Open 627: Mexican Standoff [endgame]

[Mad King Ashnard]

VOTE: Aneninen

CooCOOcooCOO CooCOOcooCOO

[Mad King Ashnard]

Hey Kuroi good to see you in this game, it's a shame how 1671 went down. I would have have never lynched you had I stayed alive!

[Mad King Ashnard]

I am Plotinus, the other guy is PhantomCobalt.

Hi!

[Mad King Ashnard]

No,

I

am Plotinus, the other guy is Wisdom.

[Mad King Ashnard]

14

kuroi -2 +3 =8 -11 =12 -==14 =39 -51 =77 | =51 =64

Aneninen R -4 ==6 -7 | =11 -14

Smudger ==3 +9 -10 | +14

acryon -3 v4 u119 R =31 | =11 =14

Persivul +=2 -10 R +316

pisskop -1 ==2 -13

plotinus = +1 +7 +8 -11 =12 +13 -=14 -443 | -577 -581 v626 =648

radiantcowbells =3 -5 -11 ✝

[Mad King Ashnard]

Scared? Perhaps. Paranoid? Sure. Upset? Maybe.

No but really he's just impatient.

[Mad King Ashnard]

This is so fun.

[Mad King Ashnard]

I mean maybe, but I would think that it's non alignment indicative.

EE did try to get you to hydra with him to teach him things after all.

Not to say he isn't scum but I'm not sure that this buddying thing holds a lot of water.

[Mad King Ashnard]

WHY ARE YOU SO LOUD?!!!

[Mad King Ashnard]

I find it odd how we're essentially a counterwagon to EE at this point.
I've seen EE take things way too personally before as town but this feels a little different.
He could be scum here, yeah.

[Mad King Ashnard]

IDK I'm not really enthusiastic about any votes at the moment.

I'll hard reread this soon.

[Mad King Ashnard]

VOTE: Adenine

Pigeon boy saying some weird things.

[Mad King Ashnard]

Yeah he's still new.

Getting a bit better though.

[Mad King Ashnard]

KT looks town, still undecided on EE.

Wanna see more from kurio.

[Mad King Ashnard]

Adenine, who are you actually scumreading?

[Mad King Ashnard]

Are you a trump supporter

because that's a nice big wall you have there

[Mad King Ashnard]

Is that narcissistic rage?

[Mad King Ashnard]

Is that narcissistic rage?

Woah that wasn't a very cool thing to say at all. I do not endorse this man's insensitive views.

[Mad King Ashnard]

Hey, Rask. How've you been?

I've been here the whole time, author of 3/4 of these posts

[Mad King Ashnard]

How have you been carrying on since 1671?

[Mad King Ashnard]

I want to policy lynch KT at this point.

[Mad King Ashnard]

Eagle, what are your reads?

[Mad King Ashnard]

Sorry for lack of investment but this game's just not interesting me much at all

I'll force myself to take this seriously if I'm around for a few more day phases.

-Gurgurant

[Mad King Ashnard]

Don't like Burning Crystal so far.

11 and 13 are the only posts with any actual scumhunting.

[Mad King Ashnard]

I need links to scum games from EE if anyone can provide.

[Mad King Ashnard]

EE we were looking for something more like a reads list, not just your top scumread.

[Mad King Ashnard]

*raises eyebrows*

[Mad King Ashnard]

lol.

[Mad King Ashnard]

VOTE: Almost50

[Mad King Ashnard]

Your claim was just terrible. Extremely unlikely and furthermore no real pgo would claim at that point of time. I mean I guess I understand now why you felt like doing that but still.

[Mad King Ashnard]

1) That wasn't me. That was Raskol.
2) That makes literally no sense. Why would we be more apt to vote you because we think you're scum than if we thought you were town if we were mafia?
Like you've set up a ridiculous 'trap' whereby you did stupid and scummy shit and got voted for it and called us scum for it.
New flash: don't do scummy shit if you don't want to be voted for doing scummy shit.

