Open 566: Murder on the Oriental Express (Game Over)

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Vote: Amy Farrah Fowler

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

You can vote for yourself?

Of course. I saw a bandwagon forming, and what better way is there to get in on all the action than voting for the poor sucker being bandwagoned?

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

You can vote for yourself?

Of course. I saw a bandwagon forming, and what better way is there to get in on all the action than voting for the poor sucker being bandwagoned?

Funny, but I typically see people question the wagon. Is it normal for people to vote for you?

No, not really, but personally I see no point in questioning RVS votes too much.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

What is the point of voting for oneself? Avoiding voting someone else?

Because oneself is evil and surely out to murder everyone.

Vote: Mr_Blonde

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

I think I'll change my vote.

Vote: Astinus

Because I can.

Why did you decide to hop off the Amy bandwagon for the sake of another RVS vote, this time on yourself?

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Amy, I think "because he can" is his reasoning, but it also kind of strikes me as a bit arbitrary.

It's not really the reasoning that I'm confused about/picking at. It's more about the purpose (or lack thereof) of changing an RVS vote to another RVS vote. 'Because I can' can't be classified as reasoning, ever. To me it looks a bit like edging off the bandwagon in case something serious happens with it. The post with the Wiki info that was right above his probably got him to think twice about bandwagoning. If he wanted to change votes then he was welcome to get the game out of RVS.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Forgot:

Vote: Astinus

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Unvote

and

Vote Mr Blonde

Something makes me think he is mafia.

Would you like to inform us of what that something is?
Or if it's gut feeling then are there any specific posts that provoked it?

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

VOTE: TobyLoby

Why?

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Chaos, you hopped onto the farside bandwagon rather quickly. Do you have any other reads on anyone else?
And allow me to interject your statement about a wagon on Mr Blonde building quickly. Because I see no 'wagon' on him, only one or two votes tops.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Astinus, Skelda, Cerberus, Acryon. As people who haven't voted in a non-RVS way or voted at all yet, how do you see the present situation?

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Beli, please tone down the sarcasm just a tad as it's not necessary and does nothing to aid the conversation.

I do agree, however, that two games' worth of evidence should not be enough to warrant a lynch on someone. But I can see that the intention behind providing the examples wasn't bad. Still, no cause for lynching either the accused or accuser just for that.

People voting for farside: What are the 'bad case' vs the 'scummy' aspects of farside's play thus far?

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Also, I feel like I can

Unvote

Astinus. There's no need to overemphasize an RVS error. Perhaps I'm being a little more lenient due to his newness. While this is admittedly bad, I see something like that as a legitimate newbie mistake, and definitely not a serious error by any means.

However I'd like to pay attention to Belisarius's actions so far.
I noticed he uses a fair bit of sarcasm when criticizing a case that he disagrees with. While not a scumtell on its own, the fact that he uses it to discredit others' arguments makes it scummy. Don't interpret this as 'sarcasm is scummy', because that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that (mainly) your most recent post gives off a vibe I don't like, and could certainly have sounded more townish.
As Skelda mentioned, farside is certainly a rather easy wagon right now, and while that doesn't mean everyone on it is automatically scum, it can certainly be indicative of it.

Ergo:

Vote: Belisarius

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

If I were to pick out my two strongest townreads at this point (yes, it is exceptionally early in the game, but just from the little data we have so far), they would be acryon and Skelda. Both have posted fairly thorough posts which have a good amount of analysis and opinion in there, both of which have contained some original (i.e. not re-worded off someone else) analysis.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Amy

, what are your thoughts on farside?

I can see that farside isn't simply pushing her replacement tell (I'll call it that for now). She's also involved in other elements of the game, commenting and asking question, so townpoints to her in that respect, as I've noticed that sometimes scum looking to lynch town tend to spend all their time focusing on their lynch target of choice.
As for her replacement tell, whatever my personal thoughts on it may be, it looks like she genuinely believes in it. Scum using it ONLY to lynch someone would've probably dropped the case much earlier without bothering to do things like bringing up evidence. She is also analyzing Mr Blonde's reactions, adding to the fact that it's genuine.
So I'd say I can classify farside as Null/Town.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Do you have any player(s) that you're leaning scum on currently besides Beli?

Chaos, for reasons that I can see other people have mentioned before, in addition to the fact that, when ISO'ing him, I noticed that his only serious post was the hop onto the wagon. No other opinions, no questioning, just that. It adds to the scumminess of the wagon jump.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Let me ask you, because this is specific and rare.

Rare? This game required

four

replacements pregame. In a mini. Wow, that's a lot of scum for a mini. Better lynch all of the pregame replacements. Let's start with you. If you flip town, I'll volunteer to go next.

I don't know whether you're an idiot or just scum trying to push something that's a 'good reason for a lynch'.

That's not what farside is saying. Farside said that typically requesting to be replaced while being active elsewhere on the site is a tell indicative of a scum slot. I haven't had enough direct experience with cases like that to push for either side of the argument myself, but I get the theory.

Why are you turning this into argumentum ad absurdum by changing the argument to involve all replacements, requested or not? Stop inflating something to a ridiculous level and then criticizing the outcome, because that's dumb and won't give you any towncred whatsoever.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Also, Beli, do you have any thoughts on anyone else playing in this game? All you've done so far is repeated yourself and tunnelled farside.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Astinus, now that we're well out of RVS, how do you feel about the current farside situation and the people participating? Do you have any strong townreads or scumreads?

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

From your point of view, would would be your most likely vote right now?

The best way to learn to scumhunt is to play the game and see how things pan out. Look at posts, see if something jumps out at you. If you have a gut feeling about someone then try and find out what prompted it.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Generally players that hand out reads for seemingly arbitrary reasons get the stink eye from me.

Fair enough but I rarely find reasons to suspect people other than arbitrary ones so prepare to give me a lot of stink eyes.

Townpoints for the above post.

While I partially agree with acryon and hope you find some legitimate reasons too, this post jumps out to me as towny, if only because I can't really see scum, especially newbie scum, replying in that way.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Chaos' post,

Also, your case against Mr.Blonde has no real evidence against it and I do not understand why a wagon is building on him so early because of a post where he said "let's dance."

I do find scummy, but in the past I've found it to be a stronger associative tell than a flat out. A scum coming in to defend their buddy sort of way. Two votes on a buddy may look more dire than it is. I can especially see this with a newer player. I suppose it could be a scum Chaos busing a scum farside and overexagerrating a wagon but I find it less likely.

I like this post.

I think the tone of the post reinforces the defensive aspect. It's a slight example of more reductio ad absurdum, whereby chaos is suggesting that the phrase 'let's dance' was the cause of a 'wagon'. Some specific wording in the post like 'no real evidence' for example, also give off a scummy vibe.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Amy

, what are your thoughts on farside?

