Newbie 1170: DarthYoshi's Medieval Mafia! (Fin--Who won?!)

[DeasVail]

Ok, so I've been told that I'm replacing someone (I'm assuming it's Zemelo-Franko) so I'll start posting now, although I'm sorry if I'm wrong in doing this.

In answer to DLE's questions:

1. No
2. M/17/Australia
3. English
4. I was playing 1 game on a different site, but had to be replaced, I’m planning to be active now though
5. A. I don’t really know, I think I tend to make long posts even when I want them to be short. I think I’m mostly passive, but I know I should try to be more aggressive.
5. B. Since I don’t really know much about my play-style, I think I’m ENFP.
6. Orange or Purple
7. LyingBrian- Obviously because he lies.
8. Tennis, also like reading fiction
9. There’s nothing that cool about myself

Regarding DLE: Although some people think his questions (particularly those that are follow-ups about colours) are stupid, I think that they seem to be a decent way of starting things off and maybe the player reactions could even tell us something.

Regarding duckhunter: I do agree that his behaviour seems scummy and it makes it easy for scum to just agree without saying anything controversial, but would scum be more careful than to behave like duckhunter and attract attention? Then again, this is a newbie game, so I can't make these assumptions. I'll just say that I've seen townies behave similarly before (agreeing with others and adding nothing new), so I think we have to be careful. Nevertheless, Duckhunter is my main suspect at the moment.

If there are any other issues you want me to share my opinion on or questions you want me to answer, let me know.

[DeasVail]

Thanks for the welcome duckhunter

It seems that my vote is on Fakinha and I don't find her particularly scummy at the moment, so

UNVOTE FAKINHA

(I hope I did that right)

I want to get everyone to talk more so:

Duckhunter: It seems that your vote is still on Fakinha, even though you said that he hasn't confirmed your susipicions. Why is this? Do you still suspect him? If so, why? Why did you find the "white is peace, red is blood" quote scummy?

Pankiller: What do you think of duckhunter's behaviour? You said you agreed with him about DLE's long posts, but what else do you think? Also, Why do you think wall-texts are scummy? The more people say, the more information we gain, and people don't have to read long posts if they don't want to, so I don't understand how it can make people tired of discussing.

Cjdrum: Why did you not answer all of the questions that DLE asked? Is it so that you can say as little as possible and be asked as few questions as possible? Do you think that mafia are less likely to answer the "U MAFFF?" question seriously?

Shinki: I must agree with Fakinha that you haven't said much. What are your thoughts?

Fakinha: What made you say with such certainty that cjdrum and sorgster are town?

DaLetterEl: What do you think of people connecting your long posts with likelihood to be scum? Do you think there is a connection? Also, how reliable do you personally think your colour test is? Why did you tell everyone to be careful with how they answer it?

LyingBrian: Why were you so cynical regarding DLE's questions? It seems that most of the current discussion has developed from them. Have you got a better way of generating discussion?

Sorgster: You've made a few posts, but it seems you haven't said all that much. What do you think of everyone so far?

(I realised halfway through that DLE posted, but thought I may as well continue. Some extra questions can't do any harm.)

In response to DLE: I didn't know that the initials made overpower. I thought everyone knew that OP meant "Obviously Pure". Anyway, I've liked orange for ages, probably because orange-coloured lollies were my favourite when I was 5. I don't know about purple. I just find it appealing for some reason.

[DeasVail]

Thanks to those who answered my questions

@DaLetterEL: I don't think that long posts make someone more likely to be scum, but I lack experience and in my previous game, almost everyone made long posts, so those who are suspecting you could have something without me realising it. I'm not really sure at the moment regarding who is scum. I'm hoping to gain more information from responses to my questions. Duckhunter is the only one that has stood out to me, but I still think he could be town.

@fakinha: I don't agree with believing that anyone is town at this early stage. I think it's important to consider the possibility of anyone being mafia.

@sorgster: Any particular reason why you think painkiller and lyingbrian are scum? Is it just a hunch? (Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against hunches, I'd just like to know)

@duckhunter: I don't think your reasoning for painkiller being town are sound. I think it is very possible that scum could defend someone so they look better in the eyes of whoever they defended and look better if the person they defended is revealed town.

To those who haven't answered my questions (lyingbrian, cjdrum, duckhunter) I would appreciate it if you did, but of course, you don't have to.

[DeasVail]

I don't have any town reads atm, mostly null.
Scum cookies go to duckhunter.

Srsly? No town read? Can't believe. There are plenty of posts for you to get an opinion.
VOTE: Shinki
Stop lurking, scum.

The following post is assuming that town reads = thinking someone is (or at least more likely to be) town

I think that it's too early to have any real town reads. I think that mafia could easily act a lot like a townie this early in the game, so it would be counter-productive to talk about who we think is town, as this could change a lot later in the game. In my opinion, it is better to suspect everyone and focus on those who I consider most likely to be scum, rather than possibly being tricked into thinking that one of the mafia is town. It surprises me, Fakinha, that you're wanting town reads. Could you be mafia hoping to get people to think that you or your fellow mafia are town? I'm even more surprised that you are voting for Shinki because of this. I don't understand how this makes her any more likely to be scum, especially since not many other players are providing much substance at the moment.

[DeasVail]

I know how Shinki is, lemme vote ): I'm lost here, so I might go random sometimes, I apologise.
UNVOTE:

But srsly... idk what to think... feel frustrated.

You don't need to be so easily influenced. If you are town and had reason to believe that Shinki is likely to be scum, then that reason is valuable. Just because I don't think it is a good reason to vote for someone, it doesn't mean that I'm right. I could be totally wrong. I even could be scum trying to manipulate you.

I must say that I'm confused by your sudden change in vote and opinion though...

[DeasVail]

Just noting that all of the suspicion I received was off of my sheeping and fakinha just sheeped off of her vote after one post that questioned her vote, seems pretty scummy to me

I don't understand how you can think that you're behaviour was not scummy, say that Fakinha's behaviour was similar to your behaviour, and then say that Fakinha seems scummy.

[DeasVail]

I am quite unsure as to why everyone thinks I'm scum, I understand I sheeped a little bit but I dont think that qualifies as scum. As there are 7 town and 2 scum in this game. The townies should sheep.

