Open 583: JK9++ (Game Over!)

[davesaz]

Ready

[davesaz]

tth's internet crush is scum, btw

How do you know, unless you're scum too?

[davesaz]

While I think the star wars quote was appropriate (and good timing too considering vetrock's avatar), I think it's also an unconscious response to getting a red PM.

VOTE: Heartless

[davesaz]

If you want to look at two players together, a similar function can be found at the bottom of the page. Use the "display posts by user" pulldown to select player 1, then hit the [+] and you'll get another pulldown to select player 2.

[davesaz]

davesaz, what do you think of mastin's vote for you?

She said she was serious, but about what I can't guess.

[davesaz]

Did you not notice that?

It's utter nonsense. Devoid of meaningful content. Or not serious. I'm not sure which yet.

[davesaz]

I'm liking my vote more now.

This terminology sounds familiar, but can't put my finger on who says it a lot.
It gives off a faint odor of scum.

[davesaz]

@eyestott: What prompted you to post your history info?

[davesaz]

VOTE: eyestott would be my vote at this point.

I often respond to a non-RVS "naked vote", i.e. a vote with little/no surrounding explanation, by immediately calling it out as naked and voting for that player.
I'll give you a pass this time because you got some reasons posted before I had a chance to act.
I mention it here because there are several players in the game who have seen me do it and may question why I didn't do it this time.

Question re: buddying. Do you view different types of helpful posts differently?

[davesaz]

Mostly skimming right now.

There are a couple of reads that I want to get to, but I'm not sure how to go about it. Basically, I want to hold back on giving the info, yet not actually forget what the reads are, but don't want to run afoul of mod rules or what I say being transparently obvious, to let the read develop for a little while longer. I'm coming up on a bit of a blank. Let's just say I basically have thoughts on almost every player in the game right now, albeit mostly weak. I'm really struggling to think what to do about most of it, but I will reiterate this:

Dave is scum. You can trust me on that.

I wouldn't trust anyone who claims to have a read on so little information.

[davesaz]

I would agree with this. Those overly concerned with maintaining a town look, and their own meta is moderately scummy.

I have observed that being concerned with looking town isn't very alignment indicative, but reading that concern as scummy is somewhat indicative of scum (i.e. scum use it for a "case" more often than town do).

[davesaz]

Ready

Yo.

Didn't bother to look at how many scum there are in the game (presumably, three), but copper and BlueBloodedToffee are either both town or both scum. (Lean the former.)

Aninenim is town.

One of Wicked/dave is scum, but not both. I lean dave.

Oh.
And I am totally /ready.

QFT. No information.

@mastin: If you're using the observation that I've flipped town in every game to predict I'm scum here, remember that dice have no memory. BTW is there a record for longest streak rolling town on this site?

[davesaz]

Mostly skimming right now.

Dave is scum. You can trust me on that.

i dont trust you on that at all. why do you think he is scum?
Dave is a player i would consider voting right now but i want to know what your case against him is.

dodgy, mastin is just as (If not more) experienced at mafia as the likes of sjg and Crunkus. She cant fully explain, because it would be against the rules (I think because of the "no talking about ongoing games" rule).

being experienced doesnt mean i should blindly trust him. so far i dont have any idea why she thinks dave is scum.. let alone a full explanation

TBH, my bet is "reaction test". So I'm not all that concerned about it really.

[davesaz]

Hmm, wonder whose alt slip that is.

[davesaz]

@Dave
If you're not worried about Mastin's vote why do you keep mentioning it and have already decided it was based on nothing/it's a reaction test?

Your post implies that having a conversation about something means I'm worried about it. Why do you want to make that assumption?

[davesaz]

TBH, my bet is "reaction test". So I'm not all that concerned about it really.

Remember how I said I was 90% serious?

The other 10% was the reaction test. (Okay, so to be fair, it's probably better to say I was 60% serious and 40% reaction-testing, and exaggerating the number for the sake of furthering the reaction test, butstill, you get the idea.)

But I was serious then, and am even MORE serious now. My other reads are fluid. As in, they're massively flowing in my mind and I haven't nailed them down quite yet. (I'll try at some time in the immediate future.) But dave? Dave IS scum. I'm not sure if I'm going to really be able to explain it. Like, I can explain the basic not-very-well-based reasoning for the original read easily enough; it was just so plain compared to the other more interesting confirms that I figured "probably just scum who got it out of the way". The weakest of weak possible reasons, thus one reason why I hold onto said reasoning and not explain it immediately. (Because if people knew how weak it was, I'd lose the reactions.)

SINCE then, though, there's plenty more that's much stronger. Like, all of it, really. As in, basically everything dave says, I think, "yep, scum". I'm not sure I can really find the words for it. They're not coherent. But dave has done nothing but scumposting. While, yes, I was originally reaction-testing him, and while, yes, my original reasoning was weak, since then, the read has grown stronger off of much stronger reasoning. I'm just trying to figure out how to make that come across as more than just gibberish right now.

But he's scum. You can trust me on that.

No, I haven't tossed a single newbscumtell. I'm a brutally honest VT, and you're an idiot.

[davesaz]

can someone tell me how experienced dave is?

Looks like he has seven or eight completed games and five or six ongoing games. Over 1000 game posts, so he's pretty experienced. If you want to check for yourself (or check for another player), click on the player's username and then click on "view their topics". That'll give you all the topics on Mafiascum that they have posted in, ever.

Even better yet, follow the links in my sig. And I'm on the wiki too.
I'm guessing around 50 completed games on the other sites, which is pretty hefty considering we were lucky to average two a month in that environment.

[davesaz]

No, I haven't tossed a single newbscumtell. I'm a brutally honest VT, and you're an idiot.

Before you go insulting others, you should learn the basic unspoken rules w.r.t. claiming. How can you call someone an idiot in the same sentence that

you

give a horribly-timed claim? I don't think you were even at L-2...

I don't get to let the angry out often enough, so once in a while I like to blow off steam.

[davesaz]

Honestly, I don't like BBT so far. He was active pregame, but his posting dropped off the face of the earth the instant the game started. His actual posts have been pretty meaningless too. It looks to me like he's trying to coast by without saying much, which he's able to do so far since people are mostly ignoring him.

Have you played with scum BBT before? Any thoughts on what this pattern of play might mean in light of his signature?

[davesaz]

I would agree with this. Those overly concerned with maintaining a town look, and their own meta is moderately scummy.

I have observed that being concerned with looking town isn't very alignment indicative, but reading that concern as scummy is somewhat indicative of scum (i.e. scum use it for a "case" more often than town do).

perhaps you may be right. all that means is that townies need to stop being concerned with their appearance. but i still dont really buy this.

From this reply I'm not sure you understood what I meant.

Being lynched is bad for both scum and town. A desire to look town, and concern over being seen as scummy, is common to both alignments. It is human nature to want to survive, even in a game such as this one. As town, I don't use "being concerned over appearance" as a scumtell. It is a horrible predictor for alignment. There are other things to look for which are much more effective.

