Open 465 - Wot's... Uh the Deal? (Game Over! Town Win!)

[ProHawk]

/confirm

[ProHawk]

Glad to see we are getting along with some decent information. Re: Leviathan not confirming right away... sounds more like some experienced scum ploy than a new scum. This is also assuming that he is telling the truth about his experience. Props to mala for getting us out of RVS before it even began.

are you thinking levithan thing was trying to extend the mafia talk time malacat?

^this strikes me as something scum would say. Why are you trying to guess what mala is thinking?

VOTE: pirate mollie

I want to see where

this

goes...

[ProHawk]

Hey Mollie, did you forget that you are scum?

[ProHawk]

haha, not scum but good try so wtf do you make of the blacksmith bizness that malacat and levianthan were banging on about I am town it is not in my role pm nor does the term blacksmith indicate the flavour what are they talking about do you know?

Your role should say either Tracker-Immune or Watcher-Immune. That's probably why you don't see anything about blacksmith bizness. Which one is it by the way?

[ProHawk]

No, first time together. Adam, whats your read on mollie?

[ProHawk]

@Adam, so you don't believe Leviathan's explanation?

[ProHawk]

Adam, you don't have to take this grilling from Mantis, he isn't even laying down a vote... fencing all over the place.

[ProHawk]

EBWOP: Adam, you don't have to take this grilling from Mantis,

he

she isn't even laying down a vote... fencing all over the place.

Sorry Mantis!

[ProHawk]

Shrimp, The explanation is easy. Mollie has a town read on me because I am town.

Adam, its time to get back on the Shrimp wagon. He is heading down the scum-slide.

I don't understand how you all are so confident about lynching Leviathan93 for logging in a bit later.

Leviathan93 is one of the newest players.

Don't you even see that that's not a clear scum tell? We have all day, don't try to quick lynch, it would be a waste of all the precious time town could use for their benefit.

aren't blacksmiths townies?

Shouldn't you know

if you're town? why did you ask?
This CAN be seen as a scum tell.

Leviathan is one of the newest players, yet should know stuff if he is town... I don't buy that half-baked attack. Shrimp, if we are on the topic of scum-slips...

Spoiler: Shrimps damming scum-slip

town

could use for

their

benefit.

I knew you secretly wanted to exclude yourself from our elite group.

In fact, my read on Leviathan93 has increased mainly because of these posts.

And a big

FOS on Leviathan93

You could have fooled me...

Well, this is not one of those websites, the only thing town has in it's advantage is time, so lets use it wisely, and not try to quicklynch.

lol, wtf, who is trying to quick lynch here pretty sure the only person talking about that is you. placing votes is a great way to feel people out is this your first mafia game or what.

^QFT

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Shrimp85

Spoiler: Scum-Slip Confirmation

I play on sites where d1 is typically 24 hours

Well, this is not one of those websites, the only thing

town

has in it's advantage is time, so

lets

use it wisely, and not try to quicklynch.

So now you want to join our elite town group? Yeah, definately a scum slip.

And this is only the tip of the iceberg.

[ProHawk]

Yeah you=scum. You often include yourself when referring to town, except in your slip. So which scum guy are you?

[ProHawk]

You see things that aren't there, what does that tell you?

[ProHawk]

Bah... just realized that if Shrimp honestly thinks post 68 is role-fishing a PR, he prob is obv-town. But good heavens man, you should really read things a bit more closely.

UNVOTE: Shrimp
VOTE: Mollie

Sorry Mollie, yer still not off the hook.

[ProHawk]

Ok, I'll bite. I can't have you hogging the thread all to yourself with your combo and all...

Mantis, lets see some more from you. Hop down from that fence and place your vote with your number one scum read please. Its time.

If you don't I might have to follow scum, and that could lead to devastating results for our elite group.

Would love the current vote count as of the first post on page w/o updates until the next page plz.

[ProHawk]

Re: Letting Shrimp Off

He thought my post was about town PR's. Unless he is a very astute and tricky scummer, he is obv-town. Anyone who got the scum role would know EXACTLY what post 68 was about. With his current playstyle, I would be very, very surprised to see him flip scum.

[ProHawk]

Worried about #158 - The Original being self incriminating without the FIFY #159?

[ProHawk]

So Mala Am I Scum?

[ProHawk]

Answer: Meta analysis is in my experience not a good indication of alignment.

Who wants to maintain the same play-style throughout all of their games? No-one. And this is regardless of alignment.

We all learn things as we play and decide to improve on what doesn't work, while implementing things that do.

Evidence: Compare our Micro Game to my Recently completed town game here. You will see they are drastically different, just as my play here differs.

If you care to do an accurate and thorough meta analysis, you need to read my first scum game here.

When you can explain how my different meta equates to scum, I will say you might have a case. Until then your case on me is more washy than the one I had on Shrimp who scum-slipped as town.

[ProHawk]

Aside from the fact that you think everyone here is a male (I hope the ladies don't hold a grudge for it). Wow, talk about a lot of work (writing and thought) Adam! If you are scum, you

really

want to win this game... +Townie points for you elitist.

I can ride this wagon for a while.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Guille

Mollie, still not off the hook. We can help Adam see eye to eye on you later if needed.

[ProHawk]

LoL @ the stupid way. Thanks Majiffy! On the bright side, it should be less work for you

[ProHawk]

In that case, sorry mate!

[ProHawk]

Mantis, who is scum?

[ProHawk]

Shrimp is town. Please place a vote so I know who the scum is and thanks!

[ProHawk]

i'm not sure what this means? are you thinking i am scum, and that i'm going to place my vote on my other teammate, in order to look good(town cred, etc?)

Are you glued to the fence or something? You don't need to read between the lines, I don't leave a whole lot of space. Your vote will obviously be for scum, so when you put it down I will know where to go. That is unless you are scum and you would vote for one of the elite.

On second thought I like your idea even more. Please do share who your teammate is and if we should go after him with a watcher or a tracker...

[ProHawk]

Nice choice Mantis. +1

[ProHawk]

Shrimp! +1 for seeing backed as past tense in Post #140.

Re: Post #240 - Scum hunting is not for the faint of heart. I will play aggressively in order to get people to take a stand so we can get reads.

Here is what this should say...

How come everyone's got a scum read on guille? Just because he didn't post much?
Just because people don't post much, does not mean they are scum... heck, I almost lynched town before because he didn't post much.
It's not a solid reason to

vote

lynch, I think we should let their inactivity get them replaced if it continues

Votes are one of the most important keys to finding scum. Its easy to track and gives the most info. Votes are a good motivation to get your act together. Voting doesn't equal lynching. If he ends up getting replaced, great, but if not then the votes will help us get more information from him.

I like how i'm the one claiming here and i'm high on shrimp's scum list. =P

You should add early claiming to your notes on scummy behavior. Thx!

So on that note....

Guille

any last words before the blacksmith hammers your head in?

[ProHawk]

Ahh wonderful. So which one of you had the scummiest response to...

So on that note....

Guille

any last words before the blacksmith hammers your head in?

Mala... just kinda pissed off at the speed of things.
Molly, now #244 combined with #247 are great.
Shrimp... just trying to sort things through as usual - ObvTown

In other words, who decided to take that line and twist it to make a case against a townie while attempting to gain town-cred all at the same time? You know who I think it is, buut I will let you decide.

For the record the blacksmith

equal

ProHawk. And I had no intent to hammer.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pirate Molly

The winner Molly it is. PS - the only reason Shrimp and I make a cute couple is cause we are both ObvTown!

Guille, can't wait to see who your vote lands on tonight.

[ProHawk]

Nice try Mantis

Long Posts

equal

Town.
Shots Posts

equal

Scum.

You will most likely not see walls come from me unless we make it to lylo and it is necessary to fish out the last scumbag. Regarding being riled, lead a wagon on me to L-1 and you will see me riled at the rest of my town buddies' foolish blindness.

@Mala - No Intent, Nor Desire oh astute one. You along with Mollie fell into my trap - try not to be too befuddled.

@Rest -

Does anyone

not

see the fishiness in Molly?

She won't put any heat back on me for catching her scumminess early on (in fact she tries to buddy up), until she gets something that she has backup on (Mala) and that appears scummy at first glance?

[ProHawk]

Going to nitpick a bit here. Which is amazingly uncanny for me.

I think you have wayyyy to many innocent reads or gut feels to be exact.

The only two scum reads that you have are because they either posted once or not at all. >.>

ProHawk isn't acting totally innocent to me, but he's acting scummy. He wanted to get Guille a hammer on him without allowing Guille to explain or even having CodeX post his reads or views on any material. To me finding connections based off one post is hard depending on whether or not Codex or Guille were to flip scum.

Plus to label someone "scum" only because you have too many innocent reads isn't that good. It comes off as a "forced" feeling.

^Adam, you are trying to go head-to-head with a professional site tracker here...

[ProHawk]

EBWOP: That quote should not have been in there.... please disregard.

