Open 591: C9++, The Lunatic Ayslum (Game Over: Town Win!)

[Alchemist21]

The first is that I'm his surest Townread. Usually people who haven't played with me before null or lean-scum on me, or at best mildly townread me. It's usually scum or people I've played with before that put me as a top townread this early.

I'm also suspicious of Reubus, but I really don't like this argument.

Let's just see what he has to say about it.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: otolia
He's afraid of getting into a tunnel this early as he is scum. Seems to be trying to slip back under the radar.
Also Alchemist is your avi kirito?

It's always been Kirito.

[Reubus Swagrid]

What I've gathered so far minus null reads that have nothing of interest

Alchemist21- Probably my most sure townread at the moment for genuine sounding posts and #131

DarkLightA- Analysis is good, slight townread

Lucky2u- Innocent Child

CDK- Running with a policy vote until I set off his “spidey senses”, unsure as to why. I explained that last time I was faced with a situation like this the person was actually town, though that’s 1 out of 2 games on MS I’ve completed, which isn’t enough for me to actually read him either way, though in the situation that I provided I initially scumread him on D1, doing so helped move the game along and generally elevated our understanding of each other. I would also like to note in that game I was scumread by scum after scumreading that particular townie on D1. If I

had

to choose an alignment at the moment I would honestly be leaning scum, but at the moment I only find you a suspicious nullread

Random Migdet- I have no idea what to make of your brief ISO, null for now

Rest are nulls but without a doubt more is going to come to light, do with this as you will. I have a suspicion that some of the less posty players are more likely scum than CDK but we'll see

There are two things that bug me about this post.

The first is that I'm his surest Townread. Usually people who haven't played with me before null or lean-scum on me, or at best mildly townread me. It's usually scum or people I've played with before that put me as a top townread this early. Even I don't think my posts have been that Towny so far, so I want to know some specifics of what you like about my 131 (I'll accept the tone read as just that, but citing a post warrants specifics).

The other thing is that he's referencing his own past experience in regards to his vote on Collatz, but he seems to just shrug off his experience in favor of the vote, then when he gets called on it he unvotes. I'm not even sure if he's giving that scum-lean-but-officially-a-null-read status in this post to CDK or Collatz. The main question here is, "If he's seen what Collatz did from Town before, what made it scummy this time enough to warrant that vote?"

VOTE: Reubus Swaggrid

If you were scum #131 could well have been a continued push on Collatz. Answering your question, I didn't think it was scummy, I was more interested to see who would latch onto my actions and look for motives as to why.

randommidget seems to refuse to explain why he has townread Marcell, I don't understand why he is playing like he is

As for the Otolia vs DarkLightA
I was leaning Otilia town but regarding the aggressive nature of his defence I need to rethink that now.
But seriously "peace offering"? Getting into grudges never seemed to pay off for me.
I don't feel right townreading DarkLight anymore. He was exploring avenues for a place to put his vote, though through this post Otolia did make a good point here I'm not as sure if DL has a pro-town motive anymore, then again I wasn't very sure at all to begin with.

Considering Collatz qualifies as a MS newbie, one could argue that DarkLightA is grasping at anything he can. I've got nothing better to do with my vote so VOTE: DarkLightA

what post do you feel like Dark is "grasping" at straws?

#70 and #108. Especially this quote :

I'm an obvious target because of my vote hopping, and he's taking full advantage of this to make a case against me without questioning whether it's actually a scumtell.

It's like he was waiting for someone to call him on it so he could pounce and start his case.

[Marcrell]

Spoiler: Wall of quotes

Also I'm in BEAUTIFUL Europe, land of the only handsome men (like me) on Earth.

'Course... It's weird that you'd say Europe and not your country or city.

---

Because you changed your vote once, and then twice for no reason.

Oh, I don't buy what you're selling.

---

My vote on Alchemist was also semi-serious. I'd like a response to the second part. Usually offering some sort of reason, even if useless, is better for town.

Please. I can't stand it when people unironically say words like "semi-serious", "kinda random" "I'm a little pregnant". Be bold, friend. When I see a word like semi-serious I think you're leaving the door open to go in either direction with your true intentions.

---

I think I have played with only 2 of you before- Red Coyote and Lucky2u.

Yeah, and as I recall you flaked.

---

Also VOTE: curiouskarmadog. I'm not seeing his wagon on random.

