Micro 759: Tarot uPick III - Game Over!

[nancy]

Oh I was waiting for him to ask but he never did, why was that post scummy Porkens?

[nancy]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Vote: drealmerz7

#killyourfriends

[nancy]

Eh, I wanted to spice things up a bit for EoD so I can feel better with where I'm at solving-wise but on second thought I don't think it's worth it.

Vote: Yetichain

[nancy]

Whatever Porkens I'm sick of mafia on this site.

Vote: NK15

[nancy]

Like I don't get what part of "this is the harder partner to lynch, help me while I'm alive" people find so hard to follow.

[nancy]

Please hammer let this be over.

[nancy]

That's how a cop should shoot, not a vig, but w/e.

[nancy]

/me tries really hard to not vent about how unbearable mafia on this site is.

[nancy]

Very easy for you to say that drealmer when you make it to LyLo in most of your towngames.

[nancy]

Unvote

I am going to cool off and come back tomorrow when I have more tolerance again.

[nancy]

If you want to vote somewhere, vote somewhere. Why wait for hammer?

[nancy]

Porkens you should put your vote back on NK15, vote with your heart and just ignore my tantrums.

Vote: Yetichain

[nancy]

Very easy for you to say that drealmer when you make it to LyLo in most of your towngames.

it has nothing to do with that it's about game approach

the least amount of effort should go into D1, but ppl constnatly break their fucking brains, good-will, motivation and enthusiam for playing on D1 because they give it the most effort, and then by default less and less effort goes into the following Days

You don't get it. Don't worry.

[nancy]

I've barely been trying at all. Haven't put this little effort into a day 1 in a while. This is one of my first games coming back from my break trying mafiascum again but I just don't like it. I said "don't worry" because it's not worth explaining all about that here, it's just distracting.

E.g., distracting from the way that your thread presence is continuing to seem more contrived. 832 looks like something that would be superficially a real thought but it just comes across as forced and over-elaborate, similarly 831.

Vote: drealmer

[nancy]

If you're not scum you should stop playing like scum

[nancy]

I don't dislike how you're playing on a personal level if that's what you mean.

I didn't say waiting to hammer a good lynch was playing like scum.

[nancy]

Nor do I even consider NK15 a good lynch except for the fact that it's decently likely to flip mafia and there'd be one less person in the game interested in breaking people down.

[nancy]

wanting to hammer a good lynch is not playing like scum

dispelling a good wagon near EoD is

again, I wasn't waiting to hammer...

???

[nancy]

I don't dislike how you're playing on a personal level if that's what you mean.

I mean unless you're town in which case I kind of do.

[nancy]

D1s need to be shorter

when is anyone going to get the clue?

Idk why this is your complaint when your vote is on no one.

[nancy]

not sure your issue? wanting vs. waiting, two different things

I wanted to hammer, then unvotes happened

I wasn't waiting for anything ?

So if NK15 was at L-1 again right now you wouldn't hammer?

[nancy]

You're probably thinking I'm describing it as some wrongful act? I'm not.

[nancy]

So I don't get the difference? You're not voting, but if there was a hammer you would vote. So you're waiting.

[nancy]

Another legalistic circle of argumentation that you're winding without saying anything at all or meaningfully contributing to the game. What have you done besides try to break things down this game?

[nancy]

Idk on page 34 I see a ton of nitpicking over which word I used when you could've just clarified from the start, it's like blood from a stone with you and the only time you do put out something substantive it's talking about why X shouldn't be trusted or why others should be doing more, it's hypocritical and scummy.

[nancy]

Please produce reads.

[nancy]

Sure, but why is that something you want to know? Aren't you averse to talking about townreads and shit? Not willing to lynch Porkens, Varsoon or Dunkerdoodles today.

[nancy]

I really do suck on D1 most of the time

Why are you saying you suck if you think you've caught the team? Besides I've seen you catch mafia on day 1 in morph's game. Try not to be negative please.

[nancy]

Not-willing-to-lynch and townread generally coincide. I would say I'm unwilling to lynch you but I'm pushing you right now in the probably vain hope of getting something out of you.

So why did you ask?

[nancy]

Right but what does it tell you in terms of my alignment?

[nancy]

The question, I mean, not the response I gave. Or did you only ask to check your understanding?

Why the NK15 vote? Why did / do you think he is a good lynch?

pedit in terms of your read on my alignment.

[nancy]

You don't want to talk about NK15?

[nancy]

It'd be helpful for me getting a better read on you if you talked about why you thought his wagon was good and why you still think so. Is helpful to me enough of a reason?

[nancy]

Also why do you not think it's reason enough that you should be obliged to share your reasoning for voting him, since if people didn't share their reasoning then we'd have no way to gauge the legitimacy of their vote?

[nancy]

I'm just naturally insatiable. Besides, I joined this game basically just to play with you so I'd like to actually have a chance of doing that. And if I'm going to be reading you as the game goes on, then this now is going to be part of that anyway.

You kind of are advocating that people don't give reasons just by giving no reasons yourself since presumably you're playing this game in a way that you believe to be optimal.

