Newbie 1441 (Game Over)

[Montosh]

Lets look at the order of Montosh's input on JS- Unhelpful to town, then scummy. Weird, a scumread of mine would be pushed because they're SCUMMY first. Not uselessness.

Now, Drake treats Montosh like he knows he's going to flip scum. As spaces noted, that statement relies heavily on the premise that JS is town, as without the IC (a common scum-target along with SEs) on N1, that will clue people into the scumteam. Now, this is apparently more important than the person he's pretty sure is scum? So, he wants the person he's pretty sure to be scum alive tomorrow? No. That's not how it works. This is an attempt to look like a bus while secretly fighting his buddy's lynch.

1st part: Could you please stop being vague and just say what you mean?

2nd part: I'm not seeing what you're seeing to be honest. Could a voice of reason(Maybe Tigris if he's still here, or Nominull) analyse this?

[notscience]

But like drake points out, if we lynch either ns or myself, then will Jacob continue to lurk and be unhelpful to town(and frankly scummy) in day 2?

Unhelpful to town before scummy. That means that takes more premise in your case as you thought of that to be more important.

And I really invite you to try and discredit me more.

The second half makes perfect sense. "Lynch JS although I'm confident Montosh will flip scum to see who scum kills and that should tell us who the goon is" (Now, this is something to remember regardless of the Montosh flip. This implies one of two things. IF montosh is scum, that it's duo-goon, as a JS flip being town would mean that scum has two goons because Drake says the kill will tell us who the GOON is. Or, JS is the scum PR and Drake is his goon.)

[Montosh]

Unhelpful to town before scummy. That means that takes more premise in your case as you thought of that to be more important.

And I really invite you to try and discredit me more.

"Unhelpful to town before scummy" I still don't get this part.

1: That wasn't the reason I voted him. I voted him to apply pressure, something which others did as well, yet you go after me for it(and Jacob still hasn't answered my original question, so I keep my vote)

2: How was I trying to discredit you? I asked you a question. I asked you to clarify on a post you made. I'm pretty sure that was never banned in a game of Mafia.

The second half makes perfect sense. "Lynch JS although I'm confident Montosh will flip scum to see who scum kills and that should tell us who the goon is" (Now, this is something to remember regardless of the Montosh flip. This implies one of two things. IF montosh is scum, that it's duo-goon, as a JS flip being town would mean that scum has two goons because Drake says the kill will tell us who the GOON is. Or, JS is the scum PR and Drake is his goon.)

I'm still honestly not understanding you.

[Drake Crusader]

What did I say spaces?

Now, let's look at BOTH of what they say about JS.

Lets look at the order of Montosh's input on JS- Unhelpful to town, then scummy. Weird, a scumread of mine would be pushed because they're SCUMMY first. Not uselessness.

Now, Drake treats Montosh like he knows he's going to flip scum. As spaces noted, that statement relies heavily on the premise that JS is town, as without the IC (a common scum-target along with SEs) on N1, that will clue people into the scumteam. Now, this is apparently more important than the person he's pretty sure is scum? So, he wants the person he's pretty sure to be scum alive tomorrow? No. That's not how it works. This is an attempt to look like a bus while secretly fighting his buddy's lynch.

I kinda want to axe JacobSavage this day. The reason would be :
I feel that Montosh is scum however, if we lynch JacobSavage then see who the mafia nightkills that would give us an indication of who is the goon's!

So you think that Jacob is mafia? Because there's only two mafia, and if Montosh is also mafia, we'd be done with the game and we wouldn't have to use night kills to know anything.
Or do you think Jacob is town? And yet you still want to lynch him instead of your actual scum read? THIS speaks much more to you being Montosh's scumbud.

My vote is still on Montosh because I feel he is scum. I am asking if their is any value of not lynching him and going for JacobSavage.
The reason I get confused is because:
JS could be a partner for Montosh.
JS is the experienced player Montosh is not. So JS lurks and let Montosh take the beating. That could be plausible.
If I was protecting Montosh I wouldn't be pushing for his lynch.

However, JS could just be a not very helpful town person. If we lynch him off then we know that we have Montosh as the scum and whoever his partner may be.
Js lynch ends D1
Montosh NK one of us to make it D2.
Then we vote Montosh off and end D2 in a matter of minutes.
We would of elimated a crappy player and a mafia goon. So then we are down to more serious things.
With only 1 Mafia member left that would mean the town has the upper hand.


IF JS flips scum then town wins and we go back to queue. Since lynching Montosh would equate both being killed.

[notscience]

"Unhelpful to town before scummy" I still don't get this part.

It is sequential order.

1: That wasn't the reason I voted him. I voted him to apply pressure, something which others did as well, yet you go after me for it(and Jacob still hasn't answered my original question, so I keep my vote)

So your pressure vote for a poor reason because others did as well?

2: How was I trying to discredit you? I asked you a question. I asked you to clarify on a post you made. I'm pretty sure that was never banned in a game of Mafia.

That whole voice of reason bit.

