Open 455 - Tit for Tat - OVER

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hi, I'm Magnaofillusion your upgrade for CombatEqualibrium or whatever the hell that slot's name was.

I'll be reading up shortly ... stay on the edge of your seat in anticipation.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Given that Disturbed has been the main wagon pretty much since Page 1 I think I'm going to go with "MoI's First Law" on reading Newbs / VIs so I'm not likely to be voting him any time soon.

Congrats for conveniently choosing another target.

Elaborate exactly what you mean by this.

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Second, you have no reason to assume that it was a scum "gambit" at all.

And the counter-point question is – why should we assume said self-vote RVS ender came from Town either?

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VOTE: Disturbed

Wagons are good.

Oh wow you're right. I just reread the thread. I feel like I shouldn't try to do mafia stuff while I'm exhausted...

UNVOTE:

I'll start making some real contributions tomorrow, after I sleep. : P

So you unvoted after people called you on trying to keep wagoning when RVS is over. Yet you don’t actually comment on the game and just slide in some more “I was tired” fluff?

VOTE: numberQ

Post 132 doesn’t give me any reason to change my read on you.

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Actually read the game now. I'm content with my vote at this hour. No clue what Klick's meta is but I'm uncomfortable with people playing town leader like he is. Seems fake

Please provide me with your Mafia experience levels (both here and elsewhere).

[MagnaofIllusion]

In going over the thread one more time last Night I notice that no-one has discussed proper claiming procedures for Town. So here is what you should be doing if you are Town …

1. If you are Town and a VT never, EVER claim anything but VT. If you get to the point of L-1 where you need to claim fake-claiming to survive is the worst possible play as it will quite likely result in a mislynch and death of a Town Power-role.
2. If you are a non-Vig Town Power-role you should ALWAYS counter-claim scum. The job of Town Power-Roles is to catch scum. By forcing a 1 v 1 with fake-claiming Scum you guarantee that 1 scum is killed (either that day or the next worst case).
3. If you are the Town Vig never counter-claim a scum fake-claiming Vig … just shoot them. The only exception to this is if scum have managed to activate their Jailkeeper in which case you have to use judgement as to whether it is best to get the lynch immediately versus the odds that the scum Fake-claiming is the Jailkeeper (who generally can’t target themselves although the role PMs don’t explicitly close that possibility).

Any questions about these simple rules? I hope not but don’t be afraid to voice them if you are.

MOD – May Jailkeepers self-target in this game and protect themselves from Nightkill?

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@LordM

– given your thoughts on HerrR’s “idling his vote” in Post 170 what do you think about Distrubed?

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I followed KKB's Large Normal game that he recently modded. Kondi fake claimed dayvig page one so the other dayvig would claim and then there was two. Pretty entertaining game and a ballsy move.

I meant to follow-up on this …. so your grand knowledge of kondi meta is a single game? What conclusions are you drawing from his self-vote again?

Actually MoI makes a good point with NumberQ.

VOTE: NumberQ

Generic town reads, generic awkward feeling from CD, generic vote on the most popular target, etc.

All of those features you agree are scummy existed before I replaced in? Why did it take me explicitly pointing them out for you to vote?

Disturbed is someone I will hesitantly be up for lynching. Something about him is manufactured but I have a gut town on him so I'm hesitant to go against that.

Explain how you get a gut-Town read on him when the one thing that you say effectively about him (that his posts seem manufactured) would give a gut-scum read IMO.

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@MoI: You shouldn't. He was making an assumption based on absolutely nothing.

Well we agree then. That said – self-voting is still pretty Anti-Town in general and I’m not sure why all the “Voting someone for self-voting is obv-scum” sentiment came from. Logically it is something I certainly can see an inexperienced Town player (inexperience Scum also, but that simply means it is a Null tell) making.

I'll vote Nekoko when I catch up on this game.

Why exactly would you say you will be voting her if you aren’t caught up? Because you didn’t vote her before …. so ....

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@ MagnaofIllusion:

What do you think about Nekoko?

Don’t like her. The initial “here’s a PBP that basically allows me to wagon the leading vote getter” struck me as scummy at a gut level.

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Your town reads are people who agree with you while your scum reads are people who disagree.

Why are you presenting this as a scum-tell when it is basic human psychology? Distrubed-Town who is being wagonned very early should easily think those who correctly read him as Town are likely Town and those who hold opinions opposite of his are more likely to be scum since they do not have the same mindset as he does (and Town-him knows his own alignment)?

Pinpointed my weird vibe from Cheery.

His posts 102 and 105 were extremely vague, and amounted to "I think this person is this alignment because." Which is a fairly scummy thing to do, saying you're suspicious of people but not giving any real reasons so as to not accidentally contradict yourself later.

@EVERYONE

– I’d like you to consider the above and then read Post 132 and weigh in on how that post synchs with this one.

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People sheep me because I am right

Really? Because I’ve never seen either

A. People sheep you, or
B. You be dead-solid correct on scum-reads

in any game we have in common ...

I think you misunderstood here, I'm not calling you out on making sure people know your reads, but you seem to want to know what people's reads are on your scumreads.

Um, what? You are calling out LordM for that? That’s scum-hunting 101 and I have issues with you claiming it is scummy.

Would like a complete reads list from MoI.

Good to know. Maybe if you behave nicely the rest of the year Santa will bring it for you.

Yes, this is sarcasm.

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1) Klick self-voted so Cheery Dog voted him. Disturbed_One quickly voted alongside Cheery Dog.
2) Disturbed_One unvoted and changed his target to Venrob who still randomly voted as if nothing yet happened.
(This what made Disturbed_One the most suspicious as if he defended his action I would think differently.
It's like he just wants to appease the crowd)
3) Disturbed_One voted combinatorialEnigma. If you read his post in Post #100,
it seems that if HerrRudi was did not vote combinatorialEnigma, he wouldn't ISO and then eventually vote him.
4) Disturbed_One voted for me. The way I see it, he just found an ally in voting one of the people who voted him.

1. Frankly this is bad. Your Post 75 says that Cherry Dog is Town for helping to end RVS at post 9 yet Distrubed is scum for also voting Klick two posts later. It looks like you are arbitrarily splitting hairs to justify your vote on Distrubed over Cherry (which is opportunistic since he was the leading vote-getter)>
2. Also in 75 you explicitly say you understand he claimed to be inexperienced. This is much more likely to come from a New player who thought something was scummy and voted on it and subsequently backed off when multiple other players attacked him for it. So using this as a scum-tell I find suspect.
3. So my question to you is – what is your HerrR read right now?
4. Voting you isn’t a scum-tell. And it contradicts what you said in point 3 in Post 180 – you say you suspect people for voting you for the wrong reasons. Why couldn’t Distrubed be Town who thought your vote on him was for the wrong reasons and eventually decided to vote you?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI: I'm in a situation where I can't make a big post, but I think we should take role claims and CCs circumstantially.

Well when you get time make your case. Because there is no room for disagreement. I'm not dealing with "Teehee, I fake-claimed as VT because I wanted to survive" crap, among other things. That doesn't belong outside of Road to Rome.

[MagnaofIllusion]

No, the fakeclaiming is not going to happen. I'm talkin about what PRs do when scum fakeclaims them, etc.

Well you still need to make your case. Because rules 2 and 3 are the optimal Pro-Town play in an open set-up.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also, getting a town vibe from Klick for discussing fakeclaim procedures.

Post #185 is glorious and I have a hard time believing scum could pull that off. Sure, MoI can also be town.

Giving anyone Town cred for a discussion of what is essentially Good Play as opposed to actually related to hunting scum is a bad, bad idea. Scum can easily purpose plans or provide information that are Pro-Town but don’t aid in actually finding scum directly.

So getting a Town read on me for 185 if it is predicated on my 3 Points regarding claims is stupid. If it is based on the rest of the post's actual scum-hunting that's valid.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be LA starting today at 4:45pm until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

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MoI if we're ever going to work together in this game you're going to need to stop being a self-righteous prick. Last game I played with you was terrible, this game will be better.

Om, I’m gonna lay some reality downfor you – if you want to roll with a “I’m the Best” attitude in a game expect to get called on it if your past performance doesn’t line up quite well with that stance. I’m sorry if that hurts your feelings but reality isn’t required to be nice.

