Open 591: C9++, The Lunatic Ayslum (Game Over: Town Win!)

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/confirm

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VOTE: Reubus Swagrid

Because you spelt 'Rubeus' wrong and because you didn't pick 'Bilbo Swaggins'

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@DarkLightA - Why change your vote?

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He meant to vote at the top by alphabetical order, but he forgot L comes before M.

How do you know that?

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And you changed your vote back.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: DarkLightA

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@Collatz - Why change your vote?

Because you changed your vote once, and then twice for no reason.

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@Collatz, are you new to mafia games or do you have some off-site experience?

I have some off site experience.

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I would just like to say I now believe DarkLightA to be really scummy. He has shifted his vote four times since the start of the thread (not including his original RVS vote) for absoloutely no reason.

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UNVOTE:
VOTE: Collatz

Sometimes it's nice to jump around and see what sticks. I'm happy with BBT and his response—if anything it's more of a townslip if all role PMs end with the same confirm message—but I like to vote to test people, get used to it.

I don't like Collatz' response to this though. I'm an obvious target because of my vote hopping, and he's taking full advantage of this to make a case against me without questioning whether it's actually a scumtell. What merit does vote hopping this early in the game have to scum that it doesn't have to town? What would make scum more inclined to vote hop than town? I don't know, and I don't think Collatz knows either. I think he's just looking for an easy way to seem pro-town.

I'm not voting for you because I want to appear pro-town (well, I am but doesn't everyone?) I'm voting for you because I find your actions to be relatively scummy. Are they a 100% scum tell? No, but they are still scummy. It's not really the vote hopping itself that is scummy but it's the fact that none of you votes have had any reasons behind them. But that's not even the scummiest thing. What I find worst is that when I called you out for switching your vote to Alchemist21 you switched it back to Amy Farrah Fowler.

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DarLightA - I think both are likely to do so, but at the early stages of a game where there isn't much info I treated it as more of a scum move than town move. And this suspiscion was then supported by your unreasoned vote on BBT.

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Why would scum switch their vote? I don't know. But I also can't see Town switching their vote. In fact, I find it less likely for Town to switch their vote simply because the will not want to stand out in any way. As for what scum would stand to gain from it I, again, do not know. The whole thing has kind of confused me but when it happened used it as an oppurtunity to try and get some information early in the game. As for why I still think your are scummy it's because of your vote on BBT and because of the way you voted for me once I called you out on your vote hopping and voted for you because of it

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I personally think that votehopping is a great thing to do in early game, even after RVS, because it provokes reactions. That is what town seeks to gain from doing it.

Alright, but how does three votes in 22 minutes help? If there were spread out over time to give each player a chance to respond and see how they have reacted to the vote I could understand but not when it is changed that quickly.

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I'm not new to mafia. I've played it on a couple of other places but mostly I've played it IRL. I have seen people vote hop on day 1 ut they normally give a reason. I've also never seen someone votehop to one person (with no reason) and votehop back (with no reason) when someone calls them out on it all within twenty five minutes. The argument of it putting pressure on multiple people really isn't valid when the votes happened so quickly that the voted person didn't have a time to see the post, let alone respond. By votehoping so quickly he removed any kind of pressure he could have put on the people he was voting for which defeats the purpose of the hop in the first place. Am I the only one who finds this to be suspiscous?

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He didn't. That was me responding to MDs post. I don't know what motivation scum would have, but can you point out what motivation Town would have? As I said before it was early in the game and I voted for him to get more information so I could make a proper decision. Right now, I'm on the fence, but don't see the point in changing my vote as there isn't anyone else I find to be particularly scummy.

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(...) at the early stages of a game where there isn't much info I treated it as more of a scum move than town move.

Turns out, this (#91) is the first and only place he references voting me to gather information. I find it suspicious how related to my own talk of information gathering in #70

Acutally, that is incorrect. In 81 I make a reference and in 91 and 105 I say exactly that:

used it as an oppurtunity to try and get some information early in the game.

