Newbie 2082 - Game Over

[Greeting]

Greetings!

I don’t like Aristotle and I guess this extends to wannabes/imposters. VOTE: pseudoAristotle

[Greeting]

Greetings!

I don’t like Aristotle and I guess this extends to wannabes/imposters. VOTE: pseudoAristotle

What's your beef with him?

I don’t like Ancient Greek philosophers. I know literally nothing about the player.

[Greeting]

we have 2 scums, right?

We do.

and do you know who they are?

If I did I wouldn't say :p

Why?

[Greeting]

igorsprite and pseudo interaction looks weird but i think its green for both sides
greeting seems probtown, i like their presence

You’re able to tell if someone is town by three posts, two of which relate to a very obvious RVS, and one was a one-worded question? Truly astounding.

[Greeting]

igorsprite and pseudo interaction looks weird but i think its green for both sides
greeting seems probtown, i like their presence

VOTE: MafMen
Maf's post is pinging me hard, he's townreading the two newbies for an NAI interaction. Bad case of TMI. And greeting has only one post of substance. This is scum trying to make filler content and fakereading
Get on this guy

OK, I think I'd call your first point here a little odd, Thynhith. There's definitely

something

you can get from the interaction, if not much and super super inconclusively. I think I'm seeing Pseudo's actions as more inexperienced, overenthusiastic townie than such hubristic first time scum. I'm feeling okay about them for now. Igor jumping on their joke so hard makes sense, but combined with how short, yet numerous his other posts have been too I'm quite ???? Mostly a typing style thing, still pings in my head as initially worrying.

Second point though: absolutely. Greeting had some joke posting to do about philosophers and then made a one word post questioning pseudo after igor had already done the

same

thing. If I had to make a premature read, myself, I'm almost inclined to say the opposite.

Igor and Greeting, if you have anything more / anything to say about this MafMen vote I'd love to hear it!

I need to wait for the vote tally first to see if the vote in 55 is counted. I really want to vote him to put pressure, but it’s too early and too little to hammer on page 3 of Day One.

Artificial creation of content is never a townread to me.

[Greeting]

we have 2 scums, right?

We do.

and do you know who they are?

If I did I wouldn't say :p

Why?

If I knew who scum was at this juncture, it would presumably be because I am one of them , meaning it would be a mistake to tell the town. To be clear, I don't know who scum is; I have a town role.

I guess the other reason I might know who they are is reads, but I don't have any at this point other than a very, VERY tentative sus of mafmen because other people are sussing him, and I'm not sure if that counts as *knowledge*.

This is a good learning experience, I now know that "haha i could hypothetically be mafia" is not a good goof to make as town.

Glad that you got to the point yourself, and quite fast. Honestly, this is such a newbie thing to say that I don't think any scum would do as you did. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now. UNVOTE: pseudoAristotle

whoops. Greeting singular.

Yeah, I had chosen this name at random and now I regret it tbf.

[Greeting]

This game is interesting in the fact that there's a lot of players who have a similar consistency and frequency of posting. Except for one. VOTE: MargotRosa

I haven't at all forgotten about MafMen, I still see switching and hammering them as a possibility.

[Greeting]

@Greeting what's your take on the Maf wagon? Does it look pure green?
@Cattyboi you've been on the wagon quietly all along, does that mean you approve of it?

I’m suspicious of igorsprite. They really don’t sound like a townie.

[Greeting]

I'll do my thing of taking the player list and removing the least suspicious players from it and see what's left. I removed myself and all those who either sound like genuine newbies or those whom I knew from a past game (catboi).

This is what's left:

MargotRosa

: stands out because of inactivity. Scumreading for being inactive/lurking is a pretty old scumtactic/scumread. But to be fair, I don't really want to vote her out just yet.

MafMen (SE)

: perhaps a little too outspoken, originally they didn't sound very towny to me. But on second thoughts, it is doubtful if they're on the same team with igorsprite (conclusion from the voting tally). At this particular moment I feel like it's more worth it to press igorsprite a little bit more.

implosion (SE)

: I honestly have nothing to say about them. They sound... neutral.

igorsprite

: ehhh. Check their posts and see for yourself. VOTE: igorsprite

This isn't much, but it's the most I got from what was posted so far. I'm comfortable with voting igorsprite, but I can be convinced to vote out someone else from the trio. Right now the strongest case I see is igor. In my opinion, they sound like a scum who doesn't really know what to say not to slip so they say very little, if anything.


also @pseudoAristotle, please use

Code: Select all

[vote]username[/vote]

when you cast your vote for someone. That's the correct way to do it. If you don't use it, there's always a chance that a host may not count your vote.

[Greeting]

My incessant vote changing and thought processed might be seen as a bit chaotic. Unfortunately, this is also how they actually run inside of my head

Plus, I quickly came to realise that my vote on MargotRosa would do nothing until she decided to grace us with her presence. For now, I picked the most iffy player I found amongst those 4 pages that we have.

[Greeting]

Thought processes*

[Greeting]

That jump is fairly townish.

Unvote

When you said you "removed the least suspicious" but also said those you removed were genuine newbies/those from past games, i'm a bit confused - which is it?

Or do you just think you have a townread on catboi based on past games, and that the others are genuine newbies in the sense that they are newbies acting genuinely town?

I was with catboi in N2081, we both were town that game (it ended). So far, he’s acting similarly to that game.
The rest of players that I removed I find quite similar: all of them are new, all of them make newbie posts and newbie mistakes and I didn’t find anything to arise my suspicions.

So, the answer to your question is the bolded part.

[Greeting]

@Greeting i'm really not saying too much to avoid complicating myself, but not because i'm scum. So if you're town, i suggest that you be suspicious of someone else so you don't waste time.

But i'm curious, what did i say that looked suspicious?

You basically said very little, if anything. Your posts give the impression of someone who wants to seem active but without providing any content, possibly to avoid implicating yourself.

[Greeting]

@Greeting how comfortable are you now with your vote? u.u

Oh boy, this isn't good. Until we have a counterclaim, there is no reason not to believe igor.

[Greeting]

UNVOTE: igorsprite

If we really do have a tracker, then these are the remaining possible setups:

1. Mafia Roleblocker, Town Jailkeeper, Town Tracker;
2. Mafia Rolecop, Town Tracker, Town Friendly Neighbor;
3. Mafia Rolecop, Town Tracker, Town Doctor.

Let me think for a while, perhaps we can use this info to our benefit. To the other town PR:

please do not claim for now unless you find it absolutely necessary

.

[Greeting]

So there is a 33.3% chance we have a Mafia Roleblocker in the game and a 66.6% we have a Mafia Rolecop.

It isn't very good if we have setup number 1. The Jailkeeper can choose to keep igorsprite alive but we will not be able to get any benefits of their role, so essentially we will lose both PRs, with mafia always having the Roleblocker to their disposal.

I think our situation is objectively worst if the setup is number 2. Basically, we're fucked. If we have setup number 2, the Town Tracker is basically lost and there is nothing we can do about it.

If we have setup number 3 then there is hope. We could pull something akin to N2081 with Doctor continuously targeting igorsprite and igorsprite investigating players. We wouldn't have to worry very much about the Rolecop.

If we have a Doctor in the game, let me repeat,

please do not claim unless you find it absolutely necessary.

[Greeting]

Hey, at least you guys have a confirmed town and know who will die tonight @.@

You weren't even at E-1. The claim was too early. Your strategy to avoid attention was glaringly obvious and clearly backfired. You're obviously new to the game so I'll cut you some slack, but you need to be aware that you've now drastically lowered our chances of winning the game.

[Greeting]

Setup 1

Mafia Roleblocker, Town Jailkeeper, Town Tracker.

Now, if we have this setup, the way I see it, the Jailkeeper has a choice:
1. save igorsprite but his role becames basically obsolete
2. leave igorsprite to die and utilise their role the best to their own abilities.

If I were the Jailkeeper, I’d probably opt for the second option. The choice is up to you, of course, but I suggest that you visit players whom you find suspicious (other than igorsprite) and hope that you hit the Roleblocker or the Goon. The Tracker is lost and that’s it.

Setup 2

Mafia Rolecop, Town Tracker, Town Friendly Neighbor.

If we have this setup, then our situation is objectively worst. Friendly Neighbor is a relatively weak PR, nonetheless can still be useful for narrowing the suspect pool later on in the game.

I also considered the option of suggesting that the Friendly Neighbor outs themselves now and we vote out someone from outside the pool of igorsprite and the FN

, but I think that with a bit of luck, the role could be used to town’s benefit on Day Two. So don't claim and do your thing.

Setup 3

Mafia Rolecop, Town Tracker, Town Doctor.

Not all hope is lost if we’re lucky to have this setup. Doctor, please save igorsprite. Igorsprite, please investigate a player of your choice and report the result to us the following Day, regardless of whomever will that be. The Rolecop is a weaker role than the Roleblocker and so I think we don’t have to worry too much about it early in the game.

In any case, the other town PR claiming at this stage of the other game would be nothing but ranging from bad to absolutely disastrous for town so please don’t try it.

[Greeting]

I agree with implosion on his continuation with regard to the game mechanics. I haven't yet gotten acquainted with his reads on players yet.

Are you two serious?

Greeting, particulary. That's three bolded lines that indicate very clearly he understands that scum knowing who the second PR is is extermely anti-town, while embeliishing those lines with a lot of words for "I'm nto the PR you are looking for".

I'm not sure what I make of implosion coming in and commenting on that analysis, and potentially inducing others to eliminate themselves from the pool, too. Please don't.

Igor may well have done a whoopsie, but leave it at that, please.

I don't understand your point.

[Greeting]

And now for actual content.