Now back to your point on “working with you” – would you characterize that I’m not giving you sufficient information to help you understand where you my suspicions lie and how I formed them?

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In other words, your suggestion was fairly low-risk. Everything you have said about the subject is an obvious truth, so stating it is neither here nor there. But Klick challenging something like that is a bit of a gutsy move, which scum in general would try to steer away from risky suggestions.

I agree with the first part of this. Let me ask you … what is his Town motivation to argue against ‘obviouis truth’?

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My thoughts on his previous posts were of course affected by his later posts,
that after he was pressured, he unvoted.

Still waiting to see an explanation of how this is obvious scum behavior that can’t be equally attributed to Newb Town.

Klick already commented in the previous post to check first his meta

So what? Frankly I took a look at Kondi / Klick meta and don’t see an significant reason to believe it could not be Klick Scum behavior. Why is someone saying “Look at my meta” meaningful in any way to why someone who likely has not ever played with said player not ‘taking it into account’ when making an early game vote?

Right now I don't know what to think of him but somehow my gut feel is scummy.
Maybe it's because he was suspecting Disturbed_One like he feels Disturbed_One is
buddying people and his posts look manufactured but for some reason he still won't
admit he's scummy (or his weird gut tells him that).

So you’ve managed to establish a nice fence-sat position while giving yourself an out to vote him (gut scum read you can’t really explain) if momentum goes that way. Noted, thanks.

So he contradicted himself?

I’m actually asking for your opinion on it. So do you find it scummy?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Your posts are too long for me to keep interest in which is why I asked for a reads list since they're way more compact.

This is a you problem not a me problem. Don't expect me to jump through hoops for you because you claim to have a short attention span.

I think it should be clear my suspects lie in numberQ, Nek, and HerrR. Klick is also on my radar. Beyond that I'm not doing a summary just to satisfy you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, my vote isn't moving of Q's slot today ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

After reviewing MoI's claim ideals, the only problem I see with that style may be a fake-JK claim where we haven't got rid of the scum-backup JK yet, which would mean we would be losing a PR and giving one to the scum team which could stop our other PR(s) from working, but otherwsie I am in agreeance with how any claims should be made.

The only players who should be fake-claiming Jailkeeper are scum. As such potentially trading the JK (if the scum is lynched and he doesn't manage to stop the kill from dead scum's partners) for a guaranteed scum lynch is a proper exchange.

This also minimizes the chances that a Town Jailkeeper gets shot by the Vig accidently if scum fake-claims JK. The Vig shouldn't shoot an un-countered JK at Night. Thus the Town JK not counter-claiming the fake-claiming scum also increases the risk of him dying anyway and also forgoes a guaranteed scum lynch. That's not smart play in an open set-up.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Dear god ... the amount of whining over reading in a WRITTEN FORUM BASED GAME I am seeing is almost trigging a rage response from me.

Seriously. Fucking grow up. Reading isn't a hardship. If you can't handle reading in a game designed to have large amounts of information exchanged find a better suited hobby. I sometimes wonder how people function in our society with such a minimal interest in literacy.

The next instance of "reading walls is hard" is probably going to send me over to Fate style Policy lynch CAPSRAGE on the person involved. I don't want that. Nobody wants that.

[MagnaofIllusion]

L-4 Nekoko - Venmar, Disturbed_One, Shamrock
L-4 Bitmap - MagnaofIllusion, HerrRudi, Klick

So the people on the Bitmap wagon with me are Klick and HerrRudi? No, that will not do.

UNVOTE: Bitmap
VOTE: Nekoko

[MagnaofIllusion]

So back from a busy weekend …

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MoI: what did you glean from that last post of Q's that made you set your vote in stone that wasn't present in the other posts, or what was reaffirmed by that post?

@MagnaofIllusion - Are you really going to assume that NumberQ's flake is a scumtell in this situation? I've seen him flake from a couple games as of late, regardless of position.

So you feel his flake was legitimately him raging at getting pressure from a reputable player? Could it have just been him getting bored with the game, abrupt though it seemed?

I mainly posted that to see the reaction from NumberQ’s replacement. It clearly isn’t a scum-tell to replace (it also isn’t a Town tell either). So I wanted to get reaction from Bitmap (which he being a typical Bitmap derp has given nothing …).

Although I am glad to see that of those who did react 2/3rds are Town / Townish reads.

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@Guile

– what do you think of Klick?

But I would like to hear your opinion on HerrRudi.

Herr strikes me as careful scum. Parking a vote on a ‘lurker’ was what first dinged my scumdar. And unvoting it before I even provide any content reads to me as “whelp, not really voting because I think is scum but because it was a safe place to park vote”. Especially with the subsequent sheeping of me on NumberQ. There is more to the case, of course, but this is a good summary for the moment.

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Also, @ MoI:
I would assume his motivation as a townie for arguing against the "obvious truth" is that he feels he has a "better" viewpoint, or one that feels he would be more beneficial to the town. If he was scum doing this, I'd have to assume he'd want to suggest something that would be harmful to the town. But I think it would be pretty easy to determine whether his suggestion (which is currently pending) is actually helpful or harmful. In my mind, it's much more likely that a townie would want to take this course of action, as opposed to scum trying to sabotage the claiming process. That seems like a high-risk play.

I disagree in that Klick hasn’t provided one bit of suggestion as to why it is a bad idea despite his initial “no time for a wall now”. Read his subsequent posts on the matter … he refuses to provide any reasons at all other than generic “I just think situationally it is better”. Reads to me as scum who doesn’t want a plan that strongly restricts scum’s ability to claim.

Case on Mhork isn't bad, but I get the feeling he's town.

What exactly is the case on LordM again? Because I haven’t seen one.

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No idea where you are going on this. I just answered Venmar's question. I'm not trying to meta Klick/Kondi or whoever (idk if that's even a hydra), I was just making non game related commentary and answering the question Venmar or Klick, i forget, asked me.

I am drawing no conclusions from his self vote. It got us out of RVS. I'm not gonna praise him as a paragon of townies for that move. It is what it is.

So why mention at all that you saw how Klick played in KBB’s game if you aren’t drawing any conclusions from it? That looks very much like filler (which is exactly what non-game related commentary is by definition) and the fact that you make statements “ballsy move” that to me look like they are intended to resemble game relevant commentary is suspect.

Tough to describe, it's just hesitation. And the more he posts the more used to his style I get so that casts some doubt. I find that often times the tone of players in the early game is very big part of my read on them. So a bad first impression lays upon a scummy vibe, but more posts, and me getting more used to them, settles that down a bit. This is the case with Disturbed currently

None of this explains why you would be up for lynching someone you have a gut-Town read on ….

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MoI, most cases will abide by your ideas anyway. Why not make it a case-by-case thing, just to be cautious?

Because you can’t provide a single scenario where it is not the most Pro-Town manner to treat claiming. Scum are greatly constrained in what they can hope to accomplish if Town follows my rules.

Frankly your “there should be exceptions to be cautious” reads as scum who hate having their hands-tied when fake-claiming.

Klick also earns scum-points for Post 241 where he coat-tails Potato’s apathy post with one of his own in a very weak / fake way.

@Klick

– did you think Post 246 would earn you Town cred for “Lulz, scum would never be that cheeky”?

I almost want to lynch Klick first for Post 250. Those “Town and Scum reads” lists would be a treasure trove of relational reads if he is scum as I feel he is.

What a wonderful wagon hop.

Why did you feel the need to weasel-word this up Klick? I’ve just moved my vote to one of your Town reads. You seem afraid to actually call it scummy. Why is that?

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Because I think it's scummy to vote without commenting on it even if just to tell it's not relevant or significant or something. It gives me an impression that he just voted because Cheery voted Klick.

Well if you aren’t scum this is a terrible scum-tell to use. There are numerous players on site who do not believe in explicit explanations with votes. That’s a playstyle choice.

I have no real strong feeling towards him because through out the game I was focused on Disturbed_One.

Another reason you can have my vote. Because there are more than 1 scum in the game and no reason to not have a read on a player because you have a scum-read on another player.

