[OLD] Open Setup Discussion and Nominations

[Thesp]

I'm going to get signups on an Open Game going in the next day or so. I'm only considering nominations (for my ease at the moment) from May 1st on, so if there's something you'd like to see, please put it forth. Simple, open setups are ideal (nothing too far out there), and please clarify any unusual roles that may be in the game or mechanics, as well as specify Day or Night start. Thanks!

[Thesp]

Games going in the Open queue right now:

Friends and Enemies (11 player day start)
PieC9

Will see play soon:

Texas Justice (daystart?)
Masons and Monks
RoleblockerC9


I'll be looking to Wikify any Open Game that runs.

[Thesp]

Going up for signups

Texas Justice Mafia
Jester Mafia

Seriously Pondering

CDB9
Lynchworthy Mafia


Vanilla Plus would need some work/tweaks/clarification to ensure balance to see play. Super-Saint Twelve Mafia is unbalanced and breakable as-is, and may not fit the criterion of Normal Game. (Re: balance, make it pseudo-C9 with variable numbers?) Election! does not meet the criterion of Normal Game, and would be best suited as a theme game. (Same goes for Shield Mafia.) Freelancer Mafia is probably best suited as a theme game, as games of decent size should include a scum "group". Guardian Vengeful would be an interesting Theme game. Sealed Deck Mafia is definitely not a Normal Game, and if run should be run as a Theme Game, as Kelly Chen noted. KaleiÐoscøpe's proposed game also is theme in nature, and not clarified enough to be nominated. I think CDB's C9 can work in some capacity, if you all hammer it out and confirm it it will see play. I'd like to see some thoughts on tweaks to Lynchworthy Mafia, especially if we can avoid an "everybody loses" ending (lynch until someone's win condition achieved?).

Thanks for all your work, guys and gals.

[Thesp]

I guess I'm not sure why my Sealed Deck Mafia isn't considered a normal game - the play is the same - the only thing different (since it doesn't have any flavor) is how roles are distributed - which happens before the game begins.

The only thing that didn't seem like it was on the normal list was the idea of "drawing a card" - which is far less complicated than some new roles are I think (especially since you can draw a card and use an ability in the same day/night cycle).

The rules may be written in a way that seems more confusing - but its really the same thing - they were just written that way so that less normal things could be incorporated later.

It's not immediately clear

how

to play. The card drawing mechanic is also intriguing, and I'd liketo see it played - in a theme queue. The night mechanics are highly unique.

[Thesp]

Arsonist Mafia
1 Arsonist (SK that kills with Fire, possibly a 50% chance of killing)
1 Firefighter (Protown, Protects pepole from Arsonist, If Arsonist killed, turns into townie)
3 Mafia (1 Godfather)
2 Cops (Possibly both Sane)
1 Doc
4 Townies

Why not turn the arsonist into a SK and Firefighter into SK Doc? Maybe give some benefits to the SK and up the power of the SK Doc (also detects SK-ness of protectee)?

Bomb Mafia
1 Bomb (Kills anyone that targets it at night)(Town)
3 Mafia
2 Cops
1 Vig
5 Townies

I like this some.

Inventor Mafia
1 Inventor (Can Invent items each night to be given to other players like a Gun,Medicine, ETC.)
3 Mafia
1 Cop
1 Doc
2 Masons
4 Townies

The Inventor makes it not-a-normal game. Might be neat theme game, though.

Double or nothing12 players
2 Mafia(Group a)
2 Mafia(Group b)
2 Vigs
2 Cops
2 Docs
2 Townies

( 2 of everything, 2 Family Mafia. One family could be replaced with two SK. )

I'm worried it focuses too much on the night game, but is doable. How about if one member of the mafia can only roleblock, and one can only kill? What if vigs are "itchy-trigger-finger vigs" (compulsory nightkills)? I do foresee claiming problems for the mafia, though, which is a problem.

Miller Double or nothing
2 mafia( 1 Godfather)(A)
2 mafia( 1 Godfather)(B)
2 Millers
3 Cops( 1 Sane, 1 Insane, 1 Either sane or insane (50-50))
1 Doc
2 Townies

(3 cops, but 4 of the reads will be wrong..)

Why not just make it DethyMafia? I would recommend cop-headstart on this one.

Serial Killer Double or Nothing
2 SK
2 Mafia
2 Vigs
2Cops
2 Docs
2 Townie

(Possibly more Vigs to counter SK?)

I don't know if there's enough town control of the deaths (I don't know if they'll have enough lynches).

Communication Double or Nothing
2 Masons
2 Siblings(Mafia)
2 Mafia
2 Docs
2 Cops
2 Townies

What are siblings in this instance? Also, town looks way too powerful.

Bombs and Veterans Double or nothing
2 Bombs( 1 is Mafia)
2 Army Veterans(One shot kill)(Must kill anyone that targets them)
2 Mafia
2 Cops
2 Vigs
2 Townies

(Mafia gets a Bomb, Town gets 7 Power roles)(Bomb can be activated at the same time Mafia send a kill, however no more than two pepole can be killed by Mafia at night)

I think there are only so many setups that can really use 2 vigs and/or 2 cops.

Night Start Double or Nothing(12)
3 Vigs
3 Mafia(1 Godfather)
3 spots Cops/Doctors(50-50 chance for each spot)
3 Townies

(I like this one, because even though its Night start, The Vigs counter everything, If they want to send in a kill...)

I'm disinclined towards the vigs here. In fact, I'm worried the excessive propensity towards vigs will rob mafia of the opportunity of excellent play near the end (especially in counter-claiming). Vigs always make counter-claiming more dicey in games, and for me, that's one of the most thrilling moments mafia has, when two people claim to have the same mutually exclusive role. (Vigs punish mafia for taking this gambit, since they can

at best

gain only half a day on the town.)

