NG 1479: Somebody's Gonna Die! (OVER!)

[VictorDeAngelo]

/confirm

[VictorDeAngelo]

VOTE: vote Espenonage

Did not like post 18. Seems too keen to imply he's town for no reason.

PEdit: @Dritan

Second Game - first completed in sig.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I don't really see what was unclear about my post. He implied he was town in post 18 by saying Dritan wouldn't vote for a scum in rvs. It looked like an underhanded way for him say "I'm town" in his first post and I didn't like it.

@Edos - If you didn't like my post, why did you rvs in post 23 instead of calling me out then?

@Jon - I don't understand what you're trying to say. Is your vote rvs or were you trying to make a serious point.

@Dritan - I don't understand what your saying as well. Your vote is also on Espeonage so why is it OK for you to vote him and not me? Are you implying that I shouldn't be laying a vote down this early for a post I didn't like?

[VictorDeAngelo]

@Dritan - So why not move your vote. RVS is clearly over if people are discussing my vote.

You can't criticise for using my vote to make a serious point (i.e. is Espeonage being crafty by implying he is town in post 18) and then leave your vote on the same player for a jokey reason.You said it yourself when you said "I mean town's only weapon is their vote so they need to be careful where they put it ." so why are you so happy to waste yours.

And then you say something which really pings my scumdar:

"you dont need why to have a vote in place all the time so whats the point of voting someone for the smallest doubt . when you find someone enough scummy and want him lynched then put your vote .but to change your vote everytime someone says something scummy ? "

If you beleived this then I would expect one of the following: A) You unvote
or
B) You'd vote me.

I don't like how your doing neither;

VOTE: Dritan

[VictorDeAngelo]

Mind if I correct a few misreps there Dritan.

First I was clearly not concerned with the fact you hadn't removed your joke vote but the hypocrisy in 36 (you know, when you accused me of using my vote carelessly when I at least had a reason for my vote as opposed to you).

Second I don't see why I can't question people about their motives. If that comes across as defensive so be it. At least I'm prepared to get my hands dirty.

Third: What 'blanty accusations' have I been throwing around exactly?

Fourth, when did I imply that everyone questioning me was scum?

[VictorDeAngelo]

@Drone67 - What is your experience playing mafia? Also why did it take you half an hour to unvote after discovering there was a second page?

@Edos - Fair enough. I like that your trying to get us out of rvs.

I had my joke phase vote in place while you were voting and unvoting everyone that comed into your mind .

Excuse me but I was not "voting and unvoting everyone that came into my mind." I placed a single vote on Espeonage and then once started looking scummy I shifted it onto you.

questioning people about their motives is the best thing to be done as a townie but what i cant understand why you need to put your vote on them aswell

Well I wanted to use my vote. If you don't like it, then so be it.

i didnt said you were implying that everyone questioning you is scum but apparently so it looks into your mind . just after I made some questions to you and what happend ? you put your vote on me.

When you say stuff like:

Not everyone questioning you is scum and you need to understand that .

It sure seems to say I think everyone questioning me is scum.

Also you didn't answer this question:

Third: What 'blanty accusations' have I been throwing around exactly?

[VictorDeAngelo]

VOTE: unvote

I'm not leaving anyone at L-1 after what happened last game.

More thoughts later.

[VictorDeAngelo]

OOG: Sorry to hear that Espe, hope you feel better soon.

Mostly the fact that they are mostly ignoring every one other than each other forming cases on each other, not really caring about anyone else, mostly it is just a hunch. Sure other people on joining onto it, but mostly it is Victor vs Dritan. I don't know for sure though.

Funnily enough as you say this me and Dritan were the only players you've discussed in this game. What are your opinions on other players right now?

HITD is town for his recent Dritan vote. Scum wouldn't stick out their head and put someone at L-1 so early, especially when they're unfamiliar with site meta. (Speaking of which, @HITD, I can show you why no lynching isn't beneficial to town if you're curious)

If you wish to. I've been told that there is a 27% chance of hitting scum. But, flipping it makes it a 73% chance of hitting town and I've never cared for those odds. But, if there is something else. I'm all ears for it.

Don't these figures assume we just lynch at random? What if there was a good reason for laying down a vote?

@Edos, HITD, Yuki

- Any reason none of you asked for a claim off Dritan once he was put to L-1?

@Dritan

- Claim please!

@Drone67

- What do you think of lynching Dritan today?

[VictorDeAngelo]

@Victor

what to claim ? it isnt like i have any power role . just VT . is that good enough ? will that change anything? no , it wont imo

Victor, if you have something clearly you vote them. It is a very rare event to find something such as that because Day One is like a piece of tape that has lost it's glue. Nothing usually sticks no matter how many times you try to stick it to something. Majority of the time it's a baseless accusations and arguing and joking. Can you hit scum? Yeah, but not as likely as hitting a townie without a proven scum slip or something.

[VictorDeAngelo]

EBWODP: Let's try that again:

@Victor

what to claim ? it isnt like i have any power role . just VT . is that good enough ? will that change anything? no , it wont imo

A role claim is what I wanted. Like I said I don't want to lynch a PR Day 1.

VOTE: Dritan

Victor, if you have something clearly you vote them. It is a very rare event to find something such as that because Day One is like a piece of tape that has lost it's glue. Nothing usually sticks no matter how many times you try to stick it to something. Majority of the time it's a baseless accusations and arguing and joking. Can you hit scum? Yeah, but not as likely as hitting a townie without a proven scum slip or something.

I still feel that worrying about the Maths only works if we lynch at random. Look at this way, do you believe that Dritan is more likely scum than town at the moment?

Also why don't you answer my other question?

Speaking of which;

@Dritan

- i'm still waiting on a response from an unanswered question from you too

[VictorDeAngelo]

I put the vote on L-1 and even stated so people knew whoever did so would be hammering and looking very suspicious when he hasn't even tried to defend himself. There is no reason for anyone to tell someone to do such a thing if the votes are that close. If he wants to protect himself he would do it without me or anyone telling him to say his role. It also looks scummy to say I'm voting for you now say your role. Don't you think?

To the contrary if you're putting someone in self-hammer/quickhammer range I would expect any townie to ask for a claim. In fact in the games I read before starting the standard was to get a claim at L-2.

PEdit: Dritan I believe your claim and if you flip town then we can look at your wagon tomorrow. Hopefully there will be no hammer until Drone/Espe have posted their thoughts.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Also Dritan you still haven't answered my question from 52.

[VictorDeAngelo]

What I meant was I didn't believe he would be false claiming as a town PR. He's either VT or scum. As such he's a safe lynch today.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Third: What 'blanty accusations' have I been throwing around exactly?

@Dritan

- This question

[VictorDeAngelo]

How is that mean he would be false claiming something. You said yourself that you believe his claim. How does you believing the claim mean he would make a fake claim about the role?

As I said the worst thing we could Day 1 is lynch a PR. For example we lynch the bullet proof townie Day 1 in the Rubber Duck Affair and from then on the game went downhill fast.

I am confident we would not be lynching a PR if we lynched Dritan (and if he is a PR then he screwed us all over by lying). Someone has to die Day 1 and it should either be scum or a VT.

Also, really thinking about it, me and Dritan were both replacements in this game. Majority (meaning 99% of the time) of the time it's done by those who were just given VT and find it boring to be that role and not play the game expecting some PR. Him claiming VT does make sense and I think he is a VT. Calling him a safe lynch sounds real scummy to me.

You've lost me, why does player's being replacements affect the possibility of them being a PR. Wouldn't most of our role PM's say VT?

Also if you believed his claim in #86 why didn't you unvote in #90?

[VictorDeAngelo]

You mean 95 when I saw his post? I made that post in due because just because someone says to do it doesn't mean you should. Then I made another post, and saw you make that claim on him where it stuck out on me. I can keep my vote wherever I choose to be. If it's on him, so be it. But, as soon as you put it at L-1 I made the unvote off of him and posted my vote on to you.

First why would I mean 95? I asked about post 90. Why bring up a different post?

I was asking about the fact you said that you thought he was a VT (the thing you thought I was saying and attacked me on) but you didn't unvote either. So now I'm confused. Did you want to go through with his lynch after he claimed VT or not?

Also I don't understand why it matters that I put Dritan back to L-1?

Also, how do I know if most of our roles will say VT? I know there are a few PR's counting from scum and town side if it's following the matrix. Majority of our pm's will state were Pro-Town or PT though.

The setups explained in the mod's posts at the start of the game. We have at most two power roles and there are two scum. Everyone else is Vanilla Townie.

It's highly unlikely that someone who has a PR will not play in a game. They usually are just the VT role. I'd like to know someone who has had to replace a PR before. I never played in this forum before and if it's common I will succumb that I was wrong to make that basis.

OK I see what your saying now, but I doubt we can just assume replacements are based solely on someone seeing their role PM and saying "I aint playing that role" and disappearing.

[VictorDeAngelo]

@Dritan

Huh so you did. I'm not sure what you meant by 'blanty' but I assumed you meant 'blatant' at the time and I still don't really understand what you're getting at. As you said yourself the only accusation I made was the same point you made.

"me being defensive is completely pointless too"

When did I accuse you of this?

[VictorDeAngelo]

So I was throwing dirt by making the same conclusion you did a post earlier?