[Mad King Ashnard]

OK, how was that scummy? Walk me through this, please.

Allow me to demonstrate.

[Mad King Ashnard]

1. You are accused of acts most heinous by mr. kuroi and various other influential figures of the town.
2. You conjure up this absurd claim and expose it to us in response to being voted once (1 time).
->It is apparent you have claimed a role frivolously, furthermore one which would almost be very rarely admitted unless absolutely necessary.

A terrible claim in timing and delivery, as well as one rather hard to believe, is a rare occurrence from a townsfolk.
->These actions register in the brain as "very scummy".

[Mad King Ashnard]

Preview Edit: LOL @ RC

drybfrcxtwtertagtyesd i hate you

[Mad King Ashnard]

Your crime fighting powers?

Your technical ability is awful and your scumhunting is awful as well. You single handedly lost us the game with Soapbar and Iraonavp.

Don't even talk.

[Mad King Ashnard]

Almost50 claimed PGO at L-5.
Raskol voted him for it.
He turned that on Raskol saying that Raskol has to be WW because only a WW would know that there's no PGO ???

[Mad King Ashnard]

I think Almost is actually just really really bad.

I mean I know Almost is just really really bad but I think this is an instance of him being bad rather than scum.

Davesaz is scummier.

[Mad King Ashnard]

I think the most likely explanation is that Almost is a PR who knows that there is no PGO.

He could be some sort of scum knowing that too but I think that's more likely.

Unfortunately he doesn't know what he's doing so :\

[Mad King Ashnard]

UNVOTE:

I didn't vote him.

[Mad King Ashnard]

Because he claimed PGO at fucking l-6?

I don't fault him that vote whatsoever.

[Mad King Ashnard]

^ RC

[Mad King Ashnard]

I'm aware.

But I think Raskol's motivations for that vote are fairly clear and ascribing scum intent because 'clearly the only reason we'd vote a L-6 PGO claim is because we know it's not possible in setup and are voting the other scum faction' is absolute nonsense. I'd think it's fairly clear why Raskol voted?

[Mad King Ashnard]

RC, I hate "pretty clear" especially when I am this tired and traveling.

~Titus

Okay. But I did answer your question.

Don't overlook the original case, which came a long time before the fakeclaim trap.
MKA is uncharacteristically quiet, for either of the heads to be town.

1) Me being 'quiet' is not and has never been a scumtell. Most would consider it a towntell.
It's null at worst. I demand town leader position as scum so I can lead the lynches on people I don't like and get towncred when I bus.
I'm not invested in this game for a mix of reasons; the primary one being that I want to let Raskol lead the show since I basically monopolized the blitz we did.

meow.

[Mad King Ashnard]

I was referring to Almost when I was talking about not answering my question.

I wanna get to know Raskol.

Good night.

~Titus

*blush*

[Mad King Ashnard]

Okay, I'll try to focus this game tomorrow. A legitimate problem for me here is that this playerlist is more experienced than what I'm used to so I don't have any easy newbie sorts (kt doesnt count) and having to weigh everything vs meta ends up exhausting. Not an excuse for me not putting in enough effort though. Sorry.

[Mad King Ashnard]

VOTE: Texcat
Not finished reviewing but from who I've looked at so far I feel good about this.

[Mad King Ashnard]

-Raskolnikov

[Mad King Ashnard]

Bad replace and of everyone who voted almost50 he was most shallow about it. Weak in general and I wonder what he would be doing today if the fakeclaim didn't happen (and gave an easy target).

[Mad King Ashnard]

and my perpetual thorn in my side

Eh, I've definitely said worse about you.
As it happens I'm not scumreading Adenine, though Raskol is, so we're probably not going to vote that unless nothing else can happen.
I greatly agree with Raskol's choice in Tex. What's your read on the slot?

~

[Mad King Ashnard]

I could but my obvtown reads are pushing Anenenien.

