Newbie 1765 | URW | Endgame

[toblerone187]

Hey everyone.... be gentle with me

[toblerone187]

Voting for yourself is scummy imho.

Saying silly things are scummy is scummy

VOTE: Superhans

[toblerone187]

I could vote for myself

[toblerone187]

Now I don't know if you are being serious or not. Dom was clearly joking as was Superhans, as was I.... do you have no sense of humour? Or is your sense of humour very dry?

[toblerone187]

Mafia don't know if there is a cop in the setup or not.

Am I correct though that if there is a mafia roleblocker they know there may be a cop (and a doc)?

[toblerone187]

Just clarifying in case what he meant to say was slightly off from what he said

No I said what I meant to say

[toblerone187]

UNVOTE: Superhans

Joke vote

[toblerone187]

@Toblerone, you've talked a bit without saying anything. Give your thoughts/reads? I understand you're new but share them anyway.

Yeah to be honest I am not sure who is scummy and who isn't. Most of my thoughts have either been already said by others or countered by others or both

One thing I picked up on was Connor answering questions that were not directed at him. I think Nacho did the same at one point but that was in answer to a genral question. Why did Connor do it? To support LQ? He then did it AGAIN even after Superhans had told him he wnted to hear from LQ

The whole LQ/cop thing seems to me either to be an innocent attempt to get conversation going, OR it could be an attempt to make it look like her is. And all the "not traditional" stuff - whilst I have no idea what he means - I don't like it. It could be setting things up for an argument he will use later.

Dominator has been very quiet, but so have I so that is not an indication of anything in my eyes

Rautherdir seemed very keen to hunt lurkers. I don't know if I count as a lurker but are you implying that lurkers are scum?

[toblerone187]

VOTE: Lovesick

Lovesick, I'll be super happy to unvote on the condition that you read through all the comments posted so far tell us your opinions on scum/town reads. Cheers

I know it has been mentioned before but this seems odd to me. If you are trying to put pressure this would not do it IMO. Vote but say you will remove the vote if she does a certain thing. Not a great negotiating position!

Talking of Lovesick, she seemed to get very defensive about her inactivity. but my gut reaction is town. She seems to be new here like me so I get the inactivity

(For the record I replaced into a game here about 6 years ago but have not played since - I sem to recall I died pretty soon in that game)

[toblerone187]

I gave two examples from the same game, you should read them.

To be honest I have enough on my plate reading this game and trying to analyse it and learn as I go along. I don't have time to read other games - or have i misunderstood you?

[toblerone187]

I am not implying that Lurkers are scum. It's just that more information is good for town. Lurking is not helpful to town, but isn't really indicative of being scum.

Ok I get that - lurking does not help town. I am not sure though if I count as a lurker. I am reading through, trying to learn and understand and commenting as and where I can. A lot of time I think things about a post and hen someone else comes in with the same thoughts and I don;t want to just repeat what other shave said - I think that in itself can be scummy and could be interpreted as an allegiance. I want to avoid that

[toblerone187]

Although, while we're looking at lurkers, why are we letting toblerone slip under the radar?

@toblerone187, what are your thoughts on the game right now. Scum/town reads?

pedit: Hmm, that unvote is interesting. Not sure I agree that's a good reason to unvote.

Are you referring to MY unvote?
If so I think it is a very good reason to unvote. It was clearly a joke vote and I had forgotten it was still there until the votecount was posted. I did not want a joke vote to remain

[toblerone187]

can we brainstorm the possibility of Nachomamma, an IC, being mafia. Is this likely, anyone getting any Town reads off of him.

I was thinking he seems to be leading the game but I am not sure if that is his job as IC

[toblerone187]

What does "pedit" mean?

[toblerone187]

Also Connor, by logical i mean with evidence from night phases which we can use to deduce and conclude things with ease other than make assumptions purely made on the first few posts in Day 1. Normally (At least where i played) Day 1 is a warm up, we get cozy and slowly introduce our playstyles to eachother hence my not so contribution to the actual objective. As also as a norm, I never do reads day 1 because it's too early to judge, too early to analyse, deduce, conclude and speak so confidently about my own thoughts when it comes to other players however I do understand why that may not be the case here because of the length of the days which personally i think is ridiculous but also logical in its own ways

Ok sorry Lovesick is not such a newbie as I had thought

[toblerone187]

What does "pedit" mean?

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Preview_Edit

Thanks

[toblerone187]

@Toblerone, if you had to kill someone right now who would it be.

Given the level of content you have posted and now suddenly this question, I would kill you

[toblerone187]

I'll be more active when the weekend ends, why do you feel me asking you that question makes me scummy?

Your first post with attempt at moving the game on and you ask me that rather than making any comment or observation on everything that has been said in the game

[toblerone187]

Is it just me, or does anyone else struggle to understand what LicketyQuickety is actually saying? You're really confusing me, just be more specific with your comments.

I am glad it is not just me.... I am really struggling to follow some of this and I was feeling a bit thick!

[toblerone187]

I have to be honest, you guys (and gal) are losing me with all these arguments and hypothesis

What is interesting to me is that at least 3 people asked for my views, but when I gave them, no-one was interested in them - maybe because they were not analytical enough?

[toblerone187]

Then how did you know how to Link the posts with:

CODE: SELECT ALL



?de: Select all?

Well it is my first game too but I can read! When you post a reply there are instructions above

Not defending Rautherdir - just pointing out it is pretty obvious. If you can

bold

and

underline

you #334

(I hope I have got that right or I am gonna look like a bit of a dick!)

[toblerone187]

I meant to say "..you

can

(post tag)"

[toblerone187]

Because there's a button that says post on it. I assumed it would allow me to link to posts. I tried it and used the preview button and found out that's how it worked.

My point exactly

[toblerone187]

Story sounds great, but I actually don't care to read it, because I can't see how it can be that relevant to this game. Although Mafia is a complex game, the fundamental idea of the game is very simple, and honestly what is the point of that story?

I'm sure you're a creative genius, but honestly when you mention "Subliminal messaging" I couldn't help but snort with laughter. The only Subliminal messages you are sending to me with this post is that you think we're too stupid to understand your reads, which is why you couldn't possibly even consider explaining them.

I am glad I am not the only one who thought this. My thoughts were "what a load of pretentious shit". Surely being so obtuse and playing in such a different way does not benefit town in any way - it just confuses matters, makes reads harder and makes it easier for scum to hide in amongst the lengthy, unnecessary self-serving posts that we all have to wade through. Or should we perhaps not even bother reading them as you are clearly so intellectually superior to us and could never possibly be on your level?

[toblerone187]

It's because this was all of his reads. What he said was basically just a rehash of what other people had already said. This could be because he's new, or because he's scum that's way too careful.

I also posted about Lovesick in a later post. As I said previously, every time I think something about a player or a post it seems that pretty soon after someone else has already echoed my thoughts in the thread. So I can either (a) post nothing and not contribute or (b) post my thoughts even if this means repeating what other people have already said. However, this is not "rehashing" as you put it - just because my views are the same as others does not mean I am copying them. There can only be a certain few viewpoints on people and posts and with 9 players there are bound to be people who have the same viewpoint

[toblerone187]

Just putting together a post with my thoughts and reads on everyone

[toblerone187]

Please re-post any of your views, or suggest any new scum/town reads that you may have.

Anyway, here are my thoughts and most are pure gut feelings. You are obviously all experience Mafia players which I am not but I will do my best:

TheDominator37

- a total of 4 posts since the start of the game! Just seems to be doing enough to not get prodded. The frustrating thing is that it

has

been online but has totally ignored the game. Either a lazy irresponsible town or a very shy scum

LicketyQuickety

- frankly I simply cannot understand half of what he is saying. His posts are confusing and full of game theory and Self-aggrandisement. IMO this does not help town at all. And after all the "non-traditional methods" crap it turns out he just uses gut reactions! Well welcome to the club - I'm a noob and that is what I do! No real read because I find reading his posts boring and confusing but gut reaction is that he is trying to bury town under a moutain of "paperwork" therefore scum. I don;t think he is helping town hunt scum.

Nachomamma8

- my gut reaction here is town. He seems to be questioning people in a sensible manner and trying to get clarification from them on things. Ok I am inexperienced but that seems to me to be the way to go about things.

ConnorJC

- this is one that I have a strong scum feel for. Mainly gut feel but there were a couple of things such as when LQ said he was agreeing with him a lot and he quickly defended himself. Also I keep going back to him answering questions on behalf of others

Rautherdir

- no strong read. One thing I liked was that when he voted LQ and said he would come back with a variety of reasons. And he did - he had clearly analysed LQ's posts

Lovesick

- still leaning town but would like to see more scumhunting and less fluff

FancyPants

- definitely leaning scum. So little content posted (I know he said he would not be very active at the weekend but still very little on Friday). Of all the possible questions he could ask and all the content he could comment on, he just wanted to know who I would kill and why Connor thought Dom was scum!

Superhans

- no real suspicions here. Generally town feel

[toblerone187]

@Toblerone
What do you think about ConnorJC voting for Nacho and then unvoting before Nacho even had a chance to respond?
Is this town/scum/noob play?

406

To me it seems like a scummy play. Almost like

pretending

that he is looking for a reaction but hardly giving it any time. Little more than 12 hours during which I do not believe Nacho came in the thread. Hard for someone to react if they do not read the thread!