[davesaz]

Mastin -- null, need input.

Aneninen -- null, insufficient content

Dodgy -- null->town, curiosity seems genuine, trying to determine alignment in 167

Wickedestjr -- lean town gut

copper's 158 is mixed. The vote is sheep, I like the logic on killapenwin, agree that Vettrock needs to be watched, but don't get calling beast town with so little content. Seems a bit thrown together.

[davesaz]

no i understood perfectly what you meant. im saying townies shouldnt be worried about it. if they do the right thing and are open/honest and try to engage sincerely then they dont need to try and look town. Scum however dont have the option of engaging sincerely and as they are the ones trying to blend in, they have an interest in appearing town.

TL;DR townies should stop worrying about their image and worry about scum hunting.

And if the path to being open / honest

is

to be conscious of image?

[davesaz]

If you really thought this was a reaction test, why would you point that out? I think a reaction test is ruined if the test subjects know it's a reaction test.

Take that logic a little further. The target knows it's a reaction test. That means that their reactions can be ______________________ (fill in the blank)

Now pick you jaw up off the floor and reread please.

[davesaz]

TBH I never have reads on every player to begin with. A lot of the unmentioned have posted nothing beyond RVS.

[davesaz]

eyestott's thing with killapenwin looked a bit questionable to me. It's the type of thing scum can float to see what happens, and either push if it's safe or back off as an early misunderstanding if it turns dangerous. I wasn't sure how the whole thing would lead to a read on killa's alignment.

Not sure how to read his approach to myself and Mastin.

[davesaz]

no i understood perfectly what you meant. im saying townies shouldnt be worried about it. if they do the right thing and are open/honest and try to engage sincerely then they dont need to try and look town. Scum however dont have the option of engaging sincerely and as they are the ones trying to blend in, they have an interest in appearing town.

TL;DR townies should stop worrying about their image and worry about scum hunting.

And if the path to being open / honest

is

to be conscious of image?

why would that be the path? the idea of looking at your own image is essentially a filter to prevent yourself from looking bad/to make yourself look better. It comes across as forced.

But my point is, what if the individual's natural way of thinking is to be conscious of image at all times. It may

look

forced, yet be completely natural.

[davesaz]

There's nothing to go by in your reads list. All of your reads are null, mixed and you seem unsure of yourself. It seems like it's all rushed and poorly made. Odd, seeing that you were one of the more active players in the forum at the moment. What were you doing all this time? Surely you must have a more solid read by now?

That one's relatively easy to answer. I don't make shit up to see if it sticks. Four players (BBT, Heartless, Aneninen, beastcharizard) have said nothing substantial at all. Five players are voting wrongly, but being wrong isn't alignment indicative by itself. Sheeping isn't a reliable indicator either. It's plausible that Mastin really believes her push, and again being wrong isn't really alignment indicative.

I don't know who the scum are, and I don't have any really strong suspicions. This early in day 1, weak reads are all you're going to get from me.

I've said this before. It may be in a completed game, but I'm not sure. This site has a hard time dealing with an honest player. You expect people to toss blind accusations, ignore their feelings and act like they don't care about being voted, attack someone for a mistaken word or two. That's not how I play.

You're welcome to lynch me if you think it's the right thing. I know it would be a mistake for town.

[davesaz]

Why are you claiming already? What pro-town reason would you have for revealing you're a VT?

Partially answered in 172. I don't really have a reason, other than being quite angry at the time.
I have self censored a couple of posts since then.
I strongly considered self voting.

[davesaz]

Why are you claiming already? What pro-town reason would you have for revealing you're a VT?

Partially answered in 172. I don't really have a reason, other than being quite angry at the time.
I have self censored a couple of posts since then.
I strongly considered self voting.

Also, you cant just pass off a reveal as anger, and expect it to be fine.

It is the truth. I don't expect it to be "fine".

[davesaz]

I was kinda hoping that BBT would have done something. He's presumably 7 hours ahead of me and it's mid day there now.

[davesaz]

Also, super-close-to-chest right now, but I

may

have a second scumread.

@thread: Is it ok for one player to get pounded for not having strong reads, but another to be proud of

maybe

having a 2nd scum read?
I don't think so.
Where are the questions?
And I really don't care about reputation.

[davesaz]

@vettrock:

You've commented on the "looking town" conversation, but I don't see any comment on the wagon. Why so quiet?

[davesaz]

We'll both be LA for the next week due to travelling.

who is we in this context?

Heartless is a hydra of AntiHero and TellTaleHeart, so I assume she meant the two of them.

[davesaz]

You may find it helpful to ask questions, like why people are on it or off it.

[davesaz]

@dav
The point of my case against you dav is that you have been floating around the forum posting nearly daily and yet your strongest read is simply a 'mixed' read. While I'm not asking for a super strong 'that man is scum' read, I find it suspicious that you don't even have a weak scum read. It is as if you weren't really looking for scum until that point. That in my opinion is pretty dang scummy.

Did you actually read 198? And fully understand it?

[davesaz]

Wow Jackal, hope you're feeling ok.

[davesaz]

@vettrock:

You've commented on the "looking town" conversation, but I don't see any comment on the wagon. Why so quiet?

Mostly because I'm undecided about the wagon. I need to do some more review/reads. I generally have a hard time with D1 as there isn't as much real information to base anything off of.

Given this position, what do you make of Tean Samargo's accusation that I don't have reads?

[davesaz]

I like the last two posts by Vettrock btw so Dave latching onto that particular read is not endearing him to me.

Which read are you saying I'm latching onto?

[davesaz]

UNVOTE:
This kind of dumb play and "rage" combined with an early claim is very often town. The dog piling on the slot was also too quick for my liking.

@Vettrock
He may do it (early claim), as an experienced scum player, as a fake dumbtell that he is a frustrated vanilla townie that has lost motivation and doesn't care about the game anymore.

Hmm, you've floated both town and scum motivations for the same action. Trying to see which one gets more support, so you can blend in with town a little better?

[davesaz]

UNVOTE:
This kind of dumb play and "rage" combined with an early claim is very often town. The dog piling on the slot was also too quick for my liking.

@Vettrock
He may do it (early claim), as an experienced scum player, as a fake dumbtell that he is a frustrated vanilla townie that has lost motivation and doesn't care about the game anymore.

Hmm, you've floated both town and scum motivations for the same action. Trying to see which one gets more support, so you can blend in with town a little better?

Misrep.

I

presented the 256 theory.

I don't see how that's relevant. Whether copper is the 1st or 2nd, he's still arguing both sides to see which sticks.

[davesaz]

@Dave
The read on Vettrock.

Townies claiming VT prematurely has happened to me in Rome twice now, what Wicked said about it being more of a newbie thing and about not buying your frustration in particular reads true, especially for a guy being a civ nerd hence a strategical thinker I can see trying to fake it as a ploy being a possiblity.

