Newbie 1707 - Game Over

[wgeurts]

Oi, nobody votes me.
[V}Raskolnikov[/v]
As OMGUS

and your impossible to remember user name

[wgeurts]

VOTE: Raskolnikov

[wgeurts]

If only I were an adult though, it's also been said that I have the charm of a ragdoll before (though that was before my English improved).

Try again.

[wgeurts]

Right, moving on

[wgeurts]

I fear that half the newbies are going to have to be replaced after the crash :/

Pr-edit:
You literally posted that just before I made this, lol.

[wgeurts]

Also all over you not placing a random vote down any reason for doing so?

So far I've really got no information besides possibly Seth's post which seemed a bit forced, however some people just post like that. Also, I await the accusations of me throwing shade at Seth because he voted me

[wgeurts]

Kaladin, you just have become my main suspect right there.

You stating that you're a little suspicious of Seth because his post seemed strange seems a little opportunistic because of the fact I stated exactly that in my post, the one above yours directly. Three questions for you:

-Why is Seth's vote not a random vote like others according to you?
-Why aren't you voting Seth?
-Do you have prior experience of Mafia? If so could you link a game or two?

[wgeurts]

@ Kal and geurts

Why do either of you have suspicions about a single D1 poster ?

Seems more like Seth was acknowledging/poking an acquaintance with a throw-away D1 vote.

If you think it's more nefarious, please share why.

If you noticed I didn't vote, as there are plenty of other explanation for Seth's actions and I stated as such. Instead what I'm more attempting to do is get content building up through posting my thoughts (even if they are pretty much nonsense or as sturdy as a castle made out of sand) and having others react to them, which in turn leads to more reactions by which point the ball is rolling and we can finally play.

On the other hand though seth's post

does

feel quite forced, do you not feel so?

[wgeurts]

It's not as random cause it's the second vote on a person, with no real reason, but follow up votes are more suspicious than the first vote. Also you have a reason, joking revenge vote, he doesn't. I don't like to bounce my vote around so I wait to vote. Yes, I have done mafia before, a few games on gamefaqs, unsure if I'll be able to find links. Almost didn't post it for fear it'd be suspicious but didn't want to be silent.

Random votes often last a few pages, it being the second vote really doesn't say much at all. If seth is town he doesn't exactly have a lot of information to start building upon with the few posts before him. Do you follow what I'm saying? His post may read as forced but it may just be his style of posting, with him making an odd joke. It happens enough in games to be a viable possibility.

Newer players don't like voting a lot I've seen so fair enough there, why are you trying to not appear suspicious though? What would you reason for doing that be as town? I can't quite follow your motivation there and am leaning to saying that's likely scum behaviour.

[wgeurts]

Also newbie game's are the best place to find new acquaintances, as you can then brag you knew them before they became the new rising star.

[wgeurts]

The joke feels like he wanted to make a statement and appear likeable, though it's just a tonal thing and shouldn't be assigned much worth. It's not exactly the most objective of evidence however it's all I had to go with at first.

Thoughts on KS's post 20 though?

[wgeurts]

I'm afraid I got you to analyse the wrong post, I meant 18 sorry.
I made a post on it last page.

[wgeurts]

Also Sim, I'm liking what I'm seeing from you so far. Don't try and piece together any associative tells not based off cold hard flips or a mod-confirmed investigation result, they will collapse on you and it will hurt your game. Basing someone's alignment on someone's else's when you don't even know for sure the first is what you think he is, is a very weak construction and you'll find yourself making many mistakes as a result. You may also accidentally biasing yourself to see someone as a certain alignment which doesn't help either, basically don't do it.

What I'm seeing from KS so far is him copying me, seeming like he's trying to appear useful, justifying his reasons for doing so bordering excessively and then altogether suddenly dropping it, and also stating he doesn't want to appear suspicious. Now these make a lot of sense from a mafia minded point of view, and do so much from a town one. I'm waiting for a response though.

[wgeurts]

I made a few typos on my phone in that last post, one being KS's play doesn't make sense from a town point of view.

Also I'm really liking Murph's reaction by the way. That kind of "you're bloody well wrong and can go stuff it attitude" I see a lot from town.

{wgeurts}
{Simoyd, Murph}
{AlpacaAlpaca, SethYazura, Hoppic, Raskolnikov, RedCoyote}
{KaladinStormblessed}

[wgeurts]

Why aren't you voting him them?

[wgeurts]

Why aren't you voting him them?

To whom was this addressed ?

You.

[wgeurts]

Sim, what about the part where he literally states "Almost didn't post out of fear of being suspicious"?

[wgeurts]

Could you please find an example of a game where something like this happened?
It would make you a lot more believable.

[wgeurts]

Confession is good for the soul. If there is something you want to tell us, now would be the time.

Eh.

Wot.

[wgeurts]

@RedCoyote 70
I'm afraid that was a typo made on my phone's autocorrect, I meant all "off" you not all "over". That should clarify that a bit at least.

[wgeurts]

My first post wasn't forced, it's not an attempt on humor either, I made it sound strange on purpose.
If we don't lynch Murph now, we are just going to lynch him later because of how dangerous he sounds.
How about we lynch him now and start from there.
VOTE: MurphVOTE:
UNVOTE: wgeurts

What do you mean by "I made is sound strange on purpose".
I'm also not sure how I like your positioning, the way you've jumped into murf seems terribly suspect. Why are you scum-reading him?
Also know that if you are town, flash-lynching is never a good idea especially for the reasons you gave.

[wgeurts]

I can't avoid these typos at least once per post can I?

Anyway, I'll refresh my reads once I'm free. I'm liking rash's thought splurges as town, and on the other hand seths most recent post is something that is worthy of suspicion. I'll await his reaction though to see whether I'll follow up on that right now.

[wgeurts]

Big post incoming.

[wgeurts]

{wgeurts}
{Simoyd, Raskolnikov}
{Murph}
{AlpacaAlpaca, Hoppic}
{KaladinStormblessed, RedCoyote}
{SethYazura}

KaladinStormblessed

Kaladin's first post (16) doesn't sit well with me, it literally seems like he's just parroting what I said which could be a grasp at seeming useful and him not voting didn't help much either. I of cause start to push for this, to figure out what he's thinking. His first response in post 18 contains some weak justification for his suspicions and also provides a feasible explanation for his lack of vote, all in all this post is fine regarding his level of experience. The one thing in that post that feels off is him saying "Almost didn't post it for fear it'd be suspicious", in my opinion town really shouldn't be focused on what people think of them (yes, this got me lynched a lot in my early games but as you improve the amount that happens decreases too). Mafia have a reason to try and not look suspicious, so I could definetley fit this in as a possible scumslip. In his next post 20 he awkwardly drops the whole thing, as scum this could be him trying to escape pressure (though it can come from town as well, thinking of both motivations is key in this game though). Things start improving slightly after that though, post 46 seems town motivated as he's making a point of arguing why town should attempt to not look like mafia actively, his behaviour hasn't been what I'd expect from newer scum and instead he's making an effort to reach out and show why we are mistaken as town should. It's a shame he's not providing meta though as if he could provide example he would look even better.

All in all I'm happy he hasn't become overly paranoid/defensive, if he had done that we'd be hanging him right now. I'm not town reading him though, as I need to see some proper reads and content from him first. Null really right now.

Simoyd

Sim's first few posts are pretty good for town, I quite like how he instantly starts off questioning me in post 24. Of cause this could be him defending a scum buddy however this is not something that should be taken into consideration right now. Posts 29 and 43 are good as well, they show logical reasoning and thoughts that seem natural. This is abcked up by the fact he's also following up on these thoughts in his reads and actions, his train of thought is clear and that's what I like to see from town. Him also pushing murf but reconsidering after I gave some input in post 43 is another small thing that I'd expect to see from town sim. Scum, especially newer ones, have the tendency to create a set of reads and never deviate from them. They have a scum read and when they see an opportunity to get them they become much like a bloodhound. Sim's obviously listening to other player's thoughts and considering them, this is a really good sign. He's questioning people and trying to gather information, his push for more activity is also positive. Really I sometimes why he never voted murf so I'd like an explanation there. his most recent vote on Seth is decent as well in post 115/116.

Sim's line of thought is clear for all to see, and it seems to be coming from town right now. If he's scum he's going to have a hell of a time keeping up without slipping somewhere in his narrative.

AlpacaAlpaca

Alpaca's first post is okay I guess (post 92), it contains a lot of waffle though. There's some decent analysis but he seems to be all over the place and it's hard to grasp where he's at right now. When he's around to chat I'd like to interact with him to see what his thoughts and views are. I'd like a list of who he thinks is currently town or scum, along with some reasons explaining why. A vote would also be good. If he just coasts by for too long I'll consider pushing him.

SethYazura

Did I mention that seth's post 8

does

sound forced?
Anyway, that post is honestly worth nothing right now. His later posts are a lot more condemning. Post 86 seems quite defensive, stating that he "made it sound strange on purpose" seems a little unbelievable. His reasons for voting murph are also a little worrying: "If we don't lynch Murph now, we are just going to lynch him later because of how dangerous he sounds.
How about we lynch him now and start from there."
That is not a good reason to lynch anyone ever, and the spurring on of a flash-lynch is also nothing good. As town the only reason to justify his actions being that he's from another site where this is common in their meta, if he can provide games if this is the case I'll seriously reconsider. As scum it looks like he's possibly opportunistically jumping onto a popular suspect and trying to get a quick mislynch.

