Newbie 1691 - Game Over

[SummerInWonderland]

VOTE: UpTOOlate

I haven't the faintest idea what I'm doing

[SummerInWonderland]

1. I'm not too sure. I mean we obviously seek to get rid of the mafias but other than that I'm not too sure.
2. Being sneaky!!!! Trying to look like townies right
3. I'm not really sure, I don't have really any information to go off.

[SummerInWonderland]

3. ok my gut reqaction is SIW being scum or at least scummy. imo u prolly have some idea of what you are doing if you use a gif and vote in your first post where you also say how confused you but thats just me.

I know how to use bbcodes. More on topic: I don't like how Aatami throws shade my direction in my post without actually committing to a vote on me. he seems like hes being sneaky

We have two weeks until deadline and knowing how to post a picture shouldn't be scummy. Town should be looking for actual evidence. It sounds like you know more than you let on because you're scared to actually vote me

vote: aatami

I don't mean to be mean but I think he might be the bad guy. I don't have much to go on but this is my best guess for right now

[SummerInWonderland]

oops I missed this last page.
I don't overly like how Aeronaut is picking at KAAG's posting for sounding too good. I'd rather go for someone who sounds sketchy at the start than too good at the start
Yaye UTL saw what I saw !

[SummerInWonderland]

I don't mean to be mean but I think he might be the bad guy. I don't have much to go on but this is my best guess for right now

That's not mean, that's scumhunting!

hehe trying to find scum like


(I will stop with the gifs after this one !)

[SummerInWonderland]

The top part of this post is actually a really good point. Granted, I feel like there are a few people doing that, but I'm not a big fan of aatami throwing mad shade without really committing.

Who else is doing this? I haven't seen anything else like it maybe I'm missing something?
Also I am curious (and curiouser) why did you put me in the null section? with the two people who haven't really posted.
Also what makes aatami less worth pushing than YawnAngel?

[SummerInWonderland]

I had thought that someone else was doing it, but I guess I was wrong. My bad!

You're in the null section because I don't have a feeling on you either way yet.

They're both worth pushing; but YA did a lot more things that I deemed to look fake / forced.

I don't like how you abandoned on that idea so fast. You are the experienced player here and you have already missed one thing by saying other people were throwing shade without comittment. But the thing is you agreed with me that it was a good point but backed off because you said other people were doing it. Now you say no other people were doing it but you still aren't voting Aatami. I don't understand this part because you think hes scum because he is in your list. Why is he number 2?
You also forgot to say something about Ryu when he really has not made a real post about game content only some stuff that didn't really make sense. I don't understand what you could be seeing as so good in him when he hasn't really contributed or is him not contributing much the good thing about him??? Just now you didn't really say why he was town either can you explain that?

vote aeronaut

This whole situation with you missing stuff and not being consistent feels really sketchy!!
Yawning angel looks weird he is posting strange theories and this is my first game I'm having a hard time understanding YawningAngel I don't see why town would be pressuring people this early. I really am confused on his uptoolate vote because I feel like the heart/head thing was more philosophical than gamey. I think Yawning Angel needs to clear this up for me because I am confused by him.

[SummerInWonderland]

I didn't understand why yawning would pressure you. I couldn't find a hard reason to so I don't know why he was.
Oh sorry haha
VOTE: aeronaut

[SummerInWonderland]

I think you discredited me because you said other people were throwing shade other than Aatami without committing and you lied about that (or made a mistake) which you confessed too. I thought with that part no longer discreditting me you would see my point as more valid but you didnt...? I guess we all make mistakes like that... okay I see now what you mean by yawning, you just think hes worse for ~reasons. I dont have a read on Rio really right now. His last post didn't really make any sense to me

[SummerInWonderland]

I was not trying to misrepresent you! I was just trying to make sense of what I saw as potentially sketchy!
I was looking more for clarity, you got pretty defensive with that post?

[SummerInWonderland]

I'm really confused what you think I'm lying about with Aatami.

I'm not saying you are lying about Aatami! I was pointing out you said other people were doing what Aatami was doing. When I asked you about this you said you made a mistake! thats okay if you were I was just trying to analyze it. I feel like you got defensive with me when I was just trying to understand the situation.
In two different situations you misread a post and got super defensive.

Aeronaut
#9 Possible quick buddy attempt? Or well, maybe just being friendly. Likely the latter

You think I'm buddying UTL? No, she's just my friend.

Here you did it again. Heybox said more than likely you were just being friendly, and you still got super defensive about it being a buddying attempt. You seem super on edge and defensive, and your attitude isn't really what I anticipated an IC doing. You've already made a few mistakes (saying other people did what Aatami did). I'm not trying to accuse you of things, but your defensive attitude is making it hard. I haven't really said my reads on people because you keep putting yourself dead center in my spotlight with shifty posts
@UTL what are your thoughts on Aeronaut? To me these are just little things but I want to make sure I understand as much as I can.

[SummerInWonderland]

KickAssAndGiggle I am just trying to go for things I understand. I don't really understand everything that is going on with Yawning and Ryu, so I just went with what I felt was strongest.

[SummerInWonderland]

Can I ask you why Aeronaut is town? to me he's null, I really don't understand. With your help maybe I could get a new perspective?

[SummerInWonderland]

mhsmith0 I just mean that always putting a lot of pressure on all the time could cause chaos or make everyone on edge! like the case with UTL and yawing I read it as him pressuring her over the heart/head idea.I didn't overly understand the pressure so that is why I didn't think it should be applied. This is my first game so honestly I am not sure how much pressure should be applied and stuff but I think if it was done all the time for all reasons (like all the small ones) it would be overwhelming! I see the problems that you had with my post! I guess I was being kinda vague. I voted aeronaut cuz I thought I found a mess up and thought pressure should be applied. I guess overall pressure can be good and bad?

[SummerInWonderland]

mhsmith0 I can totally see where you are coming from with this. I also would prefer to earn a town read than just to come off as newbie town. its fair to say that I need to earn it not just go with my obvious newbie approach? (which I isn't a bad thing, I don't think) with that being said I do hope my thoughts will be respected just as much as an SE.

[SummerInWonderland]

I just thought he was being a bit dismissive of me (that's where I had my problem) at one of my points and when I mentioned something he said I shouldn't misrepresent and I don't believe I did that. I guess its my fault to expect a certain things from an IC. I read it as defensive.
You're right with that it just wasn't what I anticipated!
This is just small details and at first I thought this had to do with his alignment but when KAGG explained his read to me about Aero I have changed my mind. I guess I just wasn't expecting a mistake and felt like I was being dismissed. I kinda wished he was posting a bit more! I just wanted clarity overall
on a separate note! right now I am not too sure on what I should be doing to help, I have a lot of people in the null section because I don't feel like there is enough to go on for quite a few people.

[SummerInWonderland]

Hey guys, I haven't posted in a while. Yesterday I was very sick and couldn't put the time into this and I am busy today but tonight I will post about game!

[SummerInWonderland]

Hey guys! I think I have some reads now!
Okay I am going to start with my strongest town read.

town

Smith-I think you are trying extremely hard and really trying to get to the bottom of things.You are constantly scumhunting and while you post lots of walls, they are jam packed with actual content. I have a strong gut feeling about you and I also like how you have been questioning a lot! you are by far by biggest town read and I hope we can go forward with that! i really like how you are looking at everything and really reading into UTL.You're going against the curve on a lot of things and not going for easy ways out, and this makes me think town. So I believe you are genuine and I am going to trust you I think but now I am just working on if you are right with your reads of people I wanted to go into further detail about this but your posts are so long I don't think right now I can confirm anything aside from I like how you are going about things. your posts are a bit overwhelming actually just by their length
Aatami- I overall think you are being genuine and I have a good overall feel for you. I pressured you at the start a bit and I think you handled it really well so I have a bit of a town read for you!
Aeronaut- I also have an idea of you being town! I think I didn't want to trust you at the start because I felt like you were being dismissive but now I think I was mistaken with that. You seem to be trying to help the cause and I like that. I think I got wrapped up in trying to be the underdog who catches the IC as scum so I think I got stuck looking for things that might not have actually been there I was trying to be uber careful. (I think this made me stop looking at some other potential bad guys)
Eggman/Ryu - I wanted to talk about Ryu for a bit. What I got from it was he was comfortable enough to tell everyone he wasn't comfortable? I think being a newbie he might have felt like he had to lie even if he was town because you always want to be the good guy and someone might not believe you. This is my first game and I think I can understand that just because you don't know what to expect- you end up overthinking. I think though it also might be he sounded too bad to actually be bad? if he was mafia he would have a partner and Im trying to figure why both parties would want him to act like that. i think that made me think he was town just kinda confused but because of what he was saying Id put him in the Null section. Not really enough to go on with Eggman yet.

null/confused

KAAG- you have been super helpful to me and I like a lot of your points. You were my strongest town read for a while! I think you are super analytical and I just want to trust you. But right now Smith is my strongest town read and I think you might be a bit dismissive of his points against UTL. I think he might be on the right track! that being said just because you don't agree with him doesn't mean you're a bad guy aha. Id say your are slight town read. Your relation to UTL makes me wary to trust you as much as I did earlier!
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Different kind of Nullreads
HeyboxingGame- Null. I need more posts from you to get a better read. I think KAGG pointed out a lot of flaws in your post. I can't trust you yet and need to see more.
Yawning- Im overall confused with you. I see some stuff I agree with and see you as genuine but then some stuff just confuses me and I don't agree so I am having a hard time!
I'm gonna go through some of your posts later tonight to try and sort you better
Scum?

