Mini Normal 2329: complex. [game over!]

[Aristeia]

[Aristeia]

VOTE: Hu Tao

[Aristeia]

think Gera's vote was p bad too

[Aristeia]

Also Naerys tell me why you think my vote is worse than PCs. When we say similar things.

I'd want Klick and Ari's reasoning too.

I don't really know much about PC, I guess he could also be mafia. If you flip mafia he'd probably be the first place I look.

[Aristeia]

the way you're framing the question feels like something mafia would say tho.

"why is this person's vote not as bad as mine" feels like something mafia say when they feel like they are being unfairly targeted when they think their play is the same as everyone else.

truth be told I voted you because you had the most votes and you had a sus looking hop on to the wagon, I didn't really bother trying to figure out which vote on the wagon was the most sus or whatever, I just saw two votes on you, checked your iso and decided it was a decent place to start.

[Aristeia]

"why is this person's vote not as bad as mine" feels like something mafia say when they feel like they are being unfairly targeted when they think their play is the same as everyone else.

Exploring this a bit -- why would mafia say this more often than town who feel they are being unfairly targeted? Wouldn't it be the unfairly targeted part, more than the alignment part?

I'm not entirely sure what the psych reason is, I just think mafia are more likely to appeal towards "fairness" and think it's not right they're being singled out for behavior they think everyone is doing.

Town tend to care less about being eliminated and more often blame others for their deaths. Her attitude also doesn't really fit with her self voting and declaring Naerys to be a confident scumread because of one single factor.

[Aristeia]

how is it a useful sorting question?

if anything I feel like its setting up framing for a debate on which of these votes were the "scummiest"

which is like ? to me. like if there's multiple scummy looking votes you have to start somewhere and sort them one by one no?

[Aristeia]

So you're saying that me and him did the same thing as partners. And you're saying that if I flip town you wouldn't? Seems like a weird take

if you flip town I'd probably examine Naerys because she's the one you're 100% convinced is mafia who is pushing you.

There's also issues with like, who pushed you, who defended you, who the nightkill is, what role info comes up etc.

The reason I'd go towards looking at PC if you flip mafia is because I can see you doing this as a kind of weird distancing thing to your partner.

[Aristeia]

Wrong. I want to see if people are voting for actual reasons. What do you think of all of the things I said on Naerys?

well from the last time I played with you and Naerys in Cop 17er, you were town and Naerys was mafia. She played extremely passively and was more or less a nonfactor in pushing things so off that comparison it's not really the same. On the other hand I think you didn't really feel like you cared all that much when you got pushed, you challenged people more directly and I thought you didn't really care if people voted for you or not.

the way you're scumcasing Naerys isn't really convincing to me, it's like you remembered a single thing she did once;

Kinda tempted to troll hammer tbh

My fingers are itching

This is Naerys reaction as town when it was E-1 on page 3 in last game. Drastically different this game. I wonder why?

So just to be clear you caught naerys multiple times with this or is this all in just one game?

This is a separate game. One where she was town. Last few quotes was when she was scum. Just showing this is how she reacted last game as town. She wanted to hammer. But this game she was very suspicious of people on the wagon. Which shows a clear difference

like saying because someone wanted to troll hammer in one game as town that she'd want to trollhammer in this game as town is kind of a stretch to me.

[Aristeia]

Don't you think it's more likely that scum was off the wagon for RN than on? If not how come?

the way you and gera were both gungho and excited about the wagon gave me scum who is excited to ram through an easy mislim vibes

[Aristeia]

Like this kind of behavior is very self-focused and you're not that self-focused when your wincon is attached to two other known players

that just seems to assume hu tao is a specific brand of scum player

i don't think that's generally true about scum players

I would assume it's true about most people? I'd assume that most people would want to avoid throwing the game for two specific people. There's a responsibility to them in a small group sort of way
I don't have a reason to assume Hu Tao would be exempt from that

why would HT's behavior be scum!throwing and not just scum!ATE

[Aristeia]

do you really think RN was close to being limmed?
ugh i guess some people did

RN was at e-2 and the 4th/5th votes were openly goading for a quicklim on page three of the game.

54
69
71

[Aristeia]

Is this normal (especially post 71) on Day 1, to just do things for shiz and giggles? Basically, should this be something to not read too far into or should it be something to note and keep an eye on?

quicklimming someone very early in d1 is not normal. I don't have enough familiarity with gera or hu to say whether they do it commonly for shits and giggles as town.

[Aristeia]

Why would my confidence crumble if I'm scum and I successfully miseliminate you

bcz scum has to keep up some appearances, if you´d remain confident after being so obviously "wrong" it´d be suspicious
so obviously your confidence will have to crumble even if for the spectators

this seems really contrived

VOTE: Naerys

[Aristeia]

What are your thoughts on other people this game that don't include me or Naerys

gera feels scummy
klick & kjq feels townie
dave feels townie but its weird cuz last time i played with him he was town but didnt feel townie at all

[Aristeia]

i'll quote why if you want!

pls do

[Aristeia]

I suffer from short term memory loss

[Aristeia]

hi titus

[Aristeia]

VOTE: gera

[Aristeia]

If NAS is scum, I think he's with a scumteam who isn't assistjng him to post anything better than 757 and I think that team probably includes geraintm.

I have trouble with this logic because I think maybe three or four players in this PL would provide "coaching" and you don't even know if NAS cares enough about the game to be receptive to it.

[Aristeia]

don't mind them guys they drank some hatorade this morning. I was thinking it might be aristea way back when I made my dumb prediction post at work because I had nothing better to do then someone quoted wait dr. drew I think that would scum make that post and quoted aristea lke idk third post or something I'm hard guessing. but klick also quoted it way back. anyways I was thinking nah scum don't make that post. then I was thinking I haven't seen them then I started reading back and saw that they were going after gera now. It felt WEIRD. that's where I'm at with aristea.

my pronouns are she/her

if you have questions for me you can just ask me

[Aristeia]

VOTE: clout

[Aristeia]

VOTE: Aristela

Just following wagons. No following up on Clout. Only 2 mentions before the vote.