As I said before it was early in the game and I voted for him to get more information so I could make a proper decision.

As for me copying what you said in 70 that is also not true.

I don't like Collatz' response to this though. I'm an obvious target because of my vote hopping, and he's taking full advantage of this to make a case against me without questioning whether it's actually a scumtell. What merit does vote hopping this early in the game have to scum that it doesn't have to town? What would make scum more inclined to vote hop than town? I don't know, and I don't think Collatz knows either. I think he's just looking for an easy way to seem pro-town.

Throughtout your entire ISO I can't find any mention of information gathering so could you link me to the post. Otherwise this argument here doesn't hold up.

Essentially, Collatz is admitting that—in hindsight—my play wasn't particularly alignment indicative. What I'm trying to think through is whether a newer player would pick up on this in the initial stages of the game. Of course my play could have been seen as suspicious at first glance, especially in the early stages where not much else is going on. I'm thinking that newer-player-Collatz is more likely to have tried to exploit it for its suspicious look than actually challenging me due to him viewing me as scum.

I freely admit there is nothing alignment indicative in your vote hopping but it was early in the game (still RVS) and it confused me as to why you would do it. As I've said before I din't find it to be either a town move or scum move and so I treated it as a scum move and voted for you to put you under pressure and to get more information so I could get a better read. on you.

Read through his iso and you'll find that he spent the beginning talking about how it was so scummy, bla bla bla.

If you read through my ISO you will find I didn't spend the beginning called you scum. I only actually said that you were really scummy at onence (68) and I did so because I voted for you in 29 and 39 posts later you still hadn't responded to my vote and I thought outright stating I believed you to be scum would make you more likely to respond (and I was right).

So by now we've established that Collatz doesn't know how my actions were scummy. Apparently his view is that town has a stronger desire to not stand out than scum. This is the opposite of what is actually (or should actually) be the case.

I'm gonna try and explain this but it probably wont come out right. Vote hopping is a suspicious and I believe town are more likely to want to avoid being suspicous than town are. Why? Because scum players only try to appear as town and if they are caught it doesn't matter to them as much because whilst they will be out the game they have not been unjustly lynched. If a town player was accused of being scum it would feel worse for them because they are being wrongly accused. Because a town player doesn't want to be wrongly accused I do believe they are less likely to do anything suspicous. Hopefully someone can follow my reasoning. If not I'll try again later. Or maybe my reasoning is completely wrong but it is still what I thought.

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@randommidget - would you explain why you think Marcell is town?

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@randommidget - would you explain why you think Marcell is town?

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Mostly just a prod dodge.

UNVOTE: DarkLightA

I liked the way he questioned my actions and the way he has responed to the questions he has been asked by others. I'll post more later. Right now I'm going through everyone's ISO.

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VOTE: randommidget

I don't like how RM has been sheep voting and using other peoples reasons as an excuse to vote without using his own reasoning. I'm still really busy but I'll try to post more later.

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VOTE: randommidget

I don't like how RM has been sheep voting and using other peoples reasons as an excuse to vote without using his own reasoning. I'm still really busy but I'll try to post more later.

The irony is strong. Hopping votes and sheeping the largest wagon when coming under flak for less contributions.

Firstly, you aren't the largest wagon. You have 3 votes and so does Reubus Swagrid which means that at the point of me voting for you Reubus Swagrid had 3 votes (one more than you). If I was sheep voting wouldn't it make more sense for me to vote for RS and take him to four votes? Also, sheep voting implies that I don't have my own reasons for voting for you, but I do.

I think your play style is suspicious with you not even trying to scum hunt on day one where any town player should be doing their best to try and find who the scum is so that a town player doesn't get lynched. I also don't like the way you are saying you are town to CKD yet you aren't doing anything to prove that (like scumhunting as mentioned above).