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That saves me having to bring that up after just watching that game end. (and I had you figured as scum that game from your post before the town crossvoted each other - didn't read much of the rest of that though so that didn't effect my vote on you on page 1) The fact you revealed it strengths my town read on you slightly.

I want to post a face-palm pic here. In fact I will (and have it themed to your avatar) …



Giving him Town credit for doing something that he HAS to do as scum to keep it from being used against him is bad. Bad dog, no treat for you.

Also your reasoning for voting LordM is bad. Be better Cheery!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Answering those when I get out of school, but I will say that I have a feeling you know those are pretty terrible scumtells.

VOTE: Klick

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also, that was a response to Cheery's reasoning for voting Mhork. Which you already know, because you responded to it.

So the case, as it were, was that he said you weren't voting Nekoko when you actually were?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I note that Nekoko has faded into the background as others are getting pressure.

--

Anyways I'll be back with some more actual insights tonight or tomorrow morning. I need to see what the Nekoko fuss is all about

Eagerly awaiting this content since it is now tomorrow morning.

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@MoI: If Klick flips scum, do you see A_Potato being scum? Also, <3.

Not that I have noticed. Frankly I’d have to go back and look at their interactions once Klick flips scum. I'm more inclinded to push my scum reads of Nekoko, HerrR and Klick over Potato (who is butt-hurt about not being 'Town Leader' is my guess at this point).

Also stop ‘Less than Three’ing me. I don’t “Less than Three” you.

MoI's towny.

MoI: I have no idea.

These were posted basically an hour and three quarters apart with no intervening posts by me.

Which is it?

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How about we decide if we're following your rules when a claim happens instead of blindly following them? This isn't some dictatorship.

You haven't provided a single scenario where deciding upon the claim happening not the most Pro-Town matter to treat claiming.

I also can't see how my suggestion to take it case-by-case could possibly come across as scummy to you. Again, you're not a dictator.

Seeing as I've posted before that that I'm incredibly demotivated, I'm probably not faking apathy.

In regards to the bolded – yes I have. It was in the initial post. Your whining here that “this isn’t a dictatorship” is just you trying to take the focus away from the fact that you STILL haven’t provided a single reason why not following the plan is a more Pro-Town move.

Of course you say you can’t see it … you are scum. You have to say that.

This is what I meant by "I think you know this is bullshit." Jokes are scumtells now?

Translation – “Oh no I’ve been pegged for the wrong / stupid reason”.

Once again – that post has all the earmarks of being made for effect … specifically the “No scum would post that” effect.

I hadn't seen you accusing me or Herr before that point. I wanted to see if you would give an actual reason to switch.

Well maybe if you read the thread you would see posts where I question both of you indicating my suspicion of your slots.

And let’s turn that back right at you … you have yet to show any suspicion of me UNTIL I draw you under fire. Why is that?

Everything you just accused me of is incredibly weak, and I can't see you being confident in me being scum based on it.

Oh look another round of “Caught for bad reasons”.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Questioning is not indicative of suspicion. In both cases.

I don't know what game

YOU

are playing but this is Mafia ... of course questioning is indication of suspicion.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ugh I've completely lost interest in playing mafia. Not this exact game, but in general. I wanted to give it one last go with this game, and... it's not working. Sorry everyone!

MOD: I request replacement.

This looks much worse to me since numberQ has just /inned to a new Mini Theme game in the last 24hours ...

UNVOTE:

I'm going to have to re-read ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

UNVOTE: Klick
VOTE: Nekoko

I get the sense this growing wagon on Bitmap may be based on some confusion.

For those who somehow are under the impression that Bitmap is an accomplished Mafia player and his erratic posting is alignment indicative – you are wrong

. He’s a VI. His posts look erratic and don’t make much sense because they never do.

Klick is still scum. Look at Post 359 … he pops in to one-line a response that is meaningless to scum-hunting. Classic active-lurking and when combined with the lack of actual scum-hunting in his ISO is a recipe for rope. But if partner Nekoko needs to go first so be it.

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What I do find wrong is your one word questions, which to me are telling me you're trying to look like you're hunting alignments by asking questions, however not putting any thought into the questions because you already know everyone's alignment.

This makes my brain hurt. You suspect someone for this reason?

Who are your scum reads at this point Cheery? I need to assess whether I’ve been letting you slide.

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@Guile

– if you are going to reference specific posts please use the [post=XXX][/post] (where XXX is the actual post number in thread) feature going forward.

I've heard he's a good player. I think he was a hydra with Om at some point, so he is familiar with Om's thought process.

Whoever told you that about Bitmap was lying. He’s not a good player. He did hydra with Om at one point – it was in fact the game that I brought up to Om earlier where he was well off-base – [url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=22693]Open 425[/ur]. Also – I don’t think a single hydra occurance makes someone read proficient in general and I certainly don’t think it does for Bitmap.

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@Shamrock

– what about Post 299 and Post 342 by Bitmap do you find vote-worthy at all? As far as Bitmap posting goes that’s pretty damn good. I find your hop with that justificantion pretty suspect.

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HerrR’s Post 348 is a huge mass of words that says … nothing of significance. It’s classic IIoA. Boiling it down here is what he actually concludes –

Potato is suspect (yet not actually called scum) for having a discrepancy post per head (which is a garbage metric and not alignment indicative).

Bitmap is scummy for being inconsistent.

Nekoko is fine (not specifically Town, but fine which is careful use of language to make sure he doesn’t lock himself into a position that he can’t back away from).

Distrubed is now Town. He has a Townread on Mhork for persistence (which is another bullshit “make up a reason” explanation).

No read on myself, Guile, Venmar, Cheery Dog, and Klick. In fact his “I can’t read Klick but I wouldn’t be surprised if he flipped Scum” is classic possible distancing.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: MoI

(Expecting the response "You waited for me to unvote before you voted. Classic scum avoiding an OMGUS vote.")

It's ok Klick - you know I've nailed you. Don't feel bad about flailing.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Now the reason that I said that, which I realize it did not come clear in my post, is because I want to point out that Bitmap is good enough to overturn a scum-NQ slot with good posts.

Just let me say for the record I strongly disagree with this stance. I don't think I have ever seen Bitmap (including recent games) play in a way that would redeem a slot. In fact I've seen him doom or almost doom several Town slots lately.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Beh?

It's a simple question - why did you vote Bitmap for those quotes?

[MagnaofIllusion]

You mean how people hustle each other in a game of mafia all the time in order to fake meta? OH GOLLY GEE!
You mean how I purposely acted retarded in order to coin a SK victory and that the mafia team was so butthurt that they didn't want scum QT to be released? OH GOLLY GEE!

Yes, competent players do those things. I have NEVER seen a game where you have demonstrated anything close to ability commensurate with being a competent player.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I would love you to link these games provided they aren't ongoing.

Literal Video Mafia?

How's that for starters? You played poorly and got run up to L-1. What did you do then? In a limited reveal game (which was Mod declared from the start) you simply refused to claim. And got lynched for it. That was a stupid move in and of itself, but was compounded by the fact you could have used your role to lock in a 1v1 Vote Conflict that Day which is an overwhelmingly Town role via site Meta and might have turned the tide.

There one example. Do you need more?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I mean, if Bitmap-town had only two scumreads upon replacing in, wouldn't he remember who they were? Why would he say he hadn't noticed one of them after declaring a scumread on him?

Those quotes don't support that reasoning at all. He replaces in, has a mild scum-read on Nekoko and proceeds to say "I need to look

MORE

into Nekoko". I've bolded the important word. Having a read based on a read-along and then wanting to more directly dig into that read once you are actually in the game is a Town mindset move.

Your reasoning is bad and vote is bad.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, summarize what I've done that is scummy.

No. I've already laid it out in my posts. You've either dodged or just tried to handwave those points already so I think I'm happy not jumping through hoops for you. Since you are scum and all. You do get some more scum-points for going to the "Make them repeat over and over as opposed to addressing what has already been said" well though.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, I want you to do it so that everyone can see how insignificant your points are.