[VictorDeAngelo]

So I was throwing dirt by making the same conclusion you did a post earlier?

in a way yes . you were trying to make that "slip" bigger then it was . trying to exaggerate and probably convince some lazy townies to follow you

A) That's not what I did.
B) Even if I had done that how could it be tantamount to throwing dirt if it was the same point you were making at the time?

[VictorDeAngelo]

First stop implying I was copying you, I didn't even see your post until I had written mine (hence the need to PEdit to respond to you)

Second your free to believe what you like about the vote but it should be clear to anyone reading it that post 20 contains no mudslinging. Also, since you ignored it in 28 but then suddenly felt the need to comment in 34 (conveniently after Edos had placed another vote on me), I remain sceptical that even you believe what your saying.

[VictorDeAngelo]

HITD - I wasn't concerned with what was in post 90 but more precisely what wasn't. I thought that point was clear but let reiterate.

Dritan claimed VT in post 86. I was wondering what stopped you unvoting there and then. Your subsequent posts have made it sound like you believed he was town at that point and now you seem to say your worried about him being hammered by scum. Why did you need for me to say I didn't think he was false claiming before you unvoted?

The other worry I have is why your suddenly attacking me for putting him at L-1. Where was that concern back in post 72 when you put him to L-1 the first time?

As for the last paragraph, I don't understand what your trying to say here either. I do dislike your sudden shift to link your scum read to me to your gut rather than my posting.

[VictorDeAngelo]

OK so there's bits I understand and bits I don't.

I could accept you simply not seeing his claim until post 95. But the next bit doesn't make sense with that. If it was simply you missing his claim why do you feel the need to say "I parked my vote on him because there was no real danger of him getting lynched at that point as he was L-2." He was at L-2 for like an hour and a half (between me unvoting and then revoting). In fact there was 11 minutes between the claim and my vote. Before then he was L-1 and you were scumreading him. I can't really believe that you suddenly stopped scum reading him because he said he was VT and I made comment about believing him not to be a PR. It just feels forced.

As for the last paragraph, for future reference if you want to say someone is scum, just say their scum. Making convoluted statements just confuses people.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I don't know your scum. Which is why I won't state you are scum. If I say you are scum and you end up not. Well, now I am in a whole nother shit storm aren't I?

So your happy to say stuff like "you aint got no VT role" to imply I'm scum but your not happy enough to just say it straight out. How weasely of you.

I listened to Dritan and then me and him argued back and then me and you started to argue while you still messing with Dritan. I'm trying to answer every post in order so not to mix up what I've read and what I haven't read. I was scum reading Dritan and you. Dritan has convinced me through me and you arguing with him and with the votes he had on him he would have caved under the pressure but didn't. You on the other hand are my focus point. I was arguing with you, I wanted to have more evidence before I just laid my vote on you and you gave it to me with the contradiction. The time you unvoted and revoted me and Dritan were arguing. Why would I unvote him if I am picking him apart?

And the story changes yet again.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I never said you don't have a VT role. I said my gut feeling is your hiding something. You could be hiding something, you might not. How can I say you are scum?

I guess it must have been a different HiddenInTheDark who said:

To your second quote.

Okay then, but that doesn't mean you got the VT role.

I do think he was a VT. I think you are hiding something. It's a gut feeling alone so don't bother asking me to show posts that show how you are scummy or hiding something.

Which was swiftly followed by the clarification...

My last paragraph is stating that just because a bunch got sent out doesn't mean you got one.

I believe that Dritan has a VT role, not you.

PEdit:

@Jon_H

- Why wouldn't we get a claim? As I already stated I'm not repeating my last game and seeing a Power Role get lynched Day 1.

[VictorDeAngelo]

PEdit: @Jon_H - Why wouldn't we get a claim? As I already stated I'm not repeating my last game and seeing a Power Role get lynched Day 1.

You

weren't holding the hammer, you couldn't have lynched them. By asking for the claim you just narrowed down the pool where the PRs' are. If we believe the claim.

There's more benefit for scum to want this info than Town.

But he was at L-1. If someone had hammered before a claim and he was a PR we would be down a PR. Hence why I unvoted when I asked for the claim. Why would I want to leave the hammer open when I didn't know if we were about to lose a PR?

[VictorDeAngelo]

@ Victor Why ask for the claim if you weren't at that moment going to swing the hammer? Any time before that only helps scum and hurts Town. That's the issue I'm asking about.

I don't know how to explain it clearer. What part of not wanting a power role lynched day 1 is not making sense to you?

[VictorDeAngelo]

@ Victor Why ask for the claim if you weren't at that moment going to swing the hammer? Any time before that only helps scum and hurts Town. That's the issue I'm asking about.

I don't know how to explain it clearer. What part of not wanting a power role lynched day 1 is not making sense to you?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Not much to respond to. Some scumreads I guess:

Scum -
Dritan - Didn't like his early attack over my voting (especially since it only came once others applied pressure), misrepresented me and I'm generally getting a bad vibe off his posting.

Lean Scum
HiddenInTheDark - Really wound me up over the last day or so, seems defensive, seems only interested in focusing on me/Dritan AFAICT
Voidwalker - I get a lurker vibe off him. I didn't like the timing of his vote on Dritan.

Null -
Drone67 - no real post yet.
Espereon - not enough content due to V/LA
JonH - Not seen much I dislike off his posting. A little in the background early on though. I haven't really seen anything that makes me feel good about his alignment on way or the other yet.

Town

Edos - Active, using both his vote and questions to keep the game moving. Open with his reads and thinking. In fact no real qualms with any of his posts.
YurikoJasmine - Genuine attempts at scumhunting, actually kinda agree with the comments on the fighting between me and other players (sorry about that Yuriko). FTR I agree that your English is fine and I have no trouble understanding you

[VictorDeAngelo]

JonH -

Not seen much I dislike off his posting. A little in the background early on though.

I haven't really seen anything that makes me feel good about his alignment on way or the other yet.

@Victor:

I cannot seem to understand these two sentences. Could you explain?

I'll try expanding.

The first sentence is simply saying that reading his posts I've not seen any red flags or picked up on anything that says "Hmm, Jon could be scum".

For the second sentence I was referring to the first few days where I noted Jon had been in the background asking generic questions (i.e. asking Dritan about his experience, you about your languages) and he appeared to be keeping a low profile. That's changed in the last few pages admittadly (even between now and my reads he produced a few more posts, though mostly responding to comments).

Does that help clear things up?

victor voting for dritan, dritan voting for HITD, HITD voting for victor. Interesting.

What do you find interesting here?

[VictorDeAngelo]

@ Victor "Responding to responses" is part of scum hunting, and also the polite thing to do. If people ask for clarification, I'd be remiss in my responsibilities as Town if I just left them confused, plus their responses can add to or change a read. It might be a red flag if that's all someone does.

Remember scum want to appear Town. Look at questions and responses, and try to determine if they're scum hunting or Town tearing down.

That's fine. I didn't really have an issue with the fact you were responding to people it was just something I had noticed with regards to your general activity levels.

Leaning Town: Dritan For his claim of VT, whether it could be false. I believe it's true.

@HITD:

I'm feeling uneasy about how fast you switch you view of thinking Dritan is scum to leaning town just after and just because of his VT claim. Everyone can claim to be a VT. It doesn't really mean much. Unless of course you have other reasons to believe he's not scum? Btw, I'm not sure if you saw it, but he was not the replacement. I am the replacement.

btw, Dritan has gone missing.

Hm. I thought Dritan was a replacement. Anyways, thats besides the point now. Of course everyone can claim VT. I just think he is because the amount of votes he had on him, plus the constant questioning that went on between me and Victor. He was literally 1 Vote away, if not it was 2.

The only thing that made me angry was that he did because Victor said to do it. It seems a little scummy now that I think of it, but Victor doing that and then voting for him because he thinks he's a safe lynch made me think he was scum.

The bolded bit is looking wrong to me. HITD why would Dritan claiming make you angry (you were happy to lynch him at the time)?

As for the second sentence I confused as why your now saying Dritan's scummy for claiming the way he did when your main reason for your lean town read on him til now was "For his claim of VT, whether it could be false. I believe it's true."

@Voidwalker

- /barn Yuki. What did you mean with " sudden switch from Dritan because of a VT Claim"?

I'm moving Voidwalker to lean scum after posts 182 and his reads in post 190. The whole of 182 just doesn't sit right with me but the last line where he says "So, it that good enough of a post to deflect any suspicion on me?" just makes the whole thing sound like an excuse note. As for his reads I don't see why Espe is a town read for leading town (he hasn't unless I missed something) whereas Edos and Yuriko are still null reads and I am lost as why someone would feel need to write "Scummy for lurking, even though that's his play style." about themselves in their own t/s list. Again feels like he's trying to excuse his play.

@victor:

I'm saying that it's interesting, not that it is very much suspicious. I'll have to check the sequence and the content of the vote to decide if it looks suspicious.

I just asked what you found interesting not whether it could be suspicious. Something must have caught your eye to make the statement, could you explain what it was?

[VictorDeAngelo]

@VoidWalker

- Your play is making no sense to me. Why the defeatist tone all of a sudden?

Can you reference some games you've played (town/scum) so we can see this lurking behaviour?