^It seemed to me here that you were saying something like "I don't think I'm acting scummy"

Just noting that all of the suspicion I received was off of my sheeping and fakinha just sheeped off of her vote after one post that questioned her vote, seems pretty scummy to me

^I questioned you when you said this. Then:

I never said my sheeping didn't look scummy, I agree it did

This contradicts with what you were saying earlier. There just seem to be too many inconsistencies, too much deflection of blame without solid evidence. What do you think of the claims against you? Do you think it's reasonable to highly suspect you of being scum?

I'd vote for you if you didn't already have 3 votes. I'm not sure whether we should make the day last longer though. What I want to know is: What does everyone (particularly those who haven't voted for him) think of duckhunter at this stage? Does anyone think that he is likely to be town? If so, please tell us why. He is my main suspect for mafia right now because I don't understand why he wouldn't be able to answer questions completely and honestly without contradiction if he is town.

I also suspect Fakinha, but duckhunter seems more scummy to me right now.

[DeasVail]

@Duckhunter and DaLetterEl: By taking duckhunter to L-1, a quick lynch would be made more likely. I don't see the need to rush and I'd like to know what everyone thinks of duckhunter first, particularly those of you who haven't voted for him. (I'd also like to know what duckhunter thinks)

[DeasVail]

Welcome Kirby

Thank you for your opinion on duckhunter Fakinha, but you're implying now that you weren't suspicious of shinki being scum, but it seemed you were at the time.

Sorgster: You seem quite disconnected from everyone else to me. You've changed your suspicions and votes quite a few times, but have not provided much reason for any of them. Obviously there are only 2 mafia so most of the players you've suspected have to be town. I think it would be more helpful for everyone if you provided clearer updates of what your suspicions are and what you think of each of the players (particularly those who you previously suspected). Also, I'm not sure that I understand how the post you quoted makes shinki likely to be scum.

[DeasVail]

@lyingbrian I think I've said why I didn't want to vote for duckhunter yet, but it seems that you've missed it. Anyway, I feel that some people aren't giving clear opinions on duckhunter and I'd appreciate knowing what they think before I vote. If I vote, duckhunter is at L-1 and it only takes one more vote to lynch so the day could be over very quickly and I don't think the day needs to be rushed. I think it best to have everyone's opinion first for two reasons (in case they are not clear already):
- so that we're less likely to miss anything that makes duckhunter less likely to be scum
- so that we have more information for the next day based on whether duckhunter is town or scum

So, sorgster, painkiller, shinki: please speak up.

[DeasVail]

I never said my sheeping didn't look scummy, I agree it did

@Yoshi IMHO I think that sheeping with one person to try and make a little bandwagon day 1 is not scummy, because it puts more pressure on one person to make them defensive and see how they react. Now on the other hand if a person was at 3 votes and 2 people quickly voted to get a lynch yes that seems scummy to me.

Duckhunter, can you please decide whether your "sheeping" was scummy or not?

[DeasVail]

@lyingbrian hmm, I didn't consider that people might discuss more if duckhunter is at L-1 and it doesn't look like we're really progressing much right now. I'll trust what you say, because although you might be scum, what you're saying does make sense and if you are scum, I'll just hope that you're being a good IC

Also, here's what I think of duckhunter:
Duckhunter is seeming very likely to be scum to me because I don't understand how a townie could contradict themselves or why they would avoid answering questions so much. Also, duckhunter, if you're town, please say what you think about the accusations against you.

Vote: Duckhunter4242

Also, @lyingbrian: Why would my hesitation be worth remembering? I don't see what's wrong with hesitating to lynch duckhunter when we have so much time and can't be sure that he is scum.

[DeasVail]

LOL, just realised that my post doesn't make sense

[DeasVail]

@DV I just answered LB's questions and for the accusations they are wrong, I'm just a bad townie. Sure I sheeped which apparently is frowned upon on this site. But I have done my fair share of scumhunting since then.

What I meant by avoiding is, many questions you answer long after they were originally asked and after someone specifically asks you to answer the questions. It seems that a lot of the time your answers are unclear and minimal in the information they provide about why you did something, what you think etc.

You say the accusations are wrong, but how do you expect us to believe you? We obviously don't know whether you're townie or scum. What I wanted to know is whether you think it's reasonable for us to think you are likely to be scum. If you are town, please give reasons for the scummy behaviour that has been mentioned.

[DeasVail]

Hm. We have 9 days left and a good lynch candidate. What else is there to discuss about? Let's see...

What is your favorite color?

@everyone: If duck flips scum, who should we look at next? What about if he flips town?

Assuming that duckhunter will be lynched:

What is the point in saying this now instead of the next day? I think it would give mafia more information for the night kill, but wouldn't be much help to us. Please tell me if I am wrong and there is some benefit for the town. Also, I'm really wanting to know what sorgster, shinki and painkiller think before I think about who I'd suspect in each circumstance. Of course, the hammer vote will be a key factor as well.

[DeasVail]

Duck seems a bit too easy to lynch.

What do you mean by this? I just think it'd be good to tell us what you think, as what you've posted doesn't really say much.

[DeasVail]

I'm not sure. Duck just seems newbtown to me more than anything else.

I thought that was quite likely when all that he had done was sheep, as I've seen townies do it before, but his reactions to the questions and suspicion didn't make much sense to me when I considered his posts as if he was town. I still think it's quite possible that duck is town, but to me he seems more likely to be scum than anyone else.

[DeasVail]

I'm going to hammer duckhunter. I hope this is scum

Unvote
Vote duckhunter

I would have liked to know what the replacement thought about duckhunter I guess all we can do now is wait.

[DeasVail]

ok, I don't really understand the sorgster night-kill, since he seemed quite suspicious to me after yesterday and I don't think anyone could have suspected him of being jailkeeper. Kirby and Shinki have shared their thoughts, but does anyone else have any ideas?

Anyway, I'm very unsure about who is scum now that duckhunter and sorgster have been revealed town, but if I were to name two it would be Fakinha and Kirbyoshi.

With Fakinha, yesterday he seemed to not contribute much to discussion, but still urged everyone to discuss. (perhaps scum making the effort to look town without saying much?)
His attack on shinki for not providing town reads and then quick unvote after I questioned it was a bit strange, but I'm not sure if it's scummy.
The main thing for me though was him saying there was a 50/50 chance of duckhunter being scum as an excuse not to vote, while not seeming to make much effort to find better suspects.
So, Fakinha, what are your thoughts on everyone?

