Open 591: C9++, The Lunatic Ayslum (Game Over: Town Win!)

[Alchemist21]

/confirm

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Randomidget

[Alchemist21]

He meant to vote at the top by alphabetical order, but he forgot L comes before M.

[Alchemist21]

I repeat myself eh :

VOTE: mnemonicdevice because he replaced in a game in my spot.

I've played another C9++ a long time ago when it was still a nightstart. The game itself was so shitty, it became good again. Town won accidentally. It's only 10 short pages so you can read it fast. Please let this game be better.

Also I'm in BEAUTIFUL Europe, land of the only handsome men (like me) on Earth.

Not true. I live in America.

[Alchemist21]

@Collatz, are you new to mafia games or do you have some off-site experience?

[Alchemist21]

^This guy knows.

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Reubus Swagrid

Because you spelt 'Rubeus' wrong and because you didn't pick 'Bilbo Swaggins'

Lol, you're one of the first people to notice

VOTE: Marcrell

Interesting avatar

Yeah. Was actually suggested by Nachomamma in my first Newbie. Can't quote because locked and don't feel like working. I'm sticking with it.

vote randomidget

trust me, it will be better if we do this now.

I feel like I remember the name randommidget. Can't remember if I've played with him.

My vote on Alchemist was also semi-serious. I'd like a response to the second part. Usually offering some sort of reason, even if useless, is better for town.

Because I RVS players I've played with before. In this game I've played with BBT, Amy, and random before.

[Alchemist21]

I just saw midget as town, one shot vig a person who got a guilty on scum....because he wasnt reading the thread.

if all things constant and someone has to die today, it should be him.

Holy shit. This is enough to make me stop teasing Anen.

[Alchemist21]

I found it. Open 558 Hope plus 1. Lost in lylo when I CCed scum claiming and was lynched.

What is this game? Doesn't look like what the others have been referring to RE:random

I think this might be the game he played with RM and not the one where RM was a vig. Earlier Marcell was trying to remember if he's played with RM.

[Alchemist21]

@DarkLightA : That's a pretty weak vote. He was informed but didn't read his PM that carefully. Nothing to get your panties in a bunch !

Before I catch up, this post is horrible.

What was bad about 64?

[Alchemist21]

I want to point out that I, the person whom the vote was switched to, did in fact respond to the vote switch before it was moved back.

[Alchemist21]

I also want to know why Rubeus thinks it's scummy, particularly since he seems to be shrugging off his own personal experience in favor of voting Collatz.

[Alchemist21]

^RE: the last paragraph

I can understand your reasoning of Town trying to not be suspicious, and it's probably true that most Townies think twice about something to make sure it's not taken the wrong way, but it's also more likely that Town will do something suspicious and not care than scum will because scum are the ones trying not to get caught, and are the ones who want to avoid attracting attention to themselves.

As far as Collatz goes, I think this is coming fro him being newer to online Mafia, and maybe even more specifically new to MS.

[Alchemist21]

^Are you saying that even though you liked their posts they're still null to you?

[Alchemist21]

Otoila are you Townreading or Scumreading DLA right now?

[Alchemist21]

What I've gathered so far minus null reads that have nothing of interest

Alchemist21- Probably my most sure townread at the moment for genuine sounding posts and #131

DarkLightA- Analysis is good, slight townread

Lucky2u- Innocent Child

CDK- Running with a policy vote until I set off his “spidey senses”, unsure as to why. I explained that last time I was faced with a situation like this the person was actually town, though that’s 1 out of 2 games on MS I’ve completed, which isn’t enough for me to actually read him either way, though in the situation that I provided I initially scumread him on D1, doing so helped move the game along and generally elevated our understanding of each other. I would also like to note in that game I was scumread by scum after scumreading that particular townie on D1. If I

had

to choose an alignment at the moment I would honestly be leaning scum, but at the moment I only find you a suspicious nullread

Random Migdet- I have no idea what to make of your brief ISO, null for now

Rest are nulls but without a doubt more is going to come to light, do with this as you will. I have a suspicion that some of the less posty players are more likely scum than CDK but we'll see

There are two things that bug me about this post.

The first is that I'm his surest Townread. Usually people who haven't played with me before null or lean-scum on me, or at best mildly townread me. It's usually scum or people I've played with before that put me as a top townread this early. Even I don't think my posts have been that Towny so far, so I want to know some specifics of what you like about my 131 (I'll accept the tone read as just that, but citing a post warrants specifics).

The other thing is that he's referencing his own past experience in regards to his vote on Collatz, but he seems to just shrug off his experience in favor of the vote, then when he gets called on it he unvotes. I'm not even sure if he's giving that scum-lean-but-officially-a-null-read status in this post to CDK or Collatz. The main question here is, "If he's seen what Collatz did from Town before, what made it scummy this time enough to warrant that vote?"

VOTE: Reubus Swaggrid

[Alchemist21]

The first is that I'm his surest Townread. Usually people who haven't played with me before null or lean-scum on me, or at best mildly townread me. It's usually scum or people I've played with before that put me as a top townread this early.

I'm also suspicious of Reubus, but I really don't like this argument.

Let's just see what he has to say about it.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: otolia
He's afraid of getting into a tunnel this early as he is scum. Seems to be trying to slip back under the radar.
Also Alchemist is your avi kirito?

It's always been Kirito.

[Alchemist21]

What I've gathered so far minus null reads that have nothing of interest

Alchemist21- Probably my most sure townread at the moment for genuine sounding posts and #131

DarkLightA- Analysis is good, slight townread

Lucky2u- Innocent Child

CDK- Running with a policy vote until I set off his “spidey senses”, unsure as to why. I explained that last time I was faced with a situation like this the person was actually town, though that’s 1 out of 2 games on MS I’ve completed, which isn’t enough for me to actually read him either way, though in the situation that I provided I initially scumread him on D1, doing so helped move the game along and generally elevated our understanding of each other. I would also like to note in that game I was scumread by scum after scumreading that particular townie on D1. If I

had

to choose an alignment at the moment I would honestly be leaning scum, but at the moment I only find you a suspicious nullread

Random Migdet- I have no idea what to make of your brief ISO, null for now

Rest are nulls but without a doubt more is going to come to light, do with this as you will. I have a suspicion that some of the less posty players are more likely scum than CDK but we'll see

There are two things that bug me about this post.

