DEFCON Mafia 5.0: GAME OVER - NEW AMERICA FORMED

[Alisae]

I threw extremely hard and forgot to abort the nuke

[SirCakez]

In response to Prism:

I am happy to hold a discussion of my moderation choices in this game and going forwards.

I was put in an extremely difficult place with what to do with several players in this game, obviously including Reck and Koto who have both been banned now, but also other players who were not respectful.
I do not like to force-replace players if at all possible because it compromises game integrity and opens up a can of worms that spirals very quickly.
My route of moderation has always been public warning -> private warning -> force replacement. This system has always worked for me in the past and I've avoided ever needing to force replace someone myself while still keeping players generally happy.
I followed that here with the warnings I issued. In all cases, players toned down their problem behaviors and/or later apologized following the warnings. Had Reck or Koto or anyone else resumed the behavior, I would have progressed following that line.
I consulted two other mods in the case of Reck and both advised me to issue a warning instead of a force-replacement. With Koto I did the same. Personally, I felt the comments of both were completely unacceptable (particularly Koto's comments regarding disabled people), but I also feel that certain leeway has to be given while playing mafia in order to avoid situations where players feel they are being treated unfairly. I also like to believe that people can improve; that if they are told what they are doing is wrong, that they will cut the behavior out. I will use the recent example of where I was berated by Menalque in Deja Vu Mafia; he later apologized to me in postgame and we are now back on good terms. I have said things I later regretted like all people have.

Obviously what I did here were not the right choices as they both later ended up being banned but at the time I had to make a judgement call with the information I had on hand

Would I do the same in hindsight? Obviously not. But at the time, I did what I felt was the best way to address the behavior without ruining game integrity.
In the future, I'd probably just go straight to the listmods and consult them.

I am totally open to others' thoguhts about what I can do to improve in the future.
Prism - I'm deeply sorry that you were hurt by the actions of players in this game and by my decision to not force-replace some people. I hope we will still be on good terms around site but I accept your thoughts and decision on this matter.

[Menalque]

I think u might be scum >.>

y tho

You're doing the thing where u orient around me

~ skitter

fwiw i think this is a p damning tell for scum-you in a game that i'm in

i wasn't keeping up that much while i was alive really else i probably would have pushed it a lot more

Yeah I was kind of counting on you being sufficiently drained from perpetual that you wouldn’t be too up my ass about it even if you did have me caught

I’m gonna have to think about how to not do this when I’m scum against you in future

[Alisae]

i think that nuking your own partner like that is p close to a throw tbh

I got too caught up with a WIFOM play that I forgot clears existed.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i think that nuking your own partner like that is p close to a throw tbh

I got too caught up with a WIFOM play that I forgot clears existed.

yeah I'm not sure killing fighter was an option there

like you know me, I'm the queen of loving weird spacing kills to throw town off balance but

cop->doc scenario is.... very very bad and you gotta handle it quick.

Especialy with 4 dead evil people of 6.

[Menalque]

Ali you were a wonderful hydra partner and one day I will give you the hydra partner performance u deserve in return

[SirCakez]

I think some sort of standardized guides from the Listmods on when to force-replace, when to warn, and when to go to the listmods would be extremely helpful. I was totally on my own here, and was relying on others to help me with these decisions.

[Alisae]

Interception takes 24 hours which I think Alisae didn't realize.

I thought it was 12 hours as well.
I legit got demotivated and stopped paying attention to the thread.

I only realized that nuking Bingle for the wifom play was a throw a bit after I did it and I broke under IV's pressure when I shouldn't have because I was recalling what actually happened and if I just let it play it it was fine.

[T3]

Good game, I did nothing.

[Alisae]

i think that nuking your own partner like that is p close to a throw tbh

I got too caught up with a WIFOM play that I forgot clears existed.

yeah I'm not sure killing fighter was an option there

like you know me, I'm the queen of loving weird spacing kills to throw town off balance but

cop->doc scenario is.... very very bad and you gotta handle it quick.

Especialy with 4 dead evil people of 6.

The fighter kill was a way of handling it and trying to get people to nuke them and suspect them but it didn't work out.

[Prism]

I understand your perspective for why you chose not to forcereplace them and appreciated the response; at some point we simply disagree which is why I did not continue it via PM. The purpose of my post is that I wanted to make it clear that failing to protect your players has consequences that do not disappear when the game is over: that people will both replace out, and consecutively not sign up for, your games in the future.

This does not extend to you as a player or person, and is only speaking for myself (and no one else) on you as a moderator.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Interception takes 24 hours which I think Alisae didn't realize.

I thought it was 12 hours as well.
I legit got demotivated and stopped paying attention to the thread.

I only realized that nuking Bingle for the wifom play was a throw a bit after I did it and I broke under IV's pressure when I shouldn't have because I was recalling what actually happened and if I just let it play it it was fine.

Yeah you 100% could have just done a deny deny deny thign and been fine.

Like "oh I just assumed it was obvious" or something.

fits your personality, sounds right

you def. didn't have to fall to that. but we all live and learn from mistakes ye?

I don't think it would have been enough to win this game regardless but it definitely sealed it.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I understand your perspective for why you chose not to forcereplace them and appreciated the response; at some point we simply disagree which is why I did not continue it via PM. The purpose of my post is that I wanted to make it clear that failing to protect your players has consequences that do not disappear when the game is over: that people will both replace out, and consecutively not sign up for, your games in the future.

This does not extend to you as a player or person, and is only speaking for myself (and no one else) on you as a moderator.

I'm really curious what you would have done in Cakez's shoes here.