I thought igor was town before the claim so I'm certainly not going to doubt it. I think Greeting is being fairly eminently town in general; his jump in 96 was very town like I mentioned because new scum tend to be unwilling to jump so overtly, and Greeting-scum should in principle be happy to sit on his Margot vote there with it becoming a wagon with Aristotle's vote three posts earlier. I think his jump to setup analysis on the claim is reasonable though it's not like, a strong tell.

I think Aristotle is town as well, still. igor correctly points out that 117 is a bad idea, but I disagree that it's an idea scum are likely to suggest. This is kind of just an intuition, though; I don't think scum would be so bold as to say "hey, track me" when igor would certainly know that they could be scum letting their partner kill.

VOTE: Thynhith

I dislike his recent posting. His jump onto igorsprite reads to me as scum who feels like they can get away with it. 104 before that paints such a broad brush of suspicion so as to be kind of useless, saying he has 3 people he'd like to lim out of but there's also me who's a bit too distant and margot who isn't posting. That's more than half the player list.

catboi, I don't really have a material read on yet, though it's possible I'll get one eventually.
frogsfrogs, I have trouble telling how to distinguish playstyle from actually alignment-indicative content. catboi's comment in 107 is sort of poignant but I can also imagine that post coming from town who feels they have reasons. I would like frogs to respond to that.
Val/Margot, has not posted enough.

MafMen I kind of gut townread. The continued reaction to his wagon of "eh everyone on it was probably town" is, idk, kind of too uninvested in his own wagon to be scum. I think 100 looks reasonably townish in general.

Val, me giving that analysis has nothing to do with my role. If I'm a VT, then I think it's good for the other PR to understand what they should do/how they should think about things; if I am the other PR then I want to look like a VT, so I'd still give the same analysis. Same goes for Greeting, I imagine.

If anything, I'd implore

you

to not make comments like that; commenting on what other players might say as VT versus say as PR, and (as you put it) inducing other people to make such comments, could very much risk the mafia getting insight into who the other PR is.

These are some fair reads. But I don't fully trust you. Being a player with so much experience, you definitely know what and what not to say to seem townie. I could see myself posting the exact same things if I were scum. Or maybe I'm just paranoid. But this is enough for me not to want to join your wagon.

Coming back to my list from 96:

MargotRosa

Val89

: stands out because of inactivity. Scumreading for being inactive/lurking is a pretty old scumtactic/scumread. But to be fair, I don't really want to vote her out just yet.

MafMen (SE)

: perhaps a little too outspoken, originally they didn't sound very towny to me. But on second thoughts, it is doubtful if they're on the same team with igorsprite (conclusion from the voting tally). At this particular moment I feel like it's more worth it to press igorsprite a little bit more.

implosion (SE)

: I honestly have nothing to say about them. They sound... neutral.

igorsprite

: ehhh. Check their posts and see for yourself. VOTE: igorsprite

I no longer want to vote any of these folks: igorsprite for obvious reasons, implosion for reasons described above. When it comes to MafMen, posts like 49 or 58 make me want to vote the crap out of them. I'd written off a player with a similar posting style before and it turned out they were scum.

VOTE: Val89

Why?

[Greeting]

When it comes to Thynhith, posts like 50, 82, 85 are

very

towny tbf. Mafia, especially newbie mafia do not put themselves at risk like that. So no, I will not be joining that wagon either.

Actually, I find Thynhith more towny than implosion right now.

[Greeting]

I am unsure how I am supposed to respond to both of you without engaging in the exact anti-town discussion my post was intended to help avoid.

In any case, having read through the game a little closer, I find myself liking Greeting less than I do implosion. I'm not entirely satisfied by the 'eh, maybe I'm WIFOMing away the fact I am the PR, and maybe Greeting is too' explanation - I'm less concerned about what you've said, and more what it currently unsaid but might become said by other slots if we allow the impression this "here's what I think you should do if you are our Doc/JK/FN" discussion is fair game.

I do however, largely finding myself with the reads given, with the exception of Greeting; and I found him asking the exact question I asked myself when reading Greetings readslist at 97. While I disagree with the Greeting read, I don't think the reasons given are unreasonable, even if I don't buy them as sufficent to overide the scum pings I've gotten from that slot.

Overall, despite my initial gut reaction to that slot, and the quick sheep by igor, I find myself changing my mind on that slot on a closer read, and there is enough there to actually call it a decent townlean.

The discussion around the setup is a stand out, and I'm not sure I buy the fact that someone who has been so clear about the other PR not making themselves know can struggle to understand the point I am making about it also being anti-town for the pool to be narrowed down in anyway. I also disliked the reason given for the initial igor vote, which was...well, nothing. "I’m suspicious of igorsprite. They really don’t sound like a townie." and "ehhh. Check their posts and see for yourself." isn't a justification, and I have checked, and I don't see anything obvious that would have induced me to have voted there at that point.

I'm also trying to figure out what prompted 97, as well. It doesn't appear like anyone was actually concerned about a chaotic thought process, and it comes off as a little pre-emptive.

I have some things to say about Thyn as well, but this one is my strongest scumread at present, so that's where my vote is going.

VOTE: Greeting

I still don't understand your original point. Could you please be more clear about it? Or is it too top-secret for us, peasants, to be enlightened with?

I was actually correct in my judgement of igorsprite. They did behave the exact way I felt. He did that, however, for a different reason than it is generally expected of players who act that way. It backfired, they got scared by the backfire and claimed early. I'm not particularly happy about this going the way it did, but I figured that we'd better use the info we have rather than just... ignore it.

[Greeting]

No, I am sorry, MafMan; but speculating on what setups we could be in across columns; and thereby, in the absence of WIFOM, essentially claiming VT

abolsutely is

anti-town and worthy of shade.

I don't want to draw attention to this any further than nessacary, but there is no way I can allow the idea that Val is wrong and it's OK to indulge in this to persit.

It is anti-town. End of. This is a hill I will die on if nessacary.

You created a straw man which now you're knocking down. And, when questioned, you're refusing to talk about it.

You can't point to a post where I claimed VT, because... I never did. That's your interpretation of what I did. If you want an analysis of what I actually did that's a bit more down-to-Earth, then refer to post 134 and most recent posts by MafMen.

[Greeting]

If it needs spelling out, for the benefit of slots who will hopefully read this whole exchange before commenting, so be it. There are 9 slots; One is Igor, who has claimed, 2 are mafia, who know who the other is. That leaves 6 slots.

Our other PR knows exactly what the setup is now, with Igors claim.

While it isn't fully conclusive, given the fact there could be an element of WIFOM, sitting here and speculating that we could be in column A, or alternatively, maybe column B, indicates you don't know which column we are in and thus are not that PR. Now the pool is reduced to 5. If MafMen calling me pointing this out as perfectly acceptable induces just

one other

slot to "gave their own opinions on what pr should do in each setup", then suddenly that pool is down to 4, and so on.

It might not be an exact science, but scum can certainly glean some clues, and those are clues they otherwise would not have if we just SHUT OUR DAMN MOUTHS.

I don't think any of the "opinions" or advice, or whatever it is that have been given are anything that even the greenest of newbie couldn't figure out on their own, if they are in the position of deciding what to do with a night action after the lim today. It's not helping them, it's only helping scum.

Like I said before, I never claimed to be a VT. This is your interpretation, or more accurately, misinterpretation of what I said.

Unfortunately, as town, unlike the scums, we do not get a separate thread to talk without the other team in it. So this thread is all we've got. If I can use deduction and logic to help my own team win the game, then I will. Saying that I shouldn't, and I should keep my mouth shut, because otherwise the scums can get hints from my behavior too is... absurd. Literally everything in this game is open for interpretation. This game, especially during Day One, is

all interpretation

. It is only on Day Two that we can possibly get some hard info when the PRs receive their results from Night One... if they choose to share that.

Igorsprite's claim is also open for interpretation. They could be lying, but I (and I suppose the other players too) am choosing to believe them, because no one so far has counterclaimed.

Not to mention that your thesis contradicts your earlier vote on me. If I'm scum then why would I be doing this analysis here and not in the scum thread? If I'm "clumsy town" who gives out clues to the scums then why are you voting for me?

[Greeting]

Right; Let me be absolutely crystal clear here.

If you agree with this pair, and that I am misrepresenting this issue, and that it is perfectly fine as town to speculate on what column we might be in, and that I'm doing this 'misrepresentation' because I am scum, you can signal that agreement by VOTING ME.

DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ENGAGE IN ANY ALTERNATIVE SPECULATION YOURSELF UNTIL THIS IS SORTED

You can do so after, once this situation is resolved one way or another if you still agree with these two and think it will help town.

Not to mention that your thesis contradicts your earlier vote on me. If I'm scum then why would I be doing this analysis here and not in the scum thread? If I'm "clumsy town" who gives out clues to the scums then why are you voting for me?

Scum already which column we are in.

The problem I have with you both, and it only increases the more you try and drive us down this rabbit hole and try and confuse what is a very clear cut issue, is that by openly discussing what you think should happen if it happens to be a JK, or if it happens to be a Doc, or a FN, is you run the risk of inducing other slots to ALSO do so. You can sit there and try and an wave it away with WIFOM, and say "Well, actually maybe I am the other PR, and maybe theoretically I went to the trouble of posting all these walls and imploring all the other slots not to claim today and explaining why that was bad knowing that nobody would because I'm that PR, and I drew all this attention to myself in order to paradoxically hide myself", but if your ARE town, scum still can now go and pick over your posts tonight and have a discussion about how likley that is or not, when they

would simply not have had any clues at all

had you not said anything in the first place. Again, I am concerned about other slots being induced to comment, other slots that scum can perhaps draw inferences as to how likley they are to be actually WIFOMing based on experiance or whatever.

