Open 566: Murder on the Oriental Express (Game Over)

[Mr_Blonde]

Unvote

and

Vote Mr Blonde

Something makes me think he is mafia.

Would you like to inform us of what that something is?
Or if it's gut feeling then are there any specific posts that provoked it?

Some examples of why he is town reading you would be sweet too.

[Astinus]

Okay, so maybe my reason was not good. I just wanted to vote myself for fun, I guess. Since we don't have any leads so far, I didn't see any harm in voting for myself.

Hopefully as I gain more experience in mafia I won't be making such random lynch decisions. LOL. This is only my second game here; my first is Newbie 1525, which I'm still in.

[SnugglyDuckling]

Oh, sorry, didn't see this post somehow.

What is the point of voting for oneself? Avoiding voting someone else?

Vote: Astinus

UNVOTE:
VOTE: SnuggkyDuckling

There were three people who self-voted up to this point. Why point out Astinus?

Probably just because he was the most recent.

There were three people who self-voted up to this point. Why point out Astinus?

+ What is your prior experience with mafia?

I've played in real life but this is totally different already. We don't discuss forever and get a general consensus, everybody just does their own thing. I suppose it would be pretty impossible to play this way in real life unless the story teller/moderator had slow motion hacks enabled.

Unvote

and

Vote Mr Blonde

Something makes me think he is mafia.

Why did you change your vote so quickly without waiting for a reply?

Stronger suspicion.

Unvote

and

Vote Mr Blonde

Something makes me think he is mafia.

Amy seems town to me and Mr Blonde's "shall we dance" comment seems like false bravado.

These come across as mightily subjective for someone who apparently has never played before, iirc. I'm not sure how you're getting 'false bravo' from a playful statement that was followed with a smiley.

The response was my casual way of referencing to her vote on me that I couldn't see any discernable reason for.

Are you saying my lack of experience in this format makes my opinion any less valid?

Also happy birthday!




And for the record, I can now totally see how self voting starts discussion now.

[Mr_Blonde]

Are you saying my lack of experience in this format makes my opinion any less valid?

No. Your ambiguous language was what made me question your opinion.

'Something' makes you think I'm mafia. Amy 'seems' town. Those sort of statements. Generally players that hand out reads for seemingly arbitrary reasons get the stink eye from me.

Also happy birthday!

Thanks!

[farside22]

@mr. Blond: the difference between me and my spot and you and your spot is yours requested replaced. The mod said the person I replaced did not pick up the pm.

That makes literally no difference. It could be something as simple as my previous slot holder actually had the courtesy to respond to the MOD to seek replacement versus the others. How would you know differently?

You are using intangible evidence and supposed experience as a way to push me for a generic tell that essentially I can't defend against. That's bad on your part.

One) as I stated previously I checked to see the player who replaced out was posting elsewhere. (2)It's early. I don't expect people to agree.
(3) mod said pm's not picked up. Did you check to see if players were still around?
I know for example ki hasn't been online since Friday.

Hold on a sec

1) What does that have anything to do with me and THIS game thread?

2) I'm not sure how the stage of the game is relevant here. You have already passed judgement on my slot based on a generic tell without allowing time to actually analyze me first. That makes you either a) derptown or b) scum.

3) No - why would I? It has nothing to do with what's ITT.

Sorry knew about ki do to ongoing game but this is the post records of whom I replaced

http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... 6&sr=posts

The 19th was there last post so the mod statement has more value and I know my role is town too.

You lost me on this one. Mod statement has more value than what?

1) then you are not reading my post.
2) reaction and something I've seen scum do is not generic or derp
3) again you didn't read my post.

Hey you asked about my comment and stated the possible of not picking up the pm and i showed how that was invalid.

[TobyLoby]

I don't consider "did you read the game" to be the start of serious questioning when the question I asked immediately prior is dependent on me reading the game.

These come across as mightily subjective for someone who apparently has never played before, iirc

What are you getting at here?

[farside22]

I don't consider "did you read the game" to be the start of serious questioning when the question I asked immediately prior is dependent on me reading the game.
?

I asked more then that question.

Did you read the game? What was your view of astinus self vote after asking if it was okay? Does it really help or do anything to switch rvs to oneself?

Your question looks pointless when I'm reading the thread and see a reason other then calling out a player because of a self vote.

[cerberus48]

Vote: TobyLoby

You look vaguely familiar.

