Micro 745: Beyond Death [Endgame]

[northsidegal]

pagetop!

micc, it was a mostly random vote but now it's a serious one. what do you think about that?

[CheekyTeeky]

uhh neutral I guess. If I felt like I already had a read off of it I wouldn't be digging into it by asking questions

That's very "Switzerland" of you lol. I think your logic is bad though. You can have expectations prior to receiving a response, and get a better read by digging asking questions. I assume that you already have a read on me then, since you're not digging and asking me questions?

I really want Hop to answer my question before I move my vote but FoS: Micc.

[Micc]

pagetop!

micc, it was a mostly random vote but now it's a serious one. what do you think about that?

I think if youre serious about your vote you should be stating a case to convince the other players in the game to join you in forming a wagon.

That's very "Switzerland" of you lol. I think your logic is bad though. You can have expectations prior to receiving a response, and get a better read by digging asking questions. I assume that you already have a read on me then, since you're not digging and asking me questions?

Sure, if I was reaction testing it would make sense that I should have expectations prior to receiving a response. But this wasn't even a reaction test. I'm just legitimately curious what northsidegal was trying to do with the vote. Like, I got snarky because she was interfering with my line of questioning on Chip. Yet her questioning seemed like an attempt at engagement. I didn't want to shut that down so I reached out again by asking about the vote, but she's clearly not interested in engagement at this point. Guess I probably answered my own question and it was a reaction test. Regardless she's not getting town points from me until she explains the vote or explains the reaction test.

nothing from you has struck me as awkward or scummy enough to begin questioning. I guess that makes you a town lean but in truth it just means that I haven't begun to try and sort you yet. ill get there at some point tho. I promise.

[northsidegal]

I think if youre serious about your vote you should be stating a case to convince the other players in the game to join you in forming a wagon.

i think you feel mechanical in your responses when you say something like this and i think you reacted poorly to my vote. i took a really quick look through your posts in another game where you were town and it seemed like you were talking a lot more naturally. i mean, your only response to me saying my vote on you is serious is gameplay advice? nothing questioning why it's serious now, nothing pressing me for making a strangely timed rvs vote? even if you believed i was reaction testing you i think this is still a strange response.

my random vote on you was actually random. when i said it was serious it was just a reaction test, but now it's seriously serious (seriously!).

do you have a scum game of yours that you'd like to point me towards?

[Micc]

I'll aknowledge the meta argument when you provide analysis of quotes from games of mine as each alignment.

But like, I tried to engage you about your vote in posts 85 and 96. Forgive me for getting snarky again with post 102, but posts 85 and 96 were my response to your vote...and then you just brushed them off. If you followed my advice and posted a case I would have gotten to see why you're vote changed to serious and posts 85 and 96 are exactly me "pressing you for an oddly timed RVS vote". Like what gives?


Pretty sure these are the only scum games I've played besides marathons. I'm looking forward to the meta analysis regarding my mechanicalness.
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[Chip Butty]

Oh are we done. Okay. Let's talk about how micc just skipped over my entrence entirely?

You haven't really done anything interesting at this point so that's where I'm at.

So who of Cheekyteeky, Micc, and nothsidegal is most likely to be scum on your wagon?

although that's a valid question on its own i think he was talking more generally about the idea that he'd be lynched just for the placement of his rvs vote and how scum would have to be on that wagon if it went trhough. i don't think specifically he was calling any of those three scum.

I guess we will just have to wait and see what Chip says Chip meant instead of what northsidegal thinks Chip meant.

What NSG said.

[Chip Butty]

I just took a look at the beginning of the second scum.Micc game Micc linked to (the first he replaced in), and he did one RVS vote (this is an old game) and then got straight into it. Was probing people early there too and was actually twice as active there as here in the first 100 posts of the game (23 compared to 12 here, or something like that). NAI, I think.

Too early to call if he is really scumhunting or just trying to look busy. I said earlier Micc is prob town but after thinking about it more, i can see both town and scum motivations for his play to date. At the moment null or a very slight town lean.