[Aristeia]

it's probably because NAS isn't in his mafia PT

[Aristeia]

I actually feel better about Titus being mafia than PC but I'm ok with either order tbh

I don't really think town!titus claims I'm mafia confidently, votes me, and then doesn't respond when I start making fun of her.

[Aristeia]

do you think she doesn't respond to me saying she's chainsawing for PC if they're actually S/S ?

I was thinking it over in my head and I thought maybe she wants the wagon to go through if he's town because she doesn't have any need to fight to defend him if he's town whereas if he's scum she shouldn't just afk it?

I don't really have any familiarity with how PC plays I'm mostly just sheeping your read. I thought you made p good points about him being mafia but it's kind of murky with how the game state is.

[Aristeia]

like I don't really see how she can expect what she said to you to be like convincing you to vote for me.

[Aristeia]

why is Titus town to you?

[Aristeia]

what did drew do that made you think he was townie?

[Aristeia]

I think this would be significantly more fruitful if you were more specific about which posts you liked from Drew and why you liked them.

[Aristeia]

sorry i did not have a good answer to your question ari

its ok I dont have a good answer either

[Aristeia]

Meh, I feel like me not being here is bullshit of repetition.

I also think pc and geratim share an alignment most likely given the wagon movement. Based on play, I feel it's town. I'm getting pushback for highlighting how bullshit that vote from Ari was.

ok Titus

tell me why it's bullshit for me to sheep Dannflor/Klick in this game state.

This is how I read this game state and why;

Naerys is the "it wagon" it's got about 4-5 votes, she's being pushed by the IC, as long as that grouping remains intact pretty much no other wagon is going to be "impactful"

If Naerys is town and there's 4 town voters + 1 scum voter on Naerys; it leaves eight votes outside of the Naerys cluster, 2 of which are mafia. I don't think you'll find more than 1 mafia voter because if Naerys is town this is one of those self-immolation plays that scum usually just sit on the sidelines for.

So in that game state, me voting by myself is literally pointless to me because no mafia is ever going to feel "pressured" by my one vote with so many town votes stuck on Naerys. The only way to generate information in such a game state is to vote with other people to try to create threats to the current status quo of the game state. If I do not work to change the narrative, the present course just gets pushed through and it's basically punting on the day.

[Aristeia]

as for why its pointless imo to keep pushing Naerys;

she has more or less given up on playing this game, she's thrown her hands up.

I have no idea how to read that kind of play. you can flip her today but I don't see how you get any information out of it if she's town.

[Aristeia]

ok you didnt mention me before you voted me are you mafia for it?

[Aristeia]

like if you log on and you see some people trying to start a counterwagon to the current prevailing wagon and you don't think the current prevailing wagon is on mafia why is it anti-town to help the counterwagon to generate more information?

I don't have a good read on PC, but helping people I think are townie and working to generate more information is always good because one stagnant prevailing wagon and lots of small 1 or 2 vote wagons do not do anything.

[Aristeia]

@Ari, Technically my vote came before the explanation in the same post.

so you mean you voted me without mentioning me in your iso prior to your vote

[Aristeia]

don't mind them guys they drank some hatorade this morning. I was thinking it might be aristea way back when I made my dumb prediction post at work because I had nothing better to do then someone quoted wait dr. drew I think that would scum make that post and quoted aristea lke idk third post or something I'm hard guessing. but klick also quoted it way back. anyways I was thinking nah scum don't make that post. then I was thinking I haven't seen them then I started reading back and saw that they were going after gera now. It felt WEIRD. that's where I'm at with aristea.

my pronouns are she/her

if you have questions for me you can just ask me

Namely this.

follow up what?

he rambled on about "thinking" about my alignment

I asked him if he had any questions about me

he decided not to ask me anything

why am I supposed to be following up?

[Aristeia]

@Ari, Technically my vote came before the explanation in the same post.

so you mean you voted me without mentioning me in your iso prior to your vote

Differences are I gave a reason and I haven't been here all game.

I don't feel a compulsion to write out a reason with every vote I make. Your original point was that not mentioning the person prior in the iso is scummy, when pointed out that you did the same thing you've begun moving the goalposts rather than recognizing the flaws in your own logic.

[Aristeia]

Anything. Ask PC a question. Comment on PC's lack of follow through. Your statement and vote don't do that. It's just there. There's no sorting effort.

asking him to ask me questions is sorting him

[Aristeia]

Fairish on moving the goal posts but different circumstances are different. You sheeped twice. You have no hunting and have no backbone.

I have already explained why I am sheeping with a fairly detailed strategic overview of the game state and why I am doing it. You are using blanket statements to muddy the issue. I'm going to not respond to your comment about backbone because I feel like that's just trying to bait an emotional response at this point to further muddy the waters.

[Aristeia]

I'm not spending three pages arguing with you. Until I see aggressive posting, you're just scum to me.

ok this is a good place to end the conversation I guess.

I don't particularly feel like being aggressive in this game state or probably ever again. it's not very fun for me.

[Aristeia]

I'm concerned about Wake, but that could be real life.

Wake is an alt slip of Random Nurse who is the IC

if you're town you might want to take the time to get the basic facts of the game right before going off on someone for "not working with you"

[Aristeia]

do you think town or scum make that kind of post?

probly town

[Aristeia]

Hu Tao are you ever going to answer which questions from Drew you found townie

[Aristeia]

im rereading page 15 like twice and I still dont understand how Naerys got tilted

viewtopic.php?t=92345&start=350

she has 2 votes and hu tao has 5 with RN saying that if hu tao gets to 6 he'll hammer it so why would naerys even tilt there

[Aristeia]

so I'm trying to understand the impetus for why Naerys would unvote like that and I'm frankly stumped because I don't understand the town perspective.

