biancospino's Mini Normal Review, March 2023 (Released)

[Datisi]

TA-enabler lazy traitor + town TA (on top of jk/watcher stuff) would also be fine, i think.

i don't think "town roles get confimed via their claim" is actually an issue. in fact, it seems pretty necessary for balance, considering the town feels pretty weak still.

[biancospino]

Hmh, I see. If there is no actual need for red herrings, then yes, I'm fine with dropping them.

---

WOLVES

1 Werewolf Alien-Enabler disloyal Unstoppable
1 Werewolf Watcher-Ebabler Ninja
1 TA-Enabler Bulletproof Tracker lazy Traitor

VILLAGE

1 Jailkeeper
1 Watcher
2 Informed novice TAs [there is a Traitor]
1 multitasking TA-Finder Tracker-Finder
5 VTs

---

Or maybe even drop the Finder, it's there mainly to sligthly strengthening town by helping to avoid the issue that if both TAs claim that could result in a mislim chain

[biancospino]

Hmh, I see. If there is no actual need for red herrings, then yes, I'm fine with dropping them.

---

WOLVES

1 Werewolf Jailkeeper-Enabler disloyal Unstoppable
1 Werewolf Watcher-Ebabler Ninja
1 TA-Enabler Bulletproof Tracker lazy Traitor

VILLAGE

1 Jailkeeper
1 Watcher
2 Informed novice TAs [there is a Traitor]
1 multitasking TA-Finder Tracker-Finder
5 VTs

---

Or maybe even drop the Finder, it's there mainly to sligthly strengthening town by helping to avoid the issue that if both TAs claim that could result in a mislim chain

EBWOP

[Datisi]

i would recommend against putting in two novice TAs. i'm not sure if this is balanced, but i *do* know it's very swingy. it's impossible to know in advance whether both will be believed or if they'll start getting eliminated, whether they'll be able to get any useful results or if a scum will die before they're able to get anything, etc etc...

while "in theory" a setup like this could be balanced, in practice it's likely to turn out either too townsided or too scumsided, depending on how the game plays out.

if you're fine with that possibility, we can work on making a setup like this balanced. but i would recommend against it

[biancospino]

The more I think about it the less I understand why I felt the need to gate the TA(s) with novice...
What if, the TA were ungated and there were a more overtly useful Finder;

---

WOLVES

1 Werewolf JK-Enabler disloyal Unstoppable
1 Werewolf Watcher-Ebabler Ninja
1 TA-Enabler Bulletproof Tracker lazy Traitor

VILLAGE

1 Jailkeeper
1 Watcher
1 Informed TAs [there is a Traitor]
1 multitasking BP-Finder Informed-Finder
6 VTs

---

This way the Finder can get a pseudoguilty on the Traitor with the BP check.

Alternatively, what if the TAs were informed of such shenanigan:

WOLVES

1 Werewolf JK-Enabler disloyal Unstoppable
1 Werewolf Watcher-Ebabler Ninja
1 TA-Enabler Bulletproof Tracker lazy Traitor

VILLAGE

1 Jailkeeper
1 Watcher
2 Informed (novice?) TAs [there are two non-Vanilla Village players with the same role (or maybe even there are two Village TAs)]
1 multitasking TA-Finder Tracker-Finder
5 VTs

PUBLIC INFO

There is a Traitor

[Datisi]

i think the second one veers into too townsided, as it turns the TAs into masons basically.

it's up to mastina though, as she's the primary. so i'll wait for her thoughts now.

[mastina]

mastina, do you think a setup like the one in 19 or 21 would be passable as normal, considering the number of enablers it has? i'm leaning on "no", but i'm not sure if i'm being too strict

I think 4

might

be passable as normal, at least situationally. Five or more is almost certainly going too far imo.

Ideally, it'd be three or less tho.

[mastina]

RE: balance of the setups in 29, the first looks too scumsided, since the town's power roles are too countered by the scum.

The second is the opposite imo, as it does indeed give the town

too

much power.

