Open 583: JK9++ (Game Over!)

[dodgy56]

ready

[dodgy56]

this game will be interesting for me. ive played mafia on forums elsewhere but this will be my first game here. so forgive me if i dont really understand your meta.

[dodgy56]

VOTE: dodgy


for being a little dodgy...code for scummy.

yep you got me, im that dodgy new bloke

[dodgy56]

this game will be interesting for me. ive played mafia on forums elsewhere but this will be my first game here. so forgive me if i dont really understand your meta.

Hey dodgy, you should probably get an avatar.

Cool, cool cool cool

[dodgy56]

I figured that was a joke post and didn't think anything of it. Everything before the game start post is not game relevant so I don't see why you are trying to use it as such. That is like saying someone is scum because they posted in the sign-up thread at a specific time of the day in a specific spot on the player list. The game hasn't even started and you are deciding who is scum in what seems to be a serious way.

I get impatient when trying to scum hunt early on. When a game first starts, my initial strategy is always either A. say something weird to provoke serious discussion or B. vote based on my initial gut feelings. I chose B this time. I never said nor implied that I had strong evidence for you being scum - I was just voting based on my initial gut feeling. YOU asked ME for my reasoning, so I gave you my page 2 logic, never having advertised better.

You acknowledge that it's too early for me to strongly suspect somebody yet you vote me for not having strong enough reasons. Why can't I start trying now? Several other players have started developing reads but I am the only one you have issue with, and I just happen to be the one voting you.

I'm liking my vote more now.

i see where youre coming from but run me through why its scummy? being a hypocrite doesnt make someone scum. unfortunately in my experience townies do it too (often not on purpose)

[dodgy56]

Disregard 1st quote.
By the way, dodgy:
at the top of each post it says ISO.
If you click that, you can read through all of that users posts.

hard to say much about how im finding it so far. ill let you know after this game

thanks for the tip!

[dodgy56]

i see where youre coming from but run me through why its scummy? being a hypocrite doesnt make someone scum. unfortunately in my experience townies do it too (often not on purpose)

Ehh... I don't think this is really a hypocrisy vote, but I can see why you interpret it as such. There are two reasons why I said "I'm liking my vote more now";
1. His opposition to "trying hard" seems like an anti-scumhunting attitude which I dislike. I think "trying hard" is how games get out of RVS and an essential part of the early game.
2. His specific issue with my vote for him is weird because I'm one of several people "trying hard". There are several others, yet I'm the one that beast is voting right now and I can't help but wonder if his vote is self-defense rather than the reasoning he gave. His vote for me doesn't seem like a genuine town reaction.

ah ok,

thank you for clarifying.

[dodgy56]

eyestott's another good vote

why?
if you are going to say someone is worth a vote you need to convince us of it

[dodgy56]

for what its worth i have played with eyestott over at another site playdip. i think only 1 game though. However, i am kinda curious abotu his early interaction with me. it was helpful but it also kinda came across as buddying. and i can see why eyestott as scum might think he could get me onside by buddying me early. killapenwin may also have a point in his above post regarding eyestott's vote on him. definitely someone i will keep a closer eye on.

[dodgy56]

ok im going to get the ball started here. i havent played in this set up before. what are peoples thoughts on the mechanics of this game? or how are you planning on approaching this game?

[dodgy56]

ok im going to get the ball started here. i havent played in this set up before. what are peoples thoughts on the mechanics of this game? or how are you planning on approaching this game?

Just treat it like a normal game until we have more information to work with. We know the setup is somewhat balanced, but there is no way of knowing what the specific setup is unless people claim, and we want to keep our power roles a mystery for as long as possible. Once roles are revealed, then there might be benefit to speculation, but I don't think 'now' is the time.

oh of course, i wasnt in anyway suggesting we should reveal. im just trying to work out how you all approach the game. to see whether its similar or different to what im used to.

[dodgy56]

I'm not a good one for informationless RVS cases, but I think I can contribute more as we move along.

yet you voted me on no information?

[dodgy56]

VOTE: eyestott would be my vote at this point.

[dodgy56]

@eyestott- your early interaction with me mainly, it was helpful but came across as buddying fmpov. and i think killapenwin's arguments against you (in paticular point 2) are quite valid.

(plus i noticed i was one of only 2 people not voting at this point so felt like i should place a vote on the person who i felt was scummiest) my vote isnt necessarily a great one but with the limited content in thread atm, its my best read.

[dodgy56]

I'm not a good one for informationless RVS cases, but I think I can contribute more as we move along.

yet you voted me on no information?

My vote on you was an RVS vote. Its only purpose is to get the game moving. As RVS votes move around information is created.

perhaps i misunderstood you when you said you werent a good one for informationless rvs cases? i read that as you saying youre not a fan of RVS voting. or did you mean something else?

[dodgy56]

@eyestott- your early interaction with me mainly, it was helpful but came across as buddying fmpov. and i think killapenwin's arguments against you (in paticular point 2) are quite valid.

(plus i noticed i was one of only 2 people not voting at this point so felt like i should place a vote on the person who i felt was scummiest) my vote isnt necessarily a great one but with the limited content in thread atm, its my best read.

Why is my being nice scummy? Why couldn't it have come from town-me?

it was more just a feel of it. and im not discounting it coming from town you

[dodgy56]

VOTE: eyestott would be my vote at this point.

I often respond to a non-RVS "naked vote", i.e. a vote with little/no surrounding explanation, by immediately calling it out as naked and voting for that player.
I'll give you a pass this time because you got some reasons posted before I had a chance to act.
I mention it here because there are several players in the game who have seen me do it and may question why I didn't do it this time.

Question re: buddying. Do you view different types of helpful posts differently?

ill cop that. i had stated some concerns earlier about eyestott but i probably should have stated them when i made my vote.

in regard ti your question. i judge posts based on context and content. so its a case by case situation.
I think with this if it had been anyone else i would probably feel a bit more comfortable with it as a welcome post. i think because i know eyestott from playdip, it changed my view of it to a certain extent.

[dodgy56]

I mention it here because there are several players in the game who have seen me do it and may question why I didn't do it this time.

On another note, this is not town thinking... this is the thinking of someone who interested in looking town. town's job is to find scum and make themselves understood. they shouldnt be doing things because they care about there image. Scum want to look like town so they certainly have an interest in their image and looking like town.

This post makes me suspicious of you.

[dodgy56]

Mostly skimming right now.

Dave is scum. You can trust me on that.

i dont trust you on that at all. why do you think he is scum?
Dave is a player i would consider voting right now but i want to know what your case against him is.

[dodgy56]

quick question for everyone? when someone is lynched/nked? what information is revealed. At Playdip i have played in games where allignment and role are revealed, games where only their allignment was revealed and even a couple of games where no information about the player killed was revealed. I just wanted to clarify what the case here?

[dodgy56]

Mostly skimming right now.

Dave is scum. You can trust me on that.

i dont trust you on that at all. why do you think he is scum?
Dave is a player i would consider voting right now but i want to know what your case against him is.

dodgy, mastin is just as (If not more) experienced at mafia as the likes of sjg and Crunkus. She cant fully explain, because it would be against the rules (I think because of the "no talking about ongoing games" rule).

being experienced doesnt mean i should blindly trust him. so far i dont have any idea why she thinks dave is scum.. let alone a full explanation

[dodgy56]

there's definiteyl something weird going on in the mastin-eyestott-dave interaction.

[dodgy56]

I would agree with this. Those overly concerned with maintaining a town look, and their own meta is moderately scummy.

I have observed that being concerned with looking town isn't very alignment indicative, but reading that concern as scummy is somewhat indicative of scum (i.e. scum use it for a "case" more often than town do).

perhaps you may be right. all that means is that townies need to stop being concerned with their appearance. but i still dont really buy this.

[dodgy56]

Mostly skimming right now.