With kirbyoshi, he replaced cjdrum, who was one of the people suspecting duckhunter and when kirby came in to the game, he also suspected duckhunter and he just didn't seem to be careful at all about the possiblity of duckhunter being town. He just said that duck was a "good lynch candidate" and questioned the players not voting for him.
I also found it suspicious how he wanted everyone's suspects in the case of duckhunter's role reveal. The main benefit of this seemed to me to be for mafia deciding who to kill at night and I didn't get a response when I commented on it. The Shinki vote seems a bit weak to me as well.
kirbyoshi: What benefit for the town would everyone's naming of suspects have provided and how seriously do you suspect Shinki?

Finally, DLE, is your vote on me based on my hesitation in taking duckhunter to L-1? If there's anything else, please bring it up.

Just thinking about it now, I'm thinking Kirbyoshi seems to me more likely to be scum than anyone else, so:

VOTE KIRBYOSHI

I'd also really like to hear gamer's thoughts.

[DeasVail]

kirbyoshi, please explain your actions and explain how they were not scummy. The fact that you are not answering my questions and dismissing my suspicion of you without explanation is making more suspicious.

And fakinha, what you have just posted is an example of why I suspect you. You post, but you don't usually say anything new or helpful for us.

[DeasVail]

I don't have anything usefull nor helpfull right now ):
I just go posting and posting and things happens. But I'm with Persona 4 on my PS2, so there's no way I can concentrate on anything

What I meant was that if you're town, you are more likely to have thoughts about who might be scum and reasons why.

[DeasVail]

Shinki, what do you think about duck flipping town?

@Deas
I suspect Shinki. Because I played a lot with her and I don't see a town vibe from her game on day 1. However, that can be because she was very absent on this game. In any case, I'll see how the day develops.
Aside Shinki's meta... nothing, really. There are many little things to considerate but no great opinion formed, yet.

In my opinion, even the little things are worth discussing at this stage considering how quiet it is...

[DeasVail]

Shinki, your "reason" for voting me was that sorgster, who is now confirmed town, suspected

you.

Do you seriously not see the backwards logic in that?

Why are you saying that it was because of this?

It seemed fairly obvious to me that Shinki's reason for voting you was your suggestion that she's mafia and killed sorgster in the night.

[DeasVail]

DV: It is simply much more plausible to think that Shinki killed sorgster than that I did. Use your thinking cap for crying out loud.

The sorgster kill was never the main reason that I suspected you, but it doesn't make me all that suspicious of Shinki either. I've asked this before and I'll ask this again: How seriously do you actually suspect Shinki and what are your reasons? Do you have thoughts on anyone else?

Yeah, Kirbyoshi is scum.
Where's the IC? And everyone else?

Shinki, what makes you so sure that Kirbyoshi is scum?

I agree with you regarding how quiet it is. Lyingbrian, gamer, your thoughts would be much appreciated.

[DeasVail]

checking in I forgot about this game I shall now read the 10 pages

Thank you gamer

[DeasVail]

Lyingbrian, gamer, please share your thoughts...

Also, Fakinha why do you think that kirbyoshi is scum? Do you still suspect shinki of being scum?

Kirbyoshi, before the duckhunter lynch why did you ask everyone who they would suspect in the case of duckhunter being town/scum without providing your own thoughts? As I've asked before, What benefit was there other than for mafia collecting information for their night kill?

[DeasVail]

Ok, finished my 1st run on P4 and did a very quick ISO of Shinki, DLE, Deas and Kirbyoshi.

ATM, I got mostly null reads from them, but looking at the vote count, I'd say either Deas and Shinki are scum or DLE and Kirbyoshi.
Just some probably full of flaws logic I used there, but who knows?

More accurate opinions, you will all get tomorrow.

I think the problem with your proposed scum teams is that it's assuming that mafia won't suspect/vote for/attack each other. I know that I'm speculating here, but maybe shinki's attack on kirbyoshi and certainty that he is scum is because they are mafia and Shinki is hoping to gain credibility if kirby is lynched. I also don't see why DLE's comment on Shinki's behaviour change would make them less likely to be a scum team.

Is there a reason that Lyingbrian is the only player with a decent number of posts that you have not done an iso on?

I'm frustrated by how little we've seen of painkiller/gamer. If he is scum, we don't have anything to go on because of his lack of posting...

I'm finding the Fakinha/Shinki interactions a bit strange, especially Shinki's responses, but I don't know what to make of it. Does anyone have any thoughts?

[DeasVail]

Fakinha: I brought LyingBrian up, not because I'm particularly suspicious of him, but because I don't see much reason to believe he is town and he does have a fair number of posts (from what I recall).

Shinki: I don't remember throwing any suspicion at you recently. I said I found your interactions with Fakinha strange, but I didn't know what to make of it. Kirby is still my main suspect, but he hasn't posted recently and I don't have much more to say about him. I've really been waiting for LyingBrian to elaborate on his suspicion of me and for the painkiller replacement to post his/her thoughts.

DLE: I'm sorry if I've come across as fake (although I've just realised that this probably sounds really fake D:). I don't know. I guess I've just been trying to make my thoughts as clear and concise as possible. I don't know what you want to get out of pressuring me, but if you have any questions about my decisions or play in general, please ask.

[DeasVail]

LyingBrian: I'll try to explain my reasons for the actions that you have mentioned.

With my suspicion of Fakinha, I thought it would be best to mention it rather than not. If I was scum, I don't see why I would have needed to mention my (fake) suspicion of him. I could have just brought it up if the duck lynch didn't work out.

With the question I asked duckhunter, it was because he said his behaviour wasn't scummy, then he said it was scummy, then he said it wasn't scummy again. That's why I asked the question.

Now to my hesitation: I didn't see why I needed to vote for duckhunter so quickly and Fakinha/Shinki/Sorgster/Painkiller were all very quiet about the whole duckhunter issue and I wanted their thoughts before a lynch went through- both so that everyone's opinion is considered before deciding on a lynch (which I think is nice because there was no rush as far I was concerned) and so that we get more information on players. You're wrong in thinking that my hesitation was because I wanted permission from anyone that it was ok to vote for duckhunter. At that stage, the IC (you) and both SE's were on the duckhunter wagon. What more permission would I need? I was worried about someone hammering before everyone got to talk about it, which I've seen happen before.