UTL- at the start I thought you were super helpful! You helped with game play and overall super nice and you made me feel more comfortable in the game I don't think that really shows your alignment though, which is the tricky part. I really do buy into mhs' analysis of you, and in many ways its right. You seemed to be coasting by early game aha and that makes me think you were looking for ways to jump around. There is a strange connection with you and Aeronaut that seems a bit weird, as if you are trying to get on the IC's good side. People seem to be going out of their way to protect you and that makes me very sketchy about your slot, specifically Aeronaut and KAAG. Specifically 206 helped convince me to look this way.

All of my reads right now are small ones. I think with more posts this might shift a bit but I wanted to post this just so everyone knows where my head is at! I welcome you to question these and if you want me to expand on them I will!

[SummerInWonderland]

Eggman I feel like you might have forgotten about me in your reads!

[SummerInWonderland]

when someone forgets about you hehe

[SummerInWonderland]

I think he just forgot me??
VOTE: UpTooLate

[SummerInWonderland]

I think KAGG came off kinda sketchy a tiny bit. You made a really large post and his rebuttle to it was your posts are too long and you are using conformation bias. this appears to be discrediting you. I think. then again Aeronaut seems genuine in his defense of UTL but it might not be completely accurate. KAGGs post made me shift my opinion of him a bit, he is no longer my strongest town read.
I think he just forgot because it doesn't make sense otherwise. idk maybe he didn't think I was worth mentioning? I don't understand a motive to leave me out purposely

[SummerInWonderland]

Hey guys! okay so I just kinda wanted to talk about something that is bothering me. This is my first game ever and I find it really frustrating. Throughout this whole game people have been inactive and we have needed replacements and I just don't know how I am suppose to be trying to find scum if people aren't active. I know we can't change it but I wanna know if this happens a lot? and how is anyone suppose to come up with solid reads if so many people are missing...
Mhmsith I think you are town as I stated above so I know I trust your motives but in all honesty I now feel like your reads are kinda off. Ill explain my feelings on this.
So I know I am town- I shouldnt expect anyone to be convinced of this because us town don't know who is who. But since I know I am town and you are thinking I could be mafia I know something is wrong with your reasoning. I feel like you might be looking too much into small things. I think we should be looking for reasons someone is town and mafia not just one. You have a feeling I could be mafia because someone didn't say something about me. That is very small to go off of in my opinion.
I feel like you are town but I can't just go off what you're saying because to me I see you're jumping at things very quickly and might not be looking at everything.
My biggest problem right now is the inactive players- I feel like I was leaning UTL as town for most of this game so far but I shifted a little bit. This might be because I can't read players who aren't playing so I am just looking into what I can. I based a lot of my UTL vote on a feeling of smith to be town (him being on the right track) and that people were quick to defend her- i thought maybe someone was trying to protect her. so I am going back and looking into more content because i really don't like this confusion in my head.

[SummerInWonderland]

Yea I will try to clear it up!
okay yea so what I mean was you made a mistake about KAAG and I know you are wrong about maybe seeing me as a bad guy. Now when I say this I am just trying to explain my thought process to you guys. I know saying "Im town so you are wrong" is bad but since I know this its what I am thinking! so like... in my head... I know I am town... so you are wrong about me maybe being not town! this is just my thoughts! I hope this is making a little bit of sense? aha but anyways. I think the one point you had against me was small and it didn't mean much (the guy not noticing me) so then because of that it made me think "what if all the other stuff is just small stuff that doesn't matter" so then I was like "what if the case against UTL isnt that big of one and it might just all be little stuff'". This is all stuff in my head and I am just trying to convey that.
I am not sure what UTL pinged about me (it seemed to be really fast) strategic read switch I think. she was town reading me earlier and when you start to question me she now flipped and thinks im mafia.

2. Let's see. Scum are more likely to lurk to ride out the Day as under the radar as possible. It's usually not a good thing if you're compiling your reads and you forget about someone, or have no opinion on them at all (at least later in the game). Scum also like to take things out of context and twist them around to fit their agenda, produce weak surface level reads, and

push the weakest seeming players over the smallest things.

it could be this case- I am a newbie and she could easily attack that if she is mafia.

[SummerInWonderland]

I hope she gets back soon with her thoughts on this!

[SummerInWonderland]

"pinging my gut pretty hard"
made me think you were about to jump on me?

[SummerInWonderland]

Hey I am going to post about this! will take me a little bit tho

[SummerInWonderland]

You were praising his scumhunting in the post above, but the minute he mentions anything that could potentially link you to being scum, all of a sudden he's looking too much into things:

I was praising that he was scumhunting!

not that he was doing a great job of it

. okay so my change in thought wasn't because I was in the hot seat! like regardless I wasn't being super pressured or anything because the people only had small leans. okay so we need to look at what happened in between my reads and then now. smith was wrong about KAAG- he had a slight read against me. he owns up to his mistake about KAAG and like I explained by thought about myself. Since my first read 2 different things happened.
With that being said I stated earlier That i felt like he was town but then I just had to figure out if he was right.
he one point against me is silly I think. the one you bring up in your post (I will get into this)
then because of that I start to look at all his reads! the one of you which I was thinking "maybe there isn't really much to go on" because I know there wasn't with me. again this was my thought process. He was looking too much into things but that isn’t an alignment indicative thing, it merely is a distrust of his positions

The post of above has a few things wrong with it:
One, like stated earlier, you were just expressing how much you liked what he was doing (when it wasn't pointed at you) and in fact, you were somewhat sheeping him in your read of me.

Two, forgetting someone on a readslist is a scumtell (pretty sure mhsmith already went over it). Now, like all tells, it's not always accurate, but it is something to keep in mind. And considering you're one of the active people in the game, it does NOT make sense that he would forget you.

Three, the people you say were defending me, aren't they town reads of yours? So why would you trust mhsmith (though he is a seemingly widespread townread, he's not conftown) and not your other townreads? How does it make sense that because your town reads are defending me, I'm scum?

yes I like that he is scumhunting. Not that he is doing a particularly job. You accused me of a misrep, but

this right here is you misrepping me, not the contrary

Okay so a significant part of scum reading me is because someone forgot about me. its not even something I did. its someone else forgot about me and they said they were in class/skimming so if you do that, youre probably going to miss stuff. He admitted it was a goofy mistake. Usually that scumtell is forgetting a buddy? I don’t understand how he is using this to signify me as scum at all

You never said I was scum but you said I was “pinging your gut pretty hard”. I have no idea what that could mean other than you thinking I was a bad guy. This isn’t a misrep, this is you being vague and me calling you on it aha. I highly doubt I was “pinging your gut pretty hard” as a null/town read, you wouldn’t use that language. You were very obviously preparing to scumread me. You notice you’re in a bit of pressure and are trying to send it to me haha.

I really do think you are scum here UTL. Your pushes don't make sense to me at all if you are town. You are misrepping me I think and taking advantage of my poor-standing in the town right now.

@Yawning, you showed support for a UTL wagon and I'm more sure of this than your eggman case. Go there instead?

[SummerInWonderland]

Ok. Let me get this straight; you don't think he was doing a good job at scum hunting, but you said you thought he was on the right track, and then sheeped his case against me? What? How does that make any sense? So either I didn't misrep you as you're claiming, or you're back pedaling. Which one is it?

I wanted to trust what he said because I trust that he is town. Since that I knew he was on the right track! When he said something about me and messed up with KAAG I started to think more that maybe it's less and less accurate. You were the best lead at that time for active players. And then I was like maybe I need to look into this even more because I didn't feel confident . that's how my thought process went. It was a process! It wasn't happening all at once.
About the scumtell thing. So it's still a huge scum tell if the person was in class/skimming.? Like it's that big of a rule? It just seems so strange to me.
I'm really tired and can't go into everything I want to talk about. But I will tomorrow.

[SummerInWonderland]

Oh my god, obviously I don't know. I really think hes town and thus give his arguments more merit. I thought he was on the right track.

This isn't a good case, I thought he was on the right track and I was determining how right he was. It was the best lead I had at the time, it has since developed into me being sure you;re scum.
You're tone kinda upset me in this

[SummerInWonderland]

I am just trying to figure this all out!
I feel like your vote on me is very opportunist.

[SummerInWonderland]

UTL- I am going to explain again what I was saying. Theres a few things I need to point out again. I tried explaining to you that it was a process! it wasn't thoughts all at once which you are saying It was.
start of the process-

So I believe you are genuine and I am going to trust you I think but now I am just working on if you are right with your reads of people

This is the post I went into saying he was on the right track! I felt he was my strongest town read (still is) and because of that and his attitude/course of action I thought he was on the right track- catching the scum. then I said I need to work on if he is in fact right about his reads.
Then- after this- not during. I said I thought he might not be the greatest scumhunter because of the situation with KAAG and myself (which I explained) I really want you to understand this whole process thing because all of my posts have been trying to explain it.