Pedit- Again, you're debating lynching someone who COULD be scum over someone who IS a strong sumread.

[Montosh]

Well it seems you've all decided i'm scum. I've presented my case. Lynch me first so you can get somewhere when you realize i'm town.

@notscience I didn't vote Jacob because others did. I voted Jacob because I found it suspicious. I was pointing out that of all the people that voted for him, i'm the only one you're going after.
Also, I find that Tigris and Nominull are the most reasonable here right now. I never said anything against you there or implied it.

[notscience]

You definitely implied it, asking them to "make sense of" my case.

I'm not going after people for voting JS. It's in the context, you see. Not all scumtells are scumtells in the same lighting. Scum do the same things town does, but differently.

[Montosh]

Ok, can you lynch me already please?

[Drake Crusader]

Well it seems you've all decided i'm scum. I've presented my case. Lynch me first so you can get somewhere when you realize i'm town.

@notscience I didn't vote Jacob because others did. I voted Jacob because I found it suspicious. I was pointing out that of all the people that voted for him, i'm the only one you're going after.
Also, I find that Tigris and Nominull are the most reasonable here right now. I never said anything against you there or implied it.

Ok, can you lynch me already please?

How is this helping us then ?
If you are town then why aren't you help anyone find scum. Show me something to work with.
You have jumped from ship to ship and only fought with NotScience.
If you think he is scum give me a reason. Because to this point I feel NotScience is a cocky town who likes to "throw shit and see if it sticks"
Your about as useful as JS. At least your active.

[Montosh]

I've given you all i've got. Unless there's new material, my case pretty much rests. I'll look through the thread a bit more and see if I can come up with anything else. But otherwise, this is what you've got to go on.

[Tigris]

In 275, if you had worded it, 'voice of experience' rather than 'voice of reason' it would have sounded better. Basically, by using reason, that is an implicit attempt at discreditation.

I kinda want to axe JacobSavage this day. The reason would be :
I feel that Montosh is scum however, if we lynch JacobSavage then see who the mafia nightkills that would give us an indication of who is the goon's!
After looking at JS's play style and how he as so far played this game. I don't have a good feeling about him.
OR
I can be happy and keep my vote on Montosh and know that he is scum. However, if Jacob is mafia in which makes Montosh actually town. Then that would give him a upper hand.
I am trying to figure out:
"Is it more important to lynch someone who plays scummy or someone who doesn't even participate in playing." ? I mean Jacob isn't much help and if we lynch Montosh regardless of his alignment would't Jacob still be lurking and barely playing on day 2 ?

1) Bad logic in terms of using night kills to determine who mafia are. At this point, I have a fair idea of who the mafia WON'T kill, but even that is speculative.
2) Second time the word goon had been used, i.e. it is not a common word. Applied towards this game rather than concluded game. I do not like that a new player used it at all. Especially since only used once, remainder of time used more common 'scum'.
3) Know he is scum? At this point, there are two players who know something about another player.
4) 'If Jacob is mafia in which makes Montosh actually town' What? I know that I have had issues understanding your phrasing in the past, but if that says what I think it does, that's another huge leap of logic there. Jacob=mafia =/ montosh=town The only person who can make that type of claim with any certainty is the other mafia since they know that there's only one other mafia.

My vote is still on Montosh because I feel he is scum. I am asking if their is any value of not lynching him and going for JacobSavage.
The reason I get confused is because:
JS could be a partner for Montosh.
JS is the experienced player Montosh is not. So JS lurks and let Montosh take the beating. That could be plausible.
If I was protecting Montosh I wouldn't be pushing for his lynch.

However, JS could just be a not very helpful town person. If we lynch him off then we know that we have Montosh as the scum and whoever his partner may be.
Js lynch ends D1
Montosh NK one of us to make it D2.
Then we vote Montosh off and end D2 in a matter of minutes.
We would of elimated a crappy player and a mafia goon. So then we are down to more serious things.
With only 1 Mafia member left that would mean the town has the upper hand.


IF JS flips scum then town wins and we go back to queue. Since lynching Montosh would equate both being killed.

1) Again, know. No one town knows anything day 1.
2) let's say that both jacob and montosh are town. Following the second plan is a recipe for a loss. We get two mislynches and end day 2 'in a matter of minutes' No, that's not town talk.
3) There is 0 guarantee that jacob and montosh have a mafia out of the two (or both are). The only way for someone to have knowledge that one is would be if they are mafia (obviously if both are, the second sentence is moot).

Still partly on the fence for everyone else, drake I am not on the fence at all. And you always vote for someone you feel is confirmed mafia.
VOTE: drake

Only way I move that vote is to prevent a no lynch due to lack of votes, beyond that, almost certainly won't happen.

[Montosh]

@Tigris Fair enough, the 'voice of reason' thing was a little bit much.

At this point no one has many votes on them(except me of course, L-2). I don't see votes for Jacob going anywhere right now, but he's just too suspicious, and neither drake or ns rank higher on my scum priority list. I'll keep my vote on him for now.

[notscience]

VOTE: Drake

I agree fullheartedly with Tigris.