@Victor. It made me angry because he did it only because you told him to. At least that is what it seemed to me. Doing it because someone tells you to do it is scummy. You should be doing it on your own accord. Not because someone told you to do it.

Why is that so scummy? Dritan was at L-1 and a player asks for a claim. You already said you agreed with his lynch so a claim was coming down the line anyway. Your anger makes no sense here.

Also, I don't know if he is town or scum. I can't say for a fact he is town because there is no proof to that he is town.

I find it pretty suspicious you seem to keep wanting to remind everyone how you don't know anything and you have no proof. The only players in this game with any knowledge of who's town or scum are the scumteam. You're trying too hard to look town IMO.

He has only given his word that he is. For right now, I believe him. If someone proves it wrong, then it's proved he wasn't town.

What about his claim was so beleivable, since at this point it seems to be your entire basis for your townread on Dritan.

[VictorDeAngelo]

@Voidwalker - I hadn't fully picked up on the part where the games weren't available. I guess I was hoping there'd be an old game somewhere we could compare. As for the attitude I don't think you need to be defeatist. Your unlikely to be the lynch today and I don't think you should worrying about your lynch just because a little suspicion has been thrown your way.

He was not at l-1 he was at l-2 because you unvoted for him when he was told to out his role.

@HITD - Me unvoting isn't actually relevant. You couldn't have anticipated mine or anyone else's actions after putting him to L-1. As soon as he was at L-1 it was likely at some point someone would request a claim before lynching. So my point stands - your anger over him claiming makes no sense.

I'm not trying to remind everyone. You asked that stupid question which made me repeat that.

And if I asked a stupid question such as "Do you have absolute certainty in everything you do" I can imagine your response would fit. But frankly I don't think either of the questions I asked you were that stupid. I wish to know what you find believable about the claim particularly since you recently said you found the act of him claiming as he did scummy?

[VictorDeAngelo]

So your going to focus on odd fragments and just ignore the actual points of my posts. That's just super. And then you have the nerve to accuse me of grasping air. Since your not talking to me I'll let others ascertain your reasons for your Dritan read. I'm going to bed.

[VictorDeAngelo]

And that's why I'm defeatist. People don't like me much because even when I'm town I'm scum, and I have hard times explaining myself. So, who are we going to lynch? Also, UNVOTE: Dritan

Why don't you tell us who to lynch? You must have at least found one player looking scummier than the others. I say be proactive and present a case.

@Yuriko - i was L -1 and i had to put vote in case before someone decide to hammer me. and i clearly stated my reasons for that vote , didnt I ?

@Victor - like I said i am still quite unsure about Victor . he belives my claim but still wants to lynch me , thats like wtf ??

for the moment

UNVOTE: HiddenInTheDark

So if HITD is no longer a scumread then who is?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Guys read the title - we have until next Monday to lynch.

@SafetyDance

- Do you really not have anything to say or ask after reading the game?

[VictorDeAngelo]

@SafetyDance

- I just wanted to see something I could use to read you - your predecessor basically left an empty thread. I currently have Voidwalker as my #2 scumspect - like Dritan he seems to be holding back right now and I can't see any signs/intererst in solving this game. The defeatist attitude off him didn't feel particularly genuine either. Whose your current top scumspect?

[VictorDeAngelo]

UNVOTE: Chitmap2510

So that makes the half the game replacements at this point. I'll give Chitmap a chance to post and then reassess his role. In the meantime, I'll shift my vote to scumspect #2:

VOTE: Voidwalker

[VictorDeAngelo]

@Mod

- I am V/LA Friday through Sunday (14/3 to 16/3).

[VictorDeAngelo]

Back - will probably catch up tonight or tomorrow.

[VictorDeAngelo]

@Red Coyote

- I liked your predecessor for town and I like the work put into 276 (even if I don't have time to read the spoiler now. I'll probably have to do it after the Day ends at this point). I find myself agreeing most the unspoiled points.

@Espe

- I don't like 280 at all and if you think Void is a mislynch I don't know why your not pointing us towards a better lynch (in fact all you've done today is produce townreads and no conclusive leads).

Which means that either you, Chitmap, Victor, or RC are scum. Also, I have not used the ISO function.

Of the people voting for me:
Jon_h61: Town, he has been leading the town the most, not really getting a scumread on.
VictorDeAngelo:He was scummy at first,but now he seems town, don't know for sure.

Chitmap: Hasn't made a lot of posts, mostly null.
RC: Most definitely Town.

The scummiest person on my wagon is Victor for what he did against Dritan, but with all of these replacements we're just about back to where we were in the beginning, I don't know about chitmap though.

@Yuriko: I'm at L-1 currently.

I find the bold here interesting - both players are replacements and although RC has produced one big post I don't see how RC could have done enough for the strong town read where Chitmap who replaced in the same time and roughly as much remains a solid null. I'm thinking Void is trying to point us towards RC with the strong townread (hence RC is town) while not shining a light on his scumbuddy.

It's hard to say whether or not void is scum. I've seen both sides of being this. Which is why I can't say for sure whether or no he is being serious about being a defeatist or not. I've done this whole defeatist thing when I was scum and I've gotten people to unvote for me. I've done it as a townie and didn't help much but being a burden.

tl:dr HITD has no opinion on the wagon of the day.

I find myself also agreeing with pretty much all Yuki's 292.

@Void

- The more I read your posts about the less I understand your stance regarding me. Is there really no other player in the game you find scummy besides me?

@Jon

- At this point why are you so focused on finding Void's old games. If he says their deleted then they are probably deleted - I can't see scum having much reason to continue lying about them at this point.

And that's all you get until after work. Still support a Void lynch at this point and with the deadline looming if there are any pressing issues try and ask me before tonight as I don't know what kind of access I will have tomorrow.

[VictorDeAngelo]

@Jon

- Fair enough, I missed the context, probably because I've been skimming too much since my V/LA. I will hopefully be caught up by tomorrow.

If Void flips town, and I die during the night then HITD's 313 should be looked at tomorrow.

@Espe

- IC Question - What is ''conf bias" and what is "chainsawing"?

I might be able to post again before I go to bed but don't hold the hammer on my account.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I'll let Espe answer the question since it was him that was asked, but if you hear a confusing term, you can search for it in the Wiki. You'll usually find it there.

I tried the wiki but neither phrase flagged a result.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Responses First (sorry for the delay)

@Chitmap

- Like I said at the time I didn't believe his role is a PR, mostly in response to 83. After mislynching both PRs last game a VT lynch day 1 is a step in the right direction (hence why I wanted a claim before we lynched). I can see how what I said can be misconstrued as saying I believe your town and that's down to me not thinking before I type.

(VictorDeAngelo)
FOS on you from HiddenInTheDark -

If I remove the pro-town actions I see in your posts with Dritan you look a lot scummier

- so if that was down to his playstyle why are you town?

Well yeah, remove anything I've done that looks town and I will look scummier.

Your question is frankly baffling.

In particular can you address the claim request on Dritan with no intent to hammer?

Yes, 143.

In other news:

I refuse to hammer on him. I still believe that Victor is Scum. That is my two cents on this situation. He might not be good at spotting Scum. I suck at trying to decipher a person's post and psychoanalyze every damn word they say. I take what is blatantly in front of me. You take a person who played defeated style and you still push for his lynch even though he is still playing this game unlike the ones who got in this game and got replaced. The fact that every person in this game refuses to look at what is clearly in front of you a person who basically screamed scum with that one sentence he stated plus the vote/unvote thing he did.

I FOS every single person on Void, especially Jon if he comes up Town. You better Pray he is Scum.

This whole post seemed too knowing that Void what flip town. Those no analyse or thought given to what would happen if VW flipped scum yet HITD is ready to FoS the entire wagon when VW flipped town (with Jon ready and waiting for the vote). Yet looking at HITD's reads in 200 shows that VW was only a null read and nothing in his subsequent posting suggest he had changed his mind.
Even if HITD is reading me as scum he has no reason to believe VW would flip town at the end of yesterday.

VOTE: HITD

[VictorDeAngelo]

@HITD - Those first two sentences pretty much sum up why I'm voting you. You didn't try to prevent the mislynch but you made a lot of effort to establish that you were not on the wagon. And I don't get the whole, 'this is what I think but I have no proof nor am I building a case so just accept it' attitude from you.

Anyway I don't want to say much more about yesterday until others catch, one in particular needs to say a lot more.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Victor your vote in 366 does

not

count due to lack of bolding. Please bold or use the vote tag if you intend it as vote, not commentary.

VOTE: HiddenInTheDark

All good.

@Matti - Aggression is just my playstyle I guess. I don't believe you can catch scum by sitting back and hoping for them to out themselves. I don't mind people being put off by the way I play, but I would say your better reading players based on their actions rather than their playstyles. As for your question you still have me confused. If I'm null then reread me, or see what I do next. Other than telling you to use the iso button I don't see what you could be expecting me to say. And if you're just looking for a way to attack me over my playstyle then just come out and do and stop beating around the bush.

@Espe - Looking at the final votecount myself. Can you explain why you were voting for RedCoyote?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Ok, I can see that philosophy working for you, fine - if you think I'm solely reading players based on their playstyles then you are mistaken. Is a playstyle a useful way of getting information in addition to other sources - for me yes of course it is - do you not think so? How we each weight the importance of that information is down to the individual.