I said lynching because by taking duck to L-1 I thought that duck would be lynched fairly quickly after that.

When I voted duckhunter, I wanted to say exactly what I thought of him, so that everyone else could consider it when making a judgement of him. I also think I need to stress this because it's in response to a recurring theme in your post: I didn't hesitate because I was unsure if I was 'safe' in doing it. I wanted everyone to talk more about duckhunter. I thought it quite likely that he was scum, but I obviously couldn't be sure and I wanted to have as much information for the next day. When you said that it would make discussion more fervent, I trusted you and voted for him.

To anyone who is thinking of hammering me, please allow everyone to say what they think first so that you have as much information as possible for tomorrow and perhaps let me know first so I can post a few final thoughts if I have any.

[DeasVail]

It's not ok with me!

But seriously, I think it's important to hear Velazanth's (and anyone else's) thoughts on me before I die and after that I would like to have my final say before the hammer if you'll allow me to.

Also, Shinki, Why do you think that I'm scum?

[DeasVail]

I'm really not sure about either Shinki or Fakinha. I found Fakinha's reasoning in day 1 for not voting duck to be a bit suspicious and after skimming through their posts I do find it a bit weird how Fakinha has seemed to suspect Shinki for most of the game, but never really pursued it and did not hesitate in jumping on kirby's wagon or mine. However, I think that at least one scum was probably on the duck wagon, but Shinki was quite insistent that both scum were on the wagon. Then again, maybe if shinki and fakinha were a mafia team, they would have felt it was too suspicious to insist that both scum were on the wagon considering they were both off it. I don't really know what to think.

At the moment I can find reasons to suspect everyone:

In my opinion DLE and/or LyingBrian could be scum- They voted early on duckhunter and voted early on me. I also don't really think they have very good reasons for me being scum. In this case I feel that LyingBrian is more suspicious than DLE because I think DLE voting me because of my fake-ness seems more town than LyingBrian focusing solely on my hesitation in voting for duckhunter. It seems to me as if he could be scum using one thing and exacerbating it in an attempt to look convincing and get another mislynch. He tried to include other things, but I didn't find them to be particularly relevant. Of course, this is reliant on me being town, so I don't expect you to agree with me now, but at least consider it the next day if I'm lynched.

I've already said my reasons for suspecting Fakinha in this post and previous ones. Fakinha, if you think I'm scum for different reasons from anyone else, please say why.

With Shinki, I don't really know what to think of her without knowing whether Fakinha/Kirbyoshi are town or scum. I want to know why she thinks I'm scum. The only thing she's mentioned so far is my consideration of the possibilty of scum suspecting each other, which seems really weak to me, so is reason for suspicion.

I think Velazanth and/or Kirbyoshi could be scum hoping to look good if I'm lynched by avoiding voting for me. I also find it interesting how Kirbyoshi and LyingBrian have not seemed to mention each other at all (although I could be mistaken).

So, I'm a bit confused as to who I think is scum at the moment, but I'd say my top suspects at the moment are LyingBrian and Kirbyoshi because of individual scumminess and I think them being a scumteam is quite possible.

[DeasVail]

Fakinha, what made you change your mind about Kirbyoshi?

[DeasVail]

Shinki, can you please say why you think that I'm scum?

[DeasVail]

Sorry, I just realised that sorgster was the SE and DLE isn't. For some reason I assumed DLE was, so I was wrong in saying that both SE's and the IC were on the duck wagon when I voted.

[DeasVail]

Shinki: Why do you want to lynch kirbyoshi instead of me, when you haven't got good reasons for it?

[DeasVail]

I don't want to be lynched! (obviously)

I am, however, interested in the motivation behind Shinki pushing a kirbyoshi lynch instead of mine, when she doesn't have a good reason to.

[DeasVail]

blablabla gut blablabla meta blablabla deal with me

Go for Kirbyoshi.

Give reasons to vote him better than Brian's for vote Deas.

Your response to this, which was basically: "I can't" is what I was referring to.

Kirbyoshi is scummy to me, which is why my vote is on him. The reason I haven't said much about him is because he hasn't said much recently, other than question the reasons for people voting for me. I think it's possible that town could do this. After all, I don't understand the significance of my "scummy" actions either, but I've already mentioned that I find the blatant defending suspicious. Why are you questioning my lack of comments on kirby when all you've been saying basically is "lynch kirbyoshi! He is scum!" which isn't any more helpful as far as I'm concerned. Also, I don't know what your problem is with me questioning you and I find it incredibly interesting that you imply that me asking questions is scummy by saying "I know you're trying to look good and all..." and saying that by asking you questions I'm chinsaw defending him. Using the suspicion on me to deflect attention from you seems suspicious to me.

I also find it interesting how you insist that your reasons for kirbyoshi beign scum are "good enough", when in my opinion it's more likely that scum would be concerned with having "good enough" reasons.

Your response to my thoughts would be appreciated.

By the way, who else am I pushing for?

[DeasVail]

I asked you questions because I wanted to understand your actions, not because I was more supicious of you than anyone else. After post 303 I was beginning to supect you quite a bit, but I wanted to see your response before changing my vote.
Firstly, you've made a lot more fuss about me asking you questions than I would expect from a townie. You seemed to think I was attacking you more than I actually was, which makes me think that you're scum.

And, what I was saying is that you use the suspicion on me to deflect attention from yourself. You have done it again by using my "fake-ness" (which was an accusation from DLE) to dismiss my questions/comments on you and detract from the credibilty of what I'm saying.

Why can't I discuss the case against me with you? since you have expressed suspicion of me being scum. Or are you scum who can't think of a good reason to suspect me so just uses what everyone else says because I'm the popular target?

Your response has only strengthened my suspicion of you, so

Unvote: Kirbyoshi
Vote: Shinki

[DeasVail]

Hahaha. Yup.

I wish I could double vote you now

[DeasVail]

This was what I thought of kirbyoshi after day 1.

With kirbyoshi, he replaced cjdrum, who was one of the people suspecting duckhunter and when kirby came in to the game, he also suspected duckhunter and he just didn't seem to be careful at all about the possiblity of duckhunter being town. He just said that duck was a "good lynch candidate" and questioned the players not voting for him.
I also found it suspicious how he wanted everyone's suspects in the case of duckhunter's role reveal. The main benefit of this seemed to me to be for mafia deciding who to kill at night and I didn't get a response when I commented on it. The Shinki vote seems a bit weak to me as well.
kirbyoshi: What benefit for the town would everyone's naming of suspects have provided and how seriously do you suspect Shinki?

Also, with asking for suspects, he didn't provide any himself.

His response to my thoughts, which was that nothing he did was scummy at all, and him not answering my questions made me more suspicious. Also, there's his defending of me, which I think could be an attempt to look better if I'm lynched or to make me feel better about him since my vote was on him.

Since I think both Shinki and Kirbyoshi are likely to be scum, individually, I do believe there is the possibility of them being a team because I don't see any good reason for it not to be the case. I won't take a good look at the possibility unless one of them turns up scum, but I remember thinking that Shinki's apparent certainty that kirby was scum could have been because they were a scumteam (so she would have been certain) and she also turned my comment about the possibility of scum attacking each other against me.

That said, I'm still unsure about LyingBrian and even you and Fakinha could be possible scum partners of Shinki in my opinion. I don't know if I'd consider kirby the most likely scum partner for Shinki, but I guess I'll take a closer look at the interactions if Shinki is lynched and turns up scum.

The only one I don't see being a scum partner with Shinki is Velazanth, although I don't consider it impossible, just much less likely than the others.

[DeasVail]

uh, kirby, how have I been buddying on you?

[DeasVail]

@Deasvail
i didn't get any response from DeasVail that i wasn't expecting. i know you didn't need permission per se, you just wanted your vote to be favorable to the majority of the town. again, a quick lynch of duckhunter is favorable, as that is a highly scummy move. you responded to my pressure on why you weren't voting for him, not so much "trusting" me, i think.

I don't understand how a quick lynch is favourable except for scum. Please explain this.

I've explained what I was thinking when I hesitated to vote, so there's not much more to say if you're convinced that it was for different reasons and you think I'm scum.

Shinki, I don't see how being inexperienced means that you don't have reasons for thinking that someone is scum. It doesn't matter how awesome or concise the case is. In my opinion, saying everything you think is best (if you're town ), unless you think someone is a power role or something like that. Using your inexperience as something of an excuse seems a bit scummy to me, since I did something similar as scum in my first game that I had to replace out of.

[DeasVail]

Shinki played around 7 mafias or more.
One being mafia godfather, one being SK, 2 being doc and one being gunsmith. The others I don't know what he is since he's still playing or got replaced out and I dunno what he is. (Mostly of these mafias were on a BR forum)

So, um... you're not inexperienced, Shinki.
I'm starting to think that you're not being scum, just the worst and most despondent town play I've ever seen from you.

Shinki is on L-1.
Deas on L-2.

I don't like Vela's last post. I'll ISO him later.
Don't hammer, people.

Fakinha, I started thinking you were likely to be town, but this comment about not thinking shinki is scum seems very strange to me. In day 1 and beginning of day 2, when she didn't seem very scummy to me, you were quite suspicious of her. I thought that was reasonable because you had played with her before and it was mainly a gut feeling. But now, when she seems (to me anyway) to be very likely to be scum, you're saying that you don't think she's scum, which I find very confusing. You've even revealed that Shinki is not as inexperienced as she makes out, and I don't know why a townie would make out they were more inexperienced than they actually were.

Velazanth's theory about you being shinki's scum partner seems more likely to me now, since your most recent post makes me think that your earlier suspicion of shinki was just distancing without actually wanting to encourage others to suspect her too much. I just don't understand why you'd be less suspicious of her now when you were for most of the game.

[DeasVail]

My posts: 304 and 306 pretty much cover why I'm voting for you. The main thing for me is how you use the suspicion on me generated by others to dismiss anything I say and as an excuse to not answer any of my questions. I don't understand why you would do this if you were town and knew you were innocent. And even if I was scum, answering my questions wouldn't be of any harm and would only cause more discussion.

It is because of this, and other reasons, that I think you're scum.

[DeasVail]

Also Shinki, why do you think my wagon is less stupid than yours?

[DeasVail]

I'm really sorry about the triple post, but Fakinha: What makes you think Lyingbrian is town? I'm nowhere near as convinced as you are.

Also, what does voting for Shinki before have to do with anything? Why are you defending your lack of vote for Shinki with the reason that you don't want to end the day when you don't even really suspect her? (She's not in your top 3, so why would you vote for her in any case?)

[DeasVail]

Shinki: When I ask questions it is often not for scumhunting. A lot of the time it is so that I can get someone's thoughts on something or get them to explain something which was not clear when they posted.

Fakinha, you can think someone is confirmed town, but I'd like to know why because LyingBrian was among my top 3 suspects. I don't know if he still is though. Nevertheless, I am not going to let myself think that LB is town, because he could quite possibly be scum in my opinion.

I'm really confused that so many of you think I'm scum and if LyingBrian is scum, then he has obviously successfully manipulated you because neither you nor Shinki can give me anything solid other than "Yeah, I ISO'd you and you're my top suspect" (Fakinha) or "discuss the case with LyingBrian or DLE, not me, but you're scum so nothing you say is worth hearing" (Shinki)

As for my hesitation to vote, big deal! Wow, I'm just soooooo scummy because I said I would have voted for duckhunter if he wasn't at L-2. It's almost as if LB has assumed that I'm scum and is explaining my actions considering that I'm scum. The tiny problem with this is that I'm town, but of course, when I challenge his "reasons" for my actions, it's not anything he didn't expect. Obviously I'm lying because I'm already scum, right?

DLE's mention of my fake-ness seems more valid to me and he hasn't made it out to be any more significant than it should be (in my opinion), but it's been taken way too far by Shinki.

Now that I've seen LyingBrian's post, I'll have to reconsider him because he has questioned others now.

[DeasVail]

LyingBrian: I do scumhunt by asking questions and by considering the posts people make and the possible motivations behind them. My point was that when I ask a question, I'm not necessarily trying to figure out if the one I question is scum. A lot of the time it is because I want people to share their thoughts for discussion or explain something which was not clear in their post.

