I am leaning towards ani because I don't think enchant and ower stuff was theatre.
I need to read back though. I just have a pretty set meta of enchant in my head as scum and town and this does not really look like enchant scum. If he IS scum here he's significantly different from how I expect him to be, which is not impossible but just you know. Meh.
My opinion is that i will quickhammer you if Shea votes.
BUT if you vote Shea and spare me some headache proving self, i quickhammer you a little slower. And maybe, just maybe i will consider voting Shea. Maybe. Probably (no).
You can't really do anything with it, but you may try. Who i am to stop you. But you need hell of arguments like being innocent child.
Wizard-Mercenary
You need replacement/players ASAP? PM me! I almost always accept.
Well, early on (D1/D2) I saw OWER piggybacking on DE/Roden’s push on me, and I called it out. OWER then repeatedly tried to push me for elimination in retaliation, while still continuing to piggyback on votes and trying to fly under the radar about it.
It started really coming to a head around when Roden got killed, because OWER used it as reasoning to push me even further (because my read on Roden was incorrect, and because the person I was pushing had been killed). I thought that was extra suspicious and tunneled onto OWER because of it (enough to think that a tenuous association with THS was a good reason to kill in addition to the odd night actions).
I thought OWER was trying to frame me with the nightkills (Black, who had switched her read on me right before she died, and Roden), and it turns out I was probably right about that.
Hi, I'm Annie! Please have patience with me—I am disabled.
Also, here’s the issue, Shea: if I trust that you know what you’re talking about, it means that Enchant probably isn’t scum—which leaves you as the only possibility left.
Hi, I'm Annie! Please have patience with me—I am disabled.
Which sucks, because Enchant has been my focus for a lot of this endgame—and I just kind of defaulted to you being a townie without fully considering the lack of evidence.
I keep on going back to how Enchant has been very talkative and directful, but sometimes leads us astray, while you haven’t really had a lot of moments of any of that. Perhaps I’ve been confusing null for “not scum” instead of “not anything.”
Hi, I'm Annie! Please have patience with me—I am disabled.
24 was really bad and I don't see a town motivation to post it.
DE's normally like that, I don't think 24 is alignment indicative
24 also caught my eye on my initial readthrough (though not to the same intensity as Wartortle is making out). But unless you're bold enough to defend your partner's bad page one post on page two, I'll take this as face value.
So, what else? Wartortle scum for continuing to push this narrative even when there's new evidence to work against it?
VOTE: Wartortle
I was not pushing a narrative but if you wanted an example of what that would look like you can use this post.
VOTE: TheHoldSteady
In post 195, OutWorldER wrote:
i'd think up a funny response to enchant's opening but I have to go to work so all the funny has left my body.
Anyways I do have to go to work so offline until tomorrow, I'm in agreement with BlackStar actually that I think 168 puts a lot of defensiveness in context and sounds like a genuinely frustrated townie, though one that I think is jumping the gun a little bit.
I think I'm gonna park my vote on Hu Tao while I'm at work because her intro and subsequent disappearance didn't exactly enthuse me towards the slot and I like pressuring lurkers D1.
In post 241, OutWorldER wrote:
That said I'm also a little bit weird on Naerys at this point as I find it strange that she brings up post 20 as her reason for SRing Wartortle but only started pushing that read recently. I don't feel like that lines up with Naerys own opening in 39 and 41.
Hm, I would like to share a theory of mine: I think Naerys’s read changing on Wartortle is likely due to 216, since it’s the only post before hers to directly mention 20 at all. We know her read on him changed because in 68 she agreed with him enough to change her vote accordingly.
If this is the case, it likely means one of these two possibilities is true:
a) She saw my post and honestly thought it a convincing case in addition to everything else said on Wartortle, and thus switched her tune on him—in this case, her flipping her reads when other people present counter arguments likely means she is struggling to properly sort anyone out yet.
b) She saw that I was townreading her earlier in 160 and is hoping to get a pocket on me by sheeping my reads. I think that this would make the most sense out of the two options if we take 199 as a correct observation.