Also Hi everyone! its great to see we have all of our players now!

[SummerInWonderland]

UTL- I don't think you are listening to me. go back to where I explain my thought process. I knew he was on the right track because I think he is town! I never said I was sold on these arguments but I did agree with a lot of them. earlier I explained why i voted u. This whole time I have been trying to explain to you my thought process over and over... you react to me by jumping on these things and being super nit picky. some of your biggest arguments are the fact I used "know" and that someone forgot me when he was in class skimming on a lot of material. like you only choose to mention some thing- you are acting like all of these things I have been saying are in one train of thought. It has been a process that has changed after time, and u are misrepresenting my points big time.
I am pretty busy atm but I will post more tonight

[SummerInWonderland]

I would like to express my thoughts of UTL and myself through a set of gifs

Spoiler: UTL be like

Spoiler: I be like

this is all for joke sake!

[SummerInWonderland]

UTL are you looking at everything I am saying ? You aren't commenting on a lot of what I am saying to you. You said nothing to me about me explaining my thought process to you. This isn't backpedaling.

[SummerInWonderland]

UTL- at the start I thought you were super helpful! You helped with game play and overall super nice and you made me feel more comfortable in the game I don't think that really shows your alignment though, which is the tricky part. I really do buy into mhs' analysis of you, and in many ways its right.

You seemed to be coasting by early game

aha and that makes me think you were looking for ways to jump around. There is a strange connection with you and Aeronaut that seems a bit weird, as if you are trying to get on the IC's good side. People seem to be going out of their way to protect you and that makes me very sketchy about your slot, specifically Aeronaut and KAAG. Specifically 206 helped convince me to look this way.

You're being so picky. I said you were coasting

early game

. You said a lot of filler and theory stuff. Now, you are nitpicking. I'm unsure if you're intentionally not reading my posts or are just trying to misrepresent me. You are lying about what I'm saying and I'm sure you're a bad guy at this point. You are picking out specific words I use and it doesn't make sense. Your case on me is super nitpicky, and not really that logical. You are not reading my posts I don't think. You don't seem to understand that my read on you was a process, and KAAG even expanded on that. I think you are a bad guy and see me as an easy target
I don't understand why if you believe something you're abandoning what you believe if you strongly believe it. It seems to me that you're scumreading me out of convenience more than anything else
@mhsmith can you look at my points? I'd like your thoughts

[SummerInWonderland]

I think I'm an easy target because I'm new(as everyone keeps pointing out all the time) and my wording isn't that polished. I don't want to keep going back and forth but I'm fairly sure you are mafia
Let's wait and see what others think about this because it not fun just us going back and forth.

[SummerInWonderland]

Hey guys I will probably post in a bit- I wanted to wait and see what others were saying about what was going on.
just looking I dont like the Aeronauts case against mhmsmith.
I wanted to hear more from KAAG about UTLs case because its something I am convinced on.
Ill go into stuff either tonight or tomorrow morning just giving a heads up.

[SummerInWonderland]

I think UTL is scum at this point- everything she has said with our conversation points to that.
I hope everything ends up being ok with her
I am going to look at Yawing now- this entire game I have had a hard time reading him so I am going to try to come up with something concrete.
as for Ryu I said my thoughts in my read. I wouldn't want him gone day one I don't think just because lack of info and his posts did not point me at scum. Eggman yet decided on- not enough info.
I am pretty sure Aeronaut asked me why I saw aatami as leaning town so I will find the posts that I liked.
Sorry for not posting too much lately- I have been swarmed with essays. Finals suck aha

[SummerInWonderland]

Okay just thinking
I think UTL is scum
and Yawnings name has been thrown around for a while (I think most of the game)
UTL has voted yawning
so I don't think both can be scum.
So for me right now I think it is really important for me to get a solid read on yawning so I can move forward to find the bad guys
I think what was going on is scum vs town.
I am going to look into it!

[SummerInWonderland]

ts of shade thrown, few concrete theories advanced, heavy focus on players deemed 'sketchy', or general pronunciations of gut readings. Has also ignored substantial tracts of thread that she might have commented on. Had a weak vote on Aeronaut (strong town) that I felt was poorly justified. Has also been slightly sheeping mhsmith0 as well as throwing weak shade at KAAG and posted very limited impressions when pushed. Came through with some reads in the end, but focused substantially on Aatami and Eggman, who are very weak slots to critique at this point. I'm not going to say active lurking, but this could be a scum player who's trying to read as town without committing to much. Equally, could be a town player who doesn't yet have a good head for the game. Weak lynch motive, unlikely NK.

I am just going to start with myself lol
okay few questions about this read.
Can you explain a few things for me. 1) what is all the shade am I throwing? 2) limited impressions when pushed? 3) I think I covered most people - in my reads a decent amount- should I have been focusing on someone in particular to you? I thinking giving my views on everyone is important. 4) can you explain why I dont have a good head for the game?I think I have been actively scumhunting but is it just because I am not expanding enough? I would like to get better at this game and if I don't have a good head for the game yet id like to know how to and as you said I probably dont have a good head for it.
anyways! hope you get back to me on these questions and I am going to look more into your posts. mainly because all I have said about you this game is that youre confusing me aha but I am on my way to understanding hopefully. I also do think I havent been looking at everyone and tracks of threads that you said- including yours

[SummerInWonderland]

Hey Eggman
if you want to make some of your own judgments on UTL look at the conversation between me and her.
This is where I became convinced she is scum.
I will probably post a full thing to everyone else why I think this all in one post.
I have explained to her why I think that- you can read and see but I will type up something more to make it clearer.

[SummerInWonderland]

I think it's funny that I'm "coasting" until I find something about you that I feel should be pushed. Now I'm nit picking

Anyway, I'm actually backing off now, unless she chooses to keep drawing me down this tunnel.

One thing I wanted to point out with this was how she took one of words and completely turned it around to make it something else. it seemed she was trying to turn my words against me. in the full thing I said something like "coasting at the beginning" not that long ago I quoted exactly what I said. and then she related to how I said she is nit picking which is exactly what she was doing to me.
Overall I think her turn on me was opportunistic and her points were just attacking individual words/theories
Ill be posting more about it- it is just easier in smaller posts going through each point that I saw as scummy

[SummerInWonderland]

YA- can you point me to my case against you? I didn't make a case against you.
I am trying to figure out if there is anything I don't agree with/ see wrong with your posts and I don't believe I ever made a case against you.
I am pretty sure all I have said the situations have confused me.
I have yet to decide on you- your recent posts I like but again I am still working on a read. and I am seeing some issues too...

[SummerInWonderland]

YA I asked you a question if you wanna look back at the next page
also I cannot help with the drinking game aha

[SummerInWonderland]

Blah...
This kinda sucks. Its my first game ever and like there has been so many peopled prodded and replaced out its really hard to come to any conclusions. I was not expecting this and I am not really sure how a game can be played like this.
This is not addressed at UTL! and I mean this isnt really addressed to anyone because the people who will read this are in the game :/
It just is sucky I think- idk games are not usually like this?
even if Aeronaut is busy he has been posting in other threads like it just suckkss.
also UTL I would really like you to stay in the game- smith shouldn't have said that I don't think. We want you here playing!! when and if you are able to come back I hope you would!

[SummerInWonderland]

mhsmith I like your drinking game!!!

[SummerInWonderland]

YA- can you point me to my case against you? I didn't make a case against you.
I am trying to figure out if there is anything I don't agree with/ see wrong with your posts and I don't believe I ever made a case against you.
I am pretty sure all I have said the situations have confused me.
I have yet to decide on you- your recent posts I like but again I am still working on a read. and I am seeing some issues too...

You said my case against you was weak- I don't recall making a case against you. I was just asking where you got this from

[SummerInWonderland]

I thought your early case against me was very weak

Just wanted to know where this came from!

[SummerInWonderland]

Okay I will do that! cool idea!

[SummerInWonderland]

Radja- I am convinced UTL was scum.
therefore I think you are too because of that
With that being said you voted Eggman even though you thought his claim VT was genuine. If you arent sold on this why are you voting this? you are just okay with a large chance to be wrong about him? really what I am saying why are you pushing this?
I know I need to look more into the Eggman situation but I was never strong on the Ryu as scum case because I felt like it could be a newbie not knowing what to do. also daytalk is a thing so why would scum B want scum A to act like that. (look back to my reads if you want a bit of expanded thought on it)

[SummerInWonderland]

@mod of this game I have no idea what happened here but I was trying to post in a game in a completely different queue

if one of you is a Spiffeh/Hiplop alt, that would be pretty funny.

not an alt but Hiplop is my bf! he got me into Mafia!
so I guess that is kinda funny aha

[SummerInWonderland]

Yeah he gave me a lot of good advice on scumhunting!
Also I will get to your questions in a bit!