[Kawso]

UNVOTE: Hopkirk

VOTE: north

I'm afraid the random vote - reaction test - serious vote just seems scrambling almost

[CheekyTeeky]

UNVOTE: Hopkirk

VOTE: north

I'm afraid the random vote - reaction test - serious vote just seems scrambling almost

I think you may have unvoted scum, to vote scum.

[Micc]

What NSG said.

...and that's why it's rude to answer questions that aren't aimed at you.

@Chip: How is "If I get lynched there is likely scum on my wagon" a useful post if you don't even have an opinion about who the scum on your wagon is? Can't literally anyone who gets lynched make that argument and have it be true more often than not?

[Hopkirk]

Well, if somehow I do get lynched, look for scum on my wagon. There's only 8 available votes, and there are 5 needed to lynch and I can't see 5 town voting for this RC thing. Or even 4, really...Gotta go...

This strikes me as overly concerned with a few RVS votes.

Ok fair. I'll move my vote when something else pings me.

I do agree that not lynching is the wrong move, because even if we lynch wrong we get the players voice as conf. town during the next day phases. It might be a good strat to sort experienced/high contributing players first, and if there is enough consensus that the player is likely scum, they would be an ideal first lynch.

I disliked the previous post (I think 61) since it seemed like Cheeky was trying to make an attack based on something unimportant, so like that they stepped away afterwards.

Micc, if we are going to get all serious, it seems to me that that slot has as much chance of being scum as any other, so why would it matter that RC was replacing out? Are you trying to discourage votes on that slot?

No, I'm just stating how unproductive it is to be voting an empty slot at that stage of the game.

if you're saying that rvs voting an empty slot doesn't help leave rvs because it doesn't draw reactions the same way that rvsing a player who's in the game does, shouldn't your own reaction to that prove that wrong?

I don't think so. By that logic one could argue that self voting is a productive way to end RVS and I don't agree with that at all.

Well, if somehow I do get lynched, look for scum on my wagon. There's only 8 available votes, and there are 5 needed to lynch and I can't see 5 town voting for this RC thing. Or even 4, really...Gotta go...

So who of Cheekyteeky, Micc, and nothsidegal is most likely to be scum on your wagon?

Given the discussion over Chip's RVS vote has taken us out of initial RVS, it was technically successful.

okay but you still didn't really answer my question which was

did you still believe those two unanswered points were valid when you made 63?

Like i'm asking is it the case that:
a) you didn't believe those points were valid when making 59 and thus also didn't believe them when making 63 even though nobody else discussed them;
b) you did believe them when making 59 but changed your mind before making 63 for some reason; or
c) you did believe them when making 59 and still believed them when making 63 but other things cabd did overrode your otherwise valid reasons to scumread him?

if its c - which i suspect it is - what did cabd do in his responses to make you tr him? was it solely the fact that he didn't rebut your case point by point?

The abc list strikes me as very odd.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Hopkirk what do you think about micc? I think Cabd indirectly asked you a question about RVS shortly after your last post too.

Micc seems odd at the end of p3.

Do you think not voting during the RVS phase is scum motivated?

Do you mean that? It doesn't looked specifically aimed at me. I don't see anywhere else he could have asked me something since he didn't answer the question I asked him, which I assume would come before any question to me.

so this is what i mean when i say that pressure on cabd feels artificial. i feel like i have a good enough idea of scumhunting (in general, if not for cheeky's playstyle in particular) to say that the reasoning here feels forced. i'm not sure why a scum cheeky would specifically want a cabd wagon so i don't know if this is necessarily indicitive of scum but i feel like it's still strange enough to warrant pointing out.

whole post for reference:

Spoiler:

Cool, everyone has checked in. I disagree with BTD6 (did you really make that game?), I think Cabd not voting is NAI, based on one game I've played with him. In the game he was town, but we see he is aware that he's played with me from his newbie comment earlier ITT. Cabd, being a meta genius, probably knows to not RVS vote again to have me assume a town read on him. So, the potential self-awareness of his opening move nullifies me reading him as a town lean, based on that one point alone. I feel there are other points that raise my suspicion on Cabd. First off he enters without providing any indication of early reads, when there's only one page to go off, so it wouldn't be hard to skim and then enter announcing any thoughts to help progress the game. Second, his "loaded gun" response to being questionned about not RVS voting, feels dramatic and out of place, like the emphasis is on being reasonable about voting, but we're not out of the RVS woods yet. Third, he comments on his own replacement slot by saying that rc doesn't like town, thats probably why he replaced, but that the point is also null. I'm not sure what the point of this comment is, if not to subtly put in our minds that his slot is town.

Overall I'd say I have an early scum lean on Cabd.
VOTE: Cabd

I think Cabd not voting is NAI, based on one game I've played with him. In the game he was town, but we see he is aware that he's played with me from his newbie comment earlier ITT. Cabd, being a meta genius, probably knows to not RVS vote again to have me assume a town read on him. So, the potential self-awareness of his opening move nullifies me reading him as a town lean, based on that one point alone.

i only know cabd as a mod but it doesn't seem realistic that he specifically thought of his rvs behavior in his last game with cheeky and made the conscious decision to do the same thing to attempt to bait cheeky. maybe cabd really is a meta genius and thought through this all but it just doesn't make sense to me. i know cheeky's conclusion here was that it's null, but why even mention all this? this is what i mean when i say artificial.

First off he enters without providing any indication of early reads, when there's only one page to go off, so it wouldn't be hard to skim and then enter announcing any thoughts to help progress the game. Second, his "loaded gun" response to being questionned about not RVS voting, feels dramatic and out of place, like the emphasis is on being reasonable about voting, but we're not out of the RVS woods yet.

this is kind of a reasonable point but it still seems odd to be specifically directed towards cabd. there are other people at this point who have contributed less. as for the second point i'd repeat what a lot of people have already said that being more careful with your vote isn't necessarily scummy.

Third, he comments on his own replacement slot by saying that rc doesn't like town, thats probably why he replaced, but that the point is also null. I'm not sure what the point of this comment is, if not to subtly put in our minds that his slot is town.

you misread what he was saying. he didn't say that rc probably replaced because he doesn't like town, he said that in normal circumstances it would indicate that the slot is scum but due to rc leaving all of the games ( ) it doesn't mean anything.

also i guess you could say that what ss was saying about the pressure disappearing quickly is artificial, but i'm not really making that point and i'm not really sure about it.

This is an overly strong defense of Cabd given the lack of real pressure that I can see.
VOTE: North

Also, re "meta master" my title is a thing because at one point i kept a literal binder full of meta tells for every user, and read every single game that took place in a two year period to tally it.

I'm married and have a job now, so lolnope.jpg anymore.

Every game on site... How long did that take?

[Hopkirk]

Looks like I was RVS voting him already anyway.

uhh neutral I guess. If I felt like I already had a read off of it I wouldn't be digging into it by asking questions

That's very "Switzerland" of you lol. I think your logic is bad though. You can have expectations prior to receiving a response, and get a better read by digging asking questions. I assume that you already have a read on me then, since you're not digging and asking me questions?

I really want Hop to answer my question before I move my vote but FoS: Micc.

Why would you expect me to not answer if you removed the vote, and why are you treating the question of 'what do you think of x player (that you don't explicitly scumread)' as so significant?

UNVOTE: Hopkirk

VOTE: north

I'm afraid the random vote - reaction test - serious vote just seems scrambling almost

I think you may have unvoted scum, to vote scum.

Given you've asked me for my thoughts on Micc when I hadn't mentioned him yet, (and given, though slightly less so, that you haven't really mentioned me outside there) I find it surprising you didn't mention why you're scumleaning on me. I'd like to hear your thoughts there.

[northsidegal]

This is an overly strong defense of Cabd given the lack of real pressure that I can see.

like i said in some other post, it wasn't really meant to be a defense of cabd so much as pointing out strange behavior. i don't know if it's just me, but it seems like people are acting very odd this game and i'm having a hard time interpreting it.

