Newbie 1546: Binary Trolls (Game Over!)

[Luca Blight]

Vote: Carli

For buddying that Netherspite guy.

[Luca Blight]

If in the same context, of course.

What use does buddying have at this stage at the game? If it's progressed far enough where you are able form solid reads on people then fair enough, but right now you could be reassuring someone who could quite easily be mafia at this point in the game, which would make them feel nice and relaxed early on which isn't what we want.

Who would get more out of buddying at this early stage of the game? Clearly mafia.

[Luca Blight]

Wait wait wait.
While I agree with the statement that "buddying can be a sign of scum", I find your reasoning kinda weird.

First you say that reassuring someone who could quite easily be scum is bad because scum will feel nice and relaxed early.
Second you say that it is scum who is likely to do buddying. Obviously scum won't buddy their scum partner (except for the WIFOM sake) because this can draw suspicion to them. But if scum won't buddy scum then your whole reasoning is wrong. You say that scum most likely will do that and it's good for the scum to be the buddying target.

Besides that, I totally not agree with scum having profit of someone buddying them. Just because it will most likely draw more suspicion to them instead of making them more town looking.

Also, I would rather prefer scum feeling nice and relaxed early. Just because it increases the chance they'll do some mistake because of assumption that they're not the main suspects and no one looks closely at what they post.

I find your post rather weird. Your logic is flawed, either intentionally (because you just try to accuse someone for buddying because town would do that) or unintentionally. Considering you're SE, I doubt the latter.
Hoping to see more of the content from you further into D1 before I'll be able to build some more complete picture.

There is nothing weird or flawed about my logic, only a fault in your understanding.

The first part of your post - I clearly meant it wouldn't make as much sense to do it from a town perspective, because it would make scum feel nice and relaxed early on, and it is too early to be too sure of any read you might have, therefore scum are more likely to do it.

You say scum wouldn't 'buddy' scum, but that's complete rubbish because the fact you assume that makes it a worthwhile venture in itself. Obviously it technically wouldn't be 'buddying', perhaps fake-buddying is the correct term?

The last part of you post you come over for some reason defensive, and make assumptions based on the fact I'm SE which means very little. Your last sentence comes across as a bit strange; it's like a veiled threat that 'I've got my eye on you' and that you're already lining up a possible lynch once you have 'built up a clearer picture'.

Just so you know I'll also be keeping my eye on you, as with everyone in this game. See how meaningless those kinds of comments are?

[Luca Blight]

[quote="In post 28,

Vote: Carli

For buddying that Netherspite guy.

It didn't felt like scumbuddying to me.

And I do townread Netherspite too

.

Based on what?

I'd like to hear some reasoning for such bold early claims.

[Luca Blight]

So you're saying my point is flawed over something which is clearly a matter of opinion?

In my opinion, scum overly-thinking what they are doing and feeling under pressure is more likely to wield results. If they are relaxed they can get into a townie state of mind. I know if I was mafia I would prefer to play naturally than having to worry about slipping up.

Clearly you disagree, but to say my point is flawed is incorrect.

[Luca Blight]

So, can I sum your words up as "if someone buddies someone then it's most likely scum buddying scum" ?

Where did I say that? Are you deliberately trying to misrepresent me as I never said anything like that.

We cannot assume anything of the sort of this stage, it was just something that caught my eye, the first thing in fact, and I thought it warranted a little attention.

What is more concerning is your apparent view that scum would never buddy scum! What else are you going to blatantly overlook?

[Luca Blight]

Well, you're saying things that contradict to each other.

Lets go into details.
We are talking about "buddying". We won't define this word here as it should be pretty obvious for both me and you.

So we're talking about who will more likely "buddy" who.
I'll define "normal conditions" as a state when probability of every person buddying every other person equal regardless of alignment of the both.
I'll also call someone who is performing the buddying "buddying subject", and someone who is the target of it "buddying object".
There are exactly 5 possibilities here:

1. Normal conditions. In this case you can't do any conclusions of buddying subject and/or object's alignment because there is equal chance that someone else will be buddying someone else.

2. Town buddying town is more likely than in normal conditions. In this case you should generally townread both buddying subject and buddying object as the chance of town buddying town is higher than any other combinations.

3. Scum buddying town is more likely than in normal conditions. This contradicts to your words as you said that it's giving more profit to the scum when the scum is buddying object. Why would scum buddy town if it'll give more profit to the scum if he'd buddy his scum partner? And if you still think that scum would buddy town just so no one will suspect them both for that, why then you mention that being a buddying object is profitting the scum if it does not matter in the context?

4. Town buddying scum is more likely than in normal conditions. This contradicts to both your vote (your voted buddying subject and not buddying object) and the logic (town does not know that his target is scum so why would town chosing this specific target would be more likely? In fact, it is even less likely than town buddying town just because there are more townies than scum).

5. Scum buddying scum is more likely than in normal conditions. You just said that this is not the case and you don't think so.

So, your posts contradict to any of the possibilities besides 1 and 2. Yet you tend to make some scumreads out of the buddying fact.
Please explain it as I don't see any logic in your words at this point.

I find this post confusing, and think you are deliberately over-complicating the matter to suit you argument.

Town buddying town - 'buddying' in itself is more of a scum-trait, as what is the need for town to buddy someone? It is a deceitful move, through which you try and gain a personal advantage in the game. Town buddying town may be possible in some sort of gambit, or may be accidental. Later in the game when there is a more solid basis for reads, one can declare they read someone else as town, but whether or not you deem this to be 'buddying' or a genuine read is down to how you read the situation.

Town buddying scum - Pretty much the same as above.

Scum buddying town - the most likely, in my opinion, because scum have the most to gain from 'buddying' someone they know is town, in the hope they will reciprocate the read.

Scum buddying scum - less likely, but certainly not impossible. Probably more likely to happen later in the game where tactical conditions allow, but a potential daring early strategy perhaps.

I don't see any contradiction there.

[Luca Blight]

@Luca

I've learned in my previous game that some players tend to scumread some of these behaviors.
I'm not going to stop doing so just because someone considers it scummy. This is my playstyle and my way of scum-hunting.
If someone considering it absolutely scummy and would lynch for that - go ahead

Post like this is one of the biggest towntell for newbs. I've never seen newbscum doing this in my entire experience of playing mafia.
Basically if newbscum knows that his play can be lynchbaited as town, he will use that as a "newbcard" and try to justify his future scummy action, which I initially frowned at the Nether's post I quoted.
But then this

I'm not going to stop doing so just because someone considers it scummy. This is my playstyle and my way of scum-hunting.
If someone considering it absolutely scummy and would lynch for that - go ahead

is what newbscum would almost never do. Why throw away the perfect justification/excuse of his scummy play like this as scum?

How do you know he is newb? He may be new to this site, but he certainly seems more familiar with the game than a rank newb would be, so could have experience playing elsewhere.

Can you explain why that quote in particular is a towntell? It's not as if there's any negative consequence to him saying it, it seems like he is just making an early excuse for his future behaviour which he can refer back to if need be.

[Luca Blight]

Why are you saying that "town buddying town" is less likely? If I find someone's post logical and agree with it, why can't I admit it? Why should I hide it?
I don't see how it is always "deceitful move". It

can

be deceitful move, but not any more probable than genuine townie read on another person.

I wouldn't class simply agreeing with a point made 'buddying'. This was the point I was referring to when I said "Later in the game when there is a more solid basis for reads, one can declare they read someone else as town, but whether or not you deem this to be 'buddying' or a genuine read is down to how you read the situation.".

So initially you're saying that it's more likely for the scum to be the target of buddying because if profits the scum to feel relaxed.
Now you say that it's actually more likely for the town to be the target of the buddying. Can you settle in some single opinion and not jump from one to another?

I'm getting tired of you misrepresenting me, that is nothing like what I have said. If you really think I said " it's more likely for the scum to be the target of buddying because if profits the scum to feel relaxed" then think again and re-read, because that makes absolutely no sense.

First you deny such possibility now you admit it. Okay, okay...

What the f*ck? It was you who denied it was a possibility, not me.

You cannot be serious.

[Luca Blight]

How do you know he is newb? He may be new to this site, but he certainly seems more familiar with the game than a rank newb would be, so could have experience playing elsewhere.

Can you explain why that quote in particular is a towntell? It's not as if there's any negative consequence to him saying it, it seems like he is just making an early excuse for his future behaviour which he can refer back to if need be.

His posts in general suggests that he's still in a newb stage.
It's a towntell because he's throwing away one of the potential best defense that can not be argued upon if scum.

I don't get what he is throwing away. Are you saying the fact he says we can lynch him on that basis is a towntell?

If so I would disagree, on the basis it is very early on the game, he is under no pressure and I see it as him excusing potential future scummy play, and he follows it with a '' which takes any seriousness out of what was said.

If I'm missing something here then please put me straight.

[Luca Blight]

but right now you could be reassuring someone who could quite easily be mafia at this point in the game, which would make them feel nice and relaxed early on which isn't what we want.

Who would get more out of buddying at this early stage of the game? Clearly mafia.

May be I am blind or stupid, but you are saying that it is profitting the mafia to be the buddying object.

So, can I sum your words up as "if someone buddies someone then it's most likely scum buddying scum" ?

Where did I say that? Are you deliberately trying to misrepresent me as I never said anything like that.

And here you say that this being more likely than, say, townie buddying townie.

Where do I read you wrong?

===

Do you say that townreading someone is absolutely impossible at this stage of the game?
Why do you scumread someone and vote him then? Are the only permitted reads at this point scumreads?

You're getting muddled/misreading what I have posted.

I said who would get more out of buddying someone else - to which the answer is obviously mafia, right? In my opinion it does aid the mafia to be the 'buddying object' as well for the reasons explained, but that isn't to say that is likely or unlikely; my point never centered around the 'buddying object', only the person initiating the buddying. Beyond that it is pure speculation/WIFOM at this point.

I have never said scum buddying scum is more likely than town buddying town, you are inventing these things and it doesn't reflect well on you.

I think being sure someone is town at this stage is virtually impossible, you obviously have inklings here and there. I do think there is a difference between town-reading someone and buddying, however.

I haven't 'scumread' the person I voted for; it was something that caught my attention, and being in the RVS and my opening post in the game, warranted a vote over one of random choice.

[Luca Blight]

1. So you don't consider scum buddying scum more likely than town buddying town, okay. You also consider scum buddying town more likely than any other case (post 52). So using your logic, it should be more possible that I'm town than I'm scum (if

Carli

is scum then it's more possible and if she's town then it's equally possible, so overall it's more possible), yet you don't agree when

GiF

saying that.
So I'll ask it to clarify: what reads do you have on me so far?