Terror Double or nothing
4 Mafia( Two are Bombs)
3 Town Bombs
2 townies
3 spots, Cop/Vig 50-50 chance

This is a lot of mafia, and a lot of emphasis on the night game.


I think Arsonist Mafia (with tweaks), Double or Nothing Mafia with balance tweaks (notably re: claiming), and the first Bomb Mafia are possibly workable.

[Thesp]

Yeah, it does sound like the best strategy for town is to No Lynch and let scum immolate themselves on the Gun Owners... way swingy.

If the town gives absolutely no clues, I think the scum's chances of winning are exactly 1/2, which is sort of nifty.

Alternatly, it might be the best stratagy for the scum to sit back and not kill until a few people have gotten lynched, at which point their odds of hitting the target go up.

Which means that there's a risk the game could go "happily ever after" right from the start.

Make lynches compulsory?

[Thesp]

I'm liking the flood of suggestions coming in - it's hard to keep up with (that's a good problem!). If you'd like one to see play (even if it's an oldie-but-goodie), can you do something to the effect of

Nominate: Blah-blah game

? Multiple nominations are welcome. Wikified setups are even better, and are even more likely to see play (as it makes my job easier).

I love speedlynch mafia. It will see play. I'd like to see a couple of comments on the final numbers for the game, if possible.

5-player Vengeful has gone to signups.

[Thesp]

nominate Doctor Mafia
3 Mafia
6 Doctors
3 Quacks (if the quacks target a player, they kill them instead of protecting them. A player will not know if they are a quack or not, and their quackery is not revealed upon death).

I like this. A lot. How about making the quack not kill their target

if their target is mafia

? (This variant of the quack was used by mith at MeMeMeet, with different numbers.) Also, nightstart/daystart?

Ban role claiming in any form and you may have a game.

This is never a good fix - it's an indication that something is seriously flawed with the setup.

How about the scum can mason kill? As in, they submit two names, and if they are mason pairs, then both die, if they aren't a mason pair, then the kill fails? Or they can ordinary kill. So, it's a prevention for each pair to claim at once.

I think you're looking at mechanics more tuned for a non-Normal game at this point, but one that's conceivable. Heck, you might make it four mafia, add a mason pair, and make it so that mafia can

only

kill by picking out a mason pair

Pick-Your-Poison C9

2 Mafia
Mafia gets to choose 1(2?) of (Cop, Doc, RB)
4(3?) Townies

Too broken? Doc+RB to powerful? Already done before?

I kind of like the idea of scum picking what they're up against, but I fear that there's a combination that may break the setup.

I like that the mafia know a little bit about what is safe to claim. I think I lean towards making this 2 power roles and 3 townies.

Perhaps give the mafia a single day kill? That gets rid of the day vigi coming out, because then he can actually get killed.

Re: nightless variant, I would want some mechanic that would prevent a "first to PM the mod gets their kill in" scenario. Perhaps if the mafia kill was delayed until the end of the day?

I'm intrigued by Simenon's Vigilante Mafia. I appreciate the elegance of it.

I don't like the faith healer in a 7p game. But a doctor instead could be iffy... Say they lynch the RB day 1. Goon kills a townie. Day 2, the watcher and doctor claim. Lynch a townie. At this point the goon can't win. He can't kill the watcher. If he kills the doctor he'll be seen. If he kills the townie, he's the only unconfirmed player D3.

It's a 9 player game, but I don't like Faith Healers at all (7 player game or no). Still, my distaste isn't justification enough to turn down the role. What if the doc protects on alternating nights? (N1, N3, N5)?

I do like the idea that mafia can't roleblock if one dies.


I'll try to get some thoughts together and pull together a list of games we'll get in the queue soon.

[Thesp]

If you really need more variety in the game, why not have a second role available for a recruited townie to become? Say, if a townie is recruited into the mafia, he has a 50% chance of becoming a roleblocker

I missed this in the discussion of Simenon C9, where the mafia recruits a player N0. How about if the mafia recruits a townie, that player becomes a Roleblocker (no 50% here)? Sure, there's still a substantial chance it will look like one of the other C9's, but I like the suspicion that would still fall on a claimed role. Let me know if you think I should run this, and I'll put it up there (or we can tweak it if it needs more work).


Doctor Mafia is being taken and renamed "Quack Mafia" (hope you don't mind!), with NightStart and Quacks will kill Docs instead of protecting them. (However, a Doctor can still cancel a Quack's kill.) Simenon, can you Wikify it when you get the chance?

[Thesp]

Fire and Ice v2?

2 Fire Mafia
2 Ice Mafia
1 Temperature normalizer (doc)
6 Normal temperature townies

If the mafia cross kill, the kill is negated. If the mafia both target the same townie, the kill is negated.

I

really

like this version. Does the town control enough lynches, though? (It might, I haven't run the numbers. Lack of crosskills makes it more important to tweak the numbers right, but I like that it doesn't take the power out of the town's hands by requiring crosskills from the mafia for balance.)

I was uncertain as to balance on the first version, and am always hesitant to run single-scum games (or games without a "group" of scum, a "mafia"), but I think the second version tweaks it and makes it work. Firm up the number of townies (or confirm it as being ideal at 6) and it'll run. Thanks, my tireless Open Game lackeys!

[Thesp]

If we're nominating own setups...

Nominate Pick Your Poison

3 Scum
2 powerroles (Cop, Doc or RB)
7 townies

Scum picks which two powerroles they'd like.

I liked my 12-player variant better.

I like this. With a nod to Kelly Chen's conern, I'd like to see it run at least once.

YogurtBandit inspired me to come up with this setup which I call Yoguraimee C9 with his blessing (and Aimee wanted credit too)

2 mafia
2 cops
1 doc
2 townies

It thwarts the original newbie setup D1 cop claim strategy by having two cops!!

This looks good and will see play as well. I would love to see four cop claims in a 7 player setup.

One thing that I notice, is that the more games you play, and the more setups you make, I personally find myself drawn towards simplicity.