They are infinitely more significant that every point you've made to suggest I am scum. Here's a hint - you've made none. I'll make you a deal - first you lay out your case for MoI scum with all your points. Then I'll lay out my case for Klick scum. Seems reasonable to me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Can I just get vigged tonight?

Oh, I’m just faking being a VI because …. well, I can’t really say why exactly …

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I'd like to see both Klick and Moi lay out there cases against each other. I think their cases could say a lot about them both.

You can expect mine coming up. I predict a lack of anything from Klick because … well … he’s scum.

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Look at Post 417 carefully.

First Nekoko gives active reasons why Potato is scummy and then immediately unvotes him for a ‘more suspicious player’. That player is Venmar … who is voting Nekoko. And her ‘List of 5’ reasons aren’t actually things that I can see as scummy.

She lists tunneling on herself (not a scum-tell to anyone but herself) and commenting on a number of actual game activities (at worst Null).

Next we get a reads list that is as such –

Venmar is the only scum.

Null (but suspicious) – includes Klick (because I suspect him … she sees nothing herself), Potato (who she just unvoted), Distrubed (for buddying to me … more on that in a bit), Guile (also for buddying).

Null – Shamrock

Null (but fell towny) – Bitmap (Vibe and rapid posting), LordM (because people can be paranoid as Town), HerrR (Vibes, similar to Cheery Dog)

Town is CheeryDog (is scum-hunting) and myself (I’m leading the Town, so I must be Town).

So she attacks several players for buddying or buddying me but she herself does so in that very post (she agrees to suspect Klick only because I do, and calls me Town for a ludicrouosly stupid reason).

And despite having a Klick suspicion (which others have voiced support for) she chooses to go towards Venmar as the best place for her vote.

I think that post can be classified as IIoA trying to masquerade as scum-hunting to make up for her “fading into the background”.

@Nekoko

– if you truly think I am the Town leader and will be getting things done Klick is the only player in your suspicions list I would even consider voting today. Why don’t you vote Klick?

Based on his posts, the only reads you can think Venmar has is
Scum: Nekoko
Null: Everyone else

I appreciate the irony of someone who just made a reads list that was mostly Null or 'Null, but' attacking someone else for having Null reads.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Klick Case

–

Read his ISO and follow along.

ISO 0 – 13

– He starts of with his ‘Self-vote I got us out of RVS’ which we know is at best Null (and I’ve yet to see an example of him doing as Town … need to dig through his threads later to see if it actually qualifies as a Scum Meta move). The rest of these posts are “Disturbed is scum for voting me” until he reverses at Post 45 because Disturbed is persistent. And he votes Cheery for some reason (he earlier mentioned him as scum with Disturbed) but we never do know what it is because …

ISO 14 – 18

– He mumbles around making comments that are complete active lurking fodder (seriously … find anything that signifies any sort of actual read in there. He then votes HerrR because “he likes the wagon”.

ISO 19 - 26

- More active lurking with the occasional question answer thrown in. Still no sign of wanting to develop an actual scum-hunting. No actual pursuit of HerrR indicating why he is scum or asking him any questions to feel out his alignment.

ISO 27 gets specific, special attention –

I'll vote Nekoko when I catch up on this game.

He dodged answering why he posted this when I [post= ]asked him about it[/post]. In context – I’ve just replaced in and started my NumberQ wagon that is gaining steam (HerrR jumps right on). Distrubed still has a strong wagon.

If he doesn’t have a scum read on NumberQ (which him not supporting the growing wagon would indicate) why does he suggest he’s going to unvote HerrR (who just jumped on the wagon being pushed by his prior vote) and Nekoko? He hasn’t mentioned Nekoko all game. Nekoko does have 2 votes (Venmar and Distrubed) so it does look like a nice place to park a vote that looks meaningful while it isn’t since Nekoko is not in the spotlight.

ISO 28 – 36

- He then begins his Active Lurk and comment on all things non-scumhunting regimine with his “I disagree with your claim plan MoI”. He throws in some prod-dodging and pointless cheekiness to show he’s totally Town which I have already commented on.

Finallly his magical reads post arrives and we get the following –

Alright, townreads:

Disturbed*
Cheery
Shamrock
HerrRudi*
MoI
Nekoko^

* non-negotiable
^ getting both good and bad feelings

That leaves:

A_Potato
guille
Mhork
nQ
Venmar

I'm pretty sure that A_Potato and Mhork are not a team. Therefore, there's at least 2 scum in {guille, nQ, Venmar} if I'm right.

VOTE: nQ

#126
#138
#172

Let’s discuss all the ways this is wrong.

First look at his Town-Reads and see if you can find the running theme. Yup, that’s right – those are all the people he either voted (Disturbed, Cheery, HerrR), said he would vote (Nekoko, who he fence-sits on ), and myself and Shamrock. Note at this juncture he’s not said word one about Shamrock. Question yourself as to how he got Town reads on those players (and a non-negotiable Town read on HerrR who he just unvotes this post despite having not a single bit of interaction with).

Note his scum-reads for later in this post – Potatot, Guile, LordM, nQ and Venmar.

Note that he also as justification for his vote slaps down three post numbers (and no explanation) – Post 126, Post 138 and Post 172. The funny thing? Only one of those posts is actually NumberQ’s.

126 is a post by Venmar about Nekoko and 138 is a post by Nekoko calling out Distubed as scum.

So basically that was a massive IIoA wall meant to look like content but showing no actual reasoning or support for how those reads came about.

ISO 38 – 44

– This series brings us a pronouncement that his Cheery read is non-negoatiable, that Nekoko is Town because ‘Newb Scum are all aggressive’ which is completely fabricated given that the main reason he voted Distrubed originally was his aggressive vote on Klick for self-voting, and some “I don’t have proper time to play and provide content” fluff.

ISO 45 begins the period where he and I go at it. I think I’ve already handled quite well his responses on that.

ISO 49 – 54

– brings us the series where he “reaction tests” Bitmap by calling him scum and then decides he’s Town. Yes, the Bitmap that was his vote and among his ‘scum-reads’ back at his PoE fest. But now he's Town.

The rest of his ISO is his rather funny vote on me and prod-dodging.

Summary

– I think it is pretty clear why I think Klick is scum.

1. No scum-hunting. His votes are haphazard and unreasoned. I’ve yet to see anything (outside of his Page 1 to 2 vote for Disturbed) as to why anyone he calls scum is scum.
2. Active lurking.
3. Voting pattern. Every vote he has made today has been on a person he called Town at some point today. Meanwhile the players he has called scum without later revoking that read to Town (Potato, Guile, LordM, Venmar) have not a single vote between them from Klick.
4. Previously mentioned “I don’t want scum fucked over by the obvious Pro-Town claiming procedures MoI has elaborated on”.

Yes, I think he’s pretty obv-scum and his play fits quite well with my Nekoko-scum read as well. Either one would be a good lynch today. Since Nekoko has more support at this juncture I’m keeping my vote on her.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So do you no longer think Bitmap is scum, or what?

I think the odds of him being scum given that both HerrR and Klick (who are also scum-reads of mine) were also voting him are smaller than either Nekoko or Klick.

I’ll be frankly – Bitmap is a DayMiller in my eyes. As with Disturbed’s early wagon I am using “MoI’s Rules” in assessing him. Were either HerrR or Klick (but especially Klick) be revealed as Town I would have to seriously revise my read.

Who are your suspects outside of Bitmap Shamrock?

--

I kinda just skimmed over this, and I don't have time to fully respond, but the thing about the three post numbers is that they were posts that I noted at the end of my post during my read for being suspicious. I forgot to comment on them.

The summary of why MoI is scum is that everything he's accusing me of is either not scummy or overexxagerated, and MoI is smart enough to know it. Especially after I pointed it out (which he also said was a scum move).

So your reason is (in as non-specific a way as possible) I’m scum for accusing you of non-scum tells or severe exaggeration.

Noted.

Where exactly did you point it out in non-generic terms that I have not responded to refute?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Not voting: guille2015, Cheery Dog

Deadline in 3 days, 6 hours, 4 minutes.

This is wrong and needs to be corrected ASAP.