I'm not trying to imply you solely reading based on playstyles, merely putting forward the point that playstyles are often not alignment indicative (unless player x shifts his or her playstyle based on his or her role). I feel that there is plenty of information in this read underneath my playstyle (my reads, my analyse, my voting/pushes) for players to read and determine whether they think I'm town or not.

I'm not looking to attack - I'm trying to put my reasoning down in these posts and see if it chimes with anyone. I noticed you being aggressive. I said I didn't like it. I pointed out what I believe to be the down side of that type of attitude. I believe that is just your playstyle from looking at another game.

Where do you feel I'm going to go from there in attacking you? It serves no purpose to do so - you have your position and play, which I fully support - it IS your choice to play however you like. I don't have to like it and I've posted as much to make sure that anyone going through my reads understands this and can take account of it, or not. I feel this is useful to us to limit emotional bias in reads and isn't an attack on your playstyle.

I'm happy for you to explain why it IS an attack on your playstyle and to take the discussion forward from there.

I guess I'm trying to work out what your looking to achieve from this discussion in the first place. I'd rather not get into another slap fight this game and at this point each question feels slightly pointless. If the emotion is too much so be it but I am happy to lay out my position on players again if that will help you get the read on me you desire. But I'm not going to run around trying to defend my playstyle or convince to put aside any dislikes you have of the way I play.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Some thoughts -

@ Espeonage

- Post some thoughts already. Your not a replacement and I am trouble pinning down one scumread other than Edos/RC (and I still don't understand why). Can you produce a t/s list with reasoning in your next post?

Matti's final question of 393 has the whiff of protecting HITD. 396 also looks bad.

@HighShroom

- I want to see some thoughts on other players in the game. What is your current read on Jon/Yuriko?

Jon's 401 saved me a ton of trouble in responding to HITD. A few points:

@HITD

- The continued "I don't know anything for certain" and "I have no evidence so don't hold me accountable for any reads" is annoying me. Your Vote/FoS is you saying I'm scum. The fact you refused to go after anyone else yesterday because of how 'certain' you were I was scum also pretty says I should be confscum in your eyes. You still haven't given any real reasons for why you were adamant Void shouldn't have been lynched - despite you basically saying you wanted nothing to do with the wagon and the first two people pushing the wagon must be scum.

Also HITD, what is your current read on Espeonage? With reasons please.

[VictorDeAngelo]

@Victor Hold me accountable for my posts. I don't care if you or anyone else does.

I have been holding you accountable for your posting all game. If that doesn't concern you then fine. But you should be well aware but that voting is in relation to your views or positions.

How do you expect me to be certain of things? If I said that I was certain, I'd be lying to you. I have no reason why he shouldn't have been lynched just threw something out and see what stuck.

Let's take the whole certainty issue off the table since that seems to be in the way of getting a real response. What reasons did you have yesterDay to beleive that Void was a bad wagon and why did you feel that the wagon had to have scum on it if VW flipped town, before knowing his alignment.

I don't know what to think of Espe. He posts, somewhat. He gives his reads on people and has a couple posts and then hides away. It's a bit scummy because he lurking worse than what Void was doing.

I was kinda hoping for something a little more expansive but I guess I'll take a lean scum due to lurkiness. Either way you don't seem to have had a town read on Void, or a town read on Espe, so why would it be scummy for Jon to go after these two players yesterday. He made it clear who he wanted to lynch and why. So with regards to Jon can you tell me:

Do you believe any parts of his push on VW respresent scummy bahaviour?
Do you believe any of his interactions with Espeonage show scumminess?

Some thoughts -

Matti's final question of 393 has the whiff of protecting HITD.

Assuming you are referring to question 3) final part "Will he be useful in the later parts of the game" ? and not "Do you like playing scum or town?" - If so then my thinking here is that even if I accept he is town (and I'm not sold on that - more later) then I'm not convinced he is an asset later in the game - perhaps he will have more information to work with then but I'm not sure - I'd rather have someone who can put a set of reasons together that help me understand their thinking rather than "I have some evidence I can't show you" or "because I do". I was wondering if HighShroomish thought similarly - hence the question.

If you are referring to another question - please be more specific and I'll get back everyone on that.

I was mainly referring to the whole thing, i.e. (if I steal Jon's technique for a post)

3)

1

HiddenInTheDark, while his play isn't perfect town play, still feels like he is town motivated no matter how scummy and uncomfortable I feel with bits of his explanations. I don't like the way he effectively responds with "Well that just the way it is - sorry". I'd love to see more explanation - but it isn't there.

2

So if you take out the bad explanations - what do you make of the rest of his play, is he scumhunting? does his interaction with other players make you feel town or scum about him?

3

Will he be useful to town in the later parts of the game?

1 - This sentence seems to suggest that however scummy HITD is we should look past it and see town motivations, laying out your position.
2 - Another example of selective reading from you. This time we are ignoring the scummy posting of HITD (although there's more than just the bad explanations IMO) and telling HS to focus only on the townier looking play.
3 - The will he be useful seems to suggest you think he should be kept around, regardless of what your saying now.

396 also looks bad.

Assuming that you mean looks scummy? I'm asking a player I consider very town a question about his thinking on you. I'm even going so far as to make sure he understands he isn't under pressure to reveal his specific info/knowledge but attempt to learn a bit more about what sort of knowledge it is - and therefore by default lean a bit more about you. If he is reading you town and you aren't then I can see why you've had such a strong reaction to this. You are normally more organised in pointing out the things you see as bad play or flaws - simply "looks bad" is a bit of a aberration it feels. Would you care to go into more detail on how this post "looks bad" from your point of view?

So your saying there was no pressure for Jon to explain what he saw but yet you describe his actions as the scummiest thing he has done all game and then ask "Is there any explanation you've got short of actually giving your reasons?" which let's be frank is essentially asking him to explain his reasons.

Simply put I expect a town player to either accept Jon's reasons for now (especially since he's both an SE and your strongest townread) or openly challenge him to explain fully if you found his post questionable (which 396 looks like you were saying although your back-pedalling now).

I'll let you get back to us all on that - but taking your premise a little further "that I am scummy" due to 396 - then what exactly am I doing in this post as scum - sucking up to jon_h61 for town cred? having some sort of scum conversation? Naturally I don't see it, but I'm happy to discuss what you think is happening to bust a few myths and get us moving forward.

If your scum, I think your looking to find precisely why Jon is townreading me so you can assertain if I'm a viable mislynch or not. I don't know why you think anyone could interpret a post like that as sucking for town cred or some sort of scum conversation so I'll assume your trying to be facetious.

Hint - the answer to what I'm doing is - interacting with a player who just indicated they read one of my nullish reads as more town - to find out why they do and to try and help me form stronger reads

Thought I'd remove the spoiler tags here since this is hardly worth hiding. I didn't realise I was such a nullish read of yours. The whole "why should I read as town" suggested I was appearing scummy.

Also HITD, what is your current read on Espeonage? With reasons please.

Also very interested in this - doubt we'll get anything though.

Why do you doubt this?

And that should answer your 404 victor.

He asked you about jon_h61 and YurikoJasmine. So I don't believe it's answered. Stop shying away from giving information or interacting - if you are town then this should be a relatively straightforward thing to do.

/barn

Regarding parallelism- not a game with him. I would constantly be talking to him with random subjects the whole game more than likely. It's a game I read with another new scum. Please don't make me link it. I read like 20 games on here before I joined, and I have no clue which ones had what in them. Heck I don't even remember 90% of the names...

Ok, more words, thanks. So your vote right now is on HiddenInTheDark - who, in my view, seems scummiest when he has gut reads he can't back up - or won't. You then proceed to do the same thing in the quote above. In response to a question about him.

Either you are being lazy, which I can allow but I don't think helps us, and are using the HiddenInTheDark position (by some form of monkey-see monkey-do) which hasn't got him lynched yet - or you are just blustering and this is all cobblers.

To use a new term I've learnt, this looks a lot like chainsawing of HITD to me. You've assumed HS reasons for voting HITD, just to paint him as hyprocritical.

To probe slightly further - what you are saying is that you can remember clearly reading another game on here before you joined this site (Dec 15th 2013) and that this memory was jogged when you reviewed HiddenInTheDark's play after replacing into this game (mid March 2014). You don't remember the game, the names of the players (was it definately newbie scum?), and don't seem to want to link it, yet you are convinced this is newbie scum play that you've seen before in the game you read previously. I believe the phrase you used was "very much so" in describing how close to newbie scum play you felt HiddenInTheDark's play was - not something you do when unsure of yourself.

So your telling me if a player can't immediately link up their games it must be scummy

Bravo - I applaud this analysis I think this gives us a solid position to go forward, certainly for you, and perhaps for the rest of us - now, you know what's coming next don't you, all you have to do is - link the game and highlight the player. and their playstyle that runs parallel to HiddenInTheDark's play please.

Either do that or I call cobblers on the whole response and am even happier with my vote being on you.

So now the entirety of the case on HITD rests the possibility of linking a game. And in the event HS is unable to do that we can just dismiss HITD as town. How convenient.

(VictorDeAngelo)

I can see where you are going with your next post delighting in the "Matti white knighting HiddenInTheDark" scenario. Take that view by all means :

Nice anticipation. But let me correct you - I don't beleive your defending HITD because your white knighting him (because that would imply HITD is town).