[Spaces]

The idea of killing town when you "know" someone else is mafia really does make me

very

nervous, since none of us know for sure that Montosh is actually mafia.
Also, the fact that Drake is pushing to lynch Jacob, all while voting for Montosh is also fairly scummy. Like trying to manipulate the town without actually committing to your own convinctions.

VOTE: Drake

If you think Jacob should be lynched, vote for Jacob. If you think Montosh should be lynched,

argue

for that.

[Nominull]

Trying to think what in my ISO could have possibly given the impression that I'm reasonable.

[notscience]

Trying to think what in my ISO could have possibly given the impression that I'm reasonable.

Maybe it's the part where you implicitly call me crap and that you won't take what I say on face value

[Nominull]

Trying to think what in my ISO could have possibly given the impression that I'm reasonable.

Maybe it's the part where you implicitly call me crap and that you won't take what I say on face value

Yeah, I guess that's pretty reasonable.

[Nominull]

I'm gonna do something real scummy here, but we don't have long to deadline and that "lynch the IC" plan did seem sorta bad.

VOTE: Drake Crusader

That's L-1, please state your intent before placing the lynching vote. Drake, you may wish to claim, as we have very little time remaining. If we believe your claim we will need time to find a new lynch target (Montosh).

Let it be known I would prefer a lynch on Montosh, but notsci has stopped trying to lynch his "obvscum" in favor of lynching someone for trying not to lynch their "obvscum".

[Spaces]

Nominull, you feel like Montosh is more likely scum? To me, wanting to lynch a town over your mafia-read is more scummy than the vote-jumping and defensive nature of Montosh.

[notscience]

Trying to think what in my ISO could have possibly given the impression that I'm reasonable.

Maybe it's the part where you implicitly call me crap and that you won't take what I say on face value

Yeah, I guess that's pretty reasonable.

I'm gonna do something real scummy here, but we don't have long to deadline and that "lynch the IC" plan did seem sorta bad.

VOTE: Drake Crusader

That's L-1, please state your intent before placing the lynching vote. Drake, you may wish to claim, as we have very little time remaining. If we believe your claim we will need time to find a new lynch target (Montosh).

Let it be known I would prefer a lynch on Montosh, but notsci has stopped trying to lynch his "obvscum" in favor of lynching someone for trying not to lynch their "obvscum".

Scumslips take precedence.

[Nominull]

Nominull, you feel like Montosh is more likely scum? To me, wanting to lynch a town over your mafia-read is more scummy than the vote-jumping and defensive nature of Montosh.

It's weird, but it's reasonably plausible that Drake Crusader is just communicating badly/being understood badly. In particular, I can't figure out why people think he thinks Jacob is town. He was a scumread when he made a list of reads and he never said anything non-hypothetical to indicate otherwise.

Yeah you know what I don't think I can do this. Get back on Montosh guys. VOTE: Montosh

[JacobSavage]

Hi, sorry my screen's broken so reading is harder than useual.

Montosh you seem to be backing away from lynching ns, do you think he is town?

[Montosh]

Montosh you seem to be backing away from lynching ns, do you think he is town?

No, but he's not my top scumread and there's no other support from others to lynch him. So I go with my top scumread.

[Montosh]

Honestly guys, the only one with significant votes on them is drake, while I do see why you voted for him, I do just see a guy with some flawed logic. His plan assumes certain people have been confirmed as town/scum. It seems to me like he just made a mistake.

Last thing I want today is a no lynch, but I can't see myself voting drake at the moment.

[Spaces]

I believe other than him my only other suspicion would be back at JacobSavage. He hasn't really thrown much in and it bothers me to think that he could be a

potential buddy for Montosh

.

I kinda want to axe JacobSavage this day. The reason would be :
I feel that Montosh is scum however, if we lynch JacobSavage then see who the mafia nightkills that would give us an indication of who is the goon's!
After looking at JS's play style and how he as so far played this game. I don't have a good feeling about him.
OR
I can be happy and keep my vote on Montosh and know that he is scum. However, if Jacob is mafia in which makes Montosh actually town. Then that would give him a upper hand.
I am trying to figure out:
"Is it more important to lynch someone who plays scummy or someone who doesn't even participate in playing." ? I mean Jacob isn't much help and if we lynch Montosh regardless of his alignment would't Jacob still be lurking and barely playing on day 2 ?

It's weird, but it's reasonably plausible that Drake Crusader is just communicating badly/being understood badly. In particular, I can't figure out why people think he thinks Jacob is town. He was a scumread when he made a list of reads and he never said anything non-hypothetical to indicate otherwise.

Okay, I think I misunderstood. I thought Drake was implying that he thought Jacob was town and wanted to lynch him anyway. But it looks like what he's saying is that,

should we lynch Montosh

, Jacob (also being scum) might evade a second day lynch due to his experience, which is why we should lynch Jacob first?

I'm still not sure that's right, and if it is, the logic is still kind of weird since Montosh is the stronger scum read, but it's not lynch-worthy.

VOTE: Montosh