And I don't mean the Deadline count for you smart-asses out there ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I will be LA from 4:45pm EDT today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

--

Me thinking here that if he was scum and Nekoko were town, we would have found his vote there, except that he is on MoI. I would think that that is what I would expect. So I am assuming that the above is not the case.

If you think I am Town then you need to realize his voting me for the reasons he did is a pretty strong Town-tell given the circumstances.

I had already stated that my suspicions of his slot were reduced by HerrR and Klick both voting him. So his reasoning for voting me (which is essentially butthurt that I called him a VI) does not make any sense from a Scum perspective.

Bitmap knows he isn’t getting me mislynched. So going all Emo and voting me for patently stupid reasons only risks me re-examining his case if he his scum. As Benmage puts it – no need to wake the dragon.

Counter-point that to Klick whose suspicion of me only comes

AFTER

I start holding his feet to the fire. That’s much more likely scum behavior when it comes to me.

@Guile

– deadline is in 2 days. Why are you insisting on fence-sitting between Bitmap and Nekoko? Commit to a vote!

--

Who is greygnarl replacing?

I would venture to say HerrR is the pretty obvious answer but I’ll let Messiah confirm that.

--

I swear someone always points out that I have no vote in action everytime I unvote to think about the new placement of a vote.

Deadline, as I said earlier, is 2 days away. The time for quiet reflection is past IMO.

--

No time for the case on MoI tonight. I would be willing to just settle it with a 1v1, though.

So let’s once again discuss the latest scum offering from Mr. Cheeky himself.

1. He never has time for a case it seems. Plenty of time for active-lurking non-scum hunting content.
2. The soft suggestion of a 1 v 1 is quite scummy. Firstly he only brings it up 48 hours before deadline at the point where deadline momentum means that Nekoko (hopefully) or Bitmap is going to be the lynch. Which makes it a completely empty gesture only meant to attempt to mine ‘Town Cred’ in people saying “Only Town declare 1v1s”. Secondly note he doesn’t address it to me directly. Which further cements it is as a empty rhetoric.

@Everyone – If I die tonight please hold Klick to this fake 1v1 stance he proffered here.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So does that mean you're willing, MoI?

Of course. I’m confident in my scum read of you. So you going to self-vote to make it happen?

--

So my reads are terrible but does that make me scum?

That’s not the point of my reasoning why you are scum at all. Bad reads do occur. Why I find you scummy is that your reads appear completely manufactured as opposed to based on scum-hunting. It is with little irony I point out my reason for you being scum is the same as your reasoning on Venmar in the exact same post –

To me it looks like he's pretending to scum hunt.

I bet if you suspected him earlier in this game and he did
those things, you will say it's actively lurking.

Do you know what active lurking is? It isn’t posting infrequently. It is posting infrequently while not posting anything that has any relevance to reads to scum-hunting. I don’t see that in his ISO. His post contain comments that indicate his thoughts on the game-state and ask questions relevant to determining alignment of players based on their own posts.

[MagnaofIllusion]

My only question to MoI is this: Do you think it's possible that Klick and Nekoko could be on the same scum team?

Yes, in that there is only one scum-team possible (this is an open game), I have scum reads on both slots, and I don't see anything that indicates they aren't possibly scum together.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So we get to the last few hours and suddenly Klick unvotes after being swayed. How utterly predictable. Since you people spamming the thread have allowed Nekoko to lurk her way out of a righteous wagon I’m making my vote useful.

VOTE: Klick

If Klick flips Mafia Goon Nekoko should be Vigged / lynched ASAP. Because Klick’s 1v1 distraction and self-voting worked perfectly to let Nekoko’s wagon evaporate.

--

@Distrubed

– why did you take Nekoko off of L-1 before she could even respond to the pressure?

--

I've also already explained multiple times that MoI knows that the scumtells he's using against me are bullshit.

Actually saying something repeatedly is different than actually explaining why something is as such.

You’ve done the first part (said “The tells are bullshit” repeatedly) without the second.

Eat rope.

For the record, I have self-voted to get someone else lynched as town before.

I got a hearty laugh out of you linking to Disney Mafia (where you self-voted near endgame to help get MattP (who was Town) lynched in LYLO) as support for this statement. So good job on that end.

--

I'd like to see them be able to progress with their 1 v 1 tomorrow, I don't have a definite read on either of them, and them having a 1 v 1 (while still looking out at everyone else in the game) might be able to help be indentify their alignments better.
MoI is currently leading the race, but I'm still not convinced.

This post moves Cheery from my Town reads to a Null read. On a gut level this reads as something I would expect scum to post (encouraging the 1 v 1 without committing to a read on either player).

I don't want to be lynching either of them today, I will possibly look through their ISOs during the night,

but my reads aren't likely to change anyway.

The bolded is suspect. You just said you didn’t have a ‘definitive read’ on either of us. Why don’t you see your reads changing with review overnight and a flip to work with when you don’t have a solid read now?

--

Uhh last game I played with you being scum you were playing almost completely like you are here.

Where’s your link to said game?

Oh boy, Om is indeed scum.

Where’s your link showing Om to be bullshitting scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

So let’s discuss the game-state.

There are nine players alive. We have lost 3 Vanilla Town. So the set-up as it stands looks like this right now.

Town –

1 Vig
1 Jailkeeper
1 Backup-RoleCop
3 VTs

Scum –

1 RoleCop
1 Back-up Jailkeeper
1 Goon

A mislynch today combined with a Mis-Vig tonight and a successful Mafia kill means it is 3 v 3. So today is MYLO. Either we lynch successfully today or the Vig risks the game making a bad shot. Keep this in mind going forward today.

Personally my gut says that the Jailkeeper and Back-up RoleCop should probably claim. I can elaborate on the reasons if necessary.

--

If MoI is scum like kondi seems to think he can be lynched tomorrow, but I'm not that sure on it yet so I'm not going to follow through.

Why don’t you have a read Potato? Town Potato in Carbon 14 was more than willing to yell for my head (him being dead wrong irrelevant to the issue).

--

My unvote of Nekoko happened because I wasn't liking the director's posts, and given that was the slot that Nekoko had been targeting, I thought there may have been some worth in it.

Please explain how you not liking Director’s posts made you change your opinion on Nekoko. Because scum do bus / distance. What did you ‘not like’ about the Director that indicated scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Since Nekoko has been put at L-1 once already I’m going to go ahead and claim myself since my claim gives scum the toughest decision at Night.

I’m the Town Back-up Role Cop

.

--

@Nekoko

– You were at L-1. Why didn’t you claim? Guile had already expressed intention to vote you.

Then the vig should never risk the game by shooting someone if we mislynch today?

Nope. If I were the Vig I’d probably shoot given a 60% chance of success without applying reads (assuming I got buy in from JK and BackUp RoleCop to claim). But it is a risk and a bad shot basically makes the Vig the goat. It really is going to depend on how confident the Vig is in their abilities.

Is role claiming frequently done during MYLO in this forums?

In an open set-up it should be done 100 out of 100 times. As it forces scum to either counter-claim (and risk being lynched or shot) or allow Town Powerroles to become confirmed.

Roleclaiming in actual LYLO doesn’t necessarily help Town as it freely allows Scum to counter-claim and win outright on a mis-lynch. Here’s a link to an example –

Open 320. This was the alternate setup (Mafia began with the Jailkeeper and Town began with the RoleCop) but the result shows why mass-claiming (or in the case of this game limited Role Claiming) before LYLO is good.

Magua was nailed by SleepyKrew (actual RoleCop) in 7 person LYLO (Vig already dead, all scum alive). I counterclaimed Sleepy’s claim of RoleCop and one Townie was convinced to vote with Magua, Stefan B and I as opposed to Sleepy and the rest of Town.

--

Nekoko's reasoning for voting elsewhere is so transparent the fact it isn't obvtown is disgraceful. I find it interesting she was the target of the D2 quick wagon.

stuff removed

His last post was basically "hey guys I think the target of the current wagon is scummy but I'm just here to test the waters before posting."

So who are the scum bandwagonning the player you softly call Obv-Town Director? Why no attention to the players actually making the votes?

By the way all town PRs should claim and we wait for counter claims. That is all.

And MagnaofIllusion gets a scum point for not calling for even the vig to claim.