[toblerone187]

Who would you like to speak up right now and about what?

Obviously Fancypants and Dominator but I guess everyone feels the same.

LQ I would like to hear more sense from and Connor I would like to know what he thinks of what I think of him

[toblerone187]

Lovesick is Town for the same reason Rautherdir is not.

See I don't find this sort of comment very helpful. I would like to know more about your reasoning. This is day 1 so it is not like you may be privy to info that other people are not (unless of course you are scum) so why not help town more by explaining your reasoning behind suspecting people. That would help town more.

If you have explained it elsewhere I apologise but frankly it is very hard to follow much of what you say

My view is that this is a team game - not a theatre for you to show off your supposed intellectual and creative superiority

[toblerone187]

You're very noncommittal, almost like you're a scum trying to blend in. I don't like the part of the game where you jump on every lurker bandwagon one after another. I like you voting LQ, but I don't like the reasons you ended up providing for it.

You mentioned this before in relation to Rautherdir. What did you not like about his reasons?

[toblerone187]

That's more dependent on context. Also, I'm not looking for "plays", or what players do intentionally. I think scum players instinctively (aka an unintentional pattern) help their buddies in the period following RVS more than other players.

This is in relation to Connor asking who has the best reads. I don't know how you would say my reads are best. They are inexperienced and mostly gut feelings. People have already said they disagree with them. Perhaps I have the best or most complete list of reads but surely not the best reads? Unless of course you agree with them all. Do you?

[toblerone187]

Lets see what happens when I do this:

ConnorJC

- this is one that I have a strong scum feel for. Mainly gut feel but

there were a couple of things such as when LQ said he was agreeing with him a lot and he quickly defended himself.

Also I keep going back to him answering questions on behalf of others

LicketyQuickety

- frankly I simply cannot understand half of what he is saying. His posts are confusing and full of game theory and Self-aggrandisement. IMO this does not help town at all. And after all the "non-traditional methods" crap it turns out he just uses gut reactions! Well welcome to the club - I'm a noob and that is what I do! No real read because I find reading his posts boring and confusing but gut reaction is that he is trying to bury town under a moutain of "paperwork" therefore scum. I don;t think he is helping town hunt scum.

Just trying to point out that I have generated a lot of content this game.

Sorry again I am not understanding what you are saying/doing/asking - please explain. Is there a question here?

[toblerone187]

Maybe it's a newbie thing, but I really don't like these parts with players asking for reads on themself, as I feel that's a concern mainly for scum.

I disagree. I am quite keen to know how others are reading me. And I am also intereted to see who wants to know how others are reading them.

[toblerone187]

My Town read on Toblerone hasn’t changed, although I disagree with lots of his reads in post 432.
I agree with Toblerone’s read on TheDominator, I think everyone agree Dom is scummy so this isn’t original in any way.
I agree with Toblerone that LicketyQuickety is very difficult to play with, but I like LicketyQuickety’s display of logic in post 447.

As my first action, the cop is

going

to investigate Nachomamma8 and you are going to Town read me for saying such.

So you're saying you would want a cop to come out day 2 and tell the mafia who they are?
Doesn't seem like town play to me

VOTE: LicketyQuickety

WHich reads do you specifically disagree with and why? Thanks
He says "So you're saying" and follows that up with an assumption on the motive of my play.

He is coming on strong here because there is an incredible amount of intent behind him saying this.

He is basically saying "I just caught you trying to out the Cop!" but he says it in a way that shows how he got to that conclusion in an attempt to influence others to agree with his point.
He then makes a comment "Doesn't seem like a town play to me." This language used here is downplayed showing he is so secure in his statement that he doesn't feel the need to butter it up and that the statement speaks for itself.
Then he votes me thinking there is no more explanation needed.
[...]

^ Like this very articulate explanation, if you (LQ) could keep up explanations that are this simple I would be much more inclined to trust you.

I agree with you that Rautherdir’s reasoning was patchy, but then so was LicketyQuickety’s reasoning for voting Rautherdir.
I’m finding it difficult to read Nacho because of how confident he is, and also being IC he is taking such a leading role that there aren’t really any Scum reads, yet. I find the idea that Nacho may be Scum very very unsettling as being such an experienced player I’d imagine it would be very difficult to realise it.
Need more content from FancyPants.
Getting a slight town read from Lovesick but agree with Toblerone that we need more stuff less fluff from her.

[toblerone187]

My Town read on Toblerone hasn’t changed, although I disagree with lots of his reads in post 432.
I agree with Toblerone’s read on TheDominator, I think everyone agree Dom is scummy so this isn’t original in any way.
I agree with Toblerone that LicketyQuickety is very difficult to play with, but I like LicketyQuickety’s display of logic in post 447.

As my first action, the cop is

going

to investigate Nachomamma8 and you are going to Town read me for saying such.

So you're saying you would want a cop to come out day 2 and tell the mafia who they are?
Doesn't seem like town play to me

VOTE: LicketyQuickety

WHich reads do you specifically disagree with and why? Thanks

He says "So you're saying" and follows that up with an assumption on the motive of my play.

He is coming on strong here because there is an incredible amount of intent behind him saying this.

He is basically saying "I just caught you trying to out the Cop!" but he says it in a way that shows how he got to that conclusion in an attempt to influence others to agree with his point.
He then makes a comment "Doesn't seem like a town play to me." This language used here is downplayed showing he is so secure in his statement that he doesn't feel the need to butter it up and that the statement speaks for itself.
Then he votes me thinking there is no more explanation needed.
[...]

^ Like this very articulate explanation, if you (LQ) could keep up explanations that are this simple I would be much more inclined to trust you.

I agree with you that Rautherdir’s reasoning was patchy, but then so was LicketyQuickety’s reasoning for voting Rautherdir.
I’m finding it difficult to read Nacho because of how confident he is, and also being IC he is taking such a leading role that there aren’t really any Scum reads, yet. I find the idea that Nacho may be Scum very very unsettling as being such an experienced player I’d imagine it would be very difficult to realise it.
Need more content from FancyPants.
Getting a slight town read from Lovesick but agree with Toblerone that we need more stuff less fluff from her.

EBWOP:

Which reads do you specifically disagree with and why? Thanks

[toblerone187]

What I find interesting is that TheDominator is on the forum's active list but isn't posting here. It seems that its lack of posts is intentional.
Now, what conclusions we should draw from that, I have no idea rn.

Yes, I pointed this out previously

[toblerone187]

@Toblerone is English your first language?

Sorry I forgot to come back to this. Yes it is. Why do you ask? Have I misunderstood something or have I said something you could not understand?

[toblerone187]

Not sure I like how LQ qualifies his playstyle on two occasions his first post 6 and here 47, it feels like pre emptively making an excuse for later.

Toblerone doesn't say much in these first few pages worth mentioning.

Funny that you should put these two things one after another as I said something similar:

The whole LQ/cop thing seems to me either to be an innocent attempt to get conversation going, OR it could be an attempt to make it look like her is.

And all the "not traditional" stuff - whilst I have no idea what he means - I don't like it. It could be setting things up for an argument he will use later.

So I did say something worth mentioning

[toblerone187]

Not sure I like how LQ qualifies his playstyle on two occasions his first post 6 and here 47, it feels like pre emptively making an excuse for later.

Toblerone doesn't say much in these first few pages worth mentioning.

Funny that you should put these two things one after another as I said something similar:

The whole LQ/cop thing seems to me either to be an innocent attempt to get conversation going, OR it could be an attempt to make it look like her is.

And all the "not traditional" stuff - whilst I have no idea what he means - I don't like it. It could be setting things up for an argument he will use later.

So I did say something worth mentioning

Sorry, scratch that - I did not say that in the first 5 pages so you would not have got to it yet

[toblerone187]

@Toblerone
You accused me of being scummy for asking you who you would kill earlier, can you explain what you feel my scum intent was here?

It was not so much the asking me who I would kill. What got me was that out of all the content posted (very little of which was from me) it seemed strange to me that you would ask such a question of me. There were so many others who had raised so many other points to me but in only your second post of substance you were questioning me about who I would kill. Just seemed odd to me and made me think you were avoiding engaging with others.

Looking at your analysis since you came back, it is far more measured and you appear to have been through everything in detail and made sensible assessments. I am therefore less inclined to think of you as scum. But I would like you to explain your earlier behaviour and why you asked me that rather than addressing everything else that had gone in on the game

[toblerone187]

Toblerone is apparently offended that I questioned him

By the way, I was not

offended

, more concerned/confused as why you you questioned me and ignored pretty much everything else

[toblerone187]

Hi all if you have anything specific to ask me ask now. I apologise for my absence but this thread has exploded in a very busy weekend for me, and has ceased to become a game I can follow in idle moments.
I'll do a full read list and my game analysis this evening when I have a solid three hours to read and think. Until then as I said bring your most pertinent questions to the fore.

Please be thorough, you could easily see something we missed.

This is an interesting post from Connor - it seems to be saying "Look at me! I am town! I am trying to hunt scum"
An unnecessary post I think

[toblerone187]

In any case will you answer my question above now?

Which question? I responded to you in 570

[toblerone187]

Connor, why do you think that Dom is a bad line of pursuit? So far, the only contribution he's managed to make is attempting to take credit for starting the game, which doesn't really seem like a town mindset to me.

If we don't find anything better by the end of the day I'd happily lynch Dom; however, there's no point pressuring a player who's only posts are prod dodges when I could be looking for scum where I have information.