[nancy]

I understand wanting me to engage more and share more and I'm sorry that me not is so frustrating I'd probably be frustrated too but it's what I've decided to do and so either SR me for it and push me as scum or let me do my thing and relax about it

I'm not frustrated anymore.

[nancy]

I only get frustrated when I get into fruitless talks about the semantic properties of "waiting" and "wanting".

[nancy]

Any hope of a reason on NK15 before I go out to listen to some poets in the city?

pedit haha I don't blame you. I'm decently paranoid of you as well although probably not as much. And, okay, understandable.

[nancy]

Alright.

Vote: Yetichain

Ciao.

[nancy]

Lelo?

Thanks!

Being insatiable isn't an "issue".

[nancy]

I'll bite!

Why does that post garner your vote?

[nancy]

So I was sitting here reading nancy and drealz and I thought “how can I insert myself into that”? Because it seemed like real, actual communication, and I felt a pang of “I could go for some of that”!

Ftr that's what playing on other sites is like all the time, but imagine everyone talking in depth about their thoughts and reads in that manner rather than just semi-banter.

[nancy]

I changed my mind about acidphoenix being town enough.

[nancy]

Vote: acidphoenix

[nancy]

Yetichain also could just be bad town in this game rather than scum. Need more informations.

[nancy]

Yetichain also could just be bad town in this game rather than scum. Need more informations.

what would be bad town about keychain's play this game?

will respond to more later

Pretty much all of the scummy things they've done that could be reduced to playstyle or them having a shaky game. Why?

[nancy]

Why are there so few votes on Northsidegal? We have less than three days left. They and especially LUV were scumread by many people. Either vote them right now or explain why not.

Your reasoning for her being scum sucks and is more of a reason to vote you than her.

[nancy]

Yetichain also could just be bad town in this game rather than scum. Need more informations.

Have you already explained somewhere why you think Yetichain is "bad town"?

Not really. I will at some point, I promise.

Probably easier for me to do it when I have time to sit down with Yeti and talk to them.

[nancy]

I think I'd be up for a Dunkerdoodles lynch after all.

[nancy]

Varsoon ya no quiero linchar a Yetichain hoy sabes?

[nancy]

I don't want to lynch Yetichain today anymore ok?

[nancy]

ahora is now

[nancy]

I still /kind of/ have a PoE of exactly 1 scum in {Varsoon, Yetichain} but I'm not as convinced by it now and it's become more of a "put those two aside and grok it later".

[nancy]

I feel bad for excluding Xiao Long. He is a hydra head too.

[nancy]

I don't think it is but I'm full of doubt and would feel bad mislynching her day 1.

[nancy]

Whereas lynching either of acidphoenix or Dunkerdoodles wouldn't cost town anything if they are town and I wouldn't feel bad.

[nancy]

In other words I'm a milquetoast.

[nancy]

Fwiw I mostly agree with Varsoon's interpretation but don't think it makes NK15 lock town.

[nancy]

Would be good if you created content rather than just answered questions @Yeti

[nancy]

Going further into your reads from the bottom up sounds like a good idea!

With maybe a little bit of special emphasis on acidphoenix as I don't understand his placement in that tier.

[nancy]

Actually, a better way to do this is to just talk about whichever reads interest you the most right now, regardless of where they are placed on the list.

[nancy]

Townread on Porkens is primarily because of rapid read changes, especially whichever post that was where he went from reads to a whole lot of question marks and unsurety. It's a bold move as scum to do that so early on.

Would you mind talking about this more after you look at acid please?

[nancy]

Thanks!

[nancy]

Why does he need to out his role in order to find someone good to neighborize? I don't understand this line of reasoning from you very well.

I find the point about background research in 247 to be pretty weak since that's relatively easy to fake and moreover he didn't really follow up with the read once I showed him where I had seen drealmer emotionally invested in theorytalk as mafia, but it looks like that's a minor point for you so I'm fine with that I guess?

I don't understand why you're so emphatic about townreads on you not making sense? Why do you think you deserve to be scumread so much?

I'm nothing like Regfan he's a complete and utter noob how dare you. No it isn't intentional his bad habits must be rubbing off on me a bit I guess I've been spending too much time around him recently. >:[

[nancy]

First point is true but why would he do it as scum? It's the motivation that looks towny to me. Neighbourisers don't have to out themselves to get a good target but I don't know how well he's been following the game so claiming to get offers might have made sense to him. The result was that you outright asked him to neighbourise you. You're right in that his investment isn't strong but I'm not inclined to scumread him for that, it's like... if he hasn't provided much in the way of contribution I won't have a lot to inform my read either way. Not married to this read though I'm still leaning town.

My first point wasn't a point, it was a question.

What I'm looking for from you is articulation of why you think the whole "interested in finding someone to talk to" is something that is town / gives you intense town vibes, if you suppose it could just as easily be a scum neighborizer then why are you reading it as town? Those two are very contradictory. I would like to understand what you think the motivation is there that exists for town and not for scum. Why wouldn't he have done that as mafia?

But I might have to check timing to see what I had posted as of these townreads, the Acid one at least was pretty early.

Yeah I think that is at least worth noting; his townread on you came before any of the scummy stuff you described about yourself so looking into that an explaining why the townread is suspicious to in the context it was made would be helpful, if you want to give another take there.