[Mr_Blonde]

1) What does that have anything to do with me and THIS game thread?

2) I'm not sure how the stage of the game is relevant here. You have already passed judgement on my slot based on a generic tell without allowing time to actually analyze me first. That makes you either a) derptown or b) scum.

3) No - why would I? It has nothing to do with what's ITT.

Sorry knew about ki do to ongoing game but this is the post records of whom I replaced

http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... 6&sr=posts

The 19th was there last post so the mod statement has more value and I know my role is town too.

You lost me on this one. Mod statement has more value than what?

1) then you are not reading my post.
2) reaction and something I've seen scum do is not generic or derp
3) again you didn't read my post.

Hey you asked about my comment and stated the possible of not picking up the pm and i showed how that was invalid.

Did I misunderstand you perhaps? If so - correct my misunderstanding and better explain yourself because atm my grasp is that you are claiming my slot to be likely scum for very bad reasons. Ones that can't be backed through evidence in thread or that were even done by me.

Again - what does my prior slot holder's action PRE GAME have anything to do with me here and now? If you think that by them replacing out is some sort of tell, then fine, but how do you reconcile that idea now that I am present and actively posting/engaging you?

Can you reconcile it?

These come across as mightily subjective for someone who apparently has never played before, iirc

What are you getting at here?

That I wouldn't expect commentary like that from a player who was supposedly new to Mafia.

Which led me to question if he was being completely forthcoming with his experience. Which led me to question why he'd feel the need to be dishonest about his experience level, etc. He's cleared it up since saying that he has experience playing IRL but is new to forum Mafia - which I think shows a bit with how he's posted earlier. With this information in mind, he strikes me as someone who is not overly conscious of their posting style, or what they're saying, as much as a salty MSer would be for instance.

[acryon]

Did I misunderstand you perhaps? If so - correct my misunderstanding and better explain yourself because atm my grasp is that you are claiming my slot to be likely scum for very bad reasons. Ones that can't be backed through evidence in thread or that were even done by me.

Again - what does my prior slot holder's action PRE GAME have anything to do with me here and now? If you think that by them replacing out is some sort of tell, then fine, but how do you reconcile that idea now that I am present and actively posting/engaging you?

Can you reconcile it?

Doubt it. I generally strongly dislike meta plays, and this is the worst kind of meta IMO. There are way too many assumptions for it to be at all valuable.

[FakedBlogger]

VOTE: TobyLoby

[Belisarius]

VOTE: farside22

That is not a random vote.

Replace outs are null. This is not debatable, and shouldn't have to be said.

Seriously, is there anything else blatantly obvious that needs to be pointed out? How about "The gravitational attraction between two objects is proportional to the sum of their masses and inversely proportional to the distance between them?"

There also seems to be a general flaking trend going on at the moment.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

VOTE: TobyLoby

Why?

[chaoslord54]

Vote:farside22

Your way of claiming is scummy, rather or not someone replaced out is not a read on their role and to argue as such is ridiculous. Also, your case against Mr.Blonde has no real evidence against it and I do not understand why a wagon is building on him so early because of a post where he said "let's dance."

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Chaos, you hopped onto the farside bandwagon rather quickly. Do you have any other reads on anyone else?
And allow me to interject your statement about a wagon on Mr Blonde building quickly. Because I see no 'wagon' on him, only one or two votes tops.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Astinus, Skelda, Cerberus, Acryon. As people who haven't voted in a non-RVS way or voted at all yet, how do you see the present situation?

[acryon]

Astinus, Skelda, Cerberus, Acryon. As people who haven't voted in a non-RVS way or voted at all yet, how do you see the present situation?

I'll just quote myself from another game for the short answer for why I haven't voted:
"If you look at my filter, you'll see that I tend to not vote in RVS. I think that a handful of RVS votes is good to start things up, but I also think that too many can reduce the impact and responses we could get from just a handful. Scum can hide well when it's too noisy, so I prefer to not add to the noise."