Dave is scum. You can trust me on that.

i dont trust you on that at all. why do you think he is scum?
Dave is a player i would consider voting right now but i want to know what your case against him is.

dodgy, mastin is just as (If not more) experienced at mafia as the likes of sjg and Crunkus. She cant fully explain, because it would be against the rules (I think because of the "no talking about ongoing games" rule).

being experienced doesnt mean i should blindly trust him. so far i dont have any idea why she thinks dave is scum.. let alone a full explanation

I'm just saying that technically she can't give any reasons yet.

When she does give her reasons though, they better make damn good sense.

this seems like a bit of a backdown? it seems like you dont want to be seen defending mastin. you go from being certain as to her motive to trying to downplay that certainty. its concerning

[dodgy56]

@Wicked

@Eyestott
why do you think dodge is leaning scum on you for being mister nice guy?

Question feels weak considering dodge voted eyestott. Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but what are you hoping to gain through this inquiry?

I want both perspectives on their direct meta.

would it help if i linked you to a game i played with eyestott recently at playdip? i was town and he was scum

[dodgy56]

Dave is scum. You can trust me on that.

i dont trust you on that at all. why do you think he is scum?
Dave is a player i would consider voting right now but i want to know what your case against him is.

...
"I don't trust you. Why is he scum? I might vote him, though."


...Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, to answer, basically everything. davesaz is throwing just about every newbscum tell in the book.

the fact im considering voting him is completely independent of your read on him.

you say dave is throwing every newbscum tell in the book. do you think he is a newb scum? can someone tell me how experienced dave is?

[dodgy56]

i think wicked is likely town. we seem to be on a similar page with a lot of issues.

i think at least 1 of dave/eyestott/mastin is scum (in order from scummiest to least scummy )

VOTE: dave

[dodgy56]

Dave is scum. You can trust me on that.

i dont trust you on that at all. why do you think he is scum?
Dave is a player i would consider voting right now but i want to know what your case against him is.

...
"I don't trust you. Why is he scum? I might vote him, though."


...Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, to answer, basically everything. davesaz is throwing just about every newbscum tell in the book.

the fact im considering voting him is completely independent of your read on him.

you say dave is throwing every newbscum tell in the book. do you think he is a newb scum? can someone tell me how experienced dave is?

to clarify, im using your read on dave to try and get a read on you, not to see how it affects my read on dave. if that makes sense?

[dodgy56]

I would agree with this. Those overly concerned with maintaining a town look, and their own meta is moderately scummy.

I have observed that being concerned with looking town isn't very alignment indicative, but reading that concern as scummy is somewhat indicative of scum (i.e. scum use it for a "case" more often than town do).

perhaps you may be right. all that means is that townies need to stop being concerned with their appearance. but i still dont really buy this.

From this reply I'm not sure you understood what I meant.

Being lynched is bad for both scum and town. A desire to look town, and concern over being seen as scummy, is common to both alignments. It is human nature to want to survive, even in a game such as this one. As town, I don't use "being concerned over appearance" as a scumtell. It is a horrible predictor for alignment. There are other things to look for which are much more effective.

no i understood perfectly what you meant. im saying townies shouldnt be worried about it. if they do the right thing and are open/honest and try to engage sincerely then they dont need to try and look town. Scum however dont have the option of engaging sincerely and as they are the ones trying to blend in, they have an interest in appearing town.

TL;DR townies should stop worrying about their image and worry about scum hunting.

[dodgy56]

no i understood perfectly what you meant. im saying townies shouldnt be worried about it. if they do the right thing and are open/honest and try to engage sincerely then they dont need to try and look town. Scum however dont have the option of engaging sincerely and as they are the ones trying to blend in, they have an interest in appearing town.

TL;DR townies should stop worrying about their image and worry about scum hunting.

And if the path to being open / honest

is

to be conscious of image?

why would that be the path? the idea of looking at your own image is essentially a filter to prevent yourself from looking bad/to make yourself look better. It comes across as forced.

[dodgy56]

this seems like a bit of a backdown? it seems like you dont want to be seen defending mastin. you go from being certain as to her motive to trying to downplay that certainty. its concerning

I'm not backing down f m anything. If mastin gives good reasons for the post, good. But if her reasons suck, it's where I'll vote.
I wasn't "certain" of her motive.

your early posts seem to suggest that you are certain (whether that was what you meant or not i cant say, im just telling you how it read fmpov). They dont have any sort of quantifying measure in the statements. Can you appreciate why im reading it the way i am?

[dodgy56]

just for reference, is there a way we can keep track of vote count other than manually doing it ourselves/looking at the mod post each day?

[dodgy56]

- After Penwins post, ive changed my read on him, but do you not like the mini wagon because you think Penwin is town, or because you think the reasons are bad?

can you point out what exactly in his post changed your mind? it could easily be argued you are just backing away from it because of the flak you copped. im giving you the benefit of the doubt until i hear what your found persuasive
also now that you have unvoted killa who do you think is acting scummiest?

[dodgy56]

UNVOTE:
This kind of dumb play and "rage" combined with an early claim is very often town. The dog piling on the slot was also too quick for my liking.

Regarding beast, it's strange for scum to start the game by shifting your vote like he did, it draws attention, is easily attackable and can piss multiple people off just based on natural OMGUS, but it's true that after it he didn't write anything meaningful.

im kinda thinking along these lines as well atm. not so much about claim but paticularly about how it built up. the build up of both the dave and killa lynches is kinda concerning. i also think there have been some sincere moments and i actually think his engagement with me on the issue of looking at your own image was sincere after his first post, which made him look worse. im still not convinced he isnt scum, but i have more doubt in my mind than i did before.

@copper, are there any votes in the dog piling that you like less than others? Do you think the bw was being pushed by town or scum? if scum which votes do you think are the scummiest?

[dodgy56]

@Dodgy
I like teen's vote the least, the speed with which it picked up hints at a town push to start off with.

i can understand that. its interesting that he was also involved in the Killapenwin bandwagon and jumped onto Dave once killa started losing momentum and once dave was gaining momentum

[dodgy56]

i think wicked is likely town.

At this point, even if he's scum he's still town because dammit, he's just so damn town in his recent posting. (Mind you, I've always read him as scum when he's town so me having a townread is making me paranoid that this time he's actually scum. But screw paranoia, I'm sticking to that townread.)

ohh i hate that feeling

[dodgy56]

I see we have all just descended into throwing out random votes with no explanation, I was just about to vote on dodgy and with the same reasoning but that damn vettrock beat me to it. Either that or he is playing Jedi mind tricks on me, which would be rather devious of him. I am watching you little green dwarf.

So youre criticizing people for giving a lack of explanation in RVS, then say you were just about to vote dodgy for the same reasoning someone else gave?
VOTE: Killapenwin.

1: @eyestott: You mean me pointing out what everyone is doing and then saying I not going to because someone already posted the thing I was going to say to join in with the random voting?

2: You seem pretty quick to throw a vote on me without even questioning me first, I see that as more scummy than town.

3:I am not sure if people even know what a haiku is and at this stage of the game I don't think anyone is going to have a strong read on Tean's alignment after 2 posts. So no, I do not know if Tean is scum or not but similarly to Eyestott I wouldn't look favourably on Tean's were to continue his vote on me simply for his lack of reasoning.

4: Clearly any attempt at banter I have tried to make has failed miserably so I will just be serious from now on.

1: I didnt understand this. Why should what other people are doing in RVS prevent you from doing things?
2: We were barely out of RVS at that time. My vote was only slightly serious, but having seen your response, I'm happy with it. Why is it scummy, and better yet, if you think I'm scummy, why arent you voting me? I actually find you scummy for just calling me scummy, but doing nothing. Its passive aggressive behaviour, which is pretty scummy.
3: Hilariously
Socio-economic
Hippopotamus
Both of your scumreads (which you havent voted) are on people who have voted you. Additionally, youre passing off Tean's vote as one with a "lack of reasoning". And again with passive aggressiveness, but this time its masking a threat.
4: Where have you made "banter"? Or are you trying to pass off scummy behavior as banter?
"Nah guys, when i said that, i was just joking!"