I too appreciate elegance.

Yogurt-O-Rama
3 mafia That cannot communicate outside Pregame
2 masons That Can Communicate at all times
4 Vanilla

I am strongly disinclined towards mafia that cannot communicate in Open Game setups. If substantial popular opinion disagrees with me, though, I may rethink that stance.

I can see Double Day Mafia running as well. Thanks for running the numbers.

[Thesp]

Fire and Ice v2 Final

...

If both mafia target the same townie, then no one dies.
If this happens, or if the doc protects successfully, steam is said to be rising off of the players...

The first two times that Ice targets Fire

and

Fire targets Ice, the kills are negated.
If this happens, steam is said to be raising off of the players...

I don't see why any announcement must be made by the mod - in fact, I think the mod should remain silent as to why there was no kill at night. (No need to give it away!)

(shrug) I just don't see the advantage to the mod giving the town that kind of information, is all. Better if the town has to figure out for themselves what might have happened at night.

QFT.

[Thesp]

I think this setup lends itself to the goon fake claiming or countering either the doc or the cop if they claim d1 or especially d2 after a mislynch day one.

Why wouldn't they do that already?

I also don't get the appeal of Godfathers,

especially

with Mafia groups with a size smaller than 4, and even more especially when that means you have a cop who only gets a useful result on 1 player in the game.

[Thesp]

SK Mafia

3 SKs
2 Mafia
0-1-2 Doc
5-7 Townies

The SKs don't know who each other are, but collectively they have one kill per night. If a majority of them agree on who to kill, then that person will die, otherwise, a random target is picked from the three chosen by them.

If you don't agree that this is awesome, then you fail.

Randomness has no place in a nightchoice, especially in an Open Game. Also, the town looks really screwed on this one, I don't think they have enough control in this game.

Nanodethy Mafia

6 Cops (2 sane, 3 paranoid/naive, 1 insane)
3 Millers
1 One-shot NK Vig
4 Scum

Paranoid/Naive cop sanity chosen randomly.

Why the vig? Vigs for no reason are bad.

Here's the probable framework for a 12-player setup:

1 mafia recruiter
4 protown power roles, of various types
7 vanilla townies

Recruiter recruits two players during night 0, and cannot recruit thereafter. No other actions are taken night 0. If a vanilla townie is recruited, he becomes either Mafia Power Role X or Mafia Power Role Y, with a 50-50 chance for each. (If both recruits are vanilla, then one will become X and one will become Y.) That's it.

I like your idea, and think it could run well as a game. However, I'm concerned about how this game could turn into, "Who did the mafia recruit? Who are the good players in this game? Let's lynch them!" I'd be intrigued to see how such a game ran, but I suspect this may end up being central, which is sort of a shame. (C9 is actually a "recruiting" done before the game - a cop or doc might get denied to the town, and it's done randomly.)

Nominate Yogurt
3 Mafia that cant talk
2 masons that Can
1 RB
6 Vanilla

Making mafia unable to talk is unnecessary, and I don't know why it's thought of as a good idea.

Crush Nightless 6p

1 mafia godfather (vengeful-style)
1 mafia goon
1 lyncher (who is informed of his target)
3 townies (one of whom is unknowingly the lyncher's target)
Nightless.

If the target is lynched, the game is over and the lyncher wins.
If the godfather is lynched, the goon dies with him.
Death of all mafia isn't game over; town still tries to lynch the lyncher.
But a final 2 situation of lyncher+target is a town win.

I really, really like this. It seems like most people would rather see CrushA, though, so that will run.

Backstabbing Backstabbers Mafia

3 Mafia Goons (one of whom is randomly the godfather, no special powers)
1 Mafia Ursurper (no special powers)
1 Doc
7 Townies

The mafia can talk at night as normal, and the godfather sends in the kill.
The godfather is no different from any other goon, except he can only win if he is alive. (So, he's basically a mafia aligned survivor). The Ursurper can only win when the godfather is dead. (So, he's basically a mafia aligned lyncher).
The mafia do not know who the ursurper is, but know who the godfather is.

The key is here, is that the goons don't care about the ursurper's struggles, they just want to win. The godfather can send in the kill to be one of his goons, if he thinks he knows who the ursurper is, but he doesn't have to kill him, it's only the ursurper who requires the godfather's death.

Let me get this straight - you have two teams with mutually exclusive win conditions (mafia and town). Within the subset of {Mafia}, you have 2 players whose win condition is outright

harder

than the win condition of the other two. Sort of a punishment for being one of those mafia as opposed to being a regular mafia? I don't like it. (I'm nearly categorically opposed to anyone whose win condition is harder to fulfill than other members of their own team - it's an arbitrary punishment, not a fun role.)


I've seen a lot of compex setups run by, several of which have been put through to the queue and run fine. I'd like to scale back the complexity, though, and return to some more elegant games - give me some I can put in signups that can be explained in one line.

(

For example, compare:

Jester Mafia

(Open 25)[/b] - 2 Mafia, 1 Jester, 7 Townies (0/10) - Mod: Romanus[/u]

...with...

Crush Mafia (Open 33) - 1 Mafia GF, 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Lyncher, 4 Townies (1 of whom is Lynchee), DayStart* (0/7)

(* - If Mafia Godfather is killed, Goon dies as well.
If Lynchee is nightkilled, Lyncher becomes Townie.
Lyncher wins iff Lyncher is alive and Lynchee is lynched.
Mafia wins iff Lyncher has not fulfilled win condition and living mafia comprise half of the players in the game, or nothing can prevent same.
Townies win iff all the Mafia have been killed.)

We're looking for more that have the brevity of the first.)