[ProHawk]

I thought that Mala was saying I wanted to hammer, but she said I wanted a hammer, so then the post was irrelevant to quote and I forgot to unclick it.

[ProHawk]

scum tend to bump against the tide

Wholeheartedly disagree.

[ProHawk]

scum tend to be stickier with their foses and their votes while steering the game in the direction they want it to go. gee, who does this remind me of.

Thanks for proving my point. Scum don't bump and grind, they blend and hide.

holy shit you are fucking retarded. I am going to have to reevaluate your skill level. still find you scummy though.

And I shall have to re-evaluate your intelligence level.

[ProHawk]

Hate getting behind...

Adam, you asked me a question in 338, but I think you got it figured out. Let me know if you still need it cleared up.

Mollie, you are only the evil scum-lord to me. (You should really try to point out my intense tunneling on you instead of your AtE... it doesn't seem to be working out so well)

Lev - Really need to hear your so called town-case on our evil scum-lord here. Spill the beans.

Mala - That goes for you too, you have been very quiet about this Mollie bizness.

[ProHawk]

@Maj, Guille unvoted Adam in #360

[ProHawk]

ProHawk: Does me being quiet = scummy? You played before with me and you know exactly what I'm doing.

I am disappointed in this. Nuff Said. Please re-read #378. Quiet

equal

scummy. Quiet wasn't the key word, Mollie was.

Mollie! You almost took my advice, but what I

really

like is how you bait Adam into tunneling you with this AtE "you think im scum but treat me like town" BS, and then accuse him of being sticky. Its quite comical indeed. Your AtE attacks and cries are like a spotlight in my face, can't see much of your content around the blinding light. Dial it back a notch or two. You are looking like a promising lynch today, but I did find one gem in all of the scummy fluff.

guille

got super cranky

and looks like he is

playing it safe

cos why has he not followed his "gut bad pizza read" read and just vote me already cos there is the possibility of

knowing how I will flip

that's why. that is what I mean by playing it safe.

ALL of his posts (few I might add) are like this. What is the deal with these fence sitters this game? Guille, you are taking your sweet time which just may be how you play, but its lookin bad to me. I would much rather see you take time to compile a complete post, instead of leaving us with bits and pieces and have to wait a whole day to get part B.

Sorry Mollie, its time for a new angle.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Guille

Anyone else notice how he managed to make it all the way to L-1, with my voicings of impending doom causing the not so innocent to lash out in anger and he

fails to even mention

anything about it?

Well, there is more where scum Guille is concerned, lets see if anyone else can find the clues...

Guille its time for some real fire beneath your wings. Wagon Ho!

[ProHawk]

i think that she's town. pretty certain actually.

And... what revelation have you that we don't?

Vote Count

Adam-12 (L-4): Malakittens
Leviathan93 (L-4): Pirate Mollie
borkjerfkin (L-4): Leviathan93
Pirate Mollie (L-3): Shrimp85, Adam-12
Malakittens (L-4): Mantisdreamz
Guile (L-4): ProHawk

Not Voting: borkjerfkin

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM EST

[ProHawk]

Can a man not apologize? You should get on this Guille wagon, he needs more pressure.

[ProHawk]

That's fine, but unwarranted.

[ProHawk]

I'm looking forward to it. I will wait on others before I opine on your wagon.

You hear it from the source gents... he wants more votes.

[ProHawk]

Shrimp, Guilles scumminess is in plain sight, but beyond the field of view. Go re-read guille's posts and you should pick some up. If not, give us reasons why you think he is town and we can go from there.

Mollie, only if you are a girl cause guys' radiant beauty generally have no effect on me. Also, you forgot one of the biggest aspects of working with someone. It would also give you the knowledge of what exactly to do to fool the other. You have already refuted your point in a previous post, so this angle isn't a good one to work. Meta cases are weak.

[ProHawk]

Bork, it's too bad you don't have a clue. But you're town so not much I can do about that.

[ProHawk]

And the post you quoted is awful.

Not quite as awful and useless as yours have been bork. As of now you have been completely and utterly useless. Unless you can specifically point out where any of my posts/actions have been "retarted", I maintain my position.

But then again, I am sure you won't surprise me as you have "caught up as I'm gonna get". Way to show us you have the care to put in any effort to help us find scum. #endrantabouttheVI.

[ProHawk]

UNVOTE:

Not good enough Lev. I still have outstanding questions, please address them. Thanks.

[ProHawk]

Ok Jerfkin, I will play. Please make a logical case as to why my switch onto Guille was the opposite of good

[ProHawk]

Ok Jerfkin, I will play. Please make a logical case as to why my switch onto Guille was the opposite of good

[ProHawk]

Ever heard of scum-hunting? We don't need to lynch Mollie right now, and Guille

is

playing scummy, he needs pressure.

What say you of the fact he is absolutely silent regarding being lynched? I am not making a final argument to lynch Guille, but am hunting therefore I don't need a stone-wall argument.

So in your eyes, my words don't match my actions because I say that Mollie is a good lynch, but switch my vote to Guille? Not-buying-it.

[ProHawk]

"joke's on them I was only faking being

retarded

" because that's pretty much what you're doing here. His jump off Mollie in #449 is

awful

And the post you quoted is

awful.

Lynch prohawk.

His switch onto Guille was the

opposite of good.

You're not supposed to buy it. You're supposed to

die

.

This makes up about a good 50% of your content. I am the only one here that gets the honor of your demeaning tone. It is clear that 1) my play thus far has not been awful, and 2) that you have some sort of death wish on my head regardless of my alignment.

If I didn't believe that you are town, I would be all over your for your sub-par play. You can either drop the Village Idiot act, or get to helping us find scum. Read the whole thread yet? Your reads are way off due to your lack of commitment.

[ProHawk]

2) What info has he divined from it so far?

You're joking right? Can someone please tell me this is a joke? Go read Guille's posts and tell me what info Guille has given anyone since my vote switch. All I got was Guille saying basically "Good luck with that" and then a vote post on Mollie.

[ProHawk]

Mollie, has to do with our differing opinions on scum bumping against town.

[ProHawk]

You need to vote whomever you are working on getting a real read from. Mollie and Guille are my top two picks at the moment. Levi needs to get in here and make some noise or I don't condone him living to LYLO even if he is town.

[ProHawk]

@Prohawk -- what do you think of Guille's case on Mollie, then?

His last post pretty closely mirrors my own sentiments regarding Mollie. However it greatly lowers the probability of Mollie being scum with Guille. A Guille scum flip would essentially clear Mollie as well as a Mollie scum flip would essentially clear Guille.

Again, hunting

equal

tunneling. Just so we are clear, my read on Mollie is still scummy, but we aren't at critical lynching point yet. Right now we are voting to apply pressure and give us some reads, or are you suggesting the day is done and we should move on?

[ProHawk]

Two things Mollie ~

My apologies were sarcastic, and not sincere, which

guilt

.
We have not given you a chance to hide and blend in, you were in the spotlight since we first started.

[ProHawk]

Molly, your scummy side is showing again.

You can't try and paint yourself town because you don't think you fit my scum status-quo. When the time is right, we will cover this all again.

For your questions, Bork is town because he came into the game and garnered negative attention right from the get-go. Post #558 is just icing on his townie-cake.

Your question of research really doesn't matter because meta cases are weak and usually wrong. You also do realize that he used that research to paint you as scum and being inconsistent right? Scum can and will do additional work if it will help further their cause.

[ProHawk]

do you see how it kind of looks like how it is a sweet set up for a double town lynch?

Allow me to show you what my realization really paints with simple equations.

Mollie and Guille are not scum together. Therefore...
If Mollie flips scum, this adds major town points to Guille.
If Guille flips scum, this adds major town points to Mollie.

If Mollie flips town, this says nothing absolute toward the alignment of Guille.
If Guille flips town, this also says nothing absolute toward the alignment of Mollie.

Hence, my statement doesn't setup anything even remotely close to a double town lynch.

[ProHawk]

Reading other games is looking for meta.

Pray-tell what negative attention did you intentionally garner?

@Pirate Mollie:

The only other game that you used the word Grooming was the Newbie 1286 game.

I don't want to read through it, can you give me a summary of where that got you, considering you were town in that game.

Conclusion: Adam has the best case on Mollie, and I agree with him.

She is inconsistent.

She overreacts to certain accusations and her OMGUS is off the charts.

See bold. It sure looks like he is trying to use it to support his conclusion of you being inconsistent to me.

@Adam, my statement was in no way linking two scum together, but rather just the opposite - read my equation if you are confused.

[ProHawk]

Oh Guille.... where are you?

[ProHawk]

I don't even get what you are asking, but I would rather finish my read on Guille before I get back to tunneling you.

[ProHawk]

Levi - I am so glad that you can quote a post. Now lets hear your

real

thoughts.

[ProHawk]

Levi!!! You are killing me. If you can, without going back to look at the post you quoted, paraphrase the whole thing, then I might believe you actually agree with it - the whole thing.

