Open 474 - Friends and Enemies - Game Over!

[Docteur Gudsight]

Dislike KX’s opening post. KX’s this line "not that it means anything, being the norm and all" sounds like he’s trying to avoid really getting in any confrontation. VOTE: KX

I like the tone of Nic’s second post. Jacob and cheery I like the tone of their posts in general and all three are weak town reads at the moment. Arc seems like her usual town self at the moment. Serra’s question feels really weak with the way asked and is a slight scum lean right now.

~Mehdi

[Docteur Gudsight]

Mehdi + Elscouta

P-edit: Expecting someone else?

~Mehdi

[Docteur Gudsight]

Adding to the vote reason:

I can confirm what HD says, I am scum in 100% of my games. Or at least apparently I seem that way. So, first game here, looks to be fun!

OMGUS and such, plus I seriously distrust him (not that it means anything, being the norm and all)

Vote: HD

The post as a whole seems forced with the contrasting tone between the first lines and the words in the parentheses.

[Docteur Gudsight]

Serra’s question feels really weak with the way asked and is a

slight scum lean

right now.

Worded that way for a reason. I do think it's at least a reason to keep watch on him now.

~Mehdi

[Docteur Gudsight]

It meant part of the post sounded open while the parenthetical portion sounded cautious.

It did help your case (specifically 1st part of 1st line and 3rd + 4th lines of second paragraph). I'll go with the scum lean for now. VOTE: Serra

~Mehdi

[Docteur Gudsight]

Whether you consider it to be or not does it seem scummy beyond that? AtE isn't really a scum tell and amount of emotion used in posts is generally player dependent.

And yes players flipped in on going games means the game is still on going and shouldn't be discussed at all. Pointing things out about their play in that game can affect the game.

[Docteur Gudsight]

goodmorning out of the now 12 who have posted who's actually scummy?

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

The reasoning about voting Venrob is sound. In his first two posts he managed to:

- Ignore the current discussion around KX, and vote for the Klick fluff wagon.
- Start explaining that he usually looks like scum when town.

KX is also guilty of the second thing.

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

Docteur: Nice job setting up your vote on me over three posts.

That's a nice way to make it sound eviler then it is. I pointed out a weak scum read on you and when the other scum read changed I voted you.

I agree with the dog. Start playing the game when he is responding to AA who asked about it and that he's naturally going to move to something else (mostly because it's hard to talk about yourself forever). That and lack of HD calling it a lie I'll go with it's believable for his meta and comes off really genuine to me to see him post all that just for the sake of wanting clarity.

HD what did you think of serra's answer beyond lack of double standard? Would you call it actually useful things she linked to? (along with the done more then list of as of then lurkers which not lurking is somehow a town tell)

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

HD what did you think of serra's answer beyond lack of double standard? Would you call it actually useful things she linked to?

1) The double standard part was really the important thing about the answer; I didn't really see anything particularly town or scum other than that tidbit.

Can you say what kind of answer from serra would have given you a scumread on him?

~Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

@Human_Destroyer: "He has posted before" is not a filler reason?

~Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

Difference being? He isn't going to say it that exact way since that makes it sound a lot less town like then he's contributing some helpful things here and there.

Anyways two current scum reads are on ven (more so for ignoring other wagons in the past and now on focusing on himself when commenting without looking much elsewhere then the supposed slip which really neither alignment has any benefit and hd I disagree is a town tell, but just a dumb tell) and serra (reasoning on jacob seems weak and forced).

CD how much does ven's slip matter to you? HD how much does it matter to you as well (if it's dumb as scum then how does it become not dumb as town and just null?)?

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

Did you ever explain why having part of what you say be about yourself is a bad thing?

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

In response to Nic, I'll admit the multi-paragraph post wasn't the most helpful, and could have been shortened, but it was to prove a point. Other the the TL;DR nature, how is the information not helpful? It's proving something to talk about, it gives people insight into my play style since there's no meta, and if gives something for people to go off of. Also, I tend to be a reckless person. I don't exactly crave attention, but see no problem with sticking out, and won't change my attitude to avoid doing so.

Did this paragraph disappear? (same with stuff directed to AA) Not really talking to himself.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

KX is town, as in

NEVER

should be lynched under any circumstances. Scum do not stay up til 3am making a big post listing all of his reads. Scum try and avoid giving them so the fact 1. he gave them voluntarily and 2. he did them so late at night when sleep is far more important. Either he's town or he's scum and didn't read his Role PM.

Short rant: people have never mentioned it to me as scum when I post at 4am to deal in wall wars or cases. True anyway.

Moving on, predictable serra would call it wifom (I currently feel conf biasing myself, but I still don't like it). His reads are essentially all town reads with a complete hole in scum reads.

My other half has more of a josh scum read that he can explain later for this vote: VOTE: Josh. Mine is I agree with els and serra while scummy seems less viable right now.

Nic can you elaborate on your last post a bit more?

Ven how is it scummy from klick when he's known to self vote as both alignments a lot. Or how is it worth a vote at this time compared to other wagons going on.

[Docteur Gudsight]

And the above was by mehdi.

[Docteur Gudsight]

My other half has more of a josh scum read that he can explain later for this vote: VOTE: Josh. Mine is I agree with els and serra while scummy seems less viable right now.

Let's list Jacob posts:
#6: Random Vote
#69: Filler post "nothing to say, let's not discuss anything"
#118: Requests for KX to contribute, and stop discussing about himself. Claims KX behaviour is scummy.
#120: "Oops i forgot to vote"
#122: "Cherry Dog disagree about my scumread on KX, and is very wrong"
#159: Requests for KX to contribute, and stop discussing about himself. Claims KX behaviour is scummy. Says he isn't avoiding what's happening in the thread
#161: Says KX speaking about himself is not contributing.

There's a few things I find very wrong about this:

1) He is accusing KX of not contributing, despite having himself not contributed anything.
2) I'm disliking his way of asking KX to scumhunt, but calling him scum. If he was thinking that KX was scum, what's the point of writing in all caps, multiple times, "STOP BEING SCUM AND BE A GOOD TOWNIE THAT CONTRIBUTES".

Quite early for L-1, but... He is giving me no read so VOTE: Josh. Can I not be lynched for this?

What the fuck is that? A L-1 vote on a null read?

Unvote.

Consider we still have a ghost vote on Josh, but I would be

extremely disappointed

if someone randomly hammers with a reason as good as Venrob's one. So, better safe than sorry.

This is another scummy bandwagon vote IMO, but Josh Lyman is scummier.

Are you feeling confident about the Josh wagon building so fast, with bad/scummy reasoning?

(note: if you feel like you are asking many questions to you, let's say it's because we are quite schizophrenic about our read on you)

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

Hi Jacob.

I have a very important question for you and the answer to it might very well be relevant to the outcome of this game.

Who is scum?

Thanks in advance,
~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

@Els, are you meaning to talk to Jacob or are you meaning your scumread Josh?

My question was for Jacob not Josh. I'm currently watching how the situation evolves for Josh, and <redacted until Jacob answers>.

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

...no, he's scummy. Where did I say he was null?

He's avoided current events in game and completely denied doing so. That's pretty damn scummy if you ask me.

How come jacob defending josh is scummy, but serrra defending josh twice (second time in 208 being the worse one) isn't called scummy? (part what do you think of serra currently)

But my point is the reason you voted that wagon was the same as what most people (everyone but venrob) used, so if you're worrying about your own reasons, shouldn't you also worry about other people who are using the same thing

Cheery were our reasons for voting josh the same as hd? Were nic's reasons the same?

KX why do you think we should talk more?