It's quite simple. People listen to you, and start running thier mouths, scum get info they wouldn't otherwise have and get to make a judgment call on who is WIFOMing and who isn't. They listen to me, they don't. If people think I'm running some sort of scam here, they can vote me, as long as they don't buy your argument that this is OK to speculate about, because it isn't.

But here is thing, I think at least one of you already knows that, and you are scum, and you were hoping that by speculating, you might get pseudo, or Thyn, or whomever to do the same and glean some info you might not already have.

Just... what?

This is the weirdest thing to ever happen in any mafia game I've ever been part of. And I've done around 30. Prompting people to post is common, but attempting to force people... not to post?

At this point I cannot tell if this is real or some elaborate mafia stunt which is meant to confuse town.

And also, replying to the bolded sentence, as implosion already pointed out correctly in 130, the scums do not necessarily have to know what game setup we have, if their PR is Rolecop.

[Greeting]

The bolded sentence reads "Scum already which column we are in". Not "scum already know what game setup we have".

They already knew this at the very start of the game though?

[Greeting]

i agree with val89, i think that greeting is only complicating the situation, like when he said that my claim is open for interpretation. btw that affirmation contradicts what he said here 119

VOTE: Greeting

No, it doesn’t.

—————

I think I’ve made up my mind. Having looked back at Val’s posting history I’m choosing to believe this is a stunt which is meant to confuse town. VOTE: Val89

[Greeting]

Which bit of that history convinced you?

Pretty much all I've seen. I wanted to check if you do this type of stuff in other games and I didn't find anything to match. I obviously didn't read all your posts, but those I have otherwise sound pretty normal, whereas here you're acting really weird with those wild conclusions from the beginning.

And since I cannot find a logical train of thought, but a string of conclusions that come from a bizarre assumption, perhaps the only answer is that there isn't any logical train of thought, and your actual goal is to confuse and disorganise town.

[Greeting]

As I expected.

That's the second time in seven pages a read has amounted to "well, it's obvious, isn't it? Just..all of it" without anything concrete.

All of your posts are pushing a bizarre theory about how using logic to figure out the gameset is giving out ideas to the scums. There’s not many of them, but you’ve already managed to successfully derail the game and capture everyone’s attention.

[Greeting]

True, you "using logic" to "figure out the gamestate" (alongside the comments regaridng igors claim), and more importantly,

opening the door for others to do so

is a big part of it, but don't think for a second I'm going to allow you to reframe my case as being that exclusively.

I also disliked the reason given for the initial igor vote, which was...well, nothing. "I’m suspicious of igorsprite. They really don’t sound like a townie." and "ehhh. Check their posts and see for yourself." isn't a justification, and I have checked, and I don't see anything obvious that would have induced me to have voted there at that point.

I'm also trying to figure out what prompted 97, as well. It doesn't appear like anyone was actually concerned about a chaotic thought process, and it comes off as a little pre-emptive.

It's really flimsy though. Honestly.

Regarding igorsprite, I've already referred to this in 148, and I believe there's no need for any more explanation.

And there's nothing more to 97 than what was posted. Not sure how you're going to figure out whatever it is that you're figuring.

[Greeting]

Why

did you post 97? What prompted you to say that?

An unusually quick change of mind I had. My idea for the game strategy at that time was to press your predecessor, but I quickly realised this wouldn't work because of their idleness, which I pointed out in 97. Thyhinth gave me some food for thought in 91. That encouraged me to look more deeply into igorsprite.

91 is also another townlean for Thyhinth in my eyes.

[Greeting]

An unusually quick change of mind I had.

Fine. But that was already self-evident. Anyone looking at your previous posts could see you had changed your mind. Nobody asked you about it.

Why the need draw attention to your own 'chaotic thought processes'. Where you concerned if you didn't pass comment, it would come off as scummy?

Because my thought processes are chaotic. All my posts would have been chaotic, if I hadn't been pre-writing the longer ones in .docx or mass hitting preview before posting them.

[Greeting]

Something's quite not right here. Val89 suddenly went from outlandish theories, like in 132, 143 to suddenly being quite precise while boldly questioning me. Almost as if two different people are playing using that account. That, or this is some elaborate mafia scheme.

My instinct says vote out Val89 and I'm getting more confident in that vote.

[Greeting]

MafMen seems to be devoting their energy to fighting off Val's nonsense and they were the one who actually started the wagon. Whereas, in 165 it was made quite clear that MafMen is another player Val wants gone from the game. I did suspect MafMen before and now I'm with them on Val89's wagon too. Could MafMen and Val89 be paired and heavily distancing themselves from one another?

This

could

make sense, but I don't want to bias myself too hard into not seeing alternatives.

[Greeting]

Greeting, I don't *agree* with Val's take on the setup discussion either but I don't think calling any of his posting "outlandish theories" is accurate. I think they're entirely plausible as a way someone could view a mafia game.

Consider that if one is playing as mafia in a mafia game, they have basically no incentive to post something that they think is actually outlandish. Scum want to appear reasonable. If Val is scum and posting these "outlandish theories" despite knowing that they're bologna, what is his motive? It seems like the only result is him getting attacked. Beyond that, igor agreed with him; do you think both he and igor are living in some alternate-dimension where logic works differently?

I think it's broadly true in mafia that if you find someone's line of reasoning entirely logically inconsistent, that's probably got little to do with alignment, it probably has more to do with you and that player having different ways of thinking logically.

I feel quite confident Val is town right now and though of course I could be wrong, I'd like you to take a step back and think about

why

Val would be playing this way if he's scum. What does he gain from doing it?

My vote on Val in 169 may have looked as a spite vote, but actually I was thinking very long and hard about it and I came to the conclusion that this must be a ploy. As I had pointed out in 173, Val's theory of rejecting logic, which I strongly disagree with, has successfully hijacked this game and even managed to bring igorsprite on board. Quite frankly, I think that us refusing to consider possibilities and embracing secrecy is not just pointless, but leading to some kind of harmful frenzy.

[Greeting]

Well, let's just shut this down right now, shall we.

It's not an outlandish theory at all. It has borne out in a previous game I played in (and lost!), and have no desire to repeat.

I am refering to Newbie 2073, which catboi also played in. There, someone fake-claimed Mason (in fact a TOWN made that fake claim, if you can beleive that), and just after I left the thread, 4 slots (including scum) managed to talk themselves out of the true PR pool by commenting on that claim and speculating on what it meant for the setup, even after I had warned them against it; and sure enough, one of our true PRs was quickly NKd from the remaining slots that night.

I have no desire to see that, or anything remotely like it, repeated.

Okay, so let's assume that igorsprite is lying. Regardless of their alignment or intentions.

We have 3 possible combinations in which we have an actual Tracker in the game and so, they will know about the lie.
There are no setups in which both Tracker and: Cop or Mason exist. There are 4 slots in total including any of these two roles. So, if there is a Cop or Mason in this game, they will know that a Tracker doesn't exist.

Which, in total, gives us 7 out of possible 9 combinations in which at least one town-aligned player is able to immediately tell that a Tracker claim is fake.

Only if we have a JK & FN or JK & VT combo, the JK or the FN will not be able to disprove the claim.

I think the odds are pretty good. Besides, if we do not have a Doctor, there's a big chance igorsprite is dying Night One.

[Greeting]

I'd like you to take a step back and think about why Val would be playing this way if he's scum. What does he gain from doing it?

Unfortuntely, I think you are wasting you time with this one, too. He has already demostrated he knows what you mean here, but only applies it when considering another scummy slot.

When it comes to Thynhith, posts like 50, 82, 85 are very towny tbf. Mafia, especially newbie mafia do not put themselves at risk like that.

Do we also honestly believe he actually doesn't understand what he is doing when doubling down and making posts like 198? I don't.

Just because you plead for town to refuse to consider game mechanics doesn’t mean I’m going to follow. Especially since I think you’re scum.

[Greeting]

You know what? Normally, I don’t do this but this time I think it’s worth it.

Put me at E-1 and I’ll hammer myself. On the condition that you vote out Val89 the next day.

[Greeting]

Not claiming VT, by the way

Hush there, scum.

[Greeting]

You know what? Normally, I don’t do this but this time I think it’s worth it.

Put me at E-1 and I’ll hammer myself. On the condition that you vote out Val89 the next day.

The offer’s on the table. Of course that means we’ll lose one townie, but the beauty of being a VT (yes, this is a claim) is that my sacrifice wouldn’t necessarily be bad for town. And if it takes down a scum then I think it’s worth it.

[Greeting]

You know what? Normally, I don’t do this but this time I think it’s worth it.

Put me at E-1 and I’ll hammer myself. On the condition that you vote out Val89 the next day.

The offer’s on the table. Of course that means we’ll lose one townie, but the beauty of being a VT (yes, this is a claim) is that my sacrifice wouldn’t necessarily be bad for town. And if it takes down a scum then I think it’s worth it.

I don't remember you reacting this explosively to getting tunneled in our last game. What's up?

I really don’t like Val’s entrance to this game and I’m convinced that it’s in our best interest to vote them out.

[Greeting]

Val89 cosying up to catboi. Wonder what the response will be.

[Greeting]

As much as I'd like to see Val89 voted out, I don't think we have a majority for that now. What's the case on Thyhinth? I see them as mostly towny.

[Greeting]

I know this is activity-based meta, but I see frogsfrogs online most of the time I'm around and they have almost three times less posts than I do. They aren't posting in any other games. What's up with that? In 221, Val89 strongly townread frogs, without really saying why.

Maybe I'm being paranoid about this, but I think it should be pointed out.

[Greeting]

I’m... not hiding my online status.

[Greeting]

I don’t know about MafMen. Seems weird that you’d ask me to speak for them.