1. As I said he posted what I was going to throw out as joke vote as that seemed to be what the rest of you were doing at that stage.
2. Your vote on me looked like it was intended to start a bandwagon (it put me in the lead) and you never quizzed me you just decided to put me ahead of everyone else and as it had little reasoning I thought it was scummy.
3. I only get 1 vote and would like to use it wisely so I will put it on who I feel deserves to be voted for. 'Revenge voting' can also look scummy, too.
I would rather put my vote out there with a reason as to why I am voting that way than to not.
When you don't give a reason you deny that person and others the chance to challenge your vote, if we allow this to happen it gives scum a much higher chance of hiding behind poor reasoned votes. It is better for town to have as much info as possible to work on.
4. I tried a little bit with 'jedi mind tricks' post but like I say those posts were poorly received so I stopped.

Point 2 and Point 3 really look like theyre coming from a town mindset.
I can see why he though my vote was bad, as it put him in the lead, and had little reasoning even though I dont think he realised it was a predominantly RVS vote.
I also liked his point where he says that he wants to use it wisely and that just OMGUSing is not what he wanted to do.

ok that answer makes me feel a bit better about your unvote

[dodgy56]

Oh yeah, now that its at L-3 again, Ill VOTE: davesaz, until he stops being my top scumread.

did you read anything at all that copper or i wrote on dave and why he is looking less scummy? this vote isnt helping my perception of you. What do you make of how the bandwagons on killa and dave have developed and/or collapsed?

also
UNVOTE:

[dodgy56]

Also, super-close-to-chest right now, but I

may

have a second scumread.

@thread: Is it ok for one player to get pounded for not having strong reads, but another to be proud of

maybe

having a 2nd scum read?
I don't think so.
Where are the questions?
And I really don't care about reputation.

i think thats a fair question. so far i dont see how anyone can have a

strong read

on anyone either way. If anyone has a strong town or scum read, please explain why. FMPOV having weak reads at this point is fine. id rather people have weak reads that are logical and that i can follow than supposed strong reads that havent been explained. if you have a read i think you should be sharing it. or giving us a good reason why you arent. if you are town you have nothing to hide other than your role?

[dodgy56]

Prodge.

Fuck.

so you are absent from the thread for 48 hours and when you come back this is your only contribution? a meaningless piece of drivel?

like seriously?

if you are town lift you game because at the moment you arent helping anyone. all you are doing is making it easier for scum to lurk.

[dodgy56]

We'll both be LA for the next week due to travelling.

who is we in this context?

[dodgy56]

so you are absent from the thread for 48 hours and when you come back this is your only contribution? a meaningless piece of drivel?

like seriously?

if you are town lift you game because at the moment you arent helping anyone. all you are doing is making it easier for scum to lurk.

How do you know I'm not scum lurking?

VOTE: Dodgy

what? how is what i said worth a vote?

i dont know if you are scum... im beginning to feel like you are... but all i was saying is if you are town you need to lift your game?

Moreover i find it odd that as soon as i call you out you respond straight away, meaning you are paying attention to the thread. Which begs the question why arent you responding to anything actually going on in thread?

Perhaps you are scum lurking?

[dodgy56]

We'll both be LA for the next week due to travelling.

who is we in this context?

Heartless is a hydra of AntiHero and TellTaleHeart, so I assume she meant the two of them.

thank you.

[dodgy56]

can anyone make sense of why BBT is voting me?

[dodgy56]

ok im going to get the ball started here. i havent played in this set up before. what are peoples thoughts on the mechanics of this game? or how are you planning on approaching this game?

Wow, this is scummy as fuck.

Translation - 'Hey, can you all tell me how you're planning on approaching this game and then myself and my scum-team can adjust our game plan accordingly.'

this is my first game on this site, im trying to understand how you guys play here. please explain to me how thats allignment indicative?

[dodgy56]

121 -

Dave is a player i would consider voting right now but i want to know what your case against him is.

This looks like 'Give me a reason to vote Dave.' Don't like it.

there's definiteyl something weird going on in the mastin-eyestott-dave interaction.

Yeah, elaborate on this?

i already answered the first part. my read on dave was independent of what mastin's read was. i was trying to use mastin's read on dave to get a read on mastin.

the 2nd part.

mastin was certain dave was scum- eyestott defended that read in a way which was weird, and seemed too certain of the reasoning when no reasons had been included. Eyestott then backed down and tried to down play it. Then we also have eyestott's vote which only came once dave had dropped down from L-2- even though eyestott was scumreading him before that.

My read on dave has been lessened by the way the wagon built up on dave

VOTE: eyestott seems the scummiest to me atm- all this plus include his buddying of me earlier, his role in the killapenwin bandwagon and the dave bandwagon.

[dodgy56]

i still dont like BBT's vote on me... it still makes no sense.. he has at least attempted to catch up though. However his read on Tean is slighty odd.
@BBT can you please clarify why you are town-reading tean and why exactly you voted for me when you did?

[dodgy56]

Hi Dave, I notice you're online.

Do you not have anything to respond to or are you purposely choosing to ignore it?

@dodgy - tean is town, I feel pretty sure on that. I voted for you because...well...you'll see when I catch up to that part.

why do you feel tean is town?

[dodgy56]

121 -

Dave is a player i would consider voting right now but i want to know what your case against him is.

This looks like 'Give me a reason to vote Dave.' Don't like it.

there's definiteyl something weird going on in the mastin-eyestott-dave interaction.

Yeah, elaborate on this?

i already answered the first part. my read on dave was independent of what mastin's read was. i was trying to use mastin's read on dave to get a read on mastin.

the 2nd part.

mastin was certain dave was scum- eyestott defended that read in a way which was weird, and seemed too certain of the reasoning when no reasons had been included. Eyestott then backed down and tried to down play it. Then we also have eyestott's vote which only came once dave had dropped down from L-2- even though eyestott was scumreading him before that.

My read on dave has been lessened by the way the wagon built up on dave

VOTE: eyestott seems the scummiest to me atm- all this plus include his buddying of me earlier, his role in the killapenwin bandwagon and the dave bandwagon.

When he was at L-2, I decided not to put him at L-1 ONLY for the reason that he had already said that he was considering self-voting, and I had no wish for him to end the day early.

yes but if you felt he was scum why was that an issue? lynching scum is good. Moreover it would have been a good test, you find out if he is actually bluffing, and more importantly if he doesnt self-vote but someone hammers on him, it provides good data. You obviously felt fairly confident in your read on him as you voted him as soon as you realised he wasnt at l-2 anymore.. so why wasnt that confidence there when he was on L-2?

[dodgy56]

121 -

Dave is a player i would consider voting right now but i want to know what your case against him is.

This looks like 'Give me a reason to vote Dave.' Don't like it.

there's definiteyl something weird going on in the mastin-eyestott-dave interaction.

Yeah, elaborate on this?

i already answered the first part. my read on dave was independent of what mastin's read was. i was trying to use mastin's read on dave to get a read on mastin.

the 2nd part.

mastin was certain dave was scum- eyestott defended that read in a way which was weird, and seemed too certain of the reasoning when no reasons had been included. Eyestott then backed down and tried to down play it. Then we also have eyestott's vote which only came once dave had dropped down from L-2- even though eyestott was scumreading him before that.

My read on dave has been lessened by the way the wagon built up on dave

VOTE: eyestott seems the scummiest to me atm- all this plus include his buddying of me earlier, his role in the killapenwin bandwagon and the dave bandwagon.