Post 90 doesn't help either: "sadly I can't tell you my secrets" here he claims his first post has some hidden (ever so obviously "pro-town") intention that he can't speak of right now. I have seen scum do this a lot, it makes it seem like you've got something going on and if you're lucky gets people off your back as a result. Read his first post for yourself, there's no way that's moving the game forward or got some super secret intent. Really. Common sense is something I'm known for as a player, more people should apply it. Him also adding a layer of WiFoM by stating he wouldn't do this as scum (so he therefore must be town) seems dodgy too. His most recent post 125 indirectly implies that he's town, it looks like him giving reads but really this post doesn't hold much at all.

Seth, is looking really dodgy right now. Scum.

Murph

Murph's first three posts are fine and I disagree with Sim that they look bad (sorry Sim, I feel you're starting to slightly conf-bias here.) they're not exactly brilliantly town though, his first post that I like is 30. Here he acts exactly how I would expect town to act in this situation if the genuinely believe what they're stating. It reads like he's wondering "is sim blind?" which is completely valid as the reasons sim went after him for are incredibly weak at that point. This is one of those gem posts you only ever find occasionally. However I can only really summarise his further posts like this: they're rather lacking and don't really contain much content. I mean, they contain the odd question here and there but there's no apparent follow up for anything and he's not pushing anyone. I want a list of reads and reasons from him as well, along with a vote somewhere. He can be weakly town for now.

Hoppic

Hoppic is not providing a lot of content however what's there is okay at most. Posts 103, 104 and 105 are barely enough to earn him a weak town read. I quite like how he states how it's easier to read someone once you've gotten to know how they think, as that's exactly how I work day 1. Really I'd like a list of reads and reasons for them from him as well, some pushing on someone would also be good.

Raskolnikov

I quite like Rask's thought splurges, his first one in post 72 is pretty good (also I love how he says the game doesn't deserve analysis yet and then goes ahead to make one of the largest analysis of the game at that time). I can understand his reasons behind his reads and they overlap largely with mine which is something I often take into mind (if player's are striving for the same goal you'd hope they draw some similar conclusions right?). Him engaging Sim in post 80 is another good post and really most of his posts since them have been of the same quality/relevance. I'm not sure whether I agree with his read on RC yet though, might change though as I'm about to ISO him soon as well. Town.

wgeurts

I'm town. Duh.

RedCoyote

Not entirely sure what to make of RC's post 70, his read on me is wrong and weak and he's not really explaining his thoughts in a detailed manner which makes things harder to decipher. His read on me mostly consists of the way I dealt with Seth's first post, I'll say once more that that whole ordeal was there to try and move the game forwards. Tonal reads are often trash, there's only a few that are good at using them and I'm not one of them. I'd like to have more thoughts from him along with a post regarding reads on everyone. I'm not seeing what's rask is seeing though, RC hasn't done anything inherently scummy. His push on me may be weak but it's hard to assign it scum intent right now. Weak push =/= scum.

[wgeurts]

VOTE: Seth

[wgeurts]

Oh yeah wgeurts, don't be afraid of sounding repetitive if you're saying any of the same things, that happens to me everytime I'm writing a big post and get ninja'd

My post was bigger than yours

[wgeurts]

Every should be aware that seth is at L-2 now, placing another vote places him at L-1.

[wgeurts]

I've got to have fun before getting night-killed for looking the most imposing (my gray name makes me look more experienced, lol. little do they know)

[wgeurts]

I can't believe I spelt grey like that.

[wgeurts]

I've got to have fun before getting night-killed for looking the most imposing (my gray name makes me look more experienced, lol. little do they know)

I'd like to hear more about exactly how this generates fun for you.

Getting killed night one does provide a certain level of satisfaction.

[wgeurts]

@ guerts

Nice snapshot of your thoughts. While I agree with most of them, you failed to address Hop's post

Code: Select all

 [quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7925865#p7925865]post 111[/url], Hoppic"][quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7925826#p7925826]post 110[/url], Simoyd"]@Hoppic: Raskolnikov has posted a lot. Does he not stand out a bit too? What do you think?[/quote]

I can't really understand what she (?) is saying.  A few players in this game are like that for me: raskolnokiv, you a bit and Murphy.  Maybe others.  I can understand individual words and sentences but overall I don't get it.[/quote]

(trying code :crossesfingers: )

What am I meant to respond to here?

[wgeurts]

Mmm, not too much to say since we agree on most things.
The only thing I can really mention is I think you're overanalysing just a bit, and on for example kali I wouldn't have bothered until they had posted more.
Was a little concerned you were trying-too-hard to look town but quick meta check has you doing this usually.

@Murph I was using code tags to illustrate my point, the actual thing I was suggesting was to just respond to posts like so

141
my response to this post

Don't attempt to meta read me.
My early days of mafia were either me getting lynched and the player's who knew me knowing that I always look scummy which helped nobody.
Now I'm aware of my meta and how I act as town, judging me by it in a game may prove harmful.

[wgeurts]

@wgeurts

Also just curious how do you phonetically pronounce your name?

I have some other stuff I need to respond to but I'll start here. I mentally pronounce it wuh-gurts.

[wgeurts]

I'm trying to lure scum to jump on the Murph lynch train, unfortunately the situation changed and turned against me, it's not for the bad though.
UNVOTE: Murph
I'm not surprised I'm at L-2 now, no one wants a person who hides information from town and suggests flash lynching with a lack of reasoning.
The reason I made that first post was to try to distinguish scum from town, how a scum and town would react to an odd doublevote post, this will be useful for me in the future.

This sounds really weak, and really feels like you trying to correct an earlier mistake to avoid pressure for it. Your spinning a wonderful narrative around you, except I'm afraid it has some flaws. That first post being a reaction test is absolute nonsense, it is obviously a RVS like any other. There is nothing significant about being the second player on an RVS wagon what so ever, nor did anyone react to you doing so thus "it being useful in the future" is utter crumpets as well. This sounds like your starting to trip yourself on the threads you've spun with lies. It's like exclaiming "you shall see the use of my actions in due time" after stealing someone's snack, it simply doesn't add up.

From what I've observed so far only the ppl who has made the analysis of scum so far are town.

Rarely will you see a scum make a long-ass detailed analysis post, though RedCoyote feels really off with his analysis, that's not what I expect from an experienced town player!

My first game as scum (and second game here) fully consisted of me spinning huge analysis walls wherever I could. Newer players that draw scum often have the issue that they try

too

hard, and they as such often trip as a result. RedCoyote has barely posted and since that post of his a lot of new information has arisen, he's null.

So what exactly are the specific results of your experiment?

The expirement will be worthless until the game is finished

Now then, logically speaking: if the experiment is useless until the end of the game why are you unable to explain what it is now? Experiments often take time before a conclusion can be drawn, however the methods used to draw a conclusion are known beforehand. Otherwise you're speaking crumpets as I suspect you are.

Ok let me ask you something more specific what did you mean in post 125 ? So are you just saying that everyone that had posted an analysis isn't scum period?

This is a newbie game, a game with the majority of players lacking experience, tell me the chances of a scum newbie making an analysis as detailed as wgeurts.
Raskol did say at one point that he loss the second newbie game because the scum was inactive and he only read the active posters and lynched all of them, who were all towns, let's apply that experience into this game, what if Hoppic and RedCoyote was the inactive scum?

The chances of a scum newbie making analysis as good as mine is small, however none of them have and I'm no newbie (neither is Rask or RC) so you've officially received no information as such. Congratulations. Keep making this stuff up.
The game's only just begun, way too short to start declaring people are lurkers.

It's not only luring people, it's to see how Murph would react to players voting him.

[wgeurts]

It's not only luring people, it's to see how Murph would react to players voting him.

This also seems like nonsense.

[wgeurts]

Hypothetically if Seth is lynched and flips town then we can analyze the wagon, but that applies to any townie so I'm not sure how that provides value to town. I remember reading some things on the wiki about martyrdom being a poor strategy too... Not sure how I feel about this explanation.

@Seth: What is your previous experience with mafia style games? How much have you played before this?

Associative tells are my thing and currently a lynch on murf or seth would be the best information-wise, however the day has barely begun so let's not rush it. The more interactions there are the more reliable associative tells become.

Also I don't see Seth lynching himself any time soon so there's no martyrdom going on here.

[wgeurts]

By martyrdom I only meant intentionally acting blatantly as scum, I don't mean voting himself.

Ah, that's usually referred to as Slayer's Gambit.

[wgeurts]

@Seth: Are you intentionally performing a Slayer's Gambit? If not, how does your experiment differ from said gambit?

What I'm doing is exactly Slayer's Gambit, interestingly enough I'm not yet aware of such an existing strategy until now.

Then you not yet being able to receive results is crumpets. You're contradicting yourself.

[wgeurts]

I have some stuff on hoppic for when I'm not on my phone.

[wgeurts]

Looking really a good day for scum at this point.
If I missed some questions then feel free to ask.

Why don't I get the feeling you're fighting to stop a mislynch here? You sound so dry.