You're pushing Hu Tao who you think is mafia, Gera votes HT(e-2) at 431am, 5 minutes later the RN IC says he'll hammer the slot if it gets one more vote, although he does say he is having second thoughts.

KJQ then says Naerys is mafia and HT is confidently town - votes for Naerys(2nd vote on Naerys) - 634am

Klick then says he thinks people want Hu Tao to get yeeted quickly etc - HT says some stuff and then Naerys tilts and claims she is not going to try anymore 937 am

Klick prefers voting Naerys to voting HT at 952 am, less than a minute later Naerys self-votes and refuses to play any further.

[Aristeia]

I skim Page 15 and the entire narrative of the page is basically 'Hu is town and maybe Naerys is scum'
I can understand the tilt from either alignment

ok but its just Hu Tao, KQJ and Klick, three people talking. There's more votes on Hu Tao and IC saying he'd hammer.

Like why would you tilt if two people other than the person you're pushing think you're mafia? wouldn't the base instinct be like to call them scum defending their buddy from you?

[Aristeia]

I'm not really entertaining hu tao/naerys as SvS, I think that's kind of ridiculous and the frustration from both sides seems real enough and... sloppy enough? that I doubt it is theatre

I don't think its outside the realm of possibility

Datisi's mod meta for complex setups is to include scum roles that are better to yeet for the scum team than others

[Aristeia]

the last mini normal he modded had a town IC/Ninja enabler that killing it would make the mafia not ninjas.

the mini normal before that had an alien enabler mafia which if limmed disabled a town tpr.

I think one of the reasons the tilt would make sense is if naerys just wanted to distance off HT with the vote, then when HT got run up couldnt figure out a way to exit and they had some kind of argument in the scum PT and hu tao yelled at her to get off and she decided to die rather than play on the same team as HT

[Aristeia]

Datisi's mod meta for complex setups is to include scum roles that are better to yeet for the scum team than others

this kinda feels manipulative af, just saying

did I hit a nerve?

I thought you wanted to get yeeted?

I don't particularly think I need to make up a story to yeet you at this point

[Aristeia]

the last mini normal he modded had a town IC/Ninja enabler that killing it would make the mafia not ninjas.

the mini normal before that had an alien enabler mafia which if limmed disabled a town tpr.

the point I'm making here is that because of the complex rating and the mod meta there can be distinction between the scum roles such that one scum role would be much better for the town to yeet than another.

and if naerys is the weaker scum role and she distanced off Hu tao (the stronger scum role) and then hu tao got mad at her because the direction of the bussing is wrong that would explain the tilt that went on in the thread.

[Aristeia]

*you are trying

its interesting you didnt say anything about anything else that happened but this theory of mine you feel compelled to respond to

[Aristeia]

I know i am town and from my point of view it kinda feels like trying to topple a struggling wagon

um my theory is about your motivation to save hu tao who is on your team

so if people think its a good theory, the lim today would be hu tao not you

so its literally the opposite of what you're accusing me of doing.

[Aristeia]

So then based off of this, you think they could both be scum but the better elimination for us today is Hu Tao?

yea thats the point im making

or I guess we could always just yeet naerys and if she is like a "weak scum role" like "XXX enabler" then we yeet Hu tao tommorrow?

[Aristeia]

um my theory is about your motivation to save hu tao who is on your team

When was i trying to save Hu Tao, lol?

when you saw her go to e-2 and IC threaten to hammer and then you immediately had a meltdown and voted yourself on page 16

[Aristeia]

the height of the HT wagon was on page 15, you dismantled it yourself out of nowhere by page 16.

I don't understand why you would tilt if you're getting close to limming the person you think is mafia

i dont understand why you refuse to vote for hu tao or push her

so I have to make a narrative that makes sense to me because I don't really get it if you're town and straight up playing against your win con this way

[Aristeia]

You've never seen town emotionally self-implode in ways that didn't seem rational to you?

I've seen town emotionally self implode under pressure when they're losing in the vote count or being pressured and feel like they're the leading candidate to be limmed. I don't see it when they're winning in the vote count and on the verge of yeeting their top scumread.

[Aristeia]

UNVOTE:

I don't think the odds are like amazing that this is some S-S thing but it's the explanation that makes sense to me because it makes most of the pieces fit.

Hu Tao self voting and yelling that Naerys is mafia to distance

Naerys unvoting and sabotaging the Hu Tao wagon at its Apex

Hu Tao abandoning Naerys to vote PC as soon as a viable CW popped up while saying she still thought Naerys was a "good" vote also - then popping back on Naerys.

Naerys claiming she doesn't care about the game and then re-engaging into the thread when this subject comes up.[this would make sense with a scum mentality of "I'm done, my job was to die for Hu Tao today" to "oh no maybe they are onto us and panick"]


I think Dave said something earlier about how Hu Tao/Naerys interactions felt like scum theatre and its just been in the back of my head.

[Aristeia]

I have a tendency to believe in overarching grand theory type things in mafia games and also have issues with basic probability btw so take what I say with a grain of salt.

[Aristeia]

ITT Klick predictably continues to run cover for Naerys.

do you think they can be S/S?

like look at this interaction:

I thought Naerys was towny earlier but the read is stale
I'm not ready to judge there atm but I'm not flat ruling her out

If it were strictly Hu Tao vs Naerys today then I'd be voting for Naerys

VOTE: Naerys
i am out of here, bye

The thing is Hu Tao you're expressing a massive amount of confidence in the Naerys scumread
but you also say you scumread NotAScum more than her and I think your NotAScum scumread is kinda poor
It gives me low confidence in your supposedly strong Naerys scumread

PEdit: stop

I very much doubt that's a scripted S/S interaction

[Aristeia]

think dann is town. kind of curious why hu tao keeps him in her pool

He's good as scum. Can look towny

How is Dann as Scum?

Does he normally refuse to work with Tiwn especially ICs?

I think Dann is town because;

if Dann is scum with Naerys scum I don't think Naerys plays this way because Dann is fairly good at coaching his teammates to not do this nonsense.

if Dann is scum with Naerys town I don't think he bothers to "work" to find an alternative or take the time to work against you and craft an opposing narrative - he just takes the slam dunk Naerys lim where it stands and moves on.