Serra's blindness to the wagon reasons when nic's and ours are clear adds to the serra covering for josh (and nic did use quotes while els referred to post numbers which work as well quotes). HD's were also clear if short at the time. She's also softly attacking KX, spencer, and venrob in 208 (town points to all 3 if he flips scum which I think will occur). After josh dies serra needs to follow.

210: Avoiding me and nic's clear reasons pushing you as well as responding to each vote and are trying to get away as quietly and easily as possible. Instead of directly confronting all the suspicion on you you're just asking HD the more obvious attacking leader when two others gave you clear places to start in a defense (respond to els laundry list of your scummy posts and nic's several quotes and reasons on your scumminess).

KX's 212 is also a town tell. Serra 211 not understanding it still seems more like trying to block people from having a strong town read and is still scummy.

Klick he also has no use to push his strongest scum read to scum hunt. A null lazy read sure, but he was voting kx as well. And yes I believe that logic isn't flawed. Either he's faking the strength of the scum read or he wants to listen to a person he thinks is scum reads.

Jacob what does serra's bad defending of josh mean for the town read on josh? She's also soft attacked venrob already.

~Mehdi

[Docteur Gudsight]

I'm also unsure how this hydra can be null at this point (mostly to goodmorning although it applies fine to anyone without a town read on us).

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

Town

Human Destroyer
KX
ArcAngel9
Cheery Dog
NicCage
JacobSavage
Venrob
goodmorning
Spencer22
Klick
Josh Lyman
serrapaladin
Scum

If a reason is needed on something ask. I'd say venrob and up is town reads of differing strength, spencer and goodmorning are null reads, and the last 3 are scum reads (klick being a weak one right now though and is something I'll decide on more later).

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

Serra
Venrob
Nic Cage

Cool, that question was only like 30 posts ago. How do you feel about reasons?

Reasons would be super nice. What would be even better is a reference to posts that you found scummy.

--


Also, after internal debate,

Vote: Josh

. L-1.

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

If you'd like I can answer. I know what reads we aren't agreed upon (while we don't agree on everything we do discuss things). Jacob isn't a town read for els, you're close to null, and hd is a null/weak scum read.

I gave other reasons for your scumminess. And it's held more consistently since when I voted early on. Lastly the read could be 90 percent dependent and it'd be fine. You can use it as a town tell if you'd like if josh flips town. I don't think that's going to happen.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

201, 199, and 215 are the long version of that cheery if it helps.

And serra the not having town reads is how you're treating the reason some are using to trust KX more. I'm saying blind for stuff like:

"So does someone want to post some quotes from Josh that are actually scummy?"

and 201 had several quotes, while 199 had a list of post numbers (which work like quotes if you aren't lazy)

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

Benefits of explictness:

Clarity
General atmosphere usually contains more discussion if you're clear on everything instead of posting just some parts

Con:

Scum can night kill better

The one con is fine with me in exchange for making people talk more. I'd rather scum know who the best kill is then have to be quieter which just usually has less trust in the town and the less divided people are and more trusting they are the more work usually is done. Town blocks have worked pretty awesomely in the past (it sucks to the townies that don't look town enough to be a part of the block but for people in it just adds unity).

And it can concern you I have a scum read on you. Re writing what I say is nice rhetoric, but I understand what I'm thinking. I can be very confident in my scum reads when I form strong ones (which has the sucky disadvantage that at times I don't have a single strong enough scum read and am not sure who to really vote).

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

Josh/Jacob/serra is my D1 scum team guess. Questions?

Yes, two questions:

1) Can you explain me how this correponds to "Talking to a "scumread" as if they're town is a blatant scumslip.":

Regardless of KX's alignment, we want him to post stuff that isn't just about himself. If he's town, we get some genuinely useful input. If he's scum, he's much more likely to slip up if forced to make concrete judgments and connections.

2) If you had to give a % chance of Josh being scum, and of your whole team Josh/Jacob/serra being correct, what would it be?

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

I have finished my catch up... I haven't changed my read on Josh, He still looks scummy to me and over the 5 page he hasn't done anything to defend himself and according to the Mod he is currently under prod. so I am not going waste my vote someone who is obviously going to be replaced. so

unvote josh

for now!! If Josh is back. I ll change my vote back to him.

Question: Is the deadline was tomorrow, who would you be voting, and why?

This is a trick question.

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

Also i'm disappointed that HD makes a huge post about Jacob, and omits the most important reason about why Jacob is very likely scum. But I have decided to be irrationnal about my HD read, so w/e.

The main reason that Jacob is very likely scum is that in all his posts, until explicitly asked, he only gave town reads (whether joke or reasoning). When asked, he provided scum reads, which means that before he was actually *avoiding* posting his scum reads while posting about his town reads.

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

Bah. I guess the general policy is to not lynch a replacement (especially d1), even if the slot was previously scummy. So,

Unvote

. Moreover, #349 and #350 is good posting. I endorse this product.

I won't vote HD. 1) This hydra is still debating internally his case. 2) I believe that given his poststyle and contributions, he makes a bad d1 lynch, and would be better lynched/trusted later pending on connections and flips.

I disagree with almost all of #358.

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

Have you read his posts?

It's a way to focus not on the game and yet appear active.

He gave reasons why you're scummy and voted you. Just because you disagree with his reasoning doesn't mean he's not contributing.

Do you really need to argue definition of contribution? Or how about his focus was overly specific at kx when he's complaining about kx just discussing himself and said it was fine if done partly. Not commenting on most of the game is low contribution.

272's scum motivation is? He wasn't using the lurking as an excuse to add suspicion and it sounded more like a weak defense so unless AA is considered scum not sure what scum motivation it contains that nic and serra mentioned.

@294/AA, AA scum replace out just as well. If you think he's scum continue voting him. Josh being voted isn't just pressure it's because of a genuine desire to have him lynched. And AA can you give short reasons explaining your reads? (or long if you want to wall)

Serra you have more then the majority of the game agreeing with the suspicion on josh so maybe it's just the reasons you claim aren't enough are for others and believe do take them as scum tells.

@HD serra null is because of? Are you sure your scum thing is right in calling jacob's kx town read post scum motivated? I can see the reason not being the strongest to focus the read upon, but the scum motivation is what in saying it (assuming kx is town which I think he is)? A lot of the case really is fluffy and things like what does this have to do anything deals with responding to me (responses can be on a tangential point). His quickness to call jacob town there is mainly based on wagon dynamics which thought on the way vote is going is one of the complex things to look at and not something I'd consider scummy.

Josh would linking to fast wagons on scum be enough to kill that reason? Wagons have a tendency to be fast even with scum pushes. You commented on the wagon mechanics at first, but what about now. He's basically sat at L-1 for a while without hammer intent or anything. That not ring any alarms?

@Jennifer, purpose of 352 is? Maybe since a. not everyone posted and b. reads change. Reads jumping is usually more apparent in town players then scum. Scum read tend to want their reads to be consistent and flow more which is part of what makes stiff reads and part of why some consider tunneling a scum tell in the first place. The opinion is swap is completely fine alignment wise.

Internal argument will be done later vote wise, but personally I don't want the josh wagon to die and the fact it's dissipating so much to me is a big red sign.

AA jennifer came. So what happened to the read on her and doesn't the reason you unvoted her die if the slot's active again?

Josh was online to post so not responding comes to him and he did respond just without addressing much.

Ven can you explain your vote change and reads some?

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

And panzer isn't the argument on cases just that it's a different way to push things? HD thought jacob was scum. He pushed by a case which generally has more weight attached. How is pushing his scum read like that scummy? The back and forth discussion you're saying is a problem never occurred (and I'd argue back and forths are the best way to really see people pressured and discuss things instead of just having them calmly comment).