[Greeting]

This must be a problem on your part, because I see myself appearing there quite clearly. I'm aware that you can hide your online status, but I have no reason to do so.

[Greeting]

do you guys have any idea of what i should do? '^'

It'd potentially help if you were more open with your thought process; this isn't *as* important in this game as it would be in an average game since your claim makes you very likely town, but it could help if you gave more examples of things you agreed/disagreed with, found indicative of people being townish/scummy, etc.

Right now I'm generally happy with the game state; I have no particular impetus to do much until Thynhith is able to post more and respond to the pressure on him.

hmm... i think that greeting is sus because he is talking too much and that self hammer thing was weird, and i sus frogsfrogs too for sitting on the fence. for the others i don't have any specific thoughts

But you don't think Val89 or MafMen are sus for doing the exact same thing?

Sure, self-hammer play is controversial, but it doesn't make sense for me to do that while being scum.

If I'm scum, get put at E-1 and do as I said I would, then I will flip scum and no one will listen to what I had to say. Or they will be trying to find out whom I was protecting or deflecting attention from. Also, my team will now consist of just one player.

If I'm put at E-1 and don't do as I said I would, that will be suspicious in its own right and most likely someone else will hammer me anyway. And in the unlikely case that town is unable to find any other player to hammer me, then this will be brought up against me for the rest of the game.

Sounds like pretty poor deal for a scum to be fair. I wouldn't have done that if I were scum or a town PR. It would be unlikely for me to do that in most games, but like I said multiple times before, I think this time it's worth it.

[Greeting]

Sure, self-hammer play is controversial, but it doesn't make sense for me to do that while being scum.

It certainly makes sense for you to

threaten

to do so as scum at this point, early, when there isn't much of a wagon building on you.

It makes sense because you can then go ahead and make this exact post - but the logic present only comes in to play if you ACTUALLY get put to the test. I would perhaps buy it if you were at E-2, or something, but you aren't, and I think you are trying to bank on the fact that it might buy you just enough unjustified towncred to avoid getting there.

You acknoledge that the play is anti-town, because you say it's worth it this time - I can only assume because you are just so

sure

that I am scum, and a scum worth taking out on D2, even at the expense of your own life - and yet, when questioned, your reasons for such amount to what? You "really didn't like my enterance".

I just don't see how that's a reasonable conclusion, and thus I think this isn't about me at all; it's about you, and trying to buy some towncred as soon as you come under pressure. If you aren't scum, then you running around acting like some sort of loose cannon and compounding the mistakes already made this game to reduce the chances of a town victory; this self-hammer malarky, the early VT claim, the wild and totally off-base reads, etc and frankly we can do without you anyhow.

I'm willing to put this to the test; which is why my vote remains where it is. Anyone care to join me?

That’s actually great. Anyone joining?

[Greeting]

I know this is activity-based meta, but I see frogsfrogs online most of the time I'm around and they have almost three times less posts than I do. They aren't posting in any other games. What's up with that? In 221, Val89 strongly townread frogs, without really saying why.

Maybe I'm being paranoid about this, but I think it should be pointed out.

Is this a normal line of questioning in long-form mafia? I don't know if it is but I don't really like this post. Does not seem substantial and I'd say this if it weren't about myself either.
I'm 1. not sure how having my game tab open all the time interacts with online status, but 2. self admittedly a complete newbie. TT_TT I don't think I check in as often as you're saying but at times I

do

catch up on reading and have no idea what to say and share. That's true!

I can admit to doing a bit of actual lurking today, if that's what you're accusing, though, with seemingly no one around and my current suspicion fully away from the game. Again, didn't want to retred the previous discussion either.

As much as I'd like to see Val89 voted out, I don't think we have a majority for that now. What's the case on Thyhinth? I see them as mostly towny.

His most decisive attempt to scumhunt was with the MafMen wagon, taking up most of his posts, but other than that he's been extremely general when he's given reads. 104 and 83 and 216 are examples. Why does he only say "something" about the argument between you and Val89 "irks him"?? I don't think his town advice posts have been necessarily alignment indicative either, and he and Val have each been referencing a past game for some meta behavior arguments.

Okay, I like this response.

[Greeting]

Sorry, but that's bullshit. It's basically the only defense that would fly.

You are trying to tell me if you are scum, you would consider shooting a claimed VT with 2 PRs outstanding, unless you thought there was a chance they were lying?

PR roles can be useless if their players can’t make good use of them. Plus, some PR roles are stronger than others. If I were scum, I wouldn’t care more about a Friendly Neighbor than a claimed VT who has had good suspicions.

[Greeting]

I’m pretty confident in my stance. MafMen is pretty confident in their stance. Val89 is pretty confident in their stance.

If the two of you are town and we all stay adamant, in combination with a claimed Tracker, then this game is lost and tbf we deserve it.

[Greeting]

Is that a hammer? I'm sorry, I was at V/La for the last few days for health reasons. But it looks like I'm late to the party anyway.

[Greeting]

Atp we have just under 2 days left, and I'm only comfortable limming Val or Maf. Val doesn't look like he's actively trying to lim someone, and is likely waiting as long as he can before hammering me, or best of all for someone else to do it.

For me his behavior this game is just too similar to what he pulled in our last game - gets locked into arguments with people, refuses to stop yammering about a single post.

Tries his best to discredit someone. I'm a little disheartened no one took a look at the previous game. Frogs says he's convinced Val can't be town, which seems incredible. If Val flips red he's definitely a potential partner.
VOTE: Val
I'd be alright getting behind a Maf wagon as well, but Val is first choice

So he's done this before?

[Greeting]

Before the thread is locked for end of day:

Setup 1

Mafia Roleblocker, Town Jailkeeper, Town Tracker.

Now, if we have this setup, the way I see it, the Jailkeeper has a choice:
1. save igorsprite but his role becames basically obsolete
2. leave igorsprite to die and utilise their role the best to their own abilities.

If I were the Jailkeeper, I’d probably opt for the second option. The choice is up to you, of course, but I suggest that you visit players whom you find suspicious (other than igorsprite) and hope that you hit the Roleblocker or the Goon. The Tracker is lost and that’s it.

Setup 2

Mafia Rolecop, Town Tracker, Town Friendly Neighbor.

If we have this setup, then our situation is objectively worst. Friendly Neighbor is a relatively weak PR, nonetheless can still be useful for narrowing the suspect pool later on in the game.

I also considered the option of suggesting that the Friendly Neighbor outs themselves now and we vote out someone from outside the pool of igorsprite and the FN

, but I think that with a bit of luck, the role could be used to town’s benefit on Day Two. So don't claim and do your thing.

Setup 3

Mafia Rolecop, Town Tracker, Town Doctor.

Not all hope is lost if we’re lucky to have this setup. Doctor, please save igorsprite. Igorsprite, please investigate a player of your choice and report the result to us the following Day, regardless of whomever will that be. The Rolecop is a weaker role than the Roleblocker and so I think we don’t have to worry too much about it early in the game.

In any case, the other town PR claiming at this stage of the other game would be nothing but ranging from bad to absolutely disastrous for town so please don’t try it.

[Greeting]

No one died. This means: we have a Doctor who saved the nightkill or we have a Jailkeeper who targeted either the nightkill or someone who might have tried to kill.

Or...

someone

is lying.

I honestly don’t understand why no one is discussing this. What a weird game.

[Greeting]

No one died. This means: we have a Doctor who saved the nightkill or we have a Jailkeeper who targeted either the nightkill or someone who might have tried to kill.

Or...

someone

is lying.

I honestly don’t understand why no one is discussing this. What a weird game.

Please, stop trying to drag my townlean into the ground.

Is this just because you think he could be rolefishing?

Not rolefishing, but the part bolded just feels entirely like shading Igor, an unCCed claim remind you.

Oh, lied about what i did last night to see you guys reaction xd. i used my role and we have a doctor

Looks like my post aged even better than one could expect.

@igorsprite give me one good reason why I should believe your second claim and not vote you out for nonchalantly lying.

[Greeting]

mind you greeting is off in a world of their own

Let's just...stop talking about PRs please and get actual reads in.

I’m definitely starting to think that my world is quite different to that of the rest of players in here. In my mind, discussing what PRs we have could give us an advantage. Of course, each of the PRs are free to act as they wish and we cannot force them to do anything, but this is a team game and a team effort. It seems that my viewpoint is not shared and I fail to understand why. Like, I understand that some are afraid of giving the scums ideas, but they are doing the literally same thing in their thread anyway, plus by knowing their PR they had an advantage from the start. If I were one, figuring out the game setup would be the first thing on my list.

I believe that they definitely didn’t decide to deliberately not kill a player but were stopped by a player with a PR. Thankfully, it seems that whomever it is, is smart and saved someone from the NK.

[Greeting]

I’ve lost all trust in igorsprite. It’s really intriguing that the exact thing that Val89 was talking (and I suppose warning) about before (in 187). I hope that it’s just a funny coincidence and not for instance some kind of teamplay where one scum plays the messy newbie and the other expert who explains the behaviour of the other. While the appearance of Val89 in the game, which happened after igorsprite’s claim, would seem to contradict this, perhaps this was a plan devised as a way to explain igor’s false claim later in the game.

But only the person with a power role will know if igor is town or not.

[Greeting]

Yeah, I’m willing to let igor go. VOTE: igorsprite

[Greeting]

Ok but where is Greeting?

On holiday, but still wanting to play the game. And I’m catching up right now.