I don't like this vote. This is exactly what I was referring to with my criticism of his Alchemist vote explanation. Despite it being a "semi-serious" vote, he completely moves in another direction without addressing why ckd is a better vote than Alchemist.

---

UNVOTE:
VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

Were you not informed that you should confirm in-thread?

Eh, don't really like this vote. The question is too lawyer-y, too. Of course he was informed.

If anything, it should be a town-tell to be late in confirming when it's a confirm in thread game. Scum are likely going to be given pre-game access to a PT.

---

Before I catch up, this post is horrible.

Agreed. Something is off about Otolia. He's over-enthusiastic.

---

I'm an obvious target because of my vote hopping, and he's taking full advantage of this to make a case against me without questioning whether it's actually a scumtell. What merit does vote hopping this early in the game have to scum that it doesn't have to town? What would make scum more inclined to vote hop than town? I don't know, and I don't think Collatz knows either. I think he's just looking for an easy way to seem pro-town.

Much better post. I like this DLA.

---

This and his follow up are pure nonsense. One can assume that you didn't read your PM's fully if you didn't know to confirm in thread. He's either getting uber defensive at a perceived accusation or trying to create scum tells out of thin air.

I completely disagree. Why do you think it's fine for Otolia to speak on behalf of BBT before BBT could respond to DLA?

---

what part are you not seeing?

my vote page 2 on a wagon "if all things are constant"? Do you think all things will stay constant today?

Also this.

Good to play with you again, ckd. It's been a while.

---

But I also can't see Town switching their vote.

What do you mean? DLA explained it pretty clearly in 70. I can accept you disagreeing with him, but it's like you didn't even acknowledge it.

That being said, reading this post you come across more like a stubborn townie to me than scum, so take that how you will.

---

I don't like policy lynches on people day one though.

And just where are you seeing any advocacy of a policy lynch? You seem to be reading wayyy too much into this. I wouldn't even be so critical of this except for the fact that you abandoned your "semi-serious" vote in favor of ckd. Presumably you're fully vested in this vote now.

I'm not going to speak for ckd, but I saw his vote as a placeholder and an attempt to draw attention as to why he's going to be more critical of randomidget in this game based on meta. Nothing more. He even went out of his way to explain it as such.

---

Am I the only one who finds this to be suspiscous?

Not particularly, no. Even if I did, however, I'm satisfied with DLA's 70. I don't think you've taken the time to fairly respond to that post.

---

so are you voting me because I am douchey or because you think I am scum?

I'm anxious to see a response to this. randomidget needs to explain his vote or move it. As does Otolia and Reubus.

---

People who aren't voting right now, why ?

I'm just getting around to reading the thread. Why are you voting mnemomic at this point in the game?

---

Out of the kindness of my heart I've fixed that horrific spelling mistake. Am I not a generous God?

All due respect, I'd rather you not micromanage the posts. By all means, correct broken tags or delete stuff that is rule-breaking, but stuff like this is distracting at best.

---

Is the implication that as the IC I can decide to not vote but other players have to so that they show their motives? Clearly since the only confirmed town player is doing something, the behavior can't be seen as too suspicious.

I think he noted exactly that when he said "(minus IC that is)".

---

I've like Dark's attack. I've liked Collatz defense. I wouldn't say either was scum. I wouldn't townread, but they definitely wouldn't earn my vote.

Agreed.

VOTE: Marcrell

I'm most suspicious of Marcrell going into this game, and I'd like to encourage others to join me on this wagon. I'll give y'all a few key points as to why.

1) In post 53, he votes ckd because he doesn't "see" ckd's vote. Presumably this means he doesn't agree with the vote, but he doesn't take the time to explain why. Further, he abandons his "semi-serious" vote on Alchemist and has yet to address him since. Now, I disagree with his ckd vote on principle, but I'd be open to hearing his opinion as to why it's a better vote than the one on Alchemist (or voting someone else), but he doesn't give us that.
2) I see a chainsaw defense of Otolia in post 85. Marcrell hasn't talked about Otolia at all this game, and yet he's coming to his defense in what he sees as BBT's nonsensical and defensive posturing. Additionally, this is the strongest he's come down on any player thus far, so it seems to me like this would be a better spot for his vote than ckd is. This speaks even more to the ckd vote not being genuine.
3) The use of the term "policy lynch" in post 92 seems like a strawman. I didn't see ckd advocate for a policy lynch. To be sure, ckd's vote is a policy vote, but he made it clear his vote was riding on randomidget until something better came along. While I can see someone disliking that position, I hardly see it as grounds for voting. The fact that Marcrell felt the need to make a strawman and blow ckd's vote out of proportion is yucky to me.
4) Although I agree with the sentiment behind posts 109, 150 and 153, they all kind of say the same thing. Marcrell isn't really adding anything to the conversation like every other active player is (sans mnemonic).