[SummerInWonderland]

I really don't want to vote someone who is inactive or haven't participated much (i am still gonna go back and look at eggman tho)
UTL acted super scummy to me and she was active so that is why she was the best bet in my opinion. I have been pushing this pretty hard because its is something I felt confident on.
@Radja you posed a really hard question! I need to think on it more (I haven't overly thought about it because of my current thoughts on UTL)

[SummerInWonderland]

@Radja
I don't think it matters if you are town or scum when I say this
how utl acted/responded was scummy! unless you think her points had merit?

[SummerInWonderland]

she wasn't tunneling though- she switched between me and YA without hesitation.
and then she also dropped the case against me.
I don't understand the motive- if she was town why would she do that?
I am pressuring this because its what I see as the most scummy thing- she just dropped it with me.

[SummerInWonderland]

I also don't understand why she would "stubbornly stick to that perspective."
she doesn't strike me as an emotional player- idk...
if she had such strong feelings about YA why would she switch to me over a few words? like I didn't know saying the word "know" would make her competently go against me. Her points before that were weak I think too. she misrepresented me too and I just saw a lot I didn't see as a town motive.

This is my best case right now! it makes it hard with so many replaced or MIA players.. sigh
lol just looking KAGG and I are the only players who have been here from the start who haven't been prodded or replaced (I am not trying to complain too much, just think thats kinda funny)

[SummerInWonderland]

I think you've shown a lot of promise, and I think you can definitely become a good player.
You do need to look at scum motivation in a post. Disagreeing with someone doesn't necessarily make someone scum.

You don't think I looked at scum motivation in my case against UTL? also your second point is pretty obvious- disagreeing doesn't mean someone is scum!
also I really will get to your questions, look at your case and your points. currently in class tho!
I promise I will get to those tonight!! also
@YA still waiting for you to answer my question

[SummerInWonderland]

YA- can you point me to my case against you? I didn't make a case against you.
I am trying to figure out if there is anything I don't agree with/ see wrong with your posts and I don't believe I ever made a case against you.
I am pretty sure all I have said the situations have confused me.
I have yet to decide on you- your recent posts I like but again I am still working on a read. and I am seeing some issues too...

You said my case against you was weak- I don't recall making a case against you. I was just asking where you got this from

@YA- this

[SummerInWonderland]

KAGG- I totally agree with you.
YA- okay no biggie if that was a mistake but idk you really need to pay attention to that stuff - if you are town. you made something up basically because you didn't go back and actually check. also the first quote you have there was actually in your favor aha I was pressuring Aatami at that time and wondered why your case was worth pushing more than Aatami's (directed at Aeronaut) with that being said I don't have a strong town read for you or a strong scum read for you

[SummerInWonderland]

I'd like you to think about two possibilities:
-if I flip town, who are you going to look at for scum?
-if I flip scum, who would be my scumbuddy?

I am thinking about this.
It totally depends on how things play out.
I don't think I can give a solid answer because theres so many things
I could have an approach but no names atm- if you flip town id have to reread and go through everything!
If you are scum (which I think) I will continue with questioning and such. Idk if you are scum I don't think scumbuddy would be YA because of UTLs case on YA. (which Id have to look at more if flipped town)
But.
I do still think you are scum because if case with UTL and I am trying to narrow it down on you too.

Ryu/Eggman was in my null - I expanded on this earlier and I am trying to form more on Eggman! Ryu was all over the place to me and I don't want to lynch someone I am not confident about. anyways still looking into it. will get back with more.

[SummerInWonderland]

Also! HI shannon!
it will be great hearing from you!

[SummerInWonderland]

okay so I was about to go to bed and checked this lol
This is a lot! when I wake up I will get into it..
okay so I am not throwing out anything concrete? acting ditzy on purpose?
I have carried through with all of my points! I disagree with so much here ...
"summer is not as ditzy as she's making out" okay I wouldn't try to act ditzy at all.. nothing what I have been saying makes me think I am. I think I have a lot of valid points. if you think im acting ditzy then fine...
Ill get into it in the morning.

[SummerInWonderland]

As far as I can tell Eggman was not hammered. Shannon changed her vote to me.
@thor any way you can take a look at my UTL/Radja? I think this is our bet.
Also shannon asking someone what they think is working together with my town reads. I am not asking someone to save me. (I will continue to get into your case against me as I go)
I don't think Eggman is a good lynch- he is a lurker and I don't think there is too much content where with UTL I actually see solid stuff.

[SummerInWonderland]

I had a slight town read on Ryu and nothing really changed my mind with Eggman. You can look back at my read post and i mention it there
also I will link stuff to you but you can look back too because it spans over some time

[SummerInWonderland]

okay this is what I got- this was quick so if you wanna go back and look through things then go for it! She was pushing me bc someone forgot to put me on there reads list, nit picky, opportunistic. Look at all of UTLs post about me and they do not make sense.

UTL- at the start I thought you were super helpful! You helped with game play and overall super nice and you made me feel more comfortable in the game I don't think that really shows your alignment though, which is the tricky part. I really do buy into mhs' analysis of you, and in many ways its right. You seemed to be coasting by early game aha and that makes me think you were looking for ways to jump around. There is a strange connection with you and Aeronaut that seems a bit weird, as if you are trying to get on the IC's good side. People seem to be going out of their way to protect you and that makes me very sketchy about your slot, specifically Aeronaut and KAAG. Specifically 206 helped convince me to look this way.

I am not sure what UTL pinged about me (it seemed to be really fast) strategic read switch I think. she was town reading me earlier and when you start to question me she now flipped and thinks im mafia.
In post 39, UpTooLate wrote:
2. Let's see. Scum are more likely to lurk to ride out the Day as under the radar as possible. It's usually not a good thing if you're compiling your reads and you forget about someone, or have no opinion on them at all (at least later in the game). Scum also like to take things out of context and twist them around to fit their agenda, produce weak surface level reads, and push the weakest seeming players over the smallest things.
it could be this case- I am a newbie and she could easily attack that if she is mafia.

especially this one

You were praising his scumhunting in the post above, but the minute he mentions anything that could potentially link you to being scum, all of a sudden he's looking too much into things:

I was praising that he was scumhunting!

not that he was doing a great job of it

. okay so my change in thought wasn't because I was in the hot seat! like regardless I wasn't being super pressured or anything because the people only had small leans. okay so we need to look at what happened in between my reads and then now. smith was wrong about KAAG- he had a slight read against me. he owns up to his mistake about KAAG and like I explained by thought about myself. Since my first read 2 different things happened.
With that being said I stated earlier That i felt like he was town but then I just had to figure out if he was right.
he one point against me is silly I think. the one you bring up in your post (I will get into this)
then because of that I start to look at all his reads! the one of you which I was thinking "maybe there isn't really much to go on" because I know there wasn't with me. again this was my thought process. He was looking too much into things but that isn’t an alignment indicative thing, it merely is a distrust of his positions

The post of above has a few things wrong with it:
One, like stated earlier, you were just expressing how much you liked what he was doing (when it wasn't pointed at you) and in fact, you were somewhat sheeping him in your read of me.
Two, forgetting someone on a readslist is a scumtell (pretty sure mhsmith already went over it). Now, like all tells, it's not always accurate, but it is something to keep in mind. And considering you're one of the active people in the game, it does NOT make sense that he would forget you.
Three, the people you say were defending me, aren't they town reads of yours? So why would you trust mhsmith (though he is a seemingly widespread townread, he's not conftown) and not your other townreads? How does it make sense that because your town reads are defending me, I'm scum?

yes I like that he is scumhunting. Not that he is doing a particularly job. You accused me of a misrep, but

this right here is you misrepping me, not the contrary

Okay so a significant part of scum reading me is because someone forgot about me. its not even something I did. its someone else forgot about me and they said they were in class/skimming so if you do that, youre probably going to miss stuff. He admitted it was a goofy mistake. Usually that scumtell is forgetting a buddy? I don’t understand how he is using this to signify me as scum at all
You never said I was scum but you said I was “pinging your gut pretty hard”. I have no idea what that could mean other than you thinking I was a bad guy. This isn’t a misrep, this is you being vague and me calling you on it aha. I highly doubt I was “pinging your gut pretty hard” as a null/town read, you wouldn’t use that language. You were very obviously preparing to scumread me. You notice you’re in a bit of pressure and are trying to send it to me haha.
I really do think you are scum here UTL. Your pushes don't make sense to me at all if you are town. You are misrepping me I think and taking advantage of my poor-standing in the town right now.
@Yawning, you showed support for a UTL wagon and I'm more sure of this than your eggman case. Go there instead?

KAAG does a good job of summing some stuff up too, here. Worded a bit better than I tend to.

On UpTooLate

I'm struggling now UTL, for a number of reasons:
1) I read the game with Karnage/RC etc and found little real difference in your tone (to the point the issue was raised in this thread). As far as I was concerned, the matter was closed. But then you contradict this and say:

It is different this game from my last. My last game, day 1, I decided to try a more aggressive approach, picked a stupid fight with a newbie trying to push him a little since he said he had nothing to contribute, and I think I may have discouraged him a bit. I don't feel great about how I handled that, and I'm using a new approach this time around. So, yes, there is a difference in tone, you can take it for what you'd like.