[Greeting]

One last things:

@igorsprite:

if you got a report, you should say so

but should not out the contents of the report

. the mafia already know whether or not there is a roleblocker/jailkeeper in the setup, so outing this info can only benefit town.

i didn't use my role last night because i thought that i was already dead

Oh, lied about what i did last night to see you guys reaction xd. i used my role and we have a doctor

just clarifying, i'm not the doctor, i said that my role worked and i think that the doctor protected me last night

What the hell is going on here? Why did Greeting and catboi align so quickly after catboi claimed VT, as if that couldn't be false?? Igor, what is it you're saying about your track results? Did you see catboi visit someone or not???

i didn't see lol, the jailkeeper targeted me last night so i received no result

I’ll maybe consider not voting the hell out of you if you start being even remotely believable with this. The fact that you’re a newbie might have justified you once in my eyes, but I don’t buy this or any of that supposed chaotic good energy. To me it sounds more like chaotic evil which attempts to hide their chaos with even more chaos.

[Greeting]

^ To put it very simply, post 2 has a table with all possible power role combinations in the game. You once claimed to be targeted by a Jailkeeper and saved by a Doctor, which is impossible, because these two roles never appear in one cell.


Making up shit to go honestly is just digging your hole to me.

[Greeting]

I want a promise from everyone that after you flip me, implosion gets insta-voted tomorrow.

There is no way town is this far up their own ass, when called on his shallow reasoning he gets smug and dismissive, he knows he has the upper hand here, whatever. There's no way any of this treatment of me is remotely good faith and he is straining in the most tenuous way to shut down my objections rather than considering that this could be coming from town perspective.

WHEN I FLIP TOWN, YOU VOTE IMPLOSION 100%

Why? I see them as very neutral really, they attempted to mediate between me and Val89 in 186 and later posts. Mafia really have little reason to do such thing. It sounds like a low-risk low-reward kind of deal lol.

he's coasting on too-confident townreads and shallow POE

You're saying this to call me scum, but this is actually a way to describe my town playstyle that is a remarkable combination of accurate and uncharitable. Falling into too-confident townreads that I fail to get myself out of is something that happens and that I sometimes shoot myself in the foot with, but I also ride those townreads to victory sometimes (I'd like to think more often than random but like, I'm not especially good at online mafia lol)

implosion taking his foot off the gas here to randomly defend himself from an off-hand comment of catbois doesnt look that good in all fairness

It looks like they just lost their cool. Happened to me before, in this game as well. I’ll follow up on their case though.

[Greeting]

Here's a question for Greeting, why do you not trust igorsprite's tracker claim exactly? Because I feel like a lot of the logic makes it hard to assume that.

They made a few statements which contradict one another. Expanding on what I said in 582, you don’t sound very believable if you change your version multiple times. It occurs to me that the lies were brushed off by catboi as newbie nonsense, but I don’t share that view. I think it’s scumplay and its goal is to be brushed off as incompetence.

[Greeting]

Here's a question for Greeting, why do you not trust igorsprite's tracker claim exactly? Because I feel like a lot of the logic makes it hard to assume that.

They made a few statements which contradict one another. Expanding on what I said in 582, you don’t sound very believable if you change your version multiple times. It occurs to me that the lies were brushed off by catboi as newbie nonsense, but I don’t share that view. I think it’s scumplay and its goal is to be brushed off as incompetence.

Okay, so then according to that logic couldn't your self vote also fall under "It's scumplay and its goal is to be brushed off as incompetence"?

There’s virtually no reason for me to hammer myself on Day One if I’m scum. It

could

make sense late in the game - as a way to divert the blame from the other scum member, but there is absolutely nothing a scum could gain from being voted out Day One. Val has, however, made a point that pretending to put myself at risk could be a way for me to gain towncred, since I wasn’t really in danger of getting voted out at that time. I guess that if you want to find out if I’m a man of my word, you’ll have to put me at E-1 to find out.

[Greeting]

...val. VAAAAAL.


Mind explaining THIS:

Spoiler:

- He's dumping this game again as VT for an even future scum game (worse than last time because of how last time went)
- This is that future game where he's scum (cashing in on the last game to take this town down)

Frankly, I agree in princible that claiming VT as early as this is an objectivley poor play as town; James obviously disagrees, but that's where I am at.

I don't see why claiming VT is good for scum though - In other words, I'm not sure; whether it's this game or a future one, how claiming VT helps a scum!James take down town. Nobody else is following his example, and a scum!James know he aint a town PR by definition.

Would you explain why you think an early VT claim as scum helps scum (I know why an early VT claim

as town

helps scum), if you think I've missed something?

Given you agree this was "objectively poor for town", then unless you can point to activity that is more objectively bad for town, my vote lands here.

That's fine. My point was that, although it's objectively anti-town, it looks to me to be just as anti-scum, too. My question to you was 'what advantage does scum gain by an scum making an early VT claim', and since your answer has been focus on about how we should be discouraging anti-town behavior and you don't want to move your vote until you see something else anti-town, I'll take it that you can't see the advantage for scum either.

CLSR has it right - I think it's anti-scum, in that it both attracts attention to the slot; and it basically locks at least one scum out of fake claiming a PR; and I would argue that is true whether it's double goon or not.

Yes, it's anti-town. Yes, that behavior should be discouraged, and has been. I think it's just as anti-scum though, and therefore I think we should be viewing anyone using this as the main or only justifaction for a wagon on James with a little bit of suspicion.

In here you have a previous game where you expressed belief that someone claiming VT early, while anti-town, is also lacking in scum motivation. And yet, in THIS game that was your justification for pushing Greeting as scum, talking about how claiming VT "isn't hekpful". How do you square these beliefs?

I would like to point out that originally I did not claim VT. It was something that Val89 implied from my post, tried to force it upon me and ultimately I felt like I was forced to openly claim it.

[Greeting]

And correct me if I'm wrong, since multiple people have said this, didn't Igor say that he lied, so then it's not a contradiction?

Of course, you can make three different statements and then say that you lied, but this doesn’t necessarily mean that at least one of the statements is true.

[Greeting]

And correct me if I'm wrong, since multiple people have said this, didn't Igor say that he lied, so then it's not a contradiction?

Of course, you can make three different statements and then say that you lied, but this doesn’t necessarily mean that at least one of the statements is true.

so in this fantasy world where igor HAS to be fakeclaiming tracker, why is there no cc's? or are you just going to parrot what catboi said about it being the goon setup? even though i guarantee that wasnt why you suspected igors claim before

I didn’t even notice that catboi said anything about there being a Goon setup. To be fair, I took a step back, because due to a very surprising coincidence the exact thing that Val89 was

warning

town about happened - we have a fake claim.

I’ll choose a narcissistic way to respond as to why there was no counterclaim: because I repeatedly warned the other PR not to do it and it seems like they might actually know what they’re doing.

[Greeting]

And regarding catboi... I admit that I skimmed through the posts which built up their wagon but nothing really picked my interest. It was intense enough to make them mad, and that’s all I gathered from it. Perhaps there is some bias involved on my part, but catboi wouldn’t be my pick for an eliminating vote today.

[Greeting]

I'd still like greeting to explain their catboi read as well as talk more about igor. He's been favorable towards them all game and only explained, once, that they think they're acting within meta from a previous town game they were in together. Is it really that strong of a read on just that basis??

When it comes to catboi, I must admit I wasn’t very interested in them from the very start of the game. My assumption was that, knowing them from N2081, I will figure out if something is wrong eventually. I cannot say that he’s a full townread in my eyes, but he’s in the lower half of my to eliminate list for sure.

My reasoning may come off as simplistic here and it kinda is. But to be fair, I never felt the need to go in deeper.

1. Getting emotional in mafia games happens all the time. I used to look down on this, but to be fair, I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s just human nature. It is a sign of frustration and a pretty natural response to being wrongly accused. In my experience as a mafia player I’ve virtually never seen a scum do that. And you would need to be very convincing to fake it well. Catboi did visibly get frustrated and annoyed at the game, as evidenced in 306, 429 (I did the exact same thing, and also not willingly) and the posts that followed from then towards what was so far the peak of his wagon. Note borderline abusive posts like 488 lol. I’ve wanted to write posts like that, but held back - looks like catboi has slightly less self-control.

1a. Spat with implosion - similar to what I had with Val. This just doesn’t really feel like a mafia thing to do. Scum getting in spats with townies - almost always discussed in games, almost never happens in reality.

2. Their analyses are unusually deep for a scum. Reading mine was admittedly quite interesting. They actually took the effort to audit all my posts in this forum. That’s a quite desperate thing to do to get a read on someone, and scums don’t really have the reason to do that. I’ve intentionally made myself quite an easy target to eliminate and yet instead of saying „screw that, he’s annoying”, let’s go for it, catboi goes out of their way to test me to the best of their possibilities.

3. Thinking out loud - another towntell. Scums want to seem consistent to avoid getting called out on it. Some townies avoid it as well in order to not draw too much attention to themselves. In my experience, I have only had very experienced scums doing that thing. Catboi has been longer on this site than I’ve played mafia overall, so I imagine that they’d have the ability to pull this off, but in combination with 1, 1a and 2, it doesn’t ring any alarm bells in my mind.

There are, however, some things which concern me. I felt like there happened a spike in his activity when his wagon built up. Getting too defensive while being VT (they hardclaimed it) without any explanation seems odd. I find the ability to take risks with one’s own life as the peak of VT potential and I would expect an experienced player to know and understand that.

Nonetheless, we have a lying „newbie” and a polarising despot in the game which definitely managed to pick my attention and this is the direction that I’m facing.

[Greeting]

Darnit I was trying to get the page top. I got baited into saying it too early.

There's still one thing that's bugging me about all this Greeting talk, is what is the point Greeting is even trying to do with pushing Igor? Does he still think that Igor is scum, and just isn't thinking about the risks that come with this, because I don't feel like they actually have if I think they are town.