This is a very simplistic read of Dann ig, he's certainly capable of being mafia I just don't think he plays this way

[Aristeia]

ig I'm kind of opposed to limming NAS because I think Hu Tao is scummy and I don't really think NAS!scum keeps tunneling Hu!scum

the way both hu/naerys reacted negatively to me saying they're S/S feels rlly off.

like I don't really see why naerys!town would come out of exile to contest my theory when like she was fine with being voted out as is.

and I don't really think Hu thinks I'm scum/scum with Naerys and that I'm trying to chain lim her off a Naerys scum flip.

Both of those reactions feel really off to me.

[Aristeia]

what is everybody's read on dave

gth town, I liked some of the ways he interacted with others (titus entry, naerys, hu tao) - he feels geniunely curious at points.

i have only played one game with town!dave and he didn't look like this and I've never played with scum!dave

[Aristeia]

Do you only think Hu/Naerys are scum if they are both scum? Is there a world where only one is and if so, which? I feel like I understand your stance on them both being scum with Hu having the more powerful role, but I’m just wondering about other options including one or the other, or neither.

If Naerys is mafia I feel like her play around page 15/16 really only makes sense if she's trying to save Hu Tao because its so irrational to implode like she did right there.

If Naerys is town - she's behaving irrationally and Hu Tao's alignment is pretty much not related to how Naerys has played.

[Aristeia]

I don't think I'm hard defending Dann and I struggle to see how she thinks I am

Her passive behavior and now they're asinine Hu Naerys theory

I know you want to be insulting but you can at least use the right pronouns when you're insulting me to my face

[Aristeia]

I struggle to see how this is not intentional when you start with "her" and switch to "they're" which isn't even the right form of their

[Aristeia]

I think Titus is town because she tends to be a lot more unpleasant when she's town compared to when she's mafia

[Aristeia]

I think Titus is town because she tends to be a lot more unpleasant when she's town compared to when she's mafia

...

Well, Titus doesn't exactly seem unpleasant this game, yes?

uh to me she does

I guess I am biased

[Aristeia]

Nothing has been learnt in this game since we accidentally outed our IC.

you mean since you tried to speedlim the IC on page 3

[Aristeia]

I do enjoy playing with you gera

your ability to somehow move responsibility for mistakes to other people and refuse to read or try to read into player's motivations and claim that day one is meaningless really is refreshing to play with

[Aristeia]

Naughty point. Feel like trying to read too much into 2 people's interactions when you just can't know.q

yes I can't know

the entire basis of the game is to make guesses, inferences and use your best judgement based on a set of imperfect information.

that's literally the point of the game.

thank you for letting me know that I don't know it's really educational and I do need more pointers from such a seasoned vet such as yourself.

[Aristeia]

VOTE: Naerys

[Aristeia]

Is a Vig possible?

I find it hard to believe Scum WOULDN’T target me.

I find it hard to believe scum would target you lol

[Aristeia]

VOTE: Hu Tao

[Aristeia]

So I think PC is probably town BTW. Day ended before I could go over final reads, he started to act like he did as his last town game I was in with him and he started to ask more questions toward the end with me.

So why do you think I’m still alive?

They must think I’m hopelessly confused.

They may have made a horrible mistake, considering they don’t know my full role.

They are probably scared of a doctor

i don't think this is a town perspective

[Aristeia]

you're just trying to stroke the IC's ego at this point

[Aristeia]

you're just trying to stroke the IC's ego at this point

Which post does this refer to?

the post where she says scum didnt shoot you because they're scared of a doctor

[Aristeia]

Is a Vig possible?

I find it hard to believe Scum WOULDN’T target me.

I find it hard to believe scum would target you lol

And why do you think that is?

because you're the best IC the mafia could possibly hope for

[Aristeia]

you're just trying to stroke the IC's ego at this point

Which post does this refer to?

the post where she says scum didnt shoot you because they're scared of a doctor

...

How does that stroke my ego?

because it implies you're doing a good job and the only reason they didnt shoot you was cuz they're scared you'll get doctor'ed

[Aristeia]

well if I'm the only person who is actually annoyed at how RN played d1 I guess maybe I'm wrong and that is how most people actually views this so whatever

UNVOTE:

[Aristeia]

You'd think they'd shoot at me anyways. At best there's a dead ConfTown and at worst they know an interferer exists... as well as PR-related side effects.

if I was mafia I would never ever shoot you

[Aristeia]

I think reading hu tao as trying to stroke RN’s ego is an uncharitable interpretation

Or possibly malicious or worse.

Now I just need to weigh the intent.

I can't wait for the next banger from Detective Random Nurse

[Aristeia]

You'd think they'd shoot at me anyways. At best there's a dead ConfTown and at worst they know an interferer exists... as well as PR-related side effects.

if I was mafia I would never ever shoot you

Based on?

because I think you are the best IC mafia could possibly ask for

[Aristeia]

you don't really care about other's people's opinions

you just hard shove whatever you want

instead of listening and working with other people you're just like "resistance to me is scummy!!!"

like mafia don't even have to push mislims you'll just do it for them

why would they shoot you?

[Aristeia]

i'll just sheep you for the rest of the game ok random nurse greatest ic who ever lived

[Aristeia]

I await your majesty's commands

[Aristeia]

you don't really care about other's people's opinions

you just hard shove whatever you want

instead of listening and working with other people you're just like "resistance to me is scummy!!!"

like mafia don't even have to push mislims you'll just do it for them

why would they shoot you?

...

Again, how many games have you played with me?

I would appreciate an answer.