Nope. The Vig should remain hidden. The remaining VT roles serve as a buffer to the Vig making it riskier for scum to try to kill the Vig. The Backup and Jailkeeper claiming makes sure the Vig doesn’t shoot them accidently and narrows down their pool of “Who can possibly be scum” to worst case (on a mislynch) a 3 in 5 chance of killing scum if they risk the shot.

But your posts today and yesterday make me confident enough in dropping a vote on your slot.

VOTE: Director

--

They just read as bad. I don't see how town would come in and declare an obvscum and then give out a team of the most suspicious players that had been mentioned. (although it did somehow exclude Nekoko)

That’s not what I asked. You didn’t commit to Director as scummy here … just incompetent. So why should a player (who you don’t think is scum) and their comments change your read on a player you did think was scum if they are just a bad player?

@Mod, if we get to 3v3 with both the jailkeeper and the vig alive, does the game continue going?

Why are you asking this? If you really wanted to know you’d go to Post 2 and read the publicly stated Mafia Wincon –

Win condition:
You win when the Mafia obtain a majority or nothing can prevent this from occurring.

Clearly the Mafia getting to 3-3 is not a majority so not an instant win. It does require Town to either lynch correctly (or lose before Night actions can happen) or go to Night with a No Lynch and hope that both the Jailkeeper correctly blocks / protects the Mafia kill and the Vig doesn’t shoot Town. So not exactly a scenario that is worth risking without factors (like 1 of the scum being outed due to claims and flips).

At a gut level I really don’t like this as it looks like Faux “Look at How Helpful I am” Town Cred-grabbing.

--

Because I haven't been paying much attention to what you're actually posting since you wall too much and it's hard for me to read. Couldn't you tell just from our earlier conversation?

If you are Town stop playing Mafia then because this is such a load of crap.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yeah I'm not reading all of that. Can I get the Sportscenter highlight version of that book you just wrote? Kthx.

Nope reading isn't a hardship Tex.

I'll take it you aren't counterclaiming since my claim was right up front.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'll take it that you are paranoid about getting counterclaimed.

Nope. I'd love to be. Because then we can 1 v 1 and with a Scum flip of said counter-claimer I'm both confirmed Town and scum are down one player.

Why are you too lazy to read a post that is hardly long? Is it a smoke-screen for you knowing you don't want to actually have to comment on what I posted?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Still waiting for that short version, champ.

Well expect to be waiting a long, long time (like forever).

If you aren't an Alt - this is my playstyle. It's not changing.
If you are an Alt (in which case you are Faraday most likely) - You probably have played with me and thus know it is a stupid request.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You do realize that long posts from town are almost as bad as town injecting WIFOM into the game?

Besides short posts that boil down what you are trying to say are far more effective than posting long-winded posts that do nothing but confuse anyone trying to read them. Plus the game turns into homework, and eyes glass over. You don't want to post short posts for your reads? Fine. But you are kidding yourself if you are going to convince anyone but scum to vote for me.

nope.jpg

I appreciate you treating me as Town with this post but you've wasted a bunch of time making an MD post that means nothing. MafiaScum has had this "Long Posts are terrible / Spamming short posts are Terrible" style discussion many, many times before and there is no 'result' to be had. Your opinion on what is effective and what is not is just that ... opinion. Pretending otherwise is just plain bad.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I looked yesterday with the fresh perspective of Klick, Grey and Bitmap being Town.

A bunch rides on Nekoko’s alignment in my opinion.

Looking at how the wagons formed and moved I can draw some conclusions.

If Nekoko is scum the Director and Distrubed would be my first stops. Venmar was highly focused on Nekoko but the Director swoops in and separates the Klick wagon from the Nekoko wagon when they were close. And Disturbed pretty much parked his vote on Nekoko until the point where Nekoko got to L-1 with much haste.

If Nekoko is Town then I want one of LordM and Potato’s heads on a platter today. Because both showed absolutely no interest in Nekoko yesterday while it was viable yet started off today immediately voting her. If she’s Town that means all the meaningful wagons of yesterday were Town and scum had little motivation to push strongly. Both LordM and Potato parked their votes on Bitmap (Post 321 and Post 355 respectively) and spent most of the rest of the day slapfighting each other.

Going to take some time this weekend to really look at Nekoko in light of all three flips and see where I come down.

[MagnaofIllusion]

UNVOTE: Director

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be LA from pretty much now until Monday morning for my usual weekend V/LA

[MagnaofIllusion]

Kinda pissed that Magna is town because his posting not only has the town freaked, but his long posts are screwing up the reads for everyone.

Somebody call the Waaaaahmbulance …

This game is at a paranoid standstill because town is afraid to lynch anyone and scum is lurking and waiting for the chance to lynch a town and move into tonight with a good chance of winning.

guille needs to be lynched. His testing the waters post to start out the day was the most telling. He needs more votes. Now.

I want to point out this statement for two reasons … the first is that it is a pure Appeal to Fear (don't make the wrong move Town or you lose tonight) but I want to get into the specifics of what he is saying …

Let’s look at the vote-count made just prior to this statement –

L-2 Nekoko - A_Potato, Lord Mhork, Disturbed_One
L-3 the director - Shamrock, guille2015
L-3 guille2015 - the director, Nekoko

Not Voting: Cheery Dog, MagnaofIllusion

Now let’s juxtapose what his statement says with this. Director says

1. Town is afraid to lynch and scum is just lurking around looking for a chance to lynch Town.
2. Guile is scum.

So what Director is saying is that both himself and Nekoko are Town with significant wagons, Guile is a scum counterwagon. Yet that doesn’t jibe with his “scum are just waiting around to mislynch Town”. Why haven’t either Nekoko or himself been mislynched if scum are just ‘lurking around waiting to mislynch Town”? And who are the scum? He claims Guile is and earlier claimed Shamrock was. Yet why haven’t they lynched Nekoko as opposed to sitting on director together. He can’t argue that they are afraid to act in unison.

After this posting and a review of Nekoko's ISO I think Nekoko should be the lynch today. If she somehow flips Town I think a shot between LordM and Potato by the Vig (meaning don’t JK them) nets scum. And if she flips Mafia director should be perforated overnight.

VOTE: Nekoko

@Nekoko

– You are at L-1. I highly suggest you claim in your next post as I’m not uncounter-claimed Town and suggest it is the smart course of action.

--

My guess to the team at the moment is nekoko, mhork and possibly potato. although there is a chance director may be part of it still - I'm not completely sure.

How can you possibly think that is the team? There is no way, after a Day 1 mislynch and two NKs on Town players, that two scum are just going to bandwagon Day 2 onto their partner after the way they avoided her Day 1. It isn’t going to earn them any Town cred given they could have lynched her Day 1 but avoided that wagon like the plague.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Uhh, are you sure this is wise? An incorrect vig shot loses the game if today's lynch flips town.

I'd take that shot. I think the chances that either LordM or Potato are Town if Nekoko is Town is pretty much Zero.

In the end not my decision. But given I've become confirmed Town via no Counter-claim I think offering the Vig my guidance is a good thing at this stage.

Then again ... I have my strong doubts Nekoko is flipping Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

How is it even possible that you can guess if a person is goon??
You're twisting posts to make it look like we're somehow both scum.
I think it's scummy to hypothesize scum teams without even scum flip.

Let’s see –

1. Caught for the wrong reason (how can possibly know I am a goon?)
2. An accusation of Twisting without showing where Guile is making false conclusions which is just “buzzwording”.
3. I think if you aren’t scum you need to play in Road to Rome more.

Still waiting for that claim.

--

So I'm equivocating a bit between these two lynches, as I agree that Nekoko's flip gives us more associational information based on the D1 wagons, but I think the director is safer. Honestly, does anyone see the director flipping town at this point?

Well given that Nekoko flipping Town means that director is very unlikely scum I find the “safer” element of this argument to be pointless and a distraction.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Nekoko

Scum-claim.

Attention Vig and Jailkeeper

-

Jailkeeper - do not block / protect director tonight.
Vig - Nekoko flipping scum means director is the likely BEST shot in my professional opinion.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I have a Result of Vanilla Town on a player. Once I clarify something with the Mod I will probably confirm who that player is.