False dichotomy. I don't agree with the theory that it's worse to claim than it is to be mislynched. There are some situations where a claim as town is better strategically.

[davesaz]

I am posting the truth and nothing but the truth.

[davesaz]

Like I said, people here have trouble with honesty.

[davesaz]

As for the accusations I'm posting, they are my opinion and therefore can be incorrect but can't be untrue.

[davesaz]

@Dav
There's only 4 people in your reads list, where's the rest? It sort of feels like a filler from where I'm sitting.

I commented later on the disparity between this post criticizing my reads list and the lack of comments about other players who have even fewer reads. My comment quoted Mastin's "second scumread" post, and there were a couple of follow up questions about that, but still nothing about the general lack of reads from several others.

Why are so many people getting a free pass on not providing reads?

Mastin -- null, need input.

Aneninen -- null, insufficient content

Dodgy -- null->town, curiosity seems genuine, trying to determine alignment in 167

Wickedestjr -- lean town gut

copper's 158 is mixed. The vote is sheep, I like the logic on killapenwin, agree that Vettrock needs to be watched, but don't get calling beast town with so little content. Seems a bit thrown together.

Note: the following was a response directly to Tean's post quoted above

TBH I never have reads on every player to begin with. A lot of the unmentioned have posted nothing beyond RVS.

Maybe I’m missing something, but what prompted you to post ‘reads’ on those five players specifically if you only actually have reads on two of them? Filler?

So Wicked quotes my reads list, skips Tean Samargo's comment about it, quotes my response to TS which explains why the list is a short one, and then calls the reads list filler.

Anyone think this is strange?

[davesaz]

Phone post

You've misinterpreted my question. I wasn't questioning you for the shortness of the reads list (OBVIOUSLY there are players who have provided even less than you have). I am fine with that. I was questioning your inclusion of the null reads in your reads post. Why did you specifically include mastin and Anen in your reads list (as opposed to... say... eye and beast) when you literally had nothing interesting to say about them? E.g. Did I miss a post where someone asked you for your reads on those players? If you weren't going to post a reads list for all the players then why did you specifically include just those few null reads (because I assume you also null read all the players not mentioned). I was wondering if the unhelpful null reads we're added simply for filler. Does that make sense?

Well, the point of my bringing up that post was that you asked if it was "filler" and quoted the post right after TS also mentioned "filler", but without noting that.

I make a distinction between someone I've tried to read and came up null, vs one I haven't even attempted. The players not listed in that post were ones who don't even warrant a "null" mention because I literally had no opinion whatsoever on them.

[davesaz]

@Dave
Why did you attempt to read only the players on your wagon?

Who happen to be the only active players. I can't read inactive ones.

[davesaz]

Am I the only one that thinks beast might be scum?

Yes. How am I scummy again?

Let's start with being around often enough to post when you're mentioned, but failing to put effort into scum hunting.

VOTE: beastcharizard

[davesaz]

Now I can see a world where town_Dave tries to read Aneninen because they previously had a game together and comes up with a blank, so idk, it's not such a strong scumtell anymore and I continue disliking everyone finding an angle to jump on the wagon (BBT being the latest addition).

Bingo.

Hi Dave, I notice you're online.

Do you not have anything to respond to or are you purposely choosing to ignore it?

@dodgy - tean is town, I feel pretty sure on that. I voted for you because...well...you'll see when I catch up to that part.

I was asleep in my chair. Haven't tried posting while half awake before, don't think it would be terribly productive.

I find it odd that you're focusing so much on me. Perhaps understandable as the early wagon, but there are a few other things going on. Not as much as I would hope for, unfortunately.

[davesaz]

@dav
The point of my case against you dav is that you have been floating around the forum posting nearly daily and yet your strongest read is simply a 'mixed' read. While I'm not asking for a super strong 'that man is scum' read, I find it suspicious that you don't even have a weak scum read. It is as if you weren't really looking for scum until that point. That in my opinion is pretty dang scummy.

This is partly accurate and partly completely wrong. Your observation on activity is quite accurate. I have been active, in this thread or elsewhere, pretty much constantly when I have free time. There were a couple of times I would have wanted to post more in-depth (Thursday morning and Saturday morning) but could not because of RL obligations.

The completely wrong part is the interpretation of why my reads are useless, and even more so the analysis of what that means for alignment. If I were scum, I could toss out accusations willy nilly and pick one that sticks. It would even be beneficial for my team to toss weak scum reads in the direction of my teammates, and buddy the heck out of a couple of town to cast suspicion on them. I'm not taking the easy route -- that should tell you something.

[davesaz]

Busier than usual, hope to post later today.

[davesaz]

Still seriously busy.

At least some of you have realized that if I were scum it's likely my buddies would at least be trying to build a counter wagon. Lack of a strong push in that direction points to me as town, though I'll agree with others who already said it's far from strong evidence. (Yes I could go back and quote. Maybe I will next time the available time is better)

[davesaz]

VOTE: eyestott

TBH I'm still pressed for time and have not had a chance to independently build a case, but I agree with what I'm seeing against him to be willing to vote it.
So a little more than just sheeping, but not much more.

[davesaz]

Clarification: I never said anything about self-hammering. I made a comment about self-voting, and I was talking in

past tense

(

had

been thinking about) referring to a time that the count was just 2-3 votes.

I don't see mastin as likely scum, despite her totally misreading me.

Out of time (meeting starting soon) but I wanted to get this posted to address the recent discussion.

[davesaz]

Ok I have caught up to, @wicked no you are not insane, I do not know why BBT is trying so hard to defend Tean and buddying up to him.

@Aneninen sorry I am not 100% sure how to link multiple posts I think it has to do with the "Q+ button but I think that only allows you to do posts from a single page, whereas my comments covered Tean's posts over the whole thread. If you have Tean's ISO in 1 tab and my post in another it is not to difficult to cross-reference.

I am kind of feeling this Eyestott wagon and mostly because I don't like his indecisive style of play, it seems too noncommittal. It is almost as if he is justifying an excuse at the point of voting so that he can defend himself when things don't look too good for him if he makes a mistake for example. If you are making a point against someone you should be trying to convince others they are scum typically in a format like this:

Person .... is scum because ......(read/reason).. and ideally ->see this post ..(evidence/post)...

or at least in some format similar to that. When I read Eyestott's posts he just seems to be indifferent. I find a person who does that to be difficult to read, a player is either scum or not you may have conflicting points but at some point you are going to have to decide.

I played my last game against scumEyestott and he did the same that game, which is partly why I think the wagon on him is a better choice than the others proposed so far. I'll hold off voting for him right now as I would like to hear more from a few players mastin/vettrock/heartless first.

Meeting turned out to be a quick one, so I get to post more.

This post looks so town up till the last sentence. If you're confident in the read, why wait for other players? The wagon was only L-3 or so at this point, if I counted right.

[davesaz]

In short, the jump from the dave wagon to the eyestott wagon makes no sense from the perspective of town with as strong of a scumread as mastin apparently had and it doesn't follow from anything mastin's said or fit in with mastin's other reads.