The first is that I'm his surest Townread. Usually people who haven't played with me before null or lean-scum on me, or at best mildly townread me. It's usually scum or people I've played with before that put me as a top townread this early. Even I don't think my posts have been that Towny so far, so I want to know some specifics of what you like about my 131 (I'll accept the tone read as just that, but citing a post warrants specifics).

The other thing is that he's referencing his own past experience in regards to his vote on Collatz, but he seems to just shrug off his experience in favor of the vote, then when he gets called on it he unvotes. I'm not even sure if he's giving that scum-lean-but-officially-a-null-read status in this post to CDK or Collatz. The main question here is, "If he's seen what Collatz did from Town before, what made it scummy this time enough to warrant that vote?"

VOTE: Reubus Swaggrid

If you were scum #131 could well have been a continued push on Collatz. Answering your question, I didn't think it was scummy, I was more interested to see who would latch onto my actions and look for motives as to why.

randommidget seems to refuse to explain why he has townread Marcell, I don't understand why he is playing like he is

As for the Otolia vs DarkLightA
I was leaning Otilia town but regarding the aggressive nature of his defence I need to rethink that now.
But seriously "peace offering"? Getting into grudges never seemed to pay off for me.
I don't feel right townreading DarkLight anymore. He was exploring avenues for a place to put his vote, though through this post Otolia did make a good point here I'm not as sure if DL has a pro-town motive anymore, then again I wasn't very sure at all to begin with.

Considering Collatz qualifies as a MS newbie, one could argue that DarkLightA is grasping at anything he can. I've got nothing better to do with my vote so VOTE: DarkLightA

what post do you feel like Dark is "grasping" at straws?

#70 and #108. Especially this quote :

I'm an obvious target because of my vote hopping, and he's taking full advantage of this to make a case against me without questioning whether it's actually a scumtell.

It's like he was waiting for someone to call him on it so he could pounce and start his case.

Ok, I understand your reasoning for liking my 131. I still don't get why you seemingly ignored your past experience when you voted Collatz though. You say you didn't see it as scummy, but then again you also said if you had to choose you would say scum. There must have been some hint of scumminess for you to think that way despite your previous experience, right?

[Alchemist21]

@RC, my vote is a tool and weapon to use as I see fit.

[Alchemist21]

In all the games I've played with RM, the ones where he wasn't lynched D1 were the ones where several players had prior experience with him. Look at my join date. He's been saying the same thing about not being useful on D1 since then.

[Alchemist21]

In all the games I've played with RM, the ones where he wasn't lynched D1 were the ones where several players had prior experience with him. Look at my join date. He's been saying the same thing about not being useful on D1 since then.

That doesn't discount the fact that the little he has been doing is scummy, and that meta is a null tell.

You mention Marcrell as scummy in your post, but then don't mention him when it comes to voting. How does he stand compared to RM/RS in your eyes? What about me?

I would go something along the lines of..

RM>RS>Marcel>>DLA>>Rest of game

Considering the whole controversy with RM and presumably his meta, though I haven't looked into it, do you not think he might just be town not paying very much attention?

Meta should not be an excuse as I already said. Some players are less active, but its not like the few posts he has made are town tells. He has about ten posts and most of them are scummy. He is sheeping, concentrated on self-image and seemingly attacking players for at best null tells.

They're not scummy posts coming from RM. It may be all null, but a policy lynch here really isn't going to do anything but give scum an easy wagon to push.

[Alchemist21]

They're not scummy posts coming from RM. It may be all null, but a policy lynch here really isn't going to do anything but give scum an easy wagon to push.

What part is null?

The part where a third of his posts are concerned about CKD and the whole policy lynch thing?
The sheep vote on collatz?
The vote on otolia for what is at best a vote for a null tell?

Even if we are going to go "oh well he always lurks so lets ignore him" those are still legitimate tells. Plus is he normally this non-game related? In almost a week he has made maybe three posts that can be called game related.

Out of curiosity... for those ignoring RM are you just essentially saying "well if he is scum I am willing to just give him a free pass?" Maybe I don't have enough experience around RM, but I don't really think he is a juggernaut as town starting D2 that would justify giving him a free pass. What if he is scum? We just let him have next to no interactions and are cool with it or something?

It's null because I've only seen his Town game. I've seen him sheep and be detached like this in the past. I've seen him live past D1, and yeah he's no Town juggernaut, but this is not a good D1 wagon by any means. I would look for contradictions in what he says or run VCA to see if he's scum. Policy Lynching him D1 doesn't help Town, and if it hasn't given him incentive to change as a player by now, it's not going to this time.

[Alchemist21]

They're not scummy posts coming from RM. It may be all null, but a policy lynch here really isn't going to do anything but give scum an easy wagon to push.

What part is null?

The part where a third of his posts are concerned about CKD and the whole policy lynch thing?

His first posts were about the last game where he made a pretty bad play. I don't get what you're seeing as alignment indicative here.

The sheep vote on collatz?

He's done this as Town. In O584 he sheeped an early vote on Lia for the reasoning of "trying to look town."

The vote on otolia for what is at best a vote for a null tell?

Basically see above. I can try to look back for original reasoning from him like this, but it's on the same level as voting someone for trying to look town with their questions. Also, from my perspective you're pushing RM for a series of null tells.

Even if we are going to go "oh well he always lurks so lets ignore him" those are still legitimate tells. Plus is he normally this non-game related? In almost a week he has made maybe three posts that can be called game related.

Out of curiosity... for those ignoring RM are you just essentially saying "well if he is scum I am willing to just give him a free pass?" Maybe I don't have enough experience around RM, but I don't really think he is a juggernaut as town starting D2 that would justify giving him a free pass. What if he is scum? We just let him have next to no interactions and are cool with it or something?