My initial thoughts were that I would be reluctant to lynch Dom. I could not see someone deliberately avoiding the thread so obviously if they were scum - it would be suicide and their scum mate would be pushing them to be posting and probably advising them what to post. I took it to be a townie who was simply disinterested in the game or a town newbie that didn't know what to do. I would be reluctant to lynch anyone town, regardless of inactivity as it would be at the least a lost vote for town and worse a possible power role. If they continue to be inactive or only avoid prods they would be replaced.

But then I looked through Dom's past posts from a recent game and he clearly does know what to do and is not a newbie. So that makes me lean more him being scum and so I would be more inclined to vote to lynch him

[toblerone187]

@Toblerone

You accused me of being scummy for asking you who you would kill earlier, can you explain what you feel my scum intent was here?

Just seemed odd to me and made me think you were avoiding engaging with others.

[toblerone187]

their scum mate would be pushing them to be posting and probably advising them what to post.

Explain please?

Well if I was scum and my other scum was not posting in the game thread I would be telling them to get posting or they would be drawing attention to themselves. If they were struggling I would be giving them tips on what to say - or even giving them the words

[toblerone187]

their scum mate would be pushing them to be posting and probably advising them what to post.

Explain please?

Well if I was scum and my other scum was not posting in the game thread I would be telling them to get posting or they would be drawing attention to themselves. If they were struggling I would be giving them tips on what to say - or even giving them the words

OK well this is either a scum ploy or a town tell.
Scum can't talk during the day.

Hmm.

I thought scum had a thread they could talk in

I see you were scum in the last game you played?

Yes I think I was - it was years ago. I was lynched if i remember correctly

[toblerone187]

Edit: Ninja'd

By the way, what does this mean?

[toblerone187]

Read the role pms in the second post, it says night only.

Ok sorry

[toblerone187]

Alright, in order of most scummy to most towny:

TheDominator. I know you said excepting lurkers, but this goes beyond lurking.
LicketyQuickety. Rolefishing in 6. I still don't like that.
ConnorJC. Going with the popular vote most all of the time.
Superhans. Just not enough town action
Lovesick. It felt like genuine emotion when she was defending herself. However, her lack of attacks on other players could have put her higher in this list.
Nachomamma8. Would have been most town on this list if I saw more recent content
FancyPants. You immediately set about scum-hunting after getting back on.

Ok so I have not been the most active on here, but why did you not include me on your read list Rautherdir? Not wanting to sound like I am feeling left out but why am I left out?

Superhans did not pick up on it either:

@Rautherdir, who do you think is scum (excepting lurkers) and why?

Alright, in order of most scummy to most towny:

TheDominator. I know you said excepting lurkers, but this goes beyond lurking.
LicketyQuickety. Rolefishing in 6. I still don't like that.
ConnorJC. Going with the popular vote most all of the time.
Superhans. Just not enough town action
Lovesick. It felt like genuine emotion when she was defending herself. However, her lack of attacks on other players could have put her higher in this list.
Nachomamma8. Would have been most town on this list if I saw more recent content
FancyPants. You immediately set about scum-hunting after getting back on.

Your Dominator read is very safe, everyone bar LQ agrees with you.
You are flip flopping like crazy on your LQ read.
ConnorJC is at least contributing judgement, and more original ideas than you.
Lovesick read isn't original, pointed out by LQ.
Nachomamma8's town read isn't explained... I have some more recent content, does that make more the most town in your books?
FancyPants just voted against you and you haven't properly addressed his attack.

[toblerone187]

Okay, to be perfectly honest? My vote was to get him to give me a reason for voting me in the first place. After I saw that was going nowhere I put my vote on TheDom who I am almost certain at this point is scum. Out of those, probably 3.

I'm coming to the conclusion that post 6 was just an RVS thing.

Okay. I'm wondering in case I get quickhammered. Actually, if anyone quickhammers me before I can claim, policy-lynch them please.

PEdit. No.

There's a reason I was suspicious of post 6

.

So you say you are now thinking LQ's post 6 was effectively a joke or was intended to move the game forward and get conversation going but less than half an hour later you say there as a reason for your suspicions of that post. So can you clarify where you stand currently? Are you no longer suspicious? If not, what changed your mind and when and why did you bring up your suspicions again after you had changed your mind?

[toblerone187]

@Superhans

@Toblerone is English your first language?

Sorry I forgot to come back to this. Yes it is. Why do you ask? Have I misunderstood something or have I said something you could not understand?

[toblerone187]

I'm not scum though. Though the other Power role could probably realize something I've left out and hinted at a few times.

The

other

power role?

Are you claiming tracker or doctor then?

Ok I am confused here about whether Rauther has claimed and

what

he has claimed
Looking at the matrix, at this stage Mafia can have no idea which PRs town have. Even if Rauther is a Mafia roleblocker there are still 4 possible town PRs, correct? And he could not safely claim tracker as a cop or jailkeeper could call him out on that yes?

@Connor, why did you only mention tracker or doctor? Am I missing something?

[toblerone187]

@Toblerone,
The language question was because I noticed you used loads of exclamation marks! I find that this is often the case (in my experience at least) with people who speak English as a second language.

Hmmm.... never really noticed that I do to be honest! <<< Oh look

Just for interest I went back and checked my posts and I have used 12 exclamation marks in 54 posts. Not excessive, but yeah ok

[toblerone187]

@Toblerone if Lovesick turns out to be Mafia (e.g she snaps under the weight of the guilt and reveals herself) who would you suspect is the second Mafia?

This is a hypothetical situation, so you may think it is kinda silly, but please humour me.

I need to have a read and a think about this one. I have not consider Lovesick as a serious scum prospect so need to read back - won't have time for a bit but will come back to it

[toblerone187]

I agree with your Dom Read,
I agree with your logic that LQ is sometimes difficult to understand, although my opinion on LQ changes, as admist lots of his confusing posts, he often posts a really original and insightful read, that really helps town play. I'm now 90% sure LQ is town.
No clue about Nacho. I find him unsettling, but he is clearly playing pro-Town so far.
I have a slight (very slight) scum read on ConnorJC. Similar reasons to you.
Rautherdir, I also don't know about this, but it seems that if Nacho's logic is sound and everyone agrees with it, I was wrong about him. At the time of your post, I agreed with your read.
Lovesick I agreed at the time, now I'm really not so sure, especially since Rautherdir is less likely to be scum.

And Fancypants?

[toblerone187]

I agree with your Dom Read,
I agree with your logic that LQ is sometimes difficult to understand, although my opinion on LQ changes, as admist lots of his confusing posts, he often posts a really original and insightful read, that really helps town play. I'm now 90% sure LQ is town.
No clue about Nacho. I find him unsettling, but he is clearly playing pro-Town so far.
I have a slight (very slight) scum read on ConnorJC. Similar reasons to you.
Rautherdir, I also don't know about this, but it seems that if Nacho's logic is sound and everyone agrees with it, I was wrong about him. At the time of your post, I agreed with your read.
Lovesick I agreed at the time, now I'm really not so sure, especially since Rautherdir is less likely to be scum.

And Fancypants?

Although admittedly my read was when he was not contributing and due to his question to me. I would say that my read has changed to town now

but

with reservation that he is an experienced player and could easily be scum who knows how to play so as to be read as town

See this is my problem - most of you lot (including yourself) are far more experienced than me and could easily lead me in any way you want. I can only rely on other townies telling me if they think I am being led or manipulated.

There has been a lot of discussion about game theory which to be honest I have not really followed

[toblerone187]

Personally in my opinion, the only right moment for lurker hunting is if they had contributed nothing at all and half of our given time has gone. I mean otherwise, hunting for lurkers is a very easy way of lynching players and if done right, can be an advantage to the scum more so than the town as the ratio of mafia to town is 2:7.

If I have solid townreads on three people and I lynch a lurker, I have a 40% chance of lynching scum. If I have solid townreads on 5 people and I lynch a lurker, I have a 66% chance of lynching scum. You point out that the odds are against us early but that shouldn't mean anything; when we lynch we aren't lynching randomly and waiting for information to fall into our lap is silly when there is no guarantee it will ever do so.

But there is still a chance that your "solid town read" can be scum right?

Seriously? Is that it?

[toblerone187]

We also haven't spent enough time on Toblerone's "town slip" it's the difference between him being all but confirmed or sinister scum.

@Toblerone, why didn't you realise scum couldn't talk during the day despite playing scum the last time you played? And tell the truth or I'll know .

Yeah I know I fucked up. The last game I played on here was over 6 years ago. I have looked back and there was no mafia talking during the day. It said it in my role PM too. I have played a few games on GPRO a couple of years ago mafia could speak on a thread during the day there. I simply forgot.

I also get what you are saying about either being confirmed town or a devious scum play

[toblerone187]

@Rautherdir I have read your ISO and believe I understand your hints. very very subtle, and took me quite a while... your secret is safe with me.

When I have time I am gonna look through this as well

[toblerone187]

Oh, sorry, forgot to add this:

That's L-2

I am now inclined to vote Dom. I don;t know what his game is - it just seems nuts either as town or a scum.

I will not put him on L-1 though until it has been discussed more. I am going out in 30 mins and won't be back for the rest of the evening

I assume that Dom will now not be replaced as he has posted - if not then I would agree with a lynch as he is about as much use as a chocolate teapot.