[nancy]

I have to cut this short sorry my girlfriend just came by suddenly, hope we can finish talking later.

[nancy]

Have a brief bit of time while my gf is predisposed for a minute.

Thanks for running me through your thoughts on those two scenarios. I think you've touched on the main points that I was seeing there myself which is just it's a very unnecessary thing to do and makes more sense coming from someone who is really lazy/careless about their role and how it's used, think that type of -EV play is generically a little +town, with the secondary point to that being that if he's town then claiming and talking about neighborizing someone functions as a way for him to get reads whereas if he's mafia then he's playing some sort of game where his neighborize is the prize which mostly just seems like too much effort to being going into for too little especially since it's going to attract attention to him and potentially limit his options. Nothing super compelling for me to think that he's not just careless mafia and I'm reading too much into it though so it's a grain of salt type thing for me and I think our big difference is the strength of the read we were getting from it, although you seem to have clarified that you're not doing more than leaning town so maybe not that much in the end.

Not trying to change your read. Gotta go.

[nancy]

Vote: Jabarkas Mayonnaise

Recently spiel on Yeti's claim is scum-oriented thinking and they are currently voting a townread in a very opportunistic manner. I'd like to see them or Dunkerdoodles gone.

[nancy]

Porkens, I think Varsoon's early townread on northsidegal was TMI and I think the way that they have voted this game has shown that they are not talking to each other as hydra partners trying to solve the game. I think I was wrong to discount my scumread on account of personality / playstyle. Please vote with me.

[nancy]

I also think that if Jabarkas is mafia NK15 is a good spot to start looking for their partner. If Jabarkas is mafia here and NK15 is town then the gamestate and wagons are favorable for them and they have no need to vote someone they have stated a townread on; if on the other hand Jabarkas is mafia with NK15 then the gamestate is more precarious for them and they need to push a counterwagon, northsidegal being the only viable option.

[nancy]

Thanks Yeti.

[nancy]

It's in your hands, Porkens.

[nancy]

Fwiw I didn't get to talk to Yeti about my earlier issues with them but I think the way that Yetichain approached the townreads on them with some pretty nuanced suspicion that involved delving into acidphoenix's and northsidegal's differing motivation / source for their read and coming out with different takes on both is something mafia isn't going to think to do as much and it didn't look like it was something they went out of their way to do in the effort to towntell. That + the pointed way in which they engaged with me last page has me starting to feel a little better about them; obviously they are never wolves with Varsoon.

[nancy]

Sorry if I'm wrong Varsoon.

[nancy]

[nancy]

They were just sheeping me, Varsoon.

And I asked Yeti privately to vote you.

[nancy]

Hold off on roleclaims please for the time being.

[nancy]

acidphoenix where are you at with reads ignoring the lack of a kill?

[nancy]

Porkens you ready to sheep me again?

[nancy]

Okay well I ~think~ I have the game solved but am going to hold my cards close to my chest for a while.

[nancy]

And by a while I mean, until I feel I've seen enough. Probably a couple days?

[nancy]

No one is perfect.

[nancy]

acid it's very unhelpful of you to come into thread at daystart and drop a vote on Dunker stating that you think you blocked him from performing the kill then peacing without talking about where you're at with the game outside of that, you're not a newbie so I think you should be aware that you don't have a hard guilty here. Please come back into thread and talk about where you're at with reads as locking down your slot's alignment looks like the last puzzle piece for me in solving this game, right now leaning towards you being town but I need a little help before I start pushing my scumread to feel more confident in where I'm at here.

[nancy]

Yeah, no claims right now please. I don't find the silence from acid that weird given how hard of a lurker he is, pretty frustrating that the gamestate can't move forward until he gets back and starts posting but I'm not sure what to do about that besides wait and hope it isn't a prod that brings him back.

Don't really wait to talk about reads / claims until I've had the chance to talk to acid.

[nancy]

Oink!

[nancy]

VOTE: dunkerdoodles

hardclaim xshot neighborizing jailkeeper

jk'd dunker

[nancy]

I can't stop you and it's testing my patience too but it will be easier to get a read on him if the waters aren't muddied and he's coming in cold, so would prefer not to give him any queues and see where he's at before moving forward. Also, other secret reasons that I'll talk about when I go over where I'm at with reads.

[nancy]

i also think dunk is scum for reasons unrelated to the jk or any sort of role actions.

In other words, for his posts?

[nancy]

Take you the wrong way?

[nancy]

Oh, right.

[nancy]

drealmer, when do you expect to be able to talk about why you want to lynch NK15?

[nancy]

Also would like to hear back re: your full reasoning on your early scumread on me, think you're at a stage now with your mental health and game involvement where you should be able to go over it all.

[nancy]

Well, we can go over why that's changed later; able to answer the question in past tense? When you do expect to be able to talk about you wanted to lynch him?

[nancy]

???

Can you stop being so fucking selfish please.

[nancy]

Sorry for being cranky, I just woke up.