If you're looking for something to do, I have a Wiki project I'd like to start on, but haven't gotten to yet. There are a number of Open Games that have run, that don't have wiki pages, see below. I'm also wanting to create a Category called "Open Game Setups", and tag any setup used as an Open Game with this category, so there's an easy way for people to see what's been run, in case they want to see it again. Here are the setups that haven't been Wikified:
Cop C9
Switch
Masons and Monks
Double Cop C9
Near-Vanilla
Strawberry
Roleblocker C9
Bird C9
Fire and Ice
Game threads for these games (to help figure out what they are) can be found here. If no one else can get around to it, I'll do it at some point, but if someone has free time to kill...

[Thesp]

Jester has a similar ambiguity to the lyncher I think... You need to know whether a win by them is exclusive.

Let's say it's obvious that a win by them is exclusive. Maybe we could also say it's part of the definition of a lyncher, that an NKed target means the lyncher becomes a townie (if still alive). Also that the target is a townie who doesn't know he's the target, and isn't revealed as such.

This is reaching a bit, but say we take it as obvious that if the game ends before the lyncher has fulfilled his win condition (and the target is still alive of course), he loses.

We could also expect the reader to know what a "Vengeful-style godfather" is.

Then you could describe Crush A as:

1 Vengeful-style godfather, 1 goon, 1 lyncher, 4 townies
Day start
If both mafia are dead, the game ends and the town wins.

True, though it's not clear as you've shown it that the lynchee is among the townies (which is easy enough to fix). It will also help when Crush Mafia gets wikified - Jester Mafia's wiki page helps eliminate any confusion as well, and with brevity.

[Thesp]

I thought it was clear by saying "the target is a townie" and not listing the target as a separate role.

I did wikify Crush A incidentally.

The Jester Mafia wiki entry also expects the reader to deduce that lynching the jester ends the game. It's the only sensible conclusion, but it isn't stated plainly.

Thanks for the wikification!

[Thesp]

I need a mini to put up there. Give me one.

I'm intrigued by the Traitor game also, let me know if it should run as is (2 Mafia, 1 Traitor, 9 Townies).

Do you think Dethy Mafia is too complex to run as an Open Game?

Is Rampage good to go as is? I think I need to satiate some of the public's need for a vig role.

Also, I'd like to run Hider Mafia, but am concerned about two things: (1) The 2 Trackers are really, really, good. Maybe

too

good. Show me I'm wrong or tweak it. (2) I'm concerned about breaking strategies where the hiders

plan

who they hide with in an attempt to hide with mafia to gt themselves killed, outing mafia in the process. Show me that this isn't conceivable, or find a way around it (allow mafia to disable killing those who visit at night?).

[Thesp]

Guys, let's go for quality over quantity. I'd much rather see a few setups with high quality/playability than a lot which are harder to ascertain the quality thereof. It will help people comment and construct as well.

Vanillia games are hard for the town; this one is harder. The town needs something extra; either a good power role (like 1 cop), two weaker power roles (say, 1 doc and 1 vig), or several extra townies.

How about 1 cop, and the Traitor comes up as town?

Medical Mafia

2 Goons
1 "Normal" Doctor
1 Weak Doctor (dies if protects Mafia)
1 CPR Doctor (kills the target if they aren't facing a kill)
1 Paranoid Doctor (protects and role-blocks their target)
1 Quack Doctor (kills target instead of protecting them)
1 Naive Doctor (doesn't actually protect)
1 Nurse
1 Faith Healer (50% chance of protection)

Nurse replaces the first doctor that dies (Faith Healer not included).

I'm intrigued by this, while I hate Faith Healers. Make the FH protect on odd or even nights, but don't tell them which? It preserves the intent of the role while taking out the possibility that the game is decided at the end on a die roll. Also, DS/NS? (Daystart/Nightstart)

@Thesp - wrt Albert's vig+masons setup. I want to ask whether the vig really should be suicidal. I think it's more "normal" and probably more balanced without that.

A dayvig that's used their power is a confirmed townie - making them suicidal ups the ante for them and prevents the mafia from having to kill them, in some real sense. If this means another townie or something needs to be added for balance, that's fine.

Nominate: any simple and balanced large open setup

I too would like to see one of these.

I do think it would be good if lovers replaced masons in open setups. (That is, they would just be mutually confirmed masons who die immediately when the other does.) That would be more interesting and take a bit more skill to play...

I've used a Barn/Hull combo in the past - a pair that are masons, but the Hull dies if the Barn is killed (but if the Hull is killed, the Barn is not auto-killed). I could see either work in the right scenario.

Sour-Apple Mafia 2

3 Goons
3 Vigs
6 Townies

Night Start!

Day Start

We have a game running which has 3 Goons, 3 Masons, and 5 Townies. It might be a bit swayed towards the mafia, but is pretty close on balance. I'm not sure this is at all.

Nominate Basic 16

4 mafia goons
1 cop
1 doctor
10 townies

What's to stop the "Cop claims D1 and we no-lynch until the Doc is found strategy"? (Please don't say C9. )

(On that note, I'm insanely jealous of LoudmouthLee's "New C9" game - I think it's awesome.)

2 Independent Jesters (with one shot bulletproof each, knows the other's identity, wins solo)

What's to stop one from claiming the other's identity, if they're about to get lynched? I don't see how that works.

[Thesp]

Tiny Love

2 goons
1 GF - investigation immune
3 townies
1 lover

The goons don't know who the GF is.
If the GF and lover are the last remaining players, they win.
If the GF dies, the lover dies.
If the lover dies, the GF becomes regular scum and loses investigation-immunity.
The GF may not kill his goons even if the lover is alive; nor may he kill the lover.
Day start.
The lover must be dead for the mafia to win.

The reason the lover dies is because otherwise the lover can claim and become a townie when the GF is lynched.
The GF has 2 strategies: get the lover lynched and just go on, or bus his partners and get everyone killed.
The first strategy is bad because the lover can claim if they feel they'll be lynched if they don't, and the GF will be lynched.