I don't remember ever playing with you

[Aristeia]

VOTE: Ari

[Aristeia]

well if I'm the only person who is actually annoyed at how RN played d1 I guess maybe I'm wrong and that is how most people actually views this so whatever

UNVOTE:

I feel your anger is a bit weird. Since it's not like RN controlled everything. In fact I'd say it took way too long to vote Naerys. And you're acting like you and NAS quick votes weren't a factor

so it took a long time to kill Naerys but also I voted quickly

you can't even keep your shitty narrative consistent in one post

[Aristeia]

Ari, why self vote? Comments on Dan's vote.

I have committed myself to sheeping his Majesty for the rest of the game

[Aristeia]

VOTE: Ari

Don't tempt me with a good time

what even is this perspective

do you even think i'm mafia

[Aristeia]

VOTE: Ari

Don't tempt me with a good time

what even is this perspective

do you even think i'm mafia

Do you think I'm mafia?

yes

[Aristeia]

Then it's clear what perspective you think it is then. Why ask?

just because I think you're mafia angling to vote me doesn't mean I won't give you a chance to explain yourself in case i'm wrong

[Aristeia]

If you don't remember ever playing with me how on Earth would you know how I truly have played these last 11 years?

I don't understand your point milord. It is too insightful and deep for a small mind such as mine.

[Aristeia]

Who else do you think is scum?

If I had to bet on a team it'd probably be like hu tao, dave, political clout

[Aristeia]

generally you keep asking people to vote for the person you want dead until they listen to you

[Aristeia]

The resistance to Naerys wagon is getting difficult to ignore.

I’m thinking Naerys is scum and her partners are trying to prevent her launch.

[Aristeia]

like this

just keep insinuating everyone opposed to you must be mafia and eventually you'll get your way

[Aristeia]

ITT Klick predictably continues to run cover for Naerys.

I know it's uncomfortable territory for you not being paranoid of everyone in the game

And you’re apparently not.

I wonder why that is.

anytime anyone defends your target call them mafia or whatever its super useful

[Aristeia]

Naerys [7]: Random Nurse, davesaz, geraintm, Hu Tao, Titus, Aristeia, NotAScum [HAMMER]
NotAScum [2]: Dannflor, Klick

not voting [4]: Naerys, KayJayQueue, Political Clout, Psyche

[Aristeia]

maybe its just Hu Tao + Titus + Psyche

[Aristeia]

do you even have a case for not a scum

[Aristeia]

VOTE: Titus

there i'm not self voting anymore are you happy Dave?

[Aristeia]

KJQ comes across as town trying to find out alignments, where NAS feels like performative new not real new.

this is NAS's only completed game on this site;

viewtopic.php?sid=&f=51&t=92263&user_select%5B%5D=37348

I see no indication he's not just a newbie

[Aristeia]

but aristeia, who went out of her way to push through the naeyrs wagon through against a wealth of resistance, apparently did not notice anyone post reasons for voting NAS either 1) back when anyone made these posts, or 2) while reflecting on the outcome of Day and Night 1

you are delusional if you think I pushed thru the naerys wagon

[Aristeia]

VOTE: NAS

[Aristeia]

supposing this slot is town -- which i suppose is not certain! -- the amount of wasted effort here is breathtaking

i dont really care what anyone thinks about me

[Aristeia]

so notascum ended as the second biggest wagon of yesterday and was discussed at length as a potential scumread by tons of people

yea 2 votes very huge wagon

[Aristeia]

it feels like im reading a different game from you

it might be because I'm a moron

thats fine

honestly its difficult for me to care anymore

[Aristeia]

i wish titus could just lim me so i dont have to listen to her anymore

[Aristeia]

i am never joining another normal in my entire life

[Aristeia]

hu tao how come you are steam rolling ahead after what happened d1

she's either power wolfing or delusional

[Aristeia]

she can't have a result on NAS because she all but claimed VT

i'd guess powerwolfing but might as well speedrun this loss

[Aristeia]

maybe psyche has a result who knows

[Aristeia]

if nas flips town ill apologize and shut up

if you dont have a result on NAS and he's town and you're town this is borderline game throwing but tbh i really want to lose this game

[Aristeia]

like Titus/Hu tao are more or less open wolfing this game so you better actually have a hard guilty on psyche

[Aristeia]

i didnt mean psyche i meant NAs

psyche you better actually have a hard guilty because if you're town and NAS is town then uh lol

[Aristeia]

ok i guess we'll just hope he flips scum cuz if he's town i think we just lose and its whatever

[Aristeia]

i wish random nurse wasnt so useless and could actually get me limmed so i wouldnt have to deal with this shit anymore

[Aristeia]

this is the kind of game that just makes me feel like a terrible person

[Aristeia]

like if NAS is town he is the #1 easiest target of all time and every scum would be salivating to yeet him so i hope someone voting him knows wtf they're actually doing

[Aristeia]

give me a nas flip and if it’s wrong:

if its wrong the game is fucking over and nothing you say will matter to me

[Aristeia]

i hate actually caring about games it makes me miserable

[Aristeia]

…why would you want to lose?

well if i lose random nurse also loses

[Aristeia]

honestly I probably just hate myself

[Aristeia]

i don’t like being rude. i don’t wanna be that type of animal anymore even if i suspect it’ll help me win mafia should be fun

you just called me bad for not sheeping you so whatever dude

[Aristeia]

ari when im not currently working up against a deadline im going to try to take some thread control and force whoever is town to work together here

this game is still salvageable as long as we don't quick eliminate a town!NAS before i manage to do that

if NAS is town my vote probably poisons the wagon and stops it from going thru because the King thinks I'm mafia rofl

[Aristeia]

give me a nas flip and if it’s wrong:

if its wrong the game is fucking over and nothing you say will matter to me

i am pretty sure we aren’t in mylo right now so i wonder why you say this
but sure it’s important that we aren’t wrong

I have a lot of experience with how this game works and that's just my assessment of how the game will go

[Aristeia]

its not so much as i'm being ignored as that people are not even doing the bare minimum of pretending to even play the game that makes this just a miserable experience

[Aristeia]

and then Random Nurse opens the day with "i think klick got vigged and the mafia tried to kill me" and i'm like what universe do you even live in

[Aristeia]

i dunno maybe there really is a vig who shot klick that would be the cherry on the cake tbh for how bad this town can play

[Aristeia]

maybe my exasperation is just stupid and I'm an idiot and everything is awesome and I hope thats the truth

[Aristeia]

This has devolved into chaos. I have no idea what to think about the last couple pages.