Responses are in bold. One last thing - I can understand you see him as scummy since you've never played with him before, but as someone who's played several times with him and even spectated a game of his, I can tell you this happens to him a lot. What you're seeing is nothing out of the ordinary for Town randomidget.

[Alchemist21]

I'm not trying to be a dick. Even that allegation I don't really understand. I've try to be very forthright about all my opinions, especially when I am town. Could you be more specific? Do you just want me to do a summary for you?

At the moment, I think Marcrell needs a ton more attention paid to him.
As to you and DLA, I don't find your arguments compelling and have a comfortable townread on DLA at the moment.
As to Collatz, I suspect he's town although I disagree with the direction he's going with his reads.
As to ckd and BBT, I liked their contributions so far and am anxious to hear more from them. I'd give ckd a thumbs up for town, BBT is way too early to call.
As to Reubus, I think he's misleading and potentially a good candidate for lynching today.

Not a lot to say about randomidget, mnemonic, Llama and Alchemist. Alchemist, random and mnemonic need to contribute more. Llama just joined us.

I've addressed all of these things in one way or another in my posts, so I dispute the idea that some of my analysis is not "up to par with the rest". What specifically am I glossing over?

You aren't glossing over anything in particular. What I meant precisely is : when you answer things in such a format (list of quote), not everything you say has the same value nor the same reach. I can't say I like the format you use since there isn't a lot of formatting and it's hard to read the intent of your post. It's more a question of playstyle than content though.

This post I don't understand. What do you mean "not everything has the same value or the same reach?"

[Alchemist21]

What you're seeing is nothing out of the ordinary for Town randomidget.

Is it out of the ordinary for scum randomidget?

The fact that a third of his posts have nothing to do with this game and are basically trying to look good in retrospect instead of in this game to me shows someone who is more concerned with appearance than needs to be. Scum tend to be more mindful of how the game is viewing them than town is because their point is staying alive so will notice and try to shut down those type of things.

The second... its just your way of saying RM is a naturally scummy player? Why give him a pass in that situation?

Let me break down the Otilia vote though for you.

He's afraid of getting into a tunnel this early as he is scum. Seems to be trying to slip back under the radar.

I don't know if he is talking about Otil tunneling or being tunneled on for the first part. Afraid of being tunneled is not alignment indicative. No one wants someone to be voting them and not listen to what they are saying. Afraid of actually DOING that is more town than anything else because its fairly antiproductive and having the selfawareness to change your moves.

I think the "slip under the radar" is him calling Otila scum because he is saying "wait I think we are both town doing the exact same thing?" I don't know for sure since like all of RMs posts, its not explained really. Its also ironic since RM is just trying to fly under the radar, something that is apparently half of the reason he is voting Otil for.

I don't know if it's out of the ordinary for scum rm because I've never seen scum rm. I took his concern for the other game as not wanting to be teased for a stupid mistake he made as a vig, prompted by the statement that I tease Aneninen for a stupid mistake he made as a vig. Maybe he is concerned with peoples' opininon of him for that, but what makes that aligenment indicative and not personality indicative?

And yes, I'm saying RM is a naturally scummy player. Why give him a pass? Because if he's not acting out of the ordinary, then he has the same chance as being scum as anyone else. You may as well be random lynching if your going to lynch him based on that.

I will, however, concede that you have a valid point in the "slip under the radar" thing. RM is lurky (in fact the game I saw him last the longest in was his lurkiest game I've ever seen) but it does call into question why exactly he's calling out Otoila. This is something that may be worth pushing.

[Alchemist21]

Not at all. I'm being pedantic.

It's not even close that everyone is OK with lynching Reubus.

A few people have expressed they would be OK with it. Nothing more than that. I mean, I don't even think he is the leading wagon.

You're right. I think it's just struck me to the extent that it looks more significant than it actually is. I'm just saying that I find it bothersome that he's being mentioned as a compromise. It seems that many are in the stage of "wouldn't mind him being lynched" and I'm wondering whether that is likely to happen if scum is being targeted. By all means, Reubus might be scum, and his play is scummy imo, but I don't know about the whole atmosphere around him.

If RS is scum, I wouldn't expect much resistance from scum unless a more serious wagon forms on him. Even then there may only be slight resistance if the scum aren't really sure how to derail the wagon and maintain a pro-town appearance

[Alchemist21]

unvote

vote Reubus

my spidey sense is tingling.

Why didn't you explain your vote here with more than just "spidey sense?"

[Alchemist21]

unvote

vote Reubus

my spidey sense is tingling.

Why didn't you explain your vote here with more than just "spidey sense?"

actually the more I think about it, the stranger and out of place this post is. I just finished doing a giant wall of words and you have chosen this to comment on? you have posted several times since I made this vote. WHY NOW?! are you asking about. lead me through the thought process behind this.

Because I saw those posts and thought they seemed genuine enough, but I didn't really remember much of what you had posted before. I ISO'd you to see if they were all like that, and noticed that vote which caught my attention. I aksed why you didn't explain and not what your reason was because you were the first vote on the wagon; you should have given a reason then, and if I aksed you for it now you could just hide behind giving a reason someone stated after you.

[Alchemist21]

[quote="In post 373
Because I saw those posts and thought they seemed genuine enough, but I didn't really remember much of what you had posted before. I ISO'd you to see if they were all like that, and noticed that vote which caught my attention. I aksed why you didn't explain and not what your reason was because you were the first vote on the wagon; you should have given a reason then, and if I aksed you for it now you could just hide behind giving a reason someone stated after you.

okay, but you posted like 3 posts after my vote of him. and never said anything. the timing is strange.[/quote]

I missed ot the first time through and noticed it on reread. You still haven't answered the question.

[Alchemist21]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Reubus

Alchemist, reads please?

Still think Reubus is scum. I think he's handling the pressure well, but there's nothing from him that would reverse my read on him.

I didn't particularly like LlamaFluff's posts about RM. He was pretty adamant about pushing that read because it would be a good playstyle for scum despite my telling him how often RM does this as Town. Coupled with his massclaim idea though, it's more likely that he's just the type to act more based on theory rather than practice, at least in the early game.

