Open 623 (White Flag) - A Moment in Time (Over)

[KickAssAndGiggle]

Hi all. I'll catch up as soon as possible and post my thoughts.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

KAAG is not an alt: KAAG is a player who has played a good amount of Mafia elsewhere, and wishes he'd thought to find a dedicated forum sooner. So...you could say KAAG is stupid.

I have read the thread, am just checking some stuff in ISOs. Summary to follow within the hour.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

Okey dokey, karaoke.

(I don't want to post a shed-load of quotes in a big wall, so I'll keep summaries brief. After this, I'll put some questions together for those I am totally Null on).

TheCow

So little real scum hunting on D1, lots of "non questions" and one-line nothing statements. You can maybe make a case that post 123 and post 343 are vaguely "scum-hunty", but really it's a whole lotta nothing on D1. And then the yuck hammer...not just the speed but the post accompanying it. Yuck, yuck, yuck.

Scum lean.

Titus

On the whole, picking a lynch on D1, sticking to it, demanding it and refusing to be sidetracked from it, kinda looks Town. Scum are normally happy to leap from wagon to wagon...you draw a lot of attention playing like Titus did on D1 and that's not usually scum play. Being wrong on a D1 read is no tell in my view.

Town lean.

AlwaysInnocent

The only person I've played with before here. His game here looks just like it did in my last game with him, where he was town. However, I found that I could not read him at all in that game, I was clueless, and I've never played with scum AI. As he knows, I don't find his "mud-slinging" style to be that effective: I'm not personally prepared to call it scum-hunting myself, however I do believe he SINCERELY does consider it so.

Null

ExtrapolatedEagle

Hmm...some posts look very town, and some look very scum. I really do not like the way he dropped in his previous scum experience with Titus. Buddying? Trying to get her to think "This isn't the Eagle I remember from last time"?

But I DO like the way he town read AI and then realised that AI's contribution is sometimes not super-helpful for town.

Null

Viva La Gloria

With one or two exceptions, it has been a never-ending stream of "Vote Titus, Titus is scum". For similar reasons to Titus herself, I kinda suspect he is town. Titus vs Viva = TvT?

Town Lean

SirCakez

Got a serious scum vibe from him D1. Nonsense statements such as "Town are confident in their reads" on D1, for instance (there are thousands of Mafia players, and we're all different. It's a total generalisation). However, he then immediately voted for Cow on D2, which begain to placate me somewhat. But...then I see in his final post so far, he moved his vote to Firebringer, for pressure. Now, considering on D1 he was keen to point out that moving votes "easily" was something he found suspect, it's a bit strange to me. I don't like statements like:

Cow still needs rope

Setting it up so on D3 he can say "You can see I thought he was scummy, I just had to pressure someone else". Nope, don't like it.

Scum Lean

Firebringer

Wow...so little content here from someone with such a huge site-wide post count. It took less than 3 mins to read his ISO, without skimming. And...he's done no scumhunting. At all. I mean...literally zero.

So I tried his predecessor. Nope, nothing there either.

Activity is no indicator of alignment, but FB

HAS

posted...it's just been a whole slew of pointless nothingness.

Scum Lean

pistachi0n

Nope, not a fan here. Said "I didn't want a quick lynch" on SS, but was the one who put him to L-1. And saying "If Titus is wrong, she is suspect, else, AlwaysInnocent" is a bit yuck in that scenario.

(Again...the level of scumhunting done here is small)

Scum Lean

Cerberus

I like him. Lots of good scum hunting. I saw EE say something about his RVS "kidding about" being scummy: I disagree. Probably my strongest read.

Probable Town

Karnage

Karnage has not posted much yet (totally understandable), so I'm checking his predecessor. Yonom: pretty towny, attempts to scumhunt, seems relatively logical and deductive.

Town Lean

So...

{KickAssAndGiggle}

{Cerberus}

{Titus, Viva La Gloria, Karnage}

{ExtrapolatedEagle, AlwaysInnocent}

{TheCow, FireBringer, pistachi0n, SirCakez}

(Of course, 4 scum leans means at minimum I'm wrong on one)

No point me pussyfooting about: most scummy is...