You quoted a post, and said "I agree". This is the most lazy, lackluster post full of nothing. You are being lazy and not contributing. If I didn't have you on my list of prob-town, you would be due for a D1 lynch. Keep it up and you will be the D2 lynch.

[ProHawk]

Mollie, just one question for you that should clear things up. Does a square scum fit into a round hole?

[ProHawk]

I figured you would like my question. Although I have a general starting point for who I view as scum-candidates, not all scum fit nicely into a picturesque box of equals. Therefore, my ideal picture of scum is not the end-all solution to finding scum. You cannot paint yourself as town because you don't fit my definition, and trying to say I am scum because I am going after someone that doesn't fit exactly with my ideal picture is just as ludicrous.

[ProHawk]

Remind me next time I address Levi to be explicitly clear. Let's take a look at Levi's post in question.

Spoiler: Extremely Long Quote

Shrimp, Guilles scumminess is in plain sight, but beyond the field of view. Go re-read guille's posts and you should pick some up. If not, give us reasons why you think he is town and we can go from there.

Mollie, only if you are a girl cause guys' radiant beauty generally have no effect on me. Also, you forgot one of the biggest aspects of working with someone. It would also give you the knowledge of what exactly to do to fool the other. You have already refuted your point in a previous post, so this angle isn't a good one to work. Meta cases are weak.

I somewhat disagree with you hawk boy. lol, just got into a post game discussion with majiffy over this cos he pretty much agrees with you. I use meta when it is a player that I know pretty well. like I know their work schedules, sleep schedules, etc. meta is not the only scumhunting tool I have in my box, I use different things for different games. in some games meta is the

only

tool I have cos some players will be so objectively scummy game after game and lynching or fosing doesn't seem to have an effect on them so they are not going to improve their game no matter what you do so you have to learn their town tells and most definitely their special tells. <----- do you guys call these relative tells here?

meta or pattern-matching should not be used when you are new or if you suck at it. it is only an asset if you can provide consistent reasoning behind what they are thinking or how they are posting in the game but then when it comes to making cases based on meta alone you are right it is pretty weak and you have to develope a reputation for it in order to get people to listen to you. but sometimes I have known who scum were on d2 just by the nk choice alone and that is a meta thing.

having said all of that my town read on mantis

is

meta based cos of her hardcore wk of adam which tbh I don't fully understand but then she often sees things that I don't. her posts look genuine to me but I get why this looks suspicious to other people who don't know us or our history or why we would think the way that we do.

the thing is that I have been a part of more town wins as town by finding town rather than just trying to find scum. you make me nervous cos I am not entirely sure what as scum you are capable of. if I had a barometer of what your scum game looked like you would be easier to read and no I am not going to look at your previous games cos I am not in them. I reaction test in a different way and I am not about to give up what I am looking for. I have shifted you to town but probably for reasons you might not understand. I am more of a lateral thinker.

I definitely see this as being pro town or a townish thing to say. Mollie feels town to me.

While in this post you did not state "I agree" you said you did in post #589 which is where I was coming from.

Now it may be easy for you to understand what part of the post is "pro town or a townish thing to say", but us on the outside who cannot look inside your head don't understand. Take a look at the following Levi: This is a point by point content breakdown of the post you quoted.

1) Mollie somewhat disagrees with ProHawk
2) Mollie gets into a post game discussion with Majiffy over meta.
3) Mollie uses meta cases on players she knows well.
4) Sometimes Mollie's only tool is meta due to players consistently playing scummy
5) Mollie says people who are new or suck at meta should not use it.
6) Mollie agrees with Prohawk that meta cases alone are pretty weak.
7) Mollie says you need a reputation in order for people to listen to you.
8) Mollie feels that night kill analysis is a meta thing.
9) Mollie's town read on Mantis is 100% meta.
10) Mollie doesn't fully understand Mantis' hardcore wk (work?) of Adam.
11) Mollie feels that Mantis often sees things she doesn't.
12) Mollie believes that Mantis' posts feel genuine.
13) Mollie understands why her meta case on Mantis looks suspicious to others.
14) Mollie wins more games as town by finding town rather than just finding scum.
15) Prohawk causes nervous feelings in Mollie because she doesn't know what he is capable of as scum.
16) Mollie feels with a barometer of ProHawk's scum game he would be easier to read.
17) Mollie refuses to read ProHawk's scum game.
18) Mollie reaction tests in a different way.
19) Mollie shifts ProHawk to her town list but for reasons ProHawk might not understand.
20) Mollie self claims a lateral thinker.

Now Levi.... which is it exactly? Do you think 1-(Mollie somewhat disagrees with ProHawk) is pro-town or townish? Is it 1-4, 1-9, 4-9, 9-20, all of the above? I know my personal favorite is #17 - Mollie refuses to read ProHawk's scum game. Do you understand why post #586 does nothing for us? You may as well have just said Mollie feels town to me. We got about the same amount of information.

Post #619/620 & 621 is getting better... confusing, but at least it gives us a little bit of what you are thinking.

Re: 625 - Who cares if you "claimed" town? You are by no means confirmed and have provided us with little to base reads on. If scum is smart you will live a long and fruitful life until we lynch you, you improve your play, or we win. I am not even going to go down the road of explaining why keeping you around to LYLO with your current play is certain death for us.

[ProHawk]

And now I am upset that you forced me to wall

[ProHawk]

You take actual notes? You work way harder than I do

[ProHawk]

Calm... a little too calm if you ask me. He was up on the lynching block twice. Oh Guille, you have earned bonus points for making more than one post today, but you still failed to comment on your wagon which you promised to do.

I need to see what you have to say before I delve into your logical inconsistencies. Thanks!

[ProHawk]

Good Levi, keep it up. We need to see more of this from you. Unfortunately, you will never be confirmed town unless I can get an unintentional town-slip out of you like I did from Shrimp, however from my experience this is very rare.

[ProHawk]

Levi, bolded below is a heavy unintentional town-slip. Do you see why?

By the way, I just realized this while skimming through ISO's...
Pirate mollie, did you seriously just claim to be a PR? post 66.
NEVER, I mean, NEVER do that...
And WTF Prohawk, I can't believe you just posted that. Post 68

You are seriously asking her to give her PR role out?

Spoiler: Post #68

Your role should say either Tracker-Immune or Watcher-Immune. That's probably why you don't see anything about blacksmith bizness. Which one is it by the way?

Spoiler: Post #158 - The Explanation

He thought my post was about town PR's. Unless he is a very astute and tricky scummer, he is obv-town. Anyone who got the scum role would know EXACTLY what post 68 was about. With his current playstyle, I would be very, very surprised to see him flip scum.

[ProHawk]

lol just saw this in post edit:

those of us who are scum

LOL.

VOTE: leviathan

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mollie

[ProHawk]

Levi, why are you quoting post #143? All the explanation about town PR/town-slip you can find in #68 and #158

[ProHawk]

levi if you are town I feel your pain. like for realz.

it looked like a scum slip to me.

You should be lynched on this premise alone. His grammar is consistent with his overall voice ala

not

a scum-slip.

[ProHawk]

I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt Mollie, I thought maybe you were working an angle, which is why I voted you without any explanation, but Post #676 clearly states to the contrary.

[ProHawk]

Hey Mala, lets see some real content from you. K. Thx.

[ProHawk]

Truthfully tho, there were alot of posts over the weekend and I'm wondering if you have commented on them definitively.

^This

Last scum-hunting attempt I see is post #313 for Adam which you have completely dropped but maintain a vote.

[ProHawk]

you're implying that they're cheating. If it's the former, say so. If it's not, well, that's incredibly disrespectful without some serious proof, and is something you'd take up with the moderator and not post in thread*

^This.

Vote Count

Adam-12 (L-4): Malakittens
Pirate Mollie (L-2): Shrimp85, Guile, ProHawk
Mantisdreamz(L-4): borkjerfkin
borkjerfkin (L-4): Adam-12
Leviathan (L-4): Pirate Mollie

Not Voting: leviathan93, Mantisdreamz

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM EST

[ProHawk]

^Fluff, this has already been established. Where is your content?

[ProHawk]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mala

Fine Mala. If motivation is what it takes...

[ProHawk]

Funny coming from someone who feels my sarcastic apologies were douchey

[ProHawk]

Come on guys, I know I am not the only one that finds Mala's lack of content suspect.

[ProHawk]

Nice save levi... hah

[ProHawk]

Then getting lynched should relieve you of some time right?

[ProHawk]

Busy enough to not contribute, but not busy enough to go V/LA, prod dodge with fluffy posts, or get upset when

called out

... voted with pressure.

Mala, you need to be useful now, you are just as likely to be scum as the next guy and the more information you give us to work with, the quicker we can catch you before you kill us all.

RE: School, yes it is final time (at least for me), but I am not asking for you to wall, or take hours, but you aren't doing

anything

.

[ProHawk]

It's now Tuesday night. Give me a commitment when you will begin to contribute and I will get off your case until then.

[ProHawk]

If he wasn't trying to ask the question to prove a point, I was wrong. My scum read of Guille has been slipping since he started posting, and I dropped my vote from him. Or are you asking me about the meta case?