(Everyone)

HighShroomish jumps on HiddenInTheDarks bandwagon very quickly after he joins the game.

The bandwagon in question being my solitary vote...

He has pretty limited support for this line of reasoning (without mirroring your/VictorDeAngelo's views).

I'll let HS respond to this himself.

His actions mimic some of those of HiddenInTheDark that I say make HiddenInTheDark look scummier.

That

you

say makes HITD look scummier.

Are you/VictorDeAngelo tunnelling on HiddenInTheDark now to the detriment of other cases?

Do you really think I'm tunneling Matti?

VictorDeAngelo has voted for HighShroomish's slot before - has his recent play persuaded you he is not worth a vote?

I have one vote, and right now I am very happy with the player it's on.

I'm prepared to be talked around about HiddenInTheDark as town but feelings and gut won't do it.

Sure let's all convince Matti, that one of his strongest townreads is town, won't that be a great use of our time.

Let me just say where my current thinking is:

I have had suspicions of HITD all game but it was the post where he refused to support the Void wagon that got me thinking two things. One, if VW was town HITD was scum (explained earlier) and two, if VW was town, HITD might be scumbuddies with someone not on the VW wagon. Let's pull up that end of day votecount:

Final Vote Count of Day One:

Voidwalker1234 - 5 (jon_h61, VictorDeAngelo, RedCoyote, chitmap2510, YurikoJasmine)

VictorDeAngelo - 2 (HiddenInTheDark, Voidwalker1234)
RedCoyote - 1 (Espeonage)

Not Voting - 1 (Matti)

That left two options. A HITD-Espe scumteam or a HITD-Matti scumteam. I was leaning towards the first pair until recently but his recent posting is starting to make me think that it's Matti/HITD thats our scumteam. Matti looks keen to take pressure away from HITD and is defending him hard. That said I'm not getting a lot of town vibes off Espe either.

So yeah, between those three players we have our scumteam.

[VictorDeAngelo]

HITD, reasons are what I stated. I don't know if your not reading my posts of trying to misrep me here.

[VictorDeAngelo]

@Victor Okay, I'm on my laptop now. Void seemed scummy to me at first and I won't deny that because he was lurking and that is an automatic scum tell. Even though he was called out on it and explained himself, he did start talking more and participating so the only real thing that made him scummy was thrown out and had no merit to vote for him, except "being a defeatist". Espe has been lurking since the beginning of the game, came out of the shadows and said some, then went back into the shadows.

Lurking + Poor t/s list + self conscious + holding off voting players = Void looking scummy. I'll agree that Espe has a lot of these points going for him as well. Still Void was lynched for more than just being defeatist and lurky and I reject the idea that the case against him had no merit.

I now see the reasoning behind Jon's reasoning behind Espe and wanting to put a vote on him. Also, tbh, the Espe thing was a stretch and was a very weak offense in my book. My main thing was just the whole VW issue and I tunneled in on the will I be willing to at least vote Espe and was just weird but makes sense now.

So are you saying you no longer believe Jon is scum?

Now, I just think that with the VW bandwagon that he just in general also in 289 It seems a bit ironic that he lays out the if VW turns up town that scum has already voted for him and this is after he's already placed a vote on him. Coincidence? Maybe. But, it's just funny to me. It also sounds like a lot of his basis was surrounded by his previous, deleted games as well as when his son used some tactic. So he is mixing a previous game with this current game to influence his vote on VW.

I'm not really understanding the point you're trying to make here.

I see some hinting of it. But, if those are just your reasoning for Matti and I be best scum buddies, it looks like a "You are reading him as town, he must be your buddy".

Less "He's reading you as town" and more "He's defending you in a not very town looking fashion".

Also, you say you got some non-townie vibes from Espe. Care to explain what those are?

Espeonage has been lurking, coy on reads, showing little signs of scumhunting and reminding me a lot of a scum!IC I had in my last game who wasn't overly present.

I'm not trying to misrep your post and was trying to grasp it on my phone which I missed some things.

In future maybe wait until you have read someone's points before questioning them then. It's not like we're pressed for time right now.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Not much is happening right now.

Yes, and

unvote Jon

and also with the thought of it, I can see the reasoning for wanting to do a vote on Espe so I will put my vote on him instead.

vote Espe

@Jon

- What is your opinion on this shift of vote?

I like HighShrooms 419.

@Yuriko

- Who is your current top scumread(s)? If you have time, please give reasoning.

Still waiting on Espeonage to start playing again.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Another replacement. Let's see what he does with a slot I don't like...

goodmornings posting does nothing to alleviate any doubts in the role. His two townclears (Matti/Dritan) feel pretty artificial. As for the PoE I doubt we're looking at a Jon/HITD scumteam at this point (since I am somewhat sceptical that HITD would have thrown so much pressure towards Jon at the start of Day when I was such an easier target) so his PoE doesn't really hold. He also seems to ignored Jon calls to expand on his reads to make his points clearer - yet he responded to most of the rest albeit in a brief fashion.

@Jon

- Obviously I disagree over the town v town but what struck me with the vote is that he shifted it onto Espe when he seemed to want to focus on finding scum on the Void wagon. Perhaps my comments on Espe helped persuade him but deep down I expected HITD to shift his onto me when he stopped suspecting you and that's what took me aback. I don't know, it looked odd but perhaps it is town second guessing like you said.

[VictorDeAngelo]

His two townclears (Matti/Dritan) feel pretty artificial.

In what way? And before you ask, I'm 100% certain of Matti and 98% of Shroomy.

Firstly the percentages make it feel more artificial :p - How can you be 2% less sure on Shroomy.

As for my original point you have towncleared two players you have been suspicious this game and not given any good reasoning.

(since I am somewhat sceptical that HITD would have thrown so much pressure towards Jon at the start of Day when I was such an easier target)

Why do you not think HITD could have bussed? jon didn't look likely to be lynched today (and probably still doesn't, but one never knows), and if HITD goes and flips Scum, then that would make jon look rather clear.

Possible but it only really works if either Jon or HITD thought they were likely to be the lynch today. Otherwise I see scum looking for another mislynch target.

He also seems to ignored Jon calls to expand on his reads to make his points clearer - yet he responded to most of the rest albeit in a brief fashion.

Quote this for me.

You bit where you didn't expand your reasonings. Sure

@Victor To be frankly honest, my only reason of me thinking of you being scum was the posts I've spoken about. More than likely you could have meant it another way (or is fooling everyone) and you look like you are scum hunting. While you are looking townish, you are still in the darker part only because you have this...feeling but it has no explanation which is why I'm not voting you. Everyone seems to think those posts were worded wrong or base no merit so I'm looking at other people and putting pressure on them.

So what are your current feelings on the Voidwalker wagon? Do you think there's scum there, and if so who?

IC-Question:

How does a roleblocker work with the bullet proof townie? (any experienced player can answer)

[VictorDeAngelo]

@HITD - I understand your t/s list in 447 but if HighShroom is your top scumread why are you voting GM?

You think that Jon was trying to out the RB'er in the thought that he would out himself for the next night lynch? Even though the RB'er is still useful as in blocking a night kill from happening.

Uh... what? The RB is a Scum role.

HITD confirmed new.

are you suggesting that jon_h61 seems to state there IS a RB in play?

Presupposes scum knowledge?

Yes.

There's a fifty percent chance of a RB in play from the matrix6 setup. If we don't have a BP townie, the point becomes null though.

His two townclears (Matti/Dritan) feel pretty artificial.

In what way? And before you ask, I'm 100% certain of Matti and 98% of Shroomy.

Firstly the percentages make it feel more artificial :p - How can you be 2% less sure on Shroomy.

As for my original point you have towncleared two players you have been suspicious this game and not given any good reasoning.

1. The percentages are merely there to exaggerate my point: I am certain of Matti and very nearly so of Shroomy at this point.

2. I have towncleared two players. What would my motivation be for doing this as Scum?

Let's not tangent. Instead let's have you explain your reasons for clearing these two players. Explain what they did which was so obviously townie in your eyes.

(since I am somewhat sceptical that HITD would have thrown so much pressure towards Jon at the start of Day when I was such an easier target)

Why do you not think HITD could have bussed? jon didn't look likely to be lynched today (and probably still doesn't, but one never knows), and if HITD goes and flips Scum, then that would make jon look rather clear.

Possible but it only really works if either Jon or HITD thought they were likely to be the lynch today. Otherwise I see scum looking for another mislynch target.

Plenty of time to look for other mislynches after a distancing bus.

I have my opinion, you have yours. I just don't get any scumbuddy vibes off their interactions. If I'm wrong your gonna need to present some actual evidence.

You bit where you didn't expand your reasonings. Sure

That was funny, but unhelpful. If it's really a point of concern for you then why aren't you more interested in getting it cleared up?

You asked a silly question, you get a silly answer. How about instead of all the couterattacking you clear up your own mess by actually expanding your reasoning?

IC-Question:

How does a roleblocker work with the bullet proof townie? (any experienced player can answer)

The bulletproof townie doesn't have an active role, but a passive one. Since being bulletproof doesn't count as an action, the RB has no effect.[/quote]

Thanks.

I find myself agreeing with Jon's 456.

HITD's 457 looks like a very townie question.

