Newbie 1707 - Game Over

[RedCoyote]

I agree. Look, maybe I'm being to abrupt than you may be used to, Sim, and for that I do apologize. Not to butter you up, but I saw two very clear town players fairly early on in this game, yourself and Ras, and I thought it would be in the town's best interest for me to act on those hunches. I'm not infallible; one or both of you may be scum, but I am confident enough to reach out to both of you early on and attempt to, at the very least, steer the D1 lynch away from the three of us to one of the other players. I do not have the same confidence in any of the other reads in this game so far. That may change yet, but I'm willing to go forward with these early, strong notions I have thus far.

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: more* abrupt

[Simoyd]

I think that considering an arrangment of players where I'm in a townbloc with you is okay. But I consider many different arrangments of the players and am constantly weighing them between each-other based on reads. I'm re-reading ur old posts now to see if I have any issues with u (I'm on page 7). I forget if I asked, but maybe it's changed since someone asked you: what is your full insight on the seth situation?

[RedCoyote]

The simple answer is I do not feel as threatened by Seth as I do by Hoppic, wgeurts and Kal. If, on page 14, you asked me where the scum was. I'd say it's in those three players.

[Simoyd]

another arrangement I'm considering is you and rasko scum. He jumped on you poorly as if he wasn't a good busser, then switched and you guys are kinda friendly now.

[Simoyd]

or you and seth

[RedCoyote]

That's your prerogative. I do not know either of these players, fyi.

[Simoyd]

Sim may not know any better than to this, but you ought to know better than this.

What do you mean by this? If we lynch two town then we're in lylo, is that it?

[Simoyd]

I feel like you're holding onto your opinion and tunnelling instead of reconsidering based on peoples arguments. I feel like you're doing in disproportionately more than others.

[RedCoyote]

wgeurts has been on this website longer than you and ought to know better than to make such early assumptions. You may not be as aware of this.

What argument do you mean for me to reconsider, Sim?

[Simoyd]

Frankly I need a lot more data on Seth, otherwise I don't see any reason we shouldn't kill him today. The way it stands right now, he is either scum, or a complete VI (to the point of breaking the rules because he's not playing to win). I could see him waiting a couple days more, but he would need to do some serious contributions with no scrum tells whatsoever next week for me to even consider leaving him alive.

If he's town, then he should be capable of sitting down by himself and thinking through the possible reactions to his performance. It is very obvious that the output data is 100% WIFOM. I don't see why town would be too lazy to think through this. So he needs to stop at some point and clear up the doubt against him by showing no scum tells after a specific reveal point. I can respect stirring up the pot at the start of the game, but wasting the full day and consuming the day 1 lynch just for some WIFOM is crap. Who knows, maybe he's got a PR and that is his big reveal point? Again exposing your PR for some WIFOM is crap. I think we're well past the point of stirring now.

I think that both scum and town are capable of thinking through this, and pending significant contributions from seth town should be on seth. scum will want to be like town, so they will go on two. but we know that so they wont. What I'm saying is the scum reaction to this crap is WIFOM.

What really bugs me is he's getting a free pass on any scum reads. Oh he's doing that on purpose, then people's final disposition is more towny towards him. Again scum knows this blah blah WIFOM. so again this doesn't help town at all!!!

He's still got an out, and I intend to use the full day to stir the pot and find scum. I'm leaving my vote on seth. If he flips town then it's his fault, not mine.

@seth: just end it or die. It's that simple. There is no value here for town.

[Simoyd]

wgeurts has been on this website longer than you and ought to know better than to mak

I don't want to manipulate you. and I don't want you to sheep me. It's an observation and I feel you've gone past the point where I can target specific things that I think are incorrect or inconsistent. I think I've been pretty clear on things that I disagree about with you, and I think you've tried to be clear about your perspective as well. I think that other people should just review your stuff with tunnelling in mind and come up with their own opinion and contribute it.

[Simoyd]

that quote didn't come through fully. I was referring to the entity of post 334

[Simoyd]

entirety*

[Hoppic]

So I have some concerns about you, hoppic:

Weak Sauce

Alpacalpaca's only made one post so far, so it's hard to get a read just from that but it seemed strange to me that the post would be all about assessment and have no questions. Also, idk. It's easier to read people when you know what they're like a bit.

Why do you think it is wierd that alpaca has no questions? It seems that you only have two posts so far with questions about other people (125 and 232). 124 and 306 are defensive clarification questions, so not the same thing. 231 appears to be rhetorical as there was no follow up? I'm not trying to say you should ask more questions. I'm wondering what makes you think Alpaca's post is wierd?

What I said. At the time he only had one post and it didn't have any questions, it was just assessment, and it was something i noticed. Since then, he's posted more, and he seems less strange. I didn't mean actual questions in a grammatical sense, but rather a questionning stance. It wasn't a big deal, but I felt that it would help town to say something rather than nothing so that people could get a sense of where I'm coming from.

Lurking / Not taking a stance / Feeling out the crowd

In posts 104, 107, 108, 109 - you really seem to be goin back and forth on your opinions. 109 explained this as a typo, but the wording in 107 "actually" demonstrates that the view posted here is different than 104. This series of posts gives me bad vibes.

Well sure. I didn't have any strong reads at the beginning. I'm not sure why you would see that as a problem.

Additionally:

@Hoppic: Raskolnikov has posted a lot. Does he not stand out a bit too? What do you think?

I can't really understand what she (?) is saying. A few players in this game are like that for me: raskolnokiv, you a bit and Murphy. Maybe others. I can understand individual words and sentences but overall I don't get it.

I think murph and I were very clear. It really seems like you were lurking and scared to take a stance at this point. What is the town motivation here to not understand when asked to provide an opinion? I'd say it could be newbishness but later (227) you demonstrate that you can make a pretty solid deep read, so I'm a bit curious about this inconsistentcy. More evidence of lurking and fear of taking a stance is shown here:

I haven't gone back and reread the game yet so I haven't quoted particular parts.

that's post number 229! I feel like that's pretty far in. I don't think it's valuable for town to be posting opinons and analysis without having read up at that point. Sounds like it's really just more fear to take a stance, and trying to feel out what opinion will draw the least attention. How do you think this helps town?

This mostly is clear, but some things are hard to understand, such as, murphy definitely thinking and being a tiny bit scary...

Lets face it. The murph trane was crap at the start, and was still crap at the time your post here. This seems like parroting to me. Basically your analysis was that you agreed with a shitty trane and then you posed a rhetorical question (which I also mentioned above). The focus here wasn't that you didn't understand what raskolnikov said, but more that you demonstrated you didn't value understanding what raskolnikov said. Your response to parrot his opionions and post the rhetorical question still doesn't really take any kind of stance. What is your read on Rasko?

I don't know what you're talking about here in relation to trains? I wasn't on any train at the beginning. You asked me directly what I thought about RAskolnicov and i said I didn't understand what they were saying and then when you and Murphy objected to that I tried to be more specific. I wasn't reading Raskolnikov as scum, and I didn't vote for them.

What do you think about what I said in post 227? Is it a scum slip?

Although I agree with your read, this again seems like you're feeling out the crowd and seeking validation before really jumping on it. I don't think I'm an authority in this game, and if you have a problem with something RC said, then why do I need to agree with you? Is there a reason other than more pressure on RC? There was no question from you in 227. Why didn't you just clearly outline the issue up front to him to potentially get his response instead?

I wasn't seeking validation before jumping in. My vote is on redcoyote, but I wasn't to draw people's attention to that comment because it seemed like a scum slip to me. Either other people think so too and we can vote for him, or there's an explanation that I am missing.

One last thing: In post 231 you analyse the first part of Rasko's post 72. Then you have some revelation in post 233 about it. What made you chose this part (not the second half of 72) to analyze? How is this valuable to town?

I just picked a post at random so I could show you what I meant by not understanding. It wasn't just that post - it was all through the thread so far. Probably - I can't remember what was in the second part of the post - it was more straight forward, or maybe I felt that the first part was enough to show what I meant.

The seth trane

My first post wasn't forced, it's not an attempt on humor either, I made it sound strange on purpose.
If we don't lynch Murph now, we are just going to lynch him later because of how dangerous he sounds.
How about we lynch him now and start from there.
VOTE: MurphVOTE:
UNVOTE: wgeurts

What do you mean about Murphy sounding dangerous? Dangerous how?

You jump on the seth trane, but only after rasko, murph, alpaca, and yogurts. So it's a pretty safe bet this won't draw attention at this point right? You also agree with his RVS seeming forced in post 103. I don't think your RVS vote is any more or less forced, as you provided two distinct reasons for your RVS vote. What exactly do you think is forced in his post? What words or topics sound forced? What really bothers me is:

What RVS vote? I was just asking Seth what he meant because I didn't know what he meant about Murphy sounding dangerous.

From what I've observed so far only the ppl who has made the analysis of scum so far are town.

Who do you mean and why do you think they're town?
Does it bother you that a lot of people see you as scummy?

The first question is ambiguous. I'm getting vibes here that you're asking how to be a better town. Only scum is concerned with pretending to be town. The second question though is way off. If the answer is yes, then what? If the answer is no, then what? How does this help town? Why did you ask this? It sounds like "does it bother you that you're town, your strategy is crap, and you will be lynched instead of me?"

i just wanted more explanation of why people giving analysis of scum means they're town, and also I wasn't sure who he meant because everyone's given analysis of some kind already. The second question was about him deliberately seeming scummy, which is anti-town, and I was wondering why he was okay doing that.

Your very next post after 127 is 227. During this time the seth trane derailed and exploded into the "slayer's gambit" junk. And your first post is to step away from seth in fear, which continues in post 228 (Note that I'm not sure I would agree with what seth says in 244. I think the whole thing is WIFOM. Scum could do either; be scared, or wagon on). But when I ask about it you gave me this:

Nothing Seth has said has made any sense to me and he seems really anti-town. I think he's probably scum, but redcoyote is a stronger read right now.
No, the slayer gambit explanation makes no sense. If you were doing that, why would you say so? Everyone's voting this early in the game, and the votes are not too serious so it doesn't make sense for timing either.

So if you don't believe the slayer gambit, then how do you explain seth being less of a read than RC? Why would a townie act like scum, and say he's doing the slayer's gambit and not be doing the slayer's gambit? How is that a worse read than what you have on RC?

Seth seems illogical and scummy, definitely. I'm okay to vote for him, but I've had experiences in the past of voting for people because they seem illogical and anti-town, and they flip town so I'm not certain. But yeah, seth and redcoyote are my top scumreads atm.

[Hoppic]

Just wondering why would you vote someone without intent to lynch, I mean you have said that you think that he is the most scummy out of everyone and than you voted him because he doesn't have a vote yet but you don't have any intent to lynch him? Shouldn't voting for people be reserved for actually wanting to lynch them. Like its open to change the vote later but why vote without intent.

This strikes me as a town mindset. I guess because I think I would wonder the same thing as town.

So did you wonder the same thing? Or not?

[Hoppic]

---

This is awkward phrasing. He would think the same thing as town, if he was town... rather than that he did think the same.

Seems like a scum slip to me.

In what universe is this a scum slip? I was explaining why I considered that post to be town sounding. Had I not included that comment, I suspect you would've attacked me for being "too vague" and "not backing up my reasons", yeah?

Easy way to slip in a reactionary, WIFOM vote.

I don't like the way he cut out his own original words when he quoted me. I think a townie would be more likely to keep all the words in and do his best to explain them. Later he gave an explanation of why he used the phrasing, I THINK I WOULD wonder the same thing as town. But here, in his first attempt, he doesn't explain it at all.

[Hoppic]

wgeurts has been on this website longer than you and ought to know better than to make such early assumptions. You may not be as aware of this.

You've made some quite early assumptions about who you think is town. How are your assumptions different?

[Simoyd]

sorry, by trane I mean wagon. my brain is funky.

[wgeurts]

Going to post some today, stay tuned.

[wgeurts]

Also Red Coyote I literally haven't drawn scum in over 1-2 years.

[Jackal711]

VOTE COUNT 1.5

KaladinStormblessed (0) -
Simoyd (0) -
AlpacaAlpaca (0) -
SethYazura (3) - Simoyd, wgeurts, AlpacaAlpaca
Murph (0) -
Hoppic (1) - RedCoyote
Raskolnikov (0) -
wgeurts (0) -
RedCoyote (3) - Hoppic, Murph, KaladinStormblessed

Not Voting: SethYazura, Raskolnikov

Activity Notes: Raskolnikov and Murph are V/LA until Monday

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is Tuesday May 31st at 7:30 pm PDT which is in (expired on 2016-05-31 19:30:00)

[SethYazura]

@seth: just end it or die. It's that simple. There is no value here for town.

What do you mean by end it? Be more specific.

If he's town, then he should be capable of sitting down by himself and thinking through the possible reactions to his performance.

Yet a scum would never want negative reactions to their performance, a scum will try to appear as town as much as possible and won't make unorthodox plays, forum mafia games can last months and no one wants to waste the chance of being given a scum role. Try to put yourself in the scum's shoes and you will realize that they will never want to get into trouble and into the same situation as am I.

He's still got an out, and I intend to use the full day to stir the pot and find scum. I'm leaving my vote on seth.

For someone whose intention is to stir the pot and find scum, you are contradicting yourself, how can the desperate attempt of leaving your vote on me on hopes that it will flip scum be "stirring the pot and finding scum"? Don't make any attempt to lynch someone based on luck and feelings, only attempt it when you have solid evidence.