It is selfish because you're not helping anyone else and you're playing according to your own terms and if anyone else's interests or needs don't line up with yours then it's too bad for them. I have a read on you that I'm trying to improve, I've asked you two questions that are very simple to answer and you've answered neither of them, instead you've answered a question I didn't ask that doesn't do anything for me, you're not working with me at all or giving me anything, it's incredibly unhelpful and borderline rude. Like I am never playing a game of mafia with you again if this is how you are going to play.

[nancy]

Well congrats you're related to my lynch pool.

[nancy]

Oh, well since you've said that, that resolves ALL my concerns, thanks!

[nancy]

Since acid is replacing out there's really nothing from stopping me from talking about where I'm at with stuff.

My first response to seeing the claim from acidphoenix was to scumread him for it because it makes very little sense to me why he would jailkeeper Dunker there when Dunker was in his "not lynch" pile and was also on the lynch wagon, Dunker looked more clear there to me from that interaction and wasn't wagoned at all day 1 so it looked like a very odd choice of shots from him if he's trying to stop the nightkill from mafia or clear a potential mislynch and think NK15 would have been a more sensible shot there since he looked very suspicious at EoD, was already widely scumread and was in acid's lynchpool. So understanding the world there for acidphoenix where he's jailkeeping Dunker thinking that's an optimal action for town is the only way I'm probably going to wrap my head around that night action.

One other thought about this that factors into the read is something I'll talk about later but overall when I think about acid as town making that action, coming into thread today and instantly claiming thinking he has a guilty, it's a very silly thing and there's really only one or two worlds where it makes sense to me and opposite to that if he is mafia then he's making some kind of last-ditch play to lynch a slot that looks decently clear but is definitely one of the easiest lynches here, which I think has a decent amount of credence but probably isn't the play he makes if he's mafia. I think the worlds where he's town are more likely the world we're in but I'm not at all confident in this read and hopefully going to see some good content from the replacement to solidify that read.

I'll be going over my reads on other slots as well when I have time, would very much like to hear from everyone with where you all are at with reads

except drealmer who I plan on policy lynching as the last thing I do this game.

[nancy]

I'm decently confident in northsidegal being town here. Think when I go back and dig into their joint ISOs the interactions between her and Varsoon feel pretty unaligned overall with specific interactions like 383/385/389, 470, 472, 561, 559/681/685/686 being the kind I'm looking at in favor of that take; there's a certain quality to Varsoon's tone that feels like he's invested in having nsg believe what he's telling her and getting her on his side, and for nsg's part she's taking issue with things that feel inarticulate and a little confused at times in a way that I think is less likely if she knows he's mafia, 470 I think stands out to me as something that feels like a very natural thing for town to feel about a post they can't quite get a read on but are bothered by and is just very unconvincing if you're mafia wanting to get anything out of pushing your bud.

There are some interactions that do feel aligned but I think when I take account of it all there are more of the first type and what stands above all of that is the vote on her at EoD which makes no sense at all if they are mafia together with the wagons how they are basically guaranteeing that your partner will be lynched when it was pretty 50/50 between her and NK15, putting a vote absolutely anywhere else would be better than voting your partner there and it was at a point where Varsoon didn't look even remotely like a viable lynch + the way they justified the vote as splitting the difference over her/NK15 so I don't think it's very plausible that they're mafia together here. Would still like to shore that read up by actually independently townreading her content but that's a not w/w read that I'm pretty comfortable with for now.

[nancy]

nancy, while there's basically a 0% chance you're mafia, that read while long doesn't really say anything, it's very open ended and you could easily use it as a case for or against acid.
what are your reads on nk15 and me?
i really think nk15's posts are forced, plus him not voting jabarkus yesterday is eh so.

I mean, it's my thoughts on acid's claim and what that means for his alignment, only way I'm going to be able to solve the game here is by putting my thoughts out there and seeing what thoughts everyone has put out and trying to work together to figure out which is the most likely scenario, I'm pretty ambivalent on acid and he hasn't done a lot this game, would like to have a stronger read on the slot but I don't. If you have any thoughts on it then feel free to share otherwise I'm not sure I understand why you think I should have more than "maybe town but I don't know"?

[nancy]

nancy, how can you simultaneously consider Dunkers as looking decently clear and also being one of the easiest lynches?

I'm talking about his skill as a player and how he's pretty much lynchbait, out of all the slots that I think are unlikely lynches here Dunker definitely seems like the obvious choice for where you'd push if you needed to lynch in a nascent townbloc in order to hope to have enough mislynches to win the game.

[nancy]

Like his naked vote on Varsoon there bailing on the counterwagon looks pretty clearing especially since I doubt Dunker thinks he has a hope of winning this game without Varsoon but it's not a "they're never ever wolves" type thing so I think the hope of lynching him would be a realistic one.

[nancy]

Only if we speedlynch you first.

[nancy]

So tell me how those wagons at EoD with Jabarkus voting his townread in NK15's counterwagon make sense to you if NK15 is town here? Because that's something I'm struggling to understand except as a blunder.