The nature of your case was generally: DeasVail did this because of (insert scum motivation), and did this because of (insert scum motivation), assuming that I'm scum without considering the actual reasons why I hesitated in voting duckhunter. You had a decent point, but I'm amazed that it's what makes me the most suspicious to you at this stage and that people won't answer my questions because they're also assuming I'm scum. And I realise now that there's nothing I can do to fix this because people hardly change what they think over the course of the game (e.g. fakinha's town reads) It is your inclusion of irrelevant points such as me mentioning my suspicion of Fakinha and wanting duckhunter to clarify what he thought of his sheeping that make me think you may have been more concerned with how convincing your case was (including as many points as possible) than whether I'm actually scum or not, a reason why I suspect you.

[DeasVail]

If Shinki was lynched right now and revealed scum, I would look at:

-you because it seems like you may be diverting attention away from Shinki

-kirbyoshi because I find the certainty with which Shinki was insisting that kirby is scum suspicious

-Fakinha because he has always made it clear how he suspected Shinki, but was never willing to attempt to lynch her.

All in addition to other things I find suspicious about them.

I'd probably decide on who is most likely and find interesting interactions if I had a good re-read, but I don't want to do that yet.

[DeasVail]

Shinki, I don't really remember reacting much to you saying kirby is scum and it's definitely not the main reason why I think you're scum. Why did you mention my name?

[DeasVail]

My problem is with you answering LB's question with the "not like DeasVail reacted at least", accusing me of reacting in some sort of unexpected way. I had no idea what you were talking about, and I wanted to know, so I asked you.

[DeasVail]

LyingBrian: Although my post could have been worded better, I don't think I've been manipulating anything. I'm only saying that you may be diverting attention from Shinki by focusing on other players. By ignoring Shinki and suspecting Kirby you could be scum trying to prevent Shinki's lynch if she is your scum partner by convincing us that she is not the most likely to be scum.

I am by no means certain that you are diverting attention from Shinki and I think my post conveyed this.

[DeasVail]

I agree with Shinki's point about LyingBrian being the IC and being able to manipulate and deceive everyone if he is scum.

Kirby: I believe I asked before, how have I been buddying you? And how am I rising on your scumdar exactly? It seems to me like you could be scum and regretting defending me earlier now that it looks like I might not be lynched today because your increasing suspicion of me sounds really fake.

[DeasVail]

LyingBrian: I agree I could be scum trying to divert attention away from Kirbyoshi, and I said it then because you asked me to provide my thoughts then and not earlier. What I want to know is why can't you accept the fact that from my perspective, you could possibly be scum trying to divert attention from Shinki?

I agreed because everyone was attacking her for it and I thought that if she's town she has a good point. I've already said most of what I think of you and I feel that I have to suspect you of manipulating, because if you are scum then that's exactly what you're doing. I do not "believe" that you are manipulating, but I think it's a possibility that needs to be considered, instead of just mindlessly following what you say because you're the IC. I've already said that it's mostly because of the nature of your case against me that I suspect of you of manipulating and additionally, I find your complaints about me to be not much more than nitpicking.

[DeasVail]

Shinki fail wagon?

You asked for who I'd suspect if Shinki is revealed scum and I gave it to you. I wouldn't suspect you for possibly "diverting attention" without knowing she was scum. By pointing out scummy behaviour in others like kirby, it makes us focus less on Shinki and focus more on whoever you're talking about. This is obviously not a bad thing, but if you were Shinki's scum partner it would be beneficial for you because there would be less chance of her getting lynched. I know I am speculating, but that's basically what you asked me to do.

I suppose I do dislike everything I say being picked on, but as I've said before, from your case on me it seemed like you could have been more concerned with looking convincing than whether I'm scum or not. Also, why aren't you voting me if you really think I'm scum?

It's funny how both 1) and 2) make me look like scum. I'm not trying to deflect suspicion onto you. I suspect you and I think I have reason to look at you if Shinki is scum. It seems this whole time we've been disagreeing over what my intentions are and what I mean in my posts. I have to clarify over and over again why I suspect you and why I would if Shinki is scum and how I don't think I'm manipulating, but you insist that I am, and it's getting really frustrating.

[DeasVail]

Kirby: I usually ask people why they're voting for someone if they haven't made it clear. What is my scumlist and who is on it?
I can only push for one person to be lynched at a time and at this point I think Shinki is most likely to be scum.

[DeasVail]

I asked you questions because I wanted to understand your actions, not because I was more supicious of you than anyone else. After post 303 I was beginning to supect you quite a bit, but I wanted to see your response before changing my vote.
Firstly, you've made a lot more fuss about me asking you questions than I would expect from a townie. You seemed to think I was attacking you more than I actually was, which makes me think that you're scum.

And, what I was saying is that you use the suspicion on me to deflect attention from yourself. You have done it again by using my "fake-ness" (which was an accusation from DLE) to dismiss my questions/comments on you and detract from the credibilty of what I'm saying.

Why can't I discuss the case against me with you? since you have expressed suspicion of me being scum. Or are you scum who can't think of a good reason to suspect me so just uses what everyone else says because I'm the popular target?

Your response has only strengthened my suspicion of you, so

Unvote: Kirbyoshi
Vote: Shinki

DLE, the above were my main reasons for voting Shinki. Mostly, I couldn't see why town would just make a joke out of what I say just because I was suspected of being scum.

DV: The above is your most recent scumlist that I can tell, dependent (obviously) on Shinki flipping scum. Followup for you: Why can't you push for more than one person at a time? Is it because you're being directed to only push for one person at a time?

Well, I only have one vote and only one person can be lynched today, so I'll only push for one person's lynch at a time. I don't know why you feel left out, as I'm not pushing for a Fakinha or LyingBrian lynch either. Is it because you're mafia and they're not?

[DeasVail]

I disagree that the Shinki/Fakinha day 1 interactions necessarily indicate a scumteam. I think it's possible that one of them is scum and hoping that if they are lynched, we'll immediately go to the other for a mislynch.

LyingBrian asked something similar, but what makes you so sure that Shinki is scum?

[DeasVail]

Vela, why are you assuming that kirbyoshi is town? It almost seems as if you know that he is...

If he is, then I agree that Fakinha and Shinki look like a possible scumteam, but if he's scum then you're completely wrong.

Kirbyoshi, I want to know why you think shinki is scum at this point in the game. Don't refer to previous threads. Please say everything you think in one post.

I think Shinki is more likely to be scum because I can't see any town motivation behind some of her posts and actions, so I'll leave my vote on her. I guess it's up to DLE now.

[DeasVail]

Fakinha, I find your choice of post links confusing, as in my opinion, the things mentioned aren't really things that would make me suspect kirbyoshi, while there are things about kirbyoshi that I find suspicious.