Since the GF has multiple win conditions, I don't really know of a way to test this for balance, but the choice between a 2-4, a 1-2-4, and a 2-2-3 should be pretty balanced. First is in town's favor, second is in lover's favor, third is in scum's favor.

The GF has a lot of control over which of these states the game is in at the end of day 1, but the fact that the scum and/or lover can get him killed pretty easily take some control away.

This is waaaaaaay too complex, I think, for an Open Game.

Dethy and Big Love going up now. Picking Simplicity up after that (though clarify whether or not cop can detect SK, I think they shouldn't, but that's just me).

EDIT: Also, can someonw wikify Big Love and Picking Simplicity? Thanks!

[Thesp]

This thread is for discussing potential setups and nominating them for the Queue thread.

Please use this thread for discussing Open Games only. There are other threads available for discussing other setups. Thanks.

[Thesp]

Thesp - you want me out, too? Just wondering, since it is open, but probably not well suited to the open queue.

An open setup isn't necessarily an Open Game. I'll split the topic off for you when I get the mod powers to do so.

[Thesp]

I will look over this more, but I wanted to say - two of Kelly Chen's creations, Crush Nightless and Assassin in the Palace were some of the most compelling games at Thespival. (Crush Nightless will run in the Open Queue tomorrow.) I'll look over the thread tomorrow for ideas and what else runs.

[Thesp]

Crime Family

An italian mob family splits into two factions after the godfather dies. Both want each other dead, but have to deal with the pesky citizens of the town.

3 mafia from family A
3 mafia from family B
10 townies
1 vig

Here's the catch: The mafia all know each other. Family A knows every member of family B and vice versa. Of course, the mafia are all bulletproof to eachother.

Setups where one player knows each member of a scum team (while not actually

being

a member of that scum team and sharing their win condition) are

categorically

bad.

KC Mafia

2 Mafia A
2 Mafia B
2 Mafia C
2 Mafia D
2 Townies
1 Cop
1 Doctor

Mafia Groups A and B can kill on Odd Nights.

Mafia Groups C and D can kill on Even Nights.

The town doesn't have enough control over its own destiny. The town could lose this game fairly easily without being able to do anything about it.

Pick-Your-Poison Large Version

2 x-person scumgroups
2 town powerroles (Cop, Doc, RB)
x townies

The difference from the 12p version is that each scum-group gets to pick a powerrole for the town and a powerrole for the other scum-group.

Should there be more pro-town powerroles? How many townies? How many scum?

I like this idea. Any objections to running it in the queue as 12 player, with 2 mafia per side? Also, can mafia use their role and perform the kill? And how to roleblockers affect each other? (i.e. If Roleblocker A -> Roleblocker B -> Cop, does Cop get result?)

[Thesp]

Open Countdown is cute, and I'd love to see it run as a mini-theme game. (I'm hesitant to call any game which relies on real-time to be "Normal", which includes things like daykills, etc.)

Medical Mafia is intriguing, and I'm thinking about running it. Objections or balance thoughts?

I don't like it. Mafia already lose some advantage after losing a member, you're just tipping the scales entirely in the town's favor.

Well, what if the situation were reversed?

Disabler Mafia v2

3 Mafia
8 Vanilla Townies
1 Disabler

The mafia cannot NK until the disabler is lynched.

Again, I'm not sure about numbers...

I'd be intrigued by this

if

the Disabler doesn't know that they are the Disabler,

and

the Mafia knows who the Disabler is

. What do y'all think?

Twofold Mafia

2 Mafia A
2 Mafia B
1 Mafia A Cop
1 Mafia B Cop
1 Doctor
5 Townies

This is estimated - I run it face-to-face pretty often. Having an "A Doc" and "B Doc" can be fun.

I'll run this soon, if there are no objections. I don't mind the doctor there, though if the town seems overpowered, make them one-shot? Also, what about making it so the cop doesn't know which team they detect? (It gives scum an excellent chance to claim here.)

I'm intrigued by the Dark Knight setup. What about making the DK only immune to first NK?

Are we ever going to see Quicklynch Nightless Vanilla? I was really hoping to at least get a yes-or-no decision on it.

Quicklynch Nightless Vanilla

3 Mafia
9 Townies

-Nightless
-Votes to lynch=number of mafia alive+1

Yes.

New game in signups tomorrow - tell me which one.

[Thesp]

Body Snatchers Mafia

Open Setup, Closed Reveal

3 Goons
1 Cop
1 Doc
1 Back-up Cop (becomes the Cop if the Cop dies)
6 Townies

Night Start

Cop claim D1 is breaking, I think,

especially

with the Back-up Cop. Even on a counterclaim, ideal play is no-lynch D1, and the mafia have to guess at whether or not they've killed the doctor. Even on competing cop claims D1, if the doc guesses wrong, the Back-up Cop claims next to repeat the process. If they succeed in killing correctly both times, you've got a game with 1 Doc, 5 Townies, 1 Mafia,

and

extra information.

Unless you can show me how I'm wrong here. Even with Nightstart, which

might

tilt things towards the mafia, it's just not very good. (And even then, you're pinning the setup's balance to a nightkill whim, which is always a bit uncomfortable.)

[Thesp]

I thought the Closed Reveal would place into serious question any claim of role or investigation.

Would a Godfather balance it out? Or would it still be too unbalanced?

My idea was that everyone

knows

that doc protecting cop breaks, but no townie will ever know if a claimed cop or doc is really a cop or doc even if they are dead.

Yes, but you alleviate that possibilty by claiming Cop-only on D1 unprovoked. It's

possible

that the mafia killed the cop on D1, and whomever is claiming is lying, but highly unlikely, especially since the N0 kill is just as random (which means there's only a 1/3 shot the random N0 nightkill hit anyone, and for a small chunk of that, the doc might protect). If you've got your heart set on no-reveal, you're probably looking for a C9-type setup where there might or might not be certain roles in the game.