[wgeurts]

Like there's none of the passion you get from new town getting lynched, this is more of a defeatist last attempt sounding post.

[wgeurts]

Also why would RC be deflecting attention from you Seth?
Unless you're both scum?
I don't want to make that claim now, though an RC flip may end this game day 2.

[wgeurts]

All you have to say against me is that I'm total nonsense and therefore crumpets, ironically your username can be described as crumpets.

Ironically it happens to be a mash-up of my actual name. Also resorting to jsut insulting a player pushing you is a commonly employed tactic for newer scum, just saying.

This sounds really weak, and really feels like you trying to correct an earlier mistake to avoid pressure for it.

That's not even a mistake and not the post that put me in L-2

So? Regardless you feel the need to spin a narrative around it and is one of the aspect being pushed against you.

That first post being a reaction test is absolute nonsense, it is obviously a RVS like any other.

How can you come up with that conclusion when I didn't say that it's not RVS, it's an RVS, but a doublevote and therefore bound to get a reaction, read the first few pages again, I used my first post to test the reactions of players, if KaladinStormblessed turns out to be scum at the end of the game, then I will now know how a scum would react to my odd first post, read Kala's reaction.

A doublevote has literally zero significance at all, there's no reaction to be drawn from it. You know how KS is new though and therefore mistakenly assigned worth to it though? It sounds like you're just trying to spin a story around to try and esape the sticky situation you're in. However it doesn't add up. KS is also one unexperienced player so there's literally nothing data wise that you'll recieve, the sample size is non-existant. You're speaking nonsense. Also what if KS is just protecting me hypothetically as a partner? There's too many variables.

There is nothing significant about being the second player on an RVS wagon what so ever, nor did anyone react to you doing so thus "it being useful in the future" is utter crumpets as well.

Have you forgotten Post #16 up until Page 2, I am certain it's

SIGNIFICANT

if it sparked a discussion

Except, it didn't. I mentioned your tone however there was nothing about your vote. I also stated I just went for the smallest possible thing to spark discussion. It was I, not you, who got things rolling.

This sounds like your starting to trip yourself on the threads you've spun with lies. It's like exclaiming "you shall see the use of my actions in due time" after stealing someone's snack, it simply doesn't add up.

'Sigh' if only I clarified further that by future, i mean

future games

.

Even then it doesn't hold up, there's no data to be drawn at all. You've got nothing you need for such an experiment. There's not a large enough sample-size, and you haven't taken into account any variables. I think you're making this up as you go along as otherwise you would have known this.

My first game as scum (and second game here) fully consisted of me spinning huge analysis walls wherever I could. Newer players that draw scum often have the issue that they try

too

hard, and they as such often trip as a result.

Not everyone is wgeurts and crumpets like you, this is Mafiascum, not Crumpetscum.

Another disrep, resort to my logic only please instead of trying to make me look bad without actually doing anything. It's a common scum tactic when someone's trapped. I believe you are scum. Also as off now I can outplay you as any alignment, mind your insults.

Now then, logically speaking: if the experiment is useless until the end of the game why are you unable to explain what it is now? Experiments often take time before a conclusion can be drawn, however the methods used to draw a conclusion are known beforehand. Otherwise you're speaking crumpets as I suspect you are.

why are you unable to explain what it is now? Experiments often take time before a conclusion can be drawn, however the methods used to draw a conclusion are known beforehand. Otherwise you're speaking crumpets as I suspect you are.

Experiments often take time before a conclusion can be drawn, however the methods used to draw a conclusion are known beforehand. Otherwise you're speaking crumpets as

methods used to draw a conclusion are known beforehand.

I am unable to explain what it's now because I can't draw any useful information from it until the game is finished, what deeply concerns me is why you said that the methods are known beforehand, I said before that the reaction test is the experiment, not sure if you skim through a lot of pages, ignorant, or a %#!$@&^ scum who fu*&#% up and fell into my trap, there is no need to point out such information to back up your claim if you're town, you just wanted to take advantage of the air of suspicion that wraps around me to get me lynched. Your spinning a wonderful narrative around you, except I'm afraid it has some flaws, you can only go so far.

YOU CAN'T DRAW ANY INFORMATION AT ALL. Why did you claim this was secret anyway? An experiment has no need for secrecy. Now, answer my accusations and reasoning instead of just yelling and disrepping. You're doing a good job of playing text-book newb-scum when trapped. Everybody should take note of the sudden tone change, defensive and agressive as it's a last resort to remove an attacker.

This also seems like nonsense.

If you're really an experienced player, you should know how to townread based on the player's reactions.

And oh I do. Take this for instance.

Associative tells are my thing and currently a lynch on murf or seth would be the best information-wise, however the day has barely begun so let's not rush it. The more interactions there are the more reliable associative tells become.

Also I don't see Seth lynching himself any time soon so there's no martyrdom going on here.

Explain how I would be best information-wise, the scum doesn't even have to lift a finger to get me lynched, the whole town is on me and they can just keep low.

Most player's have had an interaction with you, if you flip you can analyse how they did those. I can explain associative analysis in another post.

Looking really a good day for scum at this point.
If I missed some questions then feel free to ask.

Why don't I get the feeling you're fighting to stop a mislynch here? You sound so dry.

Don't worry you don't need to feel that, btw you look like wet crumpets though so we're even.

ooh, another insult. "Let's insult this guy to make others think he isn't reliable without having to touch his actual logic". Been there, dont that.

Like there's none of the passion you get from new town getting lynched, this is more of a defeatist last attempt sounding post.

Why do you play Mafia? What makes you play Mafia? It's like you just enjoy living in the suffering of a Vanilla Townie getting lynched with L-2 on him, this makes me feel like you're anti-town and you endulge in your sadistic tendencies here. Why do you sound so victorious? Day 1 didn't even finish yet and your glorious truimph of hanging someone would turn into a sad ending after it finished.

I play it to improve various skills, and I enjoy the challenge. You aren't acting how newer town would when in a situation like this.

Also why would RC be deflecting attention from you Seth?
Unless you're both scum?
I don't want to make that claim now, though an RC flip may end this game day 2.

RC has been only the player I witnessed so far to do that, so I honestly don't know, town and scum here have their own valid reasons on hopping on my lynch wagon, but why would RC try to suggest to change the wagon into Hoppip? If he is scum why would he do so when it attracts mass attention? If he is my scum partner he would bus me since he's experienced.

Depends, in a newbie game it sometimes feels harsh to bus a partner. Especially if they are new. Also losing your only partner is not benefitial day 1.

[wgeurts]

Everybody please take a good look at how he's suddenly acting. After me pushing him and him suddenly making additions and changes to justify his actions, he then realises I'm not dropping my push that easily and he starts insulting me and becoming agressive. As scum, this can be explained by paranoia and the realisation that a player has got you nailed. Disrepping someone makes them seem bad, helping your cause, despite you not having to face their reasoning and cases. People will trust someone less if they fall for the insults even though their logic remains as valid.

If you cannot offer any alternative for my case or point out why I'm wrong you should consider why you're not supporting my push.

[wgeurts]

I'll explain in more detail why his experiment is pure nonsense:

You are all full of boredom, accusing clearly innocent people without further ado.
Don't be fooled by wgeurts, he's a captivating charmer that in reality, he's ISIS in disguise, adults who still believe in religion because they didn't grow up.
VOTE: wgeurts

Read this.

Now it looks like any other RVS vote right?

Later he claims it's got some hidden pro-town intent, which even later changes to an experiment which can only be explained in the future. Why an experiment would have to be secret (also if it is secret why so willingly explain it later?) is beyond me. The experiment is apparently to see how people react to a double vote in RVS. Well.

Firstly a double vote has no significane, secondly only one person mentioned it, thirdly he doesn't have the sample size to be able to draw any conclusions. One player's reaction isn't enough. Further more he hasn't stated how he's taking into account the alignment of who he's voting in comparison to those reacting. If he were truly doing an experiment he would know of all this. He may be new, however he claims to be 26 and should therefore know all this. Which apparently he doesn't.

[wgeurts]

I play it to improve various skills, and I enjoy the challenge

The challenge starts after I get lynched, Not implying that you will lose that one though.

You aren't acting how newer town would when in a situation like this.

Don't assume that every newly registered user in mafiascum = new to mafia

If you're experienced it just makes the whole situation worse, as it invalidates any chance of you just making newb mistakes.

[wgeurts]

Seth, if you are by some miracle town then give me a detailed analysis on everyone. We need your thoughts regardless of what we do.

[wgeurts]

I don't think you understand how I think town should act in the optimal scenario, as it influences my playstyle. I believe that town should always put all their thoughts out for others to see, everything. Reads should be developed by people pointing out flaws in certain things you have and vise-versa and constant revaluation should be going on. This not only means that reads are a lot more trustworthy as a lot more perspectives have been taken into consideration, it also makes it a darn lot harder for scum to hide.

[wgeurts]

RC, I'm claiming seths thing isn't a bloody reaction test at all.
Also I'm liking you less as a Seth partner right now, that was an off-hand comment that should be disregarded.

[wgeurts]

Also murf, newer scum players make mistakes such as drawing too much attention. Too scummy to be scum is an absolute fallacy.

[wgeurts]

@Wgeurts Who would you speculate as seth's partner? I'm not as confident on seth as before.