And so it begins.

1. It was RVS. Now it was serious, but in the smallest sense. He didn't explain a vote. Yada yada reactions theory blablabla, I asked why he said nothing. He gave an answer. Not too much there. But, I used to play on EpicMafia. Policy lynches on people with no avatars every game. I despise the very idea of lynching on previous games(or any other matter besides in thread things, unless it's some sort of meta claim), and so I voted.

2. I pointed out the post is completely bonkers. Makes no sense. Otalia made a logical guess. Blue starts freaking out. I pointed it out. Making no sense isn't a scum tell, it means one either has miscommunicated or your idea was crazy.

3. It's a policy lynch. He's voting him because of a previous action. One can assume he would do this in any other game. Hence policy lynch. Resting your vote somewhere because there's no better option doesn't make it any less of a policy lynch.

4. Yeah, I got sort of lazy and didn't feel like analyzing much. My bad here.

I'm sorry, I've got to switch devices. I'll get real stuff up here soon. From skimming, Otalia looks bad, but maybe if I read into it. Should be something tonight. Tomorrow at the latest.

[wgeurts]

Votecount 1.4:

✂ Alchemist21 : 0 :
✂ BlueBloodedToffee : 0 :
✂ DarkLightA : 1 : Collatz
✂

(L-3)

Otolia : 4 : mnemonicdevice, Lucky2u, DarkLightA, randomidget
✂ curiouskarmadog : 1 : Marcell
✂ Collatz : 0 :
✂ mnemonicdevice : 0 :
✂ LlamaFluff : 0 :
✂ randomidget : 0 :
✂ Marcrell : 1 : RedCoyote
✂ Lucky2u : 0 :
✂ RedCoyote : 0 :
✂ Reubus Swagrid : 2 : curiouskarmadog, Alchemist21

Not Voting:

BlueBloodedToffee, Reubus Swagrid, LlamaFluff, Otolia

Deadline:

(expired on 2015-04-06 12:00:00)

It takes 7 votes to lynch.

Amy Farrah Fowler has been replaced by LlamaFluff!
BlueBloodedToffee has been prodded.
Curiouskarmadog is VLA until the 30th of March.

fact

In 1887, intrepid reporter Nellie Bly pretended she was crazy and got herself committed, all to help improve conditions in a New York City mental institution.

“The insane asylum on Blackwell’s Island is a human rat-trap. It is easy to get in, but once there it is impossible to get out.”

[LlamaFluff]

I will get caught up tomorrow, but am going to go ahead and post the Tier Claim theory for C9++ right now, its worked very well in the past since it takes scum who predicts the setup right, how to deal with this type of claim and gets lucky (depending on what they are trying to claim) to really do any damage in a massclaim situation

Essentially we do a few loops. The first loop is claiming tiers. You are either claiming VT, Tier 1 or Tier 2 at this point.

A VT role is obvious. A Tier 1 role is a role that does not require something else to be in the setup to exist, basically one where you don't know how much of your letter was rolled. A Tier 2 role is one where you know multiple letters were rolled.

For example using the doctor roles. If you are a doctor, that is a Tier 1 role as you have no real information about any other doctor type roles. It could be D, DD, DDD or more. If you are a One Shot Doctor, that is a Tier 2 role, as you know there are multiple Ds that have been rolled.

Once everyone has claimed VT, T1 or T2, then all of the T2 claims are going to popcorn claim what they are. After that the T1 claims all go, and that is how you massclaim in C9++ with maximum effectiveness

Also massclaim early is good in this setup (day three at VERY latest, depending on flips D2), especially if it appears to be power heavy. Its not a broken setup but it can be heavily optimized and scum put in a corner fast.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Prodge. Catch up done time tonight/tomorrow.