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

Lastly, emphasize the replacements don't kill the read on someone and wagon dissipating that easily on someone isn't a good thing and vague not good is the best way I can describe it beyond the fact ok posting is becoming a town tell somehow when jeniffer's attack on jacob still aren't really that much thought and just concrete based so these great replacement feelings I completely lack along with the focus on the gm vote which means both the L-1 vote and hammer intent on her slot are the things she looks at most and goes into with scum feelings (not sure if she calls jacob scum, but she implies that read).

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

If you'd like to be childish then I'm pretty sure I'm one of the more fickle players on this site with reads. I do tunnel to death if I believe something strongly, but beyond that jumping is fun.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

And you're not counting yourself yet want to. My personal read on you hasn't changed.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

And really of all things to attack you choose that for the way to weaken me? It's responding to one of the weakest things possible and seems like if you deal with it the rest is dealt with. Kind of like the original if you disagree with a reason discounting it with any real quotes for a response instead of responding to each quote if you really want to counter and understand the root of the suspicion.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

None. It's called he gave it already. And internal consistency as scum as a fairly noticeable thought process based both on my experience of it and the fact generally townies jump a lot more. It's why I said the fos on it looks like calling a scummy looking action scummy when it doesn't have much likelyhood of coming from scum more at all. Erratic voting is a fairly vig town tell in practice.

The votes that stand out are the ones near your death.

And my current opinion of gm was forgotten there, but it's the way the wagon formed on the tail of yours on top of the fact I like the reasons he gave for his read list (yeah I nagged on me being null but it's understandable similar to other reasons he gave) makes me heavily dislike the wagon.

[Docteur Gudsight]

Honestly the thing that bit me most with him was his choice to unvote just for good for discussion which is a really weak reason to exit a scum read. Anyone with decent playing ability can wall so it sounding like a town tell from a replace in who'd likely have time to comment since they'd have to catch up is just weak. His treatment of scum reads though in the sense of them leaving him seems like genuine weakness in reads and doesn't feel contrived at all along with the fact I personally like his L-1 vote on you in keeping you at L-1. I understand the idea of extending the day he's pushing and can see why it sounds like something he genuinely believes even if I think once you have a strong scum read the day doesn't need to be pushed to last more.

~M (last was ~M too)

[Docteur Gudsight]

Why the strong response to 394 Mehdi?

I find it highly discrediting in tone and motivation. You chose the weakest thing to put in a bad light instead of respond to say the rest.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

And goodmorning replied to 402's question already once.

Erratic opinion is also still not really a scum tell unless you want to explain it some more. Especially when the timing of jacob's was an atmosphere of josh dislike. Ven's is more opportunistic but the idea of jumping around being more of a town tell applies there as well especially when done so blatantly.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

All. 1 sentence each is enough.

And I thought it was directed to me but I gave my feelings on gm at the top of this page and bottom of last page. I don't think he's scum. Go iso him and he does have content.

And how is jennifer particularly better? (to both angel and anyone who's gone off her so easily which seems to forget the fact josh's alignment carries over and his scum tells still apply on the slot) Is it possible to be really worse? So far she's walled some with a weak reason to try to attack jacob and she didn't even vote him with it then when implying he was heavily scummy (like testing the waters first) and over focus on the last two votes of her wagon.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

1) Jacob is scummier.

2) Her main focus of attack is goodmorning, why wouldn't she have two scum reads?

P-Edit: @Docteur

1. Erratic votes and read swaps aren't particularly scummy. I know I swapped quite a bit as prince.

2. Two scum reads that both happen to be the last two votes for her. Not a strange choice in scum hunting? And the fact the way she referred to jacob initially sounded like a big scum read in asking why aren't people calling this obvscum (well that's how it comes out sounding) but not voting him then especially considering it came before the gm scum read really solidified so to me it appears like throwing suspicion on jacob without following onto it.

Abbreviations are a known way to trip people up (remember the two bb's confusion thing). Not immediately associating gm to goodmorning isn't strange and sounds like a confirmation bias thing on jacob.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

The more obvious thing is lack of care in appearances in flowing it. It'd take minimal effort to add flow in there and again scum are generally more internally consistent. I believe I swapped reads on you without a reason in between in that other game (backed up after that to explain it to people, but swapping is doable). Anyways jacob's reason was more along the lines I still think he's town, but a good lynch to do.

Is that a wrong link? I don't want to be held accounted for voting jacob sounds exactly like what I'm pushing on her. She goes to the extent to ask why hasn't anyone else commented on this already when it pretty recently happened, but doesn't find it enough to vote him. Likely because the read is contrived and just throwing suspicion and seeing how people accept it was the intent.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

Making things flow is easy. Caring to do it isn't town really and it's normally done as a by product of read explanation, but not always when the player doesn't care. It's just not a common scum motivation. Too consistent is much worse.

@All Why has no one called them out on this behavior?

Really that's the key post in it. The weight there sounds heavier then the gm scum read without lack of vote from her if it's so major that it needs to be called out before. Not sure if we're going to make progress so the other thing I point you to is your own josh case (or the other two, but mainly your own).

P-edit: That's what I was saying. He sounds like he's ok hammering a town read because he is by the looks of it and he gave why. Info reasons.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

I don't think I've ever been pushed for logical inconsistencies as scum. I know I've made them as town simply cause it wasn't my job to look consistent if my belief changed and sometimes laziness on explanation happens.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

Two scum reads that both happen to be the last two votes for her.

The first initial of my name is also the first initial of my predecessor's name.

Your argument is weird. You seem to be arguing:
* Town would ignore scummy behaviors if done by the last people to vote them
* Town wouldn't point out scummy behavior of more than one person at a time
* Town wouldn't try to rally people to get them to wake up and see/consider scummy behaviors



What am I missing?

* Scum vote location and read strength are more likely to be inconsistent. The way you worded the jacob question heavily implies a stronger scum read on jacob then gm and my thoughts are you were just trying to throw suspicion on jacob.

*Jacob's behavior isn't scummy. Logical consistency on primary points is one of the easiest things to fake. It's hard to fake for more minor things. Unless jacob is a bastard jester (which he isn't since set up) the logical inconsistency is a product of lack of care in faking something which is a big town tell.

And now that els has given me permission
VOTE: Jennifer.

If anyone else needs help understanding the vote just ask.

GM I'd say I'm fairly happy with 1 day hammers and have seen them occur just fine. Once you have a scum read the job is to get them lynched not stall the day forever. A small gain in info isn't worth unnecessary artificial day pro longing (parabola theory in MD says too long days has a bad effect as well for towns). And it's not relevant now really. Enough time has passed and no one can be put at L-1 I think right now by 1 vote.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

And panzer isn't the argument on cases just that it's a different way to push things? HD thought jacob was scum. He pushed by a case which generally has more weight attached. How is pushing his scum read like that scummy? The back and forth discussion you're saying is a problem never occurred (and I'd argue back and forths are the best way to really see people pressured and discuss things instead of just having them calmly comment).

~M

It's an anti-town way to push things at best. Of course it didn't happen, the guy who he made the case against was inactive.

All. 1 sentence each is enough.

And I thought it was directed to me but I gave my feelings on gm at the top of this page and bottom of last page. I don't think he's scum. Go iso him and he does have content.
~M

Having content =/= not scummy. All of the content is scummy.

I never said it was, but he was being pushed on not having any content so I was that attack reason was wrong.

And what's the difference between a case and a long fos? The reason it gets long is because it is a longer clearer argument for something. Reading walls won't kill people even if it had caused them.