I'm going to avoid further speculation with pre flip associatives, it doesn't help anyone.

Everyone suddenly changing their Seth read care to explain why?
Just changing a read without explanation or offering alternative explanations is reallt detrimental to the town.

[wgeurts]

RC is an awful lynch, look how everyone has piled on without explanation of why he is actually scum. Hell, just lurched at it opportunistically!
Seth has actually got cases on him and provides information regardless which way he flips. What does RC have? I haven't seen a single case and the way people are piling on passively is dodgy.

[wgeurts]

Misread, KS just piled on.
This wagon stinks though.

[wgeurts]

I'll reconsider if someone posts a case and I'll take another look tomorrow but I'm not seeing anything inherently scummy.

[wgeurts]

Hoppic or one of the lurkers are possible partners too.
Or anyone playing a good game and bussing.

Pre-flip is a big no, always.

[wgeurts]

Going to post some today, stay tuned.

[wgeurts]

Also Red Coyote I literally haven't drawn scum in over 1-2 years.

[wgeurts]

I for one would happily bus my partner to pulp.

[wgeurts]

Anyway i'm rereading the game so I'll see what I can draw from that.

[wgeurts]

Sorry I haven't posted yet, I'm writing another monster wall and found myself getting bored roughly halfway and I don't want to skimp on areas. Will get it finished tomorrow.

[wgeurts]

Just want to point out how it doesn't sit well with me how Seth is using the partner thing, which I think is nonsense and will explain in my big post, a lot more after someone raised that point. He's not showing town play however he is jumping at any opportunity to get free.

[wgeurts]

Also your players gambit is non existent so no worries, I won't ever be taking it into consideration

[wgeurts]

Also weren't the results for post-game?
How can it thus be defunct?

[wgeurts]

Okay I've run into a post by Seth that is really making me think about his alignment. I'll get to it in my large post however know that I've just thrown a spanner into my own game view. The issue is that it could still come from scum, but the town explanation for his actions has become a bit more credible as a result of this one thing.

[wgeurts]

All right, Seth you're going to do what I say right now.

Give me a list of everyone in the game, ordered in likelihood of being scum. I don't want to see you posting anything until you've done this. If you're town you're being a liability by not posting any reads.

[wgeurts]

Scum are in {hoppic, RC, Seth}, any pairing possible besides {hoppic, RC}.
I'm confident I've got at least one here. If not both then the final is probably KS.

pr-edit:
Well, this makes a difference. Seth is either scum or completely incompetent at this game.

[wgeurts]

Hey sim, shall we form a scum bloc?

[wgeurts]

Nah, I'm sarcastically referencing the post where Seth calls us both his two top scum-reads while you are my top town read.

[wgeurts]

Nah, I'm sarcastically referencing the post where Seth calls us both his two top scum-reads while you are my top town read.

Ur in my head. It's scary. hehe.

I'm completely new to Mafia. Only knew about the game's existence like a couple weeks ago, so I dunno, maybe my arguments are crumpets. I feel like I've done a good job being clear. I'm a senior software developer, so logic and technical communication are my strong suits. Although this is more about motivation discovery and less about production requirements, I feel it ultimately still boils down to root cause analysis. I'm not seeking validation, but I would like to hear everyone's updated opinion. The weekend has been kinda silent (not complaining, just hoping it will pick up again during the week).

I mention this in the large post I'm writing right now, but you've got potential. Maybe one of the reasons I town read you so strongly is because I'm able to understand where you're heading with your thoughts as they are similar to mine. You're approaching the game from a rational perspective and are posting a lot of what you think.

I personally usually have adequate reads day one through motivation analysis, though it's not uncommon for me to do an 180 after day one. Once I've got flips I'm able to look at people's interaction with the dead players and see what interactions are more likely to come from which alignment. For instance the way some people town read a dead town player is important, there's a difference between scum doing it and town. How scum reads are made on a scum flip is also important, finding what is logical and what is forced.

[wgeurts]

I'm actually going to go ahead and meta-game that clarification and ask who sent it. There's information to be drawn from that.

[wgeurts]

Man, this case on Seth is making me all bubbly.
Like, I've found some major flaws in his narration.

[wgeurts]

There's some outright logical contradictions which show he's making stuff up as he's going along.

[wgeurts]

{wgeurts}
{Simoyd}
{Raskolnikov, Murph}
{AlpacaAlpaca}
{KaladinStormblessed}
{Hoppic, RedCoyote}
{SethYazura}

KaladinStormblessed

As I explained in my last wall-post KaladinStormblessed's first posts are a little dodgy, if you can't recall why go take a look at my ISO and scroll to my last wall to refresh yourself on why I think this. My thoughts regarding that haven't changed at all since then, hence I'm not going to talk much about it here. His posts as off recently have all been rather lacking. He's posting the odd comment here and there however there's a distinct lack of clear game-solving trains of thought and it's safe to say there is close to no scum hunting. He may have a scum read or two yes, however has he been actively interrogating them and trying to figure out whether his suspicions are correct through pressure? No. The only reason I'm not willing to put him down as scum right now is the fact that that doesn't fit into any game-view I can currently visualise. He could be apathetic town playing a bit poorly, and I deem him one of those players better left until later to definitively sort. With a few flips associative tells should shed some insight to his alignment, as they could provide the needed information to make a distinction between coasting scum and apathetic town. I would not bet money on him flipping town, however I wouldn't do so either saying he's scum.

Simoyd

I find myself quite liking Simoyd's play, not just as town but in general how he's doing; he has got a lot of potential to become a good player (he's logical and he's putting effort into trying to think things through etc.). My early game perspective on his alignment hasn't changed either, despite his read on Murf being faulty for a while he is showing what town should be showing: structured thoughts and reasoning, easy enough to follow allowing player's to see how reads and views have developed over time. The fact he is actively engaging with the game is a good sign, and besides his activity he's dropping a lot of those small tells town tend to drop. The way he went about encouraging people to post more in post 56 and further posts is one, accepting other's opinions and seemingly evaluating them and occasionally changing as a result is another one, and general detailed analysis on player's posts (displaying considerations of conflicting perspectives) is yet another good sign he's town. Sim's new to the site, I would be genuinely amazed if he as scum managed to take such a steering, engaged role in discussion without slipping somewhere.

AlpacaAlpaca

After analysis of further posts by Alpaca and review of his previous ones I'm willing to say he's likely town. I originally had issues with his first post, 92, however taking into consideration he's a newer play I no longer do. His thoughts there on Murf are valid, as are his comments on KS and Seth. They may be weak, however him being a newer play can explain the slight uncertainty in the post. He's made a few posts which seem to display him trying to figure out people's motivations; posts 117, 156 and 348 are the strongest examples of this. He's taking the reasons for doing something as scum and town both into consideration, and due to this line of thought he has earned a weak town read. He may be wrong or sometimes mistaken, yet once more: being wrong isn't always a scum-tell. The difference between the comments he's making compared to KS for instance is that his comments and questions seem natural if you try to follow his line of thought. They aren't just things placed here and there illogically, they arise after he's already mentioned something earlier related to the topic and he seems to use the answers he gets in his reads. All in all, it would be great if Alpaca posted a bit more. If he were to do what he's currently doing more frequently, while also taking more effort to push him scum reads, he may be able to bump himself up to a more firm position on my reads-list.

SethYazura

Right, I'm going to really focus one what I'm scum reading seth for here: what I deem him making stuff up to try and justify actions. Instead of just referencing post numbers I'll actually quote them to make it easier for people to follow and decide whether they see what I am seeing or not. Seth starts the game with the following post:

You are all full of boredom, accusing clearly innocent people without further ado.
Don't be fooled by wgeurts, he's a captivating charmer that in reality, he's ISIS in disguise, adults who still believe in religion because they didn't grow up.
VOTE: wgeurts

It raises some discussion due to me picking on it to try and get the game's ball rolling, and it did. The was some discussion on whether there was anything to be drawn from its tone or not, and only KS mentions something about it being the second vote on a wagon in his post 18. Seth is away for a while and eventually returns with this post:

My first post wasn't forced, it's not an attempt on humor either, I made it sound strange on purpose.
If we don't lynch Murph now, we are just going to lynch him later because of how dangerous he sounds.
How about we lynch him now and start from there.
VOTE: Murph
UNVOTE: wgeurts

Mod Edit: Fixed vote tags

Now, he hints there was some secret intent hidden in his original post here. Why do I deem that to be a lie? Because I've actually read his first post, you should as well. There's nothing special about it what so ever. What would the scum motivation be for lying it had extra intent? As Seth is a newer player it would be understandable for him to be paranoid of any suspicion at all. Hell, most newer player's flip out when exposed to pressure for the first time. This could be a way of trying to avoid any further suspicion.
What makes this post worse is how he just suddenly votes Murf in such an opportunistic manner, stating we should flash-lynch him. This is a bad post, so naturally I pressured him for it and got the following response:

What do you mean by "I made is sound strange on purpose".

It was to attract attention and immediately get the game going, but it's more than that, sadly I can't tell you my secrets.

I'm also not sure how I like your positioning, the way you've jumped into murf seems terribly suspect

How does that make me terribly suspect? A suspect is one that acts like scum, a scum pretends to be town, what I'm doing is the total opposite of that.