[Thesp]

1 Insane Cop (random investigation results, if the same person is investigated twice the Insane Cop will get the same result)

For the record, any role with a

random outcome

immediately qualifies the game that said role is in as a non-Open Game.[/list mod]

Why not make this cop Naive? Also, why bother including the Doctor?

[Thesp]

Since the current versions have ended, I'll nominate putting another C9+2 and another Friends and Enemies into the Open Queue.

Done and done.

[Thesp]

Thesp's Favorite

4 Mafia Goons
1 Doctor
1 Nurse
1 Backup Nurse
1 Backup-Backup Nurse
4 Townies

Day Start

You forgot the cop. Doctors (and backups) are more okay if there are no other "must kill" roles in the game.

[Thesp]

I'll try to get a new game or two up this week.

[Thesp]

I will give some more attention to this thread this weekend, hopefully.

[Thesp]

I need to look over these setups sometime soon. I've seen a lot that aren't anywhere near "Open Game" standards, with the mild exception that the setup is revealed. Remember, a revealed setup is not the only standard for Open Games.

[Thesp]

But this would be a open game, would it not? While I like the prospect of the chief, I dont feel that it would force it to be themed. If the players know exactly what is going on with the roles, as they would if it was Open, it could happen.

An Open Game has two features - it is a Normal Game with an Open Setup. Exceptions to these two standards (particularly, to the Normal standard) should be infrequent and for good reason. (Also, "because this setup is cool" is not good reason.) There have been a number of very good setups that I would like to see run and/or play in, but would not put in the Open Game queue. (There are a few I wish I hadn't put in the Open Game queue because I think it probably ought to be more restrictive, and likely wouldn't make it through the second time.)

I'm going back about two months to give some quick thoughts. Yaw's Split Open mafia is a neat idea, but I think the role switcher/re-opener/night communicator concepts are too complex for OG status. NabakovNabakov's setups for Capture the Flag Mafia and Electoral College Mafia are not at all Normal status. xyzzy's Mountain Mafia has an unworkable win condition for mafia. Adel's Donner Party Mafia is really neat, but doesn't fall in OG status. Patrick's Target Mafia is also a neat idea - not sure on Normal status, though it is easy to explain. I think the idea has potential, but in some altered form. I

love

C9++, but I'm concerned that new mods will cry if they get the setup, and I think most mods who run through the OG queue are newbie mods (and I don't want ruined OG's by mods not understanding the setup). Guardian's SEAG Mafia is alright, I guess - I'm not seeing anyone wowed by it. It could run, though, if I'm incorrect. xyzzy's Lovers Mafia is cute if not nightless (add more townies?), though I kind of want to see how Big Love turns out to test the lovers mechanic first. Ether's Lovely Mafia is alright, though the Adapter in Scumpower Mafia makes that one a little too complex for an OG (though I like the idea). ShadowLurker's Setup B is good and could see play, though Setup A is trash (see my essay on Nurse roles as to why this is). Somestangeflea's An Open Game with Roles Which Affect Voting is clearly outside of OG status, as it's nowhere near a Normal Game (and voteless roles are unequivocally terrible). I don't get Draux's Scumdar Malfunction, as well as most other setups involving an overly large number of Millers, designed to make cop investigations worthless. They affect play more than expected by the endgame. I guess it's okay (and I prefer Adel's version for its elegance), and I suppose I can't like every game. IH's Bus Driver Mafia suffers from a similar flaw as C9++, in that it's not immediately clear to newbies how to run the game (especially nightchoices on this one). Primate's Something Something Mafia needs some balance testing before I consider it. With apologies to Sir Tornado, No Press Mafia suffers significant flaws (including balance), and there's no compelling reason to deny scum the opportunity to talk. (I'm going to do a mini-essay on that someday - the importance of scum conversation in game design.) shaft.ed's Nightshift Mafia is clearly outside the OG scope. Kelly Chen's nameless setup is a little unclear on some points (Devil's alignment? Lyncher's win condition mutually exclusive?). VamapnezeHunter's Deathly Mafia needs to be reviewed for balance before being considered, and I'm not wild about 2 mafia kills even still. I share Kelly Chen's concerns about Raffles' Mafia: Double Agent setup, though I like the concept very very much. I'm still trying to wrap my head around Max's Unlynchee Mafia. I like IH's SuperKill Mafia, pondering whether it's within OG scope. PookyTheMagicalBear's Masons and Mafia is outside the OG scope by a lot, as is Trojan Horse's Screwy C9 Mafia. I like xyzzy's(?) Jeep Classic+++ a lot, don't know on balance. IH's Shell-Shocked Mafia is cute - I just wish there were a more succinct way of explaining the shellshocked medic. mith's C9 with a slice of Pie looks really good, too. JDodge's Mini Love looks good, in fact I think I like it better than the earlier-referenced Lovers Mafia. VampanezeHunter's Carry on Mafia! is unplayable from the GF's perspective, and too swingy given the low townie ratio. Adel's Fast Street Mafia is neat, and is probably well suited to a theme game. (Time-based roles/abilities are best suited for theme games, I think.) It's otherwise fine. xyzzy's Uncle C9 is too potentially unbalanced to consider. Kaleidoscope's Confusing Bad Idea is already appropriately labeled as a theme game, it's just in the wrong thread. Adel's Violent Mafia feels really swingy - does the town have enough control over this game? Also, re: Adel's Paranoid Scum Mafia (in either form), I don't know if the town controls enough of the game to be viable. I may be wrong. Thyroidectomy's Negative Pick Your Poison is alright, I suppose - though I don't like the hamstringing of the doctor or cop. Tarhalindur's Mason's Dilemma gives zero incentive to mass-claiming - I don't think that's a good thing. JDodge's Formula Mafia seems fine to me. Sammich's three setups aren't appealing to me, but they fall in the OG scope. I don't

get

shaft.ed's Hide and Seeker Mafia. JDodge's Fishy Mafia made me laugh so hard, that if I was somehow biologically able to breastfeed, milk would have snorted out of my nose.