(dum dum DUUUUUUUUUM)

VOTE: TheCow

[KickAssAndGiggle]

Where else have you played? Playing elsewhere doesn't make you stupid. I am asking to get a baseline to how you approach the game.

Many games on the old America's Army forum (back in 2002 - 2004)

Many games on the ConquerClub (that's like online RISK) forum (2005 - 2012)

Many games on the WEBL (Web Boxing League) forum (2013 - 2015)

(Dates are all "ish")

I try and be logical, balance of probabilities, head-over-gut. Additionally, I find meta to be, at best, the seasoning of reason. I don't like using it as a main ingredient of my play.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

Hi EE!

Yes, I got that. It was when you said (and I'm just paraphrasing to save me time):

"I saw scum Titus, and she confused town, but I could see she was scum."

When you are scum, you always think your scum partners/hydra look more scummy. I found it, no disrespect, irrelevant, and I found the mentioning of it in more than one post...not quite buddying...yet...kinda buddying. Soft buddying, if you will.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

EBWOP: ah man, I saw you preferred Eagle to EE when I read your ISO. Apologies. I will not make that mistake again.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

I think for now I'll keep my vote on my most scummy read of TheCow.

FB is a scum lean for me, and I'll consider changing, once both of them have provided some more content this day.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

kaag's reads are crap, I don't understand them

Hi TheCow.

With the exception of Titus and Viva La Gloria, my reads (coming in on page 50 of an ongoing game) are mainly based on two factors:

1) How much effort was put into scum hunting
2) How many posts were made that are just useless filler, designed to make it look as though someone is contributing when they're not

I'm afraid you came bottom of the list, so far. Your hammer didn't help either, although it wasn't the biggest factor: as I said, I only "liked" 2 of your posts in total.

For Titus and Viva, my read is that when you single-mindedly stick to one lynch, unflinchingly, you are unlikely to be scum, as scum tend to opportunistically leap from wagon to wagon, avoiding being the center of attention (unless doing some scum theater bussing). They have both drawn a lot of attention to themselves, which makes me think they are likely town.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

To be clear, the only read I have that I'm relatively sure on is Cerberus as Town. Every other one is just a lean, and subject to change as more content appears. If I'm wrong about you or someone else, convince me.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

Why is it awful? You said he was scum but "not the priority"? Why can't he be? Scum is scum.

No, I said he

could

be scum.
The fact that the entire scumteam just flashwagoned him determined that he is town.
Why the hell are we not lynching Titus here?

As I understand it, your main reason for thinking Titus is scum was because she voted SS without a reason, and wouldn't engage with you on the subject.

But, I saw the reason: making a weird post in RVS and then going "I was joking" later.

(Also, have to say post 224 by SS reads as super scummy, even though it obviously wasn't...surprised a towny would post that wall of irrelevance. I'd have joined his wagon after that!)

Do I think Titus' reason was good? Nope, typical "Scum did this in another game" fallacy. But being wrong is not being scum.

Conversely, do I think your reason is good? Nope, typical "She won't repeat her point to me every time I ask and it's suspicious" fallacy.

I think you two are TvT...that's what my Occam's Razor says to me.

Titus,

You are reading SirCakez as town, right? Why? Please no meta: in this thread, where's the town read coming from?

AI,

Why am I your top town read? All I've done is summarize my reads, based on scum hunting volume. And I'm town-reading Titus which you don't agree with...

[KickAssAndGiggle]

@KAAG,

I don't see how anyone isn't townreading Cakes. To me, he is the most obvious scumhunter out if everyone here. We tend to be in the same place regarding most our reads and he's pushing the things I would except for Viva.

Hmm...well, I skimmed his ISO again...maybe it's a little better than I thought last night. Still, do you not think that:

"I'll make same reads as Titus, because she'll get the flak on D2, not me"

Could be his scum motivation? Because that's kinda what's happened with Viva...