But you still like the wagon on Jennifer? When half of the people are on both.

It's wagon motion not so much people for it. Seeing the wagon of a scum read dissipate onto a town lean doesn't really help the argument for gm to me.

That and you've never disliked a wagon without focusing on the specific people?

And the scum team has me and jennifer on it together? Although I'll say the venrob/jen connection is a nice thing to catch (serra + jen being the more connected pair still though).

@Jennifer (in order of things you said):

Is that really all you get from the defense? Or let's put it this way, do scum intentionally act scummy? Since that's basically what you're pushing. Forgetting your read on the biggest wagon of the day is very very unlikely and either he did it to be suspected partly or he didn't care about the suspicion and the lack of care is what makes him likely town for it.

I'm calling you out on the read since I think it doesn't really so much thought in actual scum motivation of it.

You quoted the question I'm thinking of.

"would you

ever

agree to lynch a town read"

That's the particular word if you want to get specific on it. The way that was said just implies you find it really unlikely to come from town and unless your gm read is stronger then it looks I'd expect a vote on jacob.

panzer AA's a lurker?

bork 201, 215, and 199 are the reasons for my current vote (with an added debate of jennifer's read on jacob implies a bigger scum read without a vote there) even if two parts of those posts aren't being followed by their creators.

~Mehdi

[Docteur Gudsight]

And bork why is your vote still on gm if you're leaning town on her now?

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

Honestly the argument is memory based so I did have to modify it a bit. I remembered the idea of it and the point has stayed the same. The read on jacob seems bigger then the scum read on gm.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

And is it bad to change the argument when you show part of it doesn't fit perfectly?

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

I can't have one read I'd stay on for awhile? At this point I feel most solid on all the josh stuff and with some disagreeable things to me from you I'll honestly not change my mind easily on this. I do re-read stuff (that's how more stuff for calling people scum occurs), but if it doesn't cause my opinion to change much I'll likely stick with the read. And honestly my goal is you lynched which involves calling you out on what you do scummy. Every scum has some things they do are town that if the goal was to PbP on you honestly I'm sure I'd have some nice comments. But overall I think you're likely scum so that's what I'll focus on expressing.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

Can you find me scum who feel the same way? You're pretty asking me there to convince my suspect into thinking their scum which isn't possible with a scum claim that's ridiculously unlikely to happen. All accusations have the defendant not feel the same way. Whenever you argue town reads you make it always sound like that since theirs an explanation it isn't scummy. She can a give a perfect explanation and I can still think she's lying and it was scum motivated if it seems that way to me.

The point stayed the same from the start and the point is the important thing. The detail backing it whether it's post 320 or 322 or whatever the number doesn't really matter much imo.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

*YAWN*

Cherry Dog is likely Town, Jennifer still needs to be lynched.
VOTE: Jennifer

Sorry, I forgot why Jennifer must be lynched. Can you quickly sum up the case for me?

(Yes I perfectly know the case, I just want Jacob to write it himself)

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

Your last reasoning for voting/hammering Josh was:

I have an issue yay

But the reason why I was willing to hammer is 1. A lot of people had expressed opinions on him and so.would be a good information lynch. 2. I prefere to not make the mod have to try and find a L-1 slot as often they are very hard to find.

I don't see these reasons as relevant anymore. Moreover, you didn't express any suspicion regarding Jennifer.

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

This last post was directed at Jacob.

[Docteur Gudsight]

Because triple posting is awesome:

Jacob, can you post a timeline on how your {read,willingness to lynch him} on Josh evolved, with references to posts/pages/events corresponding to the major changes?

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

Jacob's posts about Josh/Jenn are horribly inconsistent. I like Els' posts, but not Mehdi's...I suck at playing with hydras.

Jacob, you said that you found Josh town, despite all of the reasons in 518 having applied. Why do you find Jennifer scummier now than Josh earlier this game based on the same evidence?

Define like. The difference is going to appear as long as our reads don't align and I'm fine with els questioning someone he suspects even if I don't.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

The question was not what changed your opinion on josh to hammer intent or current vote, but thoughts from the start of the game on josh in context with time to the current time (which by nature pretty much requires a paragraph answer).

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

Also nice to see the long awaited jacob vote from jennifer. Reasoning on it from gm isn't much considering how much pushing there was on that point previously. The vote also ties the wagons between jennifer and jacob.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

@Cheery, tbh I just disliked seeing the guy I'm tunneling lose several votes. That's really what it comes down to me. Els was part of the vote removal and I don't think I'm scum. And unlike having gm as a suspicion I had him as a weak town/null read then and currently he'd be a weak town read for nothing really in particular.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

My only play history with him consists of a fake claim as town. I don't really remember many reads for him in that game either but by the time he replaced in the number of people confirmed scum/town makes forming a list of reads less necessary.

So want to elaborate on that?

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

Assuming that's referring to jacob's jump not flow for larger game self meta what is the purpose of the question. If you'd rather answer after jacob answers your question I don't mind. Either way I want to know what that question is trying to understand that would help (and more specifically what a good answer would be as compared to a bad answer).

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

Despite this drawing being totally awesome and having enlightened the last 10 secs of my life, it's more than hard to grasp your reasoning regarding Josh from it (especially as i'm not sure what the post numbers refer to? your iso? but then some comments don't make sense). Can you summarize it in a few simple sentences?

Regarding serra last comments, I'd like to recall that if we generally post our own opinion, the vote will always be mutually agreed.

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

This game is intensely frustrating.

@CD: Opinions on Panzer? HD?
@hydra: Opinions on Jacob? bork?

Bork is a town read to me (ven was as well for the most part and the past reason was faking meta as a scum motivation is doubtful so the early self meta thing looked like genuine town carelessness after I decided contradiction wasn't bad). Jacob is depending on who you ask in the hydra more (me town, els null-scum and he can clarify when he posts his feelings on jacob for you if desired).

Why ask me on jacob (me defending him quite a bit should have made clear my opinion on him and that's where you'll find more on why he's town to me)?

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

His drawing is sooooo cute! (Which while it totally is, is besides the point). It's smoke & mirrors. He was asked by the Hydra to give his views on Josh/Jennifer over time, and his first drawing barely mentions Josh at all. Additionally, he alludes to finding more things he missed the first go around, which basically sounds like he's trying to find support retroactively.
And despite Jacob not addressing Hydra's question, Hydra is still defending Jacob and giving him a pass (And I don't care if it's Hydra-Els asking the questions and Hydra-M defending him.)

This head is waiting for Jacob to answer #548. There is a part of truth in what you say, but Jacob scuminess is partially offset by some towntells (yes this kind of drawing is actually a towntell). Your scuminess isn't offset by much.

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

In the same way I won't support any HD vote today, I won't support any Panzer vote today. Over-aggressive players are not good D1 lynches. They tend to become very good lynches/conftown once we get flips later.

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

(yes this kind of drawing is actually a towntell)

Really? Can you show me any other game that supports this theory that drawing is a towntell?

Why do I need to point to games to make my point? The reason that this kind of stuff is a towntell is because making it shows that the player is relaxed and prefers to do "fun stuff" rather than trying to convince people. Faking relaxedness is not that easy, and I doubt Jacob-scum would do it.

He still need to answer the question, but i'm feeling more confident about the fact he is town.

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

I'll catch up tonight on this really, but for now:

Am I supposed to call you scum repeatedly even more? I've said why multiple times. A no lynch occurring is fairly unlikely and currently with the way votes are I'll likely have you be lynched even if I just stalled. AtE really helps no body and if you cared to help you could explain your reads more and push them more (it doesn't matter if you've down it especially when you're pretty much trying to ignore all the arguing I've done with you in saying I'm not pushing you at all so yeah more can't hurt from the sounds of you).