[ProHawk]

Pray-tell

what negative attention did you intentionally garner?

wrt my bold: you are spinning this. I drew negative attention at my entrance into the thread which you voted on didn't you?

Spinning is just Mollie's way of saying I don't like what you posted but can't logically refute your point.

Spoiler: Mollie's Grandiose Entrance

are you thinking levithan thing was trying to extend the mafia talk time malacat?

okay I want to see where this goes

VOTE: levianthan93

also mantis you need to get in here so I can get a read on you!!!

You tell me how I am spinning it, cause i'm not. Her posts themselves did not garner any negative attention until specific scrutiny was brought to them.

RE: Scum looking up another game for an argument. It is more than possible.

[ProHawk]

If I am spinning it, why can't you point out exactly what/where the spin is?

[ProHawk]

Re-post please cause I musta missed it.

[ProHawk]

Mala, why I am I getting the feeling that school is

not

in your way at the moment?

[ProHawk]

Mala, your links dont work, can you fix them please?

[ProHawk]

Mala, if you can't link, can you address which posts you were wanting to comment on so I can do the work myself?

[ProHawk]

Bork, can you post some points as to why she needs pressure?

[ProHawk]

Not enough for me, I will wait for Mala.

[ProHawk]

Also, pro, I have supplied content, besides the links not working. Why do you still have your vote on me?

The better question is why does this bother you.....? My vote stays until I can get an accurate read. The sooner you finish your broken post, the sooner I make my decision.

[ProHawk]

You posted, but I have yet to analyze it properly. My pressure was because you were acting strange. I am currently in the process of reading your fixed post, kudos to Mantis.

[ProHawk]

Hold your horses Mala, if/when I need to make you lynch priority #1 you can defend yourself then. Let me finish my analysis.

[ProHawk]

the game is pretty much fucked for me at this point and I would consider subbing out

You can add this to the whole anti-town attitude. Obviously doesn't care if we win or not cause she's already ready to sub-out.

[ProHawk]

Mala, can I just say your wall was one of the most annoying ones to read because I had to open each link in a new tab just to see what you were talking about. Please just quote them next time. You acting suspicious = an increasing amount of useless posts as the day progressed.

Here are a few points I found interesting and would like clarification on:

1)

Hey Pro, why did you poke at me for saying the same thing as Levi, but didn't say the same thing to Levi in his post #708.

-

I couldn't figure out what you were talking about here. Clarify what I poked you for but not Levi please.

2) In your TL;DR you wrote.

"I'm going to watch ProHawk, I don't trust him. Leaning scum."

-

Yet, you only reference me three times in your post. Once with a question, and two links. None of which I can find any case that would support your conclusion. I find it odd that your strongest scum read to come out of your analysis received the least amount of attention in your post.

3) You tell Mantis & Mollie to stop buddying twice and Levi to stop sucking up to Bork.

-

I find this odd again because I would award the greatest buddying award here to Adam and I. So what was the reason you decided to omit us from your anti-buddying crusade?

4) No real scum reads?

-

After all of your catching up, you fail to determine scum? What would have been the harm in throwing your vote on me after your analysis, considering I was the strongest of all your reads? Explain.

My vote sticks for now.

[ProHawk]

You gotta be joking!

The question is if she is frustrated scum.

I wasn't joking when I said it was the most anti-town thing she has said so far. In reality, if she is scum its the smartest thing she could do for her team because it ideally gives her replacement a "fresh-start" because we cannot question her replacement about anything that transpired prior to him entering the game.

Mala, I still need answers to my questions, but we need to lynch Mollie today.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mollie Pirate

[ProHawk]

Mostly scum because she chose to replace out for being in a deep dark hole with no way of escaping. If you could care less to read anything, then I don't need to give you another wall.

[ProHawk]

Adam - its not a policy lynch. Just look at why she replaced out and you can find the answer.

[ProHawk]

Mala, your answers aren't equating, care to give it another round?

Also I promise to not use teal anymore if you promise to quote posts instead of link them. Which color would you prefer?

[ProHawk]

Thor,

If you're implying that I hadn't voted her before she replaced out, your ignorance precludes you.

So you are going to argue that if you are town and are the one that looks the most like scum in the thread that you should go ahead and replace out? Here is why it is way more advantageous for scum to pull that stunt. More scum than town makes a scum death extremely more detrimental to their win condition. Therefore if Mollie, as scum, would be able to get a fresh body in her slot, then he/you would be offered a fresh start. You wouldn't have to answer for any of the scummy play of Mollie because you aren't her. It's the best she could do to help her team win.

What has Mollie pretty much thrown as AtE this whole game?

also

I do not mind getting lynched I have no ego invested in perfect score of not getting lynched cos I play to maximise the info for my team

regardless of my role not so that I can sit back on my laurels and say "oh I have only been lynched as town once" lol.

the game is pretty much fucked for me at this point and I would consider subbing out but it is 10 days until until the deadline.

These two posts are enough to lynch on regardless of the other points of scummy evidence she has provided us with thus far because it's obvious she

did

care about getting lynched or she wouldn't have replaced out.

[ProHawk]

I'm pretty sure my answers were straightforward.

Really? Because the way some of your answers stand you serve to be voted for the same reason you are voting Levi.

[ProHawk]

For anyone who cares to hammer, I am good with ending the day now. We have plenty to work with in terms of evidence for D-2 after the flip.

[ProHawk]

Is that who you would kill? Adam?

[ProHawk]

If/when that occurs, we cross that bridge at that time. I am not going to play theory games with you. For those of you willing to let Thor replace in and take the reigns, we will have to start from ground zero on that slot. I am going to say it again because Thor seems to like it. Meta cases are null and extremely weak.

[ProHawk]

Thor, its nothing personal with you, you just replaced into a ticking time-bomb courtesy of Pirate Molly.

And you failed to address the main reason you need to be lynched while trying to pressure me. Your case on

you

your slot was already summed up in two quotes. Go reference it and get back to me.

[ProHawk]

EBWOP: Should read "My case on your slot"

[ProHawk]

Funny that you are throwing all kinds of ad-hom attacks my way while saying I should drop scum-tells.

1) Go read my case and stop being lazy.
2) Honestly, I don't think you will so I haven't compiled any evidence toward the fact, but believe me after 37 pages, its there.
3) I don't like her play as it stands, but am not willing to pursue it today unless your wagon drops.

[ProHawk]

I swear I can't type tonight....

EBWOP: Should read "while saying I should stop dropping scum-tells"

[ProHawk]

I am not laying a case for Thor. My case is for Mollie period. If we are honestly going down that road then we need a full ten days to get an accurate read of Thor.

[ProHawk]

Thor, you just dismiss everything I say, so I refuse to play your smug game. If anyone else can't see it and wants me to point it out just ask.

[ProHawk]

Adam, it doesn't matter. He isn't going to argue that his slot is scum and he didn't make the slips so he isn't responsible for them. Thor does not equal Mollie because all of the evidence has to do with a specific player and Thor is not her. The only evidence that can be used later in conjunction with that slot is the fact that it started out as scummy.

[ProHawk]

The choice today is me or Thor. Lynch me right now if you seriously want to let Thor start fresh. I refuse to sit here and watch him de-scum a scum slot. The thing that pisses me off the most is seeing Pirate Mollie in the thread watching this all go down and laugh at the irony of it all.

[ProHawk]

Thor is clearly spinning.

I don't know how much more clearly this ^ can be stated. Every attack on him or Molly is clearly silly in his words.

Maybe

everyone else should improve?

I've actually been doing quite well.

The problem is

not many of you seem to understand

what scum and town tells are and are reacting in odd ways to the info you have

I would also like to point out that any logical case will be treated in the same fashion.

Anyone want to explain the case on me

so I can make fun of it?

Hint: It's a Day 1 wagon and is probably

incredibly silly.

See why it's pointless to sit and argue with him?

1. Link?
2. Like what - just give me one example read you'd get from it?
3. Meaning she's your #2 scumspect?

[4.]You also didn't explain the hypocrisy from Mollie after I totally wuss slapped your 'this is all the case needed' case - why not come back at me if that is such a brilliant case-closed moment?

Now that I have had time to sleep and cool off from Mollie's terrible play and personal gambit I will address the issue at hand that Thor keeps dangling around like bait.

1.

Spoiler: Posts I have made against Molly

Glad to see we are getting along with some decent information. Re: Leviathan not confirming right away... sounds more like some experienced scum ploy than a new scum. This is also assuming that he is telling the truth about his experience. Props to mala for getting us out of RVS before it even began.

are you thinking levithan thing was trying to extend the mafia talk time malacat?

^this strikes me as something scum would say. Why are you trying to guess what mala is thinking?

VOTE: pirate mollie

I want to see where

this

goes...

Ahh wonderful. So which one of you had the scummiest response to...

So on that note....

Guille

any last words before the blacksmith hammers your head in?