Like what would you have done about the things in this game and what do you feel wasn't done?

[SirCakez]

I understand your perspective for why you chose not to forcereplace them and appreciated the response; at some point we simply disagree which is why I did not continue it via PM. The purpose of my post is that I wanted to make it clear that failing to protect your players has consequences that do not disappear when the game is over: that people will both replace out, and consecutively not sign up for, your games in the future.

This does not extend to you as a player or person, and is only speaking for myself (and no one else) on you as a moderator.

I understand this and appreciate your perspective and thoughts.

[Prism]

Skimming the dead PT, I also want to take a moment to quote this.

I am saying Mastina is scum... And also her playstyle needs a yeet out of this game to learn a lesson.

Infact this is a lesson that Prism taught me in an argument we were having so I don't know why Prism is so upset.

I don't know what you're referring to here specifically. My guess is that it is my discussion of how the site meta has not adapted to figure out how to punish hyperposters,

which was not encouraging policying them but for the site to strategically come up with ways to counteract or circumvent its effectiveness.

For any other reason, I am not above using threat of a policy as an incentive to change behavior midgame, and I have my own problems with not treating players with an adequate level of respect that to be frank is happening with a disturbingly increased frequency. While circumstantially different, those were still wrong and I would have appreciated intervention.

That said, regardless of source, if the lesson you learned from me is to policy players whose playstyle you dislike, even before they become a problem, I sincerely wish that you unlearn it as quickly as possible.

I want to make that clear but really don't want to continue this further as the conversation has shifted to be more about the substantive issues with the slot. Feel free to take the last word but unless you explicitly require a response from me I will leave it there.

My perspective is unchanged. If that was your takeaway from our conversation it is unfortunate.

[Alisae]

Interception takes 24 hours which I think Alisae didn't realize.

I thought it was 12 hours as well.
I legit got demotivated and stopped paying attention to the thread.

I only realized that nuking Bingle for the wifom play was a throw a bit after I did it and I broke under IV's pressure when I shouldn't have because I was recalling what actually happened and if I just let it play it it was fine.

Yeah you 100% could have just done a deny deny deny thign and been fine.

Like "oh I just assumed it was obvious" or something.

fits your personality, sounds right

you def. didn't have to fall to that. but we all live and learn from mistakes ye?

I don't think it would have been enough to win this game regardless but it definitely sealed it.

Ya, that actually sounds better haha.
I saw those IV posts I panicked you really do need a cool head to play this alignment and I feel like that's pretty hard for me to maintain tbh

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Skimming the dead PT, I also want to take a moment to quote this.

I am saying Mastina is scum... And also her playstyle needs a yeet out of this game to learn a lesson.

Infact this is a lesson that Prism taught me in an argument we were having so I don't know why Prism is so upset.

I don't know what you're referring to here specifically. My guess is that it is my discussion of how the site meta has not adapted to figure out how to punish hyperposters,

which was not encouraging policying them but for the site to strategically come up with ways to counteract or circumvent its effectiveness.

For any other reason, I am not above using threat of a policy as an incentive to change behavior midgame, and I have my own problems with not treating players with an adequate level of respect that to be frank is happening with a disturbingly increased frequency. While circumstantially different, those were still wrong and I would have appreciated intervention.

That said, regardless of source, if the lesson you learned from me is to policy players whose playstyle you dislike, even before they become a problem, I sincerely wish that you unlearn it as quickly as possible.

I want to make that clear but really don't want to continue this further as the conversation has shifted to be more about the substantive issues with the slot. Feel free to take the last word but unless you explicitly require a response from me I will leave it there.

My perspective is unchanged. If that was your takeaway from our conversation it is unfortunate.

I would still like to know what your solution to the problem is.

Like, I accept that you think my solution was not optimal. So I'm really wondering what yours would be instead.

[Save The Dragons]

toxicity bad (and weird that it happened so much?)

game good, gg all

thank you cakez

[SirCakez]

Frankly I don't think there is a "best" solution. In an ideal world, I could just force-replace anyone who is toxic and be done with it. But that's not how it works because I'd have force-replaced half of the players in this game.

[Prism]

I have said what I wanted to and have no further comment for either of your questions.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Interception takes 24 hours which I think Alisae didn't realize.

I thought it was 12 hours as well.
I legit got demotivated and stopped paying attention to the thread.

I only realized that nuking Bingle for the wifom play was a throw a bit after I did it and I broke under IV's pressure when I shouldn't have because I was recalling what actually happened and if I just let it play it it was fine.

Yeah you 100% could have just done a deny deny deny thign and been fine.

Like "oh I just assumed it was obvious" or something.

fits your personality, sounds right

you def. didn't have to fall to that. but we all live and learn from mistakes ye?

I don't think it would have been enough to win this game regardless but it definitely sealed it.

Ya, that actually sounds better haha.
I saw those IV posts I panicked you really do need a cool head to play this alignment and I feel like that's pretty hard for me to maintain tbh

It's sometimes better not to post until you know what you want to happen.

Like IV brought that up right? So until you actually made a post, you didn't need to respond, you could have been away.

So you could have taken your time to just... think about it, think what would be bought as a statement, and move forward

[SirCakez]

Yeah Ali I agree with what LLD said above. I think you just panicked a little and it cost you. Such is life.

[skitter30]

also thanks ss for hydra-ing with me :)

i agree with lld too ^

[JohnnyFarrar]

Fwiw the last 40 pages or so were a blast

[SirCakez]

Oh yes much thanks to my very late replacement saviors Johnny and Bingle for coming in with over 150 pages and giving it their best shots.