If anyone has an alternative hypothesis for the reasoning behind the vote change, please let me hear it. Copper, I'm especially talking to you.

I'd like to ask a separate question which might also be useful in working out mastin. Does anyone have experience with her having the type of (apparently) emotional reaction to Anti's sudden push on her? I'm predisposed to read that type of reaction as somewhat town unless there is meta indicating it's out of character for a player, and I don't have direct meta to work with. The emotional->town doesn't mesh at all with TTH's analysis of mastin's actions vs. stated reads and the logic speaks louder.

I said just a few posts ago that I didn't see mastin as scum, EBWO(VD)P certainly didn't see her as especially town either.

(VD) = very delayed.

[davesaz]

Besides, if he's scum, he's not likely to start being townread by the majority.

This is quite subtle, but it's also clearly misinformation.
Scum are often townread by the majority. If they weren't, then they'd never win!
Not to mention the surrounding material is so full of WIFOM that the supply of glasses is running low.

[davesaz]

I'm not inclined to think temperament is influenced by the color of the card you draw. If you're choleric or in a bad mood, holding a red card isn't going to make you suddenly not in a bad mood.

-TTH

True, but not really what I was asking. Does mastin have a history of outbursts, and if she does is it helpful for alignment?
I know, it's a bit lazy of me to ask this vs. looking it up myself. Just hoping someone will know offhand...

BTW this post can also be used in my defense. Just because I got a little worked up over being scum read off the bat in nearly every game (and over nothing) doesn't imply I got red this time...

[davesaz]

Explain please.

[davesaz]

Umm, I never said that the

rage

was faked. That was a real fingers shaking so bad you almost can't type kind of rage.

Yes, I definitely hinted at there being a "prove I'm town" strategy to my posting. Don't think I've tried to hide that.

[davesaz]

So I've learned this game (and a couple of other recent ones).
Act scummy (by the standards of the sites I played on before) so you get town read just seems so counter intuitive.

[davesaz]

@All
What do you think about Killa, that L-1 in the middle of the discussion about him and Aneninen being on Tean as a possible anchor wagon for scum is a problem for me.

I saw the term anchor wagon a couple of times and forgot to ask what the term means.

[davesaz]

I thought it was rather suspicious that eyestott had percentages ready at hand. Also bothers me that all the stats posted so far before Heartless are on how unlikely the 2nd tracker is, while avoiding the issue of how likely it is to be fake and there be no I's.

[davesaz]

OK, TBH I didn't go back and re-read. I got the impression that the focus on numbers happened pretty fast, but maybe "ready at hand" is too strong.

I place a higher importance on the probability that it's fake vs. real. Focusing on the probability of a 2nd tracker is akin to talking yourself into not expecting a CC to be possible, which leads to fallacious bias toward confirming the claim. It's a roughly 2/3 true 1/3 false regardless of another tracker claim.

[davesaz]

I waited to see if there was going to be a shift after I softed to Mastin and she tried to move it off of me, but since there wasn't and I agree that deadline lynches are bad for town this became the next best play, I would not have claimed any other power role but if we are going to use mine we might as well get the most out of it.

I also am still unsure if Mastin is town for it or she was happy killing me off during the night so I wanted to share this, personally I am leaning town.

I can't find this soft you claim to have wafted in Mastin's direction.
In the meantime, vengeful is just about the best scum fake claim there is.
VOTE: copper223

[davesaz]

Seriously, what the hell?

We've had wagons on myself, eyestott, and copper. All 3 of us claimed, and according to the claims we're all town.
If there is a fake claim, vengeful would be it. Even if there is also a vig, it would be KK and thus a counter is meaningless. At least with II, the 2nd tracker is one-shot and confirms the existence of a full.

Assuming the 3 wagons are all on town, the town doesn't just need me to give some reads, or TTH's attention, it needs

all

the town to

wake up

!

[davesaz]

I'll be honest, my approach has been somewhat lazy. I got seriously pissed off by the early wagon, and really demoralized by a bunch of scummy stuff being ignored by the same people who were sheeping Mastin on the so-called "newbscum tells" that have not really been explained. Mea culpa.

Unfortunately, this game is really lacking in strong analysis. Too much taking the easy route by too many people. Not saying it's all bad, but the noise ratio is much higher than optimum.

Peak wagons, at the point of vote counts.
I did not look if the wagons got more/different votes between VC. The point of this is to get an idea of where to look, since re-reading the whole thread and analyzing 10 players would take quite a lot of time. Looking at the copper wagon after the VC was easy and obvious, so I did track it down to the actual max point.

davesaz (5) - Mastin2, Wickedestjr, Tean Samargo, eyestott, copper223

eyestott (5) - dodgy56, BlueBloodedToffee, davesaz, Mastin2, killapenwin

copper223 (4) - BlueBloodedToffee, killapenwin, Heartless, davesaz

Umm, copper only had 3 (or less) votes at time of claim. After I get castigated for claiming VT at L-2?

Really??

On 2 wagons:
Mastin2
BBT
killapenwin


Not on any of the wagons
Vettrock
Aneninen
beastcharizard

Suppose all of these wagons are exclusively town driven. While I can't say why scum would not have been on any of the wagons, a scum team of Vettrock, Aneninen, and beastcharizard is pretty damn appealing. Vettrock has been very noncommital the whole D1 but waves it off as being a bad D1 player. beastcharizard is active lurking and I remember seeing comments that producing content is his scum meta. But meta can be manipulated. And Aneninen has had all those catchup walls.

Let's say that one scum is in the group not on any wagons, and one is in the group who have been on two wagons. Even that narrows down a re-read to just 6 players.

Can I get a little help here? We need to pick someone if we're going to squeeze in a lynch before deadline.

[davesaz]

VOTE: dave

Nice demonstration of sticking your head in your ass. Please remove it.

[davesaz]

@Dave
Are you seriously presenting the idea that every wagon that ended with a claim today was on a town and every player on it was town as well, so the people left over are mafia? I'd say that is almost as likely as you getting hit by a meteorite in the next 15 seconds.

What's with all the emphasis on statistics?

Did you read the

whole

post? And understand it?

If we accept all 3 claims (I guarantee mine is true and I assume you'd do the same for yours) there are 10 candidates for scum left.
I know for a fact that I won't have time to thoroughly investigate and analyze all 10 players, early enough to rally a lynch.

The scum team being within the 3 non-voters is one theory.
The scum team being within one of the 3 non-voters and one of the 2-voters is another theory.

I ended the post with saying there are 6 to investigate (3 non-voters and 3 2-voters). 6 is less than 10, last time I checked.

Could it still be wrong and all the scum are in the 1-voters? Sure, that's obviously possible.

[davesaz]

On 2 wagons:
Mastin2
BBT
killapenwin


Not on any of the wagons
Vettrock
Aneninen
beastcharizard

i think tean is scummier than most of these names. your approach isn't "lazy" it's "arbitrary and random"

Have you made a case for that?