Mala... just kinda pissed off at the speed of things.
Molly, now #244 combined with #247 are great.
Shrimp... just trying to sort things through as usual - ObvTown

In other words, who decided to take that line and twist it to make a case against a townie while attempting to gain town-cred all at the same time? You know who I think it is, buut I will let you decide.

For the record the blacksmith

equal

ProHawk. And I had no intent to hammer.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pirate Molly

The winner Molly it is. PS - the only reason Shrimp and I make a cute couple is cause we are both ObvTown!

Guille, can't wait to see who your vote lands on tonight.

Nice try Mantis

Long Posts

equal

Town.
Shots Posts

equal

Scum.

You will most likely not see walls come from me unless we make it to lylo and it is necessary to fish out the last scumbag. Regarding being riled, lead a wagon on me to L-1 and you will see me riled at the rest of my town buddies' foolish blindness.

@Mala - No Intent, Nor Desire oh astute one. You along with Mollie fell into my trap - try not to be too befuddled.

@Rest -

Does anyone

not

see the fishiness in Molly?

She won't put any heat back on me for catching her scumminess early on (in fact she tries to buddy up), until she gets something that she has backup on (Mala) and that appears scummy at first glance?

lol just saw this in post edit:

those of us who are scum

LOL.

VOTE: leviathan

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mollie

levi if you are town I feel your pain. like for realz.

it looked like a scum slip to me.

You should be lynched on this premise alone. His grammar is consistent with his overall voice ala

not

a scum-slip.

Pray-tell

what negative attention did you intentionally garner?

wrt my bold: you are spinning this. I drew negative attention at my entrance into the thread which you voted on didn't you?

Spinning is just Mollie's way of saying I don't like what you posted but can't logically refute your point.

Spoiler: Mollie's Grandiose Entrance

are you thinking levithan thing was trying to extend the mafia talk time malacat?

okay I want to see where this goes

VOTE: levianthan93

also mantis you need to get in here so I can get a read on you!!!

You tell me how I am spinning it, cause i'm not. Her posts themselves did not garner any negative attention until specific scrutiny was brought to them.

RE: Scum looking up another game for an argument. It is more than possible.

You gotta be joking!

The question is if she is frustrated scum.

I wasn't joking when I said it was the most anti-town thing she has said so far. In reality, if she is scum its the smartest thing she could do for her team because it ideally gives her replacement a "fresh-start" because we cannot question her replacement about anything that transpired prior to him entering the game.

Mala, I still need answers to my questions, but we need to lynch Mollie today.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mollie Pirate

2. I am not going to make a case based on theoreticals that have yet to occur. But here is one association I did notice early-on.

Allow me to show you what my realization really paints with simple equations.

Mollie and Guille are not scum together. Therefore...
If Mollie flips scum, this adds major town points to Guille.
If Guille flips scum, this adds major town points to Mollie.

If Mollie flips town, this says nothing absolute toward the alignment of Guille.
If Guille flips town, this also says nothing absolute toward the alignment of Mollie.

Hence, my statement doesn't setup anything even remotely close to a double town lynch.

3. I am not worried about #2 scumspect's until you are lynched.

4. My brilliant "case-closed" moment

Thor says.

There is no actual hypocrisy in saying "I do not mind being lynched" and "I think town would benefit from someone else in my slot"

Mollie says nothing of the sort about town benefiting from someone else in her slot. Her words were the game is "f*cked for me". The real issue here boils down to motivation. I am not only saying she is being hypocritical, I am also saying she is playing to survive. This is scum's #1 game and she knows it. She even pointed it out herself.

my team's win condition is not dependent on my survivability but scum's certainly is.

I would rather not be around for end of game wifom with this much aggro drawn on me so early on trying to paint this as scummy makes you look disgustingly scummy.

See bold. Why did she replace out? She said specifically because the game was over for her, she knew she was going to be lynched when she was put at L-1. So she did what she knew she could to survive. Now which side depends on her survivability again? She said it herself. I am not even going to count the number of times she said she was ok with her lynch and how she was helping the town with AtE because its deafening.

Thor Says:

Oh, you're saying scum request replacement more than town?
I'd actually be happy to put money on a bet saying you're wrong.

This statement may be valid, but the real question is, how many town players replace out

because

they are about to be lynched? I am sure lots of town players and scum players replace out because they don't have the time to invest in the game, or get bored. I have only seen scum replace out because they are on the lynching table. I don't really a lot of evidence for this, considering my lack of experience, but I would love to see some examples -Thor- of town players replacing out due to the probability of them being lynched. You fail to take into account the motivation factor.


Also, for anyone who cares Re:

I actually don't think I've done any ad hom attacks - of course, but feel free to point out the personal attacks against you I'v emade.

Spoiler: Ad Hom Attacks

And yet my reading comprehension is better than yours.

Personal Attack.

- That's not the main reason, I'm still trying to get you to use your words and describe the main reason. But I'll address it

(because I don't dodge things)

Personal Attack.

Oh gawds no. That would be almost as derpy as claiming anyone who did tat was scum - clearly neither conclusion holds any logic at all.

I claimed that scum would be the one to replace out, therefore I am derpy. Personal Attack.

Funny 'hurm' or funny 'ha-ha'. I actually don't think I've done any ad hom attacks - of course, but feel free to point out the personal attacks against you I'v emade.
None?
Okay then.

No time for me to respond before insinuating that I am making things up? Personal Attack.

[ProHawk]

Guille, I gave you seven posts to look at so it should be pretty simple for you. Check out the spoiler in #976. I would agree with you

IF

that player was replaced for inactivity and not for strategic reasons.

[ProHawk]

*slow clap*

Wow Thor. You should just lynch me now because I am scum. Shoot me now.

[ProHawk]

I am not going to sit here and make this an arguing fest especially when we are already 40 pages in on Day 1 because everything I say you have some sort of sarcasm, rebuttal, or contradiction to. I have made my case, you can continue to throw out your manipulators. Everyone else can make their own choice.

[ProHawk]

Yes, he is obv-town.

[ProHawk]

No Thor, I will not have a pissing contest with you.

If I replied to your post, it would just go back and forth me telling you how it doesn't work that way, and you telling me that I am scum and am completely off base.

Its clear you think you are the best mafia player of the year, and I am some nobody. So lets just leave it at that. Everyone else can go look at your evidence and decide for themselves.

[ProHawk]

She has a pairing on me with Bork, although he did vote for me right when he replaced in.

[ProHawk]

Why are you fencing Mala?

[ProHawk]

I did read your post, his answer would put him in a higher scum-category than me? I think there is some sort of aversion for you voting me, this is the second time I noticed your reluctance despite your distaste for me.

[ProHawk]

Duly Noted.

[ProHawk]

So I am willing to explain myself now, and drop the whole Thor vs. me crusade.

I was mainly pissed that a player would cop-out so easily when a) she wasn't inactive b) was still around to keep up with the game (you can say she was just in the forum and not the thread, how about you ask her mantis?) and c) didn't have an honest excuse to quit except to say "I rage quit, have fun!" (Paraphrased). I cannot stand players that commit to playing a game (any-game really, DOTA is one that comes to mind actually) and quit before its over its just a cop-out, makes the game less fun to play, and it just plain irks me. In my view she/her slot deserves to be lynched on policy more than anything.

With that said, I wholly believe that my reasoning behind her sub-out is sound and likely to be true. I wasn't making it up. Despite my belief that she should be policy lynched, I still think that there is a high probability of scum sitting in that slot, as well as helping us glean information from the flip.

Although, Mantis I can see where you are coming from about Mollie's town-motivation for subbing out except one critical point. Why would anyone believe they were going to live to LYLO when they were at L-1? Why wouldn't she have considered a replacement the

first

time she said that she shouldn't live to LYLO?

Hey Thor, I have a question for you. If you were to flip town, who would look the worst for the flip?

[ProHawk]

What semi-fake push? You still need to by lynched.

[ProHawk]

So if I were scum, and I were to look the worst for lynching someone whose flip I would already know (as scum) why would I intentionally commit self-suicide through my crusade?

[ProHawk]

I am not a moron Thor, keep painting me as one and it might work out better for you.

[ProHawk]

Post 1037 was my realization that the way I was playing was not pro-town despite my own feeling regarding the matter at hand.

[ProHawk]

I am no-longer tunnel visioned on your lynch. I rescind my statement that its either you or me to be lynched.

[ProHawk]

My side adventure is waiting on a post from Guille, so I will wait for her post Guille post. And you still need to be lynched so my vote on you is just fine and dandy where its at.

[ProHawk]

Which statement are you referring to? My rescinding statement, or the fact that I am not going to keep tunneling you to the end of the day?

[ProHawk]

@Thor - Because I was pissed and would rather be lynched than see Mollie's scum gambit work.

[ProHawk]

What exactly is a vote count of a wagon on scum?

[ProHawk]

Or your partner is someone who has been avoiding you in order to not get taken down for defending you and trying to start a counter wagon when you flip scum. Would you like some cheese with your wine sir?