I don't like how RM has been sheep voting and using other peoples reasons as an excuse to vote without using his own reasoning. I'm still really busy but I'll try to post more later.

Here, let me give you an incentive to post more.

VOTE: Collatz

I don't like this. Not because you are voting for me but because of your reason. You voted for me because I've not been able to contribute much (A 3 week deadline was changed to a 3 day deadine) yet players such as MD have contribtued much less than me and you haven't voted for them. This isn't the only time you have posted about my inactivity. After my first prod dodge you talked about my inactivity yet you had also prod dodged. Kinda hypocritical don't you think? Also, why would you vote for me because of contribution when there are much more viable suspects who are actually suspicious?

More to come later.

EDIT: Just saw you had posted again. I see you've changed your vote from me and the only thing that has changed is that BBT has started questioning you.

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Collatz continues to OMGUS me. My votes is staying.
Also

dayvig: CKD

Do you have any evidence to support this or is it just random speculation?

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Do votes carry over each day?

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Collatz - scum. Seems to be trying to fit in and be paet of the town, jumps on wagons and sheeps whilst explaining the reasoning.
Device - null, needs to do more.
Coyote - town. Came in with a lot of work and didnt go after the easiest targets. He seems genuine.
Marcrell - null-town. Little contribution but I grt vibes from his posts.
VOTE: collatz
I would like collatz or otolia to hang.

I don't like this post. Firstly saying I'm "sheeping" and then saying I'm explaining my reasons doesn't make sense as sheeping is the act of voting for someone without your own reasons but in 342 I explained my reasons. You say I'm jumping on wagons but I'm not seeing that. I've only voted for two people: DLA and you. DLA wasn't a wagon and as I explained in 342 you weren't really a wagon either. Do you have any easons to vote for me other than my supposed sheeping?

Randomidget - At first glance, his 195 looks like he's sheeping onto the Otoila wagon, but if you look carefully and think about what he's saying in his post, it makes a lot of sense. Very, VERY succinctly, he's saying that he thinks Otoila doesn't want to get wrapped up in a 1v1 with DLA that would keep the focus on him, hence the "slipping under the radar" comment. The Marcrell townread was pretty weak tbh. In 335 though, he does make another point that nobody had really brought up. Collatz vote was pretty ironic since Collatz essentially sheeped the RM wagon, and if you check Collatz' ISO you'll notice he had only been focused on DLA and not the game as a whole until that point. I think people are dismissing him pretty easily here because of how little he's posting, but he does have some good points now and then and his lurking is just typical RM play. The worst thing about his play is his overall attitdue towards CKD. He's taking offense to CKD's tone, but I don't see wher CKD has been offensive at all. It's possible scumMidget would want to push here, and at best this could turn into a pointless shitstorm between the two (given how CKD feels about RM) if the grudge continues. Apparantly something similar has happened in the past with RM and flubbernugget, though I'm not sure as what alignment. Overall, I'm pretty sure this is Town RM.

I'm on the fence in regards to Alchemist's 476. I don't like the way he keeps defending RM. He is trying to give Random Midget's posts a depth that I don't think RM would be able to (or be bothered to) come up with, especially considering his admitted uselessness on D1 (Note: Alchemsit also backed RM up on this point).

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You might be right ehoever daid collatz wasnt scummy. I just remembered that he reminds me of kelbris who ends up in similar situations.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: otolia

This here is pretty a pretty weak reason to change a vote, especially considering how much he believes I am scum.

Do votes carry over each day?

As I've mentioned before I haven't played on MS before so I wasn't sure how it worked. In another game I'm in I assumed they carried over and they didn't so I asked here to check if it was just for that version of the game or if it was just how it worked here.

In 103, Collatz is either ignoring or forgetting I actually responded to DLA's vote on me

I didn't forget that you responded to DLA's vote on you I just decided not to mention it because I didn't like how you gave him an excuse for voting for you before he responded to my question.