[nancy]

Wrt to drealmer it's a slot that I /want/ to clear and feel that his posting at EoD makes me feel like he's unaligned with Varsoon but when I really grok that it's not something I think I have a lot of confidence in and ends up just being more of a gut thing that I want to be true rather than something I would put a lot of stock in at the end of the day in terms of solid reasoning behind it. Probably only thing really stopping me from just caving into that and slotting him as not wolves with Varsoon here is a couple concerns I have about him from day 1 in the scumread on me which I still find pretty difficult to understand and which I don't think really follows from his language in the thread at the time and just his overall lack of doing anything at all to push the game anywhere or get reads for himself so far. He's at the back end of my lynchpool and not something I think has a huge chance of flipping mafia but he's definitely not a slot I'd want alive in endgame as long as he keeps playing like a policy lynch.

[nancy]

I wouldn't ever see it as a blunder just an attempt to skew how things look / sell the wifom

Why wouldn't you see it as a blunder? He has a townread on NK15, he obviously can't vote there since he's been hard defending the slot, he has a townread on northsidegal, if he joins either major wagon he's voting a townread, doesn't make sense as town there to vote nsg and he wasn't pushing alternatives, wasn't doing much at all to convince anyone that Yetichain was mafia, didn't look like he was desperately voting just anyone in order to prevent a no lynch. Unless he's mafia with NK15 that play is a blunder and is never optimal, if he's mafia with NK15 then it's a blunder that he let the gamestate get to that point but shy off defending NK15 more and subtly encouraging people to hop onto northsidegal he has no choice but to vote northsidegal there in order to save his bud.

[nancy]

I strongly townread Porkens independently of associatives and think associatives also point to him being unaligned with Varsoon.

[nancy]

I strongly scumread Yetichain and think the slot has a very high chance of flipping mafia here. I was reading them as unaligned with Varsoon for a lot of yesterday just because they were both hard pushing each other but I think that was very premature and simplistic of me and when I actually go back and dig into those interactions I don't think there's anything clearing about it at all; think the way that Varsoon talks to Yeti feels like he's just going through the motions and doesn't actually care about Yeti's opinion, there's a lot of jabbing and parrying there that I think makes more sense as a partnered interaction than them being unaligned and think if you compare the way Varsoon treated northsidegal and Yetichain they're very very different. Don't think the EoD vote on Varsoon is clearing since they were pretty much forced to vote him there or look very badly for it given that they they had stated him as their 2nd strongest scumread and I messaged them privately and asked them to vote him.

Think outside of her push on Varsoon Yetichain's done next to no scumhunting and what little there is feels very fake; I'm looking at 528 and not seeing anything except posturing there which is something I'm strongly scumreading and the "north could be mafia but I have to find out what her read of me is before I decide" is something that has a bunch of scum motivation and doesn't make sense as a thought process that Yeti is actually having if she's town here. Also think there's a mismatch in how much Yeti has been talking about how people are town and how people are scum with 958/960 being a good example of this, think the way they get a very accurate, borderline TMI read on Porkens in 960 is something that doesn't quite add up to me coming from someone who's been struggling to get an understanding of the game / their reads at that point because it displays a very nuanced appreciation of Porken's content up to that point and think it's just really unlikely for them to arrive at that if they're genuinely muddled but it makes a ton of sense if they're mafia and know that Porkens is town.

I'm also in a neighborhood with them and what made me go back to this read and reconsider it after starting to back off my scumread was some very TMI NKA they did in the hood which basically looked like them telling me exactly why they tried to nightkill Dunkerdoodles. Not going to elaborate on that any further.

Very confident on this slot being mafia.

Vote: Yetichain

[nancy]

Can other players please voice reads on dreal and Porkens? My preferred lynch is in there right now but I need to think more on it.

Also looking at this and not seeing where this scumread is coming from given their prior townread on Porkens.

[nancy]

958/960

Reference tags for 1006 above, forgot to put them in.

[nancy]

Welcome, garaputo.

[nancy]

The only thing that keeps sticking in my craw about NSG/Varsoon interaction was how Varsoon said "ok I have enough reasons to town read you now"

But that might have just been him playing weird as scum

Yeah I got that feeling too. I lean towards it just being poor play from him since I think the only scenario for them being wolves together is if Varsoon is hardbussing her very unnecessarily day 1 which doesn't make a ton of sense to me. Think it's a slot I'd reconsider in LyLo but probably not before then and hopefully I'm right on Yetichain here and the game ends with their lynch today so you don't have to think about it.

[nancy]

maybe it's just arrogant but I think town LUV would be more wanting to play with me than scum LUV

Think his replace out has precisely no relation to his alignment.

[nancy]

In terms of a readslist what all that looks like is

NK15
Dunkerdoodles
Porkens
northsidegal

drealmerz7
garaputo





Yetichain

[nancy]

northsidegal if you think Yetichain is town please address the reasoning I've put forth so far and talk about why you think I'm wrong there and what you're seeing differently to me. Think if you want to go over Varsoon<->Yetichain interactions post by post with me that would be helpful as I disagree that it makes Yetichain town if that's why you're townreading the slot but open to hearing why you think it does.

[nancy]

Thanks, that would be great. I agree that they could've justified not moving a vote there but I think the whole thing of me suddenly pushing hard on Varsoon and her getting a PM out of nowhere which would obviously be a role-related thing that she didn't understand make it likely that she's going to be putting a vote on him there in the surprise of it if nothing else, I agree that it's a misplay and I can understand why you might want to read it as them being unaligned, the language use of Varsoon in particular is something I labored over trying to figure out if votejockeying was something that I felt he'd say to a partner in that way, but I just don't think there's enough in that hop-on to outweigh everything else that I think pretty strongly points to them being mafia here.

[nancy]

didnt varsoon push yeti yesterday tho?

Yep.

[nancy]

The thing of particular relevance to me is that I don't think scum Yetichain makes this post, this early on in the game, voting scum Jabarkas Mayonnaise.

I mean it's not impossible, but if that was a staged thing to refer back to later, why hasn't now turned out to have been that later? I haven't seen it brought up recently (but may still have missed it).

I don't understand your point.

[nancy]

garaputo how many times have you seen mafia vote a partner early in the game then point back to that vote as a reason to read them as unaligned? I think everyone in the game including Yetichain would realize that it's very irrelevant.

[nancy]

Oh, uh.

*cough*

[nancy]

Have you seen it before though? Like where did that thought originate from?

[nancy]

Thanks, that makes sense. I can see how you're reading it that way and I don't think it's at all unreasonable to read it as >rand town in that way. I do think it's a touch odd that you assumed they hadn't referenced it without reading thread but that's probably not indicative of anything.

[nancy]

I miss not being the top poster in the game because other people actually care about solving the game.

[nancy]

I feel sick about townreading northsidegal because I scumread everything they post but they feel unaligned with Varsoon. Kill me god.

[nancy]

Open question to anyone who wants to answer: if you had one shot of either a Desperado or a Dayvig and had to shoot it right now which shot would you take, who would you shoot with it and why?

This question is a thinly veiled excuse for me to say that I would dayvig drealmerz7

[nancy]

you should say more things and so on

[nancy]

oops i meant to say that in the scum pt

[nancy]

#outed

[nancy]

Serious question: how many scum do you think are in this game.

At least 5. Must lynch them all.

#outed

I don't think this is funny.

I don't either, I'm just very very bored.

[nancy]

Wait, I think I missed something.

Nancy, how did you message Yeti?

Magic.

Or, uh, science?

[nancy]

I'll be surprised if NK15 isn't scum. I don't really get Nancy's case on Yeti.

Funny you say that because it's been very interesting to me how everyone seems to have dropped the idea of him being mafia, including myself.

I don't remember making a case on Yeti?

[nancy]

On that topic:
I didn't like how acid put forth role info so early 423 - as you question in 424 nor does the response from NK15 457 make me happy. I feel like Dunkerdoodles came down clearly on one side in 433 and I'm just trying to wrap my head around the "why" of what has already happened (and not happened).

I was trying to understand if there is a reason that acid chosen dunkerdoodles and then (other than perhaps just not being around) that acid didn't take advantage of the ability to communicate in the neighborhood.

You know you replaced acid right

[nancy]

That's just me blabbing about my read there.

It maybe looks like a case because I'm putting down a vote with it saying I'm confident?

[nancy]

So am presuming you're no longer in a hood with Dunker and nothing of note was discussed?

[nancy]

lol

[nancy]

Do you feel like going into that in more detail drealmer?

[nancy]

The only things you've said is that things are better not said.

[nancy]

So how do the wagons at EoD make sense to you in a world where NK15 is town? Because the biggest item that I'm trying to figure out here and not one I'm having a lot of progress with. Fmpov the only way that northsidegal vote makes sense is if either nsg or NK15 are mafia; I've kind of resigned to it potentially just not making any sense at all and being a huge blunder by Jabarkas but if it's going to actually make sense to me, unless someone puts out a take that I've not considered, then one of those two slots are scum.

[nancy]

Because there are worlds here where it's just a big fuckup from Jabarkas and it doesn't have to make sense to me to be what happened. Like, people do bad plays that are confusing.

These are the day end VCs btw.

VC 1.16

Not Known 15 (3):

acidphoenix, Dunkerdoodles, drealmerz7

northsidegal (2):

Not Known 15, Yetichain

acidphoenix (1):

nancy

Yetichain (1):

Jabarkas Mayonnaise

Jabarkas Mayonnaise (1):

northsidegal

Not Voting (1):

Porkens

VC 1.17

Not Known 15 (3):

acidphoenix, Dunkerdoodles, drealmerz7

northsidegal (3):

Not Known 15, Yetichain, Jabarkas Mayonnaise

acidphoenix (1):

nancy

Jabarkas Mayonnaise (1):

northsidegal

Not Voting (1):

Porkens

VC 1.18

Jabarkas Mayonnaise

(5):

northsidegal, nancy, Yetichain, Dunkerdoodles, Porkens

Not Known 15 (2):

acidphoenix, drealmerz7

northsidegal (2):

Not Known 15, Jabarkas Mayonnaise

Not Voting (0):

None.

[nancy]

Am not done sorting Yeti.

[nancy]

which is pretty much the exact same reason I slid to acid instead of NK15

Which reason are you referring to sorry?

[nancy]

ok I'll be over here lurking

Am not done sorting you either but I've already come to terms with how impossible that's going to be.

[nancy]

dunno why you need to sort yeti if your scum pile is elsewhere

you just lynch the scumpile and let whatever sorting, if necessary, happen in the meantime

Yeti is in my scumpile? And there's like 12 days left in the dayphase.