[biancospino]

What if I alter the JK to something stronger (this deviates from the og Unstoppable+JK idea, but little enough that I would still like it)

WOLVES

1 Werewolf Alien-Enabler disloyal Unstoppable
1 Werewolf Watcher-Ebabler Ninja
1 TA-Enabler Bulletproof disloyal Rolestopper lazy Traitor

VILLAGE

1 disloyal Alien
1 Watcher
1 Informed TA [there is a Traitor]
1 multitasking BP-Finder Informed-Finder Ninja-Finder
1 Ninja FruitVendor
5 VTs

---

That way the Alien has a lot of synergies with the other TPRs. The Finder is also stronger.
To counterbalance I've changed the Track to a disloyal Rolestop, which may mess things up a bit, and added something useless to act as a false positive for the Ninja-Finder (thou if that is still too scumsided, what if it was a Ninja Neighborizer instead? I get that it would be mostly the same thing, but maybe it sounds slightly more town-y)

[biancospino]

Thinking about it, I see that if the Unstoppable gets executed D1 then that would vanificate most of the Village power at once, which is probably unfun. What if I split the Finder's power:

WOLVES

1 Werewolf Alien-Enabler disloyal Unstoppable
1 Werewolf Watcher-Ebabler Ninja
1 TA-Enabler Bulletproof disloyal Rolestopper lazy Traitor

VILLAGE

1 disloyal Alien
1 Watcher
1 Informed TA [there is a Traitor]
1 multitasking BP-Finder Ninja-Finder
1 Ninja multitasking Enabler-Finder Informed-Finder
5 VTs

[mastina]

34 is definitely townsided by a large margin.
Disloyal Alien shuts the scum down entirely (especially given a traitor), and can create follow the cop with the other TPRs--if the TPRs target the disloyal Alien target, them getting a result hard-clears them, elevating the investigatives to full-cops.

Multitasking invest for what are obviously scum roles is also rather strong.

[biancospino]

Yeah, I'm not sure why I thought that could be a good idea (thou I was under the impression that an Unstoppable would pierce a disloyal Alien's block).

WOLVES

1 Werewolf Jailkeeper-Enabler disloyal Unstoppable
1 Werewolf Watcher-Enabler Ninja
1 TA-Enabler Bulletproof Tracker lazy Traitor

VILLAGE

1 Jailkeeper
1 Watcher
1 Informed TA [there is a Traitor]
1 multitasking BP-Finder Finder-Finder
1 multitasking Enabler-Finder Informed-Finder
5 VTs

(Incidentally, I'm using stuff like Enabler-Finder and I'm not really sure that's it is actually normal since Enabler is not actually a role on its own)

[Datisi]

one thing that i am kind of worried about

"lazy traitor" is a role that hasn't ever been used (iirc). i don't think even the most normals-savvy players are gonna think of the possibility of that role existing.

so, in the event that two main scum flip, and the game is not yet over, AND the TA outs the info that there is a traitor in the game - i fear people might start thinking they're dealing with a 4-person scumteam. and sure, that is gonna get disproved once they get to final 3, but i feel like it would wreak havoc on the game in the meantime.

so i would potentially make it public information that there are 3 players aligned with the mafia.

though that brings its own problems, maybe they'd think the TA is lying if two main scum flip and they claim there's a traitor and the game doesn't end...

[Datisi]

enabler-finder feels like it might become a cop if scum starts flipping and there's a good mech player in town who can deduce the roles of the other scum

[biancospino]

one thing that i am kind of worried about

"lazy traitor" is a role that hasn't ever been used (iirc). i don't think even the most normals-savvy players are gonna think of the possibility of that role existing.

so, in the event that two main scum flip, and the game is not yet over, AND the TA outs the info that there is a traitor in the game - i fear people might start thinking they're dealing with a 4-person scumteam. and sure, that is gonna get disproved once they get to final 3, but i feel like it would wreak havoc on the game in the meantime.

so i would potentially make it public information that there are 3 players aligned with the mafia.

though that brings its own problems, maybe they'd think the TA is lying if two main scum flip and they claim there's a traitor and the game doesn't end...

Uhm, I can see that being a problem; though tbh I would more fine with the Village temporaneally assuming assuming wrongly about the setup composition than them ending up with a slot they believe to be 100% guilty on mech who isn't -- if anything because I worry they would feel more cheated in the second scenario. I don't want players to think I'm just screwing with them.