When he was at L-2, I decided not to put him at L-1 ONLY for the reason that he had already said that he was considering self-voting, and I had no wish for him to end the day early.

yes but if you felt he was scum why was that an issue? lynching scum is good. Moreover it would have been a good test, you find out if he is actually bluffing, and more importantly if he doesnt self-vote but someone hammers on him, it provides good data. You obviously felt fairly confident in your read on him as you voted him as soon as you realised he wasnt at l-2 anymore.. so why wasnt that confidence there when he was on L-2?

Because it would end the day way too early. Why not get as much information as we can?
Ending the day about 3 days in is very bad. Scum lynch is good, but a mislynch after 3 days is bad, as we could have possibly prevented it.

sometimes ending the day early might actually provide more information. it might mean that the scum havent had time to get organised and hide their votes like they do towards the end of the day. note im not saying that we should just be ending the day straight away. you point out some fairly obvious points such as that if we get it wrong and mislynch after 3 days when we might have been able to talk and come to a better lynch is not optimal. im just saying that an early end to the day is not as bad as you seem to be suggesting. Also for the record the sole reason you didnt vote dave originally is that he was at L-2? correct? Was that because of how early in the day it was? or because you didnt want someone at L-1?

[dodgy56]

sometimes ending the day early might actually provide more information. it might mean that the scum havent had time to get organised and hide their votes like they do towards the end of the day. note im not saying that we should just be ending the day straight away. you point out some fairly obvious points such as that if we get it wrong and mislynch after 3 days when we might have been able to talk and come to a better lynch is not optimal. im just saying that an early end to the day is not as bad as you seem to be suggesting. Also for the record the sole reason you didnt vote dave originally is that he was at L-2? correct? Was that because of how early in the day it was? or because you didnt want someone at L-1?

Correct. Both. Mainly the first option, as having someone at L-1 is only dangerous if there is someone who might quickhammer, in this case, himself.
Do you think It would have been more pro-town of me to put someone who has contemplated Self-voting at L-1?
Yes or no?

do you really think as scum he would have selfvoted at L-1? im trying to work out whether you are being sincere here or whether you just didnt want to be vote 6 on him, as you know his allignment? it could easily be distancing, l-1 puts him in real danger if he is your buddy, L-2 is safer. it could be that you dont want to be vote 6 on a townie. idk.

would your vote stay there now if i voted dave and pushed him to L-1 or would you unvote?

[dodgy56]

it depends on the confidence of your read. if you strongly believe he is scum then you should be voting him. if not then you shouldnt. but its your later vote that is making this hard for me to find sincere

[dodgy56]

there can actually be a place for voting yourself as town when it is imperative that you die that day in order to prove a point and lead the remaining town in the right direction. as scum it can never serve a purpose. i wasnt saying you would bus him. i was saying that could be a reason why you didnt vote him to l-1 but were prepared to vote him to l-2.


ok i dont intend to vote him as i think he is probably town at this point. The fact that there hasnt been counterlynch momentum tends to agree with this.

[dodgy56]

it depends on the confidence of your read. if you strongly believe he is scum then you should be voting him. if not then you shouldnt. but its your later vote that is making this hard for me to find sincere

so far i dont see how anyone can have a

strong read

on anyone either way. If anyone has a strong town or scum read, please explain why. FMPOV having weak reads at this point is fine. id rather people have weak reads that are logical and that i can follow than supposed strong reads that havent been explained.

Please just give a yes or no. I am not sure that Dave is scum. He is, however, my top scumread. However, I have no wish for the day to end too quickly.

i cant give a yes or no answer.. it comes down to what you talked about with the person hammering. if you feel strongly enough that someone is scum you vote them in that position, if you dont feel that strongly then you dont vote them. but i find it hard to believe that you werent that confident given you then vote him as soon as he is below L-2. Do you understand why that seems off?

[dodgy56]

203 - Dodgy, this looks like you're posturing to jump off the Dave wagon if it loses momentum. Scummy enough for you to keep voting him, enough doubt in the read for you to jump off if you need to.

204 - Copper, if you disliked Tean's vote the most, why did you not vote for them? Also, in 158 you say Tean vs Killa is 'Town vs town', that's changed now?

205 - Dodgy, it looks like you're testing the waters for a Tean wagon here. Interested to see where this goes.

211/213 - Umm, eyestott, when and why did Dave become your top scum-read? This read seems to have come from nowhere.

215 - Dave, what was you expecting me to do? Also, why me specifically?

219 - Anen, this is interesting. I'm trying to decide if your read on Tean is opportunistic or genuine. You now have Tean as your top scum-read and vote them,

right after

both dodgy and Copper express some disliking of that slot. This feels scummy.

This game is getting exciting.

I feel very confident there is at least one scum in Copper/Dodgy/Anen. Copper and Dodgy are not scum together, Anen could be scum with either of them.

that was the first time i started to feel some doubt about the case i had made against dave. so i decided to look at who was on that lynch (and which of them were also on the killa lynch) and see which votes seemed genuine and which seemed like pure bandwagon votes'

i had missed that copper had said killa vs tean was town vs town. i need to review their interaction

im still null on anen.. it felt genuine at the time fmpov

[dodgy56]

307 - Dodgy, if you were trying to gauge a read on Mastin then you didn't need to include the 'I could vote Dave right now' comment.

308 - All of Tean's posts are so town it hurts. In particular, 93, 97, 182, 189 & 231

My vote on you was because I had misread your preceding post. However, I still find you to be scummy for the other reasons stated during my vatch-up.

310 - I find it astonishing that you can post on this site whilst sleeping. That is a skill.

330 - eyestott, you're voting Dave because he said he would self-vote? That's your only reasoning?

ok fair enough i can see why you are saying my other posts are scummy. i was so confused about your vote at the time though

[dodgy56]

@All
I am reviewing the latest pages and it looks like Dodgy is trying to bury Eyestott, because no matter the answer (and often I actually agree with Dodgy's pov but that's not the point) he argues the opposite.

if you agree with my point, why are you criticising me for arguing it?

[dodgy56]

ok fair enough i can see why you are saying my other posts are scummy. i was so confused about your vote at the time though

What in particular do you agree with regarding your posts being scummy?

UNVOTE:

i can see why it may look like im signposting things so that i have a way out if it doesnt work (its not the case but i can see why you may see it that way).

[dodgy56]

Also Dodgy, what's your read on Tean?

i think my read on tean depends on the allignment of dave. if dave is town, tean's vote and eyestott's vote are the ones that look the worst fmpov at this point. if dave is scum, then im sure about tean. would be neutral. I could see copper as scum for the way he got off the dave lynch once it got to L-2. (granted i am being a little hypocritical here)

[dodgy56]

@Dodgy
I said I agree with

some

of your points, in particular I don't like his l-2 is less significant than l-1 which is less significant than hammer, if you vote a guy you want to lynch him, unless you are clearly doing it to pressure that player, the position on the wagon is irrelevant, but you are attacking him for basically every post he has written.

fair enough. he is still my top scum read though. i probably am tunelling on him a bit. i dont think its a conscious thing though. probably partly because he is the one player i have experience with before this game.

[dodgy56]

@BBT
You are either misusing the word genuine or slipping.

Top 3 scumreads are Dave, Dodgy and Eyes.

whats the basis for your scum read on me? my interaction with Eyestott? otherwise i cant see where your scum read of me came from?

[dodgy56]

What is your read on Tean independent of anything else dodgy?

just did a re-read of all his posts.

im neutral -leaning scum on him. i dont like his involvement in the killa/dave bandwagons. he hasnt expressed a couple of opinions that generally follow the trend of what has been said in thread up to that point. i dont see him doing any scumhunting of his own and it feels like he is trying to just blend in.

[dodgy56]

dodgy

, can you describe your amount of mafia experience prior to this game?

probably 10-12 games at another site with 4 games as scum iirc. a lot of those games are a lot more mechanics and flavour based than this one.

[dodgy56]

but you are attacking him for basically every post he has written.