And you can have a scum motivation for every single action. You can also have a town one. Els gave a reason why the pic is a town tell. I agree. You disagree. But you're much trying to word things in a way to make our reason as trifle or dumb as possible.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

Fine I'll give you one final reply. I won't respond to you after this since I think I've talked to you enough to be confident and firm in my read and you haven't changed my mind.

Mafia is not a game of pure logic. Nor is it a game of pure rhetoric. Nor is it one of skill in debating. As town it's simply the ability to decide who's scum. I've said why you're scum. Your responses have not changed my mind. I do not need to respond to you every time. A response can be made to nearly everything for how it's town or scum. Being able to respond to me doesn't make you better or more town. It just proves you can argue and while it can change minds the way you've pushed things hasn't changed mine at all.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

There isn't a true evil in just saying it. It's dumb to mislynch a mason. They'll get night killed but it's better to let that occur then to mislynch one which is why claims still need to occur.

I'd rather not swap at all although from those choices panzer would be my 2nd lynch choice. If I swap it'll be fairly close to deadline (within the last 8 hours) if it's to compromise.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

You realize most games mason claims only the one claiming does it. The other 2 can stay hidden (admittingly if we had a cc then I'd force the scummier mason to name a partner then the town one to name one and I'll elaborate on how that works later if needed).

I'll add currently true lynch preference is jenn > serra. There are the two actual scum reads I have.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

It makes sense if you consider the implications of it. No mason should cc the day of another mason claim unless mylo/lylo.

If 8 hours isn't enough then that's your problem. You can compromise to jen. Compromise is a fancy word for who budges first loses the lynch they want.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

No both of you are being dumb. Town should never lynch a mason without a cc. Cheery was saying delay possible cc. If a mason is alive day 2 with no cc they don't get lynched. The point is if scum fake claims that masons shouldn't cc til the day after and they'll still be considered on both sides.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

And adding the goal of this entire idea is to let confirmed townies live longer by letting scum have an incentive to keep them alive if they want to do cc.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

I honestly don't think fake claims will be a big worry since cheery's idea and mine can be done together and worst case it costs scum two players to out one mason for them (best case they out two masons and get one lynched while losing one goon).

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

Actually that's a bit off with the current version of it but forcing two claims for the one the town decides is scummier as a whole allows it fine.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

Could I proposea last second NicCage wagon. He's definitely scummier then everyone who has votes beside Goodmorning.

A very tempting proposal.

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

My other half's opinion on him basically boils down to too much fence sitting and lack of pushing much. Personally I'd rather look at klick if it's what we're basing things off primarily because of associations he has vs nic and the way they've voted.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

Omg i just reread its iso and i don't see any fence-sitting anymore. No idea about what crossed my mind, or if i just hallucinated.

ABORT NICCAGE WAGON. ABORT.

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

People voting Panzer because you think he was trying to deflect attention from a scumbuddy should vote Jennifer. It is clearly the wagon that is being protected by Panzer.

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

Sorry sorry, Mehdi told me he was afk until this evening, and I let the game slip off my mind.

So, my opinions right now:

- I'm highly suspicious of HD. Klick #780 makes some sense, but is still quite WIFOM-y.
- There is no reason to believe that competing wagons are more likely to be town than any other, especially as this is a setup where bussing/gambits are reasonable moves.
- I agree that the fact that Jacob has referenced GM and GM has more or less never referenced Jacob too is highly suspicious. Pending Mehdi approval, this is where my vote would lie.

klick, what do you think about serra defending josh for so long?
Hydra, same question

I don't think serra defense of Josh is scum defending scum. It might be scum defending town, but i find this unlikely when there is a competing scum wagon. I would say I have no reason to find serra suspicious based on the end of last day.

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

Yeah in

serra

's ISO I see a lot of town reading GM without explanation, a lot of "Let's see what happens", and then a complete flip around at deadline; bussing a partner for town cred.

Look through my reads, GM is town in most. As for "Let's see what happens" I don't quite understand what you mean, so could be, and unless I missed something both of us voted GM directly after Panzer's claim, and didn't say that much more afterwards, so yeah.

Wait. Did I just see KX answering in serra stead there?

[Docteur Gudsight]

Why get information for later use when you can lynch scum now?

I think the game could be solved via Process of Elimination and agreement among common townreads.

First of all, does anyone disagree with any of the following players being town:

KX
Jennifer
bork

Why is bork town?
I can buy the two others.

[Docteur Gudsight]

I have bad feeling about Cheery, how many of you think that he may be Scum?

Everyone can be scum. What makes you think he is more likely to be scum than others?

I'm surprised of your suspicion on him given your playstyles are extremely similar.

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

BEcuz his play style. I played with him as town, He is very different and odd here..
and what do you mean by that our playsyles are similar?

Can you describe the differences?

You both are playing low, sometimes commenting on specific points, and looking to pursue your own ideas instead of the flow of the discussion.

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

I will not likely touch this game until tomorrow so els will have to cover me a bit more here (short version v/la followed by being sick followed by catching up and school).

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

Take care

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

I have bad feeling about Cheery, how many of you think that he may be Scum?

Everyone can be scum. What makes you think he is more likely to be scum than others?

I don't like this comment. I think it's implied that if you have a scumread(/bad feeling) on someone, you have reason to believe they're more likely to be scum than others. AA was asking who agrees. I find "everyone can be scum" is quite an off-putting thing to say.

I think it should be pretty clear that I got the implied meaning of "more likely" given the second part of my question asks him exactly about that.

AA9: Can you describe the differences in playstyle and provide a link?

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

I don't believe in Serra + GM. Serra spent a lot of time defending Josh yesterday, and this would be a very strange move when one of the counterwagon is on scum.

Jacob wagon is better.

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

@HD: the fact that serra (and Panzer) launched a last minute counterwagon on NicCage doesn't remove the fact that during a good part of day1, Serra played in a way that helped in getting goodmorning lynched. Yes, it can be bussing, but it still gives town points in my book.

@NicCage: your point being?

[Docteur Gudsight]

@HD: I'm not saying serra said GM was scum. I'm saying that there was some concurrent wagons, that two of the most significant ones were Josh and GM and that serra spent time defending Josh, making the GM wagon the "default" wagon.

@NicCage: Accusations? My last posts are defenses of serra. What are you talking about? I don't care about what you said about me.

[Docteur Gudsight]

You are currently voting for serra which i believe to be town, so if you don't mind, i'll speak about the situation right now. I find highly ironic that you completely set aside my defense of serra on the basis that you are suspecting me, but that you would want to listen to me defending myself.

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

About whether Mehdi read your ISO? I'm still waiting for my cristal ball to be delivered to my home, sorry.

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

@HD: I'm not saying serra said GM was scum. I'm saying that there was some concurrent wagons, that two of the most significant ones were Josh and GM and that serra spent time defending Josh, making the GM wagon the "default" wagon.

That's a load of silly WIFOM BS that you should know better not to use

In other news serra is flailing, considering his vote is not the only thing I've been harping on and he can't prove my reasons are fabricated. (Why? Because they aren't)

Not only that, he hasn't even tried to push the NicCage wagon.

Lynch. This. Fucking. Now.

Don't use the term WIFOM as a magic card to destroy any reasoning.

Scum can bus scum, and still pushing strongly scum gives town points. Is it WIFOM? Depends of what your definition is. Still, anything that is protown should give town points, and anything that helps the scumteam gives scum points.