[toblerone187]

@TheDominator37 Good to see that you are now analysing and commenting but can we have some sort of explanation of your absence? Thanks

[toblerone187]

Ok guys and gal, I have woken up this morning not well and I feel like shit. Had a quick flick through and I see a BIG post from Nacho addressed to me. I will address it as and when I can and I am aware there is other stuff too. Just wanted to let you know

[toblerone187]

Just one thing though that I remembered. @Rautherdir, you did not respond to this:

Okay, to be perfectly honest? My vote was to get him to give me a reason for voting me in the first place. After I saw that was going nowhere I put my vote on TheDom who I am almost certain at this point is scum. Out of those, probably 3.

I'm coming to the conclusion that post 6 was just an RVS thing.

Okay. I'm wondering in case I get quickhammered. Actually, if anyone quickhammers me before I can claim, policy-lynch them please.

PEdit. No.

There's a reason I was suspicious of post 6

.

So you say you are now thinking LQ's post 6 was effectively a joke or was intended to move the game forward and get conversation going but less than half an hour later you say there as a reason for your suspicions of that post. So can you clarify where you stand currently? Are you no longer suspicious? If not, what changed your mind and when and why did you bring up your suspicions again after you had changed your mind?

[toblerone187]

Sorry for my absence. Seriously unwell. Looks like I only have about 60 new posts to catch up on so will read through and see if I am up to some thinking and responding

[toblerone187]

Okay, to be perfectly honest? My vote was to get him to give me a reason for voting me in the first place. After I saw that was going nowhere I put my vote on TheDom who I am almost certain at this point is scum. Out of those, probably 3. I'm coming to the conclusion that post 6 was just an RVS thing.

Okay. I'm wondering in case I get quickhammered. Actually, if anyone quickhammers me before I can claim, policy-lynch them please.

PEdit. No. There's a reason I

was

suspicious of post 6.

So you say you are now thinking LQ's post 6 was effectively a joke or was intended to move the game forward and get conversation going but less than half an hour later you say there as a reason for your suspicions of that post. So can you clarify where you stand currently? Are you no longer suspicious? If not, what changed your mind and when and why did you bring up your suspicions again after you had changed your mind?

Emphasis added. When I said "was" I meant at the very beginning of the game up until I no longer felt that suspicious.

Ok so you answered some of my questions but you did not fully answer it. Please see underlined bits

So can you clarify where you stand currently? Are you no longer suspicious? If not,

what changed your mind and when

and

why did you bring up your suspicions again after you had changed your mind?

[toblerone187]

But you can't come up with 90% without measures. That would be the same as saying 9/10. Do you have quantifiable evidence to say that I will be Town 9 times out of 10? You don't have that info because I have been Mafia 30.6% of my games. If we want to look only at Newbie games, I have been Town 5/8 times = 62.5% = 27.5% Scum.

So I ask that you share your math if you have it, otherwise it can't be used.

What a load of rubbish!

I am 100% sure you are either pretentious or acting pretentious - do you want me to show you the maths?

[toblerone187]

Previously you said links were town, now you think a player with no links is town? Also, you complain about other players (Ex. me) not posting readlists, but it's ok for toblerone to be mostly fluff?

I was one of the first to post a full readlist (possibly actually the first - I can't recall)

[toblerone187]

UNVOTE:

You weren't voting anyone?

I was unvoting Lovesick.

No you weren't

[toblerone187]

@Nacho re your posts 924 and 932:

I am a little bothered by you asking whether you're considered a lurker or not; is there a reason to do so? I can think of scum motivation for the question: you're trying to make sure that you won't be involved in the lurker-hunt. Town motivation is a little murkier.

My concern was that I was reading through but not contributing much. And yes I did not want to be branded a lurker if lurkers were cosidered to be scum. My point was that if was considered a lurker and Rauth was saying lurkers are scum then he was wrong.

In post 170, toblerone187 wrote:
but my gut reaction is town. She seems to be new here like me so I get the inactivity

In post 179, toblerone187 wrote:
Ok sorry Lovesick is not such a newbie as I had thought

Did this revelation change your read on her at all?

In all honesty, hard to remember now how it changed my view at that time. So much more has happened since then but I do know that I am not so sure that she is town now

In post 188, toblerone187 wrote:
In post 186, FancyPants wrote:
@Toblerone, if you had to kill someone right now who would it be.

Given the level of content you have posted and now suddenly this question, I would kill you

When I initially read this post, I thought FP was asking who you would kill as scum and townread the brazenness of it.
Now that I actually know what's going on, I don't think your reasoning really holds. Why did you say that FP hadn't made any observations or given any reads when he'd already posted 133 by that point?

Did I say that FP had not made any observations or given any reads? I recall posting that the post with the question to me was only his 2nd substantial post of the game

In post 432, toblerone187 wrote:
Mainly gut feel but there were a couple of things such as when LQ said he was agreeing with him a lot and he quickly defended himself.

Why did you find this scummy?
Do you think that LQ had a good point when he said that Connor was agreeing with him a lot or was him quickly defending himself the part that stood out to you?

It was the fact that he felt the need to defend himself so readily against the accusation. We have covered this before about the fact that not everyone can have totally different viewpoints

Scratch my earlier question now that I see you already answered it.

Ok, answered twice now then!

In post 813, toblerone187 wrote:
@TheDominator37 Good to see that you are now analysing and commenting but can we have some sort of explanation of your absence? Thanks

What do you think of the actual content of what he's posted?

My post was as Dom had just started posting. His content seemed to be good analysis but you know what, lot's of people are posting good analysis but they can't all be town. I don't see good analysis by experienced players as being an indicator of alignment. Those of you who have been playing for a while will be used to doing analysis and I'm sure can then twist it as you see fit to suit your agenda

Whilst Dom did eventually "explain" his absence, he was not do so immediatly and he made no attempt to explain it during his absence or tell us in advance. I am still thinking he is scum


I think I have got the quotes all right. I hope I have covered all your questions

[toblerone187]

I think that Toblerone is town largely in part for the daychat slip that he expressed (I believe that he was genuinely lost earlier, I don't believe that he went from lost to faking townslips in the course of 3-4 days), there are a number of tonal things that I think are more likely town than not (I think that his frustration with LQ was genuine and more likely to be coming from town, I liked his annoyance when he felt people were ignoring him, I like his transparency of why he was lurking early and I like how he has approached other lurkers this game). As far as actual gamesolving goes, what he's posted seems genuine and he hasn't been afraid to go his own way at times (his LQ and FancyPants reads both included original reasoning/were serious scumreads before they were scumreads).

I would like him to explore his Connor read a bit more since it seems that one has fallen to the wayside

and, while I'm not really troubled by the "am I a lurker thing" anymore, wouldn't mind an explanation for that either if he has one.

I'm intending to re-do all my reads when I can but not up to any more tonight. I'm going to bed

[toblerone187]

I'll be posting a full reads list soon, but I want to see toblerone's list first.

Why?

[toblerone187]

UNVOTE:

You weren't voting anyone?

I was unvoting Lovesick.

When did you vote Lovesick?

It was implied.

What does that even mean?

[toblerone187]

The unvote is what was important here. I was thinking Lovesick was getting a little too bombarded with 3 people ganging up on them so I decided to unvote. If they were/ar town, that can be a nightmare. I know I've been there and I'm pretty sure you can see why.

But you did not even specify who you were unvoting so how could that possibly have taken the pressure off Lovesick when you did not say her name?

[toblerone187]

The unvote is what was important here. I was thinking Lovesick was getting a little too bombarded with 3 people ganging up on them so I decided to unvote. If they were/ar town, that can be a nightmare. I know I've been there and I'm pretty sure you can see why.

But you did not even specify who you were unvoting so how could that possibly have taken the pressure off Lovesick when you did not say her name?

@ LQ - Please answer

[toblerone187]

I'll be posting a full reads list soon, but I want to see toblerone's list first.

Why?

It will likely influence my read on you, which I'm really on the fence about.

Ok so that is your read on me but how would my reads influence your reads on everyone else? You don't have to wait for mine to give yours. And as I still feel like shit you may be waiting a while for mine

[toblerone187]

@Mod - not well at all but will get on the thread every now and then

@All - ditto. Will do my best to catch up and go back over old stuff too when I am feeling better

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[toblerone187]

I'm bored of this game tbh. Ill catch up later

Seriously poor play. Let's give ourselves all a Christmas present and get rid of him

VOTE: TheDominator37

[toblerone187]

Ok firstly my apologies for lynching Dominator. I was feeling rough (still am) and logged on and saw his comment and was pissed off with him so I voted him. I did not even think to check the votecount and didn't realise I had lynched him until I got the PM to say N1 had started and I checked the thread again. Having said that I doubt he would have responded as he didn't respond to LQs vote that put him on L-1 I think

[toblerone187]

At this point, it looks like Scum went for the Kill most likely to solve the game. The other logical choice for NK was myself. The reason for this is that everyone is Town reading me.

Really? What makes you think that everyone is town reading you?

[toblerone187]

So am I correct in thinking that if Rauth's claim is to be believed we have a useless Mafia roleblocker and a mafia goon left?

[toblerone187]

Sorry I forgot to say that I am still not well but will keep up with the thread as much as possible

[toblerone187]

Toblerone, what is your read on LQ?