I can see that farside isn't simply pushing her replacement tell (I'll call it that for now). She's also involved in other elements of the game, commenting and asking question, so townpoints to her in that respect, as I've noticed that sometimes scum looking to lynch town tend to spend all their time focusing on their lynch target of choice.
As for her replacement tell, whatever my personal thoughts on it may be, it looks like she genuinely believes in it. Scum using it ONLY to lynch someone would've probably dropped the case much earlier without bothering to do things like bringing up evidence.

She is also analyzing Mr Blonde's reactions, adding to the fact that it's genuine.

So I'd say I can classify farside as Null/Town.

Where have you seen this analysis?

In post 41 she mentions that she was going to see how the replacement reacts, and she mentioned that so far you were pretty nonplussed about it.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

And who's scum-reading me, and for what reason?

Not a fan of this post.

On a different note, instead of bickering over some GD issue and asking scummy questions, how do you feel about actually participating? Y'know, post your opinions about others, ask questions, take a look at posts that other people have found scummy/townish and throw in your opinion. You've seen the other people playing do this, it's your turn now.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

A.F.F. is probably my best town read so far.

The first few posts that I really noticed from her seemed like she was just trying to appear to be participating as I saw her throwing questions out and I felt she was trying to mediate more than participate in the discussion itself.

Now that I see her reacting to some of the responses with her opinions, I'm feeling better about her.

Out of curiosity, in which posts was I trying to appear to participate, and how did they differ from the participation level of others around that time?

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

And who's scum-reading me, and for what reason?

Not a fan of this post.

On a different note, instead of bickering over some GD issue and asking scummy questions, how do you feel about actually participating? Y'know, post your opinions about others, ask questions, take a look at posts that other people have found scummy/townish and throw in your opinion. You've seen the other people playing do this, it's your turn now.

I'm not sure who WOULD be a fan of that post.

Which of course begs the question of if scum would do something so blatantly scummy. He is new, and based on what he has given us so far, he just seems like an easy target to me. There is, of course, the off chance that he actually is scum, I don't think his play would be much different. But I don't think we have quite enough to make that decision yet. And most people seem to agree with me and have him as null.

I think having him as anything else is scummy.

It is interesting how quickly the Chaos wagon is taking off. What is Chaos guilty of that Beli isn't other than not being around?

I'm not sure about that bolded part. Sometimes us not having quite enough to make a decision about her, especially at a point like this where we have enough to form a fairly stable read on anyone else, is scummy in itself. I don't like the fact that she posts something that's not especially relevant to this game (or asks a pretty awkward question) and then hides and keeps this one-irrelevant-post-a-day style up. It's the reason that most people have her as null, and every single extra post that adds to her crappost total is an extra notch on her scumminess scale (for me). So I have her as Null/Leaning scum right now. She can redeem herself by posting something smart, but right now she's getting scummier with every post.

On a note unrelated to my previous paragraph, I'm inclined to disagree with calling that post

blatantly

scummy. I can see noobtown/derptown posting something like that, but dismissing her as an easy target due to newness is a little much considering her lack of contribution towards the game.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Dry-fit, SnugglyDuckling and Royal Ape would be my scumpicks, based on discussions they picked out for themselves and how they responded to them. And I'm leaning null-scum on Amy and Skelda.

That's pretty interesting, considering most people don't have those as scumpicks. However you could have elaborated a bit more instead of going with something generic and wishy-washy. Please do provide examples.
And what are your reads on Bel and Chaos right now?

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

If Chaos had been new then I might've thought about him possibly running away due to serping, regardless of alignment, but he isn't, making it scummy. Although he did say that he was out of town, so I suppose we can wait and see what he comes up with.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

*derping not serping
[my inner grammar Naziism had to fix the above]

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

A no lynch will most likely hurt town in the long run, and we're approx. halfway through the day right now. At the moment votes on various people are going something like 4, 2, 1, 1, 1, so we have many small/ish wagons. I'm not a fan of any of the non-voters (not including Royal), because right now votes would help move the game along, and talking without voting is a pretty good way to avoid too much attention. For example if any of the people who were called out for something but don't have any votes on them had provided a vote in any of their posts, they'd probably get scumread by some people.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

A no lynch will most likely hurt town in the long run, and we're approx. halfway through the day right now. At the moment votes on various people are going something like 4, 2, 1, 1, 1, so we have many small/ish wagons. I'm not a fan of any of the non-voters (not including Royal), because right now votes would help move the game along, and talking without voting is a pretty good way to avoid too much attention. For example if any of the people who were called out for something but don't have any votes on them had provided a vote in any of their posts, they'd probably get scumread by some people.

Did you count the votes yourself or are you just very in tune with Belisaurius? I just find it interesting that your count is accurate when the mod's vote count that was posted this morning is off by way of the Belisaurius vote.

Because I bothered to count. Sue me.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Amy Farrah Fowler's content looks good but I suspect she's an experienced player who's more than capable of duping us. Going to withhold judgement for now.

Ironically enough I'm a new account with not THAT much in the way of experience.

But thank you

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

I don't like the fact that she posts something that's not especially relevant to this game (or asks a pretty awkward question) and then hides and keeps this one-irrelevant-post-a-day style up. It's the reason that most people have her as null, and every single extra post that adds to her crappost total is an extra notch on her scumminess scale (for me). So I have her as Null/Leaning scum right now. She can redeem herself by posting something smart, but right now she's getting scummier with every post.

Actually I'm pretty confident Astinus is town. She's taking a pretty carefree approach to this game.

Hmm... I diasgree. I wouldn't call that 'carefree'.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

I think my vote is better off on someone else for pressure than on him at this point.

Don't you think that, bearing in mind the deadline, it's a little late to be pressure voting and expecting some sort of effect right now?

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

What was your thought in Toby? She bugs me to no end.

didnt like his first vote...

other than that has not bothered me. feel like he is asking good questions.

Do you feel that good questions make up for a lack of reads? I also notice that at times when the reply to one of Toby's questions is worth following up on someone else takes over. Not a fan of that, questions, unlike reads, are a harmless way to stay involved in the game.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

I'll get more in-depth with things later tonight. I think Astinus' behavior is more of a personality tell than an alignment tell.

I'd take that as a good point, right? I can hide my alignment beneath my personality and nobody will e able to tell who I am?

^ troll

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

The Skelda lynch shouldn't have happened, and I don't know why it did.

I feel like right now if one of Beli/CKD/Chaos is scum then so are the other two.

Chaos was the largest BW in the game at one point (I think, correct me if I'm wrong). CKD came in and tried his hardest to change to a different bandwagon in order to avoid a scumbuddy getting lynched. He was successful.
Pretty early on in the game Chaos blatantly sheeped one of Beli's votes within two posts. Chaos is fairly new, so it's something that's not too unexpected.
In-thread they don't really pay too much attention to one another.

A Beli lynch should've happened yesterday. We were close. Let's make it happen now.