I think with the Director flipping Town and my getting a result that odds are favorable the Jailkeeper should consider outing their target as I don't seem very many other reasons why a second kill didn't happen that doesn't involve Mafia being blocked. See how the day goes first (aka try to lynch that person directly without outing yourself) but keep it as an option.

Updating my Vote Count analysis for Director's flip. Will have thoughts in a moment.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok I have clarified with the Mod based on a bit of confusion in my result. My target is not the Back-up Jailkeeper but is not cleared of being a Goon.

LordM is Vanilla.

He becomes confirmed Town the second a Mafia Goon flips.

@Guile

- I'm not immediately voting as I want time for someone to counter-claim you but I'm inclined to believe that action as Distrubed was me second choice for investigation last night after LordM.

Anyone want to counter-claim Guile's Jailkeeper claim?

@Distrurbed

- You probably should claim in your first post ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Actually an important point I think needs to be made

@Everyone - depending on how this day plays out it may be in our best interests to have the Vig claim and coordinate Investigations / Jailkeeps / Vigs. So it is probably best to not immediately power-lynch Disturbed even if Guile is not counter-claimed.

SO PLEASE DO NOT PUT ANY OTHER VOTES ON HIM UNTIL CLAIMS GET SORTED OUT AND NIGHT ACTIONS DECIDED ON AS NECESSARY

@Guile - it might be a good idea for you to unvote for the moment.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yet to post today ...

Lord Mhork -
A_Potato -
Disturbed_One -
Cheery Dog -
Shamrock -

This is more for my edification. Please feel free to ignore as fluff.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Any ideas on how we should lynch today?

Yeah, more on that in a minute but you probably are not going to like what is going to happen …

--

I tried to look at why grey was killed

, and decided out probably wasn't because of his suspicions which weren't very strong - his slot however was in klick's do not kill ever list, so I went and looked at that for possible night 2 targets and found myself and disturbed on said list, thus since I can't jail myself I jailed the other person on that list.

Thanks for confirming you are scum with the bolded Cherry. Because you are not the Vig and thus have no reason to know for certain that Bitmap was the Vig kill unless you are Mafia.

--

MoI, say that the mafia actually shot the director? What would that mean?

It would mean they are incredibly inept. Because after losing their RoleCop Day 2 they needed bodies laid out as fast as possible and killing the target I has specifically called for the Vig to kill only made sense if they had RoleCopped the director as Vig N1 (and we know this is not what happened). Because even if Cheery hadn’t slipped and confirmed he was Mafia the best course of action is to lynch Distrubed with the numbers alive we currently have. I’ll explain more in my next post.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So here is how we are going to proceed today.

7 are alive –

Town RoleCop (me)
Town Jailkeeper
Town Vig
VT times 2

Scum Backup Jailkeeper
Scum Goon

The Vig claims at this point. We need confirmation on who it is to lock down PoE. I’d also like them to claim which shot they made N1.

We aren’t lynching within the Jailkeeper claims today. If we go wrong (which I doubt we would) that gives scum control of the Power at Night. So neither Guile or Cheery are being lynched.

We are lynching Distrubed. His slot makes very good senses as a partner for Nekoko (he hopped off the L-1 wagon on the MafiaRoleCop before she had to claim and made an attractive bus target early Day 1). Even if he flips Town sets up PoE Victory for Town.

NOBODY IS TO VOTE UNTIL POTATOS SLOT IS REPLACED AND CONFIRMS THEY ARE UP TO SPEED / CLAIMS

One of Guile / Cheery is the Jailkeeper and thus not VT. The other is scum of some flavor.

I’m the RoleCop.

That leaves a pool of Shamrock / Potato’s slot / LordM (scanned as Vanilla or Goon) / Distrubed for possible VTs. One of them is the Vig (either Shamrock or Potato’s slot) and comes out of the pool of possible Mafia. With the lynch on Distrubed (and his resulting flip) we either clear the other two automatically regardless of which Mafian Disturbed or narrow down to one of the remaining two.

So what is going to happen today–

BEFORE WE LYNCH - The Vig is going to claim and claim who he shot N1.

We are going to lynch Disturbed.

What happens at Night –

1. If Distrubed flips Mafia –

This is pretty simple then – the last scum is within Cheery and Guile. The Town Jailkeeper JKs his counter-claimer. This assures the scum don’t get a shot off. The Vig targets whichever of the two he wants. Come daybreak if the Town Jailkeeper is dead the scum is summarily lynched and Town wins. Come daybreak if no-one is dead the Vig tells us who he targeted (who must be the remaining Mafia who was Jailkept and thus protected from kill) and they are lynched for a Town win. Either way Town wins for certain tomorrow via lynch.

2. If Distrubed flips Town-

This is a more complicated scenario but still should result in a likely Town PoE victory if no-one plays ‘hero’ and every Town sticks to the plan.

This would put us at 6 alive with 2 scum. Here are the rules of what each Town should do at Night.

The Vig SHOULD NOT shoot. Numbers are the advantage Town has and even with a 50/50 shot on which VT is a Goon it isn’t a good Town choice. And absolutely no thought about playing hero on the thinking about a JK shot.

I will investigate one of the two Jailkeeper claims and will be able to determine which claim is correct.

The Jailkeeper will JK either the Vig or myself. There is no point WIFOMING which member of the scum team will make the kill. And the scums can't kill the remaining VT (the member in the VT pool is PoEd automatically) or the Town Jailkeeper (this dooms the counter-claimer). So they have to shoot either myself or the Vig. Both of us are dangers as I explain below –

I confirm the which of the JKs is lying.
The Vig, based on the Mafia Wincon language, is a safety valve in the worst case scenario that I outline next.

Regardless of what happens Night 3 (whether the Vig or I die or no-one dies) come Day 4 you MUST lynch one of the two VTs remaining. Again – lynching in the Jailkeeper pool (even if you feel strongly like I do that Cheery is scum) just gives the scum a chance at victory by giving them the JK power to block the Vig (who is a safety value).

If Day 4 the last Vanilla Townie is lynched then Night 4 the Vig shoots them and the Jailkeeper blocks the counter-claimer to assure scum don’t protect the scum in the VT pool. That basically takes it to Day 5 with confirmed Town (Vig or me) to make the choice between JK claims worst case.

Now if Night 3 the scum are stupid and hand us a PoE autolynch so much the better.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Uhh... if Disturbed flips town, and you die tonight, and we lynch the wrong VT tomorrow, there are 2 scum : 2 town alive and the town loses.

Am I missing something?

Yes you are. Read the scum wincondition - they only win when they achieve a

MAJORITY

, or if nothing can change that. So even if it gets to 2 scum 2 Town (Vig and JK) going into Night the Vig can still shoot the Mafia. Actually the Mod would need to confirm but I think a Mafia Jailkeeper / Vig Endgame technically is a draw since the Mafia cannot achieve a majority (1 is not a majority of 2) and can't prevent the Vig from killing them without removing their ability to kill him (Night stalemate). Same as a Town Jailkeeper / Mafia 1-1 endgame.

@MOD - please clarify! Thanks!

[MagnaofIllusion]

The Mafia won't endgame anyone if they haven't achieved a majority and playing out the game could potentially lead to the town winning or a stalemate occurring. Specific scenarios mentioned:
1.) Play will continue if there is a Mafia Backup Jailkeeper and a Mafia Goon vs a Town Vigilante and a Town Jailkeeper.
2.) A Mafia Jailkeeper vs Town Vigilante endgame will result in a stalemate.

@Guile

- I appreciate your wanting to get ideas out there but keep in mind that anything you come up with as an alternative to my plans should pass the smell test re: the above.

MOD – I will be LA from 5pm EST today until Monday morning for my usual family duties.

Please do not vote until I get back from Limited Access. Thanks!

[MagnaofIllusion]

PLEASE NO MORE VOTES WHILE I AM LA

Shamrock and I are the confirmed Town and I want to discuss things with him and officially finalize the plan before proceeding.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Shamrock

– Do you feel comfortable with the following plans –

1. Shooting who you think is scum among Cheery and Guile if Distrubed flips scum.
2. Not shooting under any circumstance if Distrubed flips Town.