^^
Dodgy: On the surface, your play looks abit similar to Fable 6, but I've realised that there is nothing I can say that will change your views of me. Besides, you didnt tunnel in Fable, and coming from that game, you should know how much fire townies (Telleo comes to mind) can come under from being one of the last people on a lynch. Throughout my conversations with with you in this game, It looks as if you might be trying to convince everyone I'm scum because you know me, and hardly anyone else does. It looks as though your determined to scumread me, and the reasons come later.

actually i probably did tunnel in fable. look at my interaction with TBO and Telleo. i was wrong there, and its certainly possible im wrong here

[dodgy56]

@Dodgy
I said I agree with

some

of your points, in particular I don't like his l-2 is less significant than l-1 which is less significant than hammer, if you vote a guy you want to lynch him, unless you are clearly doing it to pressure that player, the position on the wagon is irrelevant, but you are attacking him for basically every post he has written.

fair enough. he is still my top scum read though. i probably am tunelling on him a bit. i dont think its a conscious thing though. probably partly because he is the one player i have experience with before this game.

Well, you dont see me tunnelling you, or mastin, or penwin (that was for a few posts) even though I have one completed game with each of you.

no one accused you of tunneling. that was me reflecting on criticism of me that was justified.

[dodgy56]

but you are attacking him for basically every post he has written.

^^
Dodgy: On the surface, your play looks abit similar to Fable 6, but I've realised that there is nothing I can say that will change your views of me. Besides, you didnt tunnel in Fable, and coming from that game, you should know how much fire townies (Telleo comes to mind) can come under from being one of the last people on a lynch. Throughout my conversations with with you in this game, It looks as if you might be trying to convince everyone I'm scum because you know me, and hardly anyone else does. It looks as though your determined to scumread me, and the reasons come later.

actually i probably did tunnel in fable. look at my interaction with TBO and Telleo. i was wrong there, and its certainly possible im wrong here

You did? It didnt really seem so to me, as you ended day 1 on condude. Day 1 was only 4 days, and you managed to scumhunt more than just those few in that time, yet youve spent much more time on me than anuone else.

have a look at my d3 though, the tunneling there was horrible. and yeah its easier to scum hunt on playdip than here. deadlines being shorter means more is expected of you each 24 hour period. so you get more to go on. you dont really get people who go afk for 2-3 days

[dodgy56]

but you are attacking him for basically every post he has written.

^^
Dodgy: On the surface, your play looks abit similar to Fable 6, but I've realised that there is nothing I can say that will change your views of me. Besides, you didnt tunnel in Fable, and coming from that game, you should know how much fire townies (Telleo comes to mind) can come under from being one of the last people on a lynch. Throughout my conversations with with you in this game, It looks as if you might be trying to convince everyone I'm scum because you know me, and hardly anyone else does. It looks as though your determined to scumread me, and the reasons come later.

actually i probably did tunnel in fable. look at my interaction with TBO and Telleo. i was wrong there, and its certainly possible im wrong here

No comment of anything else in this post?

i think you are scum. of course im going to try and convince people. That in no way means you cant change my view. and i take your point about telleo, but that reasoning came after condude was lynched and flipped scum. its a completely different issue when allignment of the lynch candidate is known.

so do you think i am scum or town? your statements suggest that you should be reading me as scum. but you arent voting for me?

[dodgy56]

but you are attacking him for basically every post he has written.

^^
Dodgy: On the surface, your play looks abit similar to Fable 6, but I've realised that there is nothing I can say that will change your views of me. Besides, you didnt tunnel in Fable, and coming from that game, you should know how much fire townies (Telleo comes to mind) can come under from being one of the last people on a lynch. Throughout my conversations with with you in this game, It looks as if you might be trying to convince everyone I'm scum because you know me, and hardly anyone else does. It looks as though your determined to scumread me, and the reasons come later.

actually i probably did tunnel in fable. look at my interaction with TBO and Telleo. i was wrong there, and its certainly possible im wrong here

You did? It didnt really seem so to me, as you ended day 1 on condude. Day 1 was only 4 days, and you managed to scumhunt more than just those few in that time, yet youve spent much more time on me than anuone else.

have a look at my d3 though, the tunneling there was horrible. and yeah its easier to scum hunt on playdip than here. deadlines being shorter means more is expected of you each 24 hour period. so you get more to go on. you dont really get people who go afk for 2-3 days

Its not Day 3 yet, though. I'd have to disagree that its easier on playdip. And you do get afkers:
Constantine, Preston, Alcester to an extent, JC1985, etc.

id argue that fable had a high amount of afkers for playdip. my point about it being easier is that you get more data to go on. i mean look at the number of posts made d1 compared to the first 96 hours here? anyway its not all that relevant. what im trying to get at is that i can get sucked into tunelling. its a bad habit. i know that.

[dodgy56]

I'm leaning scum on you.
Wait no. I think you are scum. Id say youre my second scum read.

behind dave?
Do you see us as potential buddies or do you think it likely that one of us is scum and one is town? or how does the flip of either myself or dave affect your read of the other?

[dodgy56]

Yes. If dave flips scum, id probably think youre not his scumbuddy, so either SK or town.
If town, Id be more confident youre anti-town.

and people think im giving myself a way out??? you set yourself up here so that you can vote me whichever way dave flips...

also interesting that you dont include what happens if dave flips as SK. you clearly know there is a SK yet dont include it? why?

[dodgy56]

I see why Mollie gets uppity about newbie players...

My advice, since you both seem to be scumreading each other (and eyes., that was not an endorsement to turn around and behave the same):

- each of you make a case (being concise would be helpful) about why you think the other is scum.

at this point if you're both town this is an OMGUS based discussion, if one of you is scum the town player's arguments are getting drowned in the back and forth.

case against Eyestott: initial posts which seemed like buddying to me, voted on both bandwagons early in the day (and i think both are likely town at this point, was one of the last voters on the dave bandwagon, Voted dave onyl once he wasnt at L-2 (yet was scum reading him at the time)

thats the basis for my scum read on Eyestott

[dodgy56]

its been a busy couple of days, i need to catch up (should be tonight)

[dodgy56]

@Dodgy

Yes. If dave flips scum, id probably think youre not his scumbuddy, so either SK or town.
If town, Id be more confident youre anti-town.

and people think im giving myself a way out??? you set yourself up here so that you can vote me whichever way dave flips...

also interesting that you dont include what happens if dave flips as SK. you clearly know there is a SK yet dont include it? why?

Dodgy, your point about voting for you either way I dig, but that question aboout Dave I dislike, why do you think forgetting about the SK is alignment indicative?

he already answered why he did so (that the chances were so small) and i can buy that explanation. it probably was a poor question when i look back at it. I was thinking that he might be SK and thus know that dave couldnt flip SK. its possible but i think that was a case of me not giving him enough credit. As SK i doubt he would make a slip like that. i find his explanation the more likely of the 2. Thoughts?

[dodgy56]

case against Eyestott: initial posts which seemed like buddying to me, voted on both bandwagons early in the day (and i think both are likely town at this point, was one of the last voters on the dave bandwagon, Voted dave onyl once he wasnt at L-2 (yet was scum reading him at the time)

thats the basis for my scum read on Eyestott

Ive already established I do that as both alignments.
Ive already established that my KP vote was mainly RVS.
And this last point is not good.My wanting to not put dave at L-1 is perfectly valid, especially since scumdave could just hammer himself and prevent any more information for the day.

wait wait, this thinking is not at all town... you say here you dont want to put dave at L-1(ok this has been discussed, i can understand that) but you go further and state that its worse because

scum dave

could self hammer?

Firstly why on earth would he hammer himself as scum? Secondly why is scum hammering themself there a bad position for the town? a scum lynch d1 is great for the town. like what are you even thinking? how can you honestly believe what you said here as town?