What if I give the TA two separate informations:
* There is Traitor
* There is a player aligned with the Wolves with the lazy modifier
That way they may not be completely blindsighted.

enabler-finder feels like it might become a cop if scum starts flipping and there's a good mech player in town who can deduce the roles of the other scum

What if all the Finders were one-shot?

[biancospino]

What if all the Finders were one-shot?

Or, sequester the more useful Finder abilities into a JoaT, so to gate the Enabler one in particular

1 multitasking Informed-Finder Finder-Finder
1 JoaT (BP-Finder, Enabler-Finder)

[mastina]

"lazy traitor" is a role that hasn't ever been used (iirc).

It indeed has not been used, but a traitor with a mafia traitor-enabler has. (Same effect basically.)

Personally, I don't think that a traitor changing to a Goon should be allowed--but my personal opinion there can't stop me from doing my job (I can't say 'no' to a setup on the basis of me not liking the interaction and believing it shouldn't exist, when the interaction is legal; implosion explicitly gave the green light to a traitor with a traitor-enabler becoming groupscum and 'lazy' is identical in effect).

Basically I don't like the interaction; I don't think it should be legal. But despite my opinion, it IS legal, and because it IS legal, I can't say no to it (even if I want to).


With that in mind, 36 is legal, and closer to balanced imo, but still townsided.

Having the two finder roles as they are is the main issue.

My first suggestion is to break them up to have different mechanics/modifiers.
One idea would be to remove multitasking from one (and have it keep the unlimited shots), and keep multitasking on the other (but gate it, either on night or in shots).

E.g. hypothetically,
1 multitasking 2x BP-Finder 2x Finder-Finder
1 Enabler-Finder Informed-Finder

or

1 multitasking nonconsecutive BP-Finder nonconsecutive Finder-Finder
1 Enabler-Finder Informed-Finder

or

1 multitasking even-night BP-Finder even-night Finder-Finder
1 Enabler-Finder Informed-Finder

or

1 multitasking N2+3 BP-Finder N2+3 Finder-Finder
1 Enabler-Finder Informed-Finder

etc.

(Something along those lines. Which finder is which totally arbitrary.)

[biancospino]

The Enabler-Finder is likely the stronger, so it does need some gating probably. What if I make one multitasking and the other odd/even.
(And, thinking about it, giving some sort of hint to the TA is probably a good idea)

WOLVES

1 Werewolf Jailkeeper-Enabler disloyal Unstoppable
1 Werewolf Watcher-Enabler Ninja
1 TA-Enabler Bulletproof Tracker lazy Traitor

VILLAGE

1 Jailkeeper
1 Watcher
1 Informed TA

• There is a Traitor.
  
• There is a player with the lazy modifier.

1 multitasking 2-shots BP-Finder 2-shots Finder-Finder
1 even-nights Enabler-Finder odd-nights Informed-Finder
5 VTs

[biancospino]

@Implo, can furtiveglance be added to this PT? He's my backup-mod

[implosion]

He should have access already.

[biancospino]

uhhh... prodding @mastina?

[furtiveglance]

Hi. I know I'm not a reviewer but I'd go with 4 town PR max in a Mini Normal. If I rolled scum and there were 5 PRs I'd feel a bit hard done by, especially since one of my team is a Traitor.

Also, would the Wolves be informed of the Traitor or who it is?

[biancospino]

Also, would the Wolves be informed of the Traitor or who it is?

They would know they have a Traitor, at least I think that must be per normal guidelines; but not who they are.

The Traitor is actually supposed to

help

scum in the setup, as they're essentially a TA-godfather and they become a full-fledged wolf instead of being endgamed if they are last wolf standing, and 3 of the TPRs are hard-countered by stuff the wolf team has, but I can see the wolves not knowing that and perhaps feeling a bit cheated. I guess one can solve that by removing the dupliced Finders and giving the village something else instead, but then my worry is that if that PR dies early the rest of the setup is quite heavily wolfleaning

[mastina]

First thought on 42 is it's probably good, but I'd like Datisi to take a look over it as well.

[Datisi]

Hi. I know I'm not a reviewer but I'd go with 4 town PR max in a Mini Normal. If I rolled scum and there were 5 PRs I'd feel a bit hard done by, especially since one of my team is a Traitor.

you can't be thinking of it in terms of solely "is a TPR" or "is not a TPR".

i'll look at the setup in 42, one sec