Otoila is a difficult one for me. There were some things I disliked earlier (can't remember what they were right now) that were mixed in with some posts I liked better. I'm starting to think he was simply caught up in a shitstorm following DLA vs Collatz.

Anyone in particular you want me to look at?

[Alchemist21]

That may take a while. A lot of people are null to me atm, so I'll need to go back through their posts and see what I can gather for you.

[Alchemist21]

Where have you ever seen votes carry over to the next Day?

[Alchemist21]

How do we know there is a doctor in this setup?

We don't. If there were one, he'd be protecting Lucky, and a scum nightkill would be wasted if they tried attacking him with a doc protecting him. It's basic scum strategy that you don't attack the only confTown player if there could be a doc in the game.

Hmm... Maybe I'll have a look at random today.

I owe BBT a reads list, and I'm getting that typed up, but on rereading the thread I'm reading RM as Town.

[Alchemist21]

Here's the reads list I owe BBT.

Townreads first:

CKD - On rereading the thread, I saw he caught a lot of things I didn't see the first time around. I like that he's pushing people on the things he catches but he's not eager to just join the first wagon he sees. He's showing the ability to see arguments from both sides such as when he question's Llama's push on RM, or when he corrects BBT on calling Misrep on Otoila towards the EoD. I'm confident CKD is Town.

Randomidget - At first glance, his 195 looks like he's sheeping onto the Otoila wagon, but if you look carefully and think about what he's saying in his post, it makes a lot of sense. Very, VERY succinctly, he's saying that he thinks Otoila doesn't want to get wrapped up in a 1v1 with DLA that would keep the focus on him, hence the "slipping under the radar" comment. The Marcrell townread was pretty weak tbh. In 335 though, he does make another point that nobody had really brought up. Collatz vote was pretty ironic since Collatz essentially sheeped the RM wagon, and if you check Collatz' ISO you'll notice he had only been focused on DLA and not the game as a whole until that point. I think people are dismissing him pretty easily here because of how little he's posting, but he does have some good points now and then and his lurking is just typical RM play. The worst thing about his play is his overall attitdue towards CKD. He's taking offense to CKD's tone, but I don't see wher CKD has been offensive at all. It's possible scumMidget would want to push here, and at best this could turn into a pointless shitstorm between the two (given how CKD feels about RM) if the grudge continues. Apparantly something similar has happened in the past with RM and flubbernugget, though I'm not sure as what alignment. Overall, I'm pretty sure this is Town RM.

RedCoyote - His entrance post at 170 seemed to have Townreads on DLA, Collatz, and scumreads on Otoila and Marcrell. I was reading DLA and Collatz the same way when it was happening, but on my reread I looked more carefully and got the opposite reads on DLA and Collatz (I'll explain this later in my list.). I may be misjudging his read on Otoila in that post since he asks Otoila to join a Marcrell wagon in 176. I disagree with the second point against Marcrell. I think that regardless of DLA's alignment, his vote wasn't intended to be as a serious scumread, and I think people overreacted to it and it turned into a mini shitstorm. His 3rd point against Marcrell was understandable, and Marcrell's CKD vote is questionable, but looking at his posts I thought Marcrell was just someone who's nitpicky about RVS votes. Then 202 happened where Marcrell admits to treating the CKD vote as a poliicy lynch and not just one vote, which validates the point against Marcrell here. I'm still not sure why RC asked Otoila to join the Marcrell wagon. Either I misjudged the read there, or RC wanted to see if one scumread would readily jump onto the other scumread's wagon which I feel would be Town motivated as he would be trying to get the two to form some kind of association to better read them either then or later in the game. I say RedCoyote is Town.

BBT - There are two main things I liked here: I liked how he opposed the D1 RM lynch because of how the wagon could easily be pushed, the low usefulness it would give the Town, and wanting to lynch his stronger reads. I also liked how towards the end of Day he stepped up and rallied votes for the RS lynch. Similar to my CKD read, I'm reading him more for his motivations than his actual content. I see a guy who wants to find scum and hang their ass. There is one thing I noticed in his posts that could be scum projecting, but I think it's more likely Town reading something that's not there. He saw what he thought could be coaching Reubus and he saw this from both RC and myself, and these both came after BBT's 243, which could be BBT coaching RM. I don't think the BBT-RM scumpair is likely though given that I read them both as Town, and it's more likely that BBT just misread our posts here. I read BBT as Town.

Now the scumreads:

Collatz: During the RVS he voted DLA for his vote switching, but when he's questioned about it, he thinks it's likely to come from scum amd Town. LATER ON THE SAME PAGE he says he doesn't know why scum would switch their votes, but doesn't know why Town would do it either. In 103, Collatz is either ignoring or forgetting I actually responded to DLA's vote on me, and he continues pushing the point that DLA's new vote target didn't have time to respond to the vote. Again in 105, he can't see either Town or scum doing what DLA did. In 130, the idea that Collatz was just trying to pressure DLA is questionable and possibly a cop-out feeding off DLA's claimed playstyle, but it's not impossible that he did that. His last paragraph in 130 is 100% noob logic and his posts make it clear he's a noob, but he's also claimed some prior off-site experience. (Given his latest post about carry-over votes, I agree with BBT that it's likely he's trying to play the noob card here.) Once Collatz' read has been shot down by a few players and he backs down, we don't see him again until he sheeps the RM wagon.