Followed by a "clarification":

Ok, I'm here. Also, I didn't see which posts you linked earlier, I should probably do that, but that's not the tone I was talking about? I thought you were meaning my overall approach to the game. I'm going to be different in different games based on playerlists, gamestate, etc. Think of me as a mirror. I tend to reflect the personalities I'm dealing with. This game has had more of a "serious" vibe than my last newbie, so my posting has reflected that

Why are you defending a case like that? Are you worried that you sound different? It was marginal if anything as far as I can tell. And one could say that you ARE now having a little bit of a fight with YA and SIW too. So I'm not sure it's even true.
The defence is FAR more suspicious than the original case.
2) Hmmmm... (you can imagine my eyebrow at half mast when I say that):

There's a wagon on Aero? And no, my vote is not leaving you, in fact I'd like you to be lynched with fire by the end of the day.

Post 284:

lynch YA with fire.

wut. How do you "know" anything?
VOTE: SummerInWonderland
(P.s. he wasn't on the right track)

Post 287:

Votes SIW.

Are you really scum-reading SIW? This is how I read what she posted (post 286):
"I was town reading mhsmith and KAAG. mhsmith made a case on KAAG. I didn't like how KAAG defended it at first. Then we realise mhsmith misread 'least town' as 'AT LEAST town'. I now read them both as town but am not sure about mhsmith's reads"
And you misread that so badly you vote her?

After wanting to lynch YA with fire?

Are you postulating a YA/SIW scum team? Or are you just all over the place?
UNVOTE: Ircher
VOTE: UpTooLate

UTL are you looking at everything I am saying ? You aren't commenting on a lot of what I am saying to you. You said nothing to me about me explaining my thought process to you. This isn't backpedaling.

She went from having a huge townread on me to pushing me for voting her. Then when put under too much pressure she said we should just drop it.Her pushes just don't make any sense and she went after two people for convenience rather than confidence. Radja has been a bit better but not nearly enough to do anything to change my mind

I also don't understand why she would "stubbornly stick to that perspective."
she doesn't strike me as an emotional player- idk...
if she had such strong feelings about YA why would she switch to me over a few words? like I didn't know saying the word "know" would make her competently go against me. Her points before that were weak I think too. she misrepresented me too and I just saw a lot I didn't see as a town motive.

[SummerInWonderland]

Eggman/Ryu - I wanted to talk about Ryu for a bit. What I got from it was he was comfortable enough to tell everyone he wasn't comfortable? I think being a newbie he might have felt like he had to lie even if he was town because you always want to be the good guy and someone might not believe you. This is my first game and I think I can understand that just because you don't know what to expect- you end up overthinking. I think though it also might be he sounded too bad to actually be bad? if he was mafia he would have a partner and Im trying to figure why both parties would want him to act like that. i think that made me think he was town just kinda confused but because of what he was saying Id put him in the Null section. Not really enough to go on with Eggman yet.

I still stand by this overall. Ryu was all over the place and I am leaning bad player/confused instead of scum. big this is that scumbuddy why would any scum want this? I think he was probably town unless his scumbuddy was inactive player
your points

Ryu Ogami - Eggman
-Ryu's early jump on the YawningAngel wagon looks terrible.
-Eggman claims Aatami "reads towny", but lists him as a scumread
-Asks some questions about game mechanics, but no content
-VT claim looks pretty genuine, but was not necessary at all.

ya first point looks terrible but that doesnt mean its scum motivated. Dude looked confused as heck.
newbie asking mechanic questions its like he is a newbie or something.. no content- what if he just couldnt see any.
I am not reading this guy as a strong town but I am def not doing the same for scum. this just isnt enough.

[SummerInWonderland]

. big this is that scumbuddy why would any scum want this?

Big thing is the scumbuddy, why would any scum want this?
This is what I meant... oops... sorry for posting something incomprehensible lol

[SummerInWonderland]

There's a lot of things you can call UTL, but a lurker in not one of them.

You are right with this.
there are a lot of other things you can call her actions such as opportunistic, scummy, nit-picky, goon, and so on.
oh also she is very nice but probably tries to kill people at night *hint hint*

basically what I am saying is that YA was wrong about this one claim but I think there is a lot on your case

[SummerInWonderland]

@Ircher
Its okay shannon forgot that too....

[SummerInWonderland]

@Ircher I am pretty sure my UTL/Radja case is better than both of those
Shannon and thor are not on scum radar right now. A lot about shannons post I dont like- especially her case against me but that just seems extremely mislead.

[SummerInWonderland]

Eh, the UTL case is decent, but I also see a lot of conf. bias in the case which significantly weakens it. I'd rather anakyze that nextt day phase.

ok so you think it is a good case... but is weakened by some mysterious conf. bias.
please direct me to this because apparently there is a lot of it that you see.

[SummerInWonderland]

I am going to address shannon's "case" on me- it appears to be personality tells than anything else

44 - Is Summer faking a character? Trying to seem too nice to be Scum? 'I don't mean to be mean...' re: targeting Aatami (which is me)

maybe I am just a nice person... and if you are looking for someone who could have sounded too nice its interesting you looked at me when UTL was clearly the nicest person here lol look at her post to RYU.

117 - Is Summer trying to fake us out? Her excuses for not making firm decisions read as really scummy to me. 'Just trying to go for things I understand'. Reminds me of that Simpsons ep with Malibu Stacey. Don't ask me, I'm just a girl!

So I just wanted to point out the stuff that was going on around this- I would also appreciate if you used the full quote so I was questioning Areonaut at this time- and I said I didnt understand everything going on with RYU and YA. so I went with what i felt strongest which I backed up with my points- he made a mistake. Not because I am trying to act stupid because I was going with what was strongest to me...

Also 234 - Summer was silly to trust UTL at the start and UTL is 'coasting', but Summer is also coasting. Only agreeing with other people, trying to equivocate by saying lots of 'seems like' and 'feels like' because you can't argue with a feeling.

I was not coasting here- I was the first person to question Aeronaut with backed up points which I came to on my own. So this is a straight up lie.
327- we did not call eachother picky- this is a misrep of the situation

At first I thought UTL was the problem, and I guess she could still be. But Summer looks worse.

You just I said "I guess" you have criticized me for saying this. You did not go into depth about UTL but you said she could still be the problem- weird half bus ?

To go meta, Mafia is not the sort of game you go to play if you have poor reasoning/analytical skills, it just wouldn't be fun. So Summer is not as ditzy as she's making out. She's not an inactive policy lynch, she's looking weak enough to have an excuse if she's not a mafia target, and she's not actively towny ... I think she has to go.

you are troubled with how I am typing- thats your problem.
again this is another personality tell.
This is not just insulting but a bad case...
I think you skimmed over a lot of situations where I was putting content in and you are focusing on my style of wording over actual substance- substance > style
I am not a ditzy person but I am new to mafia so yes some things confuse me. I am not stupid and I am not faking it.
I do hope you consider these points

[SummerInWonderland]

I think we at least agree that Egg is not the best target for this lynch (caveat: I have only read as far as the post I'm quoting, you might have changed your mind later). I am reading this as a pretty towny comment, so I need to reconsider my overall read of you. Maybe you really *are* just polite and open to others feedback, and aren't trying to equivocate to hide scumminess...

okay please look at my post about your case on me- I hope it clears some stuff up.

[SummerInWonderland]

That's perfectly fine. I understand that- no hard feelings. I'm a new player and everyone keeps bringing up my newbieneess. I guess I haven't quite learned how to present my ideas in the best way yet. I am working on it, an awful lot. I think my ideas are good. Im really working to properly present my ideas better I'm glad you see what I'm saying, and as you reconsider your stance on substance over style, I will continue to work on making my substance more clear!
And of course!

[SummerInWonderland]

hey thor!
I am just wondering why are you voting Radja now?
I put my case out there for you a while ago and KAGG did a bit after that too.
You were questioning others throughout that.
so yea basically why now?

[SummerInWonderland]

@shannon
You seem to be doing a lot of personalty tells - calling me the nice ditzy scum and then calling thor a jerk.
you and I cleared up my situation but I just wanted to point that out there- this stuff is hugely subjective.

[SummerInWonderland]

I am voting Radja because I don't scumread Yawning Angels as much and, for some weird reason, there is zero support for the idea of lynching Ircher.
Yes, I was questioning others throughout that - don't understand the point of bringing that up - clarify?

yea! okay I mentioned it because you didn't get back to me on my case of UTL/Radja and idk if you agreed or didnt agree because you didnt respond to it. I brought it up because I didnt know if questioning these people were the most important thing for you or if you were just thinking on my points. basically you were active in between my case post and now so I was just wondering why now for the vote, you know?

[SummerInWonderland]

all things which in normal conversation would be jerky.

but this is mafia

[SummerInWonderland]

KAAG I really like this post!

[SummerInWonderland]

Okay this happened very quick- I would have rather waited a bit to see a claim or whatever defense Radja had. With that being said theres nothing we can do about it now.

how I perceive YA right no:

[SummerInWonderland]

As far as I know twilight seems to be dangerous for town.
I don't think we should be putting all of our thoughts out there because we will soon find out if Radja is scum or town.
Giving free information to scum is bad.
saying things like "if he is town I will think or if he is scum I will think" is just giving out free information with no gain to town as far as I can see.