What kind of reasoning is this?

[Mad King Ashnard]

-Rask

[Mad King Ashnard]

Or maybe you're defending your partner texcat?

[Mad King Ashnard]

Kuroi get in here. You are a man of good judgement and refined tastes; surely you will see reason.

[Mad King Ashnard]

Because bussing him will give you some towncred.

[Mad King Ashnard]

VOTE: Burning Crystal

[Mad King Ashnard]

Like seriously what the fuck titus?

[Mad King Ashnard]

You're being absurd. You don't even say that you're scumreading anen but you're voting him to sheep your townreads, and EVEN NOW you're acting like you would sheep me instead if you thought I was obvtown.

Can you take a stance? I told you why texcat was scum. What is your independent read on him?

[Mad King Ashnard]

You're blatantly defending an obvscum slot, and for what? In preference to something you don't even independently see but "oh I have to sheep my obvtowns".

Not buying it.

[Mad King Ashnard]

Exactly texcat. There's no case or reason to vote you and thus nothing to react to. You're here present and engaging.

Discrediting a valid push on someone for technical reasons. You don't even say you're townreading her.

Instead of working to persuade me, MKA jumps down my throat. It looks desperate to create a sideshow

Casting doubt while still not taking a stance. If you think its scummy then say so, don't try to discredit me otherwise. Trying to minimize my impact on the game like this while pushing anen 'based on your townreads' is scummy af.

but I have been trying not to jump down n RC slot like I do every game.

Don't use RC as an excuse not to engage me.

[Mad King Ashnard]

Alright. Let's start this by saying that the vote on you and what followed was all Raskol and not me.

I think that Adenine is town. Mostly meta read that's hard to explain, but he talks differently and does some distinctive things as scum. I haven't seen them

yet

here. I don't want to wagon him at this time. I could have literal cop innos on Davesaz and Almost50 and it wouldn't incline me whatsoever to follow their wagons. I mean, you can make your own judgements on Almost50, but I'm not particularly inclined to trust Davesaz either. I agree that A50 is town, I'm not so sure about Davesaz but there's definitely better wagons today.

Let's further exclude myself and yourself from this equation.
That leaves:

Tex
Kaintepes
Kuroi
Acryon
EE
Kop
Xtoxm
Fire Starter

I haven't been overly invested in this game and basically the only ISOs I've read are of the people that I've declared off limits in this post but I read through Tex's ISO and saw nothing that could even be construed as scumhunting from any of the 3 members of the slot. I was fine with the vote as a result.

I'm not going to take 'sheeping my townreads' as an excuse when the people in question are Davesaz and Almost50, sorry. What's your read on Texcat, and why?
If you're townreading her, who in that pile would you prefer I look over?

[Mad King Ashnard]

I'm pushing on Texcat because neither she nor any of her predecessors have done anything that can be construed as scumhunting.
Raskol's pushing on Tex because that plus he thinks there's other stuff that's scummy, but I've seen nothing worth townreading and Raskol's big on it.
It's also flat out a better wagon than any of the other major ones.

[Mad King Ashnard]

Can this be less adversarial and more suggesting alternatives?
You don't want a Tex lynch (apparently.) I don't want an Adenine lynch.
Who would you want me to look over and see if they're scum?

[Mad King Ashnard]

For all your 'RC needs to be more of a team player and spend less time strongarming his reads!' you should respect that my reads are fairly decent, and I'm more than capable of keeping Adenine by force of will if need be.
I'm not trying to make this a shouting match or a measuring contest, I just want to keep someone that I'm tentatively townreading and who will absolutely trigger my scumdar if scum alive.
AKA, I'm reaching out to you like you always say that you want me to do, albeit with Adenine completely out of bounds here. You said that you had a bunch of scumreads that weren't happening.
Who are they and why?