I'll be looking to put up setups that have been nominated by at least two people who didn't create them, and that fit the OG scope. The one that jumped out at me was Texas Justice Mafia, re-nominate anything you think I might have missed (or that we should run).

Hope that helps!

[Thesp]

I feel like I should know this, but what's AITP?

I'll try to get three in signups tonight.

[Thesp]

Also Thesp, Superkill is similar to switch mafia, and it was run as an OG.

I'm not sure Switch Mafia

should

have been run as an OG. I do think SuperKill is more elegant, though. If people nominate it, and it gets a good, easy-to-read, simple Wiki page I can link to, it will likely run in the queue.

That said, for the sake of argument, how is a night communicator too complex for OG status? It's just a mason group, and those are in line with normal games...

I did not think of "Night Communicator"="Mason". That is indeed very "Normal".

I really, really don't like the addition of the random cop - it is far more of a hinderance than a help here. Furthermore, it will ruin the results of the real cop.

Agreed -

Random Cops have no place in the game of mafia

, IMHAAO. There are few things I will be tyrannical about, and this is one of them - a random cop will never see play in an OG.

If the problem is in randomizing the setup, I could volunteer to do that. I think Mith already no'ed the setup as an open game though, noting correctly that play would be more like a closed mini normal than like a typical open.

Let me know if you run this in any queue - I'd be interested in playing it.



Sifting through to see which setups had recently been nominated by anyone who had not created the setup, this is what I had come up with (grouped by setup):

Nominate Texas Justice

Second Texas Justice
THIRD TEXAS JUSTICE

NOMINATE SMALLTOWN

Second Smalltown
Third Smalltown

Nominate Near-Vanilla

Second: Near vanilla

nominate: Basic 12 player

Second: Basic Twelve Player

Nominate Random C9

Second Random C9

nominate: vanilla (2:10)

Nominate: 2:10 Vanilla
Nominate Vigilante Mafia 2 - 3 Goons,1 Vigilante,8 Townies,Day start
nominate Mini Love
Nominate AITP
Nominate IH's Superkill Mafia
Nominate Nebraska Justice
nominate vengeful
Nominate 7-player Vengeful
(nominate) mafia and werewolves


The Texas Justice seems to be popular! I'll get that going right now, along with Near Vanilla, and Basic 12 Player (I will overstep my bounds in forcing this game to have the NoNoLynch Daystart feature.) Vanilla 2:10 will go in signups after that.

I will consider running Smalltown, but what setup? The concept fits for OG (IMHAAO), but what roles will be there?

There ought to be a list of C9 setups somewhere - if someone could list them (and wiki links) that'd be awesome, otherwise I'll dig them up later and it'll go into the queue after a filled game or two.

[Thesp]

not really open, but:

Ringmaker mafia: have a Ringmaker and maybe some hobbits, dwarves, elves, ring wraiths, gollum as SK. Ringmaker hands out sets of 9/7/3/1 rings. Each set of rings gives a kill or other power, target decided by plurality vote of the owners. Have some mechanism to destroy rings, hand them over to others, have using them be dangerous, etc etc.

I'd like to guide you to this thread.

[Thesp]

Mafia games nominated, seconded, and to be queued:

*Monks and Masons
*Quack Mafia (DayStart)
*Pie E7
*Vengeful
*Daytalk 10 (3 Mafia, 7 Townies)

[Thesp]

Mountainous multiball?

Two groups of 2 scum each
8 VT

Should it be 10:2:2?

[Thesp]

You're using that principle from the other thread?

Eh. I think our collective knowledge needs to trump that rule of thumb.

In other words I don't think 2:2:10 is better.

I was indeed. I'm pondering if the town needs more lynches to control its own destiny.

[Thesp]

Going in queue now

Vengeful Mafia
Strawberry Mafia
Friends and Enemies 2.0

Nominated, not yet seconded

Vigilante Mafia 2 - 3 Goons,1 Vigilante,8 Townies,Day start
Mini Love
AITP
IH's Superkill Mafia
Nebraska Justice
7-player Vengeful
mafia and werewolves
Too Much Scum
Picking Simplicity
Roleblocker C9
C9++
Large Vanilla with a dash of Koolaid (4 Mafia, 1 odd-nking, nonnightkillable SK, 15 townies)
C/9ths (2 scum, 1/9ths chance that each player will be cop or doc, 10-# power roles townies)
Jester Mafia
Mafia of the Lost
Dethy/Dethy+1


I'm fond of Large Vanilla with a dash of Koolaid and C/9ths, and will run them if other things don't get seconded.

I really, really like Cromwell I Mafia - I'm not sure if it should be an Open Game. Let me know if it runs, I want to play in it.

[Thesp]

Nominate Basic 12 Player (with NoNoLynch)

[Thesp]

Speed mechanics don't really fit with Normal, I think. Roles with multiple alignments

definitely

aren't Normal.

Ooba 8

2 Mafia
1 Cop
1 Night Vig
4 Townies

I do think it's kind of sad that a person must specify a

Night

Vig in an Open Game Setup.

No reveal setups are also distinctly non-normal, barring some extremely special circumstance I don't foresee.