Vote: Belisarius

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

So I'm thinking my strongest scumvibe is Amy. My reasoning is that she pushed for a Beli wagon yesterday, but started to get off of it and lean towards me but then she disappeared for quite some time and then comes back, post evidence that seems to be against me but then votes Beli. It comes off a little fishy for me.

Vote: Amy Farrah Fowler

At which point did I attempt to get off it? My vote was there the entire time, pertinent to my highest scumread. While I was less active later on in the day due to a heavier workload IRL, I don't believe I received any prods yet, and therefore my activity would generally be regarded as sufficient.

I posted evidence against CKD, Beli and you, and voted for Beli. This was because out of those, if one had to be town then it'd be CKD, you're scummy but have a 10% chance of being a worse-than-usual village idiot, leaving Beli. So pay attention.

And what happened to your other scumreads? How did I suddenly get so big?

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

I feel like if I had to correlate flips and reads then if:
CKD = scum then Beli = scum (defence of Beli, deflected wagon)
Beli = scum then Chaos = scum (protectiveness, made up an imaginary wagon earlier in the game), a little more so than CKD (as mentioned above)
Chaos = scum then Beli = Scum (defence, as mentioned above)

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Nope! I don't grok the case on chaos at all. Chaos is just lynchbait.

Do you feel that dismissing someone as lynchbait is always a good option? A village idiot or just someone who happens to be having a bad game can be dismissed by town for being

that

bad and can easily lounge through the remainder of the game.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

The Skelda lynch shouldn't have happened, and I don't know why it did.

I feel like right now if one of Beli/CKD/Chaos is scum then so are the other two.

Chaos was the largest BW in the game at one point (I think, correct me if I'm wrong). CKD came in and tried his hardest to change to a different bandwagon in order to avoid a scumbuddy getting lynched. He was successful.
Pretty early on in the game Chaos blatantly sheeped one of Beli's votes within two posts. Chaos is fairly new, so it's something that's not too unexpected.
In-thread they don't really pay too much attention to one another.

A Beli lynch should've happened yesterday. We were close. Let's make it happen now.

Vote: Belisarius

You just gave a bunch of reasoning of why Chaos and CKD are prob scum but not so much Beli. Why aren't you voting either of them over Beli?

Where did you disappear off to last day btw.

The Beli read is 10% gut, 10% associative tell based on the assumption that one of CKD and Chaos are scum, and 80% because of the fact that content-wise a lot of his posts have been wailing about a lack of reads or some crap like that, along with play that I'd categorise as 'generally scummy IMO'.

My absence was due to bad IRL time management on my part. I apologise, my bad and all that crap.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Sorry. Like Beli, I have nothing to add at this point. The game's at a point where the main activity is waiting for wagons to get big.

I'll try to find something when I have a little more time.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

The game's at a point where the main activity is waiting for wagons to get big.

so you are a reactive player then?

are you following the game closely?

What do you mean by a 'reactive player'?

And... I guess I'm following the game closely. I assume everyone else is too...

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Sorry. Like Beli, I have nothing to add at this point. The game's at a point where the main activity is waiting for wagons to get big.

I'll try to find something when I have a little more time.

Who else are you scum reading besides bel? What do you think of the discussion going on of the theory.

Thanks CKD. Mostly I just feel numb currently.
Also I thought more about what your theory is about me and I realized I think I've done that more often then not when I was scum.
Did you meta me?

I'm making the assumption that Beli is scum, and based on my theory Chaos and CKD are also scum.
If Beli winds up being town then I'll need to look into my other reads as a whole and see who's a blip on my scum radar.

Which theory in particular do you mean?

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Sorry. Like Beli, I have nothing to add at this point. The game's at a point where the main activity is waiting for wagons to get big.

I'll try to find something when I have a little more time.

Who else are you scum reading besides bel? What do you think of the discussion going on of the theory.

Thanks CKD. Mostly I just feel numb currently.
Also I thought more about what your theory is about me and I realized I think I've done that more often then not when I was scum.
Did you meta me?

I'm making the assumption that Beli is scum, and based on my theory Chaos and CKD are also scum.
If Beli winds up being town then I'll need to look into my other reads as a whole and see who's a blip on my scum radar.

Which theory in particular do you mean?

There was a bel/acryon discussion going on.

I don't think acryon or CKD is scum together.
Can you explain why bel/chaos makes sense? I read or trollish and the other lurking.
Also the defending of players is something I see from scum/scum players.

I haven't had a proper scumread on acryon at p-much any point during the game, so I don't know how much of an input I could make in that respect. But I don't see them as scum together.
I don't think acryon/CKD are scum together either.
I've previously stated why Bel/Chaos make sense. Chaos has made a few noob-scum mistakes and linked himself to Beli through those.
I don't base much of a read around lurking aside from special cases where the lurking is truly scummy. And trollish would be fine if we got enough content to make up for the trolling.
And if I see something as defending, as opposed to simple rationalising then I agree with the scum/scum thing.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

The game's at a point where the main activity is waiting for wagons to get big.

so you are a reactive player then?

are you following the game closely?

What do you mean by a 'reactive player'?

And... I guess I'm following the game closely. I assume everyone else is too...

so if the game is at that point...AND you have nothing to add. do you have anything to ask? do you feel like your playstyle is to stir the pot and see what happens or sit back and let others do the work. What type of play is the most pro-town in your view?

how many games of mafia/werewolf have you ever played?

I usually ask something if I feel it's worth asking. I don't like to ask for the sake of it. Ditto with stirring the pot. If I find a worthwhile and productive opportunity then I'll go for it. If it's something that's not open-ended and will simply piss people off then I tend not to. I feel like calling the other option sitting back and letting others do the work isn't the best way of going about that. Mafia is generally a game involving teamwork. If someone else finds something and wishes to contribute and gives us more to work with then brilliant. And later on if I find something based on recent events then I'll contribute. And just like that town can progress. So as long as someone isn't ONLY sitting back and occasionally chipping in with fluff and only fluff, I think it's fair to say that.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Whoops, forgot to answer the second question. I haven't PLAYED much. Couple of real life games, and a bit of EpicMafia (which doesn't really count as

mafia

). I've quickly skimmed a little bit of theory and a few games that piqued my interest, but haven't ever

studied

the game much.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Have you played mafia before,

Amy

? You don't strike me as a newbie player.

As stated in my previous post, I haven't played much. I decided to just jump into this and see how things go. I like to think I have a pretty decent mindset for this sort of thing, so maybe that helped.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Amy: thoughts on ape here.

Hmm. Late start but contributed a lot as he came in, a good portion of that being original observations, so townpoints for that. He appeared to be picking out townreads instead of merely talking, so that's nice. A few statements that provoked some discussion related to them, but I don't think I have any more to contribute to those than what has already been said. There was one particular post and his defences against it that I wasn't a fan of. Recently there's been less activity from him but what there has been wasn't fluff for the most part so I'm fine with that. His most recent post is interesting. No read on it either way.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

@Mod V/LA until Saturday.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Look at CKD WK'ing the fuck out of me. When I'm gone, lynch him next.

You know, if you push reads like that in the same way that the rest of us are, and had done so throughout the game, then you wouldn't be in this position right now. If you're town then you're kinda playing against your wincon here.

And just wondering, why are you so certain you'll be gone? You pulled the same stuff yesterday and yet town mislynched Skelda instead.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Just to clear up the above post, I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with that particular read of Beli's. Just pointing something out.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

@Mod V/LA until Saturday.

So your vote stands?

Correct.

I feel no need to change my vote right now. Part of me wants Beli policy-lynched, because I can see he doesn't give a fuck about the game, and would do us a favour by getting out if he has no intention of helping town (and making two sentence posts without reasoning doesn't count). The policy part of the lynch wasn't there when I first voted Beli, but I'm done waiting for a rational post of any kind.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Amy. Do you think that comment of Beli seems townie, or townier than Beli-usual to you?

Um... neither. It's just a post made by Beli. I'm pointing out that he may have done his case some favours and made it townie if he had gone about it a better way. But put this way I'd say it hasn't got much behind it.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Personal principle - I always self hammer. Just putting that out there.

CDB is scum. Chaos (whom he replaced) showed some real associative tells with Belisarius. CDB is scum. Chaos dropped noobscum tells. CDB is scum. Chaos openly delayed posting. CDB is scum.

Vote: CDB

.

Kudos to both Beli and one of CDB's posts for instantly making everyone vote for me. I'm not even going to bother right now because clearly I'm getting lynched. Yes I'm giving up, yes it's bad, but I completely lose it when people vote me when I'm town. WIFOM alert, but as scum I tend to actually play to my wincon in these situations and try to get the wagon off me.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Beli was aware that he was going D1 or two so he decided to bring someone down with them.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

I still think scum bel would vote his scum buddy for town credit.
What did you think of bird's case?

But I don't think Beli's overall play this game wouldn't follow that.

Bird's case on who, specifically?

Amy.

It's pretty good. Specifically, I really don't like Amy's complete disappearance at the end of D1. She seemed to get in at the beginning, rack up some town-cred, and back out. The fact that Beli mentioned the rule of 3 on Amy's 543 is very interesting, especially reading back over it now. It's also interesting that he mentioned the rule of three, and then rather than voting the one person who is definitely scum in his scenario (Amy), he went for the 50/50 (in his spot) of CKD/Chaos. The fact that he didn't push for Amy in that situation is certainly suspicious.

I'd be interested in hearing her thoughts today.

complete disappearance

- lmao, in the nicest way possible fuck off with the complete disappearance. I didn't get prodded D1, so complete disappearance my ass.

'She seemed to get in at the beginning, rack up some town-cred, and back out.'

- How the fuck did I back out? I contributed the whole way through. If I had a read I posted it. If I didn't then I waited for new posts. I EXPLAINED ALL OF THIS WAY EARLIER.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

In regards to Amy, mostly she tunneled on beli day 1 and 2 and that's about all I can recall from her.

WAHAHA seriously...

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

I'm really pissed, I'll try posting later.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Okay, right, let's try something rational.
First of all, let's take a look at the 'evidence' against me based off Belisarius's posts. Beli clearly knew he was going down at some point soon. That was certain. And he decided to bring people down with him. And I was the person he primarily wanted to do that to. So yes, I'm just pointing out that at some point Beli gave up on being mafia via survival and decided to drag people down with him. That was obvious, so don't play dumb.
Next, let's take a look at CDB's initial case against me.

Amy - started badly with a self-vote and has not been impressive since. All the more concerning that everyone was so keen to say how town she looked - the phrase "universal townread" has been bandied about, dangerously - and so allow her to slip into not actually doing very much for the town. More than one moment where it looks like she already knows people's alignments, next to no contribution when it mattered in the back half of day 1, voting Belisarius Today but barely looking as if she cares about it and happy to let conversation be dominated by a competing Chaos wagon rather than refocus onto the vote that she supposedly regrets not being around to push through Yesterday. To say nothing of the ridiculous hoops she's jumped through today to base her Beli vote on an elaborate triple scumread before we even have any flips. Yes, this is the condensed version of this read. We will be revisiting this in a big way on Day 3

The self vote was RVS and from the context one can see that. I don't like that bit, and I don't see why town would mention that. People's keenness to call me town wasn't something I can really affect, although I'm happy that some people read me correctly. I don't like the term 'universal townread' either, and I'm not claiming to be oh-so-town. I don't personally believe that I 'slipped' into not doing much. I like to get the ball rolling at RVS, and I think that was successful. Although maybe my posting volume at RVS was a mistake, as people made the assumption that that was my normal posting volume. This right now is more like what I'd say is my posting volume. I didn't have much to do at the start of the game, but I'm a student, therefore at some point I got a bigger workload and my activity levels lapsed. I didn't see any moment when '#I already knew people's alignments', although if you want to post some quotes then I'd be happy to respond. I wouldn't say I didn't care about my Belisarius vote. I cared as much as on D1, I reckon. I feel like the addition of 'didn't care' is just something you pulled out of a hat and stuck it on for the sake of it. I wanted to push the vote, but I hope you'll agree that there wasn't much more I could say at that point, and constantly repeating myself would get obnoxious. I was fine with the 'conversation being dominated' by a Chaos wagon. Great. People are talking about ANOTHER ONE OF MY SCUMREADS. I mean, surely I'll want to stop people from that.

And last but not least, I'm happy with my 'elaborate' triple scumread. It works, and I connected the dots that way, and we have one scum down.
You're scum #2, I know that much.
CKD has been slowly reducing in scumminess, although I'm not happy with that. I think I'm less inclined to scumread people who contribute a lot of non-fluff. But I'm still aware of the associative tell (or at least that's kind of how I interpreted it) and with Beli flipping scum, I'm going to point out that that's still out there.

If anyone has any more queries then I'm happy to answer them. Maybe this'll motivate me to be a bit more active and not 'skim through'.

(And I won't self-hammer, I agree with the principle of that being dumb in most circumstances. Rage post = moron post)

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

The above is a wall post, read it anyway.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Replies in bold.

OK, let's get into details about why I think Amy is probably scum. This is the expanded version of my notes from time of replace in; I'll go over Amy's latest contributions next.

--

This post is oddly over-explainy for a non-newbie game, which leads me to suspect that Amy is more interested in presenting a squeaky-clean image than is normal for town.

I like to call that reasoning, but... whatever floats your boat.

Here Amy frames Belisarius's prime purpose as gaining "towncred", which doesn't sit right with me. If Belisarius is town, then his main purpose is to lynch scum, not to gain towncred. If Belisarius's purpose was to gain towncred for himself rather necessarily than get his target lynched, then that would be indicative of scum - but, although Amy is voting for Belisarius already, she's not addressing him like scum here. Town finding further proof of a scumread like this say to everyone else "hey, look, this guy's trying in vain to gain towncred!", not "this isn't the way to gain towncred, man". This reads like an awkward interaction between buddies, where Amy is leaving room for Belisarius to buck up his ideas.

Maybe I'm just tired but I don't get WTF you're on about here, sorry.

This is an example of what I previously referred to as Amy appearing to already know people's alignments. It's an extremely spurious reason to townread somebody and feels much more like Amy trying to ingratiate herself with the town than it does like a really considered read.

Other people townread him for that too, go pick on them. And I read him as town for that due to the reasons I stated there and then. I really can't see how that shows that I 'know other people's alignments'.

I also think it's telling that absolutely nobody engages with this Toby post. It's a post that goes against the grain of most people's last stated Amy reads at the time, but nobody points out how random or strange it is? I think scum would be happier to just leave that alone and hope it goes away rather than either explicitly throw down a read or attempt to somehow act like they know why Toby is saying it.

The way I saw that was a semi-joke and not really something realistic that she intended to actually happen, as seen via the reasoning and such. Try harder.

So Amy comes in at the start of Day 2, all high and mighty about how it's a travesty that Skelda got lynched over Belisarius, it should have gone through, can't believe you didn't listen to me etc etc etc. But where was she to push it through? There were over three days between Amy's last post of Day 1 and the lynch scene. Worse than that, the last time that you could even generously say that Amy actively pushed to promote a Belisarius lynch was this - POST 99. Everybody gets busy sometimes, something which I certainly appreciate given my record, but I'm just not seeing the conviction in getting it done that Amy would have us believe was there all along.

I don't believe I was 'high and mighty' in that post. I provided reasons for not being there, stop picking on me for that, it's pretty unfair, I'd have been there if I could have.

This is the start of an absurd angle of attack that also bothers me about Amy. It is not at all healthy to be so absolute about lining up scumlynches before a single one of those reads has flipped, when god knows what happens in between Days to affect how you go. Scum are more likely to see the longer picture for lynches because they know that they have to get a certain amount of town players lynched before them in order to win.

That was my theory, I went with it, I want to lynch you to follow through but that's not going to happen. I worked it out that way, and I was fine with it.

Here's Amy not saying anything. I don't buy it when Amy says that she's happy for the discussion to be dominated by the Chaos wagon instead, because it's inconsistent with the tone of her post at the start of the Day decrying our failure to get Belisarius the day before and demanding that we put it right that day. It's yet another sign that Amy doesn't believe in the Belisarius lynch anywhere near as much as she would have us believe and is, IMO, a sign that you should be extremely wary when people encourage you to believe that I could be one of Belisarius's buddies.

The tone of my post does not match up to that, that was my honest input at the time.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

All in all, CDB's reasoning is shit, no other way to put it. I feel like he either read many of the posts out of context and tries to make them appear scummy. He criticizes me for a 'complex' scumread and yet the reasoning behing the 'scumminess' of some of my posts needs a lot of imagination to be taken seriously.
You're also using a lot of negative adjectives which make the things I do seem all the worse. It's a mix of an overreaction with overstating some things.

Does nobody else see anything. Somebody just lynch him, he'll flip scum and you'll all be grateful.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

I'm slowly convincing myself to replace out. I stopped having fun when CDB came in, he's a jerk, I'm taking this way too seriously and I have better things to do with my spare time than getting upset with morons on a message board.

On the other hand replacing out can be considered bad in my situation and no doubt someone will yell at me for it. Nevertheless if I get this annoyed/upset again I'm going.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

And last but not least, I'm happy with my 'elaborate' triple scumread. It works, and I connected the dots that way, and we have one scum down.
You're scum #2, I know that much.
CKD has been slowly reducing in scumminess, although I'm not happy with that. I think I'm less inclined to scumread people who contribute a lot of non-fluff. But I'm still aware of the associative tell (or at least that's kind of how I interpreted it) and with Beli flipping scum, I'm going to point out that that's still out there.

(consider this comment a reverse WIFOM post)Okay going to help you out there a little bit. As Scum, I also post a lot of “non-fluff”, if you meta my scum games, you will see that I will go after a scum buddy mightily if I feel like they might be coming off scummy to the town. So I know you are saying I am townish for non-fluff posting, but I am telling you I do that as scum too. Now that I am telling you this, what are your thoughts on me now? Still less inclined to scumread me?

CKD = scum then Beli = scum (defence of Beli, deflected wagon)
Beli = scum then Chaos = scum (protectiveness, made up an imaginary wagon earlier in the game), a little more so than CKD (as mentioned above)
Chaos = scum then Beli = Scum (defence, as mentioned above)

I guess I am confused how I got downgraded in my scumminess between 588 and 948. I mean with Bel flipping scum, given your rationale I should have been MORE scummy right?

I am asking this, because I am trying to understand your reasoning for scumreads (for everyone/or in general/for CD) in this game.

Nonono, I'm not using non-fluff as a towntell. It's just a personal irk, whereby I automatically feel less inclined to lynch someone if they're posting things I deem as logical. But generally I try not to let that affect my reads.
So yes, by standardized reasoning you should be more scummy in my mind. Despite that my townread on you has been growing, although I'm still not dismissing you as town. And I'm much less inclined to lynch you as opposed to CDB.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

edit.."what is exactly bothering you right now? CD's Case against you? Why?"

I don't know...

People aren't listening to me, and I know how dumb that sounds but I'm going with that.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Sorry, the CDB stuff is formulating itself into logical sentences in my head so there may be bitty case posts:

Generally town don't need to add extra negative adjectives to get their point across. And scum have to fabricate reasons for scumreads.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

I'm slowly convincing myself to replace out. I stopped having fun when CDB came in, he's a jerk, I'm taking this way too seriously and I have better things to do with my spare time than getting upset with morons on a message board.

On the other hand replacing out can be considered bad in my situation and no doubt someone will yell at me for it. Nevertheless if I get this annoyed/upset again I'm going.

well this is all types of bullshit. Consider this post "yelling".

you are basically saying "people leave me alone or I am taking my ball and going home". THIS IS THE GAME! I get why you might be upset (that is why I retired years ago). BUT YOU FINISH YOUR COMMITMENT.

I know, I know, that's why I'm staying.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Generally town don't need to add extra negative adjectives to get their point across. And scum have to fabricate reasons for scumreads.

I don't know that I quite agree with this. I often see town using added negative adjectives to get their point across. Especially with a reluctant town, you sometimes need to do this to get people on board a wagon that you know is the right one. In your case, since you were town-read by most people, it may take some negative adjectives to help overcome that initial read people had on you.

Understandable, but surely if CDB's case was solid then those wouldn't have been necessary despite anything else at the time.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Nothing's crossed a line, just roll with it.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

where does Amy indicate she knows alignments? I looked at that post...it isnt anything more than any one else did. Why that whole day was full of people saying such and such looks town.

I'm not really sure how to put it more clearly than I did in the post you quoted. The post that Amy townread did not stick out to me at all when I first read it and I didn't see why anybody would feel happy to draw any kind of alignment-related conclusions from it.

Think about it like this: When I'm scum, I always feel pressure to figure out who I'm going to target for a mislynch. It's hard for me to find town-looking angles of attack on players I know to be town because I always know that their posts are coming from a town mindset. It leaves me likely to townread most of the town apart from one or two mislynch targets and my own buddies. It's that perspective that I see as the most likely explanation for Amy suddenly townreading Snuggly for that post, because Amy doesn't explain why she thinks the post is more likely to come from town so I have no insight into her thought process other than the strange conclusion.

I take it that you disagree with wording/behavioural tells then? I saw (and still see) that (being a bit more open/wild) as town. If you want a comparison, then if snuggly's response to that was something involving an apology or something along those lines then I'd have scumread him.

Also lets say she was all high and mighty??...is that scummy? She was one of the first 2 people on the Bel wagon day 2...She had plenty of time to come off of it.

Being high and mighty about a scumlynch isn't scummy in a vacuum; my argument is that, given how little Amy seemed to actually push a Bel wagon, it felt unearned from her, like someone who would know that they should expect to gain some towncred when Bel eventually dies because they already know that Bel is scum.

Okay, imagine you were in my situation back then. What other reasons would you have provided for a Beli lynch? Or would you go the EpicMafia way and said 'lynch Beli' until people went with it? If you can propose an alternative solution to my situation then I'll take this bit seriously.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

I take it that you disagree with wording/behavioural tells then? I saw (and still see) that (being a bit more open/wild) as town. If you want a comparison, then if snuggly's response to that was something involving an apology or something along those lines then I'd have scumread him.

Just because I don't see anything clear in your one post doesn't mean I "disagree with wording/behavioural tells". Behaviour is, of course, fundamentally what we're all doing here in some way. It's the fact that you didn't go into it at all beyond "I don't think scum would do this"; you didn't actually say what the tell was, just that it was a tell. So I'm still left wondering how you could possibly have reached a conclusion from the post in question.

I did provide reasons, though admittedly kind of naff. But I did not, in any way, make it completely reasonless. 'In this way' was explanatory enough in that post, and other people stated more in depth reasons, ergo making me going in-depth unnecessary. I don't need to write all my mental processes down, and I never have reads entirely based on gut.

Okay, imagine you were in my situation back then. What other reasons would you have provided for a Beli lynch? Or would you go the EpicMafia way and said 'lynch Beli' until people went with it? If you can propose an alternative solution to my situation then I'll take this bit seriously.

There's an in-between. You don't have to provide 'other reasons' just because it's been a while, but you can clearly and concisely restate the case, point out things about alternative cases that you don't like as much and compare to the Beli case to show why it's better, and generally badger a bit. All you had in that post, though, was a convoluted theory about three players being tied together despite none of them having yet flipped scum to give credence to the connections. It's at exactly this point, by the way, that you should have made the explanation that you've since made about you being busy towards the end of Day 1. Town should be very conscious of missing the deadline during a mislynch.

Having doubts at the moment, as I usually do in this situation, but my vote stays. Still think Belisarius points to Amy as a likely buddy and too many inconsistencies here that I can't quite reconcile from the perspective of Amy being town.

Restating the case counts as repetition from my point of view. I could compile all my issues with Beli into one post, but... why? People got the case, and the wagon was simply taking some time to get going. At least that's how I see it.
And there was nothing I disliked about the chaos case. I had a slight preference towards the Beli case, just because I felt he was being more detrimental to the town. But I'd have been pretty much equally happy with either lynch. I'm not going to criticize a wagon that I'm not on and then try and lynch that person the next day.
I liked my convoluted theory. You don't? Okay.
And if I apologised for my absence towards the end of day one then you'd have argued that I was 'overexplaining things' and 'trying my hardest to seem 'overly townish''.

I find your idea of Belisarius' flip pointing to me intriguing but very misguided. For quite a long time Beli was aware of the fact that he definitely wouldn't make it through the next few days. And like most scum at that point, he opted to take someone down with him. People were mostly townreading me at the time, so he went for me. But as you can probably tell, Beli is experienced and knows he can do this. He's not a noob who would deliberately not vote for a scumpartner under any circumstances. Bluntly put: you're using an overly basic noobscum-tell that has no merit here.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Amy: CKD pointed out you made a case on beli and day 2 came in with this beli should have been lynches attitude. It reads scummy because you were not around to push the case and no one knows whether you are busy or purposely lurking. Does that make sense to you?
I'm wondering if you thought chaos and beli are both scum why you never switched to the chaos wagon?

No, the reasoning behind it makes no sense to me. I didn't have a huge attitude about it. I stated my opinion on the lynch, people are making a huge fuss over that..

And I didn't switch to the chaos wagon (though now I see that I ought to have) because I felt Beli was more detrimental to the town. Might have been because chaos was posting less at the time and therefore had less opportunities for me to directly confront him.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Amy did you ever answer these questions and I miss it? If you did just give the post number.

And last but not least, I'm happy with my 'elaborate' triple scumread. It works, and I connected the dots that way, and we have one scum down.
You're scum #2, I know that much.
CKD has been slowly reducing in scumminess, although I'm not happy with that. I think I'm less inclined to scumread people who contribute a lot of non-fluff. But I'm still aware of the associative tell (or at least that's kind of how I interpreted it) and with Beli flipping scum, I'm going to point out that that's still out there.

(consider this comment a reverse WIFOM post)Okay going to help you out there a little bit. As Scum, I also post a lot of “non-fluff”, if you meta my scum games, you will see that I will go after a scum buddy mightily if I feel like they might be coming off scummy to the town. So I know you are saying I am townish for non-fluff posting, but I am telling you I do that as scum too. Now that I am telling you this, what are your thoughts on me now? Still less inclined to scumread me?

CKD = scum then Beli = scum (defence of Beli, deflected wagon)
Beli = scum then Chaos = scum (protectiveness, made up an imaginary wagon earlier in the game), a little more so than CKD (as mentioned above)
Chaos = scum then Beli = Scum (defence, as mentioned above)

I guess I am confused how I got downgraded in my scumminess between 588 and 948. I mean with Bel flipping scum, given your rationale I should have been MORE scummy right?

I am asking this, because I am trying to understand your reasoning for scumreads (for everyone/or in general/for CD) in this game.

Ah, my apologies, I thought I replied to that. Guess I didn't.

a) I'm not directly townreading you for non-fluff. I'm just less inclined to scumread people who post logic. It's not something I want to do, but I subconsciously think townier of said person.

b) According to rationale: yes. Do I see it right now... no, not really.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

I'd like you to find where AFF has said she's not newbie, Scrambles. I can't find it in her ISO.

Of course you haven't, I'm not and I've never said so.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

*i.e. I'm not

not

newbie.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Just sorting that acryon post at the moment but, for the sake of my sanity as I try to figure out this mess,

Amy

, I would appreciate it if you could respond to this:

Kudos to both Beli and one of CDB's posts for instantly making everyone vote for me. I'm not even going to bother right now because clearly I'm getting lynched. Yes I'm giving up, yes it's bad, but I completely lose it when people vote me when I'm town. WIFOM alert, but as scum I tend to actually play to my wincon in these situations and try to get the wagon off me.

Examples, please!

I think people may have stated this before, although not from my point of view. I know someone mentioned that Beli didn't vote for me even though I was the definite scum in his scenario, or something along those lines.

And your initial few posts (I probably had a specific one in mind when writing that but w/e) of Day 3 convinced two other people to vote for me before I'd posted that day.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Sorry, Amy, I think you've misunderstood what I was asking for. You mentioned that you have a history of responding a certain way as scum ("I actually try to play for my wincon in these situations rather than getting mad a town") and I'd like for you to point me to some examples of your history that back up that statement.

I have no history to back that up. I kind of just... said those things as I thought of them, without any backing or anything. Just please disregard all that, it's mostly rageposting.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

V/LA until Saturday k thx

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Query for everyone: If you had to nail the scumteam, right now, which two people would you select?
(I want to get everyone's base scumreads, w/o reasoning)

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Okay, so:
Riddleton: Scrambles/CKD
CDB: Acryon/Scrambles
GC: Scrambles and CDB
CKD: CDB/farside
Farside: Amy/Scrambles
Amy: CDB/[probably]acryon

My second scumread tends to change. And a quick (as in, very quick) skim through scrambles' ISO looked okay to me. Nevertheless, it's not a lynch I'm averse to.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

If I had to narrow 2 two it would be amy/scrabbke based on interaction. Which is almost none.

I wasn't going to basically repeat what other people said about scrambles, and I had nothing extra to add, therefore the lack of interaction is axiomatically inevitable. I read through her ISO, I picked out posts that jump out to me, and I have a leaning-scumread on her.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

I have a leaning scumread on both acryon and scrambles, I had to pick one of them for my two main scumreads, I picked acryon. I see how they're compatible.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Okay - i.e. I didn't see any blatantly scummy shit.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

I have a leaning scumread on both acryon and scrambles, I had to pick one of them for my two main scumreads, I picked acryon. I see how they're compatible.

Maybe there's some miscommunication here. So I'm following up, because I still don't understand -- I'm not trying to pull a "gotcha" or something along those lines.

In 1347, you said you skimmed through scrambles' ISO, and found it to look okay.
In 1348, you said you read through scrambles' ISO, and came away with a leaning-scumread.

How did you come away with two different feelings -- "okay" and "leaning-scumread" -- from the same player's (scrambles') ISO?

Bad wording on my part. I know that probably sounds cheap, but that's all. I guess... okay didn't mean okay-okay in this case. I really don't know how to put it.
Okay meant I skimmed through Scrambles' ISO, read about three posts and went for acryon with no aversion to lynching Scrambles or acryon.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Well we currently have 1 day and 7 hours, but we also still don't have a TobyLoby replacement, so we may have more.

Whoah, this went pretty fast...

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

@Amy:

discrepancies aren't inherently scummy, and I didn't see a clear way how this particular one might be. I just wanted to be clear about your position.

Yeah, understandable. Looking back I see why you picked up on it.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

I dont care if you're ok with my lynch, be ok with explaining how your case made sense tomorrow.

For some reason this post is worded in what I would consider to be a towny way. I see the argument regarding the next day as something worded in a way that town would put it. The tone of it also works with me.

Scrambles' scumminess has mildly alleviated.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

I'm looking at my CDB read. I haven't got much extra for it, but I can't let go of the fact that chaos was scummy and had a pretty solid (IMO) associative tell with Beli. Therefore I don't want to drop that. But if an acryon vote will help then I can do that too.

Vote: Acryon

I don't want to go do a pointless wallpost of my reads on everyone, but if you want a specific person then name someone.

I've become less inclined to lynch Scrambles, as their struggle does seem pretty legitimate. And... ehh, this wagon.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

I've become less inclined to lynch Scrambles, as their struggle does seem pretty legitimate.

And... ehh, this wagon.

Mind clarifying what you mean by this?

Titus/Riddleton/CDB

CDB is probs scum
Titus and Riddleton are by no means super-towny.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

And yeah, I've re-convinced myself...

Vote: CDB

We can lynch acryon tomorrow, since the CDB wagon's got going now.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

It's a lot of small things.

Like, her experience. A couple of RL games and a couple of EpicMafia games, and she claims to have a personal principle that she always self-hammers. And the claim after her outburst that she would be trying harder to get the wagon off her (as scum), rather than give up. In addition, in 1159 she says she's less likely to scumread people who post logic. You don't develop those types of attitudes as quickly as that, and if anything self-hammering is more destructive in RL/EM games because the number of mislynches allocated in both of them is far fewer. 1193 she says she just made up the notion that as scum she'd 'play to her wincon and get the wagon off her' (rather than give up) because she was angry, and I'm just not buying it. Is it alignment indicative? Well, I think it benefits scum to downplay experience more than town. I do think she's more experienced than she's claiming. And it doesn't help me trust her.

Well, then don't buy what I said, because guess what? I really don't care...
And if you see me as experienced then great, I'm please that I come off as experienced, but I'm really not. Go say what you want about my experience, it won't change it.

The emotional outburst was so at odds with the rest of her posting; yes, there's a bit of snark and bite there in her overall body of work, but it's mostly calm and composed. It's unnatural and it felt off. Like, there are people who don't like being pushed as town, but it usually takes more to get that kind of response. The point where she's thinking of replacing out but probably shouldn't as it would potentially be considered 'bad in her situation' doesn't resonate either, it's much more frowned upon to replace out as scum under pressure than town for example and I'm sort of thinking she might have been thinking about that.

You want the three main reasons why that outburst was warranted?:
1. I had little to no real votes on me before, and town were idiots to just follow along that one case.
2. Riddleton said I was town before CDB replaced in and then voted for me, and that was dumb.
3. I'm *that* certain of CDB being scum, and I don't want to be lynched through a wagon led by scum.

And relatedly, I don't feel her scumhunting that much (especially lately). The CDB stuff feels reactionary, for example, and I don't like that she just hopped off that given her sureness that CDB was scum onto acryon 'to help' when she's going from a bigger wagon to a shorter wagon so close to deadline. there isn't much of a traceable thought process on the acryon read at all, especially given she thought he was town early in the game.