KJQ if you're mafia the best thing you can do is just log off and wait for the town to kill itself instead of pretending to try to figure out what's going on.

if you're town uh sorry but this might not be a good game.

[Aristeia]

hu tao how come you are steam rolling ahead after what happened d1

Cause I was pretty confident on NAS before I got distracted with Naerys

you literally said we should yeet you on d1 and then sheep you on Naerys on D2

[Aristeia]

and then Random Nurse opens the day with "i think klick got vigged and the mafia tried to kill me" and i'm like what universe do you even live in

Maybe he wanted to get in on the fan fiction too!

god I wish the mafia just helped him kill me so I could see what he opened day two with

[Aristeia]

i don’t have a guilty on NAS
my promise wouldn’t have any meaning if i did

I also don't have a guilty on NAS if that is what was assumed

nobody assumed you had a guilty on NAS you claimed VT day one

[Aristeia]

Is this not how games normally go? This is literally my first game ever here. And it does feel a bit…extreme. I’m trying to help but I’m not quite sure why things are getting so intense at random times.

this is the worst game I have ever played on this website

[Aristeia]

this is how I think about game states, viability, strategy, and how mafia approach the world.

there are eleven votes

we need six votes to yeet someone

there are three mafia votes so we have eight town votes.

random nurse is voting me because he couldn't find his own house with a GPS so that's one town vote gone.

so we need six out of seven town votes to elim a mafia if they don't bus.

Considering the current game state where there's no consensus and people are just fucking around doing whatever they want I would put our odds of actually limming a mafia at pretty close to 0.

like if NAs is town and he left to do whatever, we'd need six of six town votes

if Titus is town and off on her tunnel somewhere we'd need six of six town votes

if Dann is town and thinks >????? we'd need six of six town votes

if any of those two are town we have no chance of getting six votes.

so yea I don't think we have good odds

we need something stupid like mech guilties or whatever

we definitely shouldnt listen to Hu Tao who thought Naerys was a slam dunk scum lim because she's either mafia or horrible reads town

so why am I voting with people I dont trust to lim NAs

cuz i hate this game so much

[Aristeia]

im townleaning you lately bc i hard relate. but it doesnt have to be this way. i think things can turn on a heel immediately if we all just open our minds and try to be patient w one another.

ive alrdy open my mind and sheep you

[Aristeia]

i agree it’s potentially myopic but boy if i didn’t feel it for most of D1 and most of all after naeyrs was speedrolled days ahead of deadline by a couple of otherwise very disengaged slots

i am so tired of this accusation that disengaged slots speedyeeted naerys.

i felt pressured by random nurse yelling for naerys to die all the time and yelling that everyone who opposed him was some kind of mafia partner of naerys

it was so grating and so annoying that I gave in and just voted because I wanted to be done with it

I was not disengaged from the game

I very much wanted to play the game

I suffer from the problem that I ACTUALLY READ WHAT OTHER PEOPLE SAY AND I CARE ABOUT WHAT THEY THINK

[Aristeia]

We made one miselim and a VT got killed. Really not a terrible situation

everything is fine the wolf said and he tried to convince the sheep to jump into his stewpot

the water is just the right temperature

[Aristeia]

We made one miselim and a VT got killed. Really not a terrible situation

everything is fine the wolf said and she tried to convince the sheep to jump into his stewpot

the water is just the right temperature

fixed pronouns sorry the big bad wolf is usually male in the stories.

[Aristeia]

We made one miselim and a VT got killed. Really not a terrible situation

everything is fine the wolf said and she tried to convince the sheep to jump into her stewpot

"the water is just the right temperature!"

fixed pronouns sorry the big bad wolf is usually male in the stories.

oops missed the other pronoun sorry again

[Aristeia]

What gave it away?

you jumping off naerys to vote PC even though you thought she was lockscum
you not really re-evaluating after naerys elim
your "scumread" of PC that just mysteriously vanished for no reason
you buddying Random Nurse because he has the awareness level of head of cabbage
you showing absolutely no fustration with RN whatsoever despite him just being completely delusional
you not voting me even though you're posturing you think I'm mafia
you defending titus/drew on lol grounds and never re-evaluating the slot after they had the shadiest wagon hop on ever into Naerys
you never re-evaluating the Naerys read even though she did like thirteen different contortions
you cared too much on the initial push on d1

[Aristeia]

What if I were to tell you..

I'm town.

I know. It's hard to believe. But I am. What would you say

if you're actually town we'll lose together so I'm fine with it

I just wouldn't believe you at your word because like its trivially easy to lie about

[Aristeia]

hmm i think this case would be more effective if it were directed at the right audience

im inclined to think it’s wrong bc you missed hu tao’s trajectory on NAS but maybe i could help by researching receipts for each of these accusations you’ve levied

im already sheeping you you dont need to bother i dont care anymore

[Aristeia]

What if I were to tell you..

I'm town.

I know. It's hard to believe. But I am. What would you say

if you're actually town we'll lose together so I'm fine with it

I just wouldn't believe you at your word because like its trivially easy to lie about

Luckily for you, we are going to win this game. If you're also town. You're not on my to vote list today anyway

[Aristeia]

i obviously dont care about your titus read when i dont even think you're town

[Aristeia]

That was literally one of your reads for scum reading me

out of like eleven

[Aristeia]

after you went all in on Naerys and she flipped town im ngl i dont trust your reads even if you're town

[Aristeia]

the point isn't do town players make mistakes and misreads

its do town players take the time to reset and re-think things after their "lockscum super sure scumread" flips town

[Aristeia]

after you went all in on Naerys and she flipped town im ngl i dont trust your reads even if you're town

Were you not also scumreading her???

my entire thought process on Naerys has been posted in this thread I don't know what she was doing I was confused. I didn't want to lim her I wanted to lim you because if she was mafia the only explanation for her play was to protect you.