I have never really felt that LQ was town, hence my post 1120

I have said before that his confusing posts and inability to answer simple question with simple answers does not help town and does not help with scum hunting

I would support an LQ lynch

[toblerone187]

I think you guys are missing a key detail:

I'm bored of this game tbh. Ill catch up later

Seriously poor play. Let's give ourselves all a Christmas present and get rid of him

VOTE: TheDominator37

toblerone knew he was lynching Dom. I am not using this to say tobler is Scum, because I think he is Town, but I am using this to say if anyone should take heat for the hammer it should be Nacho and tobler. Reason for Nacho is that as IC, you should explain not to hammer someone who is at L-1 without a claim.

I knew that I was

voting for

TheDom. I did not realise I was casting the final vote. I wanted him lynched but I did not realise that my vote was the final one - the hammer vote as you call it

How on earth are you placing blame on Nacho for hammering??

[toblerone187]

At this point, it looks like Scum went for the Kill most likely to solve the game. The other logical choice for NK was myself. The reason for this is that everyone is Town reading me.

Really? What makes you think that everyone is town reading you?

I was under that impression because no one was really Scum reading me? Feel free to go back a check, I guess.

Not scum reading is different from town reading you To say that everyone is town reading you is simply wrong

[toblerone187]

At this point, it looks like Scum went for the Kill most likely to solve the game. The other logical choice for NK was myself. The reason for this is that everyone is Town reading me.

Really? What makes you think that everyone is town reading you?

I was under that impression because no one was really Scum reading me?

Feel free to go back a check, I guess

.

Not scum reading is different from town reading you To say that everyone is town reading you is simply wrong

Actually, why should I go back and check? I know for a start that I was scum reading you. So how about YOU go back and quote all of the town reads on you

[toblerone187]

I have been reading the thread. Nothing has changed for me and I would still support an LQ lynch

[toblerone187]

LQ-Toblerone
If LQ is scum but Nacho is town I think that Toblerone is more likely than FP/Lovesick as his partner. They haven't really interacted much though.

This is actually quite funny that you see me and LQ as a possible scum team. I have slammed him the whole game for his playing "style". Yeah I guess that could be distancing but hell that would be a bit obv wouldn't it?

[toblerone187]

lq picking up votes at this point is silly and surprising.

Why?

[toblerone187]

This game died.

Lets try this (risky, but its for a good cause):

Hi, everyone! I am Scum, come lynch me!!!

Funny thing is that last night I was thinking we should just get on an put some lynch pressure on you cos the game is going nowhere. Let's see what happens

VOTE: LicketyQuickety

LicketyQuickety is now on L-1

[toblerone187]

This game died.

Lets try this (risky, but its for a good cause):

Hi, everyone! I am Scum, come lynch me!!!

Funny thing is that last night I was thinking we should just get on an put some lynch pressure on you cos the game is going nowhere. Let's see what happens

VOTE: LicketyQuickety

LicketyQuickety is now on L-1

Just realised this will still not go anywhere as Nacho supports LQ, Lovesick is AWOL and we are waiting for a replacement for Fancypants

LQ - do you feel like self-voting?

[toblerone187]

I'm working on a POE at this point in time, that hasn't changed. We need a Town block.

Please explain what a Town block is. Thanks

[toblerone187]

Toblerone: confidant, forward, open fisted. Their posts demonstrate a level of sure footedness that is unlikely to come from inexperienced scum. They also town slipped hard on page 25.

My lynch pool today is solely Toblerone, and ConnorJC. I'm not supporting anything else.

Generating competing wagons on both the players in my lynch pool would be a wonderful winter time miracle for Grendel!

VOTE: toblerone187

Why the change in your read on me Grendel?

[toblerone187]

UNVOTE: LicketyQuickety

[toblerone187]

Also, while I'd love to lynch LQ today, it looks like that's not happening anytime soon. However, as I'm also fairly convinced Toblerone is scum, I have no problem joining a wagon that might actually kill off some scum.

UNVOTE: LicketyQuickety
VOTE: toblerone187

That's L-2

I am intrigued that I have gone from being seemingly town read by almost everyone as I recall to now being seen as scum

[toblerone187]

UNVOTE: LicketyQuickety

Please explain the unvote.

I voted LQ over the holidays when the the game died and LQ did he "I am scum" statement. I was keen to see what happened and at that time my gut feel was that LQ was scum. I am now leaning more towards thinking that he is not - gut feel again

[toblerone187]

UNVOTE: LicketyQuickety

Please explain the unvote.

I voted LQ over the holidays when the the game died and LQ did he "I am scum" statement. I was keen to see what hapSpened and at that time my gut feel was that LQ was scum. I am now leaning more towards thinking that he is not - gut feel again

So you put someone at L-1 because of a gut feel? What did you want to happen, another quickhammer?

What would a quickhammer have told us?

[toblerone187]

It been a consistent theme of Toblerone's to down play his experience in mafia. Upon first glance it appeared very much that he was town for asking such a question. But the point that my predecessor Fancy Pants brought up, sorta stuck with me. Toblerones has rolled scum before, and the game didn't feature day talk. SO while he hasn't played in a long time it just seems out of the blue for him to wonder about it. For instance, if he had never played in a scum game with day talk then how did he know that some scum get day talk? If he has a little experience playing mafia as he says he has then wouldn't he have assumed that scum only have night talk?

Him knowing the existence of both implies to me that he has at the least read up on mafia theory, and different types of set ups.

I have made it very clear what my mafia experience is. One game on here more than 6 years ago that I replaced into. My most recent experience hads been a couple of games on GPRO where I was mafia in both and we had a thread we could talk in the day. I have made this clear before but you have chosen to ignore this and are trying to build a case on the basis that my only experience has with no day thread - why are you doing that?

This game has been very intense and nothing like I have ever experienced before. Some of it is totally going over my head, especially some of LQ's stuff. If this is "Newbie" game I hate to think what some of the more advanced games are like - it is actually very offputting for a newbie

While their is the obvious negative of scum hammering without a claim, in that it draws lots of attention to the hammerer, and people get anger with them. Its beyond rare for somebody to actually be policy lynched for a derp hammer.

Usually what happens is that town assumes that the hammerer is town for their bold telling (Scum would never...), and hunt else where the next day. Often times though, an actual town derp hammer is followed by scum throwing shade that next day. Because they seem to think is pro-town to act disgusted at anti-town behavior. Fromm my experiences derp hammerers have come from both town, and scum. So usually what I look for is how much heat the hammerer gets the next day as an indicator of the hammerer's alignment. And- Unless I missed something in my initial read through, it appears to me that Toblerome went through the whole experience unscathed. Which points to him being scum.

How have I "gone through the whole experience unscathed"? I have gone from being town-read by most to being a lynch candidate

Let me take a moment to talk about posting habits:

He had 79 posts D1

Now as far as Toblerone's D2 play goes he has... 19. Taking into consideration that the day is only half ways over I'll haven 79 by 2, which is 39.5. A noticeable difference right?

So tobleone has been noticeably less prolithic today compared to yesterday. Also, if you actually read his posts today they show considerably less "work". He is no longer demonstrating the same effort to solve the game in the open handed way he had previously done D1.

This shift has me thinking that he is trying to lay low into lylo. Which is a very common scum behavior in my experience. To do as much as you can the first day, or so, then ride off that until nearing lylo. It's a bit more OB is larger games when doing a reread then here, but I think its still applicable.

To be fair, most people have posted less in this day phase than D1. It practically died at one point - understandable over the holidays. It has not helped with 2 players being replaced and another nearly being replaced. With others posting less there is less to respond to. In additon, and whilst it is not related to the game, I have been ill and my mum has been in hospital - still is.

To my mind you are trying to build a case on nothing

[toblerone187]

I think everybody should be condensing their votes down to 1)ConnoersJC, or 2)toblerone by EoD

looking at the D1's final vote count:

---

Lynching

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

TheDominator37

(L-0): Nachomamma8, ConnorJC,

Superhans

,

LicketyQuickety

, toblerone187

<

-

-

L

Y

N

C

H

Nachomamma8

(L-4):

TheDominator37

Superhans

(L-4): Lovesick

Rautherdir

(L-5): LicketyQuickety

Not voting

(2):

toblerone187,

FancyPants,

Rautherdir

Green=Confirmed town, Blue= Highly likely town

Its ideal to hunt off the final wagon of the day if at least 1/3rds of it has confirmed town, and prob town on it.

There is statistically a 1 in third chance of hitting scum with a rando lynch between Nacho, ConnorJC, and Tobleone. I'm detracting Nacho from the equation b/c his worth as town out weighs the risk of him being scum today imo. So that narrows it down to ConnorJC, and Tobleone.

You missed someone off your list - yourself

VOTE: Grendel

[toblerone187]

Speaking of, I have continually been noting that I think

one of you

is scum. I don't know which, and each time I look it seems my opinion on who's scum changes. But your insistence on getting what I'm saying wrong has convinced me to do this:

VOTE: ConnorJC

Trust me, if you flip town and there's no one better (i.e. no quickhammerer to lynch), I will get Toblerone lynched.

THIS IS THE L-2 VOTE. L-1 MUST PUT A WARNING UP NOTIFYING THE LYNCHING VOTE TO POST INTENT TO VOTE FIRST. IF YOU LYNCH WITHOUT LETTING THE LYNCHEE POST FIRST YOU WILL BE POLICY LYNCHED. IF L-1 FAILS TO PUT UP A NOTICE, THEY WILL BE POLICY LYNCHED.

I know tobler will die if I die, I'm not worried about that. The problem is going to be the second LyLo, where you have to choose the other scum.
I think you're going to miss, but good luck.

Will I die if/when you flip scum?

So who will die if I am lynched when I flip town?

[toblerone187]

I know tobler will die if I die, I'm not worried about that. The problem is going to be the second LyLo, where you have to choose the other scum.
I think you're going to miss, but good luck.

Actually, the more I think about it the scummier this post seems. It is like saying "I am resigned to being mislynched but it will help town but really you should move your votes to Toblerone so I am not lynched"

[toblerone187]

Of course, even with that pile of evidence we'd rather lynch me
So good luck on the second day of LyLo guys, I hope you choose correctly, but honestly I doubt it.

And again

[toblerone187]

I think everybody should be condensing their votes down to 1)ConnoersJC, or 2)toblerone by EoD

looking at the D1's final vote count:

---

Lynching

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

TheDominator37

(L-0): Nachomamma8, ConnorJC,

Superhans

,

LicketyQuickety

, toblerone187

<

-

-

L

Y

N

C

H

Nachomamma8

(L-4):

TheDominator37

Superhans

(L-4): Lovesick

Rautherdir

(L-5): LicketyQuickety

Not voting

(2):

toblerone187,

FancyPants,

Rautherdir

Green=Confirmed town, Blue= Highly likely town

Its ideal to hunt off the final wagon of the day if at least 1/3rds of it has confirmed town, and prob town on it.

There is statistically a 1 in third chance of hitting scum with a rando lynch between Nacho, ConnorJC, and Tobleone. I'm detracting Nacho from the equation b/c his worth as town out weighs the risk of him being scum today imo. So that narrows it down to ConnorJC, and Tobleone.

You missed someone off your list - yourself

VOTE: Grendel

That is a really weak reason to vote someone.

No you misunderstood - I am not voting him for not including himself in his list - that was a tongue in cheek comment

I am voting him for the false baseless case he is trying to build as set out in my post 1353

[toblerone187]

You set up for the quickhammer yesterday. If tobler is town then you made an accidental lynch happen.

How did he "make" it happen?

[toblerone187]

You set up for the quickhammer yesterday. If tobler is town then you made an accidental lynch happen.

How did he "make" it happen?

Fair enough, bad wording. He let it happen, and then tried to pass off the blame to nacho later.

Yes I do remember him doing that - trying to pass the blame. At the end of the day though it was me that hammered - inexperience combined with not being well and skimming the thread because I was not well

[toblerone187]

@toblerone, who do you think is scum right now?

Right now I am thinking Grendel because of his attempt to build a baseless case on me and his twisting of things and simply ignoring things that do not fit his case

And you ConnorJC because of your reaction to the prospect of being lynched

[toblerone187]

@toblerone, who do you think is scum right now?

I am still not happy that LQ is town. My views have changed from when I was totally convinced he was scum but you have actually just reminded me how he tried to blame Nacho for Dom's lynch

[toblerone187]

OK so let's look at your post case:

D1 quickhammer

Already covered and countered when addressing Grendel's "case"

I think LQ is scum, and LQ starts the day trying to get Tobler onto a town block

Well if we are scum together don't you think he would have explained to me what a townblock was and told me what he was going to do?

#1181

And your point is?

His interactions with LQ (Who remember, I think is scum) seem very sueprficial, almost like he's trying to avoid any real content between him and LQ

You seem to have forgotten about my early game interactions with him when I simply did not know what the hell he was saying. Since then I have largely ignored his posts because he confuses me so much

His "townslip" seems very fake.

Already covered and countered when addressing Grendel's "case"

Nice OMGUS

Again, your point is?

[toblerone187]

OK so let's look at your

post

case:

EBWOP

[toblerone187]

In post 1379, toblerone187 wrote:
And you ConnorJC because of your reaction to the prospect of being lynched

Explain that further please.

What more do I need to say?:

I know tobler will die if I die, I'm not worried about that. The problem is going to be the second LyLo, where you have to choose the other scum.
I think you're going to miss, but good luck.

Actually, the more I think about it the scummier this post seems. It is like saying "I am resigned to being mislynched but it will help town but really you should move your votes to Toblerone so I am not lynched"

[toblerone187]

When does he bother to check how many votes someone has? That's right, LQ. He puts L-1 in huge red text on the vote.

Sorry I forgot to cover this facet of your "case"

I had learnt my lesson with hammering Dom and the shit that LQ got for not pointing out that he had placed someone on L-1 so I made sure it was very clear

[toblerone187]

@toblerone, who do you think is scum right now?

I am still not happy that LQ is town. My views have changed from when I was totally convinced he was scum but you have actually just reminded me how he tried to blame Nacho for Dom's lynch

Out of me, LQ, and Grendel, who is your top scum read? (aka who do you think we should lynch).

You are swiftly moving to the top of my list

[toblerone187]

Please point me to your explanation, as I don't see it.

Really? So you think I am scum but you don't bother to read the post where I counter the other guy who thinks I am scum? Now to me that says you are not really bothered about my counter as you know it holds water and Grendel's case does not

The only thing that you do with my readlist is a poor attempt at distancing yourself from LQ.

No I didn't. I pointed out that I have criticised him the whole game and admitted that could be seen as obvious distancing

Your vote is extremely weak and based on the fact that Grendel is calling you scum.

No it is not. My vote is based on him trying to construct a false case on me

So you think it's scummy because I want who I think is scum to be lynched rather than me?

Why are you deliberately avoiding the point? I think you are scummy for repeatedly saying things to suggest that town will have a big problem if you are lynched but you will accept your fate

Pedit: And it happens again! See #1390.

I am thinking you are scummy because you are also building a false case with little foundation and you are ignoring the things that don't fit with your case

[toblerone187]

I dont think this back and forth between Tob and JC is TvT. There has to be a scummy player between them, i think the conversation would have resulted in agreeing to disagree by now if it was TvT.

Spoiler: Thinking out loud

Dont mind me, i like to publicly show my mental work.
If we mislynch today and we have a NK then tomorrow its 3 T v 2 S and we enter mylo. If we hit scum today then there is a NK, we enter tomorrow with 4 T v 1 S which gives is one more day that we could miss on a lynch. If that happens then we go to 2 T v 1 S mylo.

We have a semi-confirmed town, R. That leaves me with 5 possible scum. I personally think that if Connor or Tob flips town then it is likely the other is scummy and visa versa. That leaves LQ, Nacho, and Grendel with 1 scum among them.

Concerning the Connor/Tob conversations i do believe that an arguement can be made for Tob pertaining to the quickhammer but i think that would only be a piece of the puzzle. The other piece for me is he is pushing Connor pretty hard and

Tob appears to just be digging hard for mud to throw at Connor

, all of which is to fuel a CW and to not be lynched instead of actually seeming to scumread Connor. English version:

Tob seems to only scumread Connor as a CW to himself and he is hiding it by making a case

.

VOTE: Toblerone

THIS IS L-1, BE AWARE THAT IF YOU VOTE TOB THAT IT WILL BE A HAMMER.

Re the parts that I have underlined, are you actually even READING the thread??? I am not digging for any mud on Connor at all. What mud have I dug and slung at him? I am simply saying that his case on me has no basis - it is him that is digging for mud on me and finding a few specks of dust but trying to make them into a case.

I am not scumreading him as a CW - I am scumreading him because he is trying to construct a baseless case

[toblerone187]

His entire defense to Grendel is playing the newb card.

More rubbish! My entire defence is not about being a newb. Parts of it are because a lot of Grendel's supposed case against against me are that I am pretending to be a newbie when I am not. How do you want me to respond to that other than by showing that I am a newbie?

So again you are ignoring parts of my defense that do not suit your supposed case

[toblerone187]

I get a scum vibe off of him, so for me his tone is townie.

What???

[toblerone187]

Right, I am going to sleep now and I do not want to wake up dead. Does anyone mind if I put Conner on L-1?

[toblerone187]

Your first paragraph is all about your experience (ie the newb card).

Yes - as I said before, Grendel is asserting that I am pretending to be a newb when I am not. So I respond with my experience. I responded to his assertion - I did not "play the newb card"

Paragraph two is a question referencing the quickhammer which it looks like you're trying to explain away with the newb card.

There is absolutely no reference to being a newb here - why are you pretending there is? My words were:

How have I "gone through the whole experience unscathed"? I have gone from being town-read by most to being a lynch candidate

In what way is that playing the newb card? Stop making things up agains to justify what you are saying

Paragraph three is an irrelevant point about how frequently people were/are posting, not an argument at all.

It was very relevant actually. Grendel made a point and I responded to it. But you want to make it "irrelvant" because it does not fit with your assertion that I played the newb card in my entire response to Grendel

You like dodging my questions I see. Again, where in that defense did you explain your quickhammer and "townslip"?

I am not dodging any questions. I have previously explained my hammer and my townslip


My question to you is why do you keep making assertions and then when I refute them and show that you are incorrect (such as the assertion that my entire defense to Grendel was playing the newb card) why do you ignore that?

[toblerone187]

This is a horrible situation if this is town v town and one of us is going to get lynched. The only thing I am sure of is that I am town and that it appears to me that Connor is pushing a case that is baseless. This may be tunneling on his part but if one of us is going to be lynched I would obviously prefer it to be him because I am sure of my alignment. I hope that makes sense

I am therefore putting him on L-1 as I am aware that you guys are active while I am asleep and I am not around to defend myself any more

UNVOTE: Grendel

VOTE: ConnorJC

ConnorJC is now on L-1. Anothe vote on him will be a hammer

[toblerone187]

Ok I was not expecting to come back and the day still be in progress. I was expecting either Connor or myself to be dead

Connor keeps banging on that I have never explained my townslip or my hammer which is just rubbish

Townslip

Post 806

We also haven't spent enough time on Toblerone's "town slip" it's the difference between him being all but confirmed or sinister scum.

@Toblerone, why didn't you realise scum couldn't talk during the day despite playing scum the last time you played? And tell the truth or I'll know .

Yeah I know I fucked up. The last game I played on here was over 6 years ago. I have looked back and there was no mafia talking during the day. It said it in my role PM too. I have played a few games on GPRO a couple of years ago mafia could speak on a thread during the day there. I simply forgot.

I also get what you are saying about either being confirmed town or a devious scum play

Hammer

Post 1119

Ok firstly my apologies for lynching Dominator. I was feeling rough (still am) and logged on and saw his comment and was pissed off with him so I voted him. I did not even think to check the votecount and didn't realise I had lynched him until I got the PM to say N1 had started and I checked the thread again. Having said that I doubt he would have responded as he didn't respond to LQs vote that put him on L-1 I think

So Connor, you can now stop banging on about it and trying to make it look like I am refusing to explain myself

[toblerone187]

I did acknowledge that you only had one prevous game here, and it was years back.

Whats GPRO, and can you point me where you mentioned it?

I thought it was off that you knew about day talk was a thing if you were as new as you claimed. You had night talk your last game here, why did you think they'd have day talk now?

GPRO is an online motorsport management game and which has a forum where mafia is played

I mentioned it in post 806 that I quoted to Connor above

We also haven't spent enough time on Toblerone's "town slip" it's the difference between him being all but confirmed or sinister scum.

@Toblerone, why didn't you realise scum couldn't talk during the day despite playing scum the last time you played? And tell the truth or I'll know .

Yeah I know I fucked up. The last game I played on here was over 6 years ago. I have looked back and there was no mafia talking during the day. It said it in my role PM too. I have played a few games on GPRO a couple of years ago mafia could speak on a thread during the day there. I simply forgot.

I also get what you are saying about either being confirmed town or a devious scum play

[toblerone187]

Toblerone

If we're lynching me today tomorrow is LyLo. That means you guys need to lynch Toblerone. Don't let anyone say no to this.
Yes, I know LQ is going to come out to defend Toblerone.

Even if you think he's town

you need to lynch Tobler.

This is vital to town winning the game

.

Why would people lynch me if they think I am town? Why are you directing them to do that? Surely they should go after scum?

[toblerone187]

Misc Stuff

(Next post will be my last, I promise)

@Rautherdir

Ok, this is going nowhere.

I am very confident that Toblerone-LQ is the scum team.

Please reference this if/when I die.

By the way, Toblerone never responded to my question on where his defense is. Someone pressure him on that for me please.

Correct Town Play (aka How to Win)

Lynch Toblerone
Lynch LQ. If LQ is dead lynch Nacho. If both are dead lynch Grendel.

Notice who Connor does not mention in his lynch list?

Secret Agent Jin

. Perhaps a Connor-Jin scum team? Or is that too obvious?

[toblerone187]

Having said that, if Connor flips scum his lynch list will be pretty much ignored I guess?

Question to other players (and apologies for playing the "newb" card): is it normal for someone to set out a lynch list like that when they feel they are going to be lynched?

[toblerone187]

@Connor - if I am lynched, I will flip town - who will be your lynch list then?

And hypothetically, if I was to flip scum, who would you lynch tomorrow?

[toblerone187]

Have skimmed briefly as just got in, it is nearly midnight and I have to be up again in less than 6 hours so I will be brief

I have been mulling things over today and one thing that has been bugging me is Secret Agent Jin's posting of an intent to hammer Connor and then changing his mind and re-voting me and saying that Connor had convinced him that he was not scum. During that timeframe Connor did not really post any new info - just instructions for after his death. Thinking about it now it seemed a bit staged - whether that was staged between Connor and Jin or just staged by Jin I can't say

Another thing is the "just one more post" and then "oh one last thing - I promise this is it" type of posts from Connor seems a bit panicky. Now that could be panicky because he is scum and desperate to not be lynched or panicky because he is town and does not want town to lose out. But the latter does not fit with his "I accept my fate" projected attitude

I do have this horrible little voice niggling at me that perhaps Connor is town and scum are sitting there laughing at us and rubbing their hands with glee. But my gut is still telling me something does not stack up with him and the way he has been pushing things

[toblerone187]

@Plotinus (and all players) I will be around for part of the day tomorrow but I will then be away from Friday afternoon until Sunday evening (GMT) with limited access. Will check in as and when I can on my - posting will be difficult though

[toblerone187]

@Plotinus (and all players) I will be around for part of the day tomorrow but I will then be away from Friday afternoon until Sunday evening (GMT) with limited access. Will check in as and when I can on my - posting will be difficult though

Edited for Bold

V

/

L

A

n

o

t

e

d

-

-

P

[toblerone187]

Staged? Jin replaced in today, remember? Even if I was scum with him I would've have had time to communicate any plans.

Yes you are right. However, I did say it could be staged by Jin on his own. But even if you are scum with Jin, he would still know who you are and vice versa - you don't need to actually communicate to run something like that

I can't get away from his unvote and "intent to hammer Connor" then revote of me when Connor had actually added nothing new

[toblerone187]

I dont think this back and forth between Tob and JC is TvT. There has to be a scummy player between them, i think the conversation would have resulted in agreeing to disagree by now if it was TvT.

Spoiler: Thinking out loud

Dont mind me, i like to publicly show my mental work.
If we mislynch today and we have a NK then tomorrow its 3 T v 2 S and we enter mylo. If we hit scum today then there is a NK, we enter tomorrow with 4 T v 1 S which gives is one more day that we could miss on a lynch. If that happens then we go to 2 T v 1 S mylo.

We have a semi-confirmed town, R. That leaves me with 5 possible scum. I personally think that if Connor or Tob flips town then it is likely the other is scummy and visa versa. That leaves LQ, Nacho, and Grendel with 1 scum among them.

Concerning the Connor/Tob conversations i do believe that an arguement can be made for Tob pertaining to the quickhammer but i think that would only be a piece of the puzzle. The other piece for me is he is pushing Connor pretty hard and Tob appears to just be digging hard for mud to throw at Connor, all of which is to fuel a CW and to not be lynched instead of actually seeming to scumread Connor. English version: Tob seems to only scumread Connor as a CW to himself and he is hiding it by making a case.

VOTE: Toblerone

THIS IS L-1, BE AWARE THAT IF YOU VOTE TOB THAT IT WILL BE A HAMMER.

Are you aware of the "slip?"

This is my first game i replaced in on and i am struggling to retain the 55 pages of info i took in within two days, mauve replacing in isnt my thing. I am not aware of a slip other than the BP claim.

UNVOTE:

This is intent to hammer Connor

Say what you were going to say.

Yeah, im pretty convinced Connor isnt scum

VOTE: Toblerone

These are the two posts I referred to in my previous post. Inbetween these two posts SAJ did not interact with Connor

AT ALL

. He didn't question him, didn't respond to him - nothing at all

He just allowed him to continue to repeat about how bad his lynch would be for town and what town need to do afterwards (this was the whole series of "One last things", "Last post I promise" posts IIRC)

I just find it very strange that he can go from intent to hammer Connor to being convinced he isn't easily with no interaction and also noticeably no reasoning as to his change of mind

[toblerone187]

All right Connor, enough of the "Toblerone is playing the newb card" posts now don't you think? Do you realise that you are actually probably making reference to it far more than I am?

I'm a newbie, live with it! (or die with it LOL)!!

[toblerone187]

Oh, no, please don't mislynch someone besides me. If we do that town likely loses tomorrow.

What is the difference between you being mislynched and me being mislynched, or someone else being mislynched?

Pedit: Will get back to you if I can before I leave Rath... just working my way through another couple of pages

[toblerone187]

Honestly, I'm loosing hope in this game.

We're going to lynch me today

and be in LyLo tomorrow.
Town actually has a good chance to screw up tomorrow and lynch like Jin, which would give scum a perfect game.
Then, if we make it to day two of LyLo Rautherdir isn't going to lynch LQ and scum are going to win.

I got to go for a couple hours.

Might as well just get it over with and lynch me.

I can't believe that Jin is the only one that can see that Tobler is scum.
Playing the newb card really is insane in newbie games.

More of the same (underlined). See I know I am town and I am not at resigned to being lynched in any way. I will fight to the end not to be lynched because I cannot see how it can benefit town more than hunting out and lynching a scum. So I do not understand a world where a

town

Connor would come out with all this "I am resigned to being lynched" that we are getting from him. Perhaps I am wrong and a townie who has played a number of games where they have been mislynched as town would react that way?

[toblerone187]

I've been asking the others, so it's your turn now. What do you think about Nacho, LQ, and Grendel?