[SummerInWonderland]

wont they just know what everyone thinks of each other and then thus find the best kill?
This is why I think it could be dangerous!

[SummerInWonderland]

YA - why did you post my gif?
ALSO HI guys!
i will make posts tonight- currently going to see Batman vs Superman so I cant right now

[SummerInWonderland]

Okay so I am pretty busy tonight but I will tell you guys what I am thinking right now!
I saw two votes on KAGG and I would not be ready to support this at all. Sure he could be bad guy town leader or he could just have good motives- not enough to go on. All I have seen makes me think he is town and not willing to go against that yet because of paranoia. two active town members are already gone and if that happened to KAGG it would really be unfortunate. I need to see more to support this and right now I see nothing. not off my radar but he is a town read of mine.
with that being said Eggman needs to post more because not posting isnt helping at all and I will be looking at that now and will vote for it to add pressure if I need to.
what YA did with the hammer and not understanding twilight I don't think makes him scum but I do not have any strong town read on him.
my thoughts on Smith have not changed- strongest town read
shannon- I had a slight town read before today and I am not sure if that has changed - I am going to look into you more and same with Ircher- Something seems off to me (this is nothing solid) but since I am busy tonight I wont get into it. I will have something more concrete I hope tomorrow. I just am suspicious of you and will be looking into you.
will be posting as much as I can tomorrow!

[SummerInWonderland]

In post 601, KickAssAndGiggle wrote:
I will happily debate you on this if you desire, but it seems as if it's a side-track. Will continued debate help you sort me?

Yes, it would, because as currently stands I feel you're shoveling it with both hands at me, and that makes me think you're scum.

This is currently my only thing possibly on KAGG
Thor was looking into him and got NK'd
this is small and I am not voting on it but keeping it in the back of my mind

thor also went for Ircher and YA.
will be looking into this too as I already said.

@shannon okay so you voted KAGG. I think as a player you might be looking for the big bad scum in the widely read town slots (you did that with me and KAGG) I am not saying this is a bad thing! keep your eyes open all the time! but just a thought make sure because you see scum motive not because you think you are missing something and questioning for small reasons. This is just my thoughts! also my first game so you dont have to take my advice but I am throwing it out there any ways :p also why voting KAGG? please explain in more detail!

[SummerInWonderland]

also Smith!
a while back you thought the talk between UTL and I was town vs town- you thought she was being genuine with that being said I regret I didn't listen to you. also I found this gif that I wanted to use!

[SummerInWonderland]

okay here we go. This is posts from the start of day 2
711- YA why would thor be your mislynch? I am not a huge fan of talks like "if i was scum" because noone knows and it can be turned so many ways. Thor was intimidating! I think that probably is huge in why he was NK'd so I don't think your first point matters- he could have been seen as a threat either way.
718- KAGG I like this post about Radja- in my opinion UTL leaving was the worse thing that could have happened for her role because Radja couldnt defend it because he is not her
727- lol I have never heard the phrase "taking the piss" - I am Canadian. also I know this has been covered since then but it seemed that Thor was not joking when he scum read Ircher
749- okay I think shannon is committing to herself. her reads all follow the same style (I will get into this)
755- okay so Ircher you thought he was scum but dropped it because you didnt think it would happen..... wtf. I really want to comment on this! so I went against UTL and saw her as scum Kagg did too after. It did not pick up AT ALL for a long time. I was convinced UTL was scum and I was dropping it even though it was not a popular idea at the time. so why the hell would you drop someone that you thought was scum. you didnt think it would happen so it was just okay??? I dont buy this.
765- three reasons why I think thor could have been NK'd he was either on the right track, seen as a threat or thought to be a PR. probably the threat or on the right track so I think who he suspected could hold have done this. or someone threatened by his experience?
768- this posts still shows how consistent shannon is being. she reads people on interactions and personality. look at her read of me then calling thor a jerk and this posts just shows how consistent I think she is. also she went for widely read town players at that time! me then KAGG- trying to get the big baddie towns is what I am calling it. now this could be a lot of things and I do slightly think this consistency in style is good to take note of and could be towny. (someone isnt in her ear?) BUT shannon can you explain your reads.... go in depth- I will have questions on what you say because I found them... interesting...
769- if smith is town I think he deserves an oscar. ALSO this post is where I started to think the KEY IS EGG or IRCHER
778- shannon thoughts on Ircher here- look at the lasts thing you say does he fit into this??
785- not necessarily true at all!!!
786- In my notes I literally had "damn!!" written. so. Ircher went away from the Egg case because he didnt think it would happen... uh ok. he didnt want to follow his strongest scum read because he didnt think he could convince people in time. you had a strange reason for not voting Radja!! is this seperating from this? is this saying "I am town hey look I didnt vote against the town guy!! I MUST BE TOWN" I want people to look at this post because I saw it as huge!

okay with all of this being said I think the key is EGG or Ircher. I am heavily leaning Ircher. YA thinks Eggman is scum (not posting, not being helpful) and some. this would then conclude as YA said it is either shannon, KAGG or I as scum buddy. (I would think shannon if that was true) but she has been consistent. half way through these posts I thought it was EGG or Ircher I am heavily leaning Ircher now. I think if egg flipped town YA would be in the hot seat BIG time. (I think KAGG mentioned this earlier)
also I looked at all of Ircher and YA's post to see how it interacted- YA pretty quite overall of Ircher and Ircher was flipflopping like crazy about YA. what is going on there? bussing set up? but ircher also comes in to deflect attention off of him as well... Basically he is half-committing to the idea of YA scum, proposing it as an absolute then dropping it on the fly. I suggest people to go back and look on that- see if they see anything.
VOTE: ircher

[SummerInWonderland]

also
@Eggman you need to be posting a lot more! as I said to me- you or Ircher are they key so you need to be posting!!

[SummerInWonderland]

okay also to go with my posts I will give a read list
most towny
Summer
Smith
KAAG
Shannon
Eggman
YA
Ircher
least towny

[SummerInWonderland]

smith- I will look into this- something I actually skimmed by and should not have.

[SummerInWonderland]

SIW mostly seems to suspect Ircher because he's confused about me, and I don't think that's reasonable.

This is a misrep.
I will get into this in a bit and explain to you my reasoning because you must not understand if you think this is my main reason.

[SummerInWonderland]

You can just look over what i said to see why I am suspecting him but I guess you only got the one thing from it.....
I am in class but i will offer another explanation to you after...

[SummerInWonderland]

okay YA.
look at where I talk about posts 755 and 786 in my post.
basically why the hell would he turn away from his number 1 scum?? he said he didnt think that would happen.... like I don't buy it.
I said I never dropped my thing on UTL because I was convinced she was scum. It wasn't a popular idea at the time and I still pushed because it is what I believed.
he just dropped it- again I don't buy it.
also smith recently has said some really good stuff- why switch to shannon? even though I don't strongly think right now she would be Irchers scumbuddy- I told smith I would look into it- I have not gone back yet to do so. but in my initial read of Ircher and the situation made me think it was Ircher and YA.
Again I think Icher or Egg is the key (leaning Ircher) is YA right about Egg? or going for easy mislynch (thor brought this up once about the easy mislynch I believe) This is why we all need Eggman to be posting more!!
but Irchers actions dont make sense and If people look back at my post you will my thoughts more clearly on it. why didnt he push people away from the Radja case if he was so sure??
so many questions.....

[SummerInWonderland]

Lol I just looked over your game KAAG! you seem to be one hell of a scum player

[SummerInWonderland]

A meta dive will help you read me. pulling that kind of crap. But you're not. So no pass here. Or am I misreading you? If so, please explain how. Meta: Seen as an easier mislynch target, generally, this stuff happens unintentionally and I don't realize my mistake til well after. I've gotten better, but my work ethic here has decreased resulting in scummier behavior as I don't take the time to expand on things.

Okay so basically you say a meta dive will help get a read on you...
you also say you get mislynched- but even though you have gotten better you havent put much work into this game- okay you have been posting quite a bit! wait your defense is basically you are a bad town player???? like that is all you got?

Give me some slack, will you? Ok, maybe what I did D1 wasn't the best play (or even good play), but nonetheless, it could've been worse. I don't intentionally do stuff that gets me mislynched. I just post without thinking of all possibilities & therefore get mislynched. I am still very new to Mafia. I have a very small amount of experience elsewhere (2 games on a non-mafia related forum), so all of my experience playing has been on this site.

again you are just saying you are a bad town player... oh a bad new town player

Literally, rthat is my meta. I've yet to have a scum game, but nonetheless, you read players based on their playstyle which generally means having an idea of their meta.

okay so you want people to meta dive but you havent had a scum game.... like...how can someone meta read you if you have never played one of the alignments. That makes no sense.

839- YA- this seems like a weird defense. this is a stawman I think- you are saying his approach is bad when that is not what smith argued- you are defending Ircher for bogus reasons that I don't believe you believe.

[SummerInWonderland]

@SIW Yeah you're totally right. I'm scum, Ircher is my buddy, and I thought the best way to avoid getting him lynched was to post a half-arsed defence that is obviously untrue, thereby incriminating myself in the process.