[Aristeia]

You called us S/S. Now you're whining about the clear forcing you to vote her

I have a tendency to believe in overarching grand theory type things in mafia games and also have issues with basic probability btw so take what I say with a grain of salt.

i literally said this was a long shot thing

[Aristeia]

Do you only think Hu/Naerys are scum if they are both scum? Is there a world where only one is and if so, which? I feel like I understand your stance on them both being scum with Hu having the more powerful role, but I’m just wondering about other options including one or the other, or neither.

If Naerys is mafia I feel like her play around page 15/16 really only makes sense if she's trying to save Hu Tao because its so irrational to implode like she did right there.

If Naerys is town - she's behaving irrationally and Hu Tao's alignment is pretty much not related to how Naerys has played.

^ this is me explaining that the only world where Naerys is mafia is if Hu Tao is also mafia because her play makes no sense from a mafia trying to mislim a town hu tao

[Aristeia]

i don't know if you're town with really bad reading comprehension or mafia trying to cherrypick random shit out of context to misrepresent my thought process

[Aristeia]

I guess I appreciate that you actually read what I posted even if you are mafia because it's not just me screaming into the void here.

[Aristeia]

I don’t think we should be beating ourselves up about naerys. Everyone should remember that was acting extremely odd as town. She got seemingly quite upset, self-voted, stopped responding, trolled, then came back and sort of began to play again right before getting eliminated. (too little too late, unfortunately) She should be shouldering some of the blame here and not the rest of us for reacting to those weird actions. Yes, we made a mistake but she certainly didn’t help the situation.

the only way to improve is to hold yourself to an incredibly high standard and be extremely upset after every mislim

people who dont give a shit will wallow in mediocrity forever

[Aristeia]

i don't know if you're town with really bad reading comprehension or mafia trying to cherrypick random shit out of context to misrepresent my thought process

You've literally called me scum for 11 reasons now I might be town?

i could call you scum for a thousand reasons and you could still be town

i recognize that I am not very good at this finding scum thing

[Aristeia]

you know i think like this a lot but i think it's actually false
there's a lot of research that suggests that people improve faster at things when they go out of their way to practice self-compassion

that's probably why I suck I have absolutely no compassion for myself

[Aristeia]

thanks for keeping me company so I didn't feel so lonely even if it was just for a night I appreciate it whatever your alignment might be.

[Aristeia]

I guess I probably appreciate it even more if you're mafia, you didn't have to do that for me but you were still really nice.

[Aristeia]

our king has abandoned us

[Aristeia]

Gated means with limitations. So backup, novice, x-shot, odd/even are all gated roles. Basically, if you can't unconditionally act every night (barring a roleblocker) then you're gated.

thanks

are you going to vote for somebody

[Aristeia]

i don't think we've really had that much trouble pushing eliminations. in my mind this has just been a narrative pushed by people who want their preferred lims to happen

this is easy for you to say when it looks like you will get both of the eliminations you want to happen

[Aristeia]

its actually so tilting to hear you say something like

"oh its easy to push eliminations, it's just hard for

you

to push the eliminations

you

want"

and that it's just a "narrative"

[Aristeia]

he doesn't understand why you bother to sign up for games if you're going to not play them

[Aristeia]

This is basically the reason for how I responded the way I did. Saying we had no chance of making the right choice just seems weird. Throw all the statistics and odds out that you want but this just feels like too little too late justification for doing next to nothing day 1 when many of us were having constant conversations about what was best to do. It’s easy to say after the fact that it was pointless once you know the result.

geraintm says this in every game he plays

[Aristeia]

Oh. Well that’s unfortunate for my read then. I guess I should be doing research into how people play previous games if I want a full idea of why things are happening. But that just feels so tedious…

it doesnt make him town it just makes him unreadable

[Aristeia]

he has a policy of basically not playing in games

[Aristeia]

yes d1

dave do you actually want to kill Political Clout

[Aristeia]

i cant tell the difference between scum who dont care about who the elimination is and town who dont care who the elimination is so my reads are more or less worthless atp.

[Aristeia]

ok Hu Tao

let's say you actually believe NAS is mafia

what's NAS's scum team doing right now

[Aristeia]

ok Hu Tao

let's say you actually believe NAS is mafia

what's NAS's scum team doing right now

What even is this question? You could say this for anyone not just NAS

it is a fairly simple question.

you are saying NAS must be mafia and you want to lead his elimination today. so tell me what you think his teammates are doing.

[Aristeia]

Well this isn't fair I'd say I engaged a lot day 1 on my Naerys read, providing lots of reasons and proof from other games. And not only was it wrong, not many people listened anyway. So.. either way I agree what you said earlier. Day will move on when NAS is eliminated

i mean so far today you've just shouted over and over again for people to vote NAS and when i've tried to talk about other possibilities you've just said it's a bad vote or that you're town reading that slot without trying to explain your reasons or engage me on my reasons

"not many people listened anyway"

"Naerys was eliminated on Day One"

[Aristeia]

Okay listen to me again today. If I'm wrong I'll reevaluate tomorrow

my point is you dont seem like you've even done the basic work of evaluating today

[Aristeia]

aristeia seemed to scumlean gera earlier in the game but now seems to nullread. is this an accurate characterization? if so, what changed?

why do you townread hu tao

[Aristeia]

Okay listen to me again today. If I'm wrong I'll reevaluate tomorrow

my point is you dont seem like you've even done the basic work of evaluating today

You too

I'm not the one hardpushing the elimination

[Aristeia]

like a very simple and basic game state read is

"which wagon is likely to go through today"

the answer for nearly all of day two has been "NAS will be eliminated today"

so the next question is "what are the mafia doing to position themselves in the scenario that NAS dies today"

if he's mafia and scummy and not being particularly present, the easy play is to just bus him but where are the bussers?

everyone thinks Titus is a town roleblocker of sorts.