[Mad King Ashnard]

Texcat's recent posts don't really seem to be lacking scumhunting. This game is also likely multi ball or mafia plus SK which means every slot should be scumhunting even if scum.

...which?
She's made 8.
None of them really have any scumhunting. The closest thing is the post on Almost50 but the way she deals with his claim is odd and it strikes me as far more IIOA than anything; she talks more about him being scum for mistakes that he's made than about him being scum for any sort of scum intent. And when you say recent posts, 609 is entirely worthless until she follows up on her questions, 577 is useless, 568 is useless and feels far more like scum looking for a reason than a legitimate thought process, 485 was incredibly waffly, etc.

[Mad King Ashnard]

I agree that Almost is town.

Titus, it's not nearly about whether it's scumreading bad play or taking advantage of Derp town; I can't distinguish that. Not directly, at least.

What I

can

distinguish is that saying that's someone's scum because they were wrong about setup info in this way ought to be a visceral sort of 'THIS GUY'S LYING! HE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN' feel that gets her hot and bothered and brings out the pitchforks but Texcat feels almost apologetic in the way she's giving out the scumread. It feels extremely discordant with the post and her manner of pushing it. Not to mention that she really doesn't feel overly interested in pushing the case; Almost50 wagon lost many of its voters to different wagons, but she hasn't retracted the scumread but she hasn't commented on the lost votes either; it really doesn't feel like she's someone who is town with a legitimate scumread. She feels way more like she's just looking for someone who she can have good reasons to vote for, and that reads scum.

I'm starting to read XurioKHF now.

[Mad King Ashnard]

Like you can argue about that one post where she talks about Davesaz's vote transition and she talks to you but it really doesn't have any real town-sorting-game urgency feels to me.

The Davesaz question is utterly undirected (where is she planning to go with it?) and hasn't been followed up on as of yet, etc.

[Mad King Ashnard]

Kuroi could be scum I guess.
The drunk post felt terrible and the way he reacted in 51 felt like he actually was lying about the drunk thing.
Which gives me odd feelings.
But I wouldn't scumread him remotely for 'buddying us' when I don't think that he's been buddying us much at all. Raskol and I have both been in games with him (I called the whole scumteam within 20 minutes of replacing in ) and we both got along fairly well with him so I'm not surprised that he's being friendly with us.
There's been other scummy shit that he's done though. There were posts in my last game with him where it was super clear that he was town and trying to scumhunt, and there's not anything quite so clear in this game. Would rather he be given more time but if I had to wagon it I wouldn't mind.

VOTE: Texcat

Now That's what I wanted.

I will ride this out and see where it goes for awhile if you're willing.

*peace offering*

~Titus

If you ask someone else to give you an out like you did with Klingy in 1750 I'm going to be very suspicious of you.
Preemptive warning.

[Mad King Ashnard]

You are scumreading us?

Can you walk me thought that?

[Mad King Ashnard]

It looks like you're just pissed I am trying to bury the hatchet with someone I am scumreading.

It is to you.

Can you walk me through why are you are scumreading us?

[Mad King Ashnard]

I mean my first reflex was to think that it was a typo.

I am genuinely surprised to hear that you are scumreading us.

pedit: lol that works.

[Mad King Ashnard]

I'm always informed.

Anyone wanna take bets that this setup is multiball?

Day 1, no flips, figured it had to be multiball based on interactions around my two primary scumreads.
If you're saying you're going to vote me because I was right about something that was, at least to me, pretty effing obvious, then at least be open about saying that what you're actually saying is that I'm not good enough. Which is demonstrably wrong and consistently provable as wrong throughout my play, but hey.
Lynch me for being too good. But if you're lynching me for being too good you're agreeing to follow my reads when I flip town because clearly if I'm that good my reads are that good!

[Mad King Ashnard]

Like, does that sound conceited as fuck?
maybe.
But when your argument is essentially that I sound informed because there's

no way I figured stuff out on my own

, there's no other counterargument I can make.

[Mