Newbie 1441 (Game Over)

[Drake Crusader]

Vote: Nominull

Just slipping your vote in? Hmm... You seem like someone who knows whats going down.

[Drake Crusader]

A question to anyone who can answer: How do you know that we are out of RVS ? Was something done that I missed that symbols that RVS is over? Or do you just figure now that we are 2 pages into the game that it is time to end it ?

The question might be more explicitly asked, "why would a scum player be more likely to do what I did than a town player would be"?

I would have to say to avoid stating a reason.
1. If your a town and you just throw it all out wouldn't other people judge you as town?
2. If you play as scum wouldn't you just want to avoid confronting a person(or people for that matter) and just quietly sit back and let them all get killed off?
These is my personal opinions on this matter until i know more about how to read people.
If playing as town I feel you would be more open and up to discussion. Since you know that you are town and In turn would have to hope that other town people come out and help you find out who isn't town.

@Nominull

With you playing defensive and kindly shifty... Why shouldn't I see you as a "against the town" kinda guy?

My only other questionable non town read would have to be someone like Frettory who hasn't even posted yet on a person who was already replaced. It is like a dropped potato... I feel this could be a possible mafia role that no one wants...

Am i even viewing this in the right perspective?

[Drake Crusader]

A question to anyone who can answer: How do you know that we are out of RVS ? Was something done that I missed that symbols that RVS is over? Or do you just figure now that we are 2 pages into the game that it is time to end it ?

What qualifies as RVS is pretty subjective but for the most part you can tell it's over once a) someone drops a serious vote that isn't entirely random or b) people get an early wagon going (intentionally piling votes on one person as a means of performing some early game wagon analysis).

How long RVS lasts usually depends on the group of players. Some games can enter/exit RVS in a matter of minutes while others can drag for a while.

I personally assumed RVS was over once Null dropped his vote on me since it seemed as if he legitimately wanted to get an early wagon going against me.

Alright! So everyone kinda gets a for when we are out of RVS. In this game I would say we are out of RVS now. Thanks for clearing it up!!
In a few games I looked over people claimed roles during the first day. Would this be a sign of RVS ending just due to the fact they claimed a role?
Just trying to get a feel on how to distinguish RVS to a non-RVS vote.

I had many reasons for my vote on TRG. I like to place my vote on the person I find most suspicious, and that was TRG. (Ellipses are a scum tell...) Also, I thought that placing a third vote might help us get out of RVS which is terrible and which I hate. Also I wanted to see how everyone would react if I put a third vote on with zero reasoning. (Not a reaction test on TRG specifically, more a general stirring of the pot.) And also I wanted to make a pedagogical point about the difference between weird and scum, which I've already explained.

I kinda see what you wanted to achieve! I want to believe that this reaction test ties into your post that I last quoted. I was reading your other games where you seem to play this way all the time. I kinda feel that after that post you are not really a mafia member. Thank's for leading me on!

UNVOTE

I feel as my vote on Nominull no longer belongs. Understanding that a unvote is not necessary is it a good practice to unvote after RVS or just leave it on the person until you find someone else ?

So you wanted to devolve yourself of responsibility?

Yes. I wanted to devolve myself of responsibility in the same way you devolved responsibility in vote #6 by claiming Ravenclaw is the best. It was all in fun during the RVS stage.

By shedding all responsibility aren't you just trying to throw this all under the rug ? Now that RVS is over...(I believe it is at least) What do you bring to the table ? It appears nothing which could suggest that you have something to hide from us!

I would like to also hear from Frettory... OR his replacement. Kinda feel like I am on to something with the "role-no-one-wants"!

[Drake Crusader]

I don't really know how to feel about the jump in and vote on second ! I know I am not a fan of him however, it makes me feel every more uneasy of Montosh's slot! With that being said I shall go with my first pick and give Second a chance to post before I vote him. I have looked over enough games to know that L-1 is a bad spot to be in. So until comes on I shall

FOS:SecondEngineer

[Drake Crusader]

I still feel like something is up with SecondEngineer I don't like how he claimed to be nervous to divert attention! However, we have the role of Montosh who wants to go after Nominull. I still feel Nom is town just because I kinda feel like he is trying to open up different roads for thought.
VOTE: SecondEngineer
I need to see inside your mind and figure out why you are appearing to sheep up and lead everyone else off of your back !

[Drake Crusader]

I get off for a night and this thread blows up! I still don't like second in the beginning however, I do believe his reason. Now I have to go over and look things over.
UNVOTE:
Since Second has quelled anything I had against him that leaves good ole Montosh. Didn't like you before. Still don't like you now! With your recent posts you could just be some scum who is trying to lynch off and confuse us with your short answers.
FOS:Montosh
I believe other than him my only other suspicion would be back at JacobSavage. He hasn't really thrown much in and it bothers me to think that he could be a potential buddy for Montosh.
I feel that I may have to look over some things. I shall report in when I find something new and exciting!

[Drake Crusader]

I get off for a night and this thread blows up! I still don't like second in the beginning however, I do believe his reason. Now I have to go over and look things over.
UNVOTE:
Since Second has quelled anything I had against him that leaves good ole Montosh. Didn't like you before. Still don't like you now! With your recent posts you could just be some scum who is trying to lynch off and confuse us with your short answers.
FOS:Montosh
I believe other than him my only other suspicion would be back at JacobSavage. He hasn't really thrown much in and it bothers me to think that he could be a potential buddy for Montosh.
I feel that I may have to look over some things. I shall report in when I find something new and exciting!

^Found his scumbud

LOL ! Well , if you look he is attacking not science for attacking him. Being very edgy and defensive. Tunnel Vision a tad. What isn't scummy about that? I didn't like his predecessor and he doesn't seem any better now. JacobSavage is just strange, he is a null to scum read to me just because he doesn't seem to be helping. I can see them as a team.

Why can't you ?

To be honest guys, I've screwed up bad. I was trying to seem like I knew what I was doing, when I didn't. I then backed off when I realized that trying to pretend I knew what I was doing was voting to lynch a townie. Jacob's and Tigris' posts then made me feel like I didn't know what I was doing(which I didn't, and still don't really). Then notscience pointed out that my vote made it a L-1, and I didn't want any scum to take advantage of my inexperience, so I unvoted for the second time.
I realize, looking back, that this looks really, really suspicious. Hell, i'd probably lynch myself at this point. But at least lynching will move this game along and allow you guys to scumhunt. I do hope to not be lynched of course, but I think I see myself headed for the executioner today...
On a side note, mostly since he replaced ravenpaw:

FOS: notscience

My reasons have been detailed in a previous post(#74)

I just don't like this one at all ! He comes out again with a excuse to what he has done. Then to top it off he even notions the idea of lynching himself. From some games I read most of them were scum. Since I don't have any exp. to claim otherwise , I view that move as a scumcake! It's almost like he wants you to believe he is town. Just don't like it at all ! !
VOTE: Montosh
Just stop with the nonsense. I don't get a town vibe from you plus the fact that your trying to take attention off yourself and transfer to NotScience. How does just saying anything like that help the town ?

Well maybe after i'm lynched and it's revealed i'm town then people will at least consider my vote.
Probably not though, they'll just say I was a stupid townie(but it's just inexperience, not stupidity).

This also goes with why I decided to land my vote on you. This just doesn't seem right! By asking to voted on to turn "town" is not very town helpful.

He'll remain my #1 scum read unless if something scummier comes up.

You don't say

Oh-so-worried about how you look, aren't you?
That "trapped" feeling is a scum feeling. It's when they're caught.

You sure like to wave the sarcastic sword around don't cha? How is this helping your case? What positive help do you give with that? You been sure to fire off to the cocky lords however, what good have you provided to the game?

JS lurks a fair amount, this is the best I've seen him.
Put your vote on actual scum please, one of Drake or Montash would be nice.
Why only 1 townread?

So you are saying I am scum from one post ? Please explain more. I need to go get my notepad to jot down all the knowledge you have to say! Who are your townreads?

I'm in no way saying to lynch him before you all realize he's scum.
But he needs to die.

What good does this do also? Quick to fire off. Almost as bad as Montosh wanting to lynch himself off the game so people will realize his vote meant something more than a vote.

JS lurks a fair amount, this is the best I've seen him.
Put your vote on

actual scum

please, one of

Drake or Montash

would be nice.
Why only 1 townread?

Could you please explain your reasoning to me?

You are scum, Drake is your buddy.
What isn't to understand? You are scum given your L-1 vote and your reaction after being incredibly off, too quick to apologize.
Drake's stance re:you screams newbscum not knowing what to do with a caught scumbud

I do need more explaining here. As with the quote above. Please enlighten me!

I get off for a night and this thread blows up! I still don't like second in the beginning however, I do believe his reason. Now I have to go over and look things over.
UNVOTE:
Since Second has quelled anything I had against him that leaves good ole Montosh. Didn't like you before. Still don't like you now! With your recent posts you could just be some scum who is trying to lynch off and confuse us with your short answers.
FOS:Montosh
I believe other than him my only other suspicion would be back at JacobSavage. He hasn't really thrown much in and it bothers me to think that he could be a potential buddy for Montosh.
I feel that I may have to look over some things. I shall report in when I find something new and exciting!

^Found his scumbud

This is the post you're having an issue with, correct? What was wrong with it exactly? Help me understand what is scummy about this post.

What's scummy about drake's post? He quotes it and then says, here's the scum. It's ridiculous, he's throwing around random accusations without even giving a reason. That's what's scummy about his post.

Where do you see somthing wrong with that post? Do I see anything to compare from you. I state the reasons right underneath !

Since Second has quelled anything I had against him that leaves good ole Montosh. Didn't like you before. Still don't like you now! With your recent posts you could just be some scum who is trying to lynch off and confuse us with your short answers.
FOS:Montosh
I believe other than him my only other suspicion would be back at JacobSavage. He hasn't really thrown much in and it bothers me to think that he could be a potential buddy for Montosh.

I didn't like how the person before you played. You haven't done much better. Your last few posts when I made this post didn't read town to me. You went L-1 fired off a quick sorry and then wanted to vote yourself off.

@MonTosh What more of a reason do I need for FOS you ?

You aren't arguing with me, you're taking anything I say, focusing on little key words then saying NO ITS NOT TRUE THAT HAS NO MERIT YOU ARE MAKING YOURSELF OBVSCUM
While you accuse me of having nothing in the semblence of the case, you are sitting there doing nothing except trying to discredit me.
You aren't trying to find peoples alignments. Your initial vote on me wasn't because you thought me scum, it was due to something my predecessor did that you voted the other person before and got called out for. You're trying to throw shit and see what sticks.

If your predecessor was scum that makes you scum, notsci. Makes perfect sense.

Well provide some content so I can find somthing to stick to you. I quoted this because it supports why I don't like you. Knowing this it seems easy to "buddy" me up in your scum list. The person before you wasn't 100% town. So when you entered this game you were already >100% town.

Get back to me please.

[Drake Crusader]

AtE=appeal to emotion

Aka you whining about oh damn I'mgoing to be lynched

Could you or anyone for that matter explain this "AtE" more ? I am lost whenever the term gets mentioned! I did read the wiki page at
"http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... to_emotion"
however, it didn't provide much help.

From a quick look, a few things stand out a little.

Montosh is defensive about drake.

Any time that Montosh is not reactive, the response is dismissed. Get the overall feeling that a few people see a montosh lynch as inevitable. It seems likely at this point, but at the same time want everyone to be able to speak their thoughts as well.

In general terms, view post 168 as more town than mafia, as montosh shifts from defensive to more irritated. Seems a more natural response than the posts montosh made before that.

Drake's last post confuses me to be honest, I think that he starts out voicing suspicion and then voting montosh and then in the second half voices suspicion of not science. Somewhat difficult for me to understand from a cursory look based on style.

The rest of the back and forth between not science and montosh feels like two people focusing almost exclusively on each other. Neither is going to convince the other.

Yes, that is what I wanted to do. I was unsure about breaking them into two smaller posts. One for each other. Next time I shall split them into seperate posts , Or I shall bold the players name.. So you can tell who I am talking about at what time.

[Drake Crusader]

I'll respond when you stop being vague and unclear.

Thanks.

I feel that your being rather unclear. You go from giving up -> wanted to be lynched -> wanting to scumhunt -> back to being a shady guy again.
Well NS kinda just charted the stars on Montosh. I have to agree with a few of them. However, his opinion support that Montosh is scum. I still feel my vote is good.

Now on the JacobSavage
One thing I noticed was Jacob's lack of insight. He has only placed one vote in the beginning and has never touched upon it again. Neither has he actually thrown much out in the works except for his post about Montosh being scummy and SecondEngineer being nervous. I doubt he is scum however, he doesnt really seem into looking for them. Other than posting the odd remark now and then.

This would be my list at the moment:
Town (< 85% sure) -
TRG
Tigris
Nominull

Null Town ( 50 % - 84 %) -
SecondEngineer
Spaces

Null Scum (25% - 49%) -
JacobSavage
NotScience

Scum (0%-25%)
Montosh


Still need some help with AtE is anyone is kind enough to shed some light.

[Drake Crusader]

So. Jacob ! Why are you voting TRG?
TRG ! Why are you voting Jacob?

I can't seem to draw anything real between your votes. I was curious to know if you got somthing I missed!

[Drake Crusader]

So JacobSavage. What makes you town ? curious to know who you even see as a suspect in this whole realm of things.

[Drake Crusader]

What makes you town ?

What is this

Wanted to know: How does he want me to believe that he is town.
I kinda want to axe JacobSavage this day. The reason would be :
I feel that Montosh is scum however, if we lynch JacobSavage then see who the mafia nightkills that would give us an indication of who is the goon's!
After looking at JS's play style and how he as so far played this game. I don't have a good feeling about him.
OR
I can be happy and keep my vote on Montosh and know that he is scum. However, if Jacob is mafia in which makes Montosh actually town. Then that would give him a upper hand.
I am trying to figure out:
"Is it more important to lynch someone who plays scummy or someone who doesn't even participate in playing." ? I mean Jacob isn't much help and if we lynch Montosh regardless of his alignment would't Jacob still be lurking and barely playing on day 2 ?

[Drake Crusader]

What did I say spaces?

Now, let's look at BOTH of what they say about JS.

Lets look at the order of Montosh's input on JS- Unhelpful to town, then scummy. Weird, a scumread of mine would be pushed because they're SCUMMY first. Not uselessness.

Now, Drake treats Montosh like he knows he's going to flip scum. As spaces noted, that statement relies heavily on the premise that JS is town, as without the IC (a common scum-target along with SEs) on N1, that will clue people into the scumteam. Now, this is apparently more important than the person he's pretty sure is scum? So, he wants the person he's pretty sure to be scum alive tomorrow? No. That's not how it works. This is an attempt to look like a bus while secretly fighting his buddy's lynch.

I kinda want to axe JacobSavage this day. The reason would be :
I feel that Montosh is scum however, if we lynch JacobSavage then see who the mafia nightkills that would give us an indication of who is the goon's!

So you think that Jacob is mafia? Because there's only two mafia, and if Montosh is also mafia, we'd be done with the game and we wouldn't have to use night kills to know anything.
Or do you think Jacob is town? And yet you still want to lynch him instead of your actual scum read? THIS speaks much more to you being Montosh's scumbud.

My vote is still on Montosh because I feel he is scum. I am asking if their is any value of not lynching him and going for JacobSavage.
The reason I get confused is because:
JS could be a partner for Montosh.
JS is the experienced player Montosh is not. So JS lurks and let Montosh take the beating. That could be plausible.
If I was protecting Montosh I wouldn't be pushing for his lynch.

However, JS could just be a not very helpful town person. If we lynch him off then we know that we have Montosh as the scum and whoever his partner may be.
Js lynch ends D1
Montosh NK one of us to make it D2.
Then we vote Montosh off and end D2 in a matter of minutes.
We would of elimated a crappy player and a mafia goon. So then we are down to more serious things.
With only 1 Mafia member left that would mean the town has the upper hand.


IF JS flips scum then town wins and we go back to queue. Since lynching Montosh would equate both being killed.

[Drake Crusader]

Well it seems you've all decided i'm scum. I've presented my case. Lynch me first so you can get somewhere when you realize i'm town.

@notscience I didn't vote Jacob because others did. I voted Jacob because I found it suspicious. I was pointing out that of all the people that voted for him, i'm the only one you're going after.
Also, I find that Tigris and Nominull are the most reasonable here right now. I never said anything against you there or implied it.

Ok, can you lynch me already please?

How is this helping us then ?
If you are town then why aren't you help anyone find scum. Show me something to work with.
You have jumped from ship to ship and only fought with NotScience.
If you think he is scum give me a reason. Because to this point I feel NotScience is a cocky town who likes to "throw shit and see if it sticks"
Your about as useful as JS. At least your active.

[Drake Crusader]

To be honest getting someone's alignment completely off isn't that weird, and doesn't mean that you are scum.

I agree that getting alignment wrong isn't grounds to be scum. It's more how over the top NS is being. When someone is doing something SO MUCH that the only thing one could say is, "Well there's no way that he could be mafia with that attitude," then it very well could be a mafia strategy to play it up. It's the entire concept behind bussing. But I would like to see what NS does this phase before analyzing further.

Concerning Drake, his posts at the end of last phase were suspicious, but also confusing. I still want to hear what was up with the Montosh/Jacob jumble, because I've read his posts several times over, and I still can't figure out what he was saying. From the way he phrased it, it sounded like he knew Montosh was mafia, and was trying to get Jacob killed instead? But since Montosh turned out to be town, he wasn't defending Montosh.

For now NS and Drake are at the top of my list, and I'd really like to hear more from the both of them about their actions at the end of D1.

I clearly thought that JS and MON were a scum pair. I was under the impression that the way Montosh played and the careful convincing from NotScience that he was defiantly mafia. Having him flip town really does mess my whole thought process up. The was jacob was playing I still believe he could be scum. However , the chances of that are slim since the whole idea relied heavily on Montosh being a scum flip.
I still find it odd that JS did indeed vote on me while it was known that only me and montosh were posting about him. SecondEngineer is also a little shady however, I need to remake my list and read this stuff over. Lynching a town on my first game when I was dead set on his demise is not what I wanted to achieve.

[Drake Crusader]

You "clearly thought"?

From looking back. I believed he was scum from his defensive actions and just asking to be lynched for a period of time. That and with the blinders engaged on NotScience I felt that he was scum. NotScience kept him edgy and I became convinced he was scum. Then the talk of lynching himself which I gathered was not a town thing to do. However, I see that I must of overlooked something.

SecondEngineer is also a little shady

Why do you think he's shady?

My catch-up post will come sometime in the afternoon or tonight.

He seems to be hiding. He came out of his shell when the Montosh NS scene was in full swing for about 2 posts. Then he just dropped back off the radar. I guess shady isn't the best word. It would be seems odd instead.

[Drake Crusader]

Because I can't read him for shit so I invert the read

I have to agree on spaces. What does this mean ?
So for example if you can't read me and you think I am town then I am not town because you inverted your original thought on me ?

I agree with nom.
VOTE: notscience
I am clearly no help, lets lynch me.

That was the idea. I'd rather get lynched now rather than be quickhammered in lylo thanks to paranoia.

Optimal lylo conditions, after all.

So your going to vote yourself and try to get yourself lynched like Montosh ?
What good are you even trying to achieve ?

[Drake Crusader]

The newbtown easy lynchbait vibe.

That gets completely demotivated once he gets deathtunneled without understanding why. Yeah, I know the type of player you're talking about. Also, I was heavily scum-reading Raven for that push.


@Drake: What do you think about Tigris and Spaces? I don't see a whole lot of thoughts about them in your iso.

I felt like I would include what I have about them with the rest of the list. So you can get an idea of where I am coming from. I am trying to be less confusing.

My list as of now :

Town (< 85% sure) -

Spaces

- I kinda view him as a null to town player. He asks questions seems to kinda just float around and idk. He hasn't done really anything that would seem to me like a scum move. He does seem to go from wagon to wagon. But , I would imagine that to be done as a pressure move ? He would appear to be Town if I had to put him in a group. I don't know how I feel about his vote on NotScience. But, NS did just vote himself so I guess anything goes there.

Tigris-

A tough cookie. Appears to be town also. I can't read either. Really just sifts through the info and gives pointers. It gives me something to compare to. Other than that I really can't find something to make her scum. Tigris likes to push for more activity every now and then so I would find that to be a town move. Seems to be open which I gather is another town move. I would have to put Tigris in the town category also.

Null Town (50% - 85%) -

Nominull

- He just pops in and out from time to time and doesn't really help much. However, he does give solid advice and seems to be someone who is Town in the end.

Brian Skies

- Still forming an opinion of you. Since your predecessor was null Town in my list , you get the same read until I can prove otherwise.

Null Scum (25% - 49%) -

JacobSavage

- Hasn't helped , lurked around , defensive , just doesn't seem like the person who would want to help win the game with you. Almost like he doesn't really want to play his role.

NotScience

- I don't even know. He is a ball of question marks wrapped into a cocky , very misleading player. He most recent style matchs Montosh. Maybe he believes that by replicating it he can be avoided since Montosh did it and he turned town. Time will tell.

SecondEngineer

- Just gives me an uneasy feeling when I picture him as a town. Just doesn't help out either like JS. Almost like SE and JS are related. He wants to push all his mistakes on being a newb which I completely understand however, he seems to just post the mistakes and then kinda floats along until he is forced to post again with content or something of that nature.

Scum (0% - 25%) -

Unsure about this slot. I would like to think about JS or SE in this slot. However, with them being prodded and possibly being replaced out I want to see what they or their replacements have to say. NotScience could be considered scum if he continues to just play like he is. However, I kinda view him as a null scum to null town kinda player.

[Drake Crusader]

Okay I've beene all kinds of busy recenty and don't really have time at the moment.

I'll get to this in the evening. In the man time if anyone has any IC questions just bold them.

I think he is dodging this thread with a passion. How can anyone take you seriously when you aren't even here to post anything ?

I'm not trying to confuse people.

If I was trying to confuse people, I'd drop a bunch of faux-softclaims and then claim VT.

I'm being entirely serious.

What is a faux softclaim ? Haven't you already claimed VT. Confused from this post.

Montosh tried this tactic of self voting then claiming town. He got lynched. Even though he claimed VT NS still hammered and then posted his lovely gif. Could NS really be VT also, since he is playing the EXACT same way Montosh was in D1? Or is this a ploy to get us to think he is town ? I can't vote NS at this time. I Rode hard on Montosh and he turned town. I need to see something more convincing to believe that NS is scum.
Plus!
I want to here JS story. I need something to prove he isn't scum. Since I have absolute-nothing on him. Provided he hasn't really posted anything at all.

[Drake Crusader]

I don't think Montosh voted for himself...?

Good point. My bad! He did mention that he wanted to just lynch himself at a point during the day. This is the second time that self lynching came up and I don't like it.

[Drake Crusader]

Sorry literally spend the whole of today trying to get my laptop's screen to function again. Wasn't that successfull...

I want to here JS story. I need something to prove he isn't scum. Since I have absolute-nothing on him. Provided he hasn't really posted anything at all.

Can you expand on this, what are you expecting of me? How would I prove that I wasn't scum?

I am expecting for you to at least post a little. It has been 17 pages at this point. What do you think about all the players?
You have been sitting in the shadows and haven't really broke stride with any feedback. I am just looking to see what you are thinking.
As a town I would of at least expected you to participate. I can't get a read on you properly because there really is nothing to look at.

[Drake Crusader]

why do you have 4 scumreads

Do you have any scum reads? You seem to be less on the attacking and more on the quiet side.

[Drake Crusader]

Internet is back up where I'm at, think it came back on before work.

In my book, everyone is mafia until proven otherwise, hence why 4 'mafia' reads. Without a flip or investigative role clearing someone, I never consider someone beyond suspicion. I used to, but a couple times closer friends on the site ended up killing me, so yeah, that broke that habit.

Honestly, I think that at least one of the quieter people is mafia in all likelihood. It's easy to lay low and not attract attention, especially if the wagons are ones that don't need to be influenced. More likely if drake is town; however, still applicable if mafia as the wagon had a quick start and finish. Plus, so far there's been no aggressive wagoning on quieter people (partly due to montosh/notscience, partly due to replacements), which would make it easier.

I have nothing to gauge jacob on, especially since have never played with him, so don't know his style. He's done nothing to incline me to think he's town or mafia.

More inclined to think that second would flip mafia. Also, dislike post 331, it feels very off for a town to say. Not inclined to vote a replacement before they post a couple times though and I really would like more input from privateI.

Drake, if you could give an explanation for why you used goon in your post late yesterday that could either help or hurt my view of you. I get caught up in small things as they tend to lead to bigger things.

Today has definitely muddied the water for me in regards to notscience. At this point, almost willing to believe that he would flip mafia as well.

I would have to give you two reasons and a question to answer yours.

First reason would be I wanted to stress in that post that I felt that Montosh was scum. I also felt that JacobSavage was involved with Montosh as a team. I used the term goon to symbolize the smaller mafia member. That if by chance JacobSavage was not in the mafia if we lynched him then by seeing who the mafia killed would show us who the goon was. ( this theory relied heavily on Montosh being scum). I could of chose several other words however, I also decided to choose goon as my word because it is indeed the role. When someone says mafia goon I imagine a henchman who would go around helping the main mafia man. So therefore, this complements my decision to label whoever the second member of the mafia "goon" or lessor mafia man.

Second would be that I did not want to label anyone other than Montosh at that time as Scum. This usage of goon would of been used again if Montosh flipped scum. Depending on who the night kill was I would of labeled the most scummiest as my Scum choice and the lessor would be my goon choice. Like right now at this moment in time I feel that JS would be my scum choice. The goon would be PrivateI.

My question is that : Since you stated you don't see the word goon used often would goon be a bad word choice to label my scum reads or should I just jumble them together under just "mafia" or "scum" ?

[Drake Crusader]

I agree for extension. I have to agree with Tigris about the second slot. To have it emptied out twice now doesn't give a very town feeling. However, hopefully this one won't also need a replacement!

[Drake Crusader]

Pretty sure notscience is scum.
Not sure on other people, help D:

You have looked over the thread and the best you can come up with is that NS is scum and your not sure on the other people?

^
Perfect reason why this slot is suspicious. I still stand on my NS flipping town. He might be a high and mighty cocky kind of player. He may also be a "just kill me already" kind of player. However, he seems town. I mean to me he is using Montosh style of play in regards to his lynch and that is a sign that I feel he may just not be the scum I once viewed him as.
This however, is where I want my vote to be!
VOTE: JacobSavage
You are on my scum list. Since you can't seem to produce anything that will show any usefulness to the town. I don't believe you are town.
Why I made this decision :
- No content
- No to very limited Scum-hunting
- Seems to just disappear and reappear at random
- Viewed as a drifting mafia member who will follow the leader.

[Drake Crusader]

Well, is there anything we need to talk about today, or shall we string up this scum?

You are talking about spaces or notscience?

Tigris has never led me astray let. Spaces was always a null town. If not for your role what would of gave it away ?

[Drake Crusader]

IPO defending spaces ?
JacobSavage a pal of Spaces all quiet then comes alive now that Spaces is in trouble ?
@anyone who could answer. How would a counterclaim work like, would they just say they are something else and argue with their results?

Tigris may not be town however, how on earth would we even find out? The only thing anyone could actually argue would be a counterclaim I guess and even then the only thing they could change is the night 1 action.
I mean we all know that Brian Skies was killled. However, the fact that Spaces did that little you played well game. I guess its settled then.
As much as I feel Jacob is scum I guess I will sit a day and see maybe wagons may change.

VOTE: JacobSavage

If we can get him to admit scum then its game.
Besides, we know Spaces is scum. So we have so many days to lynch someone who we all know is scum. Might as well just relax now. Not like he can do anything damaging to us.

[Drake Crusader]

IPO defending spaces ?
JacobSavage a pal of Spaces all quiet then comes alive now that Spaces is in trouble ?
@anyone who could answer. How would a counterclaim work like, would they just say they are something else and argue with their results?

Tigris may not be town however, how on earth would we even find out? The only thing anyone could actually argue would be a counterclaim I guess and even then the only thing they could change is the night 1 action.
I mean we all know that Brian Skies was killled. However, the fact that Spaces did that little you played well game. I guess its settled then.
As much as I feel Jacob is scum I guess I will sit a day and see maybe wagons may change.

VOTE: JacobSavage

If we can get him to admit scum then its game.
Besides, we know Spaces is scum. So we have so many days to lynch someone who we all know is scum. Might as well just relax now. Not like he can do anything damaging to us.

So it's you, eh?

So confused right now what is even going on. You guys have officially lost me.

I want to lynch the scum before she gets away with spewing WIFOM over the thread and confusing everything.

Already done.

So if she spews WIFOM would that be a scum tell ?
Or is spewing a good thing ?
UNVOTE:

[Drake Crusader]

So confused right now what is even going on. You guys have officially lost me.

What's so confusing? We have scum. Town lynches scum. Are you town? Why do you want to lynch someone else? You are the confusing one.

okay let me tell you what is going through my mind.
We have only a few players so things are getting heated.

So with only 2 people being scum we have a chance of a bulletproof, maf goon and tracker OR tracker, doctor and maf goon. With no mafia being lynched that leaves 2 left still roaming around.
However, could still have any of the setup's because a power role hasn't been lynched yet.

So now their was no kill night one that leaves a doctor , bulletproof , or jailkeeper.
with that nonsense aside.
When tigris claimed to be the tracker that leaves whoever was targeted night one a bulletproof or someone saved them with a doctor.
You guys said that most mods leave night for the full duration even when the mafia votes so that means either they didn't vote or they did and was saved.

So if the doctor claimed or the bulletproof claimed then I could see Tigris as the tracker.
The only thing that validates her claim is the night 2 investigation which targeted brian ( which is common knowledge)

Now this leaves me to believe that she could be scum all in all. With her claiming to be tracker that will leave the other power roles to be quiet in fear that they will be next to be lynched.
Who can counter claim her? I believe that the real roles should claim. However, how would we know who they are actually. With tigris being scum the process becomes - waits untill someone counter claims then kills them at night. IF NOT then the morning we find that some other town gets killed and tigris starts by saying "I followed <insert name> and they targeted <whoever died>. "
It is very clever indeed to be honest. This leaves who the partner is to tigris is . I like JS because he is all quiet until tigris starts off with the tracker comment and now he sparks right up and fires for a lynch of spaces because "he is scum."
This appears strange and I don't like it. That confirms my vote on JS however, now I feel that Tiris could be the scum we are looking for.

VOTE: Tigris

Now we are lynching confirmed scum.

[Drake Crusader]

Yeah, Drake is scum.

Cool.

Coming from the guy who cried wolf and self votes?
Very unique.
What is wrong with my approach ?
Can you honestly sit there and tell me you never thought of this scenario before?

[Drake Crusader]

If Tigris is still alive tomorrow we can worry about whether or not this has all been an elaborate setup. If Tigris is telling the truth there is about a 50/50 chance he dies tonight and makes the whole thing moot. Lynching Tigris today is such a hilariously awful idea I don't even think it's scummy honestly. Scum would try to be a

little

subtle.

Well if we have 7 players now.
2 mafia 5 town

lynch one town today following tigris advice
then tigris kills one town at night.
2 mafia 3 town

Depending on what happens with night kill then that would depend on who gets lynched.
for example tigris dies
1 mafia 3 town

maifa kills another town
1 mafia 2 town.

OR THE OTHER SETUP

Lynch tigris ( flip scum)
mafia targets whoever
1 mafia 4 town

OR

Lynch tigris (flips tracker or town or whoever)
mafia still targets someone
2 mafia 3 town

BOTH LEAD TO
we lynch spaces the next day (if tigris flips something else)
and mafia kills someone
1 mafia and 2 town


MY IDEA AND PLAN:

Tigris has a higher chance of flipping scum than spaces or NS. Just because he is the first to flip the PR card and start the endgame phase.
Tigris flips mafia we are down one.
Tigris flips town or role then we know that spaces is scum.
Is spaces worth another himself and another town member getting killed?

The idea on a challenge to prove tigris or disprove:
We know that someone in the game has a role to save someone.
I don't believe that the mafia would miss a deadline since NO ONE declared a V/LA before the deadline. So I would imagine that both mafia were present.
I believe because if they we had a jail keeper or a cop then the results would of been posted on D2.
Honestly then I believe that the other role should claim.
Who ever claims the other role and says who they saved would allow us to cross reference to see the best choice.

Tigris says that Nom was targeted D1.
If someone saved him then claim to support.
That would tell us either that Tigris is correct or not.

Correct - we end lynching scum spaces because tigris claim would of been proved
Not - we end up lynching scum tigris and then we save a town spaces from lynch.

Ex. Tigris is scum
that would leave us at
1 mafia 4 town
after night kill

If no one claims then I feel Tigris is the best choice.
This setup in my mind also shows that no one was protected or roleblocked or shot was bulletproof or afk for the night duration.

Understand what I am trying to get at?

[Drake Crusader]

Tigris being alive tomorrow wouldn't be conclusive proof he was scum, no. But him being dead tomorrow would be conclusive proof he was innocent. So since there is some chance of learning more information overnight, we should lynch the ADMITTED SCUM instead.

I'm about ready to throw the lynching vote on just so that you guys don't have time to talk yourselves out of a guaranteed scumlynch. Regardless of Tigris's motives, town-Spaces would not have admitted to being scum. We cannot lose by lynching him.

Sorry for double post. I didn't see this posted.

We should ask spaces what it ment. However, regardless my plan would work even if he is mafia.

@SPACES what was your intent with that message.
Just a town giving up like Montosh ?
or a scum confession like NS ?
or even a town giving up like a scum ( like NS lol) ?

[Drake Crusader]

Drake is scum. Cool.

How does an UN CC'D PR have a higher chance of flipping scum than the GUILTY from said pr?

I noted why above.
With having the other person claim then we would know for sure.
Innocent until proven guilty.

So whats wrong with it ?
besides inserting "lol under each sentence ? lol
Really, the risk of losing 2 towns today is bad.
My idea would minimize risk to one scum and possibly one town.

[Drake Crusader]

aka Drake

I only was questioning the validity of his claim to be tracker.
When nom voted spaces and it flipped scum it confirmed his role.
I only wanted to the other role claim to prove that tigris was really the tracker.

I still feel pretty solid on a JacobSavage Lynch.

so,
VOTE: JacobSavage

[Drake Crusader]

I was about to say the same thing.

Why is it Drake or Me?

Because I believe your the last scum of the group. You don't like to answer questions or engage. You sit in the back of the game and watch all that happens. Clever played. Well my vote will stay on JS I can honestly say he is the worst of the pair ( TIP or JS ). Nom can't be scum because he was targeted night 1 according to tirgris. I don't believe scum can target themselves and not get killed ?????
Anyway , NS is just a strange cookie. He wants to kill himself then for a point when the pressure falls off on him he is back to attacking again. I kinda like the style it is cocky but, it works.

[Drake Crusader]

But he's confirmed Town.

I still don't understand how he is confirmed ?

- Now I know he "claimed" that is spaces admitted him to being his partner then it was against the rules.
However, the mod hasn't said anything on this. I also don't know if that was a last ditch effort to throw blame on him or an actual throw in the towel he is scum.
Now that I look it over, Spaces did say he was a sore loser in a post earlier. This could reflect that he may be actually say NS is scum.

UNVOTE:

Gonna dwell on this.
list is : ( scum to not scum)
--------
JS
NS
TIP
NOM

[Drake Crusader]

And there you go.

I have to agree with Nom.
I don't see where your coming from.


If he believed they were throwing the game rather than creating WIFOM.
So he can technically be a scum member.
However, he can actually be town.
Since NS was really under no pressure to get axed today from yesterdays standpoint. When spaces said that NS was his partner that falls under the acceptable move.
If NS was under a lot of pressure and it was a choice between the two and they picked spaces. He says that NS was his partner. Then that would be a non acceptable move because then he would of compromise the game?

This is a good time for me to learn more about this situation.
Mafia can reveal their partners.
How do you know someone is confirmed town other then the reasoning I posted on Tigris?
Unless someone counterclaims to oust a PR how would you even know if someone is telling the truth.

[Drake Crusader]

Guys! He's town!
Hnnnnnng

He might be. But it's not definitive unless you're claiming scum, and it's best to keep an open mind at this point, because he hasn't really behaved in a townie manner.

Do I ever?

no?


Anyway, I don't think NS is town. He has manage to survive this far on good looks and strange tactics.
He is second I just don't think he is the 100% scum. Then I don't think JS is either.
TiP just is strange with his whole confirm town theory however, just because spaces cried to NS to get him lynched doesn't mean that TiP can call on NS as being a confirm town and him actually being one.

[Drake Crusader]

What?

Drake's jumpyness seems more scum focused, he gave up pretty quickly when it looked like his push on me wasn't working.

I have been pushing for your lynch since d2. When have I gave up ?
I can't be 100% about anyone really. Which is why I listed both of them as suspects.

[Drake Crusader]

You gave up just recently.

Un-Voting to review the thread to see if their is a better place to vote isn't giving up.
It is weighing options vs. personal opinion.
I still believe your the last scum. However, my vote on you wouldn't do anything really.
If I stick with my current thought's:
VOTE: JacobSavage
Then I have followed through. When would I ever gave you the idea that I "Gave Up?"

[Drake Crusader]

Nothing new really to report on. Other than I await Nom's overview on the game.
Just a general question :
If the mod is V/LA would that affect the progression of the game?

I've got the game until it ends or Zaicon comes back.

Vel, Newbie ListMod

[Drake Crusader]

I do understand where your coming from here Nom. I can see the reasoning. NS could potentially be a scum however, he does seem more town the JS. Montosh called JS out from the beginning as a scum read. He has done nothing to attack or go out of his way to scumhunt other than slide day to day and join other people pushes. So I would be all for a JS lynch. Going out on a limb for a NS lynch because even though I can understand what your saying. I just don't feel that he is scum at all. However, Looking into the NS - TIP interaction. Could TIP be more of a suspect then NS or JS ? The man jumps in and stays flip-flopy all game untill now. If he replaced scum at a time like this he would need to buddy up to protect himself. Since spaces flipped scum and such proved Tigris claim to be a PR. I trust his reads more than Montosh. Which was TIP. The question that sits in my mind would be: is TIP (who was Tigris's first read) be more of a scum choice between JS or NS? ( Being that Tigris called for both of them [ JS being before or after NS ])
For JS:
He hasn't placed a serious vote all game. Other then the vote on spaces I believe.
He hasn't provided anything useful truly to the progression of the game.
He won't even engage or defend. He will however, provide one sentence answers until the crowd goes away.
NS:
He has voted himself at L-1. Has talked about self lynching himself and has voted himself twice to remove pressure.
Very aggressive however, With him killing Tigris at night he would give himself the edge to wipe everyone else off.
Seems very buddy buddy with TIP. This takes into account how swayable TIP could be. He uses this for an advantage to gain an extra vote. OR TIP uses it to defend himself and shield the fact that he may be scum.
Hammered a Town which he pushed for a lynch. When he was providing a town vibe at end he hammers and just laughs it off. This would be the start of the distaste for him.
TIP:
Jumped in and supported NS even if NS was scum I believe TIP would protect him to the death.
Supports an idea that he could be scum even if NS is town. Doesn't weigh options but, will follow NS vote around.
Those two make me feel that he is scum and NS is really town.

The mod did come out with that statement. However, it didn't really defend NS claim. It stills leaves a lot of discussion around it and gray area is always nice for Scum to hide in.
My read list would be :
JS
NS/TIP

Thoughts ?

[Drake Crusader]

Well I guess you do have a point on the time left. We don't have long. After debating on this one. I guess I could either keep vote on JS and end the day in a no Lynch. Or
UNVOTE:
VOTE: NotScience
NS today. Then its all over.