2. You still didn't answer what exactly would get mafia from buddying townie?
Also,

Carli

and

GiF

buddied me in your own words, so do you consider them being a scumteam?

3. You call it a RVS vote yet your reasoning was not really proper for RVS (involving game-related arguments). Why?

1) Scum buddying Town is the most likely from a logical viewpoint for the reasons explained. It doesn't logically make sense for Town to buddy anyone, because what good does it do for the town? Obviously these things do happen however, and statistically it's probably more liely for town to buddy (particularly in newb games) purely because there are considerably more town than mafia. I don't know what GIF's point has to do with this argument as it is entirely unrelated. I do not have a firm read on you so far; I was concerned with some of the misrepresenting, but I feel this may have been a genuine mistake on your part.

2) I did answer; a reciprocating view. Mafia buddies up to townies to benefit themselves; any townie they can get on side is going to be beneficial. I remember in a previous game when I was scum, I buddied the player who turned pout to be cop when he was under fire, and he later pretended he had investigated me as town when he hadn't, because he was so sure I was town, and I obviously ended up winning the game on that.

I know not of any scumteams at the moment, I can only comment on scummy behaviour as I see it and that post from Carli was what first caught my attention. I don't know of GIF is buddying you, but I am unconvinced by his logic which puts you as a strong townread.

3) I didn't call it a RVS vote, read again and please stop misrepping me.

[Luca Blight]

I would say so; the purpose of RVS is to get the game moving and producing content, which has happened now.

[Luca Blight]

Hello Hello.

Starting off with nice little random votes

The quoting system on this forum though

Good Morning everyone

Yeah but still that doesnt mean you can just ignore my questions.

I am not ignoring your question, I just don't think it's important enough to deserve an answer. Logically thinking, there is not a chance in Atlantis that every newbie on this forum who has at least 1 game under their belt knows each and every commonly used abbreviation!

With that ^ said, I am not ignorant. I do know what the random voting stage is and what it entails/ the events of such a stage.

Hence I said I would like to discuss D1 lynches because you think that it's really something we shouldn't be afraid of where I think that we need to be careful not to speedlynch a townie with no scummy vibe on them. In the end, the more town people we have the better chance we have of winning this game.

Moving on, I like this Netherspite guy your play style (or the plan thereof) seems fantastic to me. Clarity and logic will help us win this game.

I say us because you are my very first person on my town-lean list.

PS. I do not think your questions are silly
PPS. I'm sorry everyone for the wall of text

And do you think a speedlynch is likely?

What do you think of his clarity and logic?

Why would I think a speedlynch would be likely if I told GIF I disagree with D1 lynches due to lack of information ?

So you enter the game with a comment about the 'nice little random votes'. You are then questioned on why you didn't cast one yourself, you blatantly ignore this question, and when prompted again say "I think that we need to be careful not to speedlynch a townie with no scummy vibe on them". You then in your last post say you don't think a speedlynch is common with a confused smiley.

You certainly do seem to be confused, because you base your reason on not casting an RVS vote on the apparent possibility of a speedlynch, and then say you don't think a speedlynch is likely. So why didn't you cast a vote?

Everything you have done and posted so far has been cautious fluff.

[Luca Blight]

You certainly do seem to be confused, because you base your reason on not casting an RVS vote on the apparent possibility of a speedlynch, and then say you don't think a speedlynch is likely. So why didn't you cast a vote?

Perhaps I am a little confused, call it lack of proper knowledge about the game or something along those lines but my main argument with GIF was with D1 lynching. This may seem irrelevant at first but it totally got mixed up in all of this, because he's IC intro said that we shouldn't be afraid to lynch on D1, which I don't agree with entirely. Cause I think we need to take our time and be careful because every town aligned person is a valuable asset for us to win this game.

You do realise every day phase lasts a maximum of two weeks, which is more than enough time to decide an informed lynch? No-lynching on day one does town no favours, because we gain no information from the lynch and mafia gain an early advantage, simple as that.

You certainly do seem to be confused, because you base your reason on not casting an RVS vote on the apparent possibility of a speedlynch, and then say you don't think a speedlynch is likely. So why didn't you cast a vote?

I'm not exactly sure where speedlynching got involved but I'm sure it has to do with this ^ (which I think cleared things up for anyone wondering).

Anyway, I didn't have a RVS vote because in all honesty I didn't have a breathing space to do so, as soon as the game started GiF came for me and one by one people started questioning me (not all of course). So all of my posts have been dedicated to answering your questions, I could have started the game with a random vote instead of the intro I chose, but that is not mandatory practice (RVS), and if you want to lynch me because I don't have a random vote which encourages a lollynch then please by all means go ahead and lynch me, and give scum 1 free VT that they don't have to kill in order for them to ultimately win the game.

Absolute rubbish, you had the 'breathing space'' to case an RVS vote in your opening post which is what most people do, instead you made a useless comment pointing out that others were making 'nice little random votes'. It isn't mandatory, but the way you then ignored the question of why you commented on it but didn't cast one yourself, and then contradict yourself about speedlynches raises a few eyebrows.

Your last sentence is very scummy; you've suddenly claimed VT, not a pro-town move at this stage in the game, and you're basically using the 'go ahead and lynch me then and let mafia win' argument, which is desperate at best. This post is very defensive, something I would expect of someone at L-1 close to deadline, not from someone under light questioning at this stage of the game. You said it yourself, all your posts are dedicated to getting the heat off of your back, not in helping us find scum.

[Luca Blight]

I never 'rephrased his words to make him look bad'. I was the one being misrepped, he genuinely said scum wouldn't ever buddy scum:

First you say that reassuring someone who could quite easily be scum is bad because scum will feel nice and relaxed early.
Second you say that it is scum who is likely to do buddying.

Obviously scum won't buddy their scum partner (except for the WIFOM sake) because this can draw suspicion to them.

But if scum won't buddy scum then your whole reasoning is wrong. You say that scum most likely will do that and it's good for the scum to be the buddying target.

[Luca Blight]

Bananas34 could do with a gentle prodding @ Mod

[Luca Blight]

The reason I found the last sentence scummy was more to do with this than the VT claim, GIF:

if you want to lynch me because I don't have a random vote which encourages a lollynch then please by all means go ahead and lynch me, and give scum 1 free VT that they don't have to kill in order for them to ultimately win the game.

Arguments like that seem scummy to me. It does nothing to help us and is purely a survivalist attitude, as well as an argument any player could give regardless of their allegiance because it is in essence yet more meaningless fluff, without any substance that can be used for or against her. She says she has been dedicated since the start of the game to getting the heat off of her, but if she is town then why isn't she trying to provide us with another option instead of focusing solely on lowering her own level of suspicion?

What particularly about her post gave you a 'townvibe', GIF?

[Luca Blight]

GIF, you seem to have acquired some townreads thus far, do you have any suspicions?

I also hate this argument that someone is ''too scummy to be scum'' which is basically what you''re saying there. Yes that is sometimes the case, but if we're townreading people for acting scummy then what hope have we got?

[Luca Blight]

Welcome, Tool.

I look forward to your reads, hopefully it will prompt some much-needed activity in this game.

[Luca Blight]

Nether's point around Shiro seems to be mainly centred around a lack of scumhunting. The only question I would have here is why is Shiro a bigger scumread than Carli, who has also not done any scumhunting, but has also appeared scummy for other reasons noted earlier, and has dropped out of the game since being pressured?

[Luca Blight]

I don't like the fact Shiro isn't voting for her scumread because the IC had 'townvibes' from one of her posts, which in itself was based on the notion of being 'too scummy to be scum', hardly the strongest of cases. This type of behavior doesn't make sense to me, when there is no clear indication of GIF's alignment this stage; the only ones who know his alignment for sure of course are mafia. It seems as though Carli is heading towards a policy lynch at any rate, so it would make more sense for mafia to stay off the wagon so as not to incriminate themselves down the line, if Carli is town. It is cautious play, no doubt.

The fact Shiro said she would for for Victor (who she admitted is nothing but a null read) over her main scumread in Carli based on one post by the IC is a red flag. Yes there could well be mafia amongst the lurkers, but there is simply no way of knowing, and to randomly vote someone out of the lurkers is akin to flipping a coin to decide lynches. Very weak reasoning.

I would be willing to consider switching to Shiro based on this.

[Luca Blight]

Shiro didn't want to vote for Carli because GIF had townvibes from one of hr posts, but then, when questioned about why she isn't voting, votes her replacement before he has even had a chance to post?

That makes no sense and feels scummy. I was considering switching votes but TGGC's entrance doesn't sit right with me. He calls almost everyone either scum or a 'useless townie', which in itself kind of renders him either scum or a 'useless townie' with such lazy reads, doesn't it? He also votes for Shiro, a null read of his, over Nether, who he reads as scum. Bear in mind Nether is also the one pushing the Shiro lynch. This also makes no sense.

What was the 'useful' post by Dyslex and why was it useful?

[Luca Blight]

Why was is a useless conversation? It got the game out of RVS, didn't it?

I'm not sure it's possible to have much of a useless conversation in a game of inactivity.

[Luca Blight]

So you've read every post yet you don't know that Carli already claimed and it was broadly discussed?
Very well. I'm happy with my vote on you then.

He will also have seen that Farrar stated his intent to hammer.

Instead of trying to make a case against anyone else he is trying to make everyone to justify their voting of him, hardly the most inspiring move - he has basically given up, is playing lazily and might as well be hammered now.

I'm still wondering why he isn't pushing the lynch of Nether, his scum read. He's gone for Shiro but clearly has no conviction in it at all.

[Luca Blight]

Because I'm paranoid of GiF and I'm not 100% sold on TGGC being scum. So if TGGC flipped town and we gave scumGiF the benefit of not having to weigh in on the current state of affairs before we hammered, I feel like that would be very bad for town.

I know you were asked why you unvoted, but isn't this post counter-intuitive as it could affect the way GIF does respond to this situation (if he is scum) because he will now be aware of your paranoia and intentions behind unvoting?

There are a couple of others (Victor, Toffee) who haven't weighed in on this either, does that equally bother you, or are you more interested in GIF?

In the unlikely event of TGGC flipping Town, would GIF gain towncred based on his contributions so far?

You say you aren't completely sold on TGGC being scum, does that mean you are considering pushing another wagon?

[Luca Blight]

@Netherspite:
If you would have read my posts, you might have noticed:
a) I am not going to explain Carli's behaviour

b) I do not consider #98 a claim

So why you suddenly try to push my claim and lynch that fast?