[northsidegal]

UNVOTE: Hopkirk

VOTE: north

I'm afraid the random vote - reaction test - serious vote just seems scrambling almost

I think you may have unvoted scum, to vote scum.

what about me this game seems to you to show an anti-town motivation or a playstyle difference that would indicate i'm scum?

[Hopkirk]

This is an overly strong defense of Cabd given the lack of real pressure that I can see.

like i said in some other post, it wasn't really meant to be a defense of cabd so much as pointing out strange behavior. i don't know if it's just me, but it seems like people are acting very odd this game and i'm having a hard time interpreting it.

It doesn't read like that since you don't really mention who you're talking about, so it's going to get lost rather than developed if bringing them to light is your intent.
Also people don't seem 'very odd' moreso than usual at this stage to me.

[northsidegal]

This is an overly strong defense of Cabd given the lack of real pressure that I can see.

like i said in some other post, it wasn't really meant to be a defense of cabd so much as pointing out strange behavior. i don't know if it's just me, but it seems like people are acting very odd this game and i'm having a hard time interpreting it.

It doesn't read like that since you don't really mention who you're talking about, so it's going to get lost rather than developed if bringing them to light is your intent.
Also people don't seem 'very odd' moreso than usual at this stage to me.

i tried to make it clear that the whole post was in response to cheeky's one post. that's why i put the "whole post for reference" in a spoiler. if other people don't see it (the strange behavior) then it's possible it's just me.

[Sobolev Space]

so this is what i mean when i say that pressure on cabd feels artificial. i feel like i have a good enough idea of scumhunting (in general, if not for cheeky's playstyle in particular) to say that the reasoning here feels forced. i'm not sure why a scum cheeky would specifically want a cabd wagon so i don't know if this is necessarily indicitive of scum but i feel like it's still strange enough to warrant pointing out.

why do you think scum!cheeky would drum up this big phony post about how cabd could be scum only to backtrack on it 4 posts later? it didn't seem to me like cheeky's intent there was to start a wagon

[Sobolev Space]

rude!! we're still sort of in rvs so i don't feel bad about this!
VOTE: micc

bad vote

[Sobolev Space]

now i've got two trs and one of them isn't cabd

This seems to imply you got a town read on Hopkirk from post 38. Can you explain that one please?

yea i thought that his questions in 38 meshed a lot with what i was thinking when i read those posts which indicates a towny thought process. it wasn't a super strong read at the time but its been strengthened by his recent posts as well

ftr my other tr at the time was chip but when i entered the game the wagon on him was pretty much the only thing happening and i wanted to see what happened with it

[Sobolev Space]

I'm afraid the random vote - reaction test - serious vote just seems scrambling almost

my random vote on you was actually random. when i said it was serious it was just a reaction test, but now it's seriously serious (seriously!).

that was my initial impression as well kawso but based on the phrasing here:

micc, it was a mostly random vote but now it's a serious one.

what do you think about that?

i'm actually inclined to believe the north originally intended it as a reaction test

[Sobolev Space]

cheeky why do u think hopkirk is scum i like him

[Sobolev Space]

VOTE: kawso

[northsidegal]

so this is what i mean when i say that pressure on cabd feels artificial. i feel like i have a good enough idea of scumhunting (in general, if not for cheeky's playstyle in particular) to say that the reasoning here feels forced. i'm not sure why a scum cheeky would specifically want a cabd wagon so i don't know if this is necessarily indicitive of scum but i feel like it's still strange enough to warrant pointing out.

why do you think scum!cheeky would drum up this big phony post about how cabd could be scum only to backtrack on it 4 posts later? it didn't seem to me like cheeky's intent there was to start a wagon

that's exactly what i was saying there - i don't see the scum purpose in forcing suspicion onto cabd so i wasn't saying it was scummy, but it just seemed strange enough that i felt i should point it out.

[Sobolev Space]

what do you think about the pressure on you from kawso + hopkirk + cheeky, north?