Please let me know because I want to make sure at least we are on the same page going into Night. If you don’t please elaborate on the course of action you want to take. I think reading the thread you do but I want our Ts crossed and Is dotted at this stage.

--

@Guile

– Frankly all you have done in Post 761 is re-lay out what I said in more bare-bones terms. Frankly we aren’t lynching either you or Cheery as that gives scum control of the Jailkeep if we lynch wrong which is the WORST course of action. Neither of you is getting lynched unless scum decides to out who is scum between you by killing the other.

--

1.If Disturbed/mhork are the goon, then you won't be able to figure out which j/k is which (unless Im misunderstanding the RC role in this game). (Still I find the assumption here unlikely, but its still a possibility)

I’ll check with the Mod on this but I don’t think, from the Role PMs, that this is the case. I expect that the Jailkeeper would scan Jailkeeper and the Backup would scan as such.

--

I believe that grey was the mafia kill because bitmap was suspected the previous day, I don't see mafia killing someone happily suspected the previous day and would be an easy wagon to set up asa counter wagon to their role cop again day 2.
There is also a post at the start of day 2 where I believe bitmap might have been soft claimed as the vig's target.

HerrR was suspected (at least by me, I could check Day 1 to follow up) and I didn’t suspect Bitmap so I don’t think your argument holds that much weight.

So I have to WIFOM which one of you or the vig is going to be the target instead of the night kill?
I think I'd rather attempt to WIFOM with the scum that is making the kill. (although I guess that is a 1/3 shot instead 1/2) This means if I choose correctly, then if you were the target of the kill you would still get a result, if I'm saving you by blocking you then you won't get the result that clears me.
I am aware that this is different to my attitude last night, however since sham won't be shooting anyway, if I'm agreeing to someone being scum, they won't be getting vigged, and therefore won't have to assume they're going to be the one that will take the killing shot.

I don’t care what you feel like WIFOMING. Sorry to be blunt but you have a 50 / 50 shot of being scum. If you are the Town Jailkeeper then this is a case where you need to nut up and follow a plan as outlined by confirmed Town since you are not such to anyone but yourself. It’s a hit to the ego but the path to basically either a Win or at worst a Draw is predicated on you following the plan if you are the JK.

Please commit that you will follow the plan in your next post

. Thanks!

--

So we can't lynch one of the JKs, because our chances of victory greatly increase with one. What about A_Potato? Has he been confirmed at all?

So answer me the following question – do you think that Scum chose you (who had a sizeable wagon Day 1 and thus has proven to be mislynchable) as their Nightkill target over myself, Shamrock or LordM?

@Everyone

– please pay attention to what you are not seeing in this post and the followup to AngryP at Post 749. What is missing? The consideration that LordM can possibly be scum. If he were a VT and looking at the pool of other players who also contain scum he should be including LordM in his “Let’s lynch them instead” group.

Yet he doesn’t do so – he specifically makes it a “You versus Me” argument with AngryP in 749. Which is a scum omission – he knows my RoleCop on LordM is truly VT.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yes, I'm in full agreement.

Good. Be prepared vote momentarily.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Distrubed

Night Action Plan and Going Forward Points

–

If Distrubed flips Scum

–

1. The Town Jailkeeper targets the counter-claiming final scum to prevent the scum Nightkill.
2. The Town Vig targets the player they think of the two JK claims to be most likely to be scum.
3. I investigate the JK claim I think most likely to be Town (as a side note – the Mod has confirmed that the scum JK investigates discretely from the Town JK).

If no-one dies overnight Shamrock confirms who he targeted (should be scum if everyone follows the plan) . I will also indicate my results for double redundancy. Town wins via lynch.

If Distrubed flips Town

–

1. The Town Vig does not shoot.
2. I investigate one of the JK claims to sort out who is lying.
3. The Town JK randomly selects one of myself / Shamrock (RoleCop or Vig) to Jail and thus protect.

Regardless of how the Night plays out in this scenario Town MUST only lynch from VT claims (AngryP / LordM) unless the scum kills one of the JK claimants. This assures scum do not get their hands on the Jailkeep power unless they are willing to lose a member.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI:

1. Off the top of your head, which of AP/Mhork would you lynch tomorrow if Disturbed flips town?
2. Are you aware you've been spelling "Disturbed" wrong for most of the game?

1. I'd be inclined to lynch AP simply for his predecessors. Om does replace out as scum (Kingdom Hearts Large theme is my personal recent example) and his "MoI is a jerk and makes me like the game less" excuse was full of crap. Looking at VCA with you as Town and keeping Disturbed as Town in mind doesn't unfortunately tell me much.

2. I'm dyslexic and a horrible speller so that would not surprise me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Shammy, Im town as hell right now. I don't always bust out my "Im so obvtown, you are stupid card" but when I do Im town, damnit >.>

Angry, the only person who believes this is you. Regardless of alignment this type of posting serves only to have people want to see you hung sooner than later. Just FYI. Luckily the path to Town Victory was already laid out and thus you are spared.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Guile

GG Town!

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI you forgot your vote tag.

VOTE: Guile

[MagnaofIllusion]

Wait? He was also a Jailkeeper?

Messiah must have messed up.

Dude show some pride. It would have been better to just self-vote.

That's just embarrassing!

[MagnaofIllusion]

So while we wait for the post by the Mod -

Why did you shoot Cheery over Guile Shamrock? After reviewing wagons and intereations Guile was my choice as scum (and my investigation which our lazy Mod never sent a result me on).

[MagnaofIllusion]

Fair enough.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI, either I'm woefully inept and deleted your investigation PM for last night without reading it or I didn't get it somehow. Not sure what's going on there, but I will consider myself fortunate that it's of little consequence. I'll post more later, no time now.

You aren't either. I went to look at my sent messages and it is not there either. Apparently I didn't actually send it but hit Preview and navigated away. In the end it was academic due to Disturbed being Mafia.

I am interested to read the Scum QT myself.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Thanks for the game Messiah! It was well run. You certainly gave me every reason to be on the look out for future games you run.

So my thoughts

–

I think Town generally did a good job, all things considered. Shamrock shooting both Bitmap and director was I think the best Pro-Town result you could expect from shooting two Town. Neither were a PowerRole and both were generally going to draw attention away from actual scum with their play. Had Klick not pulled his 1v1 stupidity I think Nekoko probably would have taken the Rope Day 1 and things could have gone even better for Town.

Dayplay wise I think Guile did the best job of the three scum as he drew by far the least pressure in thread. Also I think he did a good job being the ‘jockey’, as it were, who took the reins in organizing the QT. That’s very important. The decision to pre-emptively claim JK Day 3 probably was Guile’s worst decision.

The Nightplay from scum was So-So. Copping Cheery turned out well but as far as I can tell was just a lucky break. I still can’t piece together why you thought killing Greygnarl was the best choice Night 1. Frankly I think that helped Town more than it helped you. And choosing to not kill me is never a good scum decision. Although I do appreciate you choosing to not do so and letting me

--

@Distrubed

– I think in the Mafia QT you overestimated how Town I felt you were. The only reason I didn’t pressure you when I replaced in was the relative ease with which you got a large wagon and your join date. Your unvote of Nekoko Day 1 obliterated that shield for me given my read on her.

So I had to come up with a plan to save the game. I figured I had to get Cheery Lynched. But then I paniced and Said I blocked Disturbed. 10 minutes later I realized my 2nd fatal mistake in which I should have said that I blocked Cheery instead. That would have gotten us a better chance of winning.

That would not have mattered. With you and Cheery ending up claiming against each other the worst outcome for Town is to give scum the chance to get their hands on the Jailkeep without using the Nightkill. Had you claimed to have jailed Cheery we still would have lynched Disturbed for the same reasons we did yesterday.

I think really a better choice might have been to not Counter-claim and see what Cheery did first. It might have been the case that he didn’t claim immediately in which case you might have been able to push a mislynch on Potato’s slot. Now if he claimed you were screwed but I think once he claimed you were screwed by PoE anyway.

I agree with this.

Well in the future I will definitely check to see if you are in games I replace into because your whiny emo attitude is a pain in the rear to deal with.