I really want to hear from Yuriko before the day ends.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Also i had it on espe when it was changed to GM. It is not based on what gm had said at first but people are bringing up good points on him which is why I've never unvoted him. i also said he was too new because he just came in so he is a 50 50 choice to me.

OK I see why you voted originally, but clear this up for me. With the deadline approaching do you prefer a gm lynch over a HighShroomish lynch toDay?

IC_question: What does AtF mean?

Matti's slot was once occupied by Safety, whom I have never read wrong. I realize there's a first time for everything, but this isn't it.
Shroomy was once Dritan, whose VT claim was so obv-newbTown that I would be astonished if he was Scum.

Safety made 6 posts and half barely contained any content. I remain sceptical that you could know a player that well to townclear him. I dislike how after repeated calls you still don't highlight anything Safety did to make such a strong townread and instead say trust me.
The reasoning for HS is fairly weak - though at this point I trust HS slot a little more than I trust Matti's slot.

That was funny, but unhelpful. If it's really a point of concern for you then why aren't you more interested in getting it cleared up?

You asked a silly question, you get a silly answer. How about instead of all the couterattacking you clear up your own mess by actually expanding your reasoning?

Because I'm not seeing where things were unsatisfactorily explained, and if you think that I didn't make myself clear enough all you have to do is tell me. I'm not psychic. I can't read your mind to see what you have problems with.

The response was originally barning what Jon said in 428. You've had a lot of back and forth with Jon but you still haven't presented any real case around his posting. That said it's reasonably moot since I won't be voting Jon toDay (and you seem convinced that either me or HITD are Jon's scumbuddy so that's hardly gonna surprise you).

Also, thanks to Shroomy I AM AT L-1. DON'T GO LYNCHING ME WILLY-NILLY.

Lol. Your lynch is definately not willy-nilly.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Quick Post before work.

I won't be voting Jon today unless something exceptional happens. I'm not seeing the case on him right now. Yuriko is my other strong townread.
HS role seems to be getting townier with each replacement. I'm not sold on HS being town but I don't want to lynch him today either.

That leaves three. I'm still willing to lynch any of those three today.
Matti has been quiet over the last few days but I haven't like his content from the start of the day (something feels off about his responses).
Goodmorning is looking like the lynch of the day. I'm preferring her posting over Espe but not really sure why she is going after Jon so hard. I could see her being scum with either Matti/HS (the townclears seem too certain) or if possibly HITD (with her flip imminent I am wondering if these two are distancing).
HITD is around but keeping a lower profile than I remember. That said the posting isn't looking scummy. I don't know if I'm confbiasing on this slot or whether I have cracked the game. I'm leaving my vote for now here since this is my prefferred lynch but I will shift nearly the deadline to either Matti or GM if we need a majority on either.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Also it would be a good idea for people to post anything they need to say

before

the days ends before we reach the last 24 hours. Let's not have any more trouble with timezones.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Great time for walls guys, with less than a day to the deadline. I'll do what I can before I head out...

First HITD. The more I think about it the less I like his vote on GM. A quick ISO and I can't find any reasons other than:
1) I voted for Espe and then he changed person and never bothered to unvote.
2) He's voting me so I should be voting him.

Coupled with what I can describe as a vague notion that GM could be scum.

Moving on:

not really sure why she is going after Jon so hard.

Because he's Scum.

I'm not entirely unwilling to compromise on HITD.

Well I'm unwilling to consider a Jon vote at this stage. I'll lock in my vote at the end of this post...

I'm sorry but I'm not sure I can keep up with all the posts I've missed.

mod: please replace me.

look forward to playing another game with you guys in the future!
and I'll be following the post when I have time. See you endgame.

OOG: I hope to play with you again soon Yuki.

YukiroJasmine has been replaced by neil1113, who has declined the extension of time. Therefore deadline stands for tomorrow night ((expired on 2014-04-04 23:59:59)).
[/i]

Why did you turn down the extension.

Oh no! Reserving judgement on Yuriko's replacement.

Another aggressive, fellow wall warrior. Hopefully, we don't end up drowning out the rest of the players in the game.

I'm sorry to see Yuriko go, but welcome neil.

Why are you reserving judgement here?

Nothing at all can be gained from them, but they are decent in size.

Contrast this with post 419 where you are actually getting a "metric crapton" of info out of me. So something CAN be gained from them? Just not something positive?

I can see you have a view I'm scum, fine, but you seem to let it colour your entire view.
"Nothing at all can be gained from them" It's just not true is it. Do you really believe that there is nothing of any use in any of my posts?

post 519 - "some little stuff here and there"

Actually look - you do think there is "some little stuff" in them. But maybe I'm taking that out of context - "all of you posts are mostly fluff" if they are MOSTLY fluff then the remainder must be non-fluff which I'd say is of more use than "Nothing at all can be gained from them" which i'd assume to be ALL fluff.

I would define fluff as padding out a single point over six lines. Hey look your doing it here.

Ok so it's a little childish to reply like this, sorry, but I'm pointing out that you have tainted or biased the language in your posts to suit your end which is to lynch me. I'm comfortable being the lynch based on reason and others understanding your position but this emotive language doesn't seem like town play. It smells like scum pushing for a lynch.

This is ridiculous. HS points are clear, those no manipulation, no careful phrasing. This sort of counterattack is scummy.

I'll come back to points 2 and 3 in HS responses...

a) There was no HITD band wagon.

"You are right - there wasn't and I made a linguistic error in referring to it as such. There was only one vote cast on him at the time, and no other votes.

You DID vote HITD straight away with limited explanation which I found frustrating as a new player. You also joined the only existing vote - I'm led to understand that scum is found in the middle of voting patterns but I'm not 100% sure of how sound that is."

Where did you pick this fact up from out of interest?

b) He asks me to take out all the bad stuff about HITD then tell him what I think about HITD.
That is flat out wrong.

That is not how you play this game.

If someone had a huge scum slip, you wouldn't just ignore it.

Looking at that element -

This whole statement is clear enough. Why cut it up....

"b) He asks me to take out all the bad stuff about HITD then tell him what I think about HITD.

Actually I asked you to take out the bad explanations and consider rest of of his play - I named scumhunting and interaction with other players particularly.

I'm using a filter to cut out one element of a player's play and considering the others seperately to see if they feel as scummy. "

That's not the response you gave me at the time.

"That is flat out wrong. "

Well now you are just making statements telling me how to play mafia. I guess I shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth though - if my method which I'd arrived at a whole two days earlier meets with such disapproval from you, what is "right"?

Taking a statement out context like this is just trying to change the narrative.

"If someone had a huge scum slip, you wouldn't just ignore it. "

Correct - If I felt I'd spotted a scumslip or something very obviously scummy I'd post about it. In fact I did. I thought your slot looked scummy. I may be wrong, but I think I'm right so I posted.

Deflection!

"And then Matti proceeds to agree with me that you can't separate a player from his posts. WHAT THE FUCK."

At no point do I ask you to separate the player from the posts.

Posts are all we have to consider a view on a player. I was asking you to take each element of his play that I outlined and consider them individually and independant of what you seem to think is a scum-tell way of playing in 389 - a tool I thought possibly useful to prevent a newb town making one mistake and being mislynched.

I want to literally use your own posts against you here.

3) As far as I can tell, in his 409, he thinks I'm tunneling HITD. I asked him one question. I'm tunneling on Matti more than HITD, and I'm not even tunneling!

I did not mean to imply you were tunnelling - it was directed to VictorDeAngelo - it was a poorly worded post. The comments were to everyone so I feel it's clear that the (you) in question wasn't HighShroomish.

I would also like to refute any claims I am tunneling in this game.

4) This should sum up another part of his 409 decently as well-
You memory better be perfect as hell or you are definitely scum.

I'm sorry this doesn't make sense to me - please expand on it. In particular explain how my memory has anything to do with me being scum. If I remember or forget something how does that make me scum?
Again you are using very emotive language to push your point home - town players with a solid point will surely win out and won't need to resort to this kind of play?

Where's all this emotive language. I mean actually bold what's unfair here, cause all I see is a valid point!

"And then poof. He just disappears. "

Yes I did not post for 3 days. Not sure if that is defined as disappearing - you didn't seem bothered until now - But there wasn't a poof.

Your right there was no literal poof. I wanna come up with a clever rhyme in the style of "If the glove don't fit you must acquit" but my mind is drawing blank.
My mental adequacies aside, this is a desperate defence for lurking if I ever saw one.

I just previewed this post and OMG it's got so much more....

"Then he comes back with the same thing he was doing when he first came in. He just talks. He's not actually doing anything. "

I'm genuinely struggling to see what more I can do, I'm posting, you say it yourself "he talks" but you don't think I'm doing anything. What in the name of all that is yellow and rubbery can I do to do more?

I'm guessing the answer is scumhunt....is it scumhunt......

"He couldn't get votes on me, and he gave up. "

Not true - I wasn't posting for 3 days. That isn't giving up is it? I'm still here and playing, and posting, and my vote was and still is on you. After I reviewed you still seemed the scummiest player.

Then present a case. A good one, cause you won't have my vote and I'm done for the day after this monster....

"After only 4 posts of interaction and trying to paint me as scum."