I read your single-minded push as somewhat towny...but he was arguing all kinds of points with everyone who wasn't on the wagon. It just doesn't read so well to me.

Plus...Droog was on the Cakes wagon (I actually thought I saw him unvote but that wasn't reflected in the vote count), and was for my money the most logical of all who were on that wagon...and he ended up with a bullet.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

For it to be absurd, I'd have to identify someone else with more reason to want him dead.

I guess there is this:

i suspect scum in one of yonm/ss

Obviously Yonom is now Karnage.

Yeah...that's the only other reason in thread I can see why Droog was N1 kill. So...no, not absurd.

(Regarding the speed of his unvote: yes it was relatively quick: forgive me for not noting the date/times first time through)

My reads aren't the same as Titus's. Mainly it's our two top scum reads that align.

Right...but that's all it takes.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

If I was scum and wanted to get rid of a threat, why wouldn't I shoot someone like you who has been consistently scumreading me?

(Yeah I knew that was at AI)

Because you thought Droog was the better player? (I offer no opinion, but it's a reason)

Droog was a kill aimed to not upset the game state I think, since he did fairly little. Which means the wrong people were in the spotlight.

I'm not sure I get this...SS and you were in the spotlight on D1, why was that wrong?

[KickAssAndGiggle]

VOTE: Viva

Don't care. Can't hunt with the noise. Kill it or me. Ty.

Good, maybe we'll get a wagon on scum through without your noise.

Yeah...again I get this little yucky feeling that you are just sheeping Titus. I'm not convinced she's scum, but I do begin to think you are.

If I were to give in to Viva's insistence that Titus needs to die and voted Titus, what do I learn if she flips Town? Not a lot: the one pushing her is prob!town.

But if you die, we learn from your flip, as you were the D1 counter-wagon. And while Droog did unvote you on D1, where would his vote have gone on D2 after SS flipped town? There's a reason Droog was targeted IMHO...

I'm still pretty suspicious of TheCow, but I think I'm going to:

UNVOTE: TheCow
VOTE: SirCakez

Because A) you may well be scum, and B) if we do mislynch, you are the best mislynch.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

These wagons are awful. Town just can't stop sheeping scum wagons.
I'm gonna look hella stupid if FB flips town but something tells me that he's not going to flip town.
We really need to lynch Titus and her block, especially Sircakez, Yonom's replacement, and Cerberus.

AI is town. Pretty sure FB is town as well based on wagon makeup.
We need to lynch Titus now or we're never going to be able to.

How about lynching SirCakez today, seeing his flip, then discussing Titus and others on D3? I'll be more amenable to considering scum!Titus after seeing scum!SirCakez.

Cerberus

The reason I think you are my strongest town read is your repeated attempts to break up the SS wagon on D1. I can't see any scum motivation for your D1, hence, prob!town. Maybe I've missed it, but do you have a read list?

[KickAssAndGiggle]

Well, I'm sure that's incredibly useful information, without a reason.

I can't read SirCakez as town and your reason for doing so makes little sense to me: he's just sheeping you.

Why do you think Droog, who had basically already gone inactive, was NK'd? (Not trying to be rhetorical here: genuine question)

[KickAssAndGiggle]

KAAG: Why are you asking why Droog got nightkilled?

Because why would scum just pick a random name out of a hat? Yeah...I'm sure they

can

but how often does that happen.

Droog had scum reads on three peeps, one of them was a towny lynched on D1. Leaving two...

[KickAssAndGiggle]

Do you think we can get any useful information out of the N1 kill? I'm skeptical. Scum choose to kill for all sorts of reasons. This is actually something I agree with Titus on.

I don't think you can be sure, but it's just one little clue in a sea of clues.

The analysis that led to the D1 lynch:

"He made a comment in RVS that wasn't obv!joke, then said he was joking. SCUM!"

So...y'know, ANY analysis beats that!

[KickAssAndGiggle]

If Titus is scum then she successfully buddied the hell out of me which would be sad.

I'd say it was more the other way around.