Okay I am asking questions- there is nothing wrong with that and trying to read situations.
you don't have to give a super sarcastic answer back....

but anyways- I said either Egg or Ircher is the key- I am questioning Ircher because he is actually posting!! I have been encouraging Egg to post so I can sort him. (he hasn't been which is frustrating)

also Ircher I will get back to what you are saying in a bit!

[SummerInWonderland]

no worries! I can tell you are frustrated with it so I am just going back and reading through this stuff!

[SummerInWonderland]

Ircher thanks for the input- its nice hearing about other games and situations! this is my first game so I have nothing to draw from and I am just trying to deal with what I see!! also all explanations on your thought process/feelings is good.

[SummerInWonderland]

@shannon I had some questions for you in my post a while ago could you get to those too?

[SummerInWonderland]

I just wanted a more in-depth read list from you! you posted on earlier. My one post I ask about it .

[SummerInWonderland]

Like he only has 16 posts ....
Much frustration.

[SummerInWonderland]

Lol!! I meant to say if you are scum you deserve an Oscar!!!

[SummerInWonderland]

Also I have been skimming all this- in class. I will post tonight

[SummerInWonderland]

My view is:

Ircher should NOT claim

We keep the pressure on Ircher to defend the case.

We cajole Eggman to get involved, or we hope for a replacement.

We take our time.

I will support an Ircher lynch closer to the deadline, if nothing significant changes.

I think taking time is good- I am not opposed to a role claim a bit further throughout the day. We have the time- I think we should use more of it. This is mostly due to the Eggman slot. He really needs to participate.

[SummerInWonderland]

okay a quick thought I had
so Eggman seems okay with being lynched!
if he is scum he has a scumbuddy- if he wants to help his buddy at all why would he say this? why would he just be okay with it? wouldn't his buddy encourage him to be active/not give up?
anyone have ideas on this?
I will try to be posting more tonight! (again I have been super super busy lately )

[SummerInWonderland]

I've misworded stuff?

well you have said stuff that wasn't true about me twice

[SummerInWonderland]

hey Ircher
I am wondering how would a scumbuddy fits into this?
if he is generally just confused why would he be asking everyone and not just his scumbuddy?
also why would someone direct him to act like that?
why chose these questions to ask?
you are saying he is scum but I want to know how his buddy fits into it.

[SummerInWonderland]

yea that is totally understandable!
but we need to try to find the motive behind actions.
what is the motive? why is the buddy okay with this? and so on.
I think these are important questions to be asking.
we don't have to be looking for a particular scum buddy BUT if he is scum we know he has one.
since you are pushing this case I want to know what you think about it! so possible motive, scumbuddy ect?

[SummerInWonderland]

One thing I will suggest is that Eggman is the sort of partner I would bus mercilessly as scum, so I'm not discounting anybody, even those who've pushed him hard.

thoughts on YA?

[SummerInWonderland]

Eggman do you have anything else???

[SummerInWonderland]

Its okay guys KAAG has decided everything!! :p

[SummerInWonderland]

No I think its smiths vote. I am never opposed to giving more time!
I was just poking fun at your tone!

[SummerInWonderland]

okay guys I am here- I am good with following Irchers claim order

[SummerInWonderland]

cmon Eggman!!

[SummerInWonderland]

lol this is my first game and first LYLO and I am not stoked about this!! mad stress.

[SummerInWonderland]

uh why? XD

[SummerInWonderland]

yea It seems like we have a weird game because of all the replaces! but anyways.
I really want to get into some stuff (some reads and things I have been thinking about)
but it has to wait because we are going to claim and that will hopefully shed light on the situations!

PS same to you :p

@YA aahhhh okay. I am a history/philosophy student so I don't have to worry about that stuff :p

[SummerInWonderland]

lol this kinda relates! I can't promise I will be posting a lot because I have four exams in the next week but I will try to keep up and post as much as possible! (first year uni problems)

Its good we have two weeks- I am happy to use the time

[SummerInWonderland]

Ahhhh, you three are having a love-in, but at least one of you is a naughty scummer.

lol who has been naughty

[SummerInWonderland]

I want to expand on things- I will do so I think when I claim or after everyone else does.

lol good job egg for posting more! :p

[SummerInWonderland]

ok!

[SummerInWonderland]

Yeah, I getcha, I'm just really antsy 'cos I've done nothing all day and was pretty hyped for some scum hunting :/

where are you now then

[SummerInWonderland]

Lol I was just joking with you YA!
Also I will claim now!

[SummerInWonderland]

I am the Doctor.

[SummerInWonderland]

Feel free to put your own % on smith's obv!towniness. Feel free to put your own % on me claiming VT when doc is the only sensible claim if I'm scum. But those are my figures.

You wouldn't claim doc if you thought you'd lose against me- which very well could have happened.

I have a busy day but I will post tonight expanding on this and what has been going on.

[SummerInWonderland]

Claiming doc is the obvious scum play there vs anyone. I'd have had to back myself to win the argument, certainly, but would have done. Of course, I might have been wrong, but that perfectly plausible possibility (alliteration makes me happy!) wouldn't stop it being the right play.

okay so back to this point.
so you think it would be in scum's best interest to CC. I don't.
If you are scum you would have to argue against me- why would I know that CC is a good idea? (if I was scum with lurking Eggman) and also I would have to claim doc first before (because of Irchers order) if you were trying to argue that I was scum you would have to work around that I had a 50/50 chance of guessing the role. Scum didn't know whether there was a doc or BP. That seems pretty risky.
Also one of your points against me would be that Eggman forgot me in his reads! I am pretty sure earlier when UTL used that against me you said it wasn't a very strong point. It could be lazy newbieness.

Two VT vs Two scum-VT makes more sense.

I mean I could see it working better if for example YA and you claimed doc because you are far more town read than he is- you could probably have won that but since I am the doc I doubt it was in the best interests for scum to counter claim, especially if its you who is the logical, head over heart player also by your last game we can tell you clearly play a great scum game. People could easily expect a play like that from you idk if they would think I would try to pull something like that off.

Currently Smith is still my strongest town read. so I am heavily looking at KAGG, Egg, YA and the combos of those people. BUT smith isn't ruled out.
The thing here is (and if smith is town) why are we alive? who wanted us to be here and why? Thor as I said was probably killed because he was either on the right track or a threat or both. Shannon though was probably killed because scum figured out she was a PR. by the end of day 2 I thought she had a good chance of being the other PR but her standings where not very high for being town. So this brings me to more questions why was she killed when she could have been mislynched today? (higher chance than smith and I at least) I am adressing these questions to the town players left- why are you here? why did they want you here?
also why was KAGG not nk'd- he is one of the strongest town reads and yet he has remained... At least with smith and I you can make a case tha we have been really on the wrong track twice, but KAAG avoided the Ircher wagon. I wonder why all of us are here when others who were not as strong town reads have gone before.
I find some of this really interesting..

[SummerInWonderland]

yea! I had a hunch- I don't think it was a legit read but I did see her as towny (I explained her consistency) It was more like she had a good chance to be it - it was when I was theorizing about certain people. I didn't think you were a PR and I didn't think KAGG was so it really left her. It was more like when she was nk'd I wasn't surprised she was a PR
again I did not expect her to be nk'd because of her standing in the group
both nights I protected you. I saw you as the most towny and thought youd be targeted because of it. Both NKs though havent been largely read town people.
again I am thinking why are we alive? KAAG, Smith, and me all here :/

[SummerInWonderland]

sorry I am super busy- will try to post tonight
I am in no hurry at all btw-I want to use this time and I will not be voting for a while!

[SummerInWonderland]

Also, I don't like KAAG's overly sarcastic tone in this latest post of his
Gut feeling

Okay you are going to have to say more than this- I think this just makes you look bad also its annoying.

okay I thought it could be newbie/confused stuff but you can't seriously still pulling the "idk whats going on or what to say but I kinda think this"

also everyone else! I am catching up!! I just saw this and its so frustrating.

I don't get angry much but Eggman you're being a lameo and its really annoying- say more please and don't just base it off of "gut-feeling".

Like its a newbie game- you are learning that's awesome! but so am I... I want to try to figure this out but you are frustrating me so much...

[SummerInWonderland]

so sorry guys!
I have 3 exams in the next few days- I am done Monday night so I will be posting lots then!!
I know this is at the worst time but I really cannot be focusing on this much so I apologize and I will make up for it.

so I think one of the big things is that I didn't look too much into Eggman. In the previous days I didn't want to vote him because he wasn't very active and for me that made me think he was null. I was hoping to find the scum by catching a slip up or something and he wasn't giving anything. Since he is still here it very well could be a play... Also him posting more today could be a few things and its really hard to determine. Currently though he is someone I am really looking into and will be posting a lot Monday and Tuesday about.
There is this also this back and forth going on between YA and KAAG which is very interesting. To go forward I am trying to rule out some stuff- such as a KAAG and YA team. I think a YA/Egg is possible. There are problems with that though that I need to try to figure out... KAAG/Egg as well. It could still be YA/KAGG (that would be a tricky situation)

Smith is still my strongest town read and I am pretty confident in this. ofcourse if something jumps out at me from him I will point it out but nothing has..