[dodgy56]

case against Eyestott: initial posts which seemed like buddying to me, voted on both bandwagons early in the day (and i think both are likely town at this point, was one of the last voters on the dave bandwagon, Voted dave onyl once he wasnt at L-2 (yet was scum reading him at the time)

thats the basis for my scum read on Eyestott

Ive already established I do that as both alignments.
Ive already established that my KP vote was mainly RVS.
And this last point is not good.My wanting to not put dave at L-1 is perfectly valid, especially since scumdave could just hammer himself and prevent any more information for the day.

wait wait, this thinking is not at all town... you say here you dont want to put dave at L-1(ok this has been discussed, i can understand that) but you go further and state that its worse because

scum dave

could self hammer?

Firstly why on earth would he hammer himself as scum? Secondly why is scum hammering themself there a bad position for the town? a scum lynch d1 is great for the town. like what are you even thinking? how can you honestly believe what you said here as town?

If dave is town: could self hammer for not caring - bad.
If dave is scum: could self hammer very early giving us less information than if we had lynched him a week later. Its good that we lynch a scum, but we could have gotten a lot more information if we lynched him a week later. Besides, if he's scum, he's not likely to start being townread by the majority.
He would hammer himself as scum to end the day before any more information can be gained, such as how he interacts with the other players, accidental slips, etc.

i can understand the conclusion you draw if he is town. I understand the conclusion you draw if he is scum but he would only do that if there was no chance he was avoiding lynch or any other viable candidate is his buddy.
You could be a potential candidate for someone who could take the lynch lead from him.
But none of that is what i really take issue with.
what i take issue with, is why you chose to state teh

especially if he is scum

. If you are town lynching scum is never a downside. and you should be more worried about him hammering if he is town than if he is scum, yet you choose to mention the "if he is scum" in your quantifying statement.

Does anyone else find that off or is it just me?

[dodgy56]

case against Eyestott: initial posts which seemed like buddying to me, voted on both bandwagons early in the day (and i think both are likely town at this point, was one of the last voters on the dave bandwagon, Voted dave onyl once he wasnt at L-2 (yet was scum reading him at the time)

thats the basis for my scum read on Eyestott

Ive already established I do that as both alignments.
Ive already established that my KP vote was mainly RVS.
And this last point is not good.My wanting to not put dave at L-1 is perfectly valid, especially since scumdave could just hammer himself and prevent any more information for the day.

wait wait, this thinking is not at all town... you say here you dont want to put dave at L-1(ok this has been discussed, i can understand that) but you go further and state that its worse because

scum dave

could self hammer?

Firstly why on earth would he hammer himself as scum? Secondly why is scum hammering themself there a bad position for the town? a scum lynch d1 is great for the town. like what are you even thinking? how can you honestly believe what you said here as town?

If dave is town: could self hammer for not caring - bad.
If dave is scum: could self hammer very early giving us less information than if we had lynched him a week later. Its good that we lynch a scum, but we could have gotten a lot more information if we lynched him a week later. Besides, if he's scum, he's not likely to start being townread by the majority.
He would hammer himself as scum to end the day before any more information can be gained, such as how he interacts with the other players, accidental slips, etc.

i can understand the conclusion you draw if he is town. I understand the conclusion you draw if he is scum but he would only do that if there was no chance he was avoiding lynch or any other viable candidate is his buddy.
You could be a potential candidate for someone who could take the lynch lead from him.
But none of that is what i really take issue with.
what i take issue with, is why you chose to state teh

especially if he is scum

. If you are town lynching scum is never a downside. and you should be more worried about him hammering if he is town than if he is scum, yet you choose to mention the "if he is scum" in your quantifying statement.

Does anyone else find that off or is it just me?

@ ANYONE NOT VOTING EYESTOTT.

Please answer the question i ask here and explain to me how eyestott is thinking as town because i just dont see it.

[dodgy56]

@eyes you are missing the point. if you were scum reading him, the concern of him hammering as scum is irrelevant.. explain to me how lynching a scum is ever not in the town's interest? You claim that it means we cant gain more information? as far as i can see that is the only downside to the town if he hammers himself. BUT that downside IN NO WAY AT ALL outweighs the fact that we lynch a scum in that scenario. your concerns are ok - ie i see the points you are making- i just dont see how they comes from a town perspective.

the real downside that a townie should have been concerned about is what happens if he hammers himself as town. THAT IS A MAJOR DOWNSIDE- no arguments about that. the fact you were scum reading him is not all that relevant. and here is why. Even if you were scum reading him you have to consider the fact he might be town. If you do so you would see the far bigger downside i mentioned here. OR if you dont consider that possibility it means that you are so certain that he is scum. And if that is the case it brings us back to the Question of why you didnt vote him to L-1.

can other people please weigh in on this?

@wicked you dont like the lynch im pushing. so clearly you seem to think that eyestott is town. Please explain to me how town eyestott sincerely believes what he is saying here?

[dodgy56]

@eyes you are missing the point. if you were scum reading him, the concern of him hammering as scum is irrelevant.. explain to me how lynching a scum is ever not in the town's interest? You claim that it means we cant gain more information? as far as i can see that is the only downside to the town if he hammers himself. BUT that downside IN NO WAY AT ALL outweighs the fact that we lynch a scum in that scenario. your concerns are ok - ie i see the points you are making- i just dont see how they comes from a town perspective.

the real downside that a townie should have been concerned about is what happens if he hammers himself as town. THAT IS A MAJOR DOWNSIDE- no arguments about that. the fact you were scum reading him is not all that relevant. and here is why. Even if you were scum reading him you have to consider the fact he might be town. If you do so you would see the far bigger downside i mentioned here. OR if you dont consider that possibility it means that you are so certain that he is scum. And if that is the case it brings us back to the Question of why you didnt vote him to L-1.

can other people please weigh in on this?

@wicked you dont like the lynch im pushing. so clearly you seem to think that eyestott is town. Please explain to me how town eyestott sincerely believes what he is saying here?

Its not irrelevant, and i understand and agree that its a good thing on a whole. I never said that a scumdave lynch was bad. Never. I just explained that it would be better if it were further through the day.
And I never said that town dave hammering himself wasnt a major downside. I just didnt say especially before it. I DO see the far bigger downside.

ok so you choose to say "especially even if he is scum" and discuss the scum dave downside without mentioning the town dave downside at the time even though you understand that the far bigger downside is if he is town? and say that because you are scum-reading him?

i honestly cant wrap my head around that logic. this discussion isnt getting us anywhere though. i cant understand that point of view as town (hell im struggling to understand why a scum would use the logic you just displayed- the only thing i can think of is that you are trying to justify your actions after the fact.)

if im reading this wrong i need someone to explain to me the town point of view of eyestott's logic. unless that happens or we somehow get a confirmed scum my vote isnt moving

[dodgy56]

Look, dodgy. Remember my decision to not vote Alcester, and specifically mention why I did so? And how, even though it wasn't actually a scum tell, it got me lynched? That showed that I often have opinions about theory that don't correlate with the general populous, regardless of alignment.
Do you realise the same thing is happening?

i dont recall specifically? but what does that prove as such? you cant really argue you do those things as town based of that as you were scum in that game. whats the point of the analogy? what are you hoping to prove?

[dodgy56]

FML with these early claims, remove your votes from Eyes.

huh what?

[dodgy56]

ok so i clearly missed the post where eyestott claimed tracker...

UNVOTE:

for the record he fake claimed a cop as scum in my last game with him. however he knows i know that so i doubt he would pull that here if he were scum,
im inclined to believe his claim

[dodgy56]

ok so i clearly missed the post where eyestott claimed tracker...

UNVOTE:

for the record he fake claimed a cop as scum in my last game with him. however he knows i know that so i doubt he would pull that here if he were scum,
im inclined to believe his claim

You replied to the post so how did you miss it?

um where did i reply to that post?

i replied to posts around that but i dont recall ever replying to that specific post. do you really think i would have continued my argument with eyestott in the manner i did if i had seen it? Look at what happened between when he claimed and me saying i realised he had claimed, then look at what happened after. i think its fairly obvious i hadnt seen it.