So you want me to continue to tunnel you? I noticed that my previous play was not the most helpful at finding scum, so I am willing to sacrifice my personal vendetta to help out. In any-case does it look like I am backing off?

[ProHawk]

How thick is your skull Thor? You should really go have it checked out.

[ProHawk]

Thor, the fact is I cannot out-argue you and so I won't. Your years of experience, combined with your tunnel-vision will keep you spinning until I pass out. How is this scummy that I won't go toe to toe with you like Adam? Which questions have I not answered from you?

Your case on me as I see it.

Spoiler: Evidence

There isn't a case on me - and your frothing insistence that there is, that it is valid, and that I need lynching, while not actually wanting to engage in debates and constantly claiming me dismissing your cases somehow proves your cases are stronger (When, I would think, that would prove they are weaker) is why you are scum.

- Building a case on Thor while not wanting to engage in debates.

Spoiler: Evidence

@Mantis - you did note how he came at me with his master case of the "contradiction" (which wasn't even a contradiction.
Then admitted that his "this is enough to lynch you right now" came from a place where he also asmitted that HE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW IF IT WAS OR WASN'T A VALID SCUMTELL.
He then challenged me to prove it wasn't valid (the opposite of how reality is supposed to work.
And that I then did so...and he NEVER SPOKE OF IT AGAIN.

Town?

- Wanted to lynch Thor without being 100% sure of him being scum.
- Doesn't comment on every point Thor brings up.

Spoiler: Evidence

Him ignoring rebuttals he asked for and still sticking to the same case in light of new information is blatantly not pro-town.

- Doesn't comment on every point Thor brings up.
- Sticks to the same case in light of new information.

Spoiler: Evidence

Ah, right, it was ProHawk who wanted me hammered before I could talk.
My bad, he's so pro-town in how he's handled reacting to me I was shocked to think of that as him.

- Wanted Thor hammered before he could talk.

Spoiler: Evidence

His calling for the hammer is immaterial to that case except insomuch as it shows his salivation desire for a lynch of me.
His lack of internal logic and bulldog intent are the actual cohesive scumtells.

If you want to sit close to your chest for a while I'll allow it - other people probably need some towncred via voting him anyway.

- Lack of internal logic and bulldog intent.

Did I miss anything?

[ProHawk]

I think the biggest issue with Thor is that most of his comments are dealing with absolutes in a game of probability. Scum-Tell in itself? Not really, but it

is

suspicious the way he is using it.

One of the issues that sticks out to me is his wagon analysis:

The rest of the game lurks.

There isn't a counterwagon to Thor.
No one seems to understand what this means, even as they can't point at any scum bussing me.

Thor shakes his head in sadness.

So if there isn't a counterwagon to Thor then Thor must be town? Otherwise rephrased as - All Scum Wagons have Counter-Wagons? Does that interpretation sound mis-repped for the above quote? Thor clears it up for us later.

Post#1058 - He states more clearly "This is

not

the vote count of a wagon on scum."

Well - if I am scum and my partner(s) think I'm useful - in which case there should be someone calling me not scum and pushing on another wagon. Where is the alternate wagon of any note? None? Who is calling me town? No one? Riiiight.

And, yet, it's still being hard to lynch me.

One scum is voting me already, and the other scum is hoping to stay off.
Adam is town.
Shrimp or you are scum - and you're the one frothing about the lynch.
Your buddies are currently hiding in the reeds hoping town helps push this through.
If you *and* Adam were town, and Shrimp was the scum, a scum would have been more content to get on as the 4th vote.
A scum would not be so happy to be 4th if you are scum as 3rd.
That's why you need lynching.

Scum-buddies that think their partner is useful will always defend their partner and push for another wagon? There aren't any other options?
Only scum would froth about a lynch?
No scum would ever vote back-to-back?

Or your partner is someone who has been avoiding you in order to not get taken down for defending you and trying to start a counter wagon when you flip scum.

1. Then that partner would be voting me

Scum will now either defend their partner and start a counter wagon, or bus if they aren't doing the first.

His response to my post is the final proof that he only views things in absolutes and not probabilities. My response to his theory was a possibility that he had not mentioned. His response was to strengthen his original theory while dismantling mine. There cannot be any other possibility with Thor.

That you are claiming there is only one way to take it is why you look scummy in making that argument.

I believe this is quite to the point. If indeed I am scummy for only taking it one way, then what does that make you who refuses to consider any other possible scum action besides a defense/counter wagon or bussing?

Second point. Thor came into the game with the goal to switch the wagon onto someone else. This could be argued that a townie would also want to get out of being lynched, but normally townies try to find scum to lynch. Thor has

yet

to make an attempt at finding scum.

1) Thor refuses to read anything that previously transpired in this game which would be useful in catching scum.

Since I'll refuse to read anything from before this page - you should probably post as normal.

2) Thor hops into the game wanting a policy lynch.

Hint: It's a Day 1 wagon and is probably incredibly silly - let's

lynch one of the newbs who will probably be less helpful later.

I'm in [ongoing] with Leviathan and suspect he'll meet the bill

3) I believe that Thor saw his ticket once he noticed all of the holes he could poke in my emotional "frothing" at wanting a lynch of his slot and took advantage. He has been focused on me ever-since with town reads on everyone else and a slight scum read on Mala but would make "fun of" everyone if he had to compromise lynch her.

Spoiler: Thor's Read Posts

You [Adam] are town though. Rather pedantic but...meh

Mantis is also probably town.
Apparently Levi is fairly obv. town. I'll slip him town side of nullish due to Adam and Mollie apparently agreeing with that.

Anyone have a read worth anything on Mala. He's rather ignoring my entrance to the game - what's he even doing over there?

thor - what is your overall impression of malakittens?

Scummish - but no real strong read there.
I'd do it as a compromise if everyone was saying 'can't lynch Pro - he's hyper town'
But

I would make fun of you all as we did it.

You mean like when I said you were town, Mantis was town, Leviathan was town, Pro Hawk was scum, and Mala was scum?
Reads like that?

I'd have reads on the rest of the lurksacks if they ever showed up and said anything, but the above is bascially every player in the game who has posted since I've shown up, so oddly those are the players I have reads on. I'm weird like that.

I find it interesting that I couldn't find any evidence or rationale as to why he maintains his town reads save because others have them. If I have missed any other scum-hunting posts, please point them out.

4) His attacks on me are filled with trying to make me look, derpy, silly, dodgy, unintelligent, and a fabricator among other things. While these attacks are not clearly ad-hom in that he isn't using them in a way to get out of him arguments, he is using them in a poisoning the well (a type of Ad-Hom) while trying to appeal to authority.

So after going over his ISO - I thought if Thor is scum, why is he pushing the lynch of a townie so hard? If he flips town in the lynch I would look bad, but the reverse is also true when I flip town. Then I remembered he already hedged that possibility in this post.

You're probably scum, aren't you?

Unvote: Leviathan
Vote: ProHawk

Misreps, using logic he understands is scummy, and salivating for my lynch.

Gosh, why does, "I'm not going to read this thread, go ahead and push for my lynch" just seem to fit perfectly with this analysis?

Seems like he is taking fresh start to the limits.

Have you looked at my town meta? You seem to like meta - try to find me saying I read the game when replacing in as town anytime in the past 1.5-2 years.

Oddly, i can still lynch town as good or better than most - so...

That point will come up again if I get lynched today and you see my flip. He already made his excuse for pushing a townie lynch in the exact same post that he started the wagon-run. That's what I see from Thor's ISO at the moment.

[ProHawk]

Thor, I don't know what you want me to say regarding your evidence that Town does replace out when on the lynching block. I am not going to praise you because I don't think there is any more room for your ego to fit in the room. I looked at it, and you're right it happened. But your evidence also doesn't say that ONLY town will do it. Therefore it still is a possibility that Mollie was scum and was pulling a gambit that you replaced into. It obviously made me re-think my stance because I made a post about it.

The problem is you aren't even considering the possibility that I am not scum, hence the tunneling. You aren't finding scum, you are self-focused on who you are positive is scum.

RE: Three man team. This may just be my "poor reading comprehension" here, but from my understanding its an open setup with a two-man scum team and your replacing in wouldn't give you the luxury of coaching your scum partner.

[ProHawk]

Mala, I would love to hear your case on me. Thx.

[ProHawk]

My opinion has changed. Before your post, I was certain that only scum would be motivated enough to do it, but you showed me otherwise. Was that my

only

reason for voting you/Mollie? No. Do I still think you have a good chance of being scum? Yes, hence my continued vote.

I need to do some more evaluation on Mala, but right now she has a lot to answer for. I need to see her case on me.

[ProHawk]

Levi, what part of stop being useless didn't you get? If you want to lynch Shrimp, then vote him, although Shrimp isn't a wagon so in terms of being a contributory vote it wouldn't, but you still have 7 days to make a convincing argument right?

[ProHawk]

My point is just make a decision already.

[ProHawk]

RE: This...

Note that I catch her with bad logic...and she REFUSES TO DISCUSS IT.