In post 241, OutWorldER wrote:
That said I'm also a little bit weird on Naerys at this point as I find it strange that she brings up post 20 as her reason for SRing Wartortle but only started pushing that read recently. I don't feel like that lines up with Naerys own opening in 39 and 41.
Hm, I would like to share a theory of mine: I think Naerys’s read changing on Wartortle is likely due to 216, since it’s the only post before hers to directly mention 20 at all. We know her read on him changed because in 68 she agreed with him enough to change her vote accordingly.
If this is the case, it likely means one of these two possibilities is true:
a) She saw my post and honestly thought it a convincing case in addition to everything else said on Wartortle, and thus switched her tune on him—in this case, her flipping her reads when other people present counter arguments likely means she is struggling to properly sort anyone out yet.
b) She saw that I was townreading her earlier in 160 and is hoping to get a pocket on me by sheeping my reads. I think that this would make the most sense out of the two options if we take 199 as a correct observation.
VOTE: AnimatedWiz
So I’m getting the sense that you don’t agree with my theory—all fine and good.
As just a general principle I do not like when players try to speak for other players and consider anti-town at the best of times because if the player you're speaking for is scum then they just get to hide behind whatever explanation you gave them and if the player is town then you're more likely to piss them off and get into a shitfight over it.
It does not help that your "theory" reads a lot like you actively shading Naerys without actually committing to a read on the slot. It reads like scum poisoning the well rather than a town that's solving.
That's a weird vote after you make a pretty convincing case on Ani.
I just want to drag this slot out of the burrows a little more.
In post 261, TheHoldSteady wrote:
I feel like Enchant becomes easier to read the more they talk so I'm alright voting them a bit to get them going.
This series of events doesn't really endear me to Enchant's slot right now. Obviously 260 and 261 happen after Enchant OMGUS votes THS but I feel like Enchant would at least be aware of how their slot is perceived at the time THS votes them and simply refusing to provide AI content feels purposefully obstinate at this point rather than just introductory trolling.
In post 291, OutWorldER wrote:
I'm not sure if I'm reading that post right, where did Naerys sheep you and why does it imply scum!Naerys? And tbh Naerys dig for me being inactive was deserved because I genuinely wasn't posting at a good volume beforehand because of work.
In post 290, AnimatedWiz wrote:
If I could ask you, OWER, what are your reads right now?
DE, THS, Wartortle <-- Townreads
Smiley <-- Townlean
Naerys, Python <-- Null
Enchant <-- Scumlean
You, Hu Tao <-- Scumreads
No one finds this one suspicious? By suspicious i mean in "Not Townie Way". I am townie so i know how townie could act!
In post 360, Enchant wrote:
It's obviously not random vote and i have respectable reasons which i won't share because... because...
... It's secret!
I've been trying to read through some of Enchant's earlier games and I can't find one where they try to obfuscate their reads like this and be purposefully obstinate to other players. This doesn't feel like the town Enchant I'm reading in other games.
In post 402, TheHoldSteady wrote:
Enchant says its Smiley, I think it could be Annie, DE thought it was Annie, Black thinks it was DE, I don't think its Wartortle, Status and Annie say its Wartortle, Wartortle says it's not Annie. Who is wrong here and who is leading us off the track?
In post 404, TheHoldSteady wrote:
There's too many scumreads out there for the amount of scum there are.
Okay I'm gonna get off my Wiz tunnel now because these posts carry the HEAVY vibe of being informed while also not tracking with a vote on TSQ at all. HoldSteady proclaims that someone is leading town astray and so votes the person who only just recently got a hold of the game-state? That doesn't ring as consistent to me.
VOTE: TheHoldSteady
re: Wartortle being an alt. I don't really have a stake in that debate because IMO it's not one that's really productive. If Wartortle is an alt that's entirely his own prerogative to reveal or not. I don't think anything alignment-indicative or helpful comes out of trying to have that discussion.