As I've explained previously, some of them will be "filler" questions while some of them will give me useful information to support / deny my theories.
Few days before the deadline I'll share what I've learned and post my whole case on my main suspects.

Still waiting.


What exactly would make that unlikely in your opinion.

Anyway, I didn't have a RVS vote because in all honesty I didn't have a breathing space to do so, as soon as the game started GiF came for me and one by one people started questioning me (not all of course). So all of my posts have been dedicated to answering your questions, I could have started the game with a random vote instead of the intro I chose, but that is not mandatory practice (RVS), and if you want to lynch me because I don't have a random vote which encourages a lollynch then please

by all means go ahead and lynch me, and give scum 1 free VT

that they don't have to kill in order for them to ultimately win the game.

Are you really trying to argue this isn't a VT claim? And you question why I think it's unlikely you will flip Town?

Basically Carli has been the scummiest player in this game for reasons stated. You come in and do nothing to change my mind on this slot, only make my belief more rigid that it is scum. Your entrance post was poor, you scum read Nether yet voted Shiro, and have had no conviction behind that vote or tried to push it in any way. You have given me no reason to town-read you; and I feel pretty confident in my vote.

[Luca Blight]

I still don't get why Carli claimed VT when she did if she was Doc. Obviously there is a chance that TGGC knew he was going to be lynched, so attempted to draw the Doc out with a counter-claim, or survive if there isn't one. If TGGC is lying, would it be best for the Doc, if there is one, to counter-claim at this point?

I guess I will unvote for now. I'm not sure what to make of Shiro; she has certainly been the next most scummy player in this game, but I would like to hear from a few of the others.

UNVOTE:

[Luca Blight]

I''m not lurking, I've just been busy as hell over the last week, particularly the last few days. I now have a few days to get stuck into this.

I have skimmed through and Blue's protection of Shiro seems to have stuck out to a few, and fact he has now claimed Shiro is 'obv Town', while giving absurd views like one of the other replacements must be scum, and lining up a potential vote on myself further down the road by saying I could be scum, but being very non-committal raises serious doubts in my mind.

I'm gonna get stuck into this in the morning as it's late, but I know where I'm gonna stick my vote for now.

VOTE: Toffee

[Luca Blight]

My plan right now is to go back and pick apart the Nether cases (if they're as forgettable as they seem to be) and win those two over to a Shiro lynch and then hope Blue takes his head out of his ass.

My biggest reason for not wanting to lynch Shiro is her vote on TGGC in #215. Give me an explanation for scumShiro doing that.

Because she was being questioned on why she wasn't voting, and probably thought she looked suspicious in not doing so at that stage?

That vote actually did look a bit scummy to me, as it seemed to contradict her earlier reason for not voting that slot. The fact Carli turned from a lurker to being replaced should not have any effect on her read, it was bizarre.

[Luca Blight]

I don't know, I don't like how she had posted (welcoming the replacements into the game) then Toffee asked why she wasn't voting, and she just basically complied and voted straight away. Why hadn't she voted in that initial post if that was her genuine intention when Carli replaced out? She also asked a question to TGGC to explain Carli's actions after her vote, putting him at L-1 before he'd even started. Why didn't she ask him before the vote to try and gauge his reaction? You wonder why would scumShiro make that vote, I'm failing to see why TownShiro would.

[Luca Blight]

Victor, my thinking in 188 wasn't 'bizarre' at all, what is bizarre is how you've somehow managed to read the opposite of what that post said. Re-read it and you will find I never said Carli was a policy lynch to try and clear Shiro, I was saying it would make sense for scum, at that point, not to hop on any wagon too prematurely, as it seemed as though a Carli lynch was inevitable.

[Luca Blight]

I don't like the fact Shiro isn't voting for her scumread because the IC had 'townvibes' from one of her posts, which in itself was based on the notion of being 'too scummy to be scum', hardly the strongest of cases. This type of behavior doesn't make sense to me, when there is no clear indication of GIF's alignment this stage; the only ones who know his alignment for sure of course are mafia.

It seems as though Carli is heading towards a policy lynch at any rate, so it would make more sense for mafia to stay off the wagon so as not to incriminate themselves down the line, if Carli is town. It is cautious play, no doubt.

The fact Shiro said she would for for Victor (who she admitted is nothing but a null read) over her main scumread in Carli based on one post by the IC is a red flag. Yes there could well be mafia amongst the lurkers, but there is simply no way of knowing, and to randomly vote someone out of the lurkers is akin to flipping a coin to decide lynches. Very weak reasoning.

I would be willing to consider switching to Shiro based on this.

There we go.

Please enlighten me, what part of that post is trying to clear Shiro?

[Luca Blight]

I'm not withholding any information. I told you I'm town-reading Shiro.

Scum-reads are important. Not town-reads.

That's certainly the case when you're mafia, however when you're town you don't have the answers in front of you, so Town reads are equally important.

Claiming Shiro is 'obv Town' is scummy because I have seen nothing to suggest this is the case, and you are refusing to explain it. The only players Shiro could appear 'obv Town' to are the mafia, who already know her alignment.

[Luca Blight]

Toffee's behaviour doesn't make sense from a Town perspective. Why would a Townie be so reluctant to give reasons for an 'obv town' read, and then subsequently give false reasons?

It doesn't make sense.

[Luca Blight]

His early play wasn't scummy, it was bad. Same as now. He's just being consistently bad for town. I'd like that to change.

Does the same apply for Shiro, or do you see scum-motivation behind her play?

What did you think of Tool's reason for believing Shiro may be Town; her voting of TGGC?

[Luca Blight]

Here you go, Farrar:

My plan right now is to go back and pick apart the Nether cases (if they're as forgettable as they seem to be) and win those two over to a Shiro lynch and then hope Blue takes his head out of his ass.

My biggest reason for not wanting to lynch Shiro is her vote on TGGC in #215. Give me an explanation for scumShiro doing that.

[Luca Blight]

To answer Nether's question...

Toffee is my biggest scumread at the moment, hence my vote. I would be happy to 'policy lynch' my second biggest scumread, Shiro. The other possible wagon appears to be you, Nether. I have had you down as Town for most of this game, but one or two things have made me question that slightly. You are not my preferred lynch right now, but part of me feels Toffee/Shiro could be a bit too obvious as scum, and perhaps a Nether lynch would provide information if nothing else. Since the TGGC Doc claim, I kind of agree with Farrar in that there are no great wagons right now. It's 01:30 where I am so I'm going to get to bed and will have a good hunt through some ISOs in the Morning.

I find it concerning that our alleged Doctor has not posted at all since claiming, not to mention GIF who hasn't helped out at all. One thing that irks me about Toffee is his insistence that Shiro is Town; I don't believe they are a scumteam, because they wouldn't be as obvious as that, but if we go ahead and lynch Shiro and she flips Town, then what? Toffee is obviously going to gain Towncred despite everything.

In summary: I don't really know. I will have a look through Tomorrow. I'm not sure why the wagon on Nether has built up, but Nether's passive reaction to it seems a bit strange. Farrar is probably my strongest townread now, so in all the Shiro wagon looks the more attractive, whereas Nether's contains three players I find a tad dodgy. As I said, I will do some analysis in the morning and see if I can find anything.

[Luca Blight]

I'm not sure Nether is the best lynch for today; he is posting and will be easier to read over the following days than some of the others. I don't see much to justify lynching him over Shiro/Toffee, who even combined have done much less for Town. Obviously this doesn't make them scum, but I don't like the idea of keeping players alive because they are playing 'too bad' to be scum, while looking for players who are 'trying too hard', because if that is the case then we as a Town might as well just fall on our sword and admit defeat anyway, because we are fighting against ourselves.

[Luca Blight]

Tool, so obviously that meta is none too convincing, can you try and sell me your best argument for why Nether is scum?

I will have a look back in the morning through all the reasoning, but I would appreciate a condensed version right here so we know where we stand.

[Luca Blight]

I will have a look back in the morning through all the reasoning, but I would appreciate a condensed version right here so we know where we stand.

Posts #311 and #603 both summarize my case against Nether. The most important bits are:

1. Nether's vote on TGGC in #267 looks like him pulling out a reason to vote TGGC after he's already made up his mind to vote that slot.
2. His back-up reasoning for his vote in #274 seems shallow and looks like something scum would do to shore up their reasoning for a vote because they're afraid they look bad.

Yep, you've kind of summarised my own reasons for doubting Nether, having initially townread him. For someone who has posted a lot, much of it hasn't been terribly productive, and he was very tentative around the Carli/TGGC wagon, and I agree that his voting and backing up of his vote was a bit suspect. Another thing that has caught my eye with Nether is his passive attitude towards a wagon being built up on him, which seems to have coincided with him scumreading Shiro.

After TGGC claimed Doc there was a post by Nether saying he 'hated' all the votes on that wagon, apart from his. Why did he not say this at the time, and why join a wagon filled with 'bad' votes? He has been cautious with his reading of me as well, which makes me feel he is possibly lining up my lynch further own the road, saying I 'could be scum', and then saying he needs my answer to which wagon I'll be voting to make a decision on me, which doesn't sit right. Shiro and Toffee have given me more reason to vote them, and in an ideal world it would just be a simple as lynching the obvious ones, but I've learnt that it is rarely the obvious ones who are Mafia. I am going to take a punt on this.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Netherspite

L-1

[Luca Blight]

Nether, you say Toffee 'doesn't make sense' as scum, does the same not apply to Shiro?

Why is Shiro's play scummy but Toffee's not?
Why did you say you think it was a mistake lynching Shiro in post post 444, despite leading the wagon on Shiro?

[Luca Blight]

First of all, I'd like to hear from BlueBloodedToffee as if I got his intentions correctly it's time for him to post now.
And if I was wrong then his actions just make no sense at all from any perspective.

Why is it only important you understand correctly now? Why wasn't it important before?

Surely this is quite an important point as you seem to be basing your entire read of him based on this?

[Luca Blight]

I can't get rid of the feeling that lynching Shiro is a mistake.

However, previous time I allowed myself to ignore the initial suspect and look for more deep and hidden motivations than there really were, it ended up with a mislynch of the wrong guy. So this time I'll stick with my initial suspect. I prefer logic over gut feelings after all.

The bolded is the scummiest thing I have read so far in this entire game.

VOTE: Nether

A rare time I agree with Toffee.

This does look like a scum-tell, given Nether is actually leading the way for Shiro to be lynched at this point. Not just the highlighted part, the whole post is complete fluff, no conviction at all.

[Luca Blight]

If you didn't skim through my posts you would already know the answers.