I wonder if you read the whole post as well. The first paragraph is about

before today

. Yes, I've been lazy. I'd say there are some in the player list who have been even lazier. Just one more double standard to add to my list of reasons town is fucked up this game.

Pedit: @BBT, I specifically stated that I looked at peak wagon size in the official VC. The ones I quoted from are the only ones I looked at. There are probably other players who have been on more than one of the wagons at some point. However, you also are having problems reading the

whole content

of my post. I'm explicitly assuming that copper and eyestott are town with me, and therefore excluded from the list. If there is a fake claim (remember, I'm one of the few people who

doubted

both claims) then the whole analysis is meaningless.

[davesaz]

Oh, good, people doing actual work.

EBWOP: Last sentence of 852 c/analysis/premise. I haven't gotten started on analysis of the premise yet. This is me being honest again. Any questions?

[davesaz]

First one I noticed that had the peak number.

[davesaz]

You're making a wild assumption that I scanned top down. When looking for peak wagon reverse order is most revealing. I can't remember who it was that argued this very point in a previous game.

[davesaz]

Now, suppose we stop looking for nit picky details (conf bias anyone) and instead try to find actual scum.

[davesaz]

@Heartless Thanks. I could have looked... but do you want to push the read? FWIW, I never had Tean as town and never got the point of anyone town reading them. I've waffled between scum and null -- I get a scum and then Tean posts something that moves it back to null.

Some gut reads: (full disclosure, I didn't bother to look at any old reads I might have posted.)

I can quite easily say that beast is the least likely of the non-voters to be scum. I have seen beast act just like this, and his name appeared on the list solely for voting pattern. Town side of null but very weak. I was kinda surprised he beetlejuiced so quickly which is promising.

BBT's most recent few posts are strongly reminiscent of the way he reacted to soft suspicion in a town game. It's nothing like the way he played as scum in an earlier game. I'm uncomfortable using meta, and not just for his sig. I see definite signs that both his scum and town games are situational, and the meta is likely very easy to get wrong. Aside from the defensive nature of focusing on the list of voters on more than one wagon, it seems town motivated to want to get the suspect list right. Lean town though I still want to confirm with some re-reads.

When I read Mastin, I want to throw meta out the window and say this is scum opportunism to the core. She even said she thrives in semi-open random setups, which looks like so much WIFOM unless you consider that she might say that just to throw off suspicion. Constantly mentioning the streak is another thing which is WIFOMy but potentially telling. Reactions like the "you really don't want to call me a liar" thing make for great townlike theater but if someone acts that way all the time it says nothing about alignment. In which case emphasis on

theater

. Lean scum. I'd go stronger with this, but I feel this is a player that you need your ducks lined up in order to attack, especially D1. I've had a bad experience with that but can't give details for the obvious reason. And hell yes, this approach (wanting ducks lined up) is survivalist. It's also consistent with how I play so bite me if you don't like it.

That's 3 of the 6 I pointed out, plus a bonus response on Tean. IOU quotes and analysis.
Stopping for now, to limit the wall size and because I'm being pressured by the family to go out and do stuff today.

Pedit @Heartless. Haven't heard the 'pop' yet, and time is running out. Mislynches are bad for town.

[davesaz]

Copper, I appreciate the information but we need analysis.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Heartless

Re-starting a mislynch on the towniest player in the game.

Intent to self-hammer

at deadline

if scum go for the no-lynch.

@Mod: Advance warning, I do not consider this against town wincon. Town needs the flip more than it needs me alive

[davesaz]

Back at a computer where I can do proper replies.

@Dav
Care to explain this?

I'll be honest, my approach has been somewhat lazy. I got seriously pissed off by the early wagon, and really demoralized by

a bunch of scummy stuff being ignored

by the same people who were sheeping Mastin on the so-called "newbscum tells" that have not really been explained. Mea culpa.

Where, when and what?

The answers can be found in several of my own posts. See 198 215 216 220 238 259 276.

[davesaz]

The first point was the VCA I did and finding out there is a pretty slim chance of both Dave and Eyes being town, before doing it I hadn't realized that was the case. Once you assume one is scum and one is town I went through the people supporting either one or the other and I noticed I was always reading the dave supporters as town in isolation, only the fact Eyes claimed tracker was changing my read on them, and as I said that's the wrong approach, if your reads tell you a) and a claim tells you b), you should listen to your reads or you should play another game.

I didn't follow exactly why/how the VCA proves we both can't be town. One of us could just be wrong about our votes.
However, if that analysis is compelling enough then I'm totally willing to be on an eyestott wagon, given I know I'm town.

[davesaz]

I can always go for the hero shot or egg in the face if you get me lynched, or it won't be on me if we end up on Dave and it's a mislynch, the important part for me is I won't support lynching someone when I don't believe he is scum just because it's the easy way out.

I have to admit, if you're faking it you're doing a very good job going all in with the act. And if you're not faking it, it's really a suicide run given scum know town will never lynch you unless we're confident you'll vengekill scum. Scum pretty much have to NK you, don't they?

[davesaz]

Of all the stuff posted in the last few hours, is this really the most productive thing you can focus on?

[davesaz]

someone w/ a vote on us doesn't exactly have much room to criticize someone else's productivity

I think you know what you'll need to do before that happens.

[davesaz]

Umm, Heartless is an easy target?

[davesaz]

Protip: try actually reading.

[davesaz]

Unless we have a doc, both eyestott and copper are nightkill bait. We can lynch them easy enough if they're still alive in a couple of days.

Heartless is pushing an obvious mislynch. I also see scum in the hydra dissonance -- Anti thinks I'm easy meat, while TTH knows from personal experience I can nail scum who go after me with no evidence. I challenge anyone to quote a post of mine in this game and show clear scum intent in the post. My vote is on scum. I put mastin in the same category but can only vote one. It would have been safer for scum to leave me alone and NK me later. Town can win, if they follow my reads after I'm gone.

[davesaz]

I'd go stronger with this, but I feel this is a player that you need your ducks lined up in order to attack, especially D1. I've had a bad experience with that but can't give details for the obvious reason. And hell yes, this approach (wanting ducks lined up) is survivalist. It's also consistent with how I play so bite me if you don't like it.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaah,
And you wonder why I scumread him.

And it's scummy how?

[davesaz]

Between davesaz and Tean Samargo, I think dave is significantly scummier - he’s active when under pressure and coasting when not. Consider also his weak scum hunting, various strange posts and seemingly attempted town tells throughout the thread and you’ve got a player that in no way resembles town. His lynch is also superior to Tean’s in that he is already known not to be a town power role. We could get him today and Tean wouldn’t have to claim before the night. Tean is still suspicious, but I think dave is the best choice now.

Quote it and explain why it's scummy. Not a single player has been able to do that the entire game.

I mean, c'mon people, not everyone can be mensa strength, but at least some of you must have a little intelligence.