I had the devil's day @ work yesterday, had almost no time to get involved.

I see some peeps scum-reading AI. As I said in my first summary, in my last game with him (Newbie 1675), I was utterly confused by his play, and could not read him at all. He turned out to be town. I can't read him here either. Frankly, I think I could toss a coin and have the same chance of getting it right on AI.

Viva again is asking me to vote Titus, but I don't feel comfortable reading her as scum, because I feel the buddying was more SirCakez -> her rather than t'other way round.

I find it hard to accept that people don't think N1 kill analysis can be helpful.

By saying "I won't use N1 kill analysis to scum hunt", you give scum a free shot to get rid of their biggest threat. Because they KNOW you won't analyze it!

I prefer a SirCakez lynch to Titus:

- If he flips Scum, we can look at the D1 wagon on SS with a new fact
- If he flips Town, we can look at the D1 wagon on HIM with a new fact (we don't really get that with Titus)
- He's scummier than Titus. Her push was single-minded; Cakez has entered every debate on every topic, changed his vote on a single word from Titus (post 1228) and throws spurious logic around about "read confidence is a town tell" and "N1 kill was not to 'unbalance' the game" like confetti.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

Alarm bells, eh?

I have a scum lean on him...but not my #1 for sure.

Let's assume this alarm was not a bell, but a super-computer with a voice module. It would say what?

[KickAssAndGiggle]

Alarm bells, eh?

I have a scum lean on him...but not my #1 for sure.

Let's assume this alarm was not a bell, but a super-computer with a voice module. It would say what?

Your ancient is under attack.

Uh...um...

Are you a gamer? If so... LOLWUT?

[KickAssAndGiggle]

Viva,

Explain to me, what do I do if I vote Titus and she flips town?

Note: saying "that won't happen" will not secure my vote.

Convince me.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

No...I mean LOLWUT???

As in:

Your ancient is under attack.

I don't understand what this means

[KickAssAndGiggle]

OK...

Cerb is easily my strongest town read. I'm wrong because...???

[KickAssAndGiggle]

Eagle:

OK, I get it. I don't play Dota2, more of a RTS/Fighting game man. Starcraft 2/Killer Instinct/Mortal Combat X/Kerbal Space Program etc.

Still, can you explain why your wagon on FB, of you (unclear), Titus (unclear) and SirCakez (scum-lean) are correct on FB? Perhaps you think you already have done so, but, please, treat me like an idiot and be super clear.


Viva:

That's not the level of reasoning I'm looking for...

Cerberus hated the D1 wagon of SS, and fought it, hard. You think that's super-advanced scumplay? I don't see it.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

Ah, well in that case, help me to help you.

Why is Titus scum? Without mentioning the SS wagon/lynch.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

@mod: I voted for firebringer in 1250

Apologies. The quoted vote caused me to miss the non quoted vote. ~Drixx

So is Firebringer @ L-1?

[KickAssAndGiggle]

I see, count was edited to take Karnage's changed vote into account, coolio.

One thing SirCakez and I can agree on is that I probably should vote for someone who can be lynched. It seems even those who are voting Titus don't see the (obvious) benefits of SirCakez first. OK, I guess as the new kid on the block I'll reluctantly go with that for now.

Choice between FB and Titus...hmm...let me have one more ISO browse and then I'll pick.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

Firebringer

The only good reason I have not to vote FB is that FB read SirCakez as possible scum, which I agree with.

I don't expect people to defend a wagon on them, but to present cases on others. You can kinda fit FB's contribution on D2 on a post-it note.

Also, not a fan of the exchange between him and Eagle: if you think someone's logic is wrong, say why. The statement without the explanation is pointless.

Titus

Nothing has changed here, still suspect more likely to be town. I've asked the guys/gals wagoning her for a better reason than being wrong on D1, but nothing good enough has been offered.


If I can't get SirCakez (sigh), I'll have to compromise.