[nancy]

It's day 2 you fucking nerd!

[nancy]

What was it that you wanted to claim drealmer? Because that could potentially help me figure this out.

Also, there are role related reasons why I think it's maybe not NK15, that I've been alluding to but don't know how to talk about.

[nancy]

In fact that's the ONLY reason I haven't voted NK15 already.

[nancy]

I'm tempted to just ask NK15 to claim and clear this whole mess up.

[nancy]

I mean, there's no way I'm ending this dayphase without getting a claim from NK15 given how much my reads pivot on that. Regardless of whether that's because he's being wagoned or because he volunteers it.

[nancy]

unless I'm being foolish thinking there's just 1 scum left?

Midscummer's was scumsided but I don't think any mod in their right mind puts 3 scum in a micro.

[nancy]

Maybe, I doubt it, especially considering the claims we've seen so far I don't think town has a lot of power.

[nancy]

I also think that if Jabarkas is mafia NK15 is a good spot to start looking for their partner. If Jabarkas is mafia here and NK15 is town then the gamestate and wagons are favorable for them and they have no need to vote someone they have stated a townread on; if on the other hand Jabarkas is mafia with NK15 then the gamestate is more precarious for them and they need to push a counterwagon, northsidegal being the only viable option.

And in the world where the mafia team is Jabarkas/you then the reason he's allowed himself to do something as scummy as voting a townread is because he knows you flip mafia and it's a good look for him, it's an unnecessary bus but he's relatively scumread but the towncred from that helps him get to LyLo + maybe he's wrongfully cleared due to ninja, there's a believable route to endgame there for Varsoon as solo mafia.

[nancy]

I don't see why that information is pertinent to your claim?

[nancy]

Regardless, I didn't.

[nancy]

PS, northsidegal while we're waiting for him to claim it would be pretty helpful if you could go through Dunker's ISO and talk about why you think he's mafia here; just citing a few quotes that look like partner interactions is super unconvincing and hard to believe that you've gone through Jabarkas ISO and that's your biggest take there and you have nothing else to say about it or the game right now.

[nancy]

Why do you think that Varsoon was faking being upset when his emotion was pretty clearly real in twilight? I don't think the frustration that Varsoon displayed throughout the game was faked, his anger was pretty categorical and irrational and I'm not entirely sure that it would matter what alignment was pushing him.

How do you reconcile Dunker being mafia with him coming up with a super obscure reason why his partner may be mafia "or he's dumb"? That seems like a very bizarre thing to say about your partner but is a pretty natural thought to have as town. How do you reconcile Dunker being mafia with his jump onto the Jabarkas wagon at his first opportunity? How is he not just putting himself in autoloss?

You've cited 549 from Varsoon as part of the Dunker interaction but that's in response to me and is followed by Varsoon getting very upset. You've also not cited 1009, do you not think it's relevant?

[nancy]

You've said Varsoon would have to fake anger towards a scumbud in order to be consistent; I think if his anger is real then he's going to be feeling it regardless of who votes him. He clearly thinks through the whole game that any votes on him are wrong and mostly garbage. He seemed to genuinely believe that I was scumreading him for null behavior. When you're not really connected to reality in those kinds of ways I think it's pretty likely that it will extend to everything, including a partner voting you. I have gotten angry at scumpartners before and displayed that openly in the game thread. Only once or twice, but I'm nowhere near the kind of ragey player that Varsoon is. So I'm trying to understand why you think that's a thing that he'd have to fake.

You don't think that Dunker bussing Jabarkas there is an act of suicide or you think Dunker just made a horrible play?

[nancy]

1009 is not relevant, no.

Why not?

[nancy]

Sure, that makes sense, but he didn't think the votes were bad just because he thought the reasoning was bad, he thought they were bad because he just wanted to play the game. He was very adamant about this point. A partner bussing him would prevent him from playing the game and therefore also arouse his ire, no?

I asked you first!

Please answer the question about Dunker bussing; willful suicide or Dunker so bad he doesn't realize he can't win without Varsoon?

[nancy]

Why should it have been crystal clear to him in particular? If it was, doesn't that make sense as a possible reason why he didn't explode at Dunker?

1009 is a post where Varsoon gets angry at Dunker, which you've said the absence of is a reason why they're partners.

[nancy]

Meh. Leaning towards this being something you actually believe but /shrug.

[nancy]

So anyway, Dunker is mafia and that's it? We should all sheep you?

[nancy]

So anyway, Dunker is mafia and that's it? We should all sheep you?

???

[nancy]

Who is this mystery woman of crystals

[nancy]

Yeah it's you misreading the tone of my post / me writing poorly. I'm looking for where you're at with your reads overall and how your Dunker scumread plays into your take on the game right now. You don't come off as anything which is what concerns me, you've stated a scumread on Dunker but not really done anything towards pushing him, you don't seem to have any other reads, I've dug into your Dunker read quite a bit and your reasoning there is all over the place and looks very selective in terms of what you're reading into to arrive at the scumread, I'd expect if you had this kind of read as town where your reasoning wasn't very sound but you really believed in it to overcome that and work yourself into the read then you'd be a lot more of sure where you're at right now but I'm seeing pretty much nothing from you.

[nancy]

VOTE: Woman of Crystals

Very sheepable.

[nancy]

in what way? i've stated my case on dunk – he hasn't even been around since that, so what exactly do you expect me to be doing?

Sorting people? Producing content? Anything really. Like, you're in the PoE here, if you're town you should know that's problematic, so what are you doing to get yourself out of it? Like what kind of expectations do you have for yourself this game? If you're wrong on Dunker where do you go? If you're wrong on Yeti what does that mean? Are you able to answer those questions? I'm not actually asking for answers here, those are hypothetical, but these are the kind of questions I'd be asking myself and that I've been asking you because you don't seem to be asking yourself.

I realize this is mafiascum and no one cares but I have higher expectations of you as a player than most people here and you're not meeting them and none of my concerns about your alignment here are really being alleviated. Yes you have stated your case on Dunkerdoodles and you townread Porkens/Yeti. The game doesn't end there though and your reads on those players shouldn't end there either. I think you know this.

[nancy]

i am asking myself those questions, i have answers to them, and i do care about this game. it's clear to me that i take a much more restrained or closed approach than you do when it comes to revealing my thought process.

What I've seen of your towngames has been very transparent and openly thoughtful.

[nancy]

Are you quoting nsg, Porkens?

[nancy]

Like, she's allowed to play differently in one game to the next, I'm not asking her to play a certain way and I don't have perfect knowledge of her meta by any means, but the statement in 1239 seems kind of directly controverted by the towngames of hers that I've seen? And it's like, okay, even if that's true, it doesn't help me get a better read on her alignment. Saying you're doing a lot of work in the background doesn't mean much unless I can actually see it and if it's there I don't understand why you wouldn't want to share it.

[nancy]

hopefully by the end of this game i can either change that

I hope so too! But I treat every day like LyLo so for me the end of the dayphase /is/ the end of the game.

Like, if you're town here I want to be able to see that. And how I'm going to be able to see it is by you doing things and talking about where you're at with reads. Idk how many games you're in right now but you may want to scale back a little if you don't have the time/motivation to put in what each game needs.

[nancy]

No massclaim.

[nancy]

It's far too early and completely unnecessary.

[nancy]

Why do you think massclaim helps town here?

[nancy]

*twiddle*

[nancy]

FUCKING LOL

[nancy]

FUCK.

ING.

LOL.

[nancy]

Vote: northsidegal

[nancy]

Because Jarbakas( who was scum) didn't want a massclaim, and I think that indicates that scum have to lose something to a massclaim. Whether it is info or sth else, dunno.

Pretty sure that's just Varsoon spinning the typical pro-town line.

[nancy]

It's complicated. I'll let you know. Has to do with hood stuff.

[nancy]

Nope. I'm not in a hood with her.

[nancy]

My northsidegal read is just stronger than my Yetichain read at this point.

[nancy]

Where are you at with reads NK15?

[nancy]

While you're at it, why did you counterclaim acid? Neighborizer isn't remotely a counterclaimable role so what made you think your role couldn't exist with his? And why'd you drop it so immediately when Varsoon jumped down your throat?

[nancy]

Are you frozen? What's up?

[nancy]

K gr8 good talk team.

[nancy]

Eh, I can see the advantage of a massclaim to figure out if there was something else that could've blocked the kill I guess.

thinking face

[nancy]

Everyone should pop in wolfily to give their take on NK15's claim.

[nancy]

[nancy]

1297 is something I expect more from mafia, yeah. The tone of the post in particular rings false to me, but I am a bad tone reader I think. I will say that Varsoon asking me why Dunker was VI over NK15 and not following up on that bothered me at the time and has continued to stick in my mind but is not something I would put much weight on.

[nancy]

Yeti's explanation for the no-kill is that she thought that NK15 crumbed hider targeting Dunker, mafia picked up on the crumb, and shot at Dunker in the hopes of a double kill.

[nancy]

I am falling asleep at my desk. Bed time.

[nancy]

Vote: Dunkerdoodles

Jail Yetichain tonight the slot is wolfy as fuck.

[nancy]

Dunker I'm sorry but nothing you're doing is remotely town and I'm overtired and busy with another game now so this one is on the backburner for me. If there's some reason anyone should be townreading you please fill me in.

[nancy]

Unvote

That was a really premature claim honey. Can you do town things please like talk about reads. Also I don't understand how you're thinking that NK15 tried to kill you because he was afraid of your tunnel, you've not even voted him today and there were other more scary people who were suspicious of him like me, scaryrawr.

[nancy]

2) Dunkerdoodles was the target of the kill.

The more I reread day 1, the less likely 2 feels to me.

Why?

[nancy]

I miss drealmer

[nancy]

Well I'm at

drealmerz7, Porkens
Dunkerdoodles
Not Known 15, northsidegal
Yetichain
garaputo

So the main difference is Yeti and tbh I don't really want to lynch outside the bottom 2.

[nancy]

Vote: garaputo

May as well start a Christmas wagon.

Happy holidays everyone!

[nancy]

Why you shrugging boy

[nancy]

You are not very excited about the wagon?