[Randomnamechange]

Sorry, missed thoae posts.
Marcrell's explanation gave me town vibes. It felt like he was genuinely trying to explain himself

@mod, i'm voting otolia

Alchemist, I only just realized it looks familiar, can't believe it took me this long to work it out.

[RedCoyote]

Good to see you again RC. I looked over the game we met in semi-recently cause I swear I thought your avatar was so scummy that you couldn't possibly be scum. You won the game... ....barely...

Either way, fun to see you again.

Ditto. Additionally, I feel very comfortable with you as town in this game, so it's doubly good to play with you today.

---

You're doing the same thing that I am. That's my peace offering, don't waste it.

:/

I'm having a hard time following Otolia's attack against DLA in general. Like Lucky/ckd have implied, even the foundation of DLA "grasping at straws" seems inaccurate to me. That is not how I would characterize DLA's play this game. If anything, DLA seems like the most open-minded player in the game thus far.

---

See those convenient post numbers? You say I'm deflecting post number 168 in post 167? Yeah. Right.

DLA is right here, and it speaks to Otolia trying to spin an earlier attack to refer to something completely after the fact. This is straight out dishonest.

---

OBVIOUSLY MEANS THAT IT'S SOMETHING YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED BUT THEN YOU DID WHILE I WAS WRITING MY POST.

It's not obvious to me. Further, that excuse is pretty flimsy in 2015 as we are now alerted of new posts before we submit any posts ourselves.

---

The first is that I'm his surest Townread. Usually people who haven't played with me before null or lean-scum on me, or at best mildly townread me. It's usually scum or people I've played with before that put me as a top townread this early. Even I don't think my posts have been that Towny so far, so I want to know some specifics of what you like about my 131 (I'll accept the tone read as just that, but citing a post warrants specifics).

This is pretty lame, Alchemist. I respect you wanting Reubus to flesh that out more, but I don't know how you can jump to a vote based on this.

Let me put it another way, I think you're jumping the gun and not engaging Reubus enough. This vote feels less like you are trying to scumhunt and more like you are just trying to get a vote out there for it's own sake.

---

This is not something that a town player should say. You are not in a sales negotiation.

This is a good talking point, it even made me chuckle, but I respectfully disagree. Though I am not really liking Otolia's argument against DLA, nor am I liking his spin, I can relate to the idea of trying to strike a balance with another player that you think is town misreading you.

That said, Otolia gave us typical song and dance when Alchemist asked him straight up if he was town or scumreading DLA, so eh.

---

As for the Otolia vs DarkLightA
I was leaning Otilia town but regarding the aggressive nature of his defence I need to rethink that now.
But seriously "peace offering"? Getting into grudges never seemed to pay off for me.
I don't feel right townreading DarkLight anymore. He was exploring avenues for a place to put his vote, though through this post Otolia did make a good point here I'm not as sure if DL has a pro-town motive anymore, then again I wasn't very sure at all to begin with.

This feels weak. I wonder if I am getting too extreme or what, but a lot of posts I'm reading from Otolia, Reubus and Marcrell strike me as really weak.

I can respect trying to figure out a game, but quit being so scared to say if something is townie/scummy. All I got from this bundle of mush is that "DLA could be town or scum, but Otolia could be town or scum... who knows!"

---

Policy lynches on people with no avatars every game. I despise the very idea of lynching on previous games(or any other matter besides in thread things, unless it's some sort of meta claim), and so I voted.

Based on this argument, may I assume that you think any time someone votes another player, they want them lynched? If yes, then I want you to justify your votes in this game. If no, then why isn't ckd afforded the same luxury as every other player in this game (namely, the ability to vote someone while not necessarily wanting to lynch them on the spot)?

I pointed out the post is completely bonkers. Makes no sense. Otalia made a logical guess. Blue starts freaking out.

These are all opinions... Look, why is it okay for Otolia to speak on BBT's behalf before BBT has a chance to speak for himself?

Resting your vote somewhere because there's no better option doesn't make it any less of a policy lynch.

And now is your turn to show me where ckd advocated lynching randomidget rather than drawing attention to a previous game. You're conflating the idea of policy votes and policy lynches in a dishonest way.

---

I'm content with Llama's strategy in 204. I suspect he'd know more than any of us the best way to tackle the game from a claim standpoint. If anyone objects, they should speak up.