DLA- I get that he could be a player who throws votes around to get reactions. I don't get how he can see himself as an obvious target and then think it's scummy that a noob like Collatz would jump on it. DLA sees Collatz' argument collapsing under the pressure and says it's a sign of his noobishness. It makes sense to try getting Collatz to explain why DLA's actions come from scum (CKD also does this in 113), but post 119 raises questions about DLA's stance here. When Collatz realizes what DLA did wasn't alignment indicative and backs down, DLA questions if a noob would have picked up on that by now. I thought the whole point of DLA pushing Collatz to explain why it's scummy was to get him to see it wasn't actually scummy, and it looks like DLA isn't dropping the scumread just because he convinced noobCollatz to see his point of view. Then in 132, he thinks Collatz is coming up with a retroactive explanation, but seems to just shrug it off. He's easing off on Collatz for willingness to cooperate. DLA doesn't really loosen his grip on Collatz for realizing he was wrong, but takes off the pressure in the same post that he says Collatz is retroactively explaining. DLA is acting oppositely of how Town should have acted in the situation. Also, later when he accused Otoila of setting himself up to jump off a wagon, Otoila pointed out that DLA did the same thing with Collatz, and I agree that DLA was, over time, setting himself up to drop his Collatz read. In 188 DLA does make some good points when he states the difference between Otoila's play and his own, and it's clear how someone could have seen Otoila's interaction as more of a shit throwing contest. That plus how scummy Otoila came out in their interaction gave me some doubt that DLA is scum, but I still think he's scum.

*I think it could be that one of DLA/Collatz is scum, but I think it's very likely there was scum distancing here. If they're scum together then I can esaily see the scenario of scumDLA doing something early that scumCollatz thought looked scummy and voted him to distance, and DLA pushing back, then both of then DLA jumping off the Collatz wagon rather than continue pushing and hard bus, while Collatz jumping off the wagon when he sees DLA being Townread and doesn't want to keep suspicion on his buddy. I did something pretty similar in my first scumgame on MS, so it's very possilbe to see noobscumCollatz distance early on scumDLA.

Otoila- In 144 he says DLA is grasping at straws with his push on Collatz. I can see him getting the impression, but given how Collatz acted first and how DLA was backing off, I think it's wrong. Otoila also made a fair point against DLA when he DLA accused him of distancing from his vote but DLA was doing the same with Collatz. It's in 184 that a couple things ping on Otoila. One is the statement in 167 that DLA was deflecting 168. The explanation given in 190 makes no sense, because having the question answered as a post is being made doesn't explain how the deflection accusation could come before the deflected post. The other thing that pings is the peace offering. I can understand a TownOtoila not wanting to get caught in more of a frustrating shitstorm with DLA, so it's something that could come from Town or scum Otoila. It could also be scumOtoila trying to get out of the spotlight. If there were just the peace offering thing, I would lean Town here. The whole deflection thing makes me think it's scumOtoila bullshitting an argument and then trying to save face afterwards.

Then there are some null reads.

Marcrell- Marcrell looks like someone who's nitpicky about RVS votes, and I think that's more likely to come from Town that wants to get early reads, but him treating CKD's vote as a lynch attempt and not a single vote makes me unsure about that.

MneumonicDevice- I still have no clue about MneumonicDevice. He's just been a non-presence in the game.

I would like to see Collatz, DLA, and Otoila hang, preferably in that order. I want to have Marcrell and MneumonicDevice figured out this Day phase.

@Mneumonic, I want to see some of your thoughts on the game.

Marcrell's still on V/LA so I'll have to wait for his return.

VOTE: Collatz

[Alchemist21]

405 - I want this update, Alch. You look like a very good option for a lynch toDay.

410 - Updated reads from you aswell, Random. You also look lik an excellent lynch for toDay.

434 - Mnemonic, it wasn't an inconsistency, as I pointed out. 421 is sarcasm, not deflection. What is it a deflection onto/from? What is the scum motivation for doing so?

438 - RC, your argument for not wanting to lynch Otolia in this post doesn't make much sense for me. Firstly, you assume that Otolia plays optimally as scum. Secondly, you said you didn't think scum would push the Random wagon. Why would scum not try to push one of the leading wagons?


449 - RC, how does RS' flip make you think Alch is town? You realise that, to scum, Reubus was a townie...right? I also don't see Alchemist's consistent and aggressive questioning. In fact, I don't see a whole lot from Alch at all.

Alch, would you agree with RC's assessment of your play?

I somewhat agree. The consistent questioning part makes sense, and I ask a lot of questions as part of my playstyle, but I don't think I've been aggressive this game. I was more firm in my opinion of why RM was a bad D1 lynch than in my questioning, but even then I wouldn't call it aggressive.

[Alchemist21]

It was obviously a joke.

If I had to guess, I would say

CKD was annoying him and he wishes he had a dayvig.

Now, forget about this and actually contribute to the game.

This post seemed minorly scummy to me, because of the bold wording, it feels to wishy-washy.

I don't know how you see this as wishy-washy.

[Alchemist21]

So here we are with someone who was under scrutiny for being a huge liability who suddenly finds that the appropriate response to demands he start playing decently is to say a huge fuck-you to everyone and

joke

dayvig. So you would say he isn't concerned about being lynche, right ? So why in his next post does does he write this :

Alchemist - I think he is probably town. Don't really know why.
BBT -

the fact that he is more concerned with stopping a mislynch than finding one makes me think town.

DLA - whilst his early play felt good, some of his play has felt odd recently. I'm starting to lean null-scum. More on this coming.
Otolia - entire play feels off. I just think that this could be a clash of play styles, but I don't see town motivation in his posting
CKD - I don't see scum being this much of a dickhead. VI.
Sorry, I have to go, will finish this later.

Note that he never finished his list ... Described himself as the potential mislynch and appears to be thankful to BBT for taking his sides. The gap between an act that can only be described as stupid (the dayvig attempt) and the calculated attempt to buddy BBT cannot be the result of a town-aligned player.

VOTE: Randommidget

This is what an RM reads list usually looks like. I don't know if he's concerned about being lynched or not (he's probably used to it by now), but he also thanked me for "being his knight in shining armor" after my interaction with Llamfluff. Do you think he was making a calculated attempt at buddying me too?

[Alchemist21]

Alchemist, do you think a scum team consisting of myself, Otolia and Collatz is likely?

Do votes carry over each day?

Trying too hard to play the newbie card.

Dislike this.

I don't like this post.

I think you and Collatz is a very likely possibility. Given Otoila's interaction with you, I think it's more likely you and him are opposite alignments, but the two of you being scum together isn't impossible.