Pray-tell

what negative attention did you intentionally garner?

wrt my bold: you are spinning this. I drew negative attention at my entrance into the thread which you voted on didn't you?

Spinning is just Mollie's way of saying I don't like what you posted but can't logically refute your point

.

Spoiler: Mollie's Grandiose Entrance

are you thinking levithan thing was trying to extend the mafia talk time malacat?

okay I want to see where this goes

VOTE: levianthan93

also mantis you need to get in here so I can get a read on you!!!

You tell me how I am spinning it, cause i'm not. Her posts themselves did not garner any negative attention until specific scrutiny was brought to them.

RE: Scum looking up another game for an argument. It is more than possible.

wrt the bold: erm no, spinning is trying to misinterpret a motivation and paint it as scummy when it isn't. <---- it looks scummy IMO.

If I am spinning it, why can't you point out exactly what/where the spin is?

I did.

Re-post please cause I musta missed it.

She refused to discuss how I was spinning, said she addressed it, but left it at that.

[ProHawk]

Where?

[ProHawk]

You are going to have to dumb it down more for me Thor. All I see is...

Definition: Spinning is trying to misinterpret a motivation and paint it as scummy when it isn't.

But she never says

what

I was spinning (which I don't think I was spinning).

"Pray-tell what negative attention did you intentionally garner?" - How is this mis-interpreting a motivation? And how am I painting it as scummy? Mollie was the one who said that she intentionally posted in an attempt to get negative attention.

[ProHawk]

Mala, I would still like to see your case on me.

[ProHawk]

I refuse to support a Shrimp lynch at all today. I am 85% sure he is town with his town-slip at the beginning of the game despite playing poorly recently.

[ProHawk]

You are all missing the point of the town-slip. He clearly didn't know the difference between a town PR and a scum PR. The only way for him not to have known about the scum PR would have been for him to have not received that role PM. Both scum role PM's are power roles.

Revisit my Post Here for Clarification

[ProHawk]

Scratch that, he could have known it was a scum PR and have been faking it, but reading his posts in general he seems to be the think-out-loud type of a poster and not the type to edit his posts for his own gain. Hence my 85%.

[ProHawk]

What exactly are you trying to say here Levi? Please explain "i wouldn't have understood that I was a pr if I had gotten scum."

What wouldn't you have understood? Did you not read your role-PM? Would you not have noticed the similarity if your role PM would have said "Tracker-Immune" and then you saw when I asked Molly if she was "Tracker-Immune or Watcher-Immune?" What exactly is confusing about that?

[ProHawk]

Ok Mala, if you already stated it, allow me to re-outline my own case from what I see in your posts: Click the Spoilers to see the Actual Posts.

Spoiler: Post 166

Prohawk:

I think your case on Shrimp was a bit graspy.
Basically you are going after Mollie and Shrimp. As Mollie stated trying to "provoke" her and the case on Shrimp is weak.
This play is incredibly different from our most recent Micro Game.

Highest FoS so far.

- Graspy case on Shrimp - Different from Earlier Game.
- Provoking Molly - Different from Earlier Game.

Spoiler: Post 170

So, is your play style completely different from Micro game where we were both town? Yes.
Am I completely sold that you are scum? No, but I'm planning on digging for your thoughts.

Something is off.

- Play Style is Different.

Spoiler: Post 253

ProHawk isn't acting totally innocent to me, but he's acting scummy. He wanted to get Guille a hammer on him without allowing Guille to explain or even having CodeX post his reads or views on any material. To me finding connections based off one post is hard depending on whether or not Codex or Guille were to flip scum.

- Post insinuating a Guille Hammer.

Spoiler: Post #777

Oh please murder me now, I left off on Page 18/31. I blame Adam!

[Most parts not related to ProHawk removed for ease of read]

Hey Pro, why did you poke at me for saying the same thing as Levi, but didn't say the same thing to Levi in his post #708.

I'm so glad you are trying to direct attention for me for lurking when I feel that you are constantly jumping into arguments and then laying back as they take off into fireworks.


I tend to get twitchy and paranoid and panicky as town rather than scum.

&&&&TLDR&&& (Or something to that nature)

I'm getting twitchy posts from Levi lately. He's no longer much of a town read as it was before the game started. Weak scum read.
I'm going to watch ProHawk, I don't trust him. Leaning scum.
Adam has become a town read.
PM a town read.
Bork is a mild-town read.
Not really sure what to make of Guille.
Mantis is a weak town read. I want to watch for caution though.
Shrimp is town.

- Directs attention to a lurker, but backs off of wagons when they explode into fireworks.

Spoiler: Post 871

2. I am toying with a Levi/Pro team. You are acting a bit different than I saw you act the last time. You know exactly how I play, but choosing it to build a case against me for it. I also feel as if you'll start something, but then gradually walk away from it as it begins to fuel into a large flame.

- Acting a bit different.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So as of now, this is the only case that you have presented against me. I gave you a chance to refine your read but you decided to blow it off. I am going to say it again, meta cases don't hold water,

especially

when you don't do them right. Each time we finish a game we learn different methods, different play-styles that we can incorporate or adapt into our current play-style which will effectively change our meta. We get rid of things that don't work and incorporate things that do. People are not static, they are dynamic. Saying that because I am not playing the same as when I was town does not mean that I can't be town now, or that I am scum. You haven't even compared my play-style now to how I have played as scum. Take a look at it Here - Newbie 1262. I think you will find it quite a bit different to my current style. So if I am acting different than when I was town and acting different than when I was scum what does that make me?

Both my posts with the "graspy" case on Shrimp and my insinuating hammer of Guille (I never asked for one, just said that it was going to happen.) were both parts of my scum-hunting process. The first led to an obv-town slip. The second led to three important reactions in particular which I will soon be addressing.

I am not really sure I see or understand this backing off when they explode into fireworks thing... perhaps you can provide some specifics for me.

Anyway, feel free to latch onto some of Thor's many arguments toward me being scum, or any of my more recent shady posts if you feel like it will solidify your case on me.

[ProHawk]

Yes Levi, I do not want you to lynch my town-partner Shrimp. My 85 percent surety bugs you? Or the fact that Shrimp will not be lynched today?

Whether or not they are "pr roles'" is irrelevant. The point is he thought that what I was asking was related to town and not scum therefore he was either A) Acting to gain cred or B) Honestly had never seen the scum role-card.

I can understand this coming from you... but Mantis?

Mantis, you need to seriously sit down and read Shrimp's post. What I am seeing from you is either honest confusion or opportunistic voting trying to get Shrimp lynched because he is an "easy" target with his more recent set of posts. Because in the slip-up he wasn't saying

Adam

was asking for PR's he was saying that I was. I want to hear your thoughts on this when you have all the facts straight.

[ProHawk]

I believe that as we get down to the deadline that our two clear lynch targets are going to be Mala or Thor. PEDIT: I would also be willing to compromise on a Mantis lynch after Borks post although I see her as being less likely to flip scum over Mala or Thor.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mala

Mala has recently popped up on my radar as scum after she started to take a

back seat

in the game from a

front row seat

. Her actual scum-hunting posts where she seems to care about finding scum were pretty good at the beginning.

Post #14 - Got the town out of RVS on the first vote.
Post #53 - Well thought out post

explaining

why Shrimp deserved to be pressured along with

questions

to help determine a true read.
Post #166 - Decent overall reads post filled with questions.
Post #170 - Good backup post to her vote.

And this is where the really good hunting posts stop. Subsequent posts are mostly just answering questions and defending either herself or others. Also compare her initial posts to her filler posts of literally no content. #393, #397, #686, #769, #771, #773.

Scum-tell because she changed mid-game? No. She could have easily just have ran out of time to keep up with a fast-paced game. What I find very suspect is her reaction to being called out on it.

Hey Pro, lay off, I have supplied content.

Fuck off Prohawk. I am busy with school. My lack of input in all of my games should show that. >.>

I was looking at Mollie's post regarding Levi's scum slip. Then I realized that it could have been a scum slip.

The "reason" was for the second thing he quoted. The reason for my lack of content.

See. I knew me saying that I like to lurk would make you roll your head towards me.

Its clear to me it has struck a nerve. I don't see it as a town reaction to having limited time/availability. Not really a strong tell, but evidence to be brought to the table.

Here is where my real scum-read pops up. She has this obsession with meta-based alignment tells. It starts with:

ProHawk:

Your ISO reads the following:

Levi is probable town.
Mala got us out of RVS stage. I was going to lean that you are probably calling me town. >.>
Attacks Mollie.
Pokes at Adam.
Tells Adam to stop taking the grilling from Mantis as Mantis is "fencesitting"
Attacks Shrimp.
Stops attacking Shrimp and goes back to Mollie.
Calls Shrimp obvstown.

So, is your play style completely different from Micro game where we were both town? Yes.
Am I completely sold that you are scum? No, but I'm planning on digging for your thoughts.

Something is off.

Answer: Meta analysis is in my experience not a good indication of alignment.