[RedCoyote]

Also, Reubus, why aren't you voting? Especially for someone that said,

why haven't [people who aren't voting] got around to [voting]?

[Otolia]

@RC

: Some reads/analysis of yourselves are not up to par with the rest.

Do you think it's the case ?

I agree with your point on Reubus though, which could extend to everyone not voting/being still in RVS as I mentioned in #118 which was 2 days ago.

[RedCoyote]

I don't understand your question. My analysis of myself? I am town.

[RedCoyote]

which could extend to everyone not voting/being still in RVS as I mentioned in #118 which was 2 days ago.

You know, you're in this group, brother.

[DarkLightA]

Good post RC. I like your analysis. I'll respond in greater depth later.

@Reubus:

How likely do you think it is that Otolia and I are scum together?

[Otolia]

I don't understand your question. My analysis of myself? I am town.

"[...] analysis of

yours

[...]" But you could infer that much. You could have shown a little more willingness to understand me there.

[RedCoyote]

I'm not trying to be a dick. Even that allegation I don't really understand. I've try to be very forthright about all my opinions, especially when I am town. Could you be more specific? Do you just want me to do a summary for you?

At the moment, I think Marcrell needs a ton more attention paid to him.
As to you and DLA, I don't find your arguments compelling and have a comfortable townread on DLA at the moment.
As to Collatz, I suspect he's town although I disagree with the direction he's going with his reads.
As to ckd and BBT, I liked their contributions so far and am anxious to hear more from them. I'd give ckd a thumbs up for town, BBT is way too early to call.
As to Reubus, I think he's misleading and potentially a good candidate for lynching today.

Not a lot to say about randomidget, mnemonic, Llama and Alchemist. Alchemist, random and mnemonic need to contribute more. Llama just joined us.

I've addressed all of these things in one way or another in my posts, so I dispute the idea that some of my analysis is not "up to par with the rest". What specifically am I glossing over?

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP:

tried

[Otolia]

I'm not trying to be a dick. Even that allegation I don't really understand. I've try to be very forthright about all my opinions, especially when I am town. Could you be more specific? Do you just want me to do a summary for you?

At the moment, I think Marcrell needs a ton more attention paid to him.
As to you and DLA, I don't find your arguments compelling and have a comfortable townread on DLA at the moment.
As to Collatz, I suspect he's town although I disagree with the direction he's going with his reads.
As to ckd and BBT, I liked their contributions so far and am anxious to hear more from them. I'd give ckd a thumbs up for town, BBT is way too early to call.
As to Reubus, I think he's misleading and potentially a good candidate for lynching today.

Not a lot to say about randomidget, mnemonic, Llama and Alchemist. Alchemist, random and mnemonic need to contribute more. Llama just joined us.

I've addressed all of these things in one way or another in my posts, so I dispute the idea that some of my analysis is not "up to par with the rest". What specifically am I glossing over?

You aren't glossing over anything in particular. What I meant precisely is : when you answer things in such a format (list of quote), not everything you say has the same value nor the same reach. I can't say I like the format you use since there isn't a lot of formatting and it's hard to read the intent of your post. It's more a question of playstyle than content though.

[Alchemist21]

What I've gathered so far minus null reads that have nothing of interest

Alchemist21- Probably my most sure townread at the moment for genuine sounding posts and #131

DarkLightA- Analysis is good, slight townread

Lucky2u- Innocent Child

CDK- Running with a policy vote until I set off his “spidey senses”, unsure as to why. I explained that last time I was faced with a situation like this the person was actually town, though that’s 1 out of 2 games on MS I’ve completed, which isn’t enough for me to actually read him either way, though in the situation that I provided I initially scumread him on D1, doing so helped move the game along and generally elevated our understanding of each other. I would also like to note in that game I was scumread by scum after scumreading that particular townie on D1. If I

had

to choose an alignment at the moment I would honestly be leaning scum, but at the moment I only find you a suspicious nullread

Random Migdet- I have no idea what to make of your brief ISO, null for now

Rest are nulls but without a doubt more is going to come to light, do with this as you will. I have a suspicion that some of the less posty players are more likely scum than CDK but we'll see

There are two things that bug me about this post.

The first is that I'm his surest Townread. Usually people who haven't played with me before null or lean-scum on me, or at best mildly townread me. It's usually scum or people I've played with before that put me as a top townread this early. Even I don't think my posts have been that Towny so far, so I want to know some specifics of what you like about my 131 (I'll accept the tone read as just that, but citing a post warrants specifics).