Why do you use Shinki's posts? Why not consider why I find kirbyoshi suspicious?

[DeasVail]

My suspicion of kirby is strong enough for me to vote for him, but I think you're more likely to be scum.

I didn't think the examples Fakinha provided were too convincing and I think the reasons why I find him suspicious make sense (at least to me anyway). I was wondering why Fakinha chose to use your posts as opposed to anyone else's and ones which aren't too convincing at that.

I'll repost my thoughts on both players:

Shinki: I didn't find her particularly suspicious until she started using the suspicion on me to avoid answering my questions and dismiss anything I had to say, instead just reinforcing that I was scum. I can not understand why a townie would do this. I think it likely that she's scum and was trying to use the suspicion on me to avoid attention. I can't be sure why she did it, but as I said, I don't see why a townie would.
There are also smaller things, which I've thought about:
-The sorgster kill could have possibly been for the reason kirby came up with.
-Shinki seeming to make out that I was attacking her at times that I wasn't. I think scum would be more paranoid regarding questions asked to them, thinking they're being attacked when they're not etc.
-Shinki has not changed her views throughout day 2, even though she used her "newbness" as a reason not to have a proper case on anyone', which I thought would mean that she wouldn't be confident with her scumhunting abilities. Obviously there is the possibility of town doing this, but this seems to me like Shinki could be trying to stick to a night-plan, especially considering that DLE said he'd look at Kirby and I if duckhunter was revealed town.
-Saying she wouldn't discuss the case against me with me even though she suspected me.
-Making out she was more noob than Fakinha revealed.

Kirbyoshi:
-The person he replaced voted duckhunter, and he kept his vote on with little consideration. He didn't seem to consider the possibility of duck being town and strongly encouraged the lynch to go through, without really discussing why he found duck suspicious.
-Wanting everyone's suspicions before the lynch in the case of each possible duckhunter role, without providing his own. Seemed like he could be scum wanting to work out the best way to manipulate us with a night kill.
-The lack of content he provided throughout day 2, apart from saying that Shinki is scum and defense/suspicion of me- which I'll get to.
-Questioning the logic of the attacks against me, when it looked like I was going to be lynched and he was my main suspect (possibly scum trying to look good in the case of my lynch), but then, once my wagon had lost a bit of steam and I was on the Shinki wagon, there was the fake-sounding suspicion of me based on me buddying him (which I think could be because he's scum and was trying to keep the option of mislynching me open)

If you want me to provide an example of something I've posted, please ask.

[DeasVail]

DV, provide an example of a time when scum asked about suspicions before a lynch went through, to decide who to NK. I want to know where you've seen that before.

I am new to mafia and people's play-styles are often different. I don't see why I should have something from my experience to back up my thoughts. I've already explained that it would allow the mafia to information for night kills, which is why I think the mafia may have been interested in getting that information.

[DeasVail]

The thing is, I still don't understand how I was buddying him at all and I have trouble believing his reasons for suspecting me. Also, I don't think Kirby has had his vote on me. I do understand there are possible "town reasons" for his actions, which is why I think that Shinki is the best lynch option. However, I do think there is good reason to suspect kirbyoshi too, so I thought I'd provide what I consider scummy about both for DLE to consider.

Fakinha, you seem fairly comfortable with DLE making the final decision (which I'm assuming will happen) considering that he's one of your top suspects.

[DeasVail]

I'd prefer DLE make the decision, since he's the one I think most likely to be town. I think it's 17.5 hours before deadline, so he may still have time. I think it'd be best not to self-hammer because I will very likely be around before deadline to hammer if no one else has. So, out of LyingBrian, Fakinha and I, it is extremely unlikely that it will end in a no lynch.

[DeasVail]

So much happened while I was away D:

I don't think that DLE is likely to be scum. Shinki, Kirbyoshi, what is it about him that you think makes him scummy? I don't really agree with his absence being a reasons because there's still over 2 hours before deadline as I'm posting this.

@Lying, I think she is scum and is trying to trick us into feeling guilty for lynching her. Also, as if scum will kill kirby if it's not him...

[DeasVail]

DeasVail... ehhh? What's that supposed to mean?

[DeasVail]

You'd self-hammer to perhaps make DLE out to be suspicious and plant the seed for a later mislynch perhaps? (assuming he's not your partner)
Or self-hammer because you're worried your scum partner might hammer you and look suspicious in doing so?

The real question is: Why would you self-hammer as town? Makes no sense...

[DeasVail]

ok, well at night I read through (although at times skimmed through) the ISO of each player and typed up what I thought, mainly things I find possibly scummy about each player. I'll post it here (excluding my thoughts on Fakinha):

DaLetterEl

-Most of Day 1 seems fairly null to me, didn’t quite manage a thorough re-read of all his long posts and I found it interesting that his original RV on duck was the one that counted at the end (although he may have explained the continued vote in one of his posts which I skimmed)

-When he unvotes me in day 2, one of the reasons he uses was he thought I was being inconsistent when I wasn’t. Although this is quite possible for town, it’s possible he may have wanted to unvote me because he felt insecure being the only one on my wagon and obviously wasn’t going to get a lynch on me, which could possibly indicate scum.

-Never really provides a judgement on any player until after Shinki’s self-hammer. Even when he analyses players individually, each ends with no particular, judgement. Mostly, that there are things he doesn’t like, but they could be town.

-Then there’s his absence until after the hammer. Possible scum motivation, but most likely RL stopping him from hammering in my opinion.

Overall, there are things that could possibly considered to be scum motivated, but I don’t really see him being scum.

[DeasVail]

Kirbyoshi

Thoughts haven’t changed much from what I posted on day 2, (shown below) but I guess Shinki being town adds to how scummy he is, although I was on the wagon too, so I don’t really know.
Regardless, even though I find things that are scummy in both Kirby and Fakinha, I think a Kirby lynch would be best because Fakinha generally seems more genuine than Kirby, although I’m actually thinking them being a scum team is a possibility.