Who wants to maintain the same play-style throughout all of their games? No-one. And this is regardless of alignment.

We all learn things as we play and decide to improve on what doesn't work, while implementing things that do.

Evidence: Compare our Micro Game to my Recently completed town game here. You will see they are drastically different, just as my play here differs.

If you care to do an accurate and thorough meta analysis, you need to read my first scum game here.

When you can explain how my different meta equates to scum, I will say you might have a case. Until then your case on me is more washy than the one I had on Shrimp who scum-slipped as town.

My response never gets an answer. She doesn't go read my scum meta, at least she never comments on it. Fine, not a big deal.

Mantis. I'm very quiet during Day 1. If I survive Night 1 I'm able to figure out who scum is by Day 2 and by Day 3 I have the whole team. Don't underestimate me by a long shot. I am hunting, but I was reaction testing.

I'm sticking up for Guille because Adam, but Levi were putting him as actively lurking when he wasn't. He said it in his own post.

Why is this a problem? First, this post pretty much marks the decline in her quality/content of posts. For example, all of her really useless filler posts come after this. It seems like she is trying harder to maintain her town-meta image after post #309.

Second, It is pretty clear from her posts that she feels meta is a good indicator of alignment, despite making posts saying that it isn't. She will therefore make sure that she is playing consistent with her town-meta in order to be able to provide such as evidence to her innocence. As such, using it as proof for being town is not strong evidence by any-means. I believe that Mala-scum wants her personal meta to be her fall-back in case she has to defend herself. Notice how excited she got when Guille said he had a meta-case on her but was waiting to post. She mentions it four times in quasi-succession (#1012, #1014, #1023, #1086).

Also worthy of note:

guille read one of my old games is that typical for scum to do on this site or are they like bork and can't even read the game that they are in? in my experience scum tends to be the latter.

After this ^ comes...

Adam.. Do you have a finished town game, here or another site?

Also, Guille it's hard to meta someone with one completed game. >.>

Mollie. I checked Tit and that's your only completed game. The newbie is not finished therefore I can't meta you.
I can handle reading harsh things as long as they aren't directed towards me. So possible link offsite games

Cool, I have just witnessed the first time I ever saw a scum-Guille play in another game.

Brb, going to meta him from that game to this game.

Coincidence that all of these posts about going to meta someone came after Molly pointed out that scum usually don't read other games? Could be, but Mala does think its a town-tell as pointed out here.

No
I have seen town more times out of ten meta someone rather than scum.

She sees it as a town-tell and is going out of her way to mention that she is reading other games and meta someone. That smells fishy.

So Mala, why did you decide to change your playstyle mid-game? Also, what is the deal with you being all over meta-analysis when you have stated twice that they aren't good indicators?

[ProHawk]

Mala, so it seems like you are going to make me work for this the hard way by doing a meta analysis on you that I find to be rather null honestly, but since its your main defense it needs some looking into.

Yes, you do meta-analysis as town. Meta analysis requires both town games and scum games to compare. Why didn't you link me to any of your scum games? I had to go find them all on my own.

Here is what I found interesting:

As scum, you have used your town-meta as a defense before as scum:

In Bird 7p
Carbon-14

As scum, you have stated or implied that you went back/would go back to read another game on another player to use a meta-based argument:

Carbon-14
Murder On the HMS Regalia

So if you can be seen doing it as scum and as town, what does that make you? See why meta usually results in a null-tell? Anyhow, worthy of note is in you town games where you use meta, you usually make a case with the meta with specific evidence points whereas when you are using meta as scum its more half-hearted either from memory or no case at all. Your meta-casings more closely appear leaning toward how you do meta-analysis as scum and less toward how you do meta-analysis as town. Did I miss anything?

[ProHawk]

I also have another question for you Mala, Now that I have gone through and read your ISO and the entire Carbon-14 game, does that mean I am not scum?

[ProHawk]

Yeah meta defense of myself, but not of other players. I didn't use meta to try to build a case or even influence it to vote. This is different than my town games. Plus the first two you linked were really early games the 7bird was recent, but Cort was the most recent which didn't again influence my reads.

I never did go back to those games of theirs btw.

That's the funny thing though because you haven't made any solid meta case of anyone else here save to say their play is different.

[ProHawk]

I am pushing for your lynch because I see scum in your eyes. Why didn't you ever use any of the meta-cases as scum to influence your reads or vote for anyone?

[ProHawk]

You had better get on making a case using meta in that vein, because you still haven't.

[ProHawk]

Did Guile die early or late in his recent scum game?

[ProHawk]

Sounds pretty typical to his play-style as a new player to me actually.

[ProHawk]

I need to test a theory, can we push Mala up to L-1?

[ProHawk]

Its a theory, you don't get to know until we get there.

[ProHawk]

One other thing I don't get Mala is why does getting behind on over 14 pages overwhelm you, yet you continue to say you are reading other games for meta stuff?

[ProHawk]

You mean the excuse that she is better after D1?

[ProHawk]

Go for it.

[ProHawk]

Yeah, you can find this excuse Here, but she has used it as town too. Mala relys on meta stuff a-lot which is why she is going to focus on making her meta match her town meta which seems forced to me in this game.

[ProHawk]

Also, meta isn't the only thing she has done here to try and earn town points in this game which we can delve into later if needed.

[ProHawk]

Did you help us win as town in our micro-game? Yes.

But all I remember from that was you doing night-kill analysis which I am not a huge fan of...

Anyway, this excuse all hinges on you being town because if you are scum, you aren't going to be any better after Day 1, in fact you may even be worse if you are trying to point us in the WIFOM direction of trying to figure out why Adam (who Thor would NK) died N1.

[ProHawk]

I need to get her up to L-1 to test my theory and Thor is V/LA for a while, so lets see where this wagon takes us.

[ProHawk]

Don't you worry Mala, Levi will be lynched, just not today.

[ProHawk]

Can I show you meta of you frustrated as scum too? Cause I found that as well....

[ProHawk]

Good-heavens, we aren't really that bad are we Adam? Or is it just a scum-disease for this game?

[ProHawk]

Personally, I think these day phases are way too long. This game will be massive before we are done.

[ProHawk]

Well, he is on track to be replaced next.

[ProHawk]

Ya Mantis, I caught onto that line pretty early, but I believe that was pre-town-slip days for him.

[ProHawk]

Thank you Bork.

[ProHawk]

So is anyone going to help me out, or are we just going to hang out for another couple of days?

[ProHawk]

Need to put Mala @ L-1.

[ProHawk]

Angel, welcome! Take some time to catch up, we need some help here.

[ProHawk]

I am testing a theory, can't explain until we get there.

[ProHawk]

Don't worry Angel, you are pretty much confirmed town, but we do need your vote before the deadline, so think long and hard, thanks! On an aside, Adam or Mantis, we need another vote on Mala.

[ProHawk]

Hey Guille, if Angel's entry post looks town to you, what does Thor's entry post look like to you?

[ProHawk]

Yeah... I am with Adam, lets hear some thorough analysis.

[ProHawk]

Now I am seeing that everything you just said conflicts with how I saw Thor replace in, can you elaborate on him now?

[ProHawk]

Adam has pretty much touched on it already, but we think a lot alike which is why I think we seem to work well together. Do I trust him? Today I do. Tomorrow (game tomorrow) might be a different. I am getting ready for an exam at the moment, but when I am done I can post my full thoughts on Adam if you would like.

[ProHawk]

I am not sure what you mean by they don't match?

[ProHawk]

Angel, we don't post the same... at all. But we generally come to the same conclusions. Started around Post #173 to which I agree and follow suit in #174.

Post #315 shows how Adam and I often see eye-to-eye.

We pretty much agreed with our views on Mollie/Thor spot, as well as the Shrimp/Angel slot. Does that answer your question?

[ProHawk]

Mantis, all I see are lies coming out of your mouth. How do you ever expect to lynch Mala when you aren't voting her!!

Angel, I don't see it that way yet, as of now we are just two cool townies hot on scum's tail.

[ProHawk]

I don't think Levi can help it... he just leaves trails of scum droppings as he passes through.

[ProHawk]

Thor, you just aren't an agreeable person, so that doesn't surprise me in the least.

[ProHawk]

And if Mantis doesn't vote Mala in her next post, my hand will be forced.

[ProHawk]

Or...maybe not.

[ProHawk]

3

[ProHawk]

Well, no one cares to help me, so abort mission.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mantis

I think I am starting to see things your way Bork.

[ProHawk]

Also, for those keeping track, we have a little more than one day to come up with someone to lynch, so lets get on that sooner rather than later.

[ProHawk]

Not to mention she has been flopping and non-committal this whole game, a little too cautious you say?

[ProHawk]

At least his underwhelming has been consistent...

[ProHawk]

Oh, and Mantis you are stalling. My top three are: Thor, Mantis, Mala.

[ProHawk]

Why are we dorking around with a compromise to the compromise?

^This is why you are stalling Mantis.

The OMGUS is large with this (Mantis) one...

[ProHawk]

Precisely Watson