Initial comments and overview of what has happened so far.
-Didn't like the Astinus vote switch. Took vote off of someone that could have had a reaction to himself. That being said, he said he is new to online mafia, so that may explain his confusion in RVS.
-Didn't like Farside's vote and reasoning on the replace-out. As I said, I hate the kind of meta that surrounds that play. But I will note that just because a play is a type that I hate, it doesn't necessarily mean it's scummy.
-Mr_Blonde is pretty on-point with a lot of what he is saying, especially in regards to the Farside vote and explanation.
-Same as you, I didn't understand Chaos discussing the non-existent Mr_Blonde wagon. That part definitely read scummy to me. Scum like their strawmen.
-I don't like NakedJogger's lack of content. Two votes and nothing else. Inactivity in this way always strikes me as suspicious.
-TobyLoby has asked some interesting questions, which is good. I don't want to devalue the worth of good questioning, but I'd like to hear some actual content of her own.
-SnugglyDuckling's comments are mostly null, but I didn't love his question of "Are you saying my lack of experience in this format makes my opinion any less valid?". I think it definitely makes it a little less valid. I'm also quite new to the online format, and it plays a lot differently. Reads function very differently online. It's easy to play on a read that makes sense IRL, but online it doesn't. I think taking mostly-IRL players' opinions with a grain of salt makes sense.

Tha's all for now.

[Skelda]

Astinus, Skelda, Cerberus, Acryon. As people who haven't voted in a non-RVS way or voted at all yet, how do you see the present situation?

Well, I think farside's opinion on replacements is very wrong and I'm not even following how someone responding or not responding to the mod makes a lick of different. But I still think he is Town because he really seems to genuinely believe it. And I'm giving scumpoints to Beli and Chaos since farside would be such an easy wagon to join for scum. Is it an absolutely rubbish case? Yes. Is it scummy? I don't think so. And I don't want to give Blond too much credit for that, it isn't exactly hard to defend yourself against a case that you have no way of defending yourself against.

[farside22]

I have no clue where meta came into this conversation. Nor where I even expect mr. Blond to defend my comment.
This is pretty simple people. 2 games I was in a player asked for replacement and both times those players were scum.
For me this better then average experience. Does this mea 100% lmets lynch mr. Blond. No
Did I tell people this is something that needs to happen. No
I stated a fact I have experienced.

[FakedBlogger]

What is the point of voting for oneself? Avoiding voting someone else?

Vote: Astinus

UNVOTE:
VOTE: SnuggkyDuckling

There were three people who self-voted up to this point. Why point out Astinus?

I don't sympathize with the point of this. Probably because there is no point and she's still voting him.

[Belisarius]

I have no clue where meta came into this conversation. Nor where I even expect mr. Blond to defend my comment.
This is pretty simple people. 2 games I was in a player asked for replacement and both times those players were scum.
For me this better then average experience. Does this mea 100% lmets lynch mr. Blond. No
Did I tell people this is something that needs to happen. No
I stated a fact I have experienced.

Oh, well 2 is certainly a scientifically rigorous sample size. Can't argue with science!

I'd still rather lynch you because the faeries told me to.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Beli, please tone down the sarcasm just a tad as it's not necessary and does nothing to aid the conversation.

I do agree, however, that two games' worth of evidence should not be enough to warrant a lynch on someone. But I can see that the intention behind providing the examples wasn't bad. Still, no cause for lynching either the accused or accuser just for that.

People voting for farside: What are the 'bad case' vs the 'scummy' aspects of farside's play thus far?

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Also, I feel like I can

Unvote

Astinus. There's no need to overemphasize an RVS error. Perhaps I'm being a little more lenient due to his newness. While this is admittedly bad, I see something like that as a legitimate newbie mistake, and definitely not a serious error by any means.

However I'd like to pay attention to Belisarius's actions so far.
I noticed he uses a fair bit of sarcasm when criticizing a case that he disagrees with. While not a scumtell on its own, the fact that he uses it to discredit others' arguments makes it scummy. Don't interpret this as 'sarcasm is scummy', because that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that (mainly) your most recent post gives off a vibe I don't like, and could certainly have sounded more townish.
As Skelda mentioned, farside is certainly a rather easy wagon right now, and while that doesn't mean everyone on it is automatically scum, it can certainly be indicative of it.

Ergo:

Vote: Belisarius

[RoyalApe]

VOTE: Mr Blonde, sorry I missed your birthday. Have a belated b-day vote.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

If I were to pick out my two strongest townreads at this point (yes, it is exceptionally early in the game, but just from the little data we have so far), they would be acryon and Skelda. Both have posted fairly thorough posts which have a good amount of analysis and opinion in there, both of which have contained some original (i.e. not re-worded off someone else) analysis.