In post 575, OutWorldER wrote:
DE/Roden, Black <--- Townread
Hu Tao, Smiley <--- Townlean
Naerys, THS <-- Null
Enchant, Python <-- Scumlean
AnimatedWiz, Wartortle <-- Scumread
Hu Tao gets a townlean from me because I genuinely don't think scum that's playing the way she is would make the vote she made in 264. Python was fairly passive during the Wiz wagon for reasons they've explained but their recent posting feels weird to me as their posts don't seem to align with their vote on Naerys. Naerys is still a null, I don't like her recent posting but I'm willing to chalk it up to surgery and tiredness. THS I'm just going to commit to not being able to sort this D1. Every other read I've expressed here I think I've expressed elsewhere and if not I can explain them.
In post 865, OutWorldER wrote:
Enchant's play here is actually fairly baffling to me because from what I read they have a reputation of low-info posting, quickhammering, and good mechanical play very late into the game and so the quickhammer yesterday is somewhat confusing because the posts afterwards come off as very weirdly trying to justify everything.
The spicy take I have here is I actually think it's coming from a town!Enchant because it feels like Enchant is trying to have people take them more seriously here and that's an emotion I think only comes from Town here. Scum, I think, would just try to coast by on their reputation.
In post 1111, OutWorldER wrote:
alright, I got back from work fairly early, so I'll drop this now and then probably go to sleep, and respond to whatever is posted in response in the morning when I wake up
Spoiler: WHEN YOU JUMP TO IT AND YOU CAN'T GO THROUGH IT AND YOU CAN'T KNOCK IT DOWN
Black vs Roden, I think, is incredibly obvious TvS, and Roden is the very obvious scum in this situation. It feels this D2 Roden came from a completely alternate universe than D1 Roden. His assertion that Black can't vote scum does not track with his own stated reads, where Black's vote has been, and his own (lack of) defense of the Wartortle wagon. Look at the following quotes here:
Spoiler: Quotes Wall
In post 932, Roden wrote:
I don't think Black is capable of voting scum unfortunately
In post 944, Black wrote:
Everyone hop on. I'm driving this wagon off the cliff
Vote this off tomorrow so this slot doesn't make us lose in ELO please
If you were to replace into this game right now, and the first posts you saw were these, you'd think that Roden would've been hard defending Wartortle D1 and heavily against his elim. This isn't true to reality though, because if we look at his ISO D1:
Spoiler: Quotes Wall the 2nd
In post 622, Roden wrote:
Sorry, I had trouble connecting to the site the last couple days. I had caught up when it was 15 pages and I'm just going to give my thoughts from there. As of now I'll be playing in the present and just catch up over the night phase.
Smiley: Seemed odd early on but I agreed with a lot of his posts. 210 and 353 are posts I especially liked and thought were townie.
Hu Tao: A lot of nothing for awhile, but I think that's townie for her judging by past experience. Which maybe sounds mean and I don't intend to mean it that way, but I've seen them be very active/proactive as scum and I don't think their attitude matches their scum games so far.
Naerys: I don't agree with most of the reasoning she's given for her reads. 152 is the only post I kinda like, but even then she only null reads Star later on, which is just off to me. I hate the Wartortle and Smiley reads.
Wiz: Idk why this player has been getting scum read, and I don't agree with the previous player in my slot. Wiz has been pretty solvey all game, and he's been one of the most active players. This game has been too inactive for scum to actively decide to put so much attention on themself like he has.
Wartortle: A self proclaimed town leader that I'm fine with town binning for now. Depending on flips, I could see him potentially being a power wolf, but it feels very unlikely.
Enchant: Pass.
Heip: Hard to follow what's going on with him, but he looks like lim bait. Going on the backburner for later.
Hold: I got genuine townie outrage from him and feel some empathy there. I think this is just town.
OWER: 345 rang alarm bells for me, it read like panicked scum who was scrambling around all of the replace-ins. The fact he moved his vote later on solidifies this for me.
Star: Has some LAMIST posts that I didn't like. I have a scum lean here but it's based mostly on vibes.
Knott: Nothing to comment on. I'm hoping Shea town tells.
Python: I like posts 125 and 327, I feel fine setting them aside as town.