The other thing is that he's referencing his own past experience in regards to his vote on Collatz, but he seems to just shrug off his experience in favor of the vote, then when he gets called on it he unvotes. I'm not even sure if he's giving that scum-lean-but-officially-a-null-read status in this post to CDK or Collatz. The main question here is, "If he's seen what Collatz did from Town before, what made it scummy this time enough to warrant that vote?"

VOTE: Reubus Swaggrid

If you were scum #131 could well have been a continued push on Collatz. Answering your question, I didn't think it was scummy, I was more interested to see who would latch onto my actions and look for motives as to why.

randommidget seems to refuse to explain why he has townread Marcell, I don't understand why he is playing like he is

As for the Otolia vs DarkLightA
I was leaning Otilia town but regarding the aggressive nature of his defence I need to rethink that now.
But seriously "peace offering"? Getting into grudges never seemed to pay off for me.
I don't feel right townreading DarkLight anymore. He was exploring avenues for a place to put his vote, though through this post Otolia did make a good point here I'm not as sure if DL has a pro-town motive anymore, then again I wasn't very sure at all to begin with.

Considering Collatz qualifies as a MS newbie, one could argue that DarkLightA is grasping at anything he can. I've got nothing better to do with my vote so VOTE: DarkLightA

what post do you feel like Dark is "grasping" at straws?

#70 and #108. Especially this quote :

I'm an obvious target because of my vote hopping, and he's taking full advantage of this to make a case against me without questioning whether it's actually a scumtell.

It's like he was waiting for someone to call him on it so he could pounce and start his case.

Ok, I understand your reasoning for liking my 131. I still don't get why you seemingly ignored your past experience when you voted Collatz though. You say you didn't see it as scummy, but then again you also said if you had to choose you would say scum. There must have been some hint of scumminess for you to think that way despite your previous experience, right?

[Alchemist21]

@RC, my vote is a tool and weapon to use as I see fit.

[DarkLightA]

@RC

:

Some reads/analysis of yourselves are not up to par

with the rest.

Do you think it's the case ?

You aren't glossing over anything in particular. What I meant precisely is : when you answer things in such a format (list of quote), not everything you say has the same value nor the same reach. I can't say I like the format you use since there isn't a lot of formatting and it's hard to read the intent of your post.

It's more a question of playstyle than content though

.

Ugh.

[Randomnamechange]

@redcoyote im always like this day 1. Flips are like coffee for me. I need them to get going.
So are we doing the tier thing?

[mnemonicdevice]

Just realized I've played with randomidget before, and this is how he played the other game too.

I'm not trying to be a dick. Even that allegation I don't really understand. I've try to be very forthright about all my opinions, especially when I am town. Could you be more specific? Do you just want me to do a summary for you?

At the moment, I think Marcrell needs a ton more attention paid to him.
As to you and DLA, I don't find your arguments compelling and have a comfortable townread on DLA at the moment.
As to Collatz, I suspect he's town although I disagree with the direction he's going with his reads.
As to ckd and BBT, I liked their contributions so far and am anxious to hear more from them. I'd give ckd a thumbs up for town, BBT is way too early to call.
As to Reubus, I think he's misleading and potentially a good candidate for lynching today.

Not a lot to say about randomidget, mnemonic, Llama and Alchemist. Alchemist, random and mnemonic need to contribute more. Llama just joined us.

I've addressed all of these things in one way or another in my posts, so I dispute the idea that some of my analysis is not "up to par with the rest". What specifically am I glossing over?

At this point, would you rather lynch macrell or reubus today?

[Marcrell]

Policy lynches on people with no avatars every game. I despise the very idea of lynching on previous games(or any other matter besides in thread things, unless it's some sort of meta claim), and so I voted.

Based on this argument, may I assume that you think any time someone votes another player, they want them lynched? If yes, then I want you to justify your votes in this game. If no, then why isn't ckd afforded the same luxury as every other player in this game (namely, the ability to vote someone while not necessarily wanting to lynch them on the spot)?

I pointed out the post is completely bonkers. Makes no sense. Otalia made a logical guess. Blue starts freaking out.