VOTE: Firebringer

Firebringer is @ L-1

(I am very fond of Yoshi, and I'll miss the Avatar. )

The big issue with this game is that nobody is coming across as obv!town. There's no PR's, scum know who we are...there's no point in being coy, town.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

I do see a problem yes: SirCakez is sheeping the hell outta Titus.

Doesn't make Titus scum though.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

You don't see an issue with the immediate Titus/Sircakez/Karnage vote block

What about Eagle? Is he above suspicion for you?

[KickAssAndGiggle]

Viva:

So the reason I should think Titus is scum is because:

She, Eagle, SirCakez and Karnage were on the D1 wagon and are now on the same wagon D2.

Well, my predecessor was on the D1 wagon, and only posted to request replacement on D2. I'm now on the D2 wagon. So I guess I am also a suspect for you too?

Obviously, out of us 5, a minimum of 2 are town. Why can't it be Titus?

...

FB and Pistachion have posted a decent number of times on D2, but without really providing content to discuss, just throwaway statements. But that's not scummy?

TheCow is "super lurk". Innocent?

Cerberus hasn't voted. All game. Not once. Innocent?

AlwaysInnocent changes his reads every post. Innocent?

At this stage, my town suspicion on Cerberus is being shaken. I

do

suspect you are town, but I can't blindly agree with your read or reasoning, yet.

PEdit:

And KAAG I've said repeatedly I'm not sheeping Titus. Basically the only reads we share are scumreads on Cow and Fire and townread on Eagle.

And on D1? At what point in the game have your top 3 reads not matched hers?

[KickAssAndGiggle]

The problem with firebringer, though, is that theres absolutely no reason to think he's town. Basically zero effort out of the slot. If push comes to shove I'll vote for him, but I seriously don't see the scum in his play.

You don't think that making posts (so not lurking) but having no content and avoiding all attention is somewhat suspicious?

He's played a shed-load of games here (check his wiki), so unlikely to be "bad town". So if not "bad town", what is the reason?

[KickAssAndGiggle]

Posts:

1100
1101

I mean, what's the point of saying:

some of your logic is bad.

Without correcting it?

PEdit:

Saying "some of your logic is bad" is not content.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

Content isn't a buzzword. Content = content. Until this page, you had practically none. Which is why this wagon rolled.

I will say: I don't hate your read-list, apart from TheCow, who has similar issue to yourself.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

EBWOP:

Until this page

Until

last

page

[KickAssAndGiggle]

Droll.

If a SirCakez wagon gets rolling, I might jump on. But deadline approaching and you and Titus are the only games in town. I prefer your lynch to hers. It's that simple.

(I parked my vote on SirCakez for two days...no takers. So it seems unlikely.)

[KickAssAndGiggle]

#Oppotunistic

The #Town is debatable.

If you can persuade another two sturdy backs to help you turn that push into a roll, I'll pitch in.

However...I was on SirCakez for 2 days and posted repeatedly of my suspicion. Where were you then? A dragon/dinosaur (bit of debate about what Yoshi is) would have been handy!

[KickAssAndGiggle]

Your ISO is textbook "flying under the radar".

You had plenty of chance to vote SirCakez, but only now do you do so.

If you are town and get lynched, we have better chance of getting Titus/SirCakez tomorrow. And you "lack motivation". Yet you seem to care.

Why? Why? And...why?

[KickAssAndGiggle]

Your ISO is textbook "flying under the radar".

How the hell am I flying under the radar if I am at L-1. You dolt.

You're at L-1 because I put you there. Until this little posting spate, you were. You dolt.

This is why your vote should be on Fire KAAG.

It is. If he flips town though, it's probably you tomorrow.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

Wow, two hammers from TheCow after two days of promising to catch up and get involved and frankly not doing so.

Brazen scum or the reason we are in trouble here.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

Flavor was great!

Setup is brutal for town.

But that doesn't excuse me for being shit. Sorry for my contribution to the loss town.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

I'll translate for you:

"Sorry you were so useless KAAG"

Fair comment.

[KickAssAndGiggle]

Yep, in hindsight, one of Viva or Titus had to die D2.

And to give Titus her dues, she did say this.