[dodgy56]

I do too.

But, can you vote him please?

i know its WIFOM but i dont think he would pull that play with me here after our last game together (which finished maybe 2 weeks ago)

plus if he did then chances are we will catch him soon enough. so whilst i see where you are coming from and i have issues from before and this doesnt clear him of those issues, he isnt the right vote today.
im sure you can understand this.

[dodgy56]

That's nice.

I can guarantee you that one way to NOT get me off of you is to avoid answering my questions.

So, yeah. Can we lynch Anen now?

definitely within lynching range at this point

[dodgy56]

i could see copper and anen as buddies.

[dodgy56]

Copper, 553 – for your information: I was planning to mislynch Davesaz in that game but he claimed a town-PR. (And that claim was detrimental to my already-bad state.) As for KillerPenguin: I think Tean is scum so, if Penguin is scum too, their early fight has been a faking. What do you think? Is it possible?

I think it is unlikely, Killa is looking a lot worse than Tean now.

Cooper, 568 – that is wrong!!!! In this setup there may be another Tracker too! If there is another tracker, claiming it is VERY bad for the town! It's simple math. Check the setup.

The second tracker would be a 1-shot, you are making the same mistake Eyes did, if there is a full tracker out there he should absolutely claim.

i suggest you go back and read the setup. it is possible we could have 2 full trackers

[dodgy56]

I suggest you get a brain, I am trying not to be rude but the shit I have to read...

thats ok ill save you the time then

VOTE: copper

[dodgy56]

Dodgy, Anen please.

we still have plenty of time to find scum

copper is still pushing for a pr reveal of a tracker even though numerous people have told him he could be wrong.
he then resorts to being rude.

that being said, would a scum push such an obviously bad plan and then double down on it when pressured? idk my gut tends to say no. but a town would see that its a bad plan once it was pointed out to them.

[dodgy56]

@ copper, below is from the setup rules as posted on the wiki link.

Investigation Roles
I = Tracker
II = Tracker, 1-Shot Tracker
III = Tracker, Tracker
IIII = Tracker, Tracker, 1-Shot Tracker
IIIII = Tracker, Tracker, Tracker, 1-Shot Tracker

This clearly shows that it is possible for us to have 2 (or even 3) full trackers. Please stop asking for tracker claims

[dodgy56]

I'll sum it up again, just in case one of you has the misfortune of being tracker and is not claiming:

There is a 7% probability of there being 2 full trackers in this setup.

If a tracker cc's here, 93 times out of 100 we have a guaranteed scum lynch within the first two days and close to a 50% chance of lynching scum on our first day.

This play is superior to any other possible lynch you could come up with day 1, in comparison the average lynch rate based on reads is close to the probability of randomly lynching scum (some say even worse), which in this setup averages roughly 25% (half as much).

So if you are tracker it's necessary for you to claim here.

ok clearly i was misundestanding your reasoning, i thought you were suggesting that we couldnt have 2 full trackers. you are actually just suggesting that it is unlikely. That i can buy more.

[dodgy56]

Oh yeah. Id be unlikely to fakeclaiming an investigative when I'm in a game with someone from Fable.
I fakeclaimed a Flavor cop, to be precise, and I breadcrumbed it and everything.
P.edit: I wasn't responding to the part about us as a team. I was responding to the other part.

@Eyes
While we are waiting, do you still think Dodgy is likely scum?

Yes. I believe he is trying to bail ship on the wagon of a PR. If he actually thought I was scum, he would likely keep some pressure on, question me.

im a little curious about these 2 posts. If you believe the first post, it seems like you believe i was being honest when i said i felt you wouldnt pull that ploy again.

yet you believe that im scum because i bailed on your lynch based on a statement it seems like you feel like im being honest about?

can you explain your thinking across both of these posts?

[dodgy56]

Well, the two arent mutually exclusive. Scum suspects can still have good ideas.

ok ill put it another way? do you believe that it is implausible that i would make that conclusion as town?
if not then how is it scum indicative? Please explain how its more likely that this action comes from scum than from town.

[dodgy56]

Well, the two arent mutually exclusive. Scum suspects can still have good ideas.

ok ill put it another way? do you believe that it is implausible that i would make that conclusion as town?
if not then how is it scum indicative? Please explain how its more likely that this action comes from scum than from town.

Its not implausible at all. Both alignments could say that, so its not really indicative. It wasnt a point for or against you.

yet you still think im scummy and post a scum motivation for it. the still thinking im scummy isnt my issue, its that you add an extra part that is totally unjustified. you even go so far as to call what i did "a good idea"

as i have said i think given your claim and my experience with you, that you are likely telling the truth in your claim. it is wifom and as such it doesnt clear all your other actions/statements. but that doesnt give you a pass

[dodgy56]

Pages 20/21.

dodgy

, do you prefer playing as town or scum?

i enjoy both. i certainly get more satisfaction out of playing as town as i like wrestling with a puzzle. I get more satisfaction from winning as town than scum but i enjoy the actual gameplay as scum more.

[dodgy56]

Why are you still voting him then?

i havent decided who is scummiest yet? i suppose i could have unvoted but yeah.. I dont know that i necessarily read copper as town but hearing that explanation dragged me back to neutral on him.
im still tossing up about voting anen and Vettrock's post about reads was full of fluff and didnt say much. is town-reading tean which i find a little but interesting- i can understand being neutral but i honestly dont know what tean has done to be a town-read (or if it was something someone else did to make vettrock town read tean)

iim about to do a re-read of tean so ill see how my read of vett town-reading tean changes once i work out where i stand on tean

[dodgy56]

so when i look at tean i see not much that has meaning- i dont believe that his claim about his computer is fake and being used as an excuse to lurk. i think that is honest but in no way indicative of allignment.

vote on Killapenwin, still not a fan.
moves on the dave wagon as the killa wagon dies off- one of teh later votes on dave if i recall correctly- yeah this isnt helping after the killa Bandwagon.
have to say i agree with heartless here

@All
What do you think about Killa, that L-1 in the middle of the discussion about him and Aneninen being on Tean as a possible anchor wagon for scum is a problem for me.

I saw the term anchor wagon a couple of times and forgot to ask what the term means.

A place where scum park their votes

while waiting to see on whom they should jump on

.

when i use the term "anchor" i'm talking about a place where scum park their votes BECAUSE THEY'RE COUNTING ON THE WAGON THEY'RE VOTING TO FAIL. it's good for scum because it avoids the immediate scrutiny that comes with being on the lynch wagon, so they intentionally choose a LOSER.

which....... describes tean since the reasoning behind that wagon is somewhere between jack and shit

pushing BBT- early on for not enough activity- i can understand that, i think i accused him of the same- but its a little bit hypocritical. I think he still FOS BBT but im not 100% sure
@tean: whats your read on BBT atm?



@ wicked i also agree with your points about post 530 here

Ok, so I

was

going to devote my next post to two more pages, but then I got to 530. This gem deserves its own post;

Opinions on mastin? I don’t like how people are practically idolizing her and her actions. I think most of her actions are cryptic as fuck, and I'm not sure why some people are blindly following her

Starting to wonder if Tean and I are playing in the same mafia game. This entire quote is baloney.

The statement that “people are practically idolizing her” is a false exaggeration. I can't think of anybody that has come close to idolizing her. Tean, I would love to see examples that justify your statement.

The thought, “I think most of her actions are cryptic as f***” is a very strong opinion that is very surprising considering mastin has actually just started revealing more AND Tean had never mentioned mastin prior to this.

Finally, the “I’m not sure why some people are blindly following her” makes no sense. Tean joined the bandwagon that mastin started (surely they wouldn’t have issue with that following, they took part in it) AND mastin was the one that followed the eyestott scrutiny, not vice versa.