I am aware of the risks. Of course, it would be far from ideal if we vote someone who has a power role. But his carelessness fully assured me that, at best, they’re a Jester who will only serve as a distraction and essentially of no good use for town. They didn’t even use their supposed role Night One, because they thought they would be dead anyway. Or at least that’s one of their versions - not sure which one is considered to be the truth by others now.

Perhaps this can also be explained with my experience from N2081, where I actually held back town from eliminating a Jester-like player early in Day One thinking that they were, at worst, harmless. Ultimately, I was the one to hammer them and it turned out they were scum. This experience lessened my trust for players who are less invested or have an unconventional approach to playing the game.

[Greeting]

@frogsfrogs Oh, and you asked about igor. Read my previous posts (and 702) - nothing has changed so far. They’re still trying to pull off the inexperienced newbie card to mask their previous lies. I just refuse to buy it. I hate to say stuff like this as I don’t like to drag people down, but at best he’s just a really bad player lacking any goal whatsoever other than artificial drama - in short, a Jester.

[Greeting]

Darnit I was trying to get the page top. I got baited into saying it too early.

There's still one thing that's bugging me about all this Greeting talk, is what is the point Greeting is even trying to do with pushing Igor? Does he still think that Igor is scum, and just isn't thinking about the risks that come with this, because I don't feel like they actually have if I think they are town.

I am aware of the risks. Of course, it would be far from ideal if we vote someone who has a power role. But his carelessness fully assured me that, at best, they’re a Jester who will only serve as a distraction and essentially of no good use for town. They didn’t even use their supposed role Night One, because they thought they would be dead anyway. Or at least that’s one of their versions - not sure which one is considered to be the truth by others now.

Perhaps this can also be explained with my experience from N2081, where I actually held back town from eliminating a Jester-like player early in Day One thinking that they were, at worst, harmless. Ultimately, I was the one to hammer them and it turned out they were scum. This experience lessened my trust for players who are less invested or have an unconventional approach to playing the game.

I get that it would lessen your trust for players who are less invested, or have an unconventional approach to a game. However, it doesn't really make sense why you'd be fine with eliminating what you consider a Jester (I'm calling it wildcard though).

It's weird because it feels like you know they are an UnCCed PR, yet still continue to push that slot because it's a useless slot and more likely to flip scum?

I don’t understand your feeling. I’m VT, I had claimed VT before. I have no powers which would allow me to

know

if someone is scum. All I have is my own convictions. And what I was saying was that I don’t think we would be very much at a disadvantage with igor gone, in the case that one of his claims is actually true.

I hope that this was just a misinterpretation and not an attempt to spin this into a weird direction.

[Greeting]

Seriously it feels like you're set on Igor's elimination, and making a decision that just straight up hurts town more often than it does help.

@frogsfrogs Oh, and you asked about igor. Read my previous posts (and 702) - nothing has changed so far. They’re still trying to pull off the inexperienced newbie card to mask their previous lies. I just refuse to buy it. I hate to say stuff like this as I don’t like to drag people down, but at best he’s just a really bad player lacking any goal whatsoever other than artificial drama - in short, a Jester.

Can I ask how you determine "pulling the inexperienced newbie card" from actual newbie play? Are there any specific posts where you feel like he's actively leveraging his inexperience? Because I feel like I've only seen him argue that he knows what he's doing.
I think it's been clarified to you before. Igor's final answer on his night action is that he was roleblocked, and both reports that he made before were lies intended to scope out catboi.

I

don't think it was successful or a great play-- I understand how that damages his credibility--

but can't you see how that's at least consistent enough to be maybe true?

I can't get past how mechanically unreasonable it is for him to be called scum here. Even under catboi's setup 2c explanation, where there's a jk that does not know yet if igor is real or not, why do we dare vote igor today, on the chance that he's our real tracker?

review edit: yes, exactly what StrangeMatter says. I honestly consider it scummy to be still trying to argue for this, for your vote to still be on him. Scum would love for everyone to say "Yeah, wait, you're right!" and lim him without them needing to use an nk.

It is possible that one of his versions is true, but he really did nothing to win back my trust.

But there is something that rings my alarm bells and that is me being completely alone on his wagon. Let’s assume that I’m correct here and igor is lying scum. That would obviously mean that there is two players out there with town PR roles, and there’s a high chance at least one of them knows and can attest to the lie. They might have not chosen to CC but at least one of them should be on this wagon.

Which, unfortunately, probably means that igor’s claim about having some kind of town role is, in fact, true.

UNVOTE: igorsprite

[Greeting]

I think I can trust catboi on this. I’ve never really let go of the idea of getting rid of Val. There are some lims that I wouldn’t be comfortable with but this one ain’t it for sure. I didn’t like his presence in the game from the very start and I can’t shake off the obviously subjective feeling that they managed to derail the whole game, but failed to really push it (even despite mine, MafMen’s or catboi’s opposition) into a meaningful direction.

VOTE: Val89

I will be returning back home tomorrow evening and I will surely look back at all his posts, but even if hammer happens before that, I am totally okay with it.

[Greeting]

VOTE: Val89

Which one of you scumbags are going to hammer me then, eh, or are both of you already on this wagon?

That's E-1, by the way, and I am a VT; before someone claims ignorance of that fact.

Pedit: No, lets. We know its catboi, lets flush out the partner.

May I ask what is the point that you are trying to make right now? I offered to hammer myself to get you down. You must have some kind of agenda to do this.

[Greeting]

Well, if that's a thing, my vote is still 'symbolically' on catboi.

But unsymbolically it is on yourself.

Implosion clearly withdrew because they’re alarmed by whatever you’re doing.

What point are you trying to make?

[Greeting]

The whole purpose there is just intimidation to try to scare people off

he was super-confident in having the solve of me/greeting earlier but suddenly he's talking about "flushing out the partner"

he wants to scare people into not voting him by making them afraid they'll get scumread for doing so

It seems that my post 777 is not worthy of an answer by Val89. Therefore, you are right, this is an intimidation tactic.

Vote Val89, y’all.

[Greeting]

The whole purpose there is just intimidation to try to scare people off

he was super-confident in having the solve of me/greeting earlier but suddenly he's talking about "flushing out the partner"

he wants to scare people into not voting him by making them afraid they'll get scumread for doing so

It seems that my post 777 is not worthy of an answer by Val89. Therefore, you are right, this is an intimidation tactic.

Vote Val89, y’all.

Why is that what you gravitate to instead of asking the question again?

I’ve already asked it twice, in 773 and 777. Without any doubt, he’s seen it. I’m not going to nag him as lack of an answer to a question that he couldn’t have missed is also an answer.

[Greeting]

While we're here, can you give a case as to why you think Val89 is scum here?

At the moment, no. But I will compile a post when I get back home today evening.

[Greeting]

Could you answer my question? A couple of names shouldn't be too hard to whack out, should it. There is a very limited pool of them.

Sure! If you answer mine first.

[Greeting]

Why I never liked Val89 in this game?

It's obviously nothing personal, I've never had anything to do with this player whatsoever. This refers purely to their presence in N2082.

Ever since they entered the game in 132, they've been obnoxiously opinionated and despotic. It's almost as if there is no other way to play mafia than what they imagined inside of their head. Regardless of the content of his posts, this type of mindset is definitely anti-town in my opinion. It is a team game, not a single-player game and town needs to work with one another or die. I might have not been the easiest to cooperate with in this game, I admit. However, I have found myself unable to cooperate with this player in any way, even though I did try to make some concessions while tunnelling them later on. It seems to me that we both have irreconcilable differences.

That doesn't, however, answer the question of why I think he's scum.

It seems to me that in his early posts of 135 and 143 he was looking for an easy target to strike, first with implosion and then with myself. This isn't necessarily very telling of either alignment, I've played with players who start with a bang and go fishing for scumtells.

Then he goes with his stupid theory, which I understand, boils down to:
1) town (in this case, me) using information provided to figure out the setup of the game;
2) scum using these conclusions to go PR hunting.

I've already said what I think of this and it's not necessary for me to repeat myself. Nonetheless, this type of attitude, as exemplified in 156 is a despotic attempt to set the tone to the entire game. That's what started to alarm me about this slot first. My view on this differs very strongly, and I see the rejection of any potential conclusions as at least an oddity. This is partly explained by him later on. 187 is something that, if I were the devil's advocate, I would say somewhat justifies their actions. But it's too weak and this could very easily be spun in the opposite way. I hold Newbies and S-E's to different standards. Val may act in an obnoxious way, but he definitely knows how to play the game and learn from past games. So it is an act I think I can expect from a non-newbie player.

In 196, amongst others, intentionally or not, Val is being manipulative. I did notice the change in his gameplay and made a comment about how it sounds as if two different players are using one account. Here, he presents it as a fact and makes it into a dichotomy with the alternative of being scum. While it is true that I've mentioned both notions, I've never been very convinced of either and I put them out as ideas. Val89 is great at manipulating stuff people said into directions they see fit and I've been a victim of that.

Another anti-town act by them was heavily insinuating that I claimed VT early in the game, which was entirely his projection. With subsequent posts like 205 they basically forced me to explicitly do it.

It was entirely possible for me to speculate on the gameplay being a town PR.

Val apparently had a different idea about this and made this into a self-fulfilling prophecy, as it did, in fact narrow the pool of potential town PRs for the mafia with my hard claim.

In conclusion, Val89 looks like he's playing a game of his own.

His later posts clearly show him doing

something

but whatever it is that he's doing remains a mystery. There is a viable explanation as to what he's doing if he's scum - either he knows that his act in this game is up, and is trying to intimidate players into not voting him (which seems to have worked on implosion and even on catboi) or trying to clear his scumbuddy - who is probably frogsfrogs.