Going to be run (first three going in the queue now):

Mini Love

(Open 65)[/b] - 2 Mafia, 1 Treacherous Lover, 3 Lovers, 1 Doc, 5 Townies, Daystart (0/12) - Mod: [/u]

Quack Multiball

(Open 66)[/b] - 2 Mafia, 2 Werewolves, 2 Insane Quacks (kill pro-town players), 6 Doctors (0/12) - Mod: [/u]

Two of Four (a7)

(Open 67)[/b] - 2 Mafia, 3 Townies, 2 distinct of (Cop/Doc/RB/Miller), Daystart (0/7) - Mod: [/u]

Two of Four (b7)

(Open 68)[/b] - 2 Mafia, 3 Townies, 2 distinct of (Cop/Doc/RB/Townie), Daystart (0/7) - Mod: [/u]

Two of Four (a9)

(Open 69)[/b] - 2 Mafia, 3 Townies, 2 distinct of (Cop/Doc/RB/Miller), Daystart (0/9) - Mod: [/u]

Two of Four (b9)

(Open 70)[/b] - 2 Mafia, 3 Townies, 2 distinct of (Cop/Doc/RB/Townie), Daystart (0/9) - Mod: [/u]

Jester Mafia

(Open 71)[/b] - 2 Mafia, 1 Jester, 8 Townies (0/11) - Mod: [/u]

Mountainous Multiball

(Open 72)[/b] - 2 Mafia, 2 Werewolves, 8 Townies (0/12) - Mod: [/u]

Assassin in the Palace

(Open 73)[/b] - 1 Assassin, 1 King, 7 Guards, Nightless* (0/9) - Mod: [/u]

C/9ths

(Open 74)[/b] - 2 Mafia, 10 players each with 1/18ths chance of being Cop, 1/18ths chance of Doc, 8/9ths of Townie (0/12) - Mod: [/u]

[Thesp]

Opens 69 and 70 are meant to be 9-player, is that right?

Fixed, thanks!

I'm intrigued to see what comes of C/9ths - I know there's that ever-so-slight possibility that all town roles are cops, but it's unlikeliness makes it more appreciable. (And if it did genuinely happen, the game would be mercifully brief, at the least!)

[Thesp]

not mafia

1 sk
5 townies

This made me laugh a lot.

Friends, Friends and Enemies
2xMasons A
2xMasons B
4xMafia Goons
4/6xTownies

I like this, but I think the numbers are wrong. Heck, I'd like to see a Large game with 2 mason groups, a mafia group, a werewolf group, and townies. What would the ideal numbers on that be?

X Mafia
X Mason-Cops(Collectively have one investigation, guranteed innocence)
Y Townies

Mafia win if all cops are dead.

I was thinking a 2-2-5 distribution for a small game, maybe 3-3-7 for a medium and 4-4-9 for large.

I also like this - the 3-3-7 group looks good to me, what do you all think?

Can someone refresh my mind as to what F11 is?

Needs more nominated setups, new or old.

[Thesp]

There's some good stuff in here, keep it up!

[Thesp]

X Mafia
X Mason-Cops(Collectively have one investigation, guranteed innocence)
Y Townies

Mafia win if all cops are dead.

I was thinking a 2-2-5 distribution for a small game, maybe 3-3-7 for a medium and 4-4-9 for large.

I also like this - the 3-3-7 group looks good to me, what do you all think?

3-3-5 seems mroe balanced to me.
The mason/cops are all confirmed innocent, as is each townie they investigate.

Incidentally, investigating an innocent is

better

for the masons here, as they add another to their fold. On further thought, though, adding the "Mafia wins if all cops are dead" makes it not normal enough, I think, though I think it's crucial for the game. I think it'd be a great theme game if anyone runs it, let me know and I'll likely /in if I have time.

Basically in this game you will know if scum or townie is lynched, but roles will not be revealed to anyone, but the City records clerk
City Records Clerk
The City Records Clerk is told the specific role of any Townsperson killed during the game.

No-reveal games are explicitly non-Normal.

Reverse Mafia Nightless (this is obviously borderline on how far open games can go, so opinions would be good)
4 Mafia
8 Townies
The extended rules for this game (ignore the night stuff, obviously) can be found here

It's quite a bit past the "Normal" threshold, even if it is a spiffy idea.

I like the Kingmaker Ideas (Kingmaker Mini in particular seems workable and simple), I'm just not sure how much that pushes the line of Normal. The Medix concepts are also really good, I'm just pondering that Normal line with them as well.

Unnamed:

2 sub- games of

2 Scum
10 Town

are run simultaneously. Each player in each game secretly informs the mod of who they believe are scum in the other game (2 names if 2 scum are alive, 1 if one is). If a player is scum, all players who had that player named get 1 point (unannounced). At the end of both games, the team who won their game and had the highest average point value wins the game. All days and nights end simultaneously.

Possibly other bets could be introduced. Dunno if this falls too far outside the boundaries of open though.

I'm quite sure you were looking for this thread, from the moment you said "sub-game".

[Thesp]

I'll try to do a big review of the thread this weekend to hit everything, but I'll get some stuff up now - we'll get Jester Mafia and Fire and Ice Mafia (with a few more townies) up, and Polygamist Mafia will be soon behind.

[Thesp]

People seem to enjoy the Lovers mechanic!

Lover Multiball and Baby Too Much Scum are going in now, to be followed by runs of the ever-popular Polygamists Mafia and Assassins in the Palace. Then we'll give those last two setups a rest for a while.

[Thesp]

useful setup stuff

I think I love you. <3

2 mafia
vs.
9 vanilla townies (initially)
Day Start

Mafia selects a townie pregame to be the unnightkillable, unendgameable Chosen One. It isn't alerted to its identity, and has to be lynched before the end of the game for the mafia to win. (Town wins as soon as the chosen one is the only town player still alive--that is, even in a 1:2 endgame where it's outnumbered by the mafia. However, the mafia still has a chance at 2:2.)

A mafia/lyncher hybrid, basically.

I really like this one. I think it teeters too far on the non-Normal side of things, but I'd like to see it run - let me know if ever you run it.

Spies and Vigs is so very, very not Normal! =P Recruiting will almost certainly mean the game won't fit Open Game qualifications.

I could see a Double Night Mafia, but I am definitely against it being a vanilla game...

I would be intrigued to see this work.

I really like what Gun Show Mafia is trying to do, and I'd like to see it work somehow. I'm trying to imagine how it can be simple enough to work as an Open Game.