Here, serra behaviour yesterday helped the town to lynch scum. That makes him a bad lynch candidate today. Jacob didn't help to do anything. You (HD) weighted heavily to avoid a scum lynch. That gives both of you scum points and make you way better lynches.

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

About whether Mehdi read your ISO? I'm still waiting for my cristal ball to be delivered to my home, sorry.

~ Els

How about your change in opinion on me. After all you said panzer's proposal was tempting and then completely switched opinions. Could you explain that a little more?

I read very quickly Nic iso, found a very sentences that rubbed me the wrong way, posted it was tempting in-thread, and in our hydra QT my thoughts on him. Mehdi shared my thoughts in-thread, and NicCage said that he wasn't understanding my reasoning at all. I read the iso more carefully and saw that i was wrong, so i backtracked.

Now, can we discuss serra? What do you think about HD calling my defense of serra total WIFOM?

[Docteur Gudsight]

I guess only he can provide a definite answer, but why would he not share my opinion when i made it pretty clear to him? Iirc, he also shared a few times my reads concerning e.g. Jacob and serra in the middle of day 1.

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

I remember that this was one of the sentences that jumped to my eyes, and that i really disliked:

These reasons are pretty bad too. I dunno. I can't make heads or tails out of this. Oh, and ealier I meant to

Unvote.

Before, no i didn't have a good read on you, you were in the pile of "players that seem to be on the sidelines"

[Docteur Gudsight]

Okay, now I think that I have answered your questions to the best I can, can you reply to mine? What do you think of my defense of serra?

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

Can you explain what you meant by this?

Consider two concurrent wagons, one on scum (goodmorning), one on likely-town (Jennifer). Scum can have many behaviour:

- Vote for the town, and make sure town is lynched instead of scum (straightforward play, high risk/reward)
- Vote for the scum because they think their vote won't matter, and grab towncred (bussing, happens, but not very frequent)
- Lurk / Avoid commenting, to determine which course of action they want to take later (a very usual scum move, generally seen as a huge scumtell - reason for which i'm for the Jacob wagon)
- Create a third wagon
etc...

However, *defending* the town wagon is a very unusual move for scum. They don't get much towncred (look at how many people aren't agreeing with me), but increase significantly the odds of the scum being lynched.

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

I'll replace out tomorrow (which really just means els replaces in as himself or keeps on using the doctor account by himself) because of school stuff. For now I'll wall a bit on stuff since I haven't said much in a while:

A. My current scum team idea is gm/klick/hd. Now going into that the main reason I personally have hd as scum (and els has said other stuff I think) is the way he's argued several things. Multiple times he's done more to try to make his argument seem better or longer then focus on the important thing or continuously fight back everything which reminds me of his play in my mini that ended a couple days ago. His argument style in this game is more I can argue better and respond more then focus on the meaning of things (most noticeable case is the things where he isos people and includes posts he thinks are town or most of the time any argument on something he'll attack back vs discuss or question as much). Klick I'll mention near the end.

B. KX I'll annoy you but I still think he's town. I also currently think AA's town as well primarily by past experience and there are some things like the cheery push which while annoying don't really have a scum motivation with the way she's going about it.

C. Let me clear up the serra thing (and hd I'm ignoring whatever response I see from you on this afterward). She defended the counter wagon to gm a lot. She didn't bus gm when that's far more noticeable and easier to get town cred. Scum don't wifom very often and it's exaggerated (there's a nice wikia article on it) since by definition it commonly involves non ideal play. But more so it isn't something most people would notice. I think els was the first to mention it but how many of you actually noticed that even with her town read on gm she was helping him get lynched with all the josh defense? If we're one of the only people to notice it the idea she'd fake it is very doubtful. HD you only called it wifom and such after it was pointed out which kind of shows you didn't notice it either so it's very doubtful she'd plan it and expect it to help her (it also requires more skill then I expect she has since good wifom is honestly pretty rare). Serra is someone both sides of this hydra currently believe is very likely town.

D. Nic is also town to me for the way he with els and the biggest town tell in it was the way he tried to clarify something on a previous thing said that came off to me mostly to help in clarity and not really attack or push.

E. Jennifer is pretty town to me based on the events of yesterday. For her to be scum it's needed for her under high pressure to decide the best course of action is to bus hard on someone with previously near 0 suspicion and try to remove votes from herself with that (if it was only the first it could be argued it was to make him look better and she planned to die but together it was an unnecessary bus since she was already dealing with the votes without that). Bussing that much is still a big town tell and I don't care what wifom argument anyone tries to say on this.

F. Cheery's question would be I think I just went off past memory back then since back then I never remembered nic as a key player. As for a cheery read I still think he's town with a decent portion on tone/AA reaction stuff plus I think his choice to scum read us day 1 before the suspicion really occurred at all also looks town to me.

G. Originally I had bork as a town read for replacement and going in stuff but honestly I think him and klick are both coasting. To me they lean scum but are honestly not strong reads. HD/bork/gm I can see fine too and klick is just worse in I think his early posts sound cautious and trying to look like usual town brave klick at the same time so the tone disconnect early on hurts him while bork's entrance helps him a bit but not too much.

H. Jacob's picture is still a strong town tell. Beyond the prettiness, look at what it actually contained and tell me how easy it is to fake thoughts that detailed on posts as scum.

So together:

Town (no real order)
Jennifer
KX
AA
Jacob
Nic
serra
Cheery

Scum (strongest to weakest read)
HD
Klick
Bork

I. On the mason thing they'll never die anyway by lynch because of claim (unless cc which can happen if they claim now) so the benefits of what hd's arguing for them to claim already practically exist and all it really gets us is the con of them dying sooner. Similar to my serra defense I'm not going to go back and forth on hd with this.

J. Lastly any last questions to me or anything I missed and people would like me to comment on today/tomorrow tell me. I will replace out tomorrow.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

Oh one other thing. KX if you want a list of meta for me go look for the name mehdi2277 on the mafia scum wiki. About the first 20 of my games are talked a bit about on that page and all have links on it (if you want more go to Mehdi2277's user page and look at topics I've posted in and check the ones that are mafia games).

On the questioning part in Meta Mafia I got the role role cop for the reasoning that I ask a lot of questions and have said so. I'm pretty self-meta conscious. Neatness is kind of connected to me being pretty organized with game stuff (plans I've written in marketplace mafia and detective mafia as town support that).

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

I didn't want to vote until Mehdi came back, but given it seems i'm on my own from now, let's do this.

I'll let me tempt myself with the very tasty HD wagon. Jacob could be a very good backup wagon.

Vote: HD

~ Els

(i will not change account, i don't have any concurrent games, so i think it is better for everyone that i stay on this account)

[Docteur Gudsight]

there are quite a few different wagons, so some kind of compromise will have to be reached. I personally think HD would be the best lynch, though one on Serra, the Hydra, or Nic I would support

So basically, you have no opinion on the Nic/HD vs serra/me recent debate, and you just want to lynch any? Hrmf.

[Docteur Gudsight]

Assuming you're still here, what is the time difference in relation to points D & F?

I'm not fully sure what you're asking but the nic town tell I was referring to is this (reason why it was is back in that wall in whichever one talked about nic):

No. I think you could be scum with serra

Just to be clear, the no was for the jacob wagon being better. I realize now from rereading your posts that you might not have gotten that. So when I was talking about accusations I meant the Jacob wagon.

So it came after day 1. As for how you being on us earlier on is a town tell now that's really just re-thinking things.

HD you had people like norl fos you for the way you argued. That argument applies here as well. Whenever someone gave multiple reasons for you scum like slandaar or norl you tended to argue everything where it seemed more argue for the sake of it to be the last responded similar to how you argue everything here. A case you might not have done but the idea you're focusing on arguing look thorough and last response over meaning still applies fully.