[Alchemist21]

We hang Collatz because he's the most likely scum. Then we hang DLA, especially if Collatz flips scum due to their interaction, and see his flip. A DLA scumflip would slightly raise the odds of townOtoila, but if I don't get a scumread on anyone else, then it's probably Otoila.

[Alchemist21]

People say, "If I had to guess, I'd say...," all the time to express having an opinion nof which they can't be certain. There's no wishy-washy to it.

[Alchemist21]

You might be right ehoever daid collatz wasnt scummy. I just remembered that he reminds me of kelbris who ends up in similar situations.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: otolia

This here is pretty a pretty weak reason to change a vote, especially considering how much he believes I am scum.

Do votes carry over each day?

As I've mentioned before I haven't played on MS before so I wasn't sure how it worked. In another game I'm in I assumed they carried over and they didn't so I asked here to check if it was just for that version of the game or if it was just how it worked here.

In 103, Collatz is either ignoring or forgetting I actually responded to DLA's vote on me

I didn't forget that you responded to DLA's vote on you I just decided not to mention it because I didn't like how you gave him an excuse for voting for you before he responded to my question.

Part of your argument against DLA was the player he voted didn't have time to respond. Clearly that wasn't the case since I responded, and now you're saying you know I responded, so at some point you lied - either to me or to DLA.

[Alchemist21]

@BBT: Thanks for letting me know you are town with #499

Using both the phrases, "if I had to guess" and "I would say" seem like unnecessary wording, to imply doubt, which is fine, but having both of them right after each other seems wishy-washy

My question to you is, who the fuck cares? What was scummy about BBT statement? Explain to me EXACTLY what you think BBT was talking about in his statement and why it was scummy.

I feel that BBT is unable to commit to what he is saying. That is all. As shown above tho I now know that BBT is town.[/quote]

He accused you of not commiting as well since your scumreading him and not voting him. I feel like you're backing down and giving him a pass just so you don't have to commit.

[Alchemist21]

EBWOP: *you're

[Alchemist21]

I'm busy today so I'm just posting some general thoughts here until I can get more in depth with the DLA vs Otoila. The last few pages have made me more sure they don't share an alignment, but until I really look at it I won't be sure which one is scum.

Mneumonic's responses made me lean scum on him, so whichever of the two above seems Town to me will probably get dropped from my lynch order, and Mneumonic put under the one that's left.

Marcrell, I need your thoughts on the game, both for overall on D1 and for the current game state.

Otoila, I need you to show me what you're seeing differently in BBT's play, and I mean SHOW not TELL because I haven't noticed a change and if you can't show me why you think that I'll assume you're talking out of your ass.

[Alchemist21]

This post by Otolia is mindblowing:

Spoiler: Otolia

You might be right ehoever daid collatz wasnt scummy. I just remembered that he reminds me of kelbris who ends up in similar situations.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: otolia

This here is pretty a pretty weak reason to change a vote, especially considering how much he believes I am scum.

You're not in my top 2 (Randommidget & BBT). When I voted you in D1 shortly before I did a re-read as an incentive to keep your promises to town. Considering there isn't a lot of people who can say that this game, it shouldn't worry you that much.

So why do you feel like I'm persecuting you ?

You might be right ehoever daid collatz wasnt scummy. I just remembered that he reminds me of kelbris who ends up in similar situations.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: otolia

Any reasoning behind your vote or did you just realize that because everyone is listing me as scum, I would potentially be an easy for a lowlife like you ?

[truncated]

Otolia appears to be responding to the same post twice in two separate quotes(?) and also calls RandomMidget a "lowlife". Ad hominems don't help a case.

BBT, why did you start posting like RedCoyote ? I prefered when you were obnoxious and couldn't keep your words. At least that was easy to spot.

This is also strange. To my eyes it seems like Otolia is saying (if indirectly) that BBT's playstyle change makes him look less scummy, and labeling that as a negative thing. Has Otolia decided that BBT is scum regardless of future posts?

I'm gonna park my vote here for the time being as no one seems particularly keen on Alchemist yet.

VOTE: Otolia

Woah. I didn't thought you could be this nonsensical DLA. O.O

In your first post, I'm addressing 2 different persons and thus I quote 2 different part of the discussion. Oh and lowlife == scum. There was a misunderstanding that we cleared in #512. So your argument kinda falls flat there.

As for the second part, I already consider BBT scummy. I've posted why numerous times (hint: he contradicts himself all the time) but nobody seems interested in seeing him as anything but town. And yes when a change of playstyle of someone I consider scum makes him look less scummy to everyone else, then it's a bad thing obviously.

Is that all you can do DLA ? Because that's a very poor post you made. Seems like you're still riding your town-cred from D1. Where is the aggressiveness you displayed when you attacked me on D1 ? It seems to me it was all for show.

VOTE: DarkLightA

Some questions about this:

Do you think that all Town players will maintain the same playstyle on D2? Personally I think a lot of people change to some extent going into D2 because they've had time to read back and reflect in the game.

If yes, then do you think DLA and BBT are conciously or subconsciously changing their playstyle?

[Alchemist21]

I don't think I evee responded to this post, so I'll do it now.

Part of your argument against DLA was the player he voted didn't have time to respond. Clearly that wasn't the case since I responded, and now you're saying you know I responded, so at some point you lied - either to me or to DLA.

My posts about giving the people time to respond (101) was a response to CKD and not really a "case" against DLA. As I've said before, I didn't have a case against DLA and I voted for him for reasons mentioned in my ISO. I also don't see how I have lied as your response to DLA wasn't what I'd consider a response someone wants when they are vote hopping and you don't vote hope for one response and then shift your vote again. I see vote hopping as shifting your vote around relatively quickly but still putting the voted player under continued pressure to see how they respond. There was no continued pressure with DLA's vote on you.

If this doesn't make sense I'll rephrase it when I wake up.