You don't need to feel my scumhunting *that much*, I don't expect everyone to.
I thought about the acryon case, and I flipped back to CDB. I read the post where he (I think) mentioned some Acryon thing. Then I realised I was listening to a scumread, so I went back.

The phraseology of a few posts bugs me, too. Like, in 97, the phrase 'won't give you any towncred whatsoever' to Beli and the preceding (slightly hyperbolic) text feels a bit coaching/frustrated. That Beli is being more scummy than perhaps she wants. the ellipses in 728 feel self-conscious as though she's not quite sure if she should be admitting to reading closely or not. Also unlike GC I'm not really a fan of the Scrambles ISO 'okay'/'leaning scum' discrepancy, just because the resulting explanation feels like a bit of a stretch to me.

Wow, I didn't know you understood the wording and punctuation in

my

posts more than I do myself. If it wasn't for the person you replaced, I'd say you're being kinda scummy.
And if my explanation to GC feel like a stretch to you then great, I don't really care.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Reads, albeit quite basic:
acryon - probsscum
scrambles - nullishscum
farside22 - null
curiouskarmadog - maybetown
titus - null
ChannelDelibird - scummyscum
riddleton - leaningprobsscum
GreenCrayons - probstown
Amy Farrah Fowler - townytown
Kalimar - nulltown (because of toby)

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

That's what I meant. The people on it.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

I don't want to defend Scrambles, but since my last scumread on him he's become increasingly townish, and on the whole I disagree with the premise of the lynch.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

okay here, got 20 minutes to read...going to read..

also saw this.

What is the case in cbd, that has nothing to do with chaos?

you following the thread closely or just skimming?

Currently skimming.
Something's I read, long cases I skim, except the case GC put on scramble.

Then you're really in no position to call something a "case" or dismiss other notions.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

My initial inclination is to vote for CDB. But at the moment I see that as cognitive dissonance. After CDB replaced in, chaos' slot wasn't stickingly-out scummy, so in that regard I'm beating a dead horse here. Nevertheless if chaos hadn't gone and bailed out back then, I'm fairly confident that he'd have been lynched at some point. And the moment in the game where he chose to bail wasn't the best, as he was a strong beacon of suspicion and clearly decided to replace out and hope his replacement did better. That's

rather

really annoying.
So in a nutshell I'm not going to drop the CDB case unless he's confirmed town, but at this point I'd like to look around for other scummy individuals as a big chunk of my reasons for voting for CDB has gone pretty stale.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

I am not giving up, though. I am just saying if I get the lynch today, I get why.

This sentence seems to stick out to me. I think it's because of the attitude behind it, what with the almost martyr-like veiled appeal. Maybe that's just me.

All the same I don't see someone like CKD-scum in this game playing that way (i.e. not being on any scum lynches).

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

GC, you get a sheep, congrats.

Vote: farside

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Okay, not exactly a sheep, but I like your reasoning for farside.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Okay, not exactly a sheep, but I like your reasoning for farside.

what in particular did you like about his farside case? Why do you feel like farside is scum?

and...it should be noted, his vote is on me, not farside. Do you agree with his case on me? Why or why not?

Yeah, I realised his vote wasn't on farside back then so I amended that a bit.
Let's see... I liked the arguments provided and can reason through most of them. And they contain an adequate amount of detail. Plus farside hasn't come off as obvtown to me at any point.
I disagree with his case on you. I'm reading you as town. Your posts seem pretty genuine and not being on either of the scum wagons isn't that indicative of being scum.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

I don't like Titus' theory, and quite frankly it's pretty daft but I still think it's coming from town.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Amy I have asked you this twice now, please answer (today).

Okay, not exactly a sheep, but I like your reasoning for farside.

what in

particular

did you like about his farside case? Why do you feel like farside is scum?

and...it should be noted, his vote is on me, not farside. Do you agree with his case on me? Why or why not?

Yeah, I realised his vote wasn't on farside back then so I amended that a bit.
Let's see... I liked the arguments provided and can reason through most of them. And they contain an adequate amount of detail. Plus farside hasn't come off as obvtown to me at any point.
I disagree with his case on you. I'm reading you as town. Your posts seem pretty genuine and not being on either of the scum wagons isn't that indicative of being scum.

but what in PARTICULAR do you like? what point really hit home in his case that made you think..."yeah, farside might be scum"?

Despite this lengthy love affair with suspecting scrambles, farside failed to put a vote down on scrambles until the deadline was hours away.

But here's what really bothers me: in Post 1640, farside justifies her late-wagon vote on scrambles because nobody else would vote acryon, and the deadline was approaching. . . . Really, that's it? Absolutely nothing from the 8 posts where she voiced or agreed with scrambles suspicions contributed to her scrambles vote?

farside, however, did none of this. She was flirting with a scrambles vote, and then killed her scrambles suspicions completely in one fell swoop. It would look contradictory and messy if farside were to suddenly revive those suspicions hours before the deadline – a deadline farside thought meant would spell a no lynch if she didn't join the scrambles wagon. Scum don't want to look contradictory and messy. Hence, farside's avoidance of her previous scrambles suspicions when justifying her late-wagon scrambles vote makes her vote clean and simple -- but also artifically detatched from the actual history of the game. Thus, the basis for farside's vote on scrambles appears to originate from a scum alignment.

farside had adamently refused to vote Beli on D1 and D2 -- even though Beli had pursued farside with an unnatural conviction and self-cetainty, and with a case that farside has herself said was really bad -- and so has been lacking in town cred. One way to up her cred would be to join the wagon on the sinking ship of a scummate. Hence, the late vote on the scrambles wagon.

Just things that sound good, that I recognise as reliable scumtells a lot of the time and that were worded convincingly.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

One of the two people I'm disinclined to lynch right now is CKD. I really think an action like not voting for either of one's partners is worth the wifom, since, as this proves, it usually won't work. I fail to see the scummy correlation. VCA can only say so much about scum in a game. While in Titus' case this appears to work well, or so I've heard, one can typically extract more information through interaction and human analysis. And through a glance through the more recent portion of CKD's iso, I'm liking his play. He asks questions and if he doesn't receive an answer then he will ask again. Maybe it's just me, but town would be more inclined to push a point as opposed to leaving it and not drawing any extra attention to an issue perceived to be dead.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

You're scum. If you flip town then my secondary choice would be CDB. This is somewhat prone to change.
You're scum because you voted scrambles 'so a lynch happens' as opposed to following your previous reasoning. Also, dismissing something as a ''case'' without having read through is a pretty naff move. Belisarius' unexplained yet 'serious' vote for you is an example of awkward scum-to-scum interaction. You also called something of CDB's 'scummy shit' and then openly sheeped is case on me the next day. Want more?