Nic I don't honestly know which question you're referring to. I responded to cheery's thing on whether I checked your iso in the wall and read wise for some of the serra questions I think is also covered in that wall.

And to CS this account will essentially become els since I'd like to replace out (so don't worry about a replacement).

~Mehdi

[Docteur Gudsight]

And to CS this account will essentially become els since I'd like to replace out (so don't worry about a replacement).

~Mehdi

Noted. I take it you'll keep posting under this account, els?

Yes.

[Docteur Gudsight]

(sigh)

Can someone explain me why is it so freaking important whether mehdi had or not a read on NicCage before quoting what i said in the hydra topic?

Because apart from being a GIANT DISTRACTION, it is absolutely and totally irrelevant.

Can we move to useful stuff now, like lynching HD?

Thanks,

~ Els

[Docteur Gudsight]

^ And this is why HD must hang.

Permanently faking "scumhunting" while all it does is distording facts and arguing to overpush weak cases.

OH REALLY JOSH/JENNIFER WASN'T A COUNTERWAGON TO GOODMORNING?

Votecount 1.10

Jennifer (L-3):

Docteur Gudsight, Cheery Dog, JacobSavage, NicCage

goodmoring (L-4):

ArcAngel9, Jennifer, Panzerjager

JacobSavage (L-4):

Human Destroyer, serrapaladin, borkjerfkin

ArcAngel9 (L-6):

goodmorning

Not voting (2):

Klick, KX

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2013-02-06 11:00:00)

Votecount 1.11

Jennifer (L-3):

Docteur Gudsight, Cheery Dog, JacobSavage, NicCage

JacobSavage (L-4):

serrapaladin, borkjerfkin, Jennifer

Panzerjager (L-4):

Human Destroyer, goodmorning

goodmoring (L-5):

ArcAngel9, Panzerjager

Not voting (2):

Klick, KX

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2013-02-06 11:00:00)

Sorry for the lack of vote counts yesterday. I've been busy.

Votecount 1.12

Jennifer (L-3):

Docteur Gudsight, Cheery Dog, JacobSavage, NicCage

goodmoring (L-4):

ArcAngel9, Panzerjager, Klick

JacobSavage (L-4):

serrapaladin, borkjerfkin, Jennifer

Panzerjager (L-5):

Human Destroyer, goodmorning

Not voting (1):

KX

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2013-02-06 11:00:00)

Votecount 1.13

goodmorning (L-1):

Klick, Panzerjager, serrapaladin, KX, ArcAngel9, Jennifer

Jennifer (L-3):

Docteur Gudsight, Cheery Dog, JacobSavage, NicCage

Panzerjager (L-5):

goodmorning, Human Destroyer

JacobSavage (L-6):

borkjerfkin

Not voting (0):

With 13 alive, it's 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2013-02-06 11:00:00)

Votecount 1.14

goodmorning (Lynch!):

Klick, Panzerjager, serrapaladin, KX, ArcAngel9, Jennifer, borkjerfkin

Jennifer (L-3):

Docteur Gudsight, Cheery Dog, JacobSavage, NicCage

Panzerjager (L-5):

goodmorning, Human Destroyer

Not voting (0):

A lynch has been reached. The game is now in twilight. You're allowed to post and discuss the game until I get the flip up, however, votes will no longer be counted, nor can you change them in any way.

[Docteur Gudsight]

And uh, yeah, serra was pushing a Jacob counterwagon to goodmorning

They're right in the votecounts you quoted

Like really this is a completely retarded defense fo serra you're making here

Yeah, again you misrepresent my defense in order to push your agenda.

I'm not saying serra pushed for goodmorning. I said serra did defend the leading wagon (supposed on town), while a counterwagon was on scum.

[Docteur Gudsight]

No it is not. When your scummate is the #2 wagon, defending the #1 wagon while pushing a #3 wagon is increasing significantly the odds of your scummate to be lynched, and is a really counterintuitive move. I don't believe serra-scum would do such a move, ergo serra is town.

[Docteur Gudsight]

Hydra - What is your read on Serra? Town or Scum?
and what do you think of Jacob?

Seriously, read the thread. The answer of the first question is in half my posts. The answer of the second one shouldn't be very hard to find either.

[Docteur Gudsight]

So, if i'm following you, bork, according to your #992, saying that someone that helped lynch scum is probably town *is* WIFOM.

However, saying that if serra flipping scum, then people with a hard stance on him are probably town is legit reasoning.

Can you explain me what is WIFOM for you?

[Docteur Gudsight]

Is helping to lynch scum on d1 guaranteed town? No of course.

A valid d2 lynch when many people have acted much more suspiciously regarding goodmorning (see Jacob)? Definitely not.

--

In your posts, you are basically saying that strongly defending scum is less suspicious than defending a town counterwagon when scum is being wagoned. This is total crap.

[Docteur Gudsight]

Well at the very least it's total WIFOM.

[Docteur Gudsight]

I will obviously switch to serra if the only other options are my lynch or a no-lynch.

[Docteur Gudsight]

sigh and rofl at the "sure thing" from NicCage.

Vote: serrapaladin

[Docteur Gudsight]

Looks like making big posts empty of content but with big bold sentences are enough to push a case in this game...

[Docteur Gudsight]

Vote: HD

[Docteur Gudsight]

HD faking scumhunting again in #1065 and #1066. (reasoning: HD had the full night to analyze Jacob. He votes immediately Jacob, then one hour later suddenly post "internal debate" with a sudden change of mind. He definitely didn't read the Jacob full ISO between #1061 and #1065, so him suddenly discussing this post is utterly fake)

--

I love how people are still convinced i'm scum. I guess it is "WIFOM" that i almost died trying to defend serra...

[Docteur Gudsight]

Els's argument WRT to me is shitty, not everyone looks at games during the night phase, and I definitely don't with my 15+ games.

Yeah yeah, so you don't read the Jacob iso at all during the night, first post of the day you vote for him, *after* having voted him you iso him, notice a well buried post that give you a reason to unvote (an awful reason btw), and remove your vote.

Not. Buying. It.

[Docteur Gudsight]

Let me answer this one for HD: Given i'm the only one that is disagreeing with his bullshit cases, he needs to decredibilize me as much as he can, so that people that are too lazy to make their own opinion will just sheep him.

Like what happened yesterday.

[Docteur Gudsight]

@HD: Unlike you (or should i be more precise: like you pretend to do), i'm actually paying attention to flips. You are still pursuing day1 wagons as if nothing has changed while i'm taking into account flips. Serra was more or less cleared by gm flip.

Also, *I* never expressed any suspicion of serra, and i'm definitely not bound by the day1 opinions of my ex-hydramate.

Jacob wagon is good though. Even better now that HD is off it to be honest.

[Docteur Gudsight]

You pulling the WIFOM magic card, then misquoting the mod is definitely not a disproval.

[Docteur Gudsight]

Um, no.

I disproved it with the fact that he was pushing a

completely different

counterwagon to both Josh/Jennifer

and

GM.

Let me quote my post, given you are continuing to misrepresent my defense, like you have been for um.. ever.

No it is not. When your scummate is the #2 wagon, defending the #1 wagon while pushing a #3 wagon is increasing significantly the odds of your scummate to be lynched, and is a really counterintuitive move. I don't believe serra-scum would do such a move, ergo serra is town.

--

Don't strawman me too much, you'll get too blatant for even your scumpartner to save you

Why aren't you voting me then? Yeah, because you think Nic will be an easier wagon, and you only care about people not listening to me.