This is what got said:

I'm not new to mafia. I've played it on a couple of other places but mostly I've played it IRL. I have seen people vote hop on day 1 ut they normally give a reason. I've also never seen someone votehop to one person (with no reason) and votehop back (with no reason) when someone calls them out on it all within twenty five minutes. The argument of it putting pressure on multiple people really isn't valid when the votes happened so quickly that the voted person didn't have a time to see the post, let alone respond. By votehoping so quickly he removed any kind of pressure he could have put on the people he was voting for which defeats the purpose of the hop in the first place. Am I the only one who finds this to be suspiscous?

You said I didn't have time to see or respond to the post, but I did and DLA even commented on my resonse. If you knew I made a response, you wouldn't say I didn't get to see it. And now you're changing the answer about the response. First it was I didn't get to respond, and now it's I didn't get to respond in the way someone would want. How would you know what he or anyone else wants for a response? What kind of response did you think someone would want?

I'm also wondering why you assumed his switch was a direct result of you asking about it. Let's play with the assumption he's Town here. Given that he commented on it before switching, I can easily see the likelihood of DLA actually liking the response and switching back. Did you consider that he wanted to vote a player already active in the thread rather than wait for the initial vote, and decide I handled his pressure vote well? As for continued pressure, that doesn't really hold up either. His comment and unvote would indicate he liked my response to his pressure (meaning it was the kind of response he was looking for) and resumed voting his original RVS vote to continue the pressure there.

[Alchemist21]

I'm also wondering why you assumed his switch was a direct result of you asking about it. Let's play with the assumption he's Town here. Given that he commented on it before switching, I can easily see the likelihood of DLA actually liking the response and switching back. Did you consider that he wanted to vote a player already active in the thread rather than wait for the initial vote, and decide I handled his pressure vote well? As for continued pressure, that doesn't really hold up either. His comment and unvote would indicate he liked my response to his pressure (meaning it was the kind of response he was looking for) and resumed voting his original RVS vote to continue the pressure there.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but there really wasn't much thought behind it. Your response was funny, and that was about it. I mainly wanted to switch around in order to stir around a bit, which was a success in my eyes.

Hey,

So, I've been thinking. We should probably lynch scum toDay.

With this thought in mind; I would like to ask a question;

Can somebody show me some town posts from MD?

If not, you should vote him so that we can lynch scum.

Thanks.

Let's just lynch Otolia then

He still had no reason to think you switched because you were called out on it.

How many votes are on MD right now?

Also,

@Mod, I'm V/LA for the weekend.

[Alchemist21]

I'll join the MD wagon. His backing down from BBT was bad in my eyes, and I need Otoila to answer my questions before I can keep working on DLA vs Otoila.

VOTE: MneumonicDevice

Marcrell, you need to answer my questions to you from earlier too.

I'm not gonna stop CKD from voting Marcrell if he thinks he's scummy for that post. I read it and I don't even know what Marcrell was trying to say in about half of it. Besides, if CKD works on Marcrell while we work on MD, we can split up the work on engaging and pushing the two that need to get sorted Today.

[Alchemist21]

@Collatz, I'm not going to say you're sheeping with that. There's a post directed at you on an earlier page though that needs a response.

[Alchemist21]

toDay

Not you too...

toDay is a good Day for a hanging.

[Alchemist21]

Holy fuck, can we not do this? I still think you're both Town, and would like a solid Town block with you two, RC, Lucky, and myself.

We don't need to be pushing either wagon to a lynch right now, just to get more content out of both of them to read them better. CKD, I understand how you feel about Marcrell and MD right now, but not everyone relies as heavily on gut.

[Alchemist21]

RC, I never said you should drop your suspicion of Marcrell. It's still possible that he's scum; I just think MD has been scummier so far. I'll tell you what I told CKD. I'd like us to push both a Marcrell wagon and an MD wagon, but neither is with the intent to lynch (not yet at least). With you and CKD on Marcrell, and myself and BBT on MD, we can split up the work on getting some answers out of them. Then later we can pool together and discuss things.

[Alchemist21]

What are you waiting for from Marcrell?
Do you have an opinion on MD vs BBT instead of making a filler comment?
Who is in a weird vote crossfire?
How am I posting like RC?

1. Replacement would be great but realistically, some answers is the best we're going to get.

2. MD is non-commital and his focus on you was weak but at the same time, you, a strong scum-read of mine is taunting him. That's was free and without consequences ... until you voted him.

3. Alchemist, Collatz, CKD in #543

4. The post listing you are doing more and more.

---

But what's even more interesting is how you changed your attitude.

What exactly do you mean by "your attitude" in this post?

Being a town leader in D1 (vote on Collatz, on me etc) to being more passive. What has changed ?

---

Otoila, I need you to show me what you're seeing differently in BBT's play, and I mean SHOW not TELL because I haven't noticed a change and if you can't show me why you think that I'll assume you're talking out of your ass.

Alright, =23899&user_select[]=0&user_select[]=0&user_sort=Go]here is BBT's ISO. Now I admit, he did post RC's style in 314 but I had the impression he did it more often in D2. I was somewhat right up to friday when my point became outright stupid and wrong.

Do you think that all Town players will maintain the same playstyle on D2? Personally I think a lot of people change to some extent going into D2 because they've had time to read back and reflect in the game.

If yes, then do you think DLA and BBT are conciously or subconsciously changing their playstyle?

Playstyle is mostly irrelevant. One can adopt a new one. What matters is motivation. I see scum motivation in DLA being a driving force D1 and taking a step back in D2 (though that's attitude) and I have already said I find the listings of comment hard to read - thus could be used as scum.

---

That should cover all questions I have been asked. I still look like a fool though but for some reason my wagon vanished ? I'm very puzzled as to what happened. Also Randommidget is still voting me. I can understand DLA's vote from a town PoV but I cannot fathom RM's. I'm still deciding on RM vs. Marcrell since I've been told I have to do that. Probably marcrell. I'll have that today.

Why aren't you voting anyone BBT ?

Otoila's explanation for why he sees the playstyle change in DLA scummy makes sense to me. This, plus his impractical opinion on a Cop Innocent when there might be a Godfather, is making me think he's more likely paranoid Town than scum.