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You might be right ehoever daid collatz wasnt scummy. I just remembered that he reminds me of kelbris who ends up in similar situations.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: otolia

This here is pretty a pretty weak reason to change a vote, especially considering how much he believes I am scum.

You're not in my top 2 (Randommidget & BBT). When I voted you in D1 shortly before I did a re-read as an incentive to keep your promises to town. Considering there isn't a lot of people who can say that this game, it shouldn't worry you that much.

So why do you feel like I'm persecuting you ?

I haven't said anything about you persecuting me so I'm lost here. The only way this makes sense to me is if this isn't aimed at me and you accidently quoted me.

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I haven't said anything about you persecuting me so I'm lost here. The only way this makes sense to me is if this isn't aimed at me and you accidently quoted me.

I don't believe you're scum. So there is no : "especially considering how much he believes I am scum". Unless I'm misunderstanding things. [/quote]

In that quote I wasn't talking about you I was talking about randommidget and how I find it weird that he suddenly says that I might not be scum even though he has previously been adamant on my alignment.

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Part of your argument against DLA was the player he voted didn't have time to respond. Clearly that wasn't the case since I responded, and now you're saying you know I responded, so at some point you lied - either to me or to DLA.

My posts about giving the people time to respond (101) was a response to CKD and not really a "case" against DLA. As I've said before, I didn't have a case against DLA and I voted for him for reasons mentioned in my ISO. I also don't see how I have lied as your response to DLA wasn't what I'd consider a response someone wants when they are vote hopping and you don't vote hope for one response and then shift your vote again. I see vote hopping as shifting your vote around relatively quickly but still putting the voted player under continued pressure to see how they respond. There was no continued pressure with DLA's vote on you.

If this doesn't make sense I'll rephrase it when I wake up.

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VOTE: randommidget

He said he'd try and scumhunt in D2 but I'm not really saying that. He also seems to be unable to hold his opinions for more than a day if it seems that other people are questioning them.

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way to comment on current stuff.

I didn't say anything more because I din't have much time and I forgot to include the vote in my last few posts. I'll post more on the 'current' stuff later.

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VOTE: MnemonicDevice

I'm voting for him because my vote on RandomMidget wasn't really doing anything. Whilst RM is a scum read of mine there isn't a chance of him bebeing lynched toDay so I don't want to waste my vote. In MD's ISO there isn't a whole lote of contribution. Mostly it's one line answers with very little reasoning behind it. Just a couple of examples:

@BBT: Thanks for letting me know you are town with #499
I feel that BBT is unable to commit to what he is saying. That is all. As shown above tho I now know that BBT is town.

No reasoning to back up him calling BBT town and it's kind of weird how he says BBT is unable to commit (something scummy) yet he says BBT is town.

Using both the phrases, "if I had to guess" and "I would say" seem like unnecessary wording, to imply doubt, which is fine, but having both of them right after each other seems wishy-washy

This seems forced especially since to me this is just natural speech/text and a very minor thing to pick up.

Basically MD is scummy to me as he hasn't done much (or anything) in the way of helping town and he doesn't appear to be actively scumhunting. Although, this is kind of hypocritical considering how I've not been very active or contirbuting much either. Anyway, now I'm just waitng for RM or Alchemist to accuse me of sheep voting

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Sorry, I've got to prod dodge. I'll make a proper post when I wake up tomorrow.

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I am a 1-Shot Vigilante and last night I killed Alchemist21. It's a shame that he was town but a the time I believed that he was a scummy player and other players (BBT and RC) both also believed him to be suspicious. Anyway, now that's out the way I'm just gonna say sorry for my recent inactivity, I'm going to try to change that, and that I can't believe I didn't see that Marcrell had already been lynched when I last posted.

This doesn't have to be the start of a mass claim. This is more me shedding a small amount of light on the situation.

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RandomMidget - Who did you investigate on Day 1 and who did you investigate on Day 2?