1. He does not make sense as town either. His play was looking completely insane from any perspective but one.
And I'm going to see now if I was right about that perspective I'm talking about.

2. Shiro's play wasn't insane, his play was rather scummy. He attempted to adjust his play later and that was making it even more scummy: while BlueBloodedToffee kept doing the same thing as he was obviously knowing what he's doing, Shiro looked like trying to fake townplay using advices from others and adjusting his play after being pointed out.

3. As I said, I had

gut feeling

that his lynch is a mistake. And since in my previous game I had same feeling and it made me lynching the wrong guy instead of the one I initially considered scum (and who

was

scum for real) I promised myself to never repeat this mistake. So I'll keep my vote on Shiro.

PEdit:

Yes, this point is important and I'd like to hear from him to understand whether I was right or not.
But it's him who have to say it.

1. So what point were you trying to make, then? You criticised Tool earlier for seeing both town and scum motivation behind your play, but preferring one over the other, but you're a hypocrite because you're the doing the exact same here.

2. I have also seen scumminess in Shiro's play, but I don't see how you can differentiate so much between the two. If you think scum are unlikely to play as Toffee has done, you should feel the same about Shiro, as they are both attracting attention towards themselves unnecessarily.

3. So you're post was completely useless, then? What good is it trying to push a wagon you admit to believing is a 'mistake'?

Why is it only important now, though? Because you are on L-1, and you are seeing if he will slip up and potentially draw a quick wagon on himself?

[Luca Blight]

Gosh, I was sharing my thoughts and feelings.
I'm being transparent since the beginning of the game.
If we'll have fifth player in this game considering it a scum tell then go ahead and hammer me now, you deserve a lose for such terrible play.

Yeah, and this post is such brilliant town play, isn't it.

[Luca Blight]

This post is just stating the obvious fact that lynching someone who is being transparent, active and open for the whole game is a stupid thing.
If he's scum you'll learn it anyway later and if he's town you're losing someone who is contributing a lot into the town win.

You seem to now be assuming I am Town, whereas before I was merely a 'null' read of yours that you noted you were unsure of, saying I 'could be scum'.

Lynching the person you described wouldn't be so stupid from a scum perspective, would it?

How do I know you're genuinely being 'transparent'? You could be lying about everything you say for all I know. You are indeed active, but mafia can be active too. I'm not sure I agree you are contributing 'a lot' to the 'town win', because I think a lot of your posts are mainly fluff. You have been very cautious and indecisive around the wagons, which isn't particularly helpful for the Town.

[Luca Blight]

You don't see what I'm trying to achieve with this argument?

I was questioning you on certain issues to make sure of my read with mere hours to go until lynch deadline. Unfortunately all you could provide in return was criticism of the Town for suspecting you because you have been active, which is terrible reasoning.

My reasoning for voting you makes perfect sense, but you seem to consider yourself above suspicion. You seem to have given up on me switching my vote at any rate, so perhaps it is best to end this here.

[Luca Blight]

And no, your reasoning for the vote looks made out of nowhere. You repeat others' words and make precautions to not look scummy for joining a wagon on townie.
I really hope you're just townie who is wrong because otherwise my reads on you for the whole D1 are wrong and it's my fault I didn't notice it earlier.

Hardly out of nowhere, when I posted my deliberations over the three potential wagons on the other page. I wasn't 'repeating others' words' (back to that old misrepping habit again), I agreed couple of points Tool made, and added further reasons for suspicion before casting my vote.

This whole Toffee things sticks out to me; you read him as Town on the other page 'if you understand correctly' his meaning behind one of his posts, but didn't think it was important at the time to discover if you were right in your interpretation. You are then put at L-1, and suddenly everything rests on this vital piece of information, which is only vital because it seemingly might save you from a lynch.

That seems survivalist to me. I don't see why, as such a supposedly 'pro-town' player, you wouldn't have questioned this earlier, because your whole read of Toffee appears to hinge on it.

[Luca Blight]

Also, please quote a single point you made about me being scummy that was not repeating of others' words?

I will have a look back in the morning through all the reasoning, but I would appreciate a condensed version right here so we know where we stand.

Posts #311 and #603 both summarize my case against Nether. The most important bits are:

1. Nether's vote on TGGC in #267 looks like him pulling out a reason to vote TGGC after he's already made up his mind to vote that slot.
2. His back-up reasoning for his vote in #274 seems shallow and looks like something scum would do to shore up their reasoning for a vote because they're afraid they look bad.

Yep, you've kind of summarised my own reasons for doubting Nether, having initially townread him. For someone who has posted a lot, much of it hasn't been terribly productive, and he was very tentative around the Carli/TGGC wagon, and I agree that his voting and backing up of his vote was a bit suspect. Another thing that has caught my eye with Nether is his passive attitude towards a wagon being built up on him, which seems to have coincided with him scumreading Shiro.

After TGGC claimed Doc there was a post by Nether saying he 'hated' all the votes on that wagon, apart from his. Why did he not say this at the time, and why join a wagon filled with 'bad' votes? He has been cautious with his reading of me as well, which makes me feel he is possibly lining up my lynch further own the road, saying I 'could be scum', and then saying he needs my answer to which wagon I'll be voting to make a decision on me, which doesn't sit right. Shiro and Toffee have given me more reason to vote them, and in an ideal world it would just be a simple as lynching the obvious ones, but I've learnt that it is rarely the obvious ones who are Mafia. I am going to take a punt on this.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Netherspite

L-1

Pretty much that entire paragraph.

Happy to help.

[Luca Blight]

There was no lie, and I find it ironic how you can accuse anyone of lying given all the misrepping you have done this game.

Why wouldn't you take my vote seriously? If I was Town, on L-1, and someone was pushing a vote on me, I would be taking it seriously and trying to establish the reason for the vote, looking to counter them, while trying to find possible clues as to the player's alignment. Even though you you are saying you think I 'could be scum', this interaction is one where it feels to me like you already know I am Town. If you were genuinely Town and suspected I could be scum, why wouldn't you take it seriously? It doesn't make sense.

Regarding point 2, it is not on it's own though, is it? You are considering it in isolation, when it is one of many reasons.
Point 3: You are contradicting yourself, having said yourself it doesn't make sense for Toffee to be scum due to his obvious anti-town play (and then later undermined your own point by saying it doesn't make sense from a Town perspective either).

[Luca Blight]

Ok, you said 'except maybe Toolenduso's', which I interpret as not liking his vote either, but perhaps not 'hating' it.

Do you really consider that a 'lie'? Does that mean all the numerous times you have misrepped me this game (of which I have given you the benefit of the doubt as genuine errors) have been lies as well?

The fact you are trying to press that on me looks desperate.

[Luca Blight]

You hate the other votes, 'except maybe' Tool's. Does that mean you liked his vote? What does it mean?

I knew exactly what you said, I didn't feel the need to mention it because that was my interpretation, as I said. The fact you are getting so defensive over that particular issue, branding me a 'liar' is quite telling, however.

If you're going to keep arguing about this point then don't bother as it's going nowhere. If you want me to change my vote then try and build a better case on your scumread, Shiro.

[Luca Blight]

You won't summarise your case against Shiro, for the good of the Town in deciding the correct lynch?

And yet it's my fault if you are lynched and flip Town...

You do realise we are hours away from a lynch and it will be either you or Shiro? Given you scumread Shiro, I'm surprised you aren't pushing this one little bit.

[Luca Blight]

Hold on, he's now asking his main scumread to hammer him?

Brilliant.

[Luca Blight]

Even just skimming your case, there is a lot of "as noticed by - ", so once again you are criticising me for something you are doing yourself; using points made by others.

My case does not consist of points mostly made by others (that counts as a lie in your book), and I could go more in-depth in my case for you if there is a need - which there isn't at the moment as you are the main wagon right now on L-1, and therefore it is you, if you are town, that needs to properly justify your reasons for voting the wagon your on, so as to convince others onto it. It really is quite simple. Before this post you had pretty much admitted defeat, even asking your own scumread to hammer you to avoid a no-lynch, so there is clearly no real need for me to go any more in-depth at this time, is there?

With that said, I will look further into your case soon after I've had something to eat.

[Luca Blight]

5 out of 10 points noticed by others is way more strong case than your own.

Also, considering your second paragraph, you're perfectly happy with your vote choice and you don't care if it will be mislynch or not. You aren't trying to find someone else who would look scummy, you even don't care about your previous scum reads.
It makes sense only from scum PoV because all they want is to mislynch someone while not looking suspicious for that.
I have to disappoint you: no, you didn't justify your vote good enough to not look scummy after a mislynch.
Try better.

You really are full of shit, hypocrisy and lies, aren't you?

If I didn't care about avoiding a mislynch why am I still having this conversation? Why would I request your case on Shiro (which you were more than reluctant to provide)?

I'm willing to consider a Shiro lynch as I've said a million time and am giving you ample opportunity to convince me this is the right line to go down. Stop lying, stop misrepping and stop being hypocritical because it is tiresome, pointless, deflects away from the important issue on hand and only makes yourself look bad.

[Luca Blight]

Read this:

Even just skimming your case, there is a lot of "as noticed by - ", so once again you are criticising me for something you are doing yourself; using points made by others.

My case does not consist of points mostly made by others (that counts as a lie in your book), and I could go more in-depth in my case for you if there is a need - which there isn't at the moment as you are the main wagon right now on L-1, and therefore it is you, if you are town, that needs to properly justify your reasons for voting the wagon your on, so as to convince others onto it. It really is quite simple. Before this post you had pretty much admitted defeat, even asking your own scumread to hammer you to avoid a no-lynch, so there is clearly no real need for me to go any more in-depth at this time, is there?

With that said, I will look further into your case soon after I've had something to eat.

Then witness the blatant misrepping:

Because you want to justify your vote for townie?

I was reluctant to play a parrot. I've posted my case on him and summarized it multiple times already. Now I repeated it once again.

If you're so willing to consider his lynch then why are you "skimming" the case by your own words?

Because I admit that some of points mentioned are noticed by someone else? At least I'm being fair here, while your case consisted mostly of points made of others and you didn't mention it before I pointed out.

Luca Blight

His vote makes more sense from a scum perspective.
He cared enough to fake a large case on me so you won't suspect him tomorrow;
And from the townie perspective he makes completely no sense: he says that he is considering changing his vote yet ignoring all the points I make, he is

asking for my case on Shiro yet admittedly completely ignores it.

Nether, whether you are town or scum I'm getting fucking sick of your misrepping and continuously correcting you, so cut it out.

I will re-assess and post in a bit.

[Luca Blight]

Here is my entire case on Shiro.
The key points I consider him scum for.