I think I asked smith this once to but I was thinking about questions like why are we here over other people? why are so many widely read town players are here? (maybe one is scum?) and so on. do you have any thoughts on this stuff?
I wish I had more free time to talk about this right now but I will try to check in soon and offer up more!! again sorry guys.. exam season sucks

[SummerInWonderland]

Smith I am really glad to see where your head is at!
Okay I found this really interesting- you pointed out a lot that I saw too.
One thing is the UTL case... KAGG had a lot of similar points to me but he also had some other ones (UTLs fake reaction)
The night kill stuff I think makes a lot of sense-I pointed out before how thor was questioning him and it overall makes sense to me

another thing too add to your points and something I want to get your opinion on is todays votes.
We know you and KAGG are not the scum team (you both would have voted by now and won if that was the case)
YA and Egg seem like a weird combo to be scum- why would the vote eachother in LYLO? also YA has been after Egg for a long time
this then leaves a possibly higher scum chance for KAGG because it could be KAGG/YA or KAGG/egg

also KAGG could you restate or add to why a YA and EGG scum team makes sense?

[SummerInWonderland]

Hey guys I will be on posting tonight!

[SummerInWonderland]

So sorry guys...
I moved out of res today so I was super busy.
Smith I wanted your thoughts on KAGGs post?

One thing I wanted to mention KAGG is the whole "I am really trying hard and want us to win" and "If I was scum I wouldn't have done all this work" Kinda stuff... Like it doesn't mean anything because there is so many possibilities. It isn't helping your case at all but then again its not making it worse. I totally get it either way I am just saying it doesn't help me see you as town I am having a really hard time finding out of the three (YA, KAAG and Egg) who the two scum are....
I am trying to understand why the best game approach for scum would be to bus your partner basically right off the bat? idk does this happen in other games? I don't see the benefit.
KAGG you have a lot in your post that I am just going over through rn

[SummerInWonderland]

I am curious if you think I have accomplished less than the other two townies. Both yourself and SIW have been voting for a towny at the end of D1/D2 (note that as I would have hammered Ircher, I am not saying I'm "better" in any way, just equal! )

KAGG I dont think you have accomplished less!
The thing that I go back too is the UTL case- I saw it as scummy how she was acting and you could have saw the same if you were town. Idk theres a lot of things I don't know right now or feel super confident on.

I am wonder though why do think you are alive KAGG if you are town? maybe you have adressed this before, if you have let me know!
basically why do you think the 3 towniest people are still alive/werent NK'd if they are all town?

I have been trying to see possible motives in these things! but idk..

[SummerInWonderland]

2) shannon did give away the fact she was cop or tracker, twice. See posts 724 and 725, and then posts 895 to 902. An investigative PR is the holy grail of a night kill.

Oh you picked up on that too.... interesting....
they don't seem like obvious tells tho.

[SummerInWonderland]

PS the entire game state has been frustrating, tbh. @newbies: this really isn't how games around here normally go. I mean, sometimes you have a high replacement rate when things get toxic (which is its own special type of experience), but the apathy in this game doesn't seem to be normal at all. There's a good amount of blame to pass around on that front (and this may include myself for some over-posting tendencies), though I think that's best served to wait until post game to really get into it.

I kinda figured that this game hasn't been normal. :p
I was really frustrated earlier in the game because of it!
I have been at blame lately
I think right now though I just am unsure and its really hard especially when both of the people who I thought were scum ended up being town (Ircher, UTL) I don't want to jump into anything too quickly.
With YA he hasn't been in any of my strong town reads or strong scum reads... for me its a constant back and forth which really sucks.
but anyways I am still trying!! I will have some more questions coming I am sure

[SummerInWonderland]

What I am thinking right now is KAAG is the best bet.
I don't see YA and Egg as partners
where I think Kaag/egg and kaag/ya could be... he is common in both so yea.
this is the point I am at.

[SummerInWonderland]

Hey Almost50!
I am reading your posts
I will get to some of these later- I don't want to say anything until you are done going through everything!
all of your posts are very interesting :p
anyways I won't be posting until you are done and all caught up!

[SummerInWonderland]

so comes into game saying Smith is scum and focuses on that while not pondering on the option of KAAG being scum.
for ???? reasons???
:/ er okay

anyways! keep going :p

[SummerInWonderland]

uh okay
I have some concerns.
you come in and now you are convinced of YA and smith being scum
It seems like you are not looking at everyone- just going after smith.
you also go ahead and say smith leaves his options open- well yea could be the case or you know maybe he isn't sure because he is town and doesn't know who the scum are..
I mean some stuff I think is just pretty bad here... your defense of kaag for one.
sorry I wanted to let you finish but this isn't sitting right with me and I very well could see you as Kaag's scum partner...
I am not convinced at this point of your case on smith- I will try to keep listening and see where your points are coming from but... idk right now!

[SummerInWonderland]

@Summer:

I'll be blatantly honest here: When I replace in late into the game I do NOT include the game in my records. I thus am not "dying" to win this game. I'm doing YOU a favour. If you don't accept it, it's on you. I'll be perfectly satisfied if town loses the game because they didn't believe in my CORRECT reads. It will still satisfy my ego to know I was spot on, none-the-less.

Now I've explained why smith is much much MUCH more scummy than KAAG in this game. I also don't see who "everybody" I should be looking at? 4 townies are already dead. I know my own role, and I was told you're unCC'd. This only leaves 3 players to look at, and one is already conf!scum, so it's between smith and KAAG. Who else should I be looking at?

so you have read enough to know kaag is town but not enough to have seen my claim?....
like..

[SummerInWonderland]

2/3 scum candidates are pushing to lynch YA ...
I think that contributes to the idea that both u and kaag are scum

[SummerInWonderland]

VOTE: kaag

[SummerInWonderland]

ass-kicked and I giggled :p

[SummerInWonderland]

50 made himself look pretty scummy to me.
His posts just made him and kaag look more and more scummy as a team I think

[SummerInWonderland]

ya true
one thing about 50 is to me it looks like he got sparknotes from a buddy.

[SummerInWonderland]

they also both were pushing to lynch ya- they only needed one more to go on.

also I was second guessing myself a lot after I voted because of how they continued to talk- but I thought I was right and held through and am glad I did.
do what you need to do but I do think its 50

[SummerInWonderland]

They wanted someone to go after YA.
That's all they needed to win.
what makes you think 50 is town at all? just wondering. is it just because you think YA could be scum? doesn't deserve a free pass?

[SummerInWonderland]

also why would kaag self hammer if ya is his partner - he did it to keep ya open as potential partner probably
IF 50 is town (which I don't think he is) then this applies

[SummerInWonderland]

mhsmith I wouldn't worry too much about it! I am sure she's probably is over it now
and yea when I look back I probably should have claimed BP because then we would have had a better chance at this point!

[SummerInWonderland]

its like he is scum or something!
anyways! I hope you get the scum smith because I will be NK'd
idk I got kaag and I really think 50 is his partner
good luck tomorrow and such

[SummerInWonderland]

Hey guys, I just skimmed through this. Smith, don't be sorry for losing the game! If I was alive, I would have definitely voted almost50. He looked significantly scummier than anyone else in the game. He really had a weird tunnel thing going, I wouldn't have given as much time as you. I think you played just as well as you could have with almost50 playing as he did!
KAAG, I liked playing with you a lot Even though you were scum, you were super helpful, and I really had fun talking to you. I like the way you play, and you helped me learn so much. I mean, if you didn't explain some things to me about scumhunting, I would have never realized you were scum I think you sounded very...objective and not bias (even though you are, obviously), which really helped me in my first game. I'd love to play with you again!
I had fun this game regardless, thanks Jackall!

[SummerInWonderland]

Oh, well.. you live and you learn. Now I know your town play is so scummy and you know mine is too. Perhaps we both should give eachother a break in future games

Smith's play was very very obviously town to every single town player. Not a single one even remotely scumread him. If you had listened to a single dead/confirmed town player, we probably wouldn't have lost this game...

[SummerInWonderland]

, I also disagree that SiW was really having her read on me affected by my lack of desire to read the entire game, I think she mistook aggression for scumminess for some reason. Basically if I'd been mor e"hey, mellow out cats, let me playact as a chill professor type....wooooord" she would have been more kindly disposed.

I didn't take your aggressiveness for scumminess! I actually said I liked how you came in and defended you against Shannon when she called you a jerk :p
I really didn't think Thor was going to be NK'd because he wasn't widly read town or anything! I thought it was much more likely to be smith- I read the scum thread you guys were really thinking about killing him until thor came around :p
And yea KAGG I really should have protected Shannon but at that point I thought she could be it or I also thought you could be the other PR if you were town. So I wasn't confident at all that she was it I really should have went with that but I wasn't confident on it and again Shannon wasn't widley town read and I thought she could be an easy mislynch target. Also I was super scared not to have Smith in the game and thought him being around would be hard for scum because of how widely read town was. I should have taken that risk.
It was really hard! I think I payed attention to all the wrong details and points because there was evidence with KAGG. I should have looked more when you were talking about UTL and saying how she was faking being mad at Smith or w.e because I didn't buy that but I also thought she was still scum :/ I thought that could still be town motive because town can be super wrong about stuff so I just let that go.