Also know that if you are town, flash-lynching is never a good idea especially for the reasons you gave.

Sure

He now claims it was to get the game going (an obviously pro-town motivation, yet how does his first post accomplish this may I ask?) and states that his first post holds some secret. He also claims that he can't be scum because scum would never act like scum, which is a fallacy. If scum never acted like scum then player's would never be able to catch scum as the scum would all be acting town. However that isn't the case; people make mistakes, newer people making them the most. He's also resorting to Wifom with that statement which is a little worrying too. So me being the mafia god (ego, what ego?) I am naturally pressure him for this all, which leads to this post by him:

I'm trying to lure scum to jump on the Murph lynch train, unfortunately the situation changed and turned against me, it's not for the bad though.
UNVOTE: Murph
I'm not surprised I'm at L-2 now, no one wants a person who hides information from town and suggests flash lynching with a lack of reasoning.
The reason I made that first post was to try to distinguish scum from town, how a scum and town would react to an odd doublevote post, this will be useful for me in the future.

This post seems to be him once again claiming there's some secret intent behind his actions, and it looks to me like a pattern is arising. He's made a mistake, thus he corrects it by twisting some narrative around it making it seem pro-town. Luckily for us, he slips and starts contradicting himself here later on. The first contradictions are made in this post: A, why would a reaction test need to be secret if it's results will only be available post-game? and B, he claims that the first post is able to distinguish town from scum based off reactions to it, however as there's nothing special about that post in mention it can't be used to garner reactions. I've made posts before explaining why I don't buy him planning this all, many things are missing and if you ISO me I've probably mentioned them like a broken record. He also makes the following claim:

It's not only luring people, it's to see how Murph would react to players voting him.

Which is obviously crumpets, ISO him and you will not find him analysing Murf's reaction to votes on him anywhere.

@Seth: Are you intentionally performing a Slayer's Gambit? If not, how does your experiment differ from said gambit?

What I'm doing is exactly Slayer's Gambit, interestingly enough I'm not yet aware of such an existing strategy until now.

Here with contradiction "C". He says he's doing slayer's gambit, however slayer's gambit involves playing like scum to analyse how people attack you. Now this fits his pattern of making a mistake and then claiming it all had some hidden town intent later when it's obvious he's not doing a very good job of justifying himself. Now if what he says here is true, that means that all his earlier play was done with the intent of not looking like town. Which implicates that the claims he made about earlier so-called reactions tests (ie, his first post and his vote on Murf) are a bunch of lies there to try and make us think he is scum. Thus if he continues to claim those prior reaction test were pro-town, he's contradicting himself. You cannot be playing pro-town and pulling off the slayer gambit at the same time due to the slayer's gambit involving you acting anti-town. Let's see what comes next: post 252 which I responded to earlier. I'll spoiler my response and his post otherwise I'd be quoting a wall in a wall.

Spoiler: Wall spoilered in a wall... wallception

All you have to say against me is that I'm total nonsense and therefore crumpets, ironically your username can be described as crumpets.

Ironically it happens to be a mash-up of my actual name. Also resorting to jsut insulting a player pushing you is a commonly employed tactic for newer scum, just saying.

This sounds really weak, and really feels like you trying to correct an earlier mistake to avoid pressure for it.

That's not even a mistake and not the post that put me in L-2

So? Regardless you feel the need to spin a narrative around it and is one of the aspect being pushed against you.

That first post being a reaction test is absolute nonsense, it is obviously a RVS like any other.

How can you come up with that conclusion when I didn't say that it's not RVS, it's an RVS, but a doublevote and therefore bound to get a reaction, read the first few pages again, I used my first post to test the reactions of players, if KaladinStormblessed turns out to be scum at the end of the game, then I will now know how a scum would react to my odd first post, read Kala's reaction.

A doublevote has literally zero significance at all, there's no reaction to be drawn from it. You know how KS is new though and therefore mistakenly assigned worth to it though? It sounds like you're just trying to spin a story around to try and esape the sticky situation you're in. However it doesn't add up. KS is also one unexperienced player so there's literally nothing data wise that you'll recieve, the sample size is non-existant. You're speaking nonsense. Also what if KS is just protecting me hypothetically as a partner? There's too many variables.

There is nothing significant about being the second player on an RVS wagon what so ever, nor did anyone react to you doing so thus "it being useful in the future" is utter crumpets as well.

Have you forgotten Post #16 up until Page 2, I am certain it's

SIGNIFICANT

if it sparked a discussion

Except, it didn't. I mentioned your tone however there was nothing about your vote. I also stated I just went for the smallest possible thing to spark discussion. It was I, not you, who got things rolling.

This sounds like your starting to trip yourself on the threads you've spun with lies. It's like exclaiming "you shall see the use of my actions in due time" after stealing someone's snack, it simply doesn't add up.

'Sigh' if only I clarified further that by future, i mean

future games

.

Even then it doesn't hold up, there's no data to be drawn at all. You've got nothing you need for such an experiment. There's not a large enough sample-size, and you haven't taken into account any variables. I think you're making this up as you go along as otherwise you would have known this.

My first game as scum (and second game here) fully consisted of me spinning huge analysis walls wherever I could. Newer players that draw scum often have the issue that they try

too

hard, and they as such often trip as a result.

Not everyone is wgeurts and crumpets like you, this is Mafiascum, not Crumpetscum.

Another disrep, resort to my logic only please instead of trying to make me look bad without actually doing anything. It's a common scum tactic when someone's trapped. I believe you are scum. Also as off now I can outplay you as any alignment, mind your insults.

Now then, logically speaking: if the experiment is useless until the end of the game why are you unable to explain what it is now? Experiments often take time before a conclusion can be drawn, however the methods used to draw a conclusion are known beforehand. Otherwise you're speaking crumpets as I suspect you are.

why are you unable to explain what it is now? Experiments often take time before a conclusion can be drawn, however the methods used to draw a conclusion are known beforehand. Otherwise you're speaking crumpets as I suspect you are.

Experiments often take time before a conclusion can be drawn, however the methods used to draw a conclusion are known beforehand. Otherwise you're speaking crumpets as

methods used to draw a conclusion are known beforehand.

I am unable to explain what it's now because I can't draw any useful information from it until the game is finished, what deeply concerns me is why you said that the methods are known beforehand, I said before that the reaction test is the experiment, not sure if you skim through a lot of pages, ignorant, or a %#!$@&^ scum who fu*&#% up and fell into my trap, there is no need to point out such information to back up your claim if you're town, you just wanted to take advantage of the air of suspicion that wraps around me to get me lynched. Your spinning a wonderful narrative around you, except I'm afraid it has some flaws, you can only go so far.

YOU CAN'T DRAW ANY INFORMATION AT ALL. Why did you claim this was secret anyway? An experiment has no need for secrecy. Now, answer my accusations and reasoning instead of just yelling and disrepping. You're doing a good job of playing text-book newb-scum when trapped. Everybody should take note of the sudden tone change, defensive and agressive as it's a last resort to remove an attacker.

This also seems like nonsense.

If you're really an experienced player, you should know how to townread based on the player's reactions.

And oh I do. Take this for instance.

Associative tells are my thing and currently a lynch on murf or seth would be the best information-wise, however the day has barely begun so let's not rush it. The more interactions there are the more reliable associative tells become.

Also I don't see Seth lynching himself any time soon so there's no martyrdom going on here.

Explain how I would be best information-wise, the scum doesn't even have to lift a finger to get me lynched, the whole town is on me and they can just keep low.

Most player's have had an interaction with you, if you flip you can analyse how they did those. I can explain associative analysis in another post.

Looking really a good day for scum at this point.
If I missed some questions then feel free to ask.

Why don't I get the feeling you're fighting to stop a mislynch here? You sound so dry.

Don't worry you don't need to feel that, btw you look like wet crumpets though so we're even.

ooh, another insult. "Let's insult this guy to make others think he isn't reliable without having to touch his actual logic". Been there, dont that.

Like there's none of the passion you get from new town getting lynched, this is more of a defeatist last attempt sounding post.

Why do you play Mafia? What makes you play Mafia? It's like you just enjoy living in the suffering of a Vanilla Townie getting lynched with L-2 on him, this makes me feel like you're anti-town and you endulge in your sadistic tendencies here. Why do you sound so victorious? Day 1 didn't even finish yet and your glorious truimph of hanging someone would turn into a sad ending after it finished.

I play it to improve various skills, and I enjoy the challenge. You aren't acting how newer town would when in a situation like this.

Also why would RC be deflecting attention from you Seth?
Unless you're both scum?
I don't want to make that claim now, though an RC flip may end this game day 2.

RC has been only the player I witnessed so far to do that, so I honestly don't know, town and scum here have their own valid reasons on hopping on my lynch wagon, but why would RC try to suggest to change the wagon into Hoppip? If he is scum why would he do so when it attracts mass attention? If he is my scum partner he would bus me since he's experienced.

Depends, in a newbie game it sometimes feels harsh to bus a partner. Especially if they are new. Also losing your only partner is not benefitial day 1.