#69 : As noticed by VictorDeAngelo, Shiro jumps into the discussion just in time to block a forming townread on me.

#79 : As stated by Dyslexicon, Shiro's posts give an impression of useless fluff and echoing other stuff. I agreed to that in #81.

#129 : First time I stated that Shiro does not scumhunt at all.

#141 : As noticed by VictorDeAngelo, Shiro goes after him for lurking while he was V/LA.
Also, in #143 I notice that his second reason for suspecting VictorDeAngelo is that he's most likely partner of scum-Carli. It's just plain stupid to look for some random lurker and call him a partner of someone you suspect as scum instead of going after that one who you list as scum.

#148 : Despite Shiro says before that he'll most likely vote VictorDeAngelo in case he will have to vote, he now states him as null read? (noticed by VictorDeAngelo)

#163 : After I pointed out that he's not scumhunting he performs a weak attempt to scumhunt. Perfectly illustrates my statement that he tries to adjust his play to look less scummy. (noticed by VictorDeAngelo)

#170 : My first case on Shiro. Main points are: a) he does not scumhunt; b) he's being defensive; c) he's raging and being really concerned about being

speed

lynched when he has no votes on him and only my slight suspicion.

#172 and #175 : Further explaining on my first case on him.

#215 : Shiro puts TGGC at L-1 right after he just replaced in and didn't even have a chance to post anything! He also did it exactly after BlueBloodedToffee pointed out that Shiro still didn't vote and asked him why.

===

The points I list as noticed by someone else are the points I completely agree with and thus I include them in my case.

As you can see,

Luca Blight

, my case has way more points made by myself than yours on me. This is what genuinely made case looks like.
I don't believe genuine case can consist mostly of points made by others. It means you're just trying to justify your vote rather than really believe in it.

I will reply to what I deem relevant:

#69 - So what if she 'jumped into the discussion to block a forming Town read' on you? What is scummy about that? I actually happen to agree that GIF's early reason for reading you as Town was complete rubbish, and that appears to be the consensus here.

#79 - Meh, weak 'fluff' reasoning. Yes she's posted fluff, as have you probably more than anyone.

#141 - Fair enough, I found that scummy also.

# 148 - Yep, also scummy. This is where I'm wondering if scum would act so blatantly obvious as that, because it is rarely the case.

# 215 - Yep, bizarre vote which I found scummy as well. Tool thought that was a reason for he being Town, but I disagree with that.

I don't get your point at the end - you're making it sound as if it is a contest between you and me as to who can come up with the best argument, which is bullshit. I think you will find I have made most of the same points on Shiro throughout the thread, because I also find her very scummy.

As I said, I am more than happy to lynch Shiro - she has more than warranted it for her scummy behaviour. Some of your posting has been suspect, Nether, and was worth looking into for that matter. Your post saying you thought the Shiro wagon was a 'mistake' when you where the one leading it is what really caught my eye, but I am willing to reconsider my vote.

[Luca Blight]

Shiro is town because; she's asking questions, she's scum-hunting, her wagon looks scummy, I'm getting town-vibes from her posts...

have you realized what I'm doing yet?

I thought the bolded would have gave away what I was doing.

Evidently not.

This made me thinking that he's trying to catch the scum into the trap.
He was stating false things like "Shiro was scumhunting" because his read on Shiro was false too.
The trap was prepared to catch scum on voting me for stupid reason.

His trap in fact succeeded (caught Luca Blight) unless he is scum himself.

However, since he obviously didn't plan it... I can't consider him as good player as he claimed to be unless he's scum.

If you're not scum, BlueBloodedToffee, you played terribly in this game and I hope you'll learn something out of it.

In what way was I 'caught'?

Look back at when I voted you and you will see it had nothing to do with this post. You seem to think you are above suspicion this game; scum-hunting is great, as long as you're not targeted, eh?

[Luca Blight]

The only one of persons you listed I'd lynch over you is Luca (for obvious reason I scumread him)

So I've gone from 'null' to being a scumread.

What is your case against me then? Seems a bit like OMGYS.

[Luca Blight]

If it's OMGUS then why it's only you and not, say, TGGC or Toolenduso?

I have gone from being a null read to a scumread purely as a result of voting for/suspecting you.

Is this not the case?

The others didn't push their case particularly, whereas I questioned you, making you all defensive.

[Luca Blight]

@Luca Blight

I've explained it countless times already. I don't consider defending myself or avoiding suspicion worth anything during D1.
I spend my time trying to find the scum and my brain is busy with that rather than looking for excuses and avoiding my own lynch.
If I'll get lynched at least my words will have more weight as confirmed townie.

You got caught for placing a vote on me when you felt it's safe and you'll score an easy lynch while providing echoes of others' reasons to vote me as your justification.

An easier lynch would have been Shiro. I voted for you for the reasons I said, valid reasons, and have given you ample opportunity to convince me you are Town and Shiro isn't.

Is this not the case?

[Luca Blight]

What?

You were both at L-2 when I voted, if you were at L-1 it would have been a hammer.

If you read back you will find I was swaying more to vote Shiro, but was reluctant slightly for the reasons I said, so asked Tool to sell me on your lynch. I thought there was a worthwhile case against you, so backed it to see what would come of it, and have been very fair in encouraging you to explain yourself, even when you were lining up your own hammer from your scumread.

[Luca Blight]

Luca you got to admit though 724 was the towniest thing in the game so far

I will look deeper into it a minute, on the surface it appears so.

I am still bothered by a few certain things, but am thinking Nether isn't the best lynch for tonight.

Nether denies his scumread of me being OMGUS, when his reasoning for voting me is....voting him, apparently at the 'optimal time'.

I'm starting to give him the benefit of the doubt on this (as well as the misreps) and thinking he is just a scattergun Townie, who maybe doesn't think before posting most of the time.

[Luca Blight]

I'm wondering why are you trying so hard to convince me into changing my mind while you should be rather trying to convince others into lynching me if

you're so sure I'm scum

.
What exactly are you wanting to hear from me? If I'm scum my words aren't any useful for the town. I'll lie and deceive. So why?
Or are you scum who knows that when you'll lynch me and I'll flip town then the town investigative will check you at night and find out you're scum?

Also, you were swaying more to vote Shiro

only by your own words

. You can say "halva" for the thousand times but it won't make a sweet taste in your mouth.
You faked suspecting him and still voting me and trying to get me lynched hard. I don't see any reason to consider you really suspecting Shiro.

Stop fucking misrepping me, think before you post.

I reiterate, scumhunting as great, as long as you're not targeted, eh? I agree with Farrar's earlier point that there are no great wagons. Shiro is the scummiest, there are things not right with your play but I'm probably gonna give you the benefit of the doubt for now. I'm gonna reassess before committing my vote for today.

[Luca Blight]

Luca looks like a good lynch.

VOTE: Luca

What possible reason?

Still think Shiro is obv Town?

[Luca Blight]

@Luca would you perhaps consider voting VDA ?

If to avoid a no-lynch, perhaps.

I'd be happier with a Shiro or Toffee wagon at the moment I think. I'm gonna do some reading before making a decision.

[Luca Blight]

Luca looks like a good lynch.

VOTE: Luca

What possible reason?

Still think Shiro is obv Town?

Yeah, Shiro is town.

My biggest town-read.

Nether's 'case' against me seems to hinge on me and Shiro being a scumteam, so what's your excuse?

[Luca Blight]

@Luca Blight

Scumhunting is great as long as it is genuine.

Examples of genuine-scumhunting based votes:
toolenduso voting TGGC
me voting TGGC
me voting Shiro
JohnnyFarrar voting Shiro
VDA voting Shiro
toolenduso voting me

Providing the case consisting of self made points, voting without trying to look non-suspicious.
Your vote is not based on genuine scumhunting.

@VictorDeAngelo

I find his voting pattern weird but I can't understand what is wrong with it at this point.
I have a feeling that it comes from town perspective though.

If I wanted to vote without getting into an argument with you, I could have easily done so. Why did I initiate a debate with you? To ascertain a better read, which has worked not only for me, but for Tool who also now has a better read of you.

If you don't consider that 'genuine' scumhunting then we will have to agree to disagree.

[Luca Blight]

Luca looks like a good lynch.

VOTE: Luca

What possible reason?

Still think Shiro is obv Town?

Yeah, Shiro is town.

My biggest town-read.

Nether's 'case' against me seems to hinge on me and Shiro being a scumteam, so what's your excuse?

You look scummy?

Is that good enough? Man, I hope so.

Scummier than someone claiming Shiro is obv Town but then refusing to give any reasoning not only for that, but in anything you do?

Dear Lord.

[Luca Blight]

I'm willing to compromise on Shiro.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Shiro

I believe that is

L-1

.

[Luca Blight]

Shiro of Toffee are the only ones I am happy to compromise on at this stage, no-one was interested in my earlier Toffee wagon.

[Luca Blight]

Well my reads haven't changed

TGGC and VDA
or
GiF or Luca and VDA

Although farrar going MIA is kinda odd but I still town read him

Do you have any particular reason for suspecting Victor, or is it only to do with 'lurking'?

[Luca Blight]

I can't help but get townvibes from the last few Shiro posts.

If Shiro was scum he would have had an easy opportunity to target Nether given the circumstances.

I'm gonna stick my neck out and say Shiro is Town.

Compromise time part 2!

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Victor

[Luca Blight]

If Shiro wasn't a good vote

Ah but Shiro is not a good vote

Shiro, why's luca leaning town? (And so help me if you say you don't explain townreads)

His whole approach to Nether during there argument was really townie as much as I disagreed with his points I cannot see it as scum driven.

Most of his posts have seemed like genuine scum hunting to me

You said you agreed with my points earlier, didn't you?

[Luca Blight]

Not crazy into it. If Shiro wasn't a good vote I'd be more upset with point 2, but she is. And lurking and PoE are weak as shit.

So Nether's not happening. Not sure what happened there. Not incredibly sad about it.

Lynching GiF would be useless unless that slot is magically scum.

Luca? Has anyone made a case on him? He's weirding me out

Weirding you out in what sense?

Have you caught up with that has happened?

[Luca Blight]

More or less. Did a bit of skimming because there had been 8 pages since last night.

You switched your vote twice since I was on last night. What's the reason for both switches? (For transparency's sake my thought process right now is you're attempting to make a no lynch happen through a bunch of wagon switches.)

Nah, that's not my intention at all, but I appreciate you being transparent with me.