These are all opinions... Look, why is it okay for Otolia to speak on BBT's behalf before BBT has a chance to speak for himself?

Resting your vote somewhere because there's no better option doesn't make it any less of a policy lynch.

And now is your turn to show me where ckd advocated lynching randomidget rather than drawing attention to a previous game. You're conflating the idea of policy votes and policy lynches in a dishonest way.

Uno: RVS votes-fine. RVS claiming a screwup last game-fine. Retaining that-not fine. I may have misread how serious he was about keeping it, but I read him as being insistent on the lynch.
Dos: Because he made a logical assumption. Later on he said it was a typo, he meant to refer to himself and imply the same thing happened. Whether or not that was the intention, the other assumption that can be drawn is that Blue did not misread but completely ignored directions in his role PM. Honestly. I really can't see how this is a problem.
Tres: He voted. Said it would be better to do it early. If I have to say that I made a word mistake and said lynch instead of vote...
I've been getting a vibe that a lot of these questions are semantics. I don't know, maybe I'm crazy.

And now for Marcrell's patented Gigantic Analysis Wall of Text. Today's mystery guest....

Otolia!

@DarkLightA : That's a pretty weak vote. He was informed but didn't read his PM that carefully. Nothing to get your panties in a bunch !

It was a weak vote. Alright here.

He was informed but didn't read his PM that carefully.

I tried to put myself in your shoes. But you're right, I thought something and said another.

Claims it was a typo. I'm not sure if it was, but I wasn't bothered by the post so eh.

Considering Collatz qualifies as a MS newbie, one could argue that DarkLightA is grasping at anything he can. I've got nothing better to do with my vote so VOTE: DarkLightA

Aight. I don't really see it. Like, I see where he's going, but I don't think it's there.

Otolia, why haven't you come up with anything productive so far? You've asked questions and made empty statements.

(...)one could argue (...) I've got nothing better to do with my vote (...)

Why the distancing from the vote? Do you not stand by your actions?

Voting is the commitment. Besides what do you consider productive ? Do you consider yourself productive ?

Redirecting the focus. Don't like it.

All I'm saying is that that vote looked like you were setting yourself up extremely well to jump off that vote with no further consequences at a later point. I don't like that.

I consider myself productive.

So I'm setting myself up to do the same thing that you just done and that Collatz is calling you on ? Aren't you a bit hypocritical ? I don't really like how you consider yourself above all reproach especially when you're pulling this kind of shit off. Cognitive dissonance at its best.

I think his hopping was established as not being scummy. From what I saw. Again, I see where he's going, but I'm not getting there.

All I'm saying is that that vote looked like you were setting yourself up extremely well to jump off that vote with no further consequences at a later point. I don't like that.

I consider myself productive.

So I'm setting myself up to do the same thing that you just done and that Collatz is calling you on ? Aren't you a bit hypocritical ? I don't really like how you consider yourself above all reproach especially when you're pulling this kind of shit off. Cognitive dissonance at its best.

Listen: I'm not calling you out on the voting or on wanting to gather information, that's more than fine, but I'm just questioning the way you're doing it. You're misrepresenting what I'm arguing.

You're deflecting and I don't see the difference between what I've done and what you've done. So in essence, either you needlessly nitpicking to pass as town or you're just pointing fingers at everything that moves in the hope that you can pounce on it.

I haven't played Mafia on MS for a while, I don't remember the last time I played Mafia here but definitely before the Mayan Apocalypse. Maybe War in Heaven III.

This one I don't see much. I can understand being read from being out of it. See Shiryu in http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=58512
But, I don't know if that's happening here.

DarkLightA

: Why are you unvoting now ? Is it because of Collatz's last post ?

Spoiler: Otolia vs. DarkLightA 1

You're deflecting

What am I deflecting? Ask me straight-up what I haven't answered well enough and I'll be happy to share.

Well that :

DarkLightA

: Why are you unvoting now ? Is it because of Collatz's last post ?

Edit : Which you answered when I was writing. But it brings me to my next point.

DarkLightA

: Why are you unvoting now ? Is it because of Collatz's last post ?

Nope. It's to do with a shift in my reads.

That's fine and all but what about this :

@Collatz, you make some fair points. Re: gathering information I see you mentioned it in #105 too. I missed that. I don't see how you talk about information gathering in #81 though.