[davesaz]

Antihero's read progression on you since Post 825 has been pretty clearly explained and I actually think it's pretty damn valid. I see you've got the bluster part down, dave, but I don't see any actual arguments to back them up.

Where's the bluster even coming from? You didn't vote scum in m9++ until the wagon already had a couple votes, and even then you wanted to vote me.

-TTH

Quote a post of mine and say why it is scummy. Why is this so hard? Because there aren't any!

[davesaz]

Of all the stuff posted in the last few hours, is this really the most productive thing you can focus on?

Is this really your final answer? A deflection? To thevery least I would expect a townie to explain why they thought that the mentioned posts were you pointing out some scummy things happening. But your answer here is telling me "Oh snap, the jig is up! I should try avoiding an answer and redirect this attention."

Originally, I thought it was strange that you should mention that there were scummy things going about that was being ignored. I didn't see you push it via voting, or point them out. Now that you pointed them out, I'll accepted it.

The problem is now, most of these things aren't even you pointing out things that are scummy. They were either defensive posts on your end, or vague questions that tell no one of what your opinion on the matter is. Looking through this list, I only see 2 posts that show you pointing out something scummy. It's as if you expected me to look at your post, and tell myself "Wow look at all these posts. He definitely was scum hunting the whole time. I might as well not click them and see whats in it."

The unrelated links feel like filler, and it looks like you're trying to strengthen your argument by adding a larger quantity of links. Not exactly the towniest thing to do. That deflection right at the end makes your action down right scummier.

What you're calling a deflection is yet another obvtown tell. Don't waste your votes on me, try someone else.

Inactivity is scummier than anything I've done.
Voting me when I've done nothing scummy is scummier than anything I've done.
I'm not just attempting town tells, I'm posting actual town tells, like the only thing that will confirm me more is an actual flip.

I had very strong scum reads on both eyestott and copper. Everything I was seeing had been posted by someone else. I'm in UTC-7 and one of the last people to get to my active time of day, on a daily basis. Weekdays I'm lucky to get to it before 9pm my time (middle of the night BBT's time), and it's typical for there to be no other posts in the thread until morning my time when I'm back working and can't play. It's scummy to do nothing but repeat what others already said, so I don't regurgitate.

What the hell am I supposed to do here? I do have unique scum reads (Heartless and Mastin) but the best I'm gonna get with that is vanity wagons.
No point in lynching the PRs, if they're town then mafia have to kill copper anyway and aren't likely to leave a tracker alive either.

Either lynch me and get it over with, or

move on and try to lynch scum

.

[davesaz]

Spoiler:

'mkay so going back to tth's town block from a while ago.......

Right now, I'm working from townreads on: davesaz, eyestott, dodgy, BlueBloodedToffee, Tean Samargo, and Wickedestjr for varying reasons.

dave's kind of been fading into the background as of late. after his wagon died down. (yikes)

i think tth's point about eyestott+dodgy and reading around the argument is valid. plus i think dodgy's been decently town lately. sticking w/ those reads.

yeah, agree w/ the bbt read too.

i'm looking over tean right now and...... their stuff isn't really as good as i remember it being. i thought the start was ok but now they're just kind of floating around (i see something about how they think dodgy vs eyes is tvs, but then the votes on..........dave,? that read seems stale and hasn't been revisited recently. what's up with that?) they're not really....going anywhere or getting much done despite the fact they've posted a couple walls recently batting down wicked's attack and talking about eyesvdodge (relatively held back though)

wicked's also p town.

I waited to see if there was going to be a shift after I softed to Mastin and she tried to move it off of me, but since there wasn't and I agree that deadline lynches are bad for town this became the next best play, I would not have claimed any other power role but if we are going to use mine we might as well get the most out of it.

I also am still unsure if Mastin is town for it or she was happy killing me off during the night so I wanted to share this, personally I am leaning town.

I can't find this soft you claim to have wafted in Mastin's direction.
In the meantime, vengeful is just about the best scum fake claim there is.
VOTE: copper223

anything to add other than glomming onto what i already said?

you should...like... post reads

the dave read is so stale and that last post was so horrible
UNVOTE:

if copper is town he it's definitely better to have him alive than dead. the vig shot's not worth it.

Seriously, what the hell?

We've had wagons on myself, eyestott, and copper. All 3 of us claimed, and according to the claims we're all town.
If there is a fake claim, vengeful would be it. Even if there is also a vig, it would be KK and thus a counter is meaningless. At least with II, the 2nd tracker is one-shot and confirms the existence of a full.

Assuming the 3 wagons are all on town, the town doesn't just need me to give some reads, or TTH's attention, it needs

all

the town to

wake up

!

there's a 1% chance there's 2 k's. if there's a vig, the obvious optimal strategy would be to stay quiet and shoot copper.

vengeful is not the best fakeclaim

On 2 wagons:
Mastin2
BBT
killapenwin


Not on any of the wagons
Vettrock
Aneninen
beastcharizard

i think tean is scummier than most of these names. your approach isn't "lazy" it's "arbitrary and random"

You're analysis clearly didn't go very deep.

^^^^^^^^

this

and the

kicker

is that there's no core, fundamental reason for WHY scum would vote 2 wagons, or why they would be no wagoners, or why they would vote one wagon or whatever. we're just presented w/ this framework that has no reason for existing.

it's flinging shit against the wall and seeing what sticks.

Not a fan of the Dave wagon.

really?
so i guess you're a fan of non-specific shotgunning then OMGZ SO MUCH RAEG FJDK;LIAEIO;JDSLFA;SIE when that breaks down

really, that whole bolded "message to the mod" (hominahominahomina)? not fooling me. for a second.

btw, ur full of crap if u try to take credit for the fud lynch in m9++. i read that game.

once your "vca" turned into a pile of mushy shit, your case becomes based on nothing more than thinly veiled omgus under the guise of "EVERYONE'S PICKING ON ME."

there's nothing at the core of your scumhunting aside from shallow platitudes and generalities that lead fucking nowhere.

it's fake.

you're scum.

I knew FuD was scum on about page 3 but nobody would listen to me.
I sure as hell did catch scum in that game. Heartless totally gets the credit for starting the wagon, but don't try to tell me I had nothing to do with it.

[davesaz]

BTW,

if

Mastin turns up scum here.

I knew on page 2.

[davesaz]

It's telling me he thinks giving the appeareance of being town is a good thing to do regardless of alignment and hence playstile (bad at that).

I also find it unlikely scum has the balls to say they played a flawless town game in davesaz's position.

I'm saying that nobody has quoted a post and said

why

it is scummy.

There's no flawless here, I've obviously fucked up somehow to be town and get so many votes.

I do indeed think it is the best playstyle to always do things to look town. I had a 13 game win streak on one of the other sites and the only major difference in my play is that I'm allowed to use language here that would get people banned over there. Yes, that's an appeal to my own authority, no it's not scummy. And I know fully well that 13 games is a drop in the bucket here, there are probably dozens of people who have done that. We only played about 20 games a year on the other site, you do the math.

I might have to invent a whole new style in order to thrive on MS. Honesty doesn't get anywhere near as much credit as I'm used to, and people have much itchier trigger fingers here. And people get away with lurking as scum that would have drawn an instant lynch where I come from.

Believe it or not, I'm getting reads off this. Heartless scum, Mastin scum. Copper town. There are more but I haven't been keeping track off the top of my head so would need to finish posting this to go back and look. Are these reads right? Maybe not, but it's what I have, and while I might not fit in socially yet I'm definitely not stupid.

[davesaz]

Link?

[davesaz]

I'll be honest, my approach has been somewhat lazy.

I got seriously pissed off by the early wagon, and really demoralized by a bunch of scummy stuff being ignored by the same people who were sheeping Mastin on the so-called "newbscum tells" that have not really been explained. Mea culpa.

Unfortunately, this game is

really lacking in strong analysis

. Too much taking the easy route by too many people. Not saying it's all bad, but the noise ratio is much higher than optimum.

Peak wagons, at the point of vote counts.

I did not look if the wagons got more/different votes between VC

. The point of this is to get an idea of where to look, since re-reading the whole thread and analyzing 10 players would take quite a lot of time. Looking at the copper wagon after the VC was easy and obvious, so I did track it down to the actual max point.

davesaz (5) - Mastin2, Wickedestjr, Tean Samargo, eyestott, copper223

eyestott (5) - dodgy56, BlueBloodedToffee, davesaz, Mastin2, killapenwin

copper223 (4) - BlueBloodedToffee, killapenwin, Heartless, davesaz

Umm,

copper only had 3 (or less) votes at time of claim

.

After I get castigated for claiming VT at L-2?

Really??

On 2 wagons:
Mastin2
BBT
killapenwin


Not on any of the wagons
Vettrock
Aneninen
beastcharizard

Suppose

all of these wagons are exclusively town driven. While I can't say why scum would not have been on any of the wagons, a scum team of Vettrock, Aneninen, and beastcharizard is pretty damn appealing. Vettrock has been very noncommital the whole D1 but waves it off as being a bad D1 player. beastcharizard is active lurking and I remember seeing comments that producing content is his scum meta. But meta can be manipulated. And Aneninen has had all those catchup walls.

Let's say

that one scum is in the group not on any wagons, and one is in the group who have been on two wagons. Even that narrows down a re-read to just 6 players.

Can I get a little help here

? We need to pick someone if we're going to squeeze in a lynch before deadline.

Let's review the bolded parts.

1. Honesty
   
2. An opinion on how the game is going. By definition an opinion cannot be a lie. It can be wrong. (hint: more honesty)
   
3. Honesty
   
4. An observation of fact
   
5. Underlined: a statement that I got more shit for claiming early than copper did, and he claimed even earlier
   
6. A theory which needs research
   
7. Another theory which needs research
   
8. A plea to get some help researching theories

What happened after that?

Heartless ignores all of the points and calls this scummy.
Copper actually helps
Mastin ignores the entire post, and everything else I've posted in the last couple of days.

[davesaz]

Care to try again?

[davesaz]

More bolding for people having reading comprehension problems.

@Heartless Thanks. I could have looked... but do you want to push the read? FWIW,

I never had Tean as town

and never got the point of anyone town reading them. I've waffled between scum and null -- I get a scum and then Tean posts something that moves it back to null.

Some gut reads: (

full disclosure, I didn't bother to look at any old reads I might have posted.

)

I can quite easily say that

beast is the least likely of the non-voters to be scum

. I have seen beast act just like this, and his name appeared on the list solely for voting pattern.

Town side of null but very weak

. I was kinda surprised he beetlejuiced so quickly which is promising.

BBT's most recent few posts are strongly reminiscent of the way he reacted to soft suspicion in a town game. It's nothing like the way he played as scum in an earlier game. I'm uncomfortable using meta, and not just for his sig. I see definite signs that both his scum and town games are situational, and the meta is likely very easy to get wrong. Aside from the defensive nature of focusing on the list of voters on more than one wagon, it seems town motivated to want to get the suspect list right.

Lean town

though I still want to confirm with some re-reads.

When I read Mastin, I want to throw meta out the window and say this is

scum opportunism to the core

. She even said she thrives in semi-open random setups, which looks like so much WIFOM unless you consider that she might say that just to throw off suspicion. Constantly mentioning the streak is another thing which is WIFOMy but potentially telling. Reactions like the "you really don't want to call me a liar" thing make for great townlike theater but if someone acts that way all the time it says nothing about alignment. In which case emphasis on

theater

.

Lean scum.

I'd go stronger with this, but I feel this is a player that you need your ducks lined up in order to attack, especially D1. I've had a bad experience with that but can't give details for the obvious reason. And hell yes, this approach (wanting ducks lined up) is survivalist. It's also consistent with how I play so bite me if you don't like it.

That's 3 of the 6 I pointed out, plus a bonus response on Tean.

IOU quotes and analysis

.
Stopping for now, to limit the wall size and because I'm being pressured by the family to go out and do stuff today.

Pedit @Heartless. Haven't heard the 'pop' yet, and time is running out. Mislynches are bad for town.

Honesty and reads. Bold+italic is both honesty and a read at the same time, but I can't say more without referring to an ongoing game.

[davesaz]

HOLY SHIT EVEN NOW

you're not clarifying your previous arguments or telling me what the basic philosophy is, you're lawyering the fucking post

the sleaze factor is just off the charts and copper just wants to say you're a sleazeball or bad or whatever he was saying

i don't buy any of that

Posts like this are the basis of my scum read.

[davesaz]

Missed another honesty quote. "I'm being pressured by the family to go out and do stuff today"
I have a life. I don't fade when I'm not the topic of discussion, I fade when I'm busier than a one-armed paper hanger.
You didn't see me whacking your hydra when you were V/LA.

Pedit: Not meta, it's a different player and I got quicklynched. Remember, I don't like being lynched.

Besides, my case on Mastin isn't the type of stuff you give a shit about anyway. In simple terms, she pushed for my lynch with no evidence. I've posted gobs of stuff and she's ignored it.

[davesaz]

Missed another honesty quote. "I'm being pressured by the family to go out and do stuff today"
I have a life. I don't fade when I'm not the topic of discussion, I fade when I'm busier than a one-armed paper hanger.
You didn't see me whacking your hydra when you were V/LA.

i'm looking at your iso right now, i see NO DECLARATION OF V/LA.

this post that you're quoting also happened AFTER i said you faded into the background, so how's that for "honesty"?

Never implied I did. Why would I V/LA when I'm not actually gone? I said I was busy, not gone. I can't post my calendar to show the conference calls, trips to the orthodontist, and scout meetings.

[davesaz]

20 minutes reading Tean Samargo and following threads from that, not quite done with it.
20 minutes doing some dishes
Since I'm not done with that read, I'll start a side project.