I know I'm town

Hu Tao is the one who decided NAS has to die - sure maybe there's some bus equity there but why wouldn't scum!tao just find a better target to eliminate.

Psyche jumped on and off and has wanted NAS to die from day one.

Dannflor has jumped on and off, I think if he's mafia he'd do a better job of coaching NAS than whatever this is.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It's possible the scum team includes NAS and they decided not to bus but that would require some kind of counterwagon - there is none. or perhaps they think this wagon can't reach six votes because ____ is town and tunneled somewhere else. I struggle to see this evaluation because we've had six plausible votes on NAS for some time with Dannflor, Psyche, KJQ expressing some interest.

Perhaps they thought someone would do this kind of analysis but I don't see why they would take that gamble since nothing about this game screams "analysis"


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

If NAS is town this is just a repeat of day one with a single wagon on town and a bunch of people solo voting things they don't really care about.

I also think if that's true then it's not the solo voters who are the mafia it's probly the people dictating game narrative and have about as much interest in evaluating whether we're on the right track as they do in eating spoiled cheescake.

[Aristeia]

no it'd be worse than pulling my own teeth out

[Aristeia]

i'm just explaining to hu tao that i have evaluated because her response of "no u" was annoying to me

[Aristeia]

no it'd be worse than pulling my own teeth out

I guess I should explain this because its not very clear why I dont want to kill hu tao

to put it simply - the only game state where hu tao is even possible to be eliminated today is if she is town because there is no incentive for mafia to bus her and there are enough town who either townread her or do not care about playing this game that it will be basically impossible to get the votes to yeet her.

[Aristeia]

like the issue with a 8 - 3 split in this game state is that there are enough town who do not care at all about the outcome of this game that it is literally impossible to win in many many scenarios so I am just discarding them because they are already lost

[Aristeia]

honestly at this point I'm more interested in trying to work with the people I town read then pursuing my own pet reads

I'm just working with the people who look like they're even interested in dictating the elimination at all because the people who don't care are not going to come to the table.

[Aristeia]

i lowkey think this game would be more winnable if we just yeeted random nurse on page three

[Aristeia]

what if we yeeted our IC

would it make the game more winnable

maybe it would

[Aristeia]

sometimes its more constructive not to say all the things we think

are you going to answer me about why you townread hu tao

i've skimmed your entire iso it better not be "because NAS is pushing Hu Tao for that wiki article"

[Aristeia]

if I had a day vig I'd shoot RN just to see Datisi's reaction in the mod PT

[Aristeia]

our IC has graced us with his presence but he can't find the mafia who is driving the NAS wagon

if only his work was not so busy we could be guided to the promised land

[Aristeia]

our IC has graced us with his presence but he can't find the mafia who is driving the NAS wagon

if only his work was not so busy we could be guided to the promised land

All these flavors out there and you choose to be toxic.

Tell me, what did we do to spur you to wake up out of bed and choose violence?

I just miss the warmth of your guiding light

[Aristeia]

im just convinced that hu tao has been trying to sort slots, and that their trajectories around key moments has been organic

but i havent gotten around yet to really putting this thinking under a microscope

sure give me an example or two of hu tao "sorting"

[Aristeia]

our IC has graced us with his presence but he can't find the mafia who is driving the NAS wagon

if only his work was not so busy we could be guided to the promised land

All these flavors out there and you choose to be toxic.

Tell me, what did we do to spur you to wake up out of bed and choose violence?

well if you actually want an explanation;

I just wrote 2099

and I am working to try to figure out if Hu Tao/Psyche actually believe in this NAS lim or if they're just doing whatever cuz he's an easy target

so when I see you re-enter the thread after a lengthy absence of doing absolutely nothing and start hypothesizing about things I've already laid out and then claim you can't be available to sort it out while continuing to afk-vote me with absolutely no effort to sort out exactly who is the mafia who is driving this NAS-town-wagon as you claim is happening.

it tilts me tremendously.

like even if you came in with "Ari is mafia and she's trying to drive the NAS-mislim" that would be better than this thing where you just say something and do nothing to work it out.

[Aristeia]

I literally cannot see a path to Hu Tao being scum. I think we’re going in circles trying to find reasons Hu might be bad. If we’re voting NAS, I’m fine with it. PC? Sure let’s do it. But I think we’re chasing our tails with the Hu discussion. I’m ready to put Hu next to RN on my list.

can you say why hu tao can't be scum

[Aristeia]

no no if you're town clout try to ride the summer of love. we don't have to be one of those towns that hates itself. we can win through consensus.

i want to believe in this so bad

lets all just agree to sheep our beloved IC so we can put aside these petty squabbles

[Aristeia]

okay maybe you can be town

maybe there's just a 2 person scum team and it's geraintm and NaS who have both rolled over and died oh and RN is a traitor godfather activated-IC

what if RN is the only mafia that would be the pinnacle of normal mafia

it could never be topped again

Datisi would retire from modding secure in the knowledge that he could never be outdone

[Aristeia]

I guess there could be a world where KJQ+Psyche are mafia and Hu Tao is being used by them to ram mislims down our throat while they laugh in the scum pt but I guess thats probably an unwinnable game state

[Aristeia]

i just hope datisi is having fun

he always roots for the scum so he's probably having a lot of fun

[Aristeia]

i'm going to allow myself to live in the fantasy world where the mafia team is just NAS - Clout - Gera and we're going to stomp them because we need to get KJQ a win in her first game so she doesn't think this site is a cesspool of negativity and toxicity.

[Aristeia]

I'm so excited

[Aristeia]

No more stalling

psyche has to get bagels at costco though

[Aristeia]

I was thinking about what kind of weird shenanigans Datisi could come up with.

and I thought the funniest would be if the setup was something like

3x Mafia Strongman
1x Activated IC Macho Strongman Enabler
3x Random town protective/blocking roles
6x VT

I hope you find this amusing Dats.