Your vote on Naerys feels opportunistic. When reading your catchup post it feels like you mainly scumread her for having bad reads which isn't even really scum indicative. When I compare your read on her to OWER and to an extent BlackStar I feel like your vote should have gone to one of the latter two, but instead it goes on Naerys who just so happens to be one of the leading wagons
Nothing in your catchup gave me enough town vibes to make me reconsider my scumlean on DE
Initially I had an issue with your readslist because I thought it was ordered and that didn't match your reads but looking at it in more detail, it seems like you just threw names into the piles without ordering them. Correct me if I'm wrong here
Sorry, I thought I'd made it clear but I mainly scum read her for the
reasoning
she gave for her reads, not because she had bad reads. I specifically hate the Smiley read because I think he'd done enough to not be a null slot, and I hate the Wartortle scum read because it had zero lead up to it and it didn't match up with their prior interactions.
I would vote OWER, but 1) I haven't fully caught up and I want to know the context of why he changed his tune about his Wiz, 2) I don't have enough buy in and good will to start a brand new wagon two days before deadline, and 3) I still think Naerys is scum, and of my three scum reads she's the most likely slot I can successfully vote out.
As far as opportunism, I don't really understand this point. If I'm scum making up scum reads, voting Wartortle is the optimal play regardless of his alignment. If he's town, he's a much better vote than Naerys since that furthers the gap from my own potential wagon, and if Naerys is also town who is LHF then I'd want to keep her around for the next Day phase. If Wartortle is scum, the best play is for us to commit to scum theatre so one of us gains town cred if the other flips.
Also yeah, my reads list isn't ordered, but only because it isn't final yet.
In post 777, Roden wrote:
For what it's worth, if this does flip town I don't think it was a scum-driven wagon. It feels like it built up naturally.
The first two quotes are like...the most Roden ever offered in defense of Wartortle, and the last one is almost outright an endorsement of the wagon. Roden's read on Wartortle is also incredibly hedgy, stating a weak TR on the slot while also proclaiming he could see him being a "power wolf". Roden also does basically nothing to push his "preferred alternative" (Naerys) at all D1. His readslist, initial vote, and some weak justification offered
almost entirely in defense of himself
is the most he ever does to try and push Naerys D1.
These two narratives are completely incongruous with one another and the scum motivation here should be obvious: Scum lets a town-led miselim through while off-wagon, then beats Town over the head D2 with the fact of their mislim to try and gain some towncred off of an "I told you so" narrative. Except in this case Roden didn't even bother to try and pretend he wasn't going to let the Wartortle elim go through in the first place.
The rest of the fight is just theatre on Roden's part:
I mean the guy is purposely being snarky and rude just to piss me off and shade me. Mission accomplished. I'm not personally attacking him, I just said I don't give a fuck if he thinks my response is real or not
Yeah it's shit like this why I'm being snarky
I can't have a single conversation with you without you twisting what I say as being scum-motivated
Like every time I tried to talk to you yesterday you could only think up worlds where I'm scum no matter what I was trying to say or whatever alignment Wartortle would flip
In post 932, Roden wrote:
I don't think Black is capable of voting scum unfortunately
First of all...rude
Second, you think Naerys, OWER, and Enchant are all town? Because I know for a fact you don't. So why the shade?
Who are you voting
You said I'm not capable of voting scum, which implies you don't think I've voted for scum this game. So yeah this is pure shade and I think you know I'm town
I'm telling you to stop fucking around with bad votes and pointless shade
It's Day 2 and you're voting someone you barely have a case on. Do you seriously have so little information that you can't formulate a legitimate case? Do you find it impossible to work with other people and try to reset after making a bad mis-elim go through?
In post 954, Roden wrote:
Idk what your problem is but your attitude is atrocious and your ego is embarrassing
These potshots are utterly divorced from the reality of the game, especially the first one. Go back and read those quotes where Roden talks to Black D1. The responses from both players are civil, and in the context of Black's 692, 696 and 697 the frustration coming from Roden seems incredibly exaggerated and out of proportion. Black has been incredibly transparent with the DE/Roden read, both that she had a scumlean on him and that her read was also not entirely set in stone. If you want to say that Roden's anger here comes from being voted by Black, I'd counter that he should reasonably have forseen this possibility from his interactions with her D1 and the fact that there was no NK from which to do NKA that could've affected Black's reads. The only thing that could've affected Black's reads was Wartortle's flip, but reading Black's ISO I think Black made it clear her read on Wartortle was divorced associatives-wise from her read on DE/Roden.