I was initially siding towards Shiro for an accumulation of reasons throughout the game. I noticed Tool was still pushing Nether so I asked him to sell me on it. I listened and thought there was something there perhaps. I had a quick look through Nether's posts and saw there were some things that didn't sit right with me. I considered Shiro and Toffee to perhaps be the scummiest on the surface, but almost too obvious, and I wanted to ascertain a better read of Nether, hence my vote and subsequent questioning. Through all the misrepping, hypocrisy and lies in some of Nether's responses, I saw enough to suggest he isn't the best lynch for tonight.

I, as much as anyone, want to avoid a no-lynch, hence why I switched to Shiro with that as the reason. Shiro's response and subsequent readslist felt genuine to me, and I switched to an alternative, Victor, who I believe is an achievable lynch, and has given me little reason to townread him out of the possible options.

As you said before, there are no great wagons.

[Luca Blight]

My scumdar just nearly exploded reading that ^^

Get a new one that works properly.

[Luca Blight]

This one works fine.

We should lynch you to see that what I'm saying is true.

Everyone knows you want me lynched, don't keep repeating yourself.

Either give reasoning or pipe down.

[Luca Blight]

Nooooo. I have to stop these wagons on town. It's against my win-con to allow town to get lynched.

No-one's going to take your opinion seriously when what you do comes across as trolling, meaning you are indirectly playing against your wincon, if you are town.

[Luca Blight]

How about we just lynch Toffee? Even if he is Town, he is a nuisance and there are none more favourable wagons.

[Luca Blight]

Policy lynching in a newbie game is pretty low. He just doesn't know any better.

I would normally agree, but I don't see any great alternatives, and believe there is a fair chance he could flip scum.

[Luca Blight]

Toffee, wouldn't it technically be you OMGUS'ing me, as I voted for you first?

I think I have more valid reasoning for your lynch than the other way around at any rate.

[Luca Blight]

Testing waters for my lynch.

Noted.

Yep, because it is nearing the lynch deadline and we need to compromise, and with your trolling I think it is more than acceptable in the circumstances.

[Luca Blight]

I'm not trolling.

What do you call it, then?

[Luca Blight]

I'm not trolling.

What do you call it, then?

I call it playing mafia.

So you are mafia, then?

[Luca Blight]

Yep, scum slip right there.

[Luca Blight]

Holy shit.

You're running with that yeah?

What, are you deciding to play srs now?

I guess he meant playing mafia game?

Nice one, Sherlock.

[Luca Blight]

Grasping at straws Luca. You want me lynched that bad?

You know if I don't get you lynched today I'll just get you lynched tomorrow.

How do you intend on getting me lynched Tomorrow?

Why are you assuming you'll survive the Night-Kill? If I was scum I could just take you out and save myself from Towngenius Toffee?

Scum slip.

[Luca Blight]

Nah, I won't die tonight.

I'll be around to lynch you tomorrow. Don't you worry about that.

I thought that was my choice, being scum?

Are you admitting you are intending to push a mislynch tomorrow?

The mask is slipping.

[Luca Blight]

Johnny's master list of dumb things that don't happen nearly as much as everyone in newbie games thinks:

1. Buddying
2. Misrepping
3. Scumslips

NETHER TELL ME I'M DYING

Usually I would agree with point 2, but read my interactions with Nether and you'll find he has misrepped the shit out of me this game.

[Luca Blight]

A Toffee/Victor lynch isn't happening, so back to compromise 1 we go.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Shiro

L-1

[Luca Blight]

Jesus Christ.

Can we lynch this fucking scum already. (@Luca obv)

You're tedious. Try and convince them and maybe they will listen to you, otherwise kindly stfu.

[Luca Blight]

Luca looking for any wagon that isn't him.

He don't give a shit who gets lynched.

Let's flash wagon Luca.

It'll be fun.

As I've said there isn't a great wagon either way. I would prefer a lynch on you just because you're tedious and anti-town with your play, but that isn't happening.

One minute I'm trying my best to get a no-lynch, next minute I'm lynching anyone I can. Brilliant.

[Luca Blight]

This is the worst game I have ever played.

We only have 5 people here, so we all have to agree on a lynch unless we decide on someone who already has a wagon. Nether and Shiro are my top two picks, but would compromise on *sigh* Blue if we have to.

Thoughts.

I pretty much agree, with the top bit as well as the bottom.

[Luca Blight]

Nether, just say what you have to say regarding Toffee.

Why the unvote?

[Luca Blight]

I say we just lynch Toffee and get it done with. I literally don't have a clue who is mafia at the moment, neither does anyone else by the look of it.

[Luca Blight]

I can assure you I am Town, Nether. I would be willing to compromise on Victor.

[Luca Blight]

Let's do it, then.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Victor

[Luca Blight]

I get scumvibes off Luca's survivalistic attitude. He tries to convince me into voting VDA to save himself.
That's why I'm tentative to agree to VDA's lynch over possible Luca's lynch (if Toolenduso will come)

I am Town, I know this but don't know Victor's alignment, therefore I know he is more likely to be scum than me.

What you're probably sensing is impatience because it is late where I am too, and I too need to get up early, and I have no idea who is mafia.

[Luca Blight]

Well, I can only say that I consider Shiro town and thus not willing to compromise lynch him.

What has made you change your mind so drastically?

[Luca Blight]

Luca answer the question.

Why Vic is a better lynch?

If you read my posts you will see I have no idea who is mafia at the moment, so it is futile asking me that question.

We as a Town haven't done awfully well today, I take some responsibility for that. My two scum reads earlier where Nether and Shiro, but I now feel they are probably Town. I have no idea about Victor.

[Luca Blight]

Want me to self-vote?

Technically not playing against my wincon if avoiding a no-lynch helps the town.

[Luca Blight]

Sounds like a plan, Farrar.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Toffee

[Luca Blight]

Luca, you're so glad to throw your previous best lynch option (VDA) and go for another just to save yourself? I just can't agree with that.

Where did I say he was the best lynch option? I said I hadn't a clue what he was.

Toffee was always my preferred choice. Either we compromise or we don't at this stage.

[Luca Blight]

Plan A - Farrar's plan, hopefully a lynch on Toffee.
Plan B - I will self-vote and you can lynch me right now.

Make a decision.

[Luca Blight]

Scum - Luca, Johnny

So, I lied. I'm awake.

Look at the first two people to try and start my wagon after specifically stating it was bad to try and wagon VDA when he wasn't here t defend himself.

Sheep me and vote Luca.

Seriously though, I got like half an hour.

Such genius.

[Luca Blight]

I would vote Farrar to avoid a no-lynch. He isn't my preferred choice as his play seems town-motivated, but he is obviously an experienced player so could be scum, as could anyone.

[Luca Blight]

Want Nether or Shiro, will compromise on Vic or GiF. I want this day over so I can go drink some bleach.

GIF? Now there's an idea. His posting has been a little suspect this game.

I think I would slightly prefer a GIF lynch to a Victor one.

[Luca Blight]

That's real nice, Luca, but there aren't enough votes to lynch me. How 'bout you pick something that's possible.

@Nether - If there is a wagon of people not named Luca that gets Luca up to L-1, sure.

I know, Farrar, I was just answering the question being asked of me.

[Luca Blight]

Luca....is there anyone you wouldn't Lynch ?

From yourself to the still waiting from replace in IC you would lynch everyone XD

Erm, maybe Tool?

What's best, voting a slight town read or a no-lynch? It's a tough one.

[Luca Blight]

I have an ever so slight feeling all five of us here could be Town.

I found GIF's posts a little suspect, if I had to guess at scum it would probably be him, but it's not much.

[Luca Blight]

The things you say make no sense Blue. Explain it to me real slow, like you would if I was dumber than you.

You were saying you wont go for a Vic lynch since he can neither claim nor defend himself yet when Blue left you are ok with lynching blue who could neither claim nor defend himself

That came across at genuine frustration as Blue had seemingly f*cked us over anyway.

The fact he is now willing to lynch the likes of Victor and GIF perhaps needs explaining, however.

[Luca Blight]

As I have said, I am not unwilling to vote Farrar if need be.

Is there any reason to vote him over anyone else, other than us being a potential scumteam?

[Luca Blight]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Victor

[Luca Blight]

Hold on, now Tool is here we can reconsider and lynch whoever, can't we?

UNVOTE:

[Luca Blight]

Vic hasn't given me much reason to townread him, and GIF's early Townreads looked a bit forced. That's it, really.

[Luca Blight]

That Vic vote from Farrar coming just as Tool arrived is strange, and makes me suspect him a little more.

[Luca Blight]

Nether, I have clearly given you the option of my lynch quite freely. I am feeling increasingly impatient and want to go to bed, so want to get a lynch done. If it's not me, great, as I know I'm Town. If it is me then fine, that's life.

[Luca Blight]

Blue, it seems like you went for Johnny because he didn't want to lynch Luca. That doesn't seem like great reasoning to me.

I'm not sure why Luca was on the table as a lynch option to begin with.

Who would be up for a Shiro lynch?

Something to do with voting Nether at the 'optimal time' which is a load of bollocks, but there you go.

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: Shiro

[Luca Blight]

Likelihood of a Farrar/Tool scumteam?

I don't feel great about this lynch actually. Let me think for a second.

UNVOTE:

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: Farrar

[Luca Blight]

I have a gut feeling Shiro is Town, that is basically it.

[Luca Blight]

I voted on impulse, then reconsidered.

I have just wanted to get a lynch done, but as there is support for a Farrar lynch currently, I fee there is perhaps more chance of him flipping scum than Shiro.

[Luca Blight]

as there is support for a Farrar lynch currently, I fee there is perhaps more chance of him flipping scum than Shiro.

Is it me or is this completely counter-logical?

You probably mis-interpreted.

I didn't mean because of there being support to lynch Farrar, that makes him more likely to flip scum, I meant as the option is there, I think he has more chance of flipping scum over Shiro, if that makes sense. It's late and I'm tired.

[Luca Blight]

What I basically meant was - I have been in the mode of 'lynch anyone' for a while now, because of how tonight has gone on here. I voted Shiro on impulse, then saw there was a possibility of a Farrar lynch. The disturbing possibility of a Tool/Farrar scumteam entered my head so I unvoted and reconsidered. Then I decided Farrar was the more likely to flip scum.

Does that make sense?

[Luca Blight]

@JohnnyFarrar

What do you think on Luca's lynch option at this point?

Him voting Shiro was weird. I'd vote him.

Not when I have just explained it, but if it saves your bacon, eh?

Hey ho.

[Luca Blight]

I thought Shiro might be cop from a couple of things she said. At least I feel not as bad about lynching Farrar now, given the alternative option was the cop anyway.