I'm not trying to paint you as scum and I feel this is key to the way we both look at this game.
I feel you are scum for the reasons stated - often not stated very well - by me.
My aim is to put my reasoning out there and see if others agree - if so we can move towards a lynch and more info.
If not then if I am persuaded by other player's reasons for their scumspects then I'll change my vote and aim to proceed that way.

This actually seems earnest.

Where I feel you are aiming is by force of character and language to make people think you are so certain you can't be wrong. You've been super-certain in this way 3 times - HiddenInTheDark, goodmorning, and me - we can't all be scum - fact. Strong language, no matter how many swear words you put in it, doesn't make your case any stronger. My point being that by using such strong language I think your case actually looks weaker. Good cases don't need strong language.

I think your mistaking me reads with HS's but whatever.

"And he goes with the flow, except that he isn't changing his read on me"

So exactly how am I going with the flow? By being the only player voting for you? By making you be the only player voting for me? This sentence makes no sense to me - could you please explain [2] it further?
You are spot on about me not posting for 3 days but some of your points seem contradictory I'm going with the flow, except....Doesn't work for me - but I'm biased.

I agree that HS statement doesn't seem to make sense.

", which he could hardly do now without drawing suspicion. "

I totally disagree. I think you can change reads anytime based on posts and interactions.
Simply swapping votes with little to no reason would DEFINATELY draw suspicion. I'm not swapping MY vote.[/spoiler]

Wait did you literally cut a sentence in half. Because we can't handle a line with like twenty words.
Main point though, look how self aware the second line it.

HighShroomish - Interaction, this is great. And what I've wanted with you from the start. This is more interaction than I felt you've given all game. For me the more the interaction the more town - but what do I know.

Not always true, but not scummy.

I feel that you joined the game and then immediately joined the only existing vote on a player with limited explanation.

Hey ma, look at me I'm a wagon.

You responded to initial questions from me with a joke response and a refusal to offer information on your own slot. This got me OMGUSing you - gotta be fair and state that.

Why would a player need to read his own slot. WHY?!?!?

You cite HiddenInTheDarks playstyle as a newb scum tell from another game. I ask you to provide backup which you don't.

I already talked about this.

I'm asking for some evidence which could bring me on board with your scum read that is within your power to present and you are choosing not to.

Case is out there, go look.

So I guess you are just lazy or feel you don't need to convince me of your case and get my vote - ok.

Coming from the guy who been defending HITD like a champ.

"And I reccommend you don't doubt my memory. I don't take notes for a reason." you say in 419

What - you're telling me to just believe you when you say you remember another game where, for instance, someone played like me so I must be scum - don't you dare doubt my memory! I think this game you are supposed to doubt things - it's you that brought your memory into this.

What does you taking notes, or not, have to do with HiddenInTheDark being scum? - Nothing.

Fluff.

What does this have to do with you having a convincing scum read without presenting the damning evidence you talked about? - Everything

You followed VictorDeAngelo in voting on HiddenInTheDark at the start - I think this is HighShroomish looking for an easy vote.

You put nothing out about any player unless responding to questions - this doesn't seem pro town to me but could be playstyle I guess.

Repeating himself.

You seem convinced HiddenInTheDark is scum following VictorDeAngelo's vote - then echo jon_h61's thinking on goodmorning and move your vote there from HiddenInTheDark. I'd assume therefore that they are scum partners because nobody has refuted the case (unproven despite evidence available and asked for) about HiddenInTheDark. Or is goodmorning the easier lynch now?

Ok, another good point. That's like two per wall.

442 - You have one scum read on jon_h61 or goodmorning from the townclears on you. The two players who have been interacting the most and there was a high likelihood of today's lynch coming from that pair. Setting yourself up for the easy vote again in my view.

Huh?

Then we have 3 posts in 40 minutes - after jon_h61 highlights that we are near to deadline and you haven't produced anything from this crap-ton of info you've been getting yet we get:-

The theatrical setup of 517 and 518 lead through to your thoughts on me in 519 that I addressed above - the other players can read them and decide.

What?

The summary is -
Post 519 contained emotional language, some misunderstandings from you, some scratching around from you, some points I completely agree with, and some points I'd like further explained.

You've found a player in me who's clearly not town read you before - and who has not posted for 3 days - and convinced yourself I'm scum. I think if you believed you had a solid case you wouldn't need all the theatre and pointed language to be clear about how I've slipped if I was scum.

I'm going to allow myself a little licence here and be glad that you've done independant work and actually found a player nobody else thought was scum and pushed a move on them - oh but wait no, you just followed on the coat tails of VictorDeAngelo (513), again, and took the hint from jon_h61 in 498.

I credit you with seeing how the wind blows very well but I think you are playing the game of going with the wind rather than thinking for yourself.


Now if you can remove my OMGUS of HighShroomish which I freely admit is an element here - then I still feel he has scum elements - I'd like to know what you all think.

My vote stays - convince me it should be elsewhere I don't think HiddenInTheDark is scum.

I think I must have commented on all this.

If you thought Matti's was big, well, be prepared...

Sure, I have nowhere else to be.... oh wait I do

You know what Matti's response looks fine. I admit I skimmed it.

Seeing as the deadline is in 11 hours and I'll be busy for most of those 11 hours, I don't have as much time to do an analysis as I'd like, but with all the replacements this game has had and how long the days probably seem prolonged, I didn't want to do that to you guys by asking for a longer extension so I denied it, and hoped that I could read up fast enough to have my own reads.

And well... I did.

First, let me state the usual: the entire game was difficult to read, cuz of replacements, blah blah... you know the drill.
Second, allow me to congratulate Hidden, Jon, and Victor for being the only non-replacement needed people in this game.
Third, after finally figuring out who's who (and having to go back and erase my reads on Yuriko, realizing finally that I replaced her, which makes me sad... she'd have been a joy to play with...) I think I have my reads set.

ALL RIGHT

So I just read the game. And it was weird. I couldn't keep half the replacements straight. But let me try anyway.

HighShroomish (replaced Dritan; chitmap2510) - This guy is VT Town. He already claimed, and you don't lie in Mafia. Right?
HiddenInTheDark - Honestly, I started out town-reading him hard. But around page 15 my doubts started forming, and by page 20 I was scum reading him hard. I'm trying not to use confbias here, so I'm going to have to stick with my gut on his playing style, and read him as scum.
jon_h61 - Jon is Jon. Same Jon I played with before, and I can already see the tunneling happening in his posts toward others. This should be delightful. P.S. Hi Jon.
Matti (replaced Drone67; SafetyDance) - I couldn't read Drone, Safety read town, and Matti seems town-oriented, however sometimes misled he might be. He's done things that read scummy and towny to me, and considering my reads already, I think I'd prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt right now. Null leaning town.
VictorDeAngelo - Seems to have a contradicting play style, and seems to be shifty in his posts. I'm also WIFOMing myself to death, because if he was scum, it would make sense not to replace out... I'd say scum.
Goodmorning - Looks Town to me, based on the fact that she seems to be genuinely scum hunting and presenting ideas that would actually help the town, rather than distract them.

Now comes the confusing part, as I do a VCA as of late, and realize that if I'm right about the scum team being between Victor and Hidden, then one of them are unnecessarily bussing the other and that's absolutely terrible scum play. So if I am right, then I would have to say they are both terrible scum players, which is an insult i'm not ready to dish out, nor am I comfortable with that assessment without meta to back it up. Therefore, I'll have to pick the one I think is more scum-aligned...

VOTE: HiddenInTheDark

I won't be voting Yuki's slot today, but I want Neill to expand on his thought process.

That said he's voting with me. I am swinging back HITD + Matti and I'm locking my vote where it is. I will ranting tomorrow/post game about letting Days go to deadlines like this.

Anyway - I am outta here. I will be getting drunk and forgetting this game so my vote is not changing. I will check tomorrow and see who we lynched. I'm more than a little concerned that no one is beyond L-2 with hours to go but my RL kinda comes first.

Goodnight and godbless.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Well my top scumread just flipped town Jon, so I need to give this game a reread. I don't like gm's slot or Matti's slot right now, but I want a solid reread before I commit to anything.

@Jon - Why does Neil's NK being smart point to GM specifically?

[VictorDeAngelo]

New Stuff:

I would love it if you were to die, but between you and me we both know it's far more likely to be neil.

Why would I say this and then kill neil anyway?

Also, yes, I am familiar with neil. No, I probably wouldn't kill

the one person who apparently believed I was Town

over someone heavily suspecting me like jon, and if anyone wants to continue to speculate on the NK then they need to stop it because WIFOM is only beneficial to Scum. (OH HEY LOOK WHO BROUGHT IT UP EH?)

So the conversation on the NK ends as soon as you defend yourself because everything else is WIFOM. Seems convenient. Answer me this, if Jon had been the NK who would have been the most likely to benefit?

This is MYLO and is extremely important to the win.

I

can't afford to be lynched anymore.

This is LyLo.

The wording of this comes from Scum. Excited Scum with an easy mislynch in LyLo.

I'll try and make it hard for you but I'm not sure what more I can do.

@Jon

- Looking over the setup it is only Mylo

if

there is a bullet proof townie in the setup. Why would you assume Mylo over Lylo here?

@GM

- The bold seems off to me. What exactly are you seeing in Jon's post?