What really bugs me is he's getting a free pass on any scum reads. Oh he's doing that on purpose,

You're talking in riddles, I can't make a correct interpretation on this, explain it in simpler detail and I can correct you on this reason why you're voting me.

I'm leaving my vote on seth. If he flips town then it's his fault, not mine

Frankly I need a lot more data on Seth

You're voting me up yet you admit you have vague information, what's this? This is unreasonable.

Scum will want to be like town, so they will go on two. but we know that so they wont.

You brought up the idea of how the scum acts, coincidentally what will I talk about next is related to this.
Try to ask yourself this questions, let's assume I am scum here,
If I am scum, and this setup has two scums, then how will my scum partner react to what I'm doing and how the players react to me? What he will do based on my situation? My scum partner will be so shocked and confused to find out I am attracting this much attention before even Night 1 starts to make our moves.
If I am scum, then who is my scum partner? Who comes to mind?

It can't be KaladinStormblessed

-

The forum's alive again! Don't got much except tentative suspicion at seth, for strangeness his post and that it's a second vote while you guys seem to be the kind that random notes at first to gather info.

It's not as random cause it's the second vote on a person, with no real reason, but follow up votes are more suspicious than the first vote. Also you have a reason, joking revenge vote, he doesn't. I don't like to bounce my vote around so I wait to vote. Yes, I have done mafia before, a few games on gamefaqs, unsure if I'll be able to find links. Almost didn't post it for fear it'd be suspicious but didn't want to be silent.

Honestly it doesn't seem that suspicious but is the only thing going on, and only meant to note that it different than others and a thing I'm noting in my mental list of things about this game, and as i said didn't want to be silent. If it is a poke at an acquaintance, a noobs game with newcomers to the forum and or game isn't the best place for that.

His first three posts interacts with me, his first three posts say that he's suspicious towards me, go link me to a finished game whereas the scum made his first posts about his scum partner being suspicious because of what he done, the scum's natural instinct is to defend his scum partner, yet he attacked me and to add more nonsense to it, it's on the first posts, on the RVS, this is exceptionally unusual, finding a finished game like that is like finding the Holy Grail.

It can't be Simoyd

- Trying to find the holy grail again of a finished game, a scum will never say he is voting his scum partner up because he is pressuring him for information, this is advanced play, and our game consists of newbies..

It can't be AlpacaAlpaca

- Same with Simonyd, he pressured me for information first, then voted me up because I didn't give a sufficient explanation, why would Alpaca do this on the first day if he is my scum partner.

It can't be Murph

- One of my posts said that Murph is dangerous and we should lynch him and start from there, why would I say this on the first day? Murph is not close to being lynched yet, the timing is completely wrong.

It can't be Hoppic

- His posts lack the shock and confused factor from his scum partner being strange with his posts and attracting mass attention, if he is scum and I am his scum partner, then he will think "

what the fuck is wrong with my partner he is not even trying

", however, he doesn't feel disturbed in any way in his posts, no distress at all, as if there's nothing abnormally wrong going on. A scum would naturally act as towny and keep low.

It can't be Raskolnikov

- Finding the Holy Grail again, a scum would never tell you what's the scum partner of his scum partner, this is another rarely known advanced play, more so in a newbie game.

It can't be wgeurts

- A normal person will never feel proud and victorious from bussing his partner on Day 1, specifically this post

Why don't I get the feeling you're fighting to stop a mislynch here? You sound so dry.

It can't be RedCoyote

- A scum will never try to form a bloc and change the wagon, the scum knows that he will attract unwanted suspicion if he does this, particularly an experienced player since they don't want to be shamed by newbies.

[AlpacaAlpaca]

Ok so what you've posted about possible scum buddies makes sense but for a few of them like Simoyd/me, Hoppic, and Rask you say that they can't be your buddies because doing what they are doing is too advanced for them but I mean it seems like a basic strategy to me. If I was playing a game as scum and my partner started having some votes put on them D1 I wouldn't really worry and would probably join the wagon until it dies down especially if it was early D1. It seems like a basic first layer psychology that you won't be viewed as scum if you vote the person that everyone thinks is scum. And you should most certainly never flounder and start making weird posts if your partner is getting attacked. I'm currently playing my first 2 games on this site but this seems pretty standard. Even you trying to push on Murph could be seen as you trying to distance yourself from Murph if you two were partners which also seems like a viable strategy. Of course this could also be viewed from a town point of view as well as seemingly the majority of things said but I am still feeling scum.

[wgeurts]

I for one would happily bus my partner to pulp.