But the real kicker is, if you read these in a vacuum once again, it looks like Roden is a frustrated townie yelling at a person who he also thinks is a townie. Then:
Spoiler: Quotes Wall the 4th
In post 973, Roden wrote:
Honestly I can't even town clear you Black for the way you're acting here because this isn't even the third time that I've pissed off scum so badly that they want me dead
Granted...they all won afterwards because everyone town read their genuine anger and played it up even after my mis-elim
In post 966, Roden wrote:
Yeah it's shit like this why I'm being snarky
I can't have a single conversation with you without you twisting what I say as being scum-motivated
Like every time I tried to talk to you yesterday you could only think up worlds where I'm scum no matter what I was trying to say or whatever alignment Wartortle would flip
And you're still doing that today
That's cap. I was clearly willing to re-evaluate in 697 and I even admitted I was wrong about one of my points in that post. But whatever dude
Yet you voted me without trying to engage with me first...interesting...
On the weakest, most incredibly reachy progression possible, which somehow even overrides his stated SR and vote on me beforehand. Go through Roden's ISO yourself and find where he
ever
states even a nominal suspicious of Black's slot, and you won't find until the literal 2 last posts he made in this argument. I think Roden realized that people were voting Black on (what I think is a) weak case (the idea that Black "goaded" Naerys into voting so Enchant would hammer) and realized he could twist it into trying to start something on Black (remember that at this point in the argument Enchant and BlackStar were still voting Black). Or just to throw it out there to try and improve his image and make it look like a TvT. The point is that I don't think this vote here comes from town.
I don't think any of Roden's part in this conversation comes from Town.
I think the entirety of Roden's posts here are about making himself look good and not about actual scumhunting.
I'm still somewhat sus of the JOAT claim but honestly with Black's results it can only be one of three people I think (If I'm interpreting claims correctly) and I think Python's reasoning makes sense here.
In post 1653, AnimatedWiz wrote:
I… hm… I do find it quite convenient that the Bodyguard did target two people who were already protected from danger by the Jailkeeper (who claimed before he did).
However, I feel like if BlackStar would tell a lie, it would be something a bit less miraculous as to be less suspicious, right? It’s weird, but I feel it’s honest for that’s reason.
BlackStar had to claim with a Watcher who had not claimed results yet and so making a miracle alibi is his only choice there if he's scum, otherwise he risks getting immediately caught out on a lie if Black had watched his target (and she did).
In post 2056, OutWorldER wrote:
Python/Roden and then one of THS/Naerys/Wiz. THS coming into today voting Wiz is awful but I think 1811 and 1995 (note Naerys wasn't voting Python or BlackStar at that point in the day) point towards Naerys partner just as likely. Wiz, however, is the only one who I think has a reason to kill Black after she ran out of watcher shots.
In post 2117, AnimatedWiz wrote:
I would like to push forward the idea of eliminating OWER—I feel like he has been piggybacking a lot of wagons, including the D1 wagon on me, the Wartortle wagon, and the BlackStar wagon.
VOTE: OutWorldER.
In post 2113, AnimatedWiz wrote:
Like, if I was scum, why would I townflip the slot I’ve been trying to eliminate the entire game?
Replace "entire game" with "since D2"
I think I'm on board with Smiley saying THS is town here and Enchant coming into today trying to push his lim for extremely weak reasons feels extremely sus.
In post 2196, Enchant wrote:
Mafia attacked you N1 and learned you didn't die.
And that you probably not cause of it because you naturally could't defend self as any role but bulletproof and roleblocking bulletproof is cring. Yet they roleblock you again,
while attacking black
(knowing other protective/blocker still here).
Literally ???
bro just casually scumslips in twilight
In post 2241, OutWorldER wrote:
I feel like today's vote mostly just has to be between the guy who potentially scumslipped in twilight (because Smiley's right, scum nightkills here haven't been so straightforward that saying Python attacked Black isn't something you can say for sure without being in the scum PT) or the guy who quickhammered the JOAT, and I lean far more towards Wiz for right now, because that hammer was completely out of line with how they played this on D3, where he was consistently saying for things to not end quickly, then just up and hammers THS with like, 5 days or so left in the deadline? With a really weak justification?