It may be long but I urge you to read it all, really notice how his tone becomes aggressive and he starts utilising ad hominem once I've made it very darn clear I'm not dropping the push on him. This player hasn't posted a single proper read and is using every trick in the book to try and stop the attack against him

besides improving his play and acting pro-town

. He's insulted his attackers, straw-manned our arguments (declaring we have nothing against him besides calling his points "crumpets" which is obviously not the case) and spun a wonderful tale about oh how town he is through all his anti-town actions. The cherry on the top is this final post:

All right, Seth you're going to do what I say right now.

Give me a list of everyone in the game, ordered in likelihood of being scum. I don't want to see you posting anything until you've done this. If you're town you're being a liability by not posting any reads.

Scum to Town, from top to bottom
1.wgeurts
2.Simonyd
3.Hoppic
4.Murph
5.KaladinStormblessed
6.Raskolnikov
7.AlpacaAlpaca
8.RedCoyote
9.SethYazura

wgeurts and Simonyd are now my strongest scum reads, if you argue with those two people, they won't find a contradiction in your argument, but instead say you are nonsense and crumpets, the "WIFOM blah blah blah so you are scum", the "I know scum behavior means that a scum is behaving like town, town behavior is genuinely town, but if someone attracts hoards of suspicion on purpose then he must be hanged immediately"!
Simonyd and wgeurts are now controlling the game and no one will ever believe that they are scum, the rest will parrot those two except RedCoyote, because if RedCoyote is scum then he will also call me nonsense, why would a scum defend a townie that has already several knives on his throat and a rope already tied on his neck?
If you two, Simonyd and wgeurts want me to believe you are rightfully town, then how about finding the contradictions in my argument, you two deny almost everything I have said, call me nonsense, and the rest will parrot and sheep you two.

Of course this post will be also called nonsense and crumpets.

I need not say anything about this post, if you don't see how it's dreadful then you're blind. If you insist I can guide you through it if you truly are so unfortunate.

Will write the final 4 in a separate post as this is getting too long.

[wgeurts]

I'm willing to policy lynch Seth due to that readslist alone, someone playing like that is going to coast to lylo and lose us the game.

[wgeurts]

Also why isn't Seth voting his top scum reads?

[wgeurts]

I'm taking a break right now but ill get it done soon.

[wgeurts]

Also why isn't Seth voting his top scum reads?

Doesn't matter anymore, it won't change the outcome.

What the heck is this, if you're truly scum reading me push me and engage me. Stop wallowing in self pity.
I've been reaching out to you a lot, giving you a chance if you're town. If you flip town know that I gave you an opportunity to prove yourself.

[wgeurts]

Seth, I'm playing this game to potentially help newer players grow.
If you're town do something like I have, step away and reread later after any bias is gone. Then make a post explaining all your thoughts. People may not agree but that's part of it, you need to interact and engage and consider other's opinions.

[wgeurts]

{wgeurts}
{Simoyd}
{Raskolnikov, Murph}
{AlpacaAlpaca}
{KaladinStormblessed}
{Hoppic, RedCoyote}
{SethYazura}

I need not say anything about this post, if you don't see how it's dreadful then you're blind. If you insist I can guide you through it if you truly are so unfortunate.
.

I've already explained how it can be scum play.

Yes, that would be good if you could explain why you don't like this list. Thanks.

So far, you've explained why Seth's actions don't make sense to you. The thing is, they don't make sense as scum OR as town. So why do you think he's scum?

[wgeurts]

Wow.
I've already explained how it can be scum play.

[wgeurts]

What will you gain if I flip town?

Can you imagine seth being around still hurting town on day two?

I'm willing to policy lynch Seth due to that readslist alone, someone playing like that is going to coast to lylo and lose us the game.

yup

How can one player coast to lylo? This makes no sense. One vote isn't enough to do that and the game will change after the first flip whatever it is.

Also I really dislike this logic of let's lynch him for being a bad town player... in a beginner's game on day 1. A policy lynch? I don't think so.

If we don't lynch him and he is town he won't ever get killed by the mafia. Simple as that. In lylo we will lose as a result.

[wgeurts]

Red Coyote, me not having drawn scum in so long was a comment for people to take into consideration of the thought I could play a great scum game.

[wgeurts]

Policy is because He's intentionally behaving as scum, which he has openly confirmed and admitted.

I can't tell the difference between his ego motivation and scum motivation. It's entirely possible he has both. I don't see any town motivation in any of his posts.

Yes it would be stupid for scum to behave like this, but it's also stupid for town to behave like that, so I don't understand that argument...

He claims to no longer be acting as scum. If town never act like scum there would never be a way to catch scum. Players can and do play awfully as scum, if you suspect someone of doing go know that too scummy to be scum is false.

[wgeurts]

I may have a blind spot to Seth. I just don't see anything particularly negative there. Perhaps if someone presented a formal case against him I could be persuaded.

...

[wgeurts]

Also I really dislike this logic of let's lynch him for being a bad town player... in a beginner's game on day 1. A policy lynch? I don't think so.

I think that players need to defend themselves. I don't see Seth doing that.

So all of my past posts intended to defend myself is not actually defense in your book?
I can't give you a scum read as I don't trust everyone else except KaladinStormblessed for the newbtowniness and RedCoyote not pushing to lynch me when he has the perfect opportunity to do so without drawing suspicion on himself. I only explained wgeurts and Simonyd as the rest of the players are parroting them except RC.
If you can't decide I am town, but can't decide I am scum either, don't push me for a lynch, I asked you a question what will you gain if I flip town, and who is my partner if I am scum? Of course you ignored this and call it nonsense.
Emotions do sway and influence posts and the players won't even notice this, we can quickly notice this in another player if I am actually scum.

Hoppic and RC would make perfect sense as partners to be honest.
Also saying we're just calling all your stuff crumpets which isnt the case is not a defense.

[wgeurts]

Red Coyote, me not having drawn scum in so long was a comment for people to take into consideration of the thought I could play a great scum game.

Heh

Also saying we're just calling all your stuff crumpets which isnt the case is not a defense.

Why did you deny that you're calling my stuff crumpets, calling me crumpets means you can't understand me or you are being ignorant, this is significant enough to be a case. You are pressing on me for a lynch when you admit you can't even understand what I'm saying.

I wont deny I'm calling your posts that, but ive explained why I believe that which you refuse to touch.

[wgeurts]

A single mislynch will put you at a MyLo, you lynch me knowing this don't you? Are you certain your next lynches after I flip town will be correct? How so?

Actually we have 3 mislynches before loss.

[wgeurts]

Also I've already suggested two partners.
You're flip would be a gold mine for associate tells either way it goes.

[wgeurts]

@murph: do you think he's town?

I have a hard time believing scum would play it like this. With that said, Seth's play has been anything but conventional. So :shrug:

Rather than push the policy lynch, it would be best for the game, and perhaps the town, if Seth requested replacement over resignation. We'd then have an opportunity to scrutinize Seth's role from a fresh perspective rather than our current combative player on the verge of quitting.

Strategic replacement is against the rules and can get you banned.

[wgeurts]

Also I'm definitely not proposing a policy lynch on Seth.
Going to write my analysis on the final few players now.

[wgeurts]

@murph: do you think he's town?

I have a hard time believing scum would play it like this. With that said, Seth's play has been anything but conventional. So :shrug:

Rather than push the policy lynch, it would be best for the game, and perhaps the town, if Seth requested replacement over resignation. We'd then have an opportunity to scrutinize Seth's role from a fresh perspective rather than our current combative player on the verge of quitting.

Strategic replacement is against the rules and can get you banned.

I'm not sure what strategic replacement is however I've only played one game at this site and there were like at least 8 replacements if not more in that game.


My point being, if Seth doesn't care to play the game and wants out, then replace him before policy lynching him.

Seems prudent and pro-town imo

Basically replacing out for anything game related besides finding the game too toxic etc. is not allowed. Being too busy or site-flaking isn't game related for instance and is allowed for a reason to replace out.

[wgeurts]

If been a bit busy the last few days, going to post that second part of my wall and catch-up later.

[wgeurts]

Right, can we not hammer just yet.

I'm catching up right here and want to get my thoughts in.

[wgeurts]

Scum to Town, from top to bottom
1.wgeurts
2.Simonyd
3.Hoppic
4.Murph
5.KaladinStormblessed
6.Raskolnikov
7.AlpacaAlpaca
8.RedCoyote
9.SethYazura[/b]

Someone asked me why I thought this reads-list was terrible so here's why (although it's like 10 pages back but whatever).
To start off with, he is scum-reading the two players who at that point in time where the most globally-town read. Now you could say that's good as it may be town daring to challenge the popular opinion, I disagree. There's a reason me and Sim were town read: we were acting town. To just plonk these two reads up there and not make at least a small case explaining them is not town challenging the popular opinion and sharing his own. Like, way to go putting your main critics as your first bets for scum. He hadn't even voted one of us either, why?
Also notice how the reads seem to also go from "pushing him most" to "pushing him least". He's just put together a bunch of reads that seem completely illogical and then has proceeded to not explain them, that looks like what we call a "fake reads-list".

[wgeurts]

Hoppic seems like such a good compromise lynch for all of you that cannot agree on Seth or me. Think about it.

We're not compromising, that's how scum win late-day mislynches.

[wgeurts]

wgeurts ought to know better than to start pairing people on D1.

Actually, I like to think these kind of things out so that once there are flips I've already considered the possible options. Do I form reads off these pre-flip associatives though? No. There's nothing wrong with what I did.

[wgeurts]

Policy lynch:

Seth

Why is Seth a policy lynch?

Do you claim he is playing well?
Do you claim he is aiding the town?
Do you claim he isn't being a liability?

Even if you're not scum-reading him because of "too-scummy-to-be-scum" or whatever you cannot answer yes to the above right now.

[wgeurts]

Also I really dislike this logic of let's lynch him for being a bad town player... in a beginner's game on day 1. A policy lynch? I don't think so.

I think that players need to defend themselves. I don't see Seth doing that.

So all of my past posts intended to defend myself is not actually defense in your book?
I can't give you a scum read as I don't trust everyone else except KaladinStormblessed for the newbtowniness and RedCoyote not pushing to lynch me when he has the perfect opportunity to do so without drawing suspicion on himself. I only explained wgeurts and Simonyd as the rest of the players are parroting them except RC.
If you can't decide I am town, but can't decide I am scum either, don't push me for a lynch, I asked you a question what will you gain if I flip town, and who is my partner if I am scum? Of course you ignored this and call it nonsense.
Emotions do sway and influence posts and the players won't even notice this, we can quickly notice this in another player if I am actually scum.

Contradiction here backing-up my point stating he's making crumpets up, this time regarding his reads-list.

If he can only trust RC and KS (implying they're strong town reads) why is KS in the middle of his reads list? Smmmh.

[wgeurts]

Red Coyote, me not having drawn scum in so long was a comment for people to take into consideration of the thought I could play a great scum game.

Heh

Also saying we're just calling all your stuff crumpets which isnt the case is not a defense.

Why did you deny that you're calling my stuff crumpets, calling me crumpets means you can't understand me or you are being ignorant, this is significant enough to be a case. You are pressing on me for a lynch when you admit you can't even understand what I'm saying.

Calling your stuff crumpets means I'm saying "this is a load of utter tosh". I fully understand what you're saying, this attack is (wait for it) crumpets.

[wgeurts]

I have a hard time justifying not lynching Seth tho. I dunno, I just don't get it.

It's like people are making up reasons not to lynch him besides the evidence which people pointedly refuse to refute. Huh?

[wgeurts]

Alpaca is definitely town.

[wgeurts]

{wgeurts}
{Simoyd, AlpacaAlpaca}
{Murph, Raskolnikov}
{KaladinStormblessed}
{Hoppic, RedCoyote}
{SethYazura}

Page 21.

[wgeurts]

Of all things to post about on page 21 KS pops in with Night Kill speculation rabble.

[wgeurts]

Spoiler:

I'm here. I wanted red to answer my question before I went into things but everyone's getting impatient. Catchup time.

Red/seth looked way too easy so I tried my best to think of any other scumteams but didn't really get anywhere.
Hoppic looked potentially scum especially if red was town because of how he was completely uninvolved until red voted him and then he suddenly appeared and jumped on red in (what I think is) a shallow way, and knowing about scumslips and the like didn't feel congruent with not understanding half the people in the game. So it was looking like a red scumteam, likely with seth, or a hoppic team with kali or wguerts, and what made me second guess red scumread is that if he was town we'd probably agree with who scum are; red town makes seth look a lot better too. The problem being that hoppic having looked shaky and a bit of paranoia about kali and wgeurts potentially being partners with almost anyone had the game rather murky; even a TvT red/hoppic seemed possible, though unlikely, with {seth,kali} and {wgeurts,kali} or something with murph on the table.

Since then, hoppics been looking a lot better and I'm seeing scumhunting and some thought there, I'd say beyond what red's giving even which is funny considering we're comparing newbie to long time veteran and IC. Explaining a townread is pretty difficult as you're mostly going over why things are normal and trying quantify the absence of scum-motivated action; without going into it he's moderate-town but not absolute, so around murph level.
Kaladin hasn't really picked up but the complete nonchalance I'm seeing here is more null than anything else, having outlined his reads as basically following consensus makes his complacency plausible. I'd speculate actually that if kala was scum his laziness is from a good position, and his partner more likely than not being heavily townread combined with kala himself not being high on the lynch priority for today. I don't think encouraging him for the nth time to post more is going to do anything but as it is he doesn't seem worth wagoning at this point. Moreso than kala or wguerts actually changing recently I thought I was possibly a bit paranoid and overthinking to try to see another scumteam possible when seth and red look legitimately scummy.

I didn't think seth could get more ridiculous when I had left but he did somehow. Dedicating his time to self-partner analysis (???) and just behaving incredibly bizarrely, especially when he makes out as though he's intentionally doing all these lures and gambits and that we're all stupid for not understanding! With all that said I get the impression some of it is stylistic; in other words even though he's probably scum here I wouldn't rule him acting like this as town out. Technically don't have evidence to back that feeling up but it's a concern for me nonetheless. That said I'd be more than happy to policy lynch him and even if he's 70-30 scum-town I don't value the remaining 30 there that much if you understand me. This is my second pick to lynch, and is also my second greatest scumread even if the lynch itself would be a fraction policy encouraged.

But I actually think red's views on seth make him worse than seth himself! I can understand being 50-50 on seth but he seems to be townreading him and I don't really see how; from my perspective the best case scenario for people reading seth here is a "I have no clue" read which makes you hesitate to lynch him but is by no means a good read. I don't know where town-red would have got the evidence to back up his townread here, and if this was another scenario I'd actually consider such an unexplainable read as a cop-check or something, obviously not a possibility here on d1. But even if you do townread seth, how are you fine with him seth here; if I thought seth was town I'd be more upset with his play than I am now because it's legitimately something to blame him for rather than him being scum. Red thoughts on this are ridiculous though.

Policy lynch:

Seth

Why is Seth a policy lynch?

I may have a blind spot to Seth. I just don't see anything particularly negative there. Perhaps if someone presented a formal case against him I could be persuaded.

This is completely absurd considering seth's play; it suggests more than anything red hasn't looked at him at all. Even if seth is town, and red disagrees with both the scumread and any policylynch motivation, he should at least have a basic understanding of WHY we want those things. Disagreeing and hard defending would be significantly better especially on the policy grounds but instead he doesn't seem to even know why anyone would want either of those and that's not a perspective I can see from town.

Both seth and red are weak in their pushing, but red's actually worse in this regard. Red's stated where he thinks scum are but isn't really trying to convince anyone to vote there; his posts mostly go into the details and semantics for why people are voting him. I don't see the same kind of push-back that even seth gives a bit of. Everyone's different but in his position, with the entirety of the game against him and his townread I expect more of a response, whether it be frustration, resignation or proactive trying to convince everyone to vote correctly because they're all incredibly wrong. Even if you aren't an emotional person you should at least be pushing your reads here, if you're town you want to not only change people's reads but also to let them know why exactly wgeurts/hoppic/murph as scum; quietly defending himself isn't accomplishing all that much. Most of the detail he did give on his scumreads was when prompted to do so. His concern seems to be of technical details and improving his self image, and while he's using sensible words and logic as his medium (unlike seth) what he's actually doing reads worse to me than seth's angered responses which is at least a conceivable reaction to being wagoned.

Red/seth is probably the team even if it looks too easy, but I can also see scum-red whiteknighting town-seth as another possibility, partnered with kali or someone else. It's tempting to lynch seth because as a town player it'd be less of a loss along with his VT claim, but I see sethtown as possible whereas redtown doesn't make sense with how I see the game and would pretty much force me to throw out my reads.

This bumps Rask back up to solid-town.

[wgeurts]

Why you couldn't say shut the fuck up in four words!?? You meant in your post shut the fuck up or else you go higher in my scumreads and I will vote you, and this in a game that you are required to talk to other players.

"I'll scum-read you if you push me too loudly"

[wgeurts]

Oh nevermind, read that wrongly.

[wgeurts]

@wgeurts: why is hoppic so low in your list?

I'll get to that my friend

I'm off for now though, tomorrow morning I'll finish my catch-up and I'll post more read explanations.

[wgeurts]

It's not a case, a case has evidence and reasoning explaining why someone is more likely to be a certain alignment.

This is conspiracy, something that is technically possible but has no real evidence to support it.

[wgeurts]

Also saying it would make no difference is a stupid reason not to vote someone, it's also invalidated by the fact he could of done it a lot earlier when pressure on him eased.

[wgeurts]

Back to finish up.

Policy lynch:

Seth

Why is Seth a policy lynch?

Do you claim he is playing well?
Do you claim he is aiding the town?
Do you claim he isn't being a liability?

Even if you're not scum-reading him because of "too-scummy-to-be-scum" or whatever you cannot answer yes to the above right now.

It doesn't matter whether or not I think he's playing well. That has no bearing on his alignment.
I absolutely think he's aiding the town by being active, giving reads, and explaining why he has those reads.
By "liability" are you referring to his claim? In that sense, the argument can be made, but it's clear that no one voting him has been particularly motivated by that as a rationale for voting him.

Frankly, the more antagonism I read in regards to Seth, the more convinced I am that this is wagon is largely driven by emotion and personality. It's certainly not something I want to be a part of.

I cannot believe you can look at his posts and think, "oh yes, this is a productive member of the town" while he has so many contradictions, blatantly bad plays and what not. Also way to go straw-manning every single point I've raised on him which you have yet to address a single one of. This isn't emotion and personality and the various cases I've posted show that clearly.