[Alchemist21]

lmao

[Alchemist21]

I would not cry if mnemonic were lynched.

Intent to hammer!

This is not town.

How about you jump on now?

Hey,

So, I've been thinking. We should probably lynch scum toDay.

With this thought in mind; I would like to ask a question;

Can somebody show me some town posts from MD?

If not, you should vote him so that we can lynch scum.

Thanks.

Am I happy he is voting for the same person as me? No. Is it possible he is bussing? Sure, though not likely.

I wouldn't say I'm OK with his last post either.

I just feel that MD is the better lynch toDay.

434 - Mnemonic, it wasn't an inconsistency, as I pointed out. 421 is sarcasm, not deflection. What is it a deflection onto/from? What is the scum motivation for doing so?

First a response to this:
Otalia posts an inconsistency in 420, you deflect it because he has the quotes in reverse order, not answering why you changed stance so quickly. The scum motivation is that you do not wish for town to see the sudden change in stance on Otolia between those two points.

And now two questions @BBT:

First, why the tunnel?
Second, why is it always toDay?

Why is 586 not Town in your opinion?

If MD flips town...

That's funny.

The funny thing is that you are pushing my lynch so hard.

I'll join the MD wagon. His backing down from BBT was bad in my eyes, and I need Otoila to answer my questions before I can keep working on DLA vs Otoila.

VOTE: MneumonicDevice

Marcrell, you need to answer my questions to you from earlier too.

I'm not gonna stop CKD from voting Marcrell if he thinks he's scummy for that post. I read it and I don't even know what Marcrell was trying to say in about half of it. Besides, if CKD works on Marcrell while we work on MD, we can split up the work on engaging and pushing the two that need to get sorted Today.

This is not town. He just sheeps the main wagon here, without really good reasoning. There was no backing down from BBT either, I didn't avoid BBT, I didn't post at all because I was unavailable.

MD, Collatz and Otolia; you should all make use of your votes.

Choose a wagon.

Lemme catch up first. Don't worry I will use my vote, but I can't promise it to be on a wagon.

VOTE: MnemonicDevice

I'm voting for him because my vote on RandomMidget wasn't really doing anything. Whilst RM is a scum read of mine there isn't a chance of him bebeing lynched toDay so I don't want to waste my vote. In MD's ISO there isn't a whole lote of contribution. Mostly it's one line answers with very little reasoning behind it. Just a couple of examples:

@BBT: Thanks for letting me know you are town with #499
I feel that BBT is unable to commit to what he is saying. That is all. As shown above tho I now know that BBT is town.

No reasoning to back up him calling BBT town and it's kind of weird how he says BBT is unable to commit (something scummy) yet he says BBT is town.

Using both the phrases, "if I had to guess" and "I would say" seem like unnecessary wording, to imply doubt, which is fine, but having both of them right after each other seems wishy-washy

This seems forced especially since to me this is just natural speech/text and a very minor thing to pick up.

Basically MD is scummy to me as he hasn't done much (or anything) in the way of helping town and he doesn't appear to be actively scumhunting. Although, this is kind of hypocritical considering how I've not been very active or contirbuting much either. Anyway, now I'm just waitng for RM or Alchemist to accuse me of sheep voting

Read my meta. As Lucky has pointed out, I am not the most active of players. This vote against me at least has much better substance than the feeble one by Alch.

For now, VOTE: Alchemist21

Ok, so first of all, I have no idea how you're reading BBT right now.

Second, my vote on you is terrible? You must have forgotten I called you out earlier on backing down from BBT as it was happening in real time, not because you went into lurk mode (again). Am I bandwagoning? Yes. Am I sheeping? No. The difference is that I have my reasons for scumreading you that you've just furthered, and that I wanted to work with my townreads to push you/Marcrell to get you two sorted out. I was leaning scum on you, not Marcrell, so I felt leaving my Collatz vanity wagon to help pressure you was a good idea. (P.S. I love that the Collatz vote on you is the one you praise.)

[Alchemist21]

Any reason for not protecting the IC?

Because he's the logical choice. Scum might not kill him, becayse they'll expect doc protectection. Like not protecting a cop when scum knows there's a doc, I made a bet.

Why did you protect me specifically?

[Alchemist21]

Don't ignore me, Marcrell.

[Alchemist21]

And there were NO other people who fit that bill for you?

[Alchemist21]

I am calling this now, Alchemist/Macrell scum buddies.

Randommidget never did state why Marcrell is town switched to voting me. Chexk that outZ


We waiting for a claim from me? I am el médico. Protected Alch last night. Go ahead. Make it so the mafia doesn't even have to bother killing me.

When I see CKD's post immediately followed by Marcrell's post here, I can't help but think there's a good chance that Marcrell is scum accepting his lynch and trying to form associations with a Townie as he goes down. He knew he was at L-2, so he had no reason to claim yet, and when I ask why he chose me specifically, he can't give an actual reason.

VOTE: Marcrell

L-1

[Alchemist21]

Yeah, that's a good point about Collatz, and a scumflip from Marcrell would make MD more likely Town.

P-edit: I'd feel like a real dick if I was bussing Marcrell after he claimed doc protection on me. Lol

[Alchemist21]

Another way of looking at it is that Marcrell's inexplicable protection of you is kind of a "makes-you-go-huh?" moment.

Did you see why I voted him?

[Alchemist21]

The thing is, it was looking more and more likely that Marcrell would be toDay's lynch. If you were scum, it was a good opportunity for you to get on it.

I disliked that you quoted CKD's (?) post regarding you and Marcrell being town and then voted Marcrell as if it was an attempt to discredit his post.

Further, if I were scum in this game, I would absolutely have bussed Marcrell. He was pretty much deadweight.

To discredit who's posts? I quoted CKD's post followed by Marcrell's post to show that Marcrell saw someone form a pair between himself and me, so he claimed doc protection on me before he went down to make CKD more convinced of it.

[Alchemist21]

GG everyone!

When is the pokemon game due to run?