I don't end up giving the "stamp of approval" to, even after changes are made. Often I don't get to see the final changes.

[Oman]

Well perhaps by a stamp of approval clause.

[Mr. Flay]

Yeah, the Mini Normal Queue ONLY ballooned after it became a pre-requisite for other moderating queues. Most of those mods joined in 2007, and are waiting their cycle so that they can run games they REALLY want to. Once they cycle through, things will balance a bit.

Cephrir frankly surprised me when he came up with two completed games the other day, and asked to help in the Newbie Queue (yay!). I hadn't realized one could work through the Open Queue so fast...

[The Fonz]

I would, frankly, consider running mini normals in future, after the current one, if it weren't for the ludicrous size of the queue. As is, I'll just progress mini normal-Freedom Force theme- newbie queue.

[Sarcastro]

People should have to wait a year after joining before they can mod a game. This would solve all problems. Also, it's sufficiently elitist and exclusionary for my tastes.

[IH]

I would actually prefer IC status before you can mod. If you haven't played five games, then you don't need to be modding I think.

EDIT-On the note of reviewing and such, I personally think that to get your setup approved without a backup mod, these precautions should be taken.

At least two APPROVED reviewers give your setup a mark of approval.

The list mod receive your setup (if by a seperate Gmail account or whatever) in case of abandonment and an appropriate backupmod could then be found.

Sarc's abandonment of open 4 probably helped us scum win because of how it killed discussion and we had to resend our PM's to Thesp.

[somestrangeflea]

I would actually prefer IC status before you can mod. If you haven't played five games, then you don't need to be modding I think.

Keffed.

To be fair, I'm not sure if IC status is high enough for modding. I'm sortaNoob, but even I managed to get more than 10 done before the 3 month mark.

Double-IC Status (6 month and 10 completed) for modding, perhaps?