This is what I meant by my gathering information. It's between the lines, but pretty clear:

but I like to vote to test people, get used to it.

I see what you're saying about the town vs scum divide on suspicious behavior, but you're wrong (you'll usually be wrong anyway). But that's okay, it's a learning process. You'll find that scum in almost all cases have more to lose from a lynch than town, and thus will be more hesitant to stand out.

I don't like the new "information gathering" explanation you've come up with, especially seeing as it was only something that came out after you were put under considerable pressure. It seems like this is something you've made up retroactively rather than the initial intentions in your actions. That's okay, but I'd like you to be honest if that's the case, because it's not looking too good the way you're portraying it now.

Your posts are increasing giving off a feeling of willingness to cooperate though, which I find pleasing.

Would it be fair if I accused you of trying to escape the responsibility of the unvote by setting yourself up a few post before ?

---

Spoiler: Otolia versus DarkLightA

and I don't see the difference between what I've done and what you've done.

Nowhere in my posts did I say: Oh yeah, I mean, uhh... I'm just voting because there's not really a better thing to do. So I guess one could argue that Collatz is acting suspiciously.

That's an imitation of what you did in #141. If you wanted to gather information from a vote you should be direct and to-the-point. The way you phrased that post in particular makes it seem like you're trying to avoid being held responsible for the vote.

I'm trying to avoid being held responsible by actively engaging with you ? W/E

So in essence, either you needlessly nitpicking to pass as town or you're just pointing fingers at everything that moves in the hope that you can pounce on it.

This is interesting: do you think I am needlessly nitpicky in my play? Because I think I'm making perfectly valid points.
In some ways the latter statement is true—I do try to provoke responses—but that's a legitimate strategy. You're trying to paint me as scum. Why?

So what am I doing then ? I voted you, the same way you voted Collatz, and I'm trying to provoke answers from you (just like you did with him and are doing with me). Why do you hold me to a different standard than yourself ? Why do you base so much of your argumentation on ONE post where I voted, disregarding what I've done afterwards. Sure my vote wasn't the best vote I've ever done, fine. You extorted that much out of me. But the game has to start somewhere. And I believe that I'm doing the same thing in essence that you're doing.

Conclusion : UNVOTE: I think I've made my point. You're doing the same thing that I am. That's my peace offering, don't waste it.

This post is.... Nah. Accusing Dark of being hypocritical. I understand what he means. It makes some sense. But not enough for a scum read.

I can feel the peace offering statement of being one townie believing to be caught in a town v town trying to end it, but the seeming threat doesn't help his case.

@DarkLightA

: How you fail to see my PoV is beyond me. We are doing the exact same thing and yet you refuse to budge one inch from your position. I've tried to meet you halfway because I believed that since we were essentially doing the same thing, we must be both town and you unvoted so I just thought we could reach an understanding. But no. By the way, you said "Ask me straight-up what I haven't answered well enough and I'll be happy to share." and I answer "Well that" + a quote of a question, it OBVIOUSLY MEANS THAT IT'S SOMETHING YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED BUT THEN YOU DID WHILE I WAS WRITING MY POST.

---

Otoila are you Townreading or Scumreading DLA right now?

I wish I knew myself. I was townreading him in my last post because I thought that he had the same reasoning but now that he is voting me again, it's like the case of Collatz suddenly makes sense. >< For now, he is back to null read like the rest.

---

OTOLIA, apparently you missed this question (?)

Considering Collatz qualifies as a MS newbie, one could argue that DarkLightA is grasping at anything he can. I've got nothing better to do with my vote so VOTE: DarkLightA

what post do you feel like Dark is "grasping" at straws?

#70 and #108. Especially this quote :

I'm an obvious target because of my vote hopping, and he's taking full advantage of this to make a case against me without questioning whether it's actually a scumtell.

It's like he was waiting for someone to call him on it so he could pounce and start his case.

---

Otolia are you purposefully ignoring this? Answer or my vote won't move on policy.

I've done so above.

I think this is decent. Alright.

Result: He makes points that are halfway good, but I think are stretching it. I'd lean scum this way.

UNVOTE:

But he's L-3, I'd bring him to L-2. He's got enough votes for now.

[LlamaFluff]

Quick skim done due to some unforeseen stuff popping up after work today. Will probably end up voting RM or RS if a more indepth read doesn't give me anything else.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Catching up.

Bitches.