[wgeurts]

He hadn't even voted one of us either, why?

He hadn't even voted one of us either, why?

Practically it's 3, but the 2nd mislynch will only leave 3 town alive, while there is still 2 scum, you're still alive at this day since you're scum, those 3 townies will parrot at you and you will make them cause another mislynch easily, this is one of the outcomes that can occur and I won't let that happen.
VOTE: wgeurts
Fortunately I'm still confident with the town.

He hadn't voted one of us either? He hadn't?

Contradiction here backing-up my point stating he's making crumpets up, this time regarding his reads-list.
If he can only trust RC and KS (implying they're strong town reads) why is KS in the middle of his reads list? Smmmh.

Post # 368, SethYazura made a list of his thoughts
Post # 442, SethYazura, pages later in the thread, of course has his thoughts changed based on the events
I am so sorry wgeurts that I don't make a read then stick to it the whole game, unlike your scumplay, that fabricates posts to the parroting town, because the wording of your post here assumes that I made a list with KaladinStorm in the middle and in the same post I said that I trust Kala, which are actually different posts in different time periods.

Your vote came like 100 posts later after I'd raised a point regarding it. Invalid.

Also there's nothing wrong with sticking to a read if you still think it's correct at all, if you look at my other reads you'll also see those have shifted at times.

[wgeurts]

Policy lynch:

Seth

Why is Seth a policy lynch?

Do you claim he is playing well?
Do you claim he is aiding the town?
Do you claim he isn't being a liability?

Even if you're not scum-reading him because of "too-scummy-to-be-scum" or whatever you cannot answer yes to the above right now.

Why you didn't answer RC's present posts and instead focus on the past 100th post? Too afraid you scum?
You posted this after RedCoyote said I am playing well, I am aiding the town, and I am not a liability.

Maybe because I haven't gotten round to reading them yet?

[wgeurts]

We have cornered wgeurts and now he is focusing on our past hundred posts.

Wot?
What's happened the last few pages?

[wgeurts]

I have a hard time justifying not lynching Seth tho. I dunno, I just don't get it.

It's like people are making up reasons not to lynch him besides the evidence which people pointedly refuse to refute. Huh?

You think every townie would parrot after your posts? You think you are that good at playing scum? You think you are the best in forum mafia?

I don't think every town player will parrot what I say, to get a lynch you only need a majority. No, I don't think I'm good as scum; I haven't drawn it in a few years and have no way to see whether I am. Also absolutely not on the latter, I make mistakes and am far from the best, but I'm trying to learn and every game improves my play just a bit.

For what it's worth my personal switching from red to seth here is almost entirely because upon review I can actually see seth/hoppic as a possibility here.

Rask, put yourself in the mind of Hoppic and this possibility would be zero, think what will Hoppic do if he's scum Rask, scum are not idiots, they will bus their teammates rather than defend them if there are already ropes tied on their necks.[/quote]
Hoppic is ready to bus you if he were scum, he's got a scum-read on you since forever.

[wgeurts]

Or you're being ignorant, I presented a point that you don't understand me, then you clarified that you fully understand what I'm saying, so we're okay now right? But my attack is also crumpets when it made you clarify you understand what I'm saying. And wait I'm not done yet with you, I presented another point that you're ignorant, and you ignored this point, proving it that you are actually ignorant, you either touch parts of my posts and call it crumpets, or you don't touch my posts at all, but say it's crumpets and no reason given why it's crumpets. I know you are a thinking person and I acknowledge that because you made almost all of the town parrot you with your scumplay, a good feat everyone will say, what I'm trying to say is that because you think, you can't say no to the above, because that is the same as declaring on everyone in this thread you're an idiot, cornering you further.

You do realise this isn't a defence? Anyone can spin some story explaining their actions, has nothing to do with how valid and truthful it is though. I've seen your posts, and I've walled on

why

I think they are nonsense. I don't just call stuff nonsense as you make out, I back it up with reasons and evidence. Also calling someone ignorant isn't the golden-rule of getting town to think "oh, he couldn't ever be scum now". It's an attack on me, there's no logic or whatever involved and is something I literally cannot refute. It's a silly argument, one that should be shunned and ignored. Scum like using it a lot though.

My vote 100 posts later represents my will to win. Invalid.
We are talking about each other and not the rest of the town. Invalid.

Where did this sudden "will to win" come from? Why wasn't it there like 80% of the game?

You already read them before because it's in the past, either ignorant or blind. Invalid.

Which posts exactly are you talking about, quote them?
I was busy for a while and wasn't reading the game.

[wgeurts]

Three words:
Read my wall.

Where I literally quoted and explained every one of the posts I said was nonsense. I'm sorry but I haven't read the last 100 or so posts, it may be in the past but what does that have to do with this?

[wgeurts]

Hoppic, I did kind say to wait until Id posted the rest of my catch-up. It turned out I had a wedding yesterday and now I've only got mobile access.

Also I like the sound of my trademark scum game being "brainwashing". Seth, if you do flip town I'm sorry. I genuinely think you are scum and all my pushes were honest.

[wgeurts]

I was completely wrong on Seth it seems, I'm going to reread the entire game and use the information gained now. I do believe this implies that RedCoyote is town though.

[wgeurts]

Murph's early defense of Seth is a really good interaction pointing at him being town at the start of the game.

[wgeurts]

Rask is likely town.

[wgeurts]

Murph is definitely town, as is RC.
Along with me and Rask that limits the pool to {Alpaca, KS, Hoppic}
Of which U currently think Alpaca us town.
I'm most willing to lynch Hoppic right now though.

[wgeurts]

17 pages to go.
Then I'll start walling again.

[wgeurts]

U is I in post 632 by the way

[wgeurts]

Yeah, Hoppic is definitely scum.
And I'd be willing to bet cash that KS also is.
VOTE: Hoppic
Await walls when I'm home, I've reread the entire game and I suggest everyone else does as well.

[wgeurts]

wgeurts' rush to call myself and Murph town (especially Murph, which seems rather random given how hard he was pushing Seth, their early interactions notwithstanding) after zero input from us starting today gives me very bad vibes. There's something very calculated about posts 629 - 635. Like, I can totally picture wgeurts in a scum tread overnight saying something like, "Okay, I'm going to come out and say, 'Wow, I was really wrong on Seth, let me reread...' and then pivot toward Hoppic". I mean, wgeurts just says he reread the entire game. Granted, Seth flipped town, but what else caused him to do an about face? I'd like to have seen him point to rationale for wanting to start a Hoppic wagon off the bat.

I do really want to hear from KS. Ras is still my top town read, but Alpaca will probably have to fill Sim's slot. I'm not quite as confident on Alpaca as I was on Sim, but I still have a solid townread on him.

I literally reread the entire thread hunting for associative tells and reforming reads. And you'll be able to fault my reasons once I have PC access and can write my posts regarding everyone. Seth's death provides information, for instance you and Rask especially come out a lot more town (Rask especially so). Sim's death has less information, however also nudges a few people closer to town. The way hoppic went about Seth is pretty bad, as I'll later point out. KS also went about it rather awfully. Through PoE and general analysis I believe those two to be scum. If you think I'm faking this you can wait until I post all my reasons, then you can attempt to see whether I'm faking any logic or using weak reasoning. I dare say you won't be able to.

[wgeurts]

Also quoting over half the player-list and saying there's likely one scum in there is a bit silly, as that's basic probability theory which I can show you if you insist. Also I literally stated I think both scum are on separate wagons as I stated I think KS and Hoppic are scum, Hoppic is the worst of the two as I'll explain and the one I'm more confident in seeing flip read. By what logic is Murph|Town+RC|Town=KS|Prob-Scum?

Anyway here's my reads list which I'll elaborate later:
{wgeurts}
{Rask, Murph}
{Alpaca, RC}
{KS, Hoppic}

[wgeurts]

If I'm wrong on someone it's most likely KS with RC, though I seriously doubt that's the case.

[wgeurts]

Also I started scum-reading Hoppic yesterday, don't you dare accuse me of it being sudden as that's blatantly false.

[wgeurts]

I need to cut down on using "also".

[wgeurts]

@Varsoon, could you replace/remove this head of Gee Willikers?

I'm really sorry about this, I've got too much crap going on right now and it's stripped mafia of its joy. I usually play these games as an exciting challenge, enjoying them. However due to some IRL stuff they've become more of a burden. I've barely done anything here for a while, and this lack of contribution and engagement isn't how I want to play games. It was great having played with you all, some of you hold true potential and I hope to see you grow. Perhaps we shall face each other in the future once I've got some stuff resolved.

Once again, my apologies for this all.

[Jackal711]

@Mod, could you please replace me

I'm really sorry about this, I've got too much crap going on right now and it's stripped mafia of its joy. I usually play these games as an exciting challenge, enjoying them. However due to some IRL stuff they've become more of a burden. I've barely done anything here for a while, and this lack of contribution and engagement isn't how I want to play games. It was great having played with you all, some of you hold true potential and I hope to see you grow. Perhaps we shall face each other in the future once I've got some stuff resolved.

Once again, my apologies for this all.


I copied this from another game I'm replacing out of and altered it somewhat, forgot to change the enquiry.

Request noted. -Mod

[wgeurts]

Good game all!