If Val89 flips scum, I will be willing to vote out frogsfrogs in the following day. Likewise, although there is no wagon on them, if frogsfrogs were to be eliminated and flip scum, I think Val89 would be the best way to go. Their dynamics clearly look like an alliance with one defending (220, 681) (or supporting 546) the other (248, 796 - read identical to that of Val, 828 - yes, this is a vote, but clearly requested by Val89).

[Greeting]

In order from the biggest townlean (up) to the biggest scumlean (down). Consider this also to be the list of whom I will be the most or least willing to vote out at this point of the game. I can settle to vote out the moderate scumleans and scumleans if my current choice (that is Val89) doesn't have a majority to be eliminated.

Townlean

Spoiler:

catboi

- Already spoke of them in 701. Has made an extraordinarily big (and good) effort to solve the game. I didn't notice much that would really make me interested in this slot. If catboi is scum then I congratulate him, because he successfully convinced me otherwise.

igorsprite

- Although his play is, in my opinion, really bad, unfortunately it would appear that he has some sort of town PR role. If it wasn't for that, I'd be voting them out right now.

Moderate townlean

Spoiler:

implosion

- Admittedly, this isn't a very strong read, but his actions in this game seem generally quite towny. His assessment of actions of other players, including myself (in posts such as 99, 130, Something which also tells me that implosion isn't scum is the way in he tried to mediate between me and Val89, whom, I believe, at the time he considered town. His interactions with catboi scream town speaking with town (as in 511).

Looking back in retrospect, I don't like his newer posts - most notably 775 and for now that is the major reason why implosion isn't a full townread. While this carefulness makes more sense when it's early Day Phase, we are slowly nearing towards the end - and town is very clearly and seems to be unwilling to go in a common direction. This post could be interpreted as being overly careful about looking bad if Val89 flips town.

While this is partly explained by them in 845 - I have one major remark implosion - there is less than 24h left and Val89 is, at the moment, the only viable option for elimination with three votes on that slot. So if you want to make a case for someone then you'd better hurry up.

Neutral

Spoiler:

MafMen

- I don't know what to make of them, really. The content of their posts seems genuine. The wording and the frequency remind me of another user - GrandpaMo, whom I know from N2078. GrandpaMo was a scum in that game and he managed to win it. That doesn't really let me move MafMen into my townreads. It's extremely subjective, but opinions are subjective by definition.

Their reads, from 730, are quite simplistic.

He seems to have conviction in whatever he's doing at the moment, but I must admit that his reasoning for voting me, in 730, is really weak (and I'm not saying this out of spite, as Val89 had voted me before and made much more valid points!) and my wagon seems a comfy place to stay at when I'm not in danger of being eliminated. I hope he either manages to put me at E-1 (with myself voting as promised) or keeps his promise from 861, otherwise this is slowly going into a moderate scumlean.

Moderate scumlean

Spoiler:

(two players in this category are of equal suspicion to me)

StrangeMatter

- Ever since entering the game they seem to be comfortably sitting on the fence, questioning and judging around, but without going into any concrete direction. Sure, it's okay if one doesn't like my self-hammer play (374, 385) I respect that. Sure, it's okay if one thinks I'm harming town (673). It feels to me like commenting on whatever I'm doing at the moment and questioning me is an easy way to get towncred without actually doing anything themselves. It is notable to me that they haven't really shared any strong read on anyone or even voted for anyone.

While StrangeMatter isn't exactly my first choice for an elimination vote, I can join that wagon.

frogsfrogs

- I think he could be playing Robin to Val's Batman in the scum team. I totally see them working together and opting for a cooperation tactic. Of course, my scum read on them is weaker and dependent on Val flipping scum, but I wouldn't be opposed to voting them out today either. I actually agree with catboi's assessment of them in 379.

Frogs actively participates a bit more in the game than StrangeMatter. Nonetheless, I find his stances rather vague and uninformative. He made a basic readslist in 421, but I fail to see (maybe frogs can point me to it) how it affected his later behavior in the game and especially his later vote for catboi in 578? What exactly has changed? If you think that me and catboi are aligned then why didn't you vote for me instead?

In post 796 you spoke of scum being amongst the three of me, catboi and MafMen - which is an opinion you repeated from Val89 (786). Why?

Furthermore, why are you voting for Val89 if you don't think he's scum? I understand that you are voting for them because they asked you to do so (824), but what makes you trust them so much?

Scumlean

Spoiler:

Val89

- explained in 881.

[Greeting]

That seals it. Greeting why are you mirroring people's reads and such?

Let's see.

You're saying exactly what Implosion has said about my slot, I see accounts of you right now making a read that's suspiciously similar to catboi's.

I didn’t look at their reads, I mostly focused on individual posts and interactions. But if they are alike, then it’s good as it strengthens my towntell of these two.

[Greeting]

If we vote Val89 today:

- and he flips scum - I would be willing to go after frogsfrogs next;
- and he flips town - I think the scumteam is StrangeMatter and (probably) MafMen, would be willing to vote either.

[Greeting]

Hm, StrangeMatter’s reaction was too nervous for my liking.

Anyone willing to vote them out today?

[Greeting]

I'm sorry (if I'm pulling a Val89 here) but, there is no way you on pure randomness stumble into the exact same thing someone else has said.

Especially nearly word for word.

So you're implying I copied some of my reads from catboi and implosion word for word. Can you point me to some examples please? It would actually be very interesting if they really are alike - and a good sign as well. If I managed to establish a circle of people I can trust for myself, I'll be able narrow the pool of suspects. Otherwise, this game is going nowhere.

@catboi @implosion - do you think that StrangeMatter's claim about me copying your reads "word for word" is true?

[Greeting]

Go ahead and check you two. I've already shown one of the two.

If you’re accusing me of something then the burden of proof is on you. Pretend that I’m blind or whatever and point it out for me.

[Greeting]

StrangeMatter I mostly am just confused why they're seemingly universally above null; it feels like they've played quite on the outskirts today, haven't really committed to any hard stances or... voted at all yet. If you're town then they could easily be scum coasting on a good gamestate. Or if you're scum they'd make sense as a partner.

StrangeMatter

- Ever since entering the game they seem to be comfortably sitting on the fence, questioning and judging around, but without going into any concrete direction. Sure, it's okay if one doesn't like my self-hammer play (374, 385) I respect that. Sure, it's okay if one thinks I'm harming town (673). It feels to me like commenting on whatever I'm doing at the moment and questioning me is an easy way to get towncred without actually doing anything themselves. It is notable to me that they haven't really shared any strong read on anyone or even voted for anyone.

While StrangeMatter isn't exactly my first choice for an elimination vote, I can join that wagon.

These two posts are similar in content and make similar points, but I slightly expanded my read by including post examples and mentioned getting towncred and said nothing about a scum partner. Therefore, I definitely would not call it similar „word for word”.

However, I must say that I agree with implosion’s read on you as well. There’s a 170 post difference between our reads and it seems that your behavior hasn’t changed at all.

[Greeting]

In conclusion, Val89 looks like he's playing a game of his own.

I think this is a basically correct assessment that doesn't have a real bearing on his alignment

That's... true. I can accept that there is a possibility of there not being more to his behavior than that of him just being an uncooperative and stubborn single player.

Would you be willing to vote out frogsfrogs or StrangeMatter? I'm also open to the possibility of voting out MafMen, but would much prefer either one of these two.

[Greeting]

Would you be willing to vote out frogsfrogs or StrangeMatter? I'm also open to the possibility of voting out MafMen, but would much prefer either one of these two.

I'm not compromising on strange, frogs would maybe if I had to, I think MafMen is more likely to be a hit though

Alright, I'll read up some more on MafMen then.

Greeting, look at MafMen trying to say you/Val was scum theater and tell me if you think that's a theory a townie really has?

I found his reads in general to be rather shallow and easily dismissive. What I found super odd about him was the timing of his vote on me and the subsequent explanation that they don't trust my self-hammer play. That... makes zero sense.

If they don't trust my self-hammer play and think it's scum, why did they go out of their way to defend me Day One in the first place?
Why is their vote on me so conveniently timed when there's very little talk of me being voted out (there was a brief frogs vote I think, but so brief I barely noticed it)?
Why did they go 180 on me, how and when did this happen? Their readslist (730) is a smear on me and it happened a fierce defense. What made him change his point of view?

Check out GrandpaMo in N2078. GrandpaMo was scum in that game. Don't MafMen's posts sound a bit similar?

[Greeting]

*happened after a fierce defense

[Greeting]

UNVOTE:

This is the clearest that greeting has been about reads all game and I still don't trust it.

When you look at my readslist, you will find that there are two other players I find a scumlean or moderate scumlean and one more that I don't find towny either. We have two scums in this game, which means that

at least two

of these players I mentioned in my list are town. If you are one of these two townies, then may I suggest you join our efforts into looking for a suspicious player to eliminate and perhaps try to find some common ground with others. Look at StrangeMatter and MafMen. Do you think any of these two are suspicious? If so, then why?

And I ask the other players to do the same.

[Greeting]

It really rubs me the wrong way that Greeting is suddenly advocating for everyone to focus on me and MafMen. I get that attention to a slot is almost always good, that's how you read someone, but this just comes off to me as odd and I can't exactly put my finger on it but it feels...desperate to get people to push either of our slots?

Let's take a look at my readslist, shall we?

I mentioned three people as moderate scumleans or scumleans: yourself, frogsfrogs and Val89. I also mentioned MafMen as a neutral read.

It is mathematically impossible for all four players to be scums. At least two of them are town (but I am about 80% confident that there are two scums amongst these four players). What I am trying to do is to find common ground amongst townies to vote out someone basing on my readslist. I ruled out Val89, because catboi, the player I trust the most at this point, thinks his reactions are townie. I am looking for a compromise and also, I have to admit that there is a plausible explanation for his actions if he is town. It's hard to swallow your pride but it's even harder to deal with a game lost because of having too much pride.