[Docteur Gudsight]

Wait holy fuck this just completely dawned on me

NicCage rode out the serra wagon based on my push, saying if he flipped scum, Els was scum with him

But since he flipped town (which Nic knew going in), he said Els could be town

Fuck this makes complete and total sense

...I think?

^

An example of making evidence to fit reads. He says Nic is scum, he says i'm scum

then

he suddenly pulls a reason for us to be scum.

[Docteur Gudsight]

After flips, making connections is town yes. Just 2 hours after having declared your scumreads, it's just a cheap and scummy way to overpush a case.

[Docteur Gudsight]

Because like with the Jacob "towntell" you realized 1 hour after having voting him, despite having had commented on that post, and had a full night to read isos, the fact you "realize" this fact 1 hour after having posted your scumreads looks incredibly fake and a cheap way to say "oh look i'm posting my thoughts aloud, please sheep me"

[Docteur Gudsight]

lol it's scummy because it looks

fake

and cheap

It is fake because the timing is off. Both the Jacob thing and the "omg Doc might have defended serra for towncred" (which is again beautiful a "i won't give townpoints for townacts, because scum can do it too", aka bullshit) are things you could/should have thought before your original votes/scumreads.

[Docteur Gudsight]

And the fact that you "explained" stuff doesn't suddenly make it disappear.

I don't expect scum to say "oh sorry, you caught a scumslip, my bad. I will do better next time".

[Docteur Gudsight]

+ Faking scumhunting
+ Having pushed only town wagons
+ Faking thought processes
+ Overpushing cases

No, the case is not empty. Let's see how much sheep you get this time, that will listen to your cases based on ... um that i'm attacking you? that i defended serra yesterday on a "bullshit" reasoning?

[Docteur Gudsight]

1) You haven't proved anything I've actually said is fake, you've just said they're fake

I'm specifically thinking of

this

here.

2) SCUMSLIP ALERT: YOU KNOW JENNIFER AND JACOB ARE TOWN, YOU MUST BE SCUM

I obviously speak only about those of day1 and day2. You aren't pushing Jacob. I consider Jennifer town yeah.

[Docteur Gudsight]

Indeed, I forgot that between the Jennifer wagon and the Panzer wagon, you went on Jacob. Let's say then that your voting record on day 1 doesn't look exactly good, given you basically voted for three different wagons, but omitting the scum one.

OH LOOK I HAVE A DIFFERENT OPINION ON SOMETHING THAN YOU

MUST BE SUPER-FAKE

^ Trying to misrepresent my "this looks fake" as "i disagree with HD", while my "this looks fake" were purely based on timing.

[Docteur Gudsight]

That's a pretty quick L-1. Careful

[Docteur Gudsight]

My vote is on HD, not Jacob.

[Docteur Gudsight]

+ Faking scumhunting

[b/]

+ Having pushed only town wagons [/b]
+ Faking thought processes
+ Overpushing cases

No, the case is not empty. Let's see how much sheep you get this time, that will listen to your cases based on ... um that i'm attacking you? that i defended serra yesterday on a "bullshit" reasoning?

To bolded, you can be more specific? If i recall correctly, HD was pushing mroe two wagons...
Good Mornings, Panzer's and Jacob's.. Which two these you're referring too?

You recall incorrectly. HD never pushed for GM.

[Docteur Gudsight]

I have finished my catch up... I haven't changed my read on Josh, He still looks scummy to me and over the 5 page he hasn't done anything to defend himself and according to the Mod he is currently under prod. so I am not going waste my vote someone who is obviously going to be replaced. so

unvote josh

for now!! If Josh is back. I ll change my vote back to him.

Another person i am concerned about is Good Morning, He agrees with everyone about Josh being scum but actually didn't vote him, and his reads on others didn't sit well as posted.

VOTE: GoodMorning

UNVOTE:
VOTE: ArcAngel9

Are you voting AA9 because he joined a wagon on scum, or is there something more in the post i don't see?

[Docteur Gudsight]

Starting a wagon on scum should never (or well, almost never, the exception being when it is obviously fake) give scumpoints. Using the bussing card to say that it doesn't give huge townpoints, why not. But giving scumpoints because it could be an attempt of bussing is bad. In this case, I don't see any reason (in the post quoted) to believe she was faking.

I don't see "the other scuminess she is producing".

[Docteur Gudsight]

I checked the AA9 iso, and i'm fairly certain that all the posts she made were made in the intent of lynching goodmorning. So either the scum went for a super-bussing strat day1 (possible, but unlikely), or she is town.

I'm thinking specifically of posts like #460 and #676 (interestingly, both are replies to a GM defense by Cheery Dog)

Because of this, i'm now seeing Cheery Dog as particularly scummy. If I can't get a HD or Jacob lynch, a Dog lynch will be okay.

[Docteur Gudsight]

A precision for #676: this kind of post doesn't look like scum bussing because scum trying to bus/get towncred will try to get credit for the wagon. Scum wouldn't say things like "uh that's not my wagon" when it is on scum, it is something that town scared to lynch town/be framed would say.

[Docteur Gudsight]

I would also like to note how ridiculously fast my wagon is building, a grand indication that it is on a townie.

Goodmorning's wagon grew at the approximately the same speed, so come again with this point?

Uh oh. (this was before GM flip)

Unvote, Vote: Cheery Dog

[Docteur Gudsight]

Klick (...) have been prodded.

I'm afraid dead people are allowed to lurk >.>

[Docteur Gudsight]

I buy the claim. Cheery never attacked Panzer, and passively defended him at some point.

Unvote, Vote: HD

Back to this one.

[Docteur Gudsight]

I am no longer sure what to ought for this game anymore.
Now everyone seem to move another direction.....

Docteur - Why did you vote HD?

Why would i not vote HD? He was my main suspect before Cheery Dog pinged my scumdar.

[Docteur Gudsight]

The comment "This is a trick question" of the first post was to make sure that AA9 would hopefully take time to answer the question, and provide more ample information.

For the second post, I asked that because (paraphrased from hydra quicktopic)

#513 is really derp. So first, jason declares that Josh is likely town, then he puts a L-1 vote on him, then justifies the vote saying it was "a lynch for information and it is hard to find a L-1 replacement", and now he continues pushing.

I don't know if it's town or scum, but it's quite bad.

and i wanted to know which one it was.

[Docteur Gudsight]

Also why are you saying that Mehdi pushed for NicCage based on my opinion? His only post on the subject is the following, which simply paraphrase what i wrote in quicktopic, then says he doesn't really agree.

My other half's opinion on him basically boils down to too much fence sitting and lack of pushing much. Personally I'd rather look at klick if it's what we're basing things off primarily because of associations he has vs nic and the way they've voted.

~M

[Docteur Gudsight]

Can anyone that sees HD as town explain why?

[Docteur Gudsight]

w/e. At least i'm done with this game.

Cheery: mason but dumb
HD: scum
Jason: most likely scum
KX: hard to read someone that does nothing
AA9: obv town
NicCage: town sheep

[Docteur Gudsight]

What about bork and jenn?

jennifer most likely town because of d1.
bork i remember nothing significant about.

[Docteur Gudsight]

Lynch HD tomorrow plz.

And stop following people because they make big posts in next game.

[Docteur Gudsight]

Thanks City for the game. This setup is cool.

I have no clue how we could have let Jacob live.

gg wp.

[Docteur Gudsight]

Let's all be friends and blame everything on Mehdi.

IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT MEHDI YOU KNEW I WOULD GET LYNCHED IF I WAS LEFT ALONE IN THIS CRUEL WORLD.