[Luca Blight]

@Luca Blight

Why did you vote Shiro in #1093 if you thought he might be cop?
Even worse, it was that "flashwagon" and you just voted him without any uncertainity.

I think I explained that already.

[Luca Blight]

Just so it's clear:

Likelihood of a Farrar/Tool scumteam?

I don't feel great about this lynch actually. Let me think for a second.

UNVOTE:

I have a gut feeling Shiro is Town, that is basically it.

I voted on impulse, then reconsidered.

I have just wanted to get a lynch done, but as there is support for a Farrar lynch currently, I fee there is perhaps more chance of him flipping scum than Shiro.

as there is support for a Farrar lynch currently, I fee there is perhaps more chance of him flipping scum than Shiro.

Is it me or is this completely counter-logical?

You probably mis-interpreted.

I didn't mean because of there being support to lynch Farrar, that makes him more likely to flip scum, I meant as the option is there, I think he has more chance of flipping scum over Shiro, if that makes sense. It's late and I'm tired.

What I basically meant was - I have been in the mode of 'lynch anyone' for a while now, because of how tonight has gone on here. I voted Shiro on impulse, then saw there was a possibility of a Farrar lynch. The disturbing possibility of a Tool/Farrar scumteam entered my head so I unvoted and reconsidered. Then I decided Farrar was the more likely to flip scum.

Does that make sense?

I voted on impulse because of the situation we had been and how late it was, then I remembered about Shiro, hence the 'gut feeling' thing. I wasn't certain but that is why I preferred the Farrar lynch to Shiro.

[Luca Blight]

From PoE I think there is a decent chance GoodMorning could be scum. The other one maybe between Tool/Victor.

[Luca Blight]

I want to lynch VDA or Luca today I think.

First it was thought Shiro and me were a scumteam, then Farrar and me, who's my partner in crime this time?

I clearly have no alliance with any other player in this game, and would like to think my actions yesterday before the lynch wouldn't really make sense from a scum perspective.

[Luca Blight]

I didn't try to look like anything - that was the point. That doesn't mean I can't point it out that if you look back, you won't find an awful lot of scum motivation behind my posts yesterday, particularly near the lynch.

If I was scum, who would make sense to be my scum partner at this point?

[Luca Blight]

I had a bad feeling about this Doc claim all along, and what he's saying here clearly doesn't make sense.

VOTE: TGGC -

L-1

Toffee could be the scum partner.

[Luca Blight]

I think it's pretty obvious the Mafia Goon/Roleblocker in the example PM's is only so it doesn't give the set-up away, of course you know what your partner's role is. Hence why in the Roleblock example pm, it just says Goon, because that is already evident by the possible set-up grid.

TGGC is scum and Toffee is probably his partner.

[Luca Blight]

I think it's pretty obvious the Mafia Goon/Roleblocker in the example PM's is only so it doesn't give the set-up away

I agree with this part. But how do you _KNOW_, the mod sends a different PM? Give me an explanation how you can _KNOW_ that. It is impossible to _KNOW_ that. I don't see how you or Netherspite can _KNOW_ that without actually reading the PM. I do not think a townie could be so sure about that, so he would start attacking someone.

@BlueBloodedToffee:
I think its Netherspite and Luca Blight right now.

I know it because it's fucking common sense. Look at the Roleblocker example PM, notice how it says the partner is definitely a Goon? That's because it is already evident in the set-up that that's the case. It makes zero sense for Bulbazak to send mafia a PM saying your partner is 'Mafia Goon/Roleblocker'. It makes no sense at all. For you to even entertain this idea is a sign of desperation.

[Luca Blight]

I know it because it's fucking common sense. Look at the Roleblocker example PM, notice how it says the partner is definitely a Goon?

YES I HAVE LOOKED. AND SO I SAID ONLY THE ROLEBLOCKER KNOWS FROM PM.

Why would only the Roleblocker know from PM? Do you not understand that the reason it didn't specify in the example Goon pm of the partner is because it would give away the set-up?

Of course you understand this, you are desperately trying to tunnel your way out, but you are in too deep. You have made you bed, scum, and must now lie in it.

[Luca Blight]

A very well-reasoned post by Tool there. Logically it probably makes sense to lynch TGGC Tomorrow, but it almost feels counter-intuitive not lynching someone who is almost definitely scum.

Tool and Nether are definitely Town imo, Victor probably Town as well. TGGC's scum parter is between GM and Toffee.

[Luca Blight]

I find it highly ironic how you accuse me of lining up your lynch when that is what you were constantly trying to do to me (and certain others) yesterday, and are now clearly doing it here, yet that makes me scummy and you not somehow.

You are obviously TGGC's partner. If by some chance you aren't and you're just terrible and OMGusing, it is probably GM by process of elimination. Lynch You/TGGC over the next two days and we probably win, if not then lynch GM and we can all celebrate a Town victory.

Your view on TGGC has been all over the place, by the way, which only solidifies my view that you are his partner.

[Luca Blight]

Toffee, I offered myself to be lynched at a time when you f*cked off and left us, and I was the only one that could be lynched at the time. No-one supported it, so I didn't do it, if they did, I would have done. I was happy to lynch everyone so who is my scum partner, then? Before you say Victor, look back and I was more than happy with a Victor lynch yesterday, although I now suspect he is Town. In my opinion TGGC is pretty much nailed on scum, you are probably his partner, if not then I think GM is. You can either see that as lining up lynches (which is actually what you are trying to do, you fucking hypocrite) or giving my clear, honest view on the situation.

Nether; I'm not too fussed who we lynch out of Toffee and TGGC today, because I think they are both scum. TGGC is the one I am most sure of, but as has been said it may make more sense to go for his partner first, who I believe to be Toffee. My vote remains on TGGC for now but I'm happy to switch to Toffee, depending on the consensus.

[Luca Blight]

Yu could at least give us some initial thoughts or something, GM. You can always expand on it later.

It feels as though you're using stalling tactics to give you time to think up something that won't make you look scummy.

[Luca Blight]

You*

[Luca Blight]

Tool - I don't think scum would 'certainly' kill TGGC tonight (if he iS Town, which I highly doubt), because it would be worth the risk, as if he isn't killed tonight he is almost certainly getting lynched Tomrrow.

That said, GM has had enough time now, so I'm going to switch votes until she gives me a reason not to.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: GM

[Luca Blight]

I don't know what to think about GM, tbh. I can see some Town motivation behind her post, but at the same time don't see how she can be townreading TGGC.

Tool trying to subtly push Victor's lynch doesn't sit right either.

@Tool -

You ask Nether to lay out his read of TGGC (even though it is pretty evident if you've been following the thread), could you do the same with your Victor read?

[Luca Blight]

Here is a summary for you:

Spoiler: If anybody else asks me to explain my read on Victor, I'm just going to point them to this post (unless he does something else scummy)

VDA -- Had his vote on Shiro going into the last-minute compromise session at the end of D1. Kept his vote there and didn't contribute much to the discussion. This looks like scum standing on the sidelines and keeping his vote in a safe place. It makes so much sense for scum to act this way in the position we were in at the end of D1.

PoE

Also, his first few catch-up posts did not demonstrate a mentality of seriously trying to find scum. His later catch-up posts did, but that can be explained by the fact that he made them after I had pointed out that I didn't like his first couple of catch-up posts.

Point 1) That's a fair point, and it does look scummy. I think if I was scum there in his position, however, I think it would look less conspicuous to just ride it out and go with the flow, particularly when he wasn't the main choice for the lynch anyway. The fact you by your own admission were going to push Shiro today over Victor suggests you perhaps lack conviction in this.

Point 2) Doesn't apply to me, because only Nether am I sure is Town.

Point 3) It can be hard to make catch-up posts with real content. You criticise him for it, and then when he produces better posts in future, you use this as a stick to beat him with? Bit of a lose-lose situation you put him in there.

Tool trying to subtly push Victor's lynch doesn't sit right either.

LOL this is actually me being more aggressive in pushing a lynch than I usually am. What's subtle about it?

You seemed to be testing the water for the lynch more than actively pushing it.

If Victor is scum, who is his partner?

[Luca Blight]

At one point (#896) he shows signs of being willing to compromise with town on a Luca lynch. The context of this post is important: earlier in that same page (#879), he resists BBT telling him to vote for Luca.

I think you misread Victor's #896 post; he wasn't showing signs of being willing to compromise on my lynch, he was responding to me saying we should lynch Toffee, saying he would but didn't see there being support for it, which is why he kept his vote on Shiro.

[Luca Blight]

^ Just realised Nether already pointed that out.

[Luca Blight]

Well I'm not going to pretend like Shiro would have been a good lynch. But are you really going to tell me that Johnny was a good lynch?

Johnny looked obviously town, your certainty of him being scum was based on reasons that did not warrant certainty and we should not have lynched him. I only did so in order to avoid no-lynching.

Today you are exhibiting the same amount of certainty for equally shallow reasons.

Now tell me why you're townreading VDA.

Sorry, but if he's was 'obviously town' why hammer? Peer pressure, or what?

Even though I was willing to lynch just about anyone at one point yesterday, I wouldn't lynch anyone I thought was 'obviously town'. I also don't remember you putting up much of a fight to save your obv town read. I actually read Farrar as Town myself, but not enough to justify a no-lynch.

[Luca Blight]

He put his vote on the top suspect among majority to make sure it's not a No Lynch.

I don't see anything wrong here.

Do you not see the scum explanation here or do you not believe it?

The scum explanation is that VDA was clinging to the safest wagon so as to minimize risk and maximize benefit for scum. Which makes a lot of sense for scum to do in that situation.

In the context of yesterday's lynch, with anyone being willing to vote for pretty much anyone, this argument of clinging to the 'safest wagon' doesn't wash.

You also wanted a Shiro lynch. I could just as easily argue you were going after the easy target, and then just went along with the compromise (even though you read him as obvtown).

Is there that big a difference between you and Victor in your roles in yesterday's lynch? Yes Victor left early, but is that necessarily a scumtell? I doubt it.

[Luca Blight]

@Victor:

Spoiler: Literally my thoughts on TGGC's slot as I went along

So the game opens up with Carli being pretty excited to play. This points away from VT since only weird people like me actually like playing VT. Given the claim this is kind of obvious, but we'll get there.
Next she gets in a mild tiff with GIF after failing to answer his questions. Given the nature of the questions and the early timing, this is something that could either be textbook newbScum or overcautious Town PR.
In the next bit we get this:

Why would I think a speedlynch would be likely if I told GIF

I disagree with D1 lynches due to lack of information

?