I think Enchant has the potential to be town that's maybe oversimplifying the game. I don't see a world where Wiz is anything but Maf here.
In post 2268, OutWorldER wrote:
Rereading the game and at this point, I think I'm just gonna send it. I retract my claim that Enchant could be town here.
VOTE: Enchant
The thing I noticed on a reread is that Enchant did not vote, at all, during D3 in the BlackStar vs Python 1f1. He abstained entirely, and the only indication he was even going to was saying that Smiley would regret stealing from him when he hammered BlackStar.
Instead, Enchant spent a good chunk of that day trying to discredit Black, the Watcher, discrediting the mass-claim and being purposefully obfuscatory about his role. What little he posts outside of that is useless fluff, except for 1676 which contains absolutely zero analysis of use. When Python is confirmed red by BlackStar's flip, he immediately tries to chain THS, the JOAT, to them 2055, setting up for D5 where he pushes THS and gets him elimmed.
I think there's more than enough here to associate Enchant with Python. The other partner has to be within Wiz/TSQ, because Smiley is basically conftown at this point, but on a reread I feel most confident about eliminating Enchant here.
Would you put all your scumteam in scumreads as mafia? Hmmm.
Wizard-Mercenary
You need replacement/players ASAP? PM me! I almost always accept.
In post 575, OutWorldER wrote:
DE/Roden, Black <--- Townread
Hu Tao, Smiley <--- Townlean
Naerys, THS <-- Null
Enchant, Python <-- Scumlean
AnimatedWiz, Wartortle <-- Scumread
Hu Tao gets a townlean from me because I genuinely don't think scum that's playing the way she is would make the vote she made in 264. Python was fairly passive during the Wiz wagon for reasons they've explained but their recent posting feels weird to me as their posts don't seem to align with their vote on Naerys. Naerys is still a null, I don't like her recent posting but I'm willing to chalk it up to surgery and tiredness. THS I'm just going to commit to not being able to sort this D1. Every other read I've expressed here I think I've expressed elsewhere and if not I can explain them.
Your list is missing thestatusquo and me
I could've sworn I put TSQ on there. He's a townread, I don't think scum replaces in to immediately start swinging on (at that time) a player who'd been mostly TR'd by a good chunk of the player list. Also the whole debacle around Wartortle's status as an alt account strikes me as a townie feeling deceived regardless of whether or not that's actually the case.
You I literally just keep forgetting about, you are a blank in my mind, for some reason. Looking through your ISO you ask a lot of questions that just read as softballs to me and I agree with TSQ that you just generally interact with the game in a way I'm not really vibing with.
Hi, I'm Annie! Please have patience with me—I am disabled.
In post 605, usesPython wrote:
Page 21:
{OWER}
{Smiley, Black, Shea}
{Wiz}
{DE70}
{THS, Blackstar}
{Hu Tao, Wartle}
{Naerys}
I would also like to point that Python had the opposite strategy when they placed OWER high here—the next post after this said the OWER-Shea ranks were fluid between each other.
Hi, I'm Annie! Please have patience with me—I am disabled.
I don’t think it’s impossible for anyone to literally just forget to post a read on someone—after all, I think everyone here has seen how I tend to miss words when I type due to all the repeated edits.
…but I do think it could be a sign? Perhaps with leaving BlackStar out to not make it as suspicious if someone catches him for leaving people out.
Hi, I'm Annie! Please have patience with me—I am disabled.
In post 2388, AnimatedWiz wrote:
Also, here’s the issue, Shea: if I trust that you know what you’re talking about, it means that Enchant probably isn’t scum—which leaves you as the only possibility left.
Well yes, I think you're in a rough spot as scum here. You were leaning on voting enchant until I came in and noted that I was unlikely to vote enchant. Enchant previously has said he is unlikely to vote me.
I'm not sure what your play is here. I think you're just caught and you should cross vote with one of us and let the other figure it out.