Heartless, let's play a game of logic questions. I'll ask and you can answer. If you want to ask as well I have no objection.
Anticipating the next post being "nice misdirection", it's not. This is going to help my read of you. It may help your read of me. Bonus points if we catch scum today. That happens to be what I really care about, it's a matter of getting people (you in particular) to admit it.

1. Is a mislynch ever the best move for town?

[davesaz]

@Heartless (anti) Please take the olive branch and work with me here.

[davesaz]

Here's that Tean thing I was looking up.

Spoiler: wall prevention

93 - penwin scum analysis

97 - vettrock not scum hunting

163 - BBT coasting

182, 189 - my reads list is filler (incorrect but at least it's something)

231 saying i'm active on site but not working here. eyestott opportunistic. penwin salty. dodgy inquisitive, wicked informative (I would use insightful)

530. penwin not hunting. things wouldn't end up well -> vengeful crumb?
asks penwin about people idolizing mastin
says that my 312 means that i wouldn't play optimally as either scum or town

589 clarifies that penwin didn't post "things wouldnt end up well", editing errors. I confirmed that nobody said those exact words. Penwin did say that Tean wasn't looking good.

705 explains the "idolizing mastin" thing, calls eyestott a white knight to mastin and a cheerleader for the wagon
says their vote on me is for reasons other than the cheerleading
Dodgy's vote was too eager to be towny

706 eye and dodgy are not likely to both be scum. if one is scum the other is likely town

708 bbt is town but not completely so

898 my focus is in the wrong place

922 acknowledges that i have pointed out discrepancies in how i'm treated vs others, but questions some of the links

967 again with calling some of the links filler

I think this is probably town. 231, 705, and 706 are quite accurate. 898 is an opinion that town should have. It may even be a little true, though I of course will continue to defend my defensiveness. 922 I see town conceding points a lot more often than scum, and keeping the doubts there and again in 967 isn't something that scum often do -- scum would either capitulate or press harder, the middle road response is much more townie.

I probably should have paid attention to the vote progression, but did not take notes on that.

[davesaz]

Dave, who are your top 3 scum-reads and why?

Mastin -- throwing out empty reads that get wagons started but not backing them up with anything.

Heartless -- I really can't see town being this stubborn. Yes, scum can wiggle their way out and it looks a little like what I'm doing. But when scum flail, they don't openly admit to half the things that people see as scummy. Scum try to deny the charge, not accept it with a "and so what". They'll reject this post too as yet another thing that scum would say to look town. You can lead a horse to water but you don't usually need to make them drink.

I thought Tean might be the next scum read, but my re-read said no they're leaning town.

I'm not a PR worshiper, especially not the roles that eyestott and copper claimed. Copper's behavior leads me to question earlier scum reads and say he's probable town, eyestott is still scummy if it weren't for the claim. That said, I'd much rather consolidate on someone else and let scum have the task of eliminating them.

Wicked is strong town. Of all the people voting me, he's actually saying something concrete about it. I have to swallow my pride and retract the "nobody said why I'm scummy" position.

Beast or vettrock as scum, perhaps? So little to go on...

[davesaz]

BBT - town. Not just for correctly reading me, but he's clearly trying to figure out who is scum if I'm not.

Anen - I honestly don't know. The RL stuff is totally screwing with my read.

dodgy, killapenwin -- you know those players who fade in and out of your sight? These are those players this game. I would have to iso them to refresh my memory of what they have done. Not like vettrock and beast who are barely there at all, dodgy and killapenwin are present and not accounted for.

[davesaz]

I really can't see town being this stubborn.

It seems you don't know Anti very well at all.

Also, where were you when I was suspecting mastin a while ago? If you're going to insist you "caught" her on page 2, it seems you have quite a bit more pride to swallow.

If that suspicion had come with a vote on mastin instead of me, we would now have a wagon on an arguably more scummy player.

2. If a town player is in serious danger of a mislynch, and there is no other wagon or even popular scum read to work with, is defending to try to stop the mislynch reasonable? Note, this is not asking if it's

best

, just if it's reasonable.

Corollary: Suppose said town player's best scum read is the person who started the wagon with absolutely no evidence. Is the likely result of an OMGUS going to be a stampede to wagon that scum read, or will the about-to-be-mislynched townie's action now give people a real reason to vote him where there wasn't one before?

[davesaz]

Corollary: Suppose said town player's best scum read is the person who started the wagon with absolutely no evidence. Is the likely result of an OMGUS going to be a stampede to wagon that scum read, or will the about-to-be-mislynched townie's action now give people a real reason to vote him where there wasn't one before?

If the argument is so flimsy that it

can

be validly dismissed as mere "OMGUS," said argument probably wasn't strong enough to begin with. If the argument

is

strong enough, the townie can easily rebut accusations of OMGUS with specific and cogent reasoning.

I can't make a believable case out of Mastin's first 10 posts, can you?
Double ISO her and me up to her 10th post and see if you can make her case on me.

I appreciate the dialogue. What scum are you going to vote?

[davesaz]

Re 1042: Not sure why the comparison to anti is relevant to reading tean. The posts of teans that i linked include material not related to me which has a large effect on the tean read. Phonepost

[davesaz]

Re 1044 neither read seems to have any basis in fact.

[davesaz]

So much talk, so little action.

Wickedestjr: assume I'm town and apply logic. Go where that naturally leads you.

As for me...
VOTE: Mastin2


Town: lynch someone. You already have my opinion on lynch vs. no-lynch.

[davesaz]

Re 1042: Not sure why the comparison to anti is relevant to reading tean. The posts of teans that i linked include material not related to me which has a large effect on the tean read. Phonepost

You're townreading Tean and scumreading Anti even though they're both saying similar things. There's a fundamental conflict here.

-TTH

Ah, it seems like I'm not the only who cares about being scum read or voted.

[davesaz]

The main wagons are on people I have town reads on.

[davesaz]

Dave, who are your top 3 scum-reads and why?

Mastin -- throwing out empty reads that get wagons started but not backing them up with anything.

Heartless -- I really can't see town being this stubborn. Yes, scum can wiggle their way out and it looks a little like what I'm doing. But when scum flail, they don't openly admit to half the things that people see as scummy. Scum try to deny the charge, not accept it with a "and so what". They'll reject this post too as yet another thing that scum would say to look town. You can lead a horse to water but you don't usually need to make them drink.

I thought Tean might be the next scum read, but my re-read said no they're leaning town.

I'm not a PR worshiper, especially not the roles that eyestott and copper claimed. Copper's behavior leads me to question earlier scum reads and say he's probable town, eyestott is still scummy if it weren't for the claim. That said, I'd much rather consolidate on someone else and let scum have the task of eliminating them.

Wicked is strong town. Of all the people voting me, he's actually saying something concrete about it. I have to swallow my pride and retract the "nobody said why I'm scummy" position.

Beast or vettrock as scum, perhaps? So little to go on...

I got two right (Mastin and Heartless) and one completely wrong (Wicked). Couldn't read Anen at all.