Which is either "I come from a site with short deadlines" or "I like PRs". If the latter, implies having a PR herself.
There's a fair amount of explanation on reads when they come up, and I like the question to Shiro in 92; it's not the best-directed but there seems to be some Town thought process in there.
Tangent: I don't like Nether's 95. I don't see any attempts to evade suspicion in Carli's filter thus far.

Also, note everyone else lurking allowing us to fight among ourselves.

This is an easy thing for Scum to say and gain towncred for, but from newbs it tends to be a light towntell.
Then TGGC replaces in. I like the replacing in readslist despite the fact that there're a few too many scumreads there could well be an argument to be made that nobody was doing anything particularly useful at the time.
His handling of himself in 270 and 273 reads super Town to me. Really down to brass tacks, no faffing about.
Nether's continual attempts to get him to explain Carli, whose thought processes TGGC could not possibly know, are incredibly iffy.
And then after that it's all WELL THE ROLE PM DOESN'T SAY YES IT DOES NO IT DOESN'T and that doesn't really read indicative to me.

So overall I lean Town, and further find that their play reconciles with the idea of a PR.

1) I don't think there's much in your 'excited to play = pr' theory. She also bailed out, which by the same theory would suggest the opposite.
Did you see the part where she claimed VT? What do you think of that?

2) I don't understand why you thought she was a pr from Carli saying "I disagree with D1 lynches due to lack of information".

3) What did you like about the replacing in readslist? It looked scummy to me. I'm also not seeing what is so town about the posts you quoted. Are you able to go more in-depth on that, or was it just a feeling you got from them?

I know you said you don't want to talk about the role pm business, but seeing as that's a big reason he is being suspected currently, I'm wondering why you have made no reference to that. His point of view on the whole thing doesn't make sense, and the way he is pushing it and not admitting he is wrong comes across very scummy to me.

[Luca Blight]

Carli was more worried at that time about being lynched rather than night-killed. As potential lynch bait being night-killed was unlikely anyway, so it made no sense to claim VT there if she was actually the doc.

You think someone arguing with all his might against something that any reasonable person can see is common sense is something he would do regardless of alignment?

Just look at his reaction to it, and his insistence and apparent ignorance. I'm not buying it.

[Luca Blight]

I don't think GM is the best lynch for today. I will listen to Tool's reasons for wanting a Victor lynch, but for now I'll be sticking with what I think is the safest bet of hitting scum today.


UNVOTE:

VOTE: TGGC

[Luca Blight]

Oh yeh, I didn't notice.

I always refer back to the first page for the current VC but it hadn't been updated.

[Luca Blight]

Nether is at L-1 it says in that vote count, lol.

You saw nothing.

[Luca Blight]

I read Tool's argument, and he made some fair points. I would be willing to switch votes potentially, but I'm convinced TGGC is scum and I'm not sure I see Victor as making sense as his partner.

I will have to have a look at that a bit later when I have time.

[Luca Blight]

UNVOTE:

I will have to read over this properly, so I'll take TGGC off L-1 for now.

[Luca Blight]

GM - does the fact that TGGC has been so inactive, giving us so little information and basically commenting only to save his own skin and on the role pm business (which you yourself criticised) not cause you to scumread him, even a little bit?

[Luca Blight]

As I said earlier, I read and considered Tool's argument on Victor, and he made some fair points, but what I think is important right now is to confirm TGGC as scum and go from there, because this information directly influences who I think the other scummer could be.

Let's just get this lynch done.


VOTE: TGGC

L-1

[Luca Blight]

GM - have you ever taken into account a player's experience/skill level when trying to ascertain a read of them?

[Luca Blight]

As far as I'm concerned, TGGC is scum.

It's just a question of whether his partner is Victor, Toffee, GM or Tool.

I've liked some of Tool's posts, and he has generally come across as Town, but having skimmed his meta this is how he generally comes across when he is mafia. He is making an effort to save TGGC from this lynch, while admitting there is a good chance he could still be scum.

I'm not sure I see a Victor/TGGC team. Possible with a few distancing tactics thrown in, I will review it Tomorrow if TGGC flips scum and I'm still alive.

I've gone off the idea more of Toffee being his partner because he seems like he genuinely wants him lynched right now, but could just be bussing.

GM is certainly a possibility. GIF read Carli as Town early on when she was under pressure, and I, like Nether, am slightly skeptical as to GM townreading TGGC currently given how he has played.

Right now I'd say it's between GM and Tool for his partner. I will need to look more in-depth at Tool's scum meta.

[Luca Blight]

So TGGC only question is about the setup. I guess BBT is about to join me in this vote.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TGGC

This is the main reason I don't see a Victor/TGGC scum team. Not just the vote itself, more the timing of it; being the first one to put TGGC under pressure this day and first on the wagon, and encouraging another to hop on.

Victor has also repeatedly pointed out TGGC's inactivity since, but as I said all this could just be good distancing tactics.

[Luca Blight]

Lol, I just realised that GM isn't voting anyone or pushing any sort of wagon, despite believing the guy at L-1 to be Town.

GM, what you playing at? Who should we lynch today if not TGGC?

[Luca Blight]

Just reflecting on it now, I am going to narrow it down to Tool/GM being TGGC's scum partner.

Gut feeling is saying Tool at the moment, but I'm interested by GM's approach to this game; she seems to be giving reads/answers just to satisfy the people asking the questions, but as I noted above she isn't actually doing anything productive in terms of pushing another wagon or anything.

It just seems strange to me.

[Luca Blight]

Yeah, I acknowledged that you thought TGGC was likely scum, but given his perilous position I think your current stance on him would make sense from the perspective of you and him being a scumteam. You can see why that crosses my mind, can't you?

I was willing to consider switching to Victor, but the reason I can't is purely for the fact I am almost certain TGGC is scum, and Victor doesn't make as much sense as his partner as you or GM perhaps do.

[Luca Blight]

I think the confirmation that TGGC is indeed scum is what we need to properly assess who his partner could be.

Everything in this game right now depends on TGGC's flip. In the unlikely event he is Town, that changes everything too.

[Luca Blight]

I would be amazed if Nether is scum. I can't see it personally.

[Luca Blight]

GM to catch up.

Hopefully she will hurry up and we can get this day finished,

[Luca Blight]

GM can catch up over night, just hammer please.

GM has no excuses not to be ready for tomorrow.

[Luca Blight]

If we're wrong then TGGC only has himself to blame. Perfectly reasonable grounds for lynching someone.

[Luca Blight]

I think GM is probably the other scum, but I will take a bit of time to reflect.

[Luca Blight]

Is GM due a prod?

Her inactivity is killing this game.

[Luca Blight]

Fuck it.

VOTE: GM

[Luca Blight]

L-1

[Luca Blight]

Blue is certainly a possibility, but GM is my gut feeling.

I think her townread of TGGC was unreasonable - I tried to see it from every angle, but could not see how she, as an experienced player, could have have arrived at that opinion.

She has stalled the fuck out of this game, has had no clear direction in her play, no scumreads. If she is town then she ought to be disappointed with how she has performed.

I said yesterday if she hasn't caught up properly by day two there is no excuse, and I stand by that. If she comes back with something decent then maybe I'll consider unvoting, otherwise I can't see past her, despite the decent case you have against Toffee.

[Luca Blight]

by day three*

[Luca Blight]

So, I'd just like to throw this out there. If you guys want to lynch scum today, good. We can work together and lynch scum.

However, I don't really expect that to happen. TGGC's flip probably reinforces the beliefs many already had that I am TGGC's partner. If I survive today and we lynch town, I will be a liability in LyLo because town will still suspect me as TGGC's partner and scum will be able to use that to their advantage.

Also, we've earned an extra mislynch by lynching scum.

So my proposal is basically this. If the majority of the player list excluding me thinks that I'm scum, you should just go ahead and lynch me so I'm not there as an easy mislynch in LyLo.

That being said, I'm not going to vote myself because I don't believe you should ever do that as town.

Why did you feel the need to post this, Tool?

I wasn't particularly thinking you were scum following the flip. It seems like paranoia, and as if you're trying overly hard to appear town, and has me doubting my read on you now.

[Luca Blight]

I mean, Tool, if you are town then saying that is really bad.

By saying you are an easy mislynch and a liability in lylo makes it a reality. I wasn't having these thoughts about you before, but they are now in my head.

It feels like you're playing mindgames, and I don't get why town would do that at this stage, when we're seemingly in a healthy position. If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't focus on the possibility of my mislynch occurring, I would only have my eyes set on finding the remaining scum.

Your post disturbs me.

[Luca Blight]

By PoE I had written you and Victor off as Town, and now I've noticed that part of your post, it has me doubting myself.

You say you don't expect us to find scum today, why is that? Were you that convinced of being mislynched yourself? You seemed to have conviction in your Toffee read, but that undermines it a bit.

[Luca Blight]

I don't think there was as much suspicion on you as you're making out. I suspected you a little at one point, but then considered GM's weird play and the case against Toffee and thought I could rule you out as probably town, now I'm not so sure.

I mean, you have that case on Toffee which as you say is pretty damning, but expect yourself to get lynched over him? And over GM who has given us nothing but a weak defence of scum?

I just got a bad feeling from it. I don't see something like that coming from town at this stage, as I said it feels like mind games. It leaves me unsure of whether we should call your bluff and lynch you now or go for the more obvious choices.

Either way, GM needs to weigh in.

[Luca Blight]

There is some reason for you to think that, fair enough, but given how dodgy GM and Toffee look I don't see why you would be as convinced as you were for being lynched, that you felt the need to pre-prepare the stuff about being a liability at lylo, and that we should lynch you now if we're still unsure etc.

When there are other clear options for the lynch, why, as a townie, would you offer yourself up at this stage? There is clearly as much doubt surrounding the other two I have mentioned, meaning they would also be as much a liability in lylo for the same reasons.

@Mod, I believe GM is due a prod now.

[Luca Blight]

Ok.

I'm not sure what to think about it, tbh. I still think there is more chance of GM/Toffee being scum than you.

If you are town, though, then saying what you said is not good at all. It is essentially WIFOM mind games and just muddies the water.

[Luca Blight]

She hasn't posted for seven days. Take away three days for the night, that leaves four days of day time since she last posted.

I assumed this was how it worked anyway, maybe it gets reset at the start of each day.

[Luca Blight]

So you're Town, then?

Well that's shit. I'm probably going to die overnight. Victor needs to be suspected for that quickhammer.

[Luca Blight]

Yes, good win.

I called the GM/TGGC scumteam a while back, and had Carli pegged as scum on day one so I'm pleased with that.

[Luca Blight]

Btw Bulb, in the Newbie queue you said this game resulted in a Mafia victory, lol.

Fixed.