I'm obviously not going to suggest to frogsfrogs that he vote for himself. Which is why I asked them to look at you and MafMen. Similarly, if you are town, I am not asking you to consider voting yourself but to look at MafMen and frogs.

[Greeting]

Why are you suggesting that all of the people in your scumlean look towards each other for a compromise...?

Because two of them are town and I want to hear their opinions. I also want to hear the opinions of the scums.

Why are you asking this question?

[Greeting]

Why are you suggesting that all of the people in your scumlean look towards each other for a compromise...?

Because two of them are town and I want to hear their opinions. I also want to hear the opinions of the scums.

Why are you asking this question?

Because rereading it, that feels potentially like scum doing something opportunistic, in a way that you want town members to rip into each other.

Some players indeed may rip into each other. And I don't see anything wrong with that, as long as we agree to turn it into a productive direction and ultimately have five players agree on a single player they want out.

Also, it will be far more interesting to see who doesn't rip into whom.

Let me just say that I could have just chosen to tunnel myself with my vote on Val89. Instead, I chose to try to organise townies to make an informed and reasonable push, from a narrowed list of players, that a majority can agree on.

I'm still going to read into them [...].

Thank you.

[Greeting]

So what's the case on MafMen?

Arguments for elimination

As I had mentioned before, in 890 and and 917, I don't like their posting

style

. Not because I'm some kind of English language pedantic. As a matter of fact, English is not my native language. But in my experience in this site, I've encountered two other players who had a similar posting style and

both

were scums. That posting style is grammatically liberal, without clear usage of sentences, something which I interpret as showing off a laid-back attitude. Therefore, I consider this a scumlean by association. Definitely not something that I'd wholly base a case on, but in combination with other factors, this might tip the scales.

Another thing about them that I think is really weird is their change of heart with regard to me. In posts like 288, 294, 296, 312 I am bad town. Now their assessment of me is scummy.

Spoiler: MafMen's reads of me

Greeting:

65
meh reaction
gives the attitude of "hey guys look im suspecting this just like you are, im townie right? haha"

96
the beginning of their 2 day long push on igor is absolutely horrid, they lock igor as scum and as you can see on their section for me they even sort players based on that read
all around their push on igor is bizarre and i think he put it best himself
"I think it’s scumplay and its goal is to be brushed off as incompetence."

119
looks very bad considering he still tunnels igor

120 123 127
in hindsight this looks like iioa (information instead of analysis), which is when mafia will make random posts about mechanics in order to look like theyre doing something because they struggle with faking reads, and the fact that val pushed this for its apparent antitownieness rather than this still doesnt sit right with me

204
i said it earlier but this just looks like a bluff to keep pressure from building on himself and it seemingly worked, considering people started townreading greeting mainly after this to my recollection.
in no way would we ever test him and he knew this

234
i might be getting myself wrapped up in confbias but the way this appears to me is greeting trying to dial down the theatre with val and look for a reason to agree with him

399 416 430 434
greeting, like val, seemingly forgot he ever pushed and scumread val and officially got started on his nonsensical igorsprite push
i dont know if ive said it before but its as if igor was meant to die at night and was saved, so scum!greeting uses the opportunity that arose from igor digging himself a hole to try and get a lucky igor elimination
i dont buy the whole townie stubborn tunneling bs either, and i think thats just a ruse
remember, "I think it’s scumplay and its goal is to be brushed off as incompetence."

597
still shoving this belief that he absolutely would have hammered there down our throats like its a confirmed fact

616
after looking through his iso i realize greeting sort of shifted bases here. at first he, not catboi, was the one who brought up the fact that there are setups where a tracker fakeclaim could be "confirmed," yet here he completely forgot that line of thought and went with some nonsense about pr listening to what he said and not ccing

701

lots of fluff only to say catboi is emotional and makes deep posts lol

I made many posts he's scumreading here way before MafMen even voiced the slightest suspicion about me. Why the sudden change of heart? The explanation that comes to my mind is that at this point of the game a Greeting wagon is definitely not viable and sitting on it is a comfy place to be. I mean, after all, Greeting is sus and has been suspected throughout the game so being on there can be justified. And it's a pretty easy way to avoid getting implicated with a misvote. This theory is supported by the fact that they did not join the Thyhinth wagon (368), nor any wagon actually. Mafia like to keep their hands clean and that is what might have happened.

Post 859 is nonsensical - first the assessment is that me voting igorsprite at the time is scummy, then when I unvote it's also scummy? If anything, this post makes MafMen look like a clown.

Arguments against elimination

The content of their posts seems really genuine. MafMen clearly doesn't hold back what he thinks and that is generally a sign of a townie.

He has been absolutely correct with the assessment of the game - in posts like 152, 162, 163, 265, 288. A scum wouldn't really have any reason to make such posts - seems to me like a lot of effort to get townread.

I kind of disagree with you, catboi, on his assessment of me v. Val in 730. It was an annoying and tedious argument and, although really unlikely, could have been a mafia tactic. Although obviously he's wrong on this, I think this judgement can be justified. He confirmed this in 929.

_______________

To be fair, this hasn't been helpful at all. I'm still neutral and conflicted when it comes to this slot. It is, however, around 15 hours until deadline, so if others agree on this wagon and not on anyone from the other three (Val89, StrangeMatter, frogsfrogs) then I'll join it.

[Greeting]

Alright, that’ll be E-2 then. VOTE: MafMen

[Greeting]

+1

[Greeting]

Yeah, I just spent hours to get town to agree on something, agreed to vote for someone who wasn't my second or third but fourth choice, and all this for nothing.

I'm done and I'm going to sleep.

[Greeting]

watch it be like the stupidest thing possible like greeting/igor or something

Did you trip and fall on your head while I was sleeping?

Since there is no viable wagon at the moment, I'm switching to a vanity vote.

VOTE: StrangeMatter

I also noticed that I'm at E-2 at the moment. Should one more player vote for me,

I will hammer myself

, because this will be better for town than nolim.

[Greeting]

So that seals it.

Catboi, this is kinda your fault my elimination is happening today. Had we stuck with MafMen, there was a good chance that we struck scum today.

VOTE: Greeting

My choice of player to vote out Day Three would be

StrangeMatter

. I think the mafia are amongst these four: Val89, StrangeMatter, MafMen and frogsfrogs. If I were to bet right now, I would say it is StrangeMatter and MafMen. Do with that info what you wish. I'm kinda glad I'm out of this game, because y'all were impossible to cooperate with.

See you in the postgame, maybe.

[Greeting]

Well done, town. Admittedly I had little faith in us after the bad and very frustrating start, but you did it. The scum play was below average, albeit this is a Newbie game so frogs don't beat yourself up too much about it. We all need to remember that mafia is just a one big puzzle game, with people getting angry and frustrated when getting questioned or screened.

A few things I want to address.

Firstly, no, I didn't give up on the game with my self-hammer. I just kept my word, plus it was merely

a few hours until deadline

and it was better to vote myself out for the benefit of town rather to end with a mislim. What I think happened was: MafMen convinced himself so hard that I'm just threatening to do so that they decided to sit out on my wagon as a comfy place to avoid suspicion. Then when I actually did what I said I would he was like

oh, shit

and pulled out from the game. Andante couldn't save that slot, even if they tried harder than they did. So my self-hammer turned out to be a good thing after all.

Secondly, catboi, with your incessant wagon switches I really wanted to pull my hair out because of how frustrating it was. I felt like you were on the edge of frenzy and even started getting a little bit suspicious of you in the deadthread. But you did well in the end.

Well done to implosion, I would say you did exceptionally well this game.

Finally, I'm happy that I managed to lock the suspect pool with both scums in it. Although, admittedly, Val89 would have been my first choice to vote out after MafMen/Andante flipped scum, I would have gone frogs the following Day anyways. So I still feel like a winner, even though this game made me feel very frustrated.

Val89, I have no hard feelings towards you. All I would ask of you, should we ever be in a game together again, is to be a little more cooperative and less despotic. I can accept that you have a different view of what's good for town and whatnot, but maybe if you tried to convince me, instead of going on the offensive, you would have managed to get me to townread you and this would have been easier for both of us.

Micc, thank you for hosting. I'm actually

very interested

in what you think of this game. If I were hosting N2082, I would be banging my head on the walls every 15 minutes.

[Greeting]

Yeah, igor that play was

bad

. Don't do it again like ever, PLEASE.

[Greeting]

I still find it funny how much shade was thrown at our Tracker this game as well. Had it gone through Mafia would have gotten a massive lead lol.

Is it any wonder? They made like four different claims. It's honestly a miracle that the majority of town finally settled on believing one of them.

[Greeting]

Mmm I still don’t disagree with what I thought about Greeting repeatedly saying they’d self hammer as just bluffing. Even though you weren’t it definitely seemed that way.

Igor please don’t lie multiple times you threw way too much chaos into this game lol.

It would be exceptionally bad, high-risk low-reward scumplay to do this if I were scum. And that's something I was hoping town would understand but they didn't lol.

[Greeting]

Micc, thank you for hosting. I'm actually very interested in what you think of this game. If I were hosting N2082, I would be banging my head on the walls every 15 minutes.

I think Town earned their win here. All the strong Town voices probably made Days 1 and 2 feel disjointed to players, but from my perspective

it felt like the consensus reads were always good enough that once the Town stopped talking past each other it would eventually win.

I wouldn't say there was any more head banging moments in this game than any other.

You're correct, once town managed to finally get to a consensus (which happened past my death, unfortunately), the solution of the game was within reach for town.