Another thing that worries me about gm is how she didn't want to try to address anyone else as scum when she was scum reading me. I attempted to engage her in looking at others several times. I think our(gm's and mine) next conversations are going to be critical to the game.

So tunneling worries you? Bullshit. You and I both know that a solid tunnel is not particularly alignment-indicative. You're getting overexcited at the prospect of winning this game and that's making you feel like you need an extremely solid case to seal the deal. You feeling like you need an extremely solid case to seal the deal is what's leading to you making graspy points. And you making graspy points should lead to other people realizing that something's not right here.[/quote]

There seems to be some jumps in your thinking here GM.

Fine. Pretend both of us are Town for a minute. Who in the hell is Scum?

@gm What's your thoughts on Victor?

Any follow up coming for either of these questions guys?

Old Stuff:

Looking back over the start.

Dritain contradicted himself bigtime in post 36.

Drone67 only contribution was 41, 42, 43. The rvs seems feigned I guess, otherwise I can only judge him on his successors.

Jon follows Edos in voting Drone (51). If Drone is town then he would be low hanging fruit on Day 1. Dritain had made a fair few scummy posts at this point IMO so I am curious as to why Drone was deemed a worthier vote.

Then the next post Jon makes he revotes Drone (78). There had been a fair few posts (all dead townies) so it seems odd he is reapplying pressure here.

Dritan's response seem pretty bad. I would hate if he got through Day 1 as scum cause he virtually lynched.

Jon's 126 is probably the towniest post seen off non-flipped role at this point in the reread which is pretty bad. That said other than Dritan no of the other roles are really posting (and the more I read the Dritan the more I'm getting annoyed at taking my eye off his role)

Espe's catchups were very non-committal (187). He does place HitD correctly at town but without explanation (and HitD was looking reasonably scummy at the town). He also puts Edos at scum without very much to back it up with.

Dritain was defensive in 194. He deflects in 195 on VW.

Dritan's T/S list (212) - Curiously Jon is his only townread (everyone else is null to scum) His comments on Espeonage seems off compared to his early attack on me as well. Dritan clearly has a scumread on HITD but still holds off voting.

216 and 218 between Jon and Dritan doesn't have the look of scumbuddies interacting.

Jon is putting a vote on VW. The closest thing to wagon was Dritan at this point but with votes all over the place it's probably a reach to consider this a counterwagon. It is the second time his vote follows Edos though.

Oh yeah SafetyDance replaces Drone. 227 is about as non-commital as a player can get.

Espe townreads me, Void and HITD with no real explanation again. He doesn't look like he's doing much reading of the thread but he finds town with no real effort.

SafetyDance is here. Wants to lynch from (Drit, VW, HITD) and we know at least two of these are town. He doesn't like Espe and Edos either.

Actually SD posts were quite good. He responded a bit but didn't stick around long. And he places his vote on Espe when he got his bearings. Likely Espe/SD are not scum together.

Chipmap catchup points to both VW/HITD who as well as being both town were two of the three likely lynches at this point for Day 1 (the other being Espe).

Espe has time to mention he thinks VW will be a mislynch, respond to the case against him but no time scumhunting (280).

That'll have to do for now. Conclusions:

Jon - the pressure on Drone seems unexcessive but it's tough to really gage without a flip. I'd be inclined to say that Jon is town if Matti is scum. Similarly Jon and Espe are likely not scum together. The other thing to note is that is rarely the first vote on a wagon. On the other hand Jon is seeming the most townie at this point.

Drone/Safety - Drone did virtually nothing (though his three posts look fairly self conscious) and SD posts weren't much but look townish. Still very little to judge this role on due to low activity.

Espe - Hated his play. Lurky, low scumhunting etc. I think most of what I'm saying has been said to death. I couldn't even find any good interactions to judge him off.

Dritan/Chitmap - I actually kinda hate myself for letting this role live as long as it had. Dritan was really scummy day 1, disappeared and all his replacement did was just go through the motions. I need to read the rest of the Day but I am back to wanted to lynch this role right now.

Anyway, that's all for now. Will get back to this later.

[VictorDeAngelo]

I don't want to narrow down the field until I finish looking over the game. I still want to know from Jon who his leading suspect is for GM's scumbuddy. The whole people aren't posting enough isn't sitting right with me. I'll try to get some questions at the end of this reread if anything stands out.

Jon (284) tells VW there should already be scum on his wagon. I don't remember him following up on this.

Chitmap is still just echoing popular opinion (295)

Actual is it just me is Jon overfriendly with Void. He's not backed away from the wagon but after asking him to find scum he seems to be buddying him (298).

I do like Jon's interactions with HITD here though. He has been consistant with this push.

Espe continues to stick to Edos/RC slot although he doesn't really offer much explanation. He then distances himself from the upcoming townflip of VW without actually doing anything to try and stop it (320).

Matti replaces into the SD/Drone role. He only focuses on four players - Espe/Jon/RC/Void - he just why are you voting for the person your voting for in four different ways. Looking back this questioning feels kinda forced. (329).

Matti's 332 does read quite towny though.

Jon keeps talking about metadiving Espe (I thought he'd already done that in the game)

@Jon

- How many players have you metadived this game excluding Espe?

Chitmap (351) looking back at this post, the first question looks like a decent attack on VW but the second has the whiff of chainsawing about it.

And the day ends. The final votecount:

Final Vote Count of Day One:

Voidwalker1234 - 5 (jon_h61, VictorDeAngelo, RedCoyote, chitmap2510, YurikoJasmine)

VictorDeAngelo - 2 (HiddenInTheDark, Voidwalker1234)
RedCoyote - 1 (Espeonage)

Not Voting - 1 (Matti)

---

After what seems like an eternity, the frazzled town drags Voidwalker reluctantly to the makeshift gallows. Fear and apathy warred with their bloodlust, but the Mafia were not going to leave without drastic action. Unfortunately, in this case the victim of their wrath was a simple townie like most of them...

Voidwalker1234,

Vanilla Townie

, has been lynched Day One.

I let HITD distract me from the wagon yesterday (I guess he really did just have a good townread on VW after all). I would be surprised if there wasn't one scum on the VW wagon after all. My thinking is Chitmap, he didn't ever really express any strong feeling about the wagon looked opportunistic with the vote. It could be Jon as well - despite all the criticism of Espe he has stuck to the VW since following Edos onto it early on.

I don't understand Espe's reasons for his vote on RC. Matti was not caught up at this point -

@Matti

who would you have voted for Day 1 and why?

I guess the votecounts are now less conclusive with HITD being town. If I would have to pick a scumteam out of you four based on Day 1's play it would Espe/Chitmap with the caveat that the Drone/SafetyDance/Matti role didn't provide much content. I have niggles about Jon but I finding him the towniest of the group of remaining players.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Is it just me, or do you talk about jon twice as often as you talk about anyone else?

What point are you trying to make?

Also, why didn't you answer my question?

What question?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Is it just me, or do you talk about jon twice as often as you talk about anyone else?

What point are you trying to make?

What point do you think I'm trying to make? Does everything I say have to be making a point?

So was it just an idle observation.

Also, why didn't you answer my question?

What question?

@Everyone who isn't jon:
1. Does anyone have any objections to narrowing today's lynch field to jon and me?
2. Now would be a good time to ask me any questions that you could possibly want answered.

I don't want to narrow down the field until I finish looking over the game. I still want to know from Jon who his leading suspect is for GM's scumbuddy. The whole people aren't posting enough isn't sitting right with me. I'll try to get some questions at the end of this reread if anything stands out.

[VictorDeAngelo]

@ Matti DON'T REPLACE OUT! Vote gm!

When did Matti say he was gonna replace out?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Sigh, if GM or Jon is town this game will be over soon enough anyway. I guess we have to narrow it down. GM is the scummier role. Matti or HS is his partner.

VOTE: vote Goodmorning

[VictorDeAngelo]

EBWOP: That should be is GM and Jon is town.

[VictorDeAngelo]

VOTE: goodmorning

[VictorDeAngelo]

voting is hard.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Now we just have to wait for Mr. Flay for the flip.

@gm do you have a parting words?

Please tell me neither of you are scum. if you are, it's lights out.

Don't really want to know whether goodmorning is scum?

[VictorDeAngelo]

Good game everybody, apologies to all I killed/try to kill. I realise now killing is wrong and solves nothing.

Thanks to Mr. Flay for hosting.

More thoughts will come later. Any Dead chat Mod?

[VictorDeAngelo]

The experienced players should be able to help. The IC in my last game had a good set of advice PG for players. I don't know if Espe/GM would be that doing that here. Maybe I will with you all again soon.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Pretty much. When Victor kept on questioning me and wouldn't stop. I finally told him I wasn't answering anymore of his questions because it was going on repeat and was tired of that subject and moved on to someone else. Smart? No not really. But, it got him off of my ass and trying to grill me burnt to a crisp.

Actually telling me you weren't answering questions was a very smart thing to do. I only really started getting aggressive because the whole "I believe your claim" thing was a major slip. I needed more content to cover it up and you were liable to slip. It kinda worked out until you decided to ignore me.

[VictorDeAngelo]

No dead chat

I'm happy to release the scum chat if Matti is. I just need another game to fire now.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Scum chat

If not for Matti it's funny to think how differently this game would have turned out if we had shot Jon night 1 instead of RC. Cheers to Matti for talking me into the correct kill.