Nacho

My feeling is town because when both Connor and I were on L-1 he was the one who could hammer IIRC. Not got time now unfortunately to go back and see if he was even around then. My general read on him throughout has been a town read BUT I am very well aware that he is a very experienced player and would have no problem with fooling me (Ooh look Connor - there's my newb card again!)

LQ

Most of D1 I have not felt he was town because of his weird style which I felt just confused things and did not help town. But D2 has been different. I am also aware that he has fought my side strongly and that naturally makes me feel "warmer" towards him cos I know his arguments are sound! But I am not naive enough to be fooled totally into thinking he is town by that. A scum could easily do that - knowing that if I am lynched I will flip town and they can get townie points

Grendel

I did feel he pushed a baseless case on me before but he has openly retracted some of that case and admitted he was wrong in areas. Backtracking maybe to take the heat off the fact I showed he had a poor case? Possibly. Or genuine town realising they had been tunneling? My scum read on him is now lower and I would go as far as saying what I think you guys refer to as a "null" read

That is the difference with Connor - he will not back down despite me showing his arguments have little basis. So he could be townie tunneling. Or he could be scum afraid to back down now as he has pushed it so hard (although I have seen some evidence of him backing down a bit overnight - the "maybe there is a world where you are town" comment comes to mind)

[toblerone187]

I can't get away from his unvote and "intent to hammer Connor" then revote of me when Connor had actually added nothing new

It's scummy independently; I'm not sure why you think that it reflects badly on Connor.

Nope I was not saying that it reflects on Connor - at least I didn't mean to (sorry not got a lot of time so can't look back right now)

[toblerone187]

That is the difference with Connor - he will not back down despite me showing his arguments have little basis. So he could be townie tunneling. Or he could be scum afraid to back down now as he has pushed it so hard (although I have seen some evidence of him backing down a bit overnight - the "maybe there is a world where you are town" comment comes to mind)

Connor's stubbornness is what feels town to me. As scum in his position, I'm not quite sure he wants the spotlight to this extent. When his head was on the line and it looked like he was probably getting lynched, he kept calling for your head and kept pushing the case on you. That's a townier mindset than not versus Grendel who pushed a questionable case and then backed off quickly (implying he never believed it in the first place).

Yes I can agree with that. As being in the same position myself I will not back down. So me as a town Connor would act very similarly - I don't know though if I would be blinded to my poor argument as much as he seems to be though.

That is the difference between us right now (if he is town). He is pushing a poor argument IMO whereas I have I believe successful refuted that poor argument. SO I cannot draw a direct parallel if we are both town. I hope that makes sense

[toblerone187]

I have a short time before I have to leave so will check the thread again in about an hour

[toblerone187]

LQ
Most of D1 I have not felt he was town because of his weird style which I felt just confused things and did not help town. But D2 has been different. I am also aware that he has fought my side strongly and that naturally makes me feel "warmer" towards him cos I know his arguments are sound!

But I am not naive enough to be fooled totally into thinking he is town by that. A scum could easily do that - knowing that if I am lynched I will flip town and they can get townie points

The scum is strong here. Really, you think LQ is town because he defended you? Excellent read.\

I swear that most of Tobler's reads are based on whether the person is town or scum reading him.

Where did I say I thought LQ is town because he defended me? Read the underlined and bolded bit again

Are you a bit simple or just scummy?

[toblerone187]

Have skimmed thru briefly and caught Connor trying to make out that I am lying about day talk on GPRO

I actually take offence at that. Accusations within the game are accepted... it is what the game is about. Making accusations about things outside of the game and making me out to be a liar is NOT acceptable

Please check out this link to post #643 in a game on GPRO

https://www.gpro.net/gb/forum/ViewTopic ... ost4043804

I don't know if that will hyperlink but you can copy and paste it am sure

[toblerone187]

OK just got in after a long weekend and a long journey. Tired and hungry so will not be posting anything more tonight. I see Connor is still on my case - it's getting a bit boring now

I will catch up tomorrow when I can (it's my birthday though)

[toblerone187]

Sorry just wanted to check in as my V/LA was until this evening but I am not up to doing anything tonight

[toblerone187]

Good Lord, where is TOWN!!!

This is ridiculous. This lynch is very fucking important and town is off in lala land.

Connor, get your vote on Jin ASAP, thanks.

Do you want my vote on Jin too? Or is there a reason you want me to stay on Connor?

[toblerone187]

Or are you trying to entice Connor off me?

[toblerone187]

Also, Happy Birthday toblerone187!

Thank you!

[toblerone187]

OK just got in after a long weekend and a long journey. Tired and hungry so will not be posting anything more tonight. I see Connor is still on my case - it's getting a bit boring now

I will catch up tomorrow when I can (it's my birthday though)

My scum read just went up a notch with this post.

I find this amusing as I didn't think it could have gone any higher

The trouble is that nothing I do or say is going to to change your opinion of me. That is obvious now so there is not much point in engaging with you. But I do have one question for you that I would like an update on:

If you succeed in pushing the lynch on me which you are so keen to do I will flip scum. Assuming you are not NK'd, what will be your play the next day?

[toblerone187]

Connor had heavy scum reads on LQ and Toblerone, but he never really specified his reads in the event of SAJ being scum and Connor being the NK. I honestly expected someone else to be NKed if you were scum.

Yes I have been looking through and came to the same conclusion. He covered just about every other possibility but not that

[toblerone187]

Grendel not voting at the end of the day looks absolutely horrible, Grendel having Connor/Jin as his top two suspects and yet spending far far far more time pushing Connor than Jin looks horrible, and Grendel voting me for "linking him to his partner" as his reasoning for the start of this day additionally looks horrible. I think that Connor was a bad kill by mafia regardless of who killed him; I can see worlds where toblerone thinks that it's optimal, but even in that situation, it would be a silly kill.

Nope - it is not a scenario I wanted to see. Especially with people saying yesterday that our spat was TvT

[toblerone187]

VOTE: Nachomama

Yesterday I was paranoid that Nacho was linking Jin to me, and now I am sure of it.

What made you paranoid and where did you express it?

[toblerone187]

I believe Ruatie's BP claim. To the point that my tr on him is on par with my LQ town read.

There have been quite a few shifts in my reads.

Reads:

LicketyQuickity, Rautherdir,

Lovesick,

NachoMama, Toblerone,

ConnorJC

My lynch pool today is solely Toblerone, and ConnorJC. I'm not supporting anything else.

I'll sit down and explain the believability of the BP claim, as well as my post catch up reads--- tomorrow.

Connor/Toblerone being his sole scumreads is convenient as all hell, especially when Toblerone was one of his top townreads when he started catching up. I strongly believe both Connor and Toblerone were town and scum believed that the day was ending with a lynch on one of those two - I don't think that it's coincidence that SAJ's approach was a direct mirror to this one.

Second - his read switch on Toblerone is fabricated. It is bullshit.

Toblerone: confidant, forward, open fisted. Their posts demonstrate a level of sure footedness that is unlikely to come from inexperienced scum. They also town slipped hard on page 25.

This is his original reasoning on Toblerone that made Toblerone his top townread.
This is his reasoning which is extremely problematic because there are no quotes or references in his case that have to do with anything after Page 25, meaning that he's claiming toblerone went from top townread to top scumread because FancyPants asked him about the daytalk bit, which isn't something that I believe for a second.

He also then swiftly backtracked his scum read when I challenged him on each point. Someone (LQ I think?) said that was quite a scummy thing to do as compared to Connor sticking to his guns and keeping to push a weak case which was more townie (proved to be right)

[toblerone187]

You guys have totally lost me now I must confess.... mylo lylo schmolo arrrggghhhh!!

I am at risk of being led and manipulated here

[toblerone187]

You guys have totally lost me now I must confess.... mylo lylo schmolo arrrggghhhh!!

I am at risk of being led and manipulated here

what do you think of what I've brought up on Grendel?
what do you think of what Grendel's brought up on me?

It seems a solid case on Grendel

I want to hear back from Grendel on my question

[toblerone187]

Toblerone, what do you think about a Grendel Lynch?

I will support it if you do. You are actually the only one I trust as town. If you are scum you have played really well and you probably deserve the win

[toblerone187]

Does anyone see a world where Rautherdir is scum?

[toblerone187]

Good game.... I think!! I really struggled at times I must admit

[toblerone187]

Yeah, Connor being convinced I was scum did not help

[toblerone187]

I would appreciate any thoughts/views on my play cos I did struggle at times

[toblerone187]

I would appreciate any thoughts/views on my play cos I did struggle at times

OK, so one tip that will help you in an indirect way. Try not to slip. What this will do is force you to pay more attention to both what you say and what you read, which will lead to better play.

Yeah my townslip over the daytalk actually led to more grief than it helped

[toblerone187]

I would appreciate any thoughts/views on my play cos I did struggle at times

OK, so one tip that will help you in an indirect way. Try not to slip. What this will do is force you to pay more attention to both what you say and what you read, which will lead to better play.

Yeah my townslip over the daytalk actually led to more grief than it helped

Sorry for how hard I needled you on that respect. I was trying really hard to find something to grab onto.

It seemed like you were legitimately getting upset about it though, which made me feel guilty.

No I just knew your case was very weak and didn't stack up
It was Connor I get genuinely upset with as I felt he was saying that I was lying about something outside of the game. I was ill at the time and at that time I also still thought Connor was scum. If I had thought he was town tunnelling I would have not got so upset