This whole post is absurd and feels like setting up to join a potential bandwagon that could form on mastin. I was going to finish responding to everything else before I voted, but this post just screams "I'm scum!" In combination with everything else I have pointed out regarding them, I will

Unvote. Vote: Tean Samargo

and encourage others to do the same.

yeah im happy to
UNVOTE: VOTE: Tean

and i wouldnt be surprised if Vettrock is a buddy to tean

[dodgy56]

Okay, my dodgy scumread has lessened considerably. A game on my homesite with dodgy in it was just abandoned due to inactivity of other players, and TownDodgy had been tunnelling another town player for a large part of the game.
Prior to this, Tunnelling was not something i saw a lot of in dodgy.

Responses soon.

yeah.... lets not talk about that....

question though? have you ever seen me tunnel as scum?

[dodgy56]

im still liking a tean/vettrock team..

[dodgy56]

What happened to Copper/Anen?

eh im null on copper atm. should probably do a re-read in iso. anen is still within lynching range

[dodgy56]

I like how you think you claiming vengeful makes you town.

PEdit - Dodgy, that's quite a dramatic shift in reads you have made. Can you explain it please?

what was dramatic? the change in my read on copper? that comes from me misunderstanding him when he was talking about the math about a 2nd tracker claiming. once i realised what he actually meant i was back to being neutral on him.

[dodgy56]

Here's the situation:

- I am vengeful so my lynch isn't too bad for town and that was plan b), we can pick a second player we find scummy, I think BBT is a fine choice, at worst we get rid of useless town and it is unusual for him to get this many town reads, the style of posting he has been going with, the point by point catch-up is also a departure from town BBT as I know him, the fact he says he usually pays more attention as scum is an interesting note, but am open to suggestions that do not involve Eyestott, I am also very skeptical about the claim but not willing to shoot a possible PR.

I blame TTH for not being around if they are town because that ruined my plan a) after I joined this game just cause she asked me to, thanks bud, the best strat was to play scummy enough to potentially survive to lylo and more or less seal the win by baiting a quick hammer, that's why I naked voted and followed reads a lot, she should have known I don't play like this as scum and could relieve some pressure but her brother can't read me or is pushing a scum agenda, I think the first is more likely.

Rather than rush a bad deadline lynch, tell me who you think I should take out of the game and why.

if we are talking about killing off dead weight beast is a good place to start. no idea how anybody can have a read on him with his activity the way it is. I also think killing whoever is 2nd in the lynch count today makes sense. it tells us more information that we can use tomorrow

[dodgy56]

@Dodgy
Beast is a terrible kill as it offers no information if he is town and yi hsve rarely seen scum hardcore lurking like that, he said it best with the I am useless but not scummy comment, I can get behind a Dave kill if that's what most of you find useful.

fair enough. i wasnt saying he was scum, i was just saying i have no way of reading him with his activity level as it is.

[dodgy56]

@Dodgy - Yeah, the shift from Copper/Anen to Tean/Vettrock just seemed to happen quite quickly. Are you still interested in lynching Anen?

@Copper, if you're vengeful you know you're not shooting me. I second BC because I can't stand lurkers, if not him, Anen.

yeah i could get behind anen. i prefer tean/vettrock but yeah. i wouldnt mind seeing anen killed by copper either.

[dodgy56]

ok catching up. i honestly dont like the eyestott lynch... and im concerned that mastin is assuming eyes is scum at this point. i was thinking that eyes seemed scummy earlier, but based on experience i dont think he fakeclaimed his role. Moreover he adjusted his read based on a game just finished at my our homesite and if he has scum he has absolutely no reason to do so.

@Mastin i was thinking Anen was my 3rd for tean/vettrock but just realised Anen was voting tean...
Looking back to see when that vote occurred it was way back in 219 so i could easily see that as a distancing vote especially since tean has never really been under that much pressure.

yeah i like tean/vettrock/anen

[dodgy56]

the copper lynch looks very town driven to me. (that doesnt mean copper is scum though) ill be interested to see where vettrock parks his vote next. i have other votes im waiting to see what happens with, but i dont want to telegraph which ones at this point

[dodgy56]

pretty sure eyes is town at this point... in any case lynching a PR claim is a bad idea... plus we can work out if his claim is true or not pretty easily if we give ourselves time. of the other 2 main lynches, i think tean is scummier but dave provides more info.

[dodgy56]

@Dodgy
Why are you pretty sure Eyes is town?

its mainly meta, but i dont see eyes fake claiming a PR given my past experience with him. he also adjusted his read based on one of my games just finished at our homesite. As scum he has no reason to do so (i mean you could claim it is to get some town-cred from me, but im the only one who would know anything about it.) Moreover at that point i was already believing his claim because i doubt scum eyes makes that fkae claim play so it doesnt acheive much. I find it much more likely he saw what happened in that game and realised that what he accusing me of being scum for is something i did as town, so its at best a null tell.

[dodgy56]

Corollary: Suppose said town player's best scum read is the person who started the wagon with absolutely no evidence. Is the likely result of an OMGUS going to be a stampede to wagon that scum read, or will the about-to-be-mislynched townie's action now give people a real reason to vote him where there wasn't one before?

If the argument is so flimsy that it

can

be validly dismissed as mere "OMGUS," said argument probably wasn't strong enough to begin with. If the argument

is

strong enough, the townie can easily rebut accusations of OMGUS with specific and cogent reasoning.

I can't make a believable case out of Mastin's first 10 posts, can you?
Double ISO her and me up to her 10th post and see if you can make her case on me.

I appreciate the dialogue. What scum are you going to vote?

mastin is an odd one for me.. she is pushing cases with certainty that i cant understand at all. such as the dave push early and "assuming eyes is scum". Can someone tell me if thats normal for mastin. IF we lynch dave and he flips town mastin looks significantly worse IMO.

[dodgy56]

I can't make a believable case out of Mastin's first 10 posts, can you?
Double ISO her and me up to her 10th post and see if you can make her case on me.

Number of posts should be irrelevant. I can't make her case on you because I don't know what newbscum tells she refers to.

-TTH

quantity isnt relevant- its quality that matters. and i can that mastin is showing what she believes in her posts, but i dont see the explanation of how she got there. to me thats important.

[dodgy56]

Ok, I am definitely not getting on this Dave wagon today, the case against him is weak and borne from him trying to defend himself since the beginning. I don't see this as credible reason to vote him much less lynch him.

Eyestott and Copper will be prime targets for scum tonight so if they are town they won't be around much longer anyway and there is no point giving scum less work to do.

I really don't like how BC has coasted almost the entire first day with nothing to show and I ask that the rest of you follow me in voting him.

vote:BeastCharizard

i agree with the sentiments about eyes copper and BC. BUT BC is not the right vote today. we need a lynch that tells us something. BC's allignment doesnt give us anything other than his allignment, no links to other players, nothing. Its easier to get someone to investigate him and then go from there.

[dodgy56]

i couldnt agree more with wicked at this point.

i also think dave is spot on. we need to lynch someone. and that means getting someone to 7 votes within the next 21 hours by my count.
no lynch is a horrible result for the town.

[dodgy56]

dave and killa, please place your vote on one of main wagons. atm your votes are wasted and could lead to a no-lynch.
@dave, if you dont vote on a main wagon i will vote you because i know you know the importance of the town lynching today.

[dodgy56]

The main wagons are on people I have town reads on.

please explain your townread on tean for me?

[dodgy56]

ughh n1 is what really screwed it for the town.

[dodgy56]

Not that it matters:
Mind set on shooting dodgy-
-it seemed like he voting simply to role fish. I didn't like how he immidiately backs down from votes just because they said so.
-he pretty much had a lazy vote near the end of day 1 (not explaining, just sheeping).
-his interaction with eye was pretty dang scummy.

I should have posted more. My bad on that.

I also felt like a lot of towns acted more like scum this game. Like wow, I was surprised to see that both eye and dodgy were town.

eh to some extent this is fair. without fully understanding my experience with Eyes from another i can see why that would look bad.