-The person he replaced voted duckhunter, and he kept his vote on with little consideration. He didn't seem to consider the possibility of duck being town and strongly encouraged the lynch to go through, without really discussing why he found duck suspicious.
-Wanting everyone's suspicions before the lynch in the case of each possible duckhunter role, without providing his own. Seemed like he could be scum wanting to work out the best way to manipulate us with a night kill.
-The lack of content he provided throughout day 2, apart from saying that Shinki is scum and defense/suspicion of me- which I'll get to.
-Questioning the logic of the attacks against me, when it looked like I was going to be lynched and he was my main suspect (possibly scum trying to look good in the case of my lynch), but then, once my wagon had lost a bit of steam and I was on the Shinki wagon, there was the fake-sounding suspicion of me based on me buddying him (which I think could be because he's scum and was trying to keep the option of mislynching me open)

[DeasVail]

LyingBrian

-Discrediting DLE’s colour question thing seems possibly scummy to me, could indicate more concern for talking rather than scum-hunting.

-Confidence that duckhunter is scum seems to not match up with day 2 where he decides to say he wasn’t shocked about duck flipping town.

-I’ve already said how I felt about his case against me- in summary, felt he could have been more concerned in making it convincing than determining whether I’m scum or not.

-His attack of certain things I said in day 2 made me more suspicious of him (but I don't think this is a good reason to suspect him now)

-Also, seemingly certain that Shinki is town

I really try to be careful with LB because I know that if he’s scum he would probably be able to convince everyone he’s town just as he has done, but I don’t see much reason to think he's scum right now.

[DeasVail]

Velazanth

-First thing I notice is all the town reads- Kirby, Me, DLE. Don’t know what to make of them really, but I think this is scummy because I know that I wouldn’t be at all comfortable believing that 3/6 players are town.

-Seems really set on Shinki/Fakinha scum team- again doesn’t mean much in my opinion, but perhaps makes the town reads point less scummy?

-I’m finding Vela’s defence of Kirby really strange, describing certain actions of Kirby and I as “natural”, also possibly scum trying to look good if Kirby is lynched and town or trying to defend a scumbuddy. I’ll be interested to know what he thinks after the Shinki townflip.

I actually think I could see Vela in a scum team with either Kirby or Fakinha, especially since his attack on Fakinha was reliant on Shinki being scum. Quite convenient, don’t you think?

[DeasVail]

Ugh, disregard the mentions of Fakinha. I considered Fakinha/Vela/Kirby my top 3 suspects, but obviously not now.

Yeah, so I'm thinking a kirby lynch, but I'm obviously not going to vote until I know all your thoughts. In particular, I want to know who kirby and vela suspect and what they think.

[DeasVail]

hmm, you have a point LyingBrian. I actually was thinking he investigated Shinki, because his actions regarding her didn't make much sense to me at all (part of the reason why I suspected him). He insisted that he was still suspecting her, but didn't make any effort to get her lynched and then seemed to think she was town for no reason. Also, I didn't think that Fakinha voted for Shinki day 2. I may be wrong though. But yeah, I'm thinking it's quite possible he investigated you. It's probably what I'd have done as cop.

[DeasVail]

Fakinha was a pretty obvious cop and was honestly the main reason i didn't see shinki as scum, as he was telegraphing extremely hard that lyingbrian was clean. Didn't want to say it because I was hoping mafia would be dumb and kill someone who wasn't fakinha.

FOS DeasVail for generally being a solid player and somehow NOT catching onto that, and keeping his vote on Shinki despite that formulation.

Stronger FOS on Kirbyoshi for basically being 100% scum fmpov. His reaction to the Shinki lynch was absolutely horrendous, and his play on d2 as people including myself have already outlined before reeked of scumminess. Heck, his d1 was pretty bad too from the way he was asking "what next?" after duckhunter was lynched.

Yeah, I didn't realise Fakinha was cop.

So you're saying it was obvious to you Day 2 that Fakinha investigated LyingBrian and got townie? Why then did you say you considered LyingBrian the most likely scum partner for Shinki? And what did Shinki have to do with LyingBrian turning up innocent?

[DeasVail]

Vela, why are you voting? Unvote! :O

[DeasVail]

I found DLE's post in particular strange, but I'm not sure about LyingBrian. Kirby still seems the most likely to be scum to me, but I'm not really sure now since I've been wrong with duck and shinki. Then again, with 2 of you being scum and 2 of you being townies, I think it's more important than ever that I go with what I think and I'm thinking kirby is scum.

[DeasVail]

I'm still not sure how you decided to FoS me based on that though...

[DeasVail]

Vela, What I think of Kirby is pretty much summarised in my Kirbyoshi post. I don't really know how to make a proper case though.

[DeasVail]

DarthYoshi, could we have some cake while we wait for Kirby to say something?

[DeasVail]

DarthYoshi, could we have some cake while we wait for Kirby to say something?

No, but I can prod him for you. Prodding kirbyoshi.

But I read somewhere that you bake cakes on demand!

I want cake!

[DeasVail]

er, I don't really know what to say (other than ask for cake).

It seems that DV, LB, DLE want a kirby lynch, Vela wants a LyingBrian lynch and Kirby is gone.

I don't really see how anything's going to change if he's replaced, but I think I'd prefer to at least wait for him/his replacement to appear until it gets close to deadline.

[DeasVail]

Well what I said was near the end of day 2, so why I found you scummy was pretty much the same as then.

[DeasVail]

Also, what are your thoughts on the suspicion on you and Vela's suspicion of LyingBrian?

er ok

Vote: LyingBrian

[DeasVail]

No confirmation bias? He just can't be town!

[DeasVail]

Yeah Vela, you need to be much more careful with your town reads and voting at lylo so early is not good.

[DeasVail]

meh, good point. I just thought you were being too mean.

[DeasVail]

Thanks LyingBrian, but there was too much suspicion on me for my liking and I wasn't really helpful to the scumteam apart from staying alive.

You played really well, picking up on things I did which I didn't even think were scummy :O

[DeasVail]

What I meant was that you didn't convince yourself I was scum and tunnel me even though I was the first one you really suspected.

[DeasVail]

Which is what a lot of townies do and would've been better for town this game

[DeasVail]

Hardly flawless, but Kirby did really well with choosing the night kills

[DeasVail]

Thanks for modding DY I thought you did a great job. I agree that everything seemed to work out a bit too well for us haha.

I am happy for our QT to be released for anyone who might be interested as long as it is ok with kirby.

[DeasVail]

That's a shame DLE I hope you enjoy your next game more.

[DeasVail]

Thanks Sorgster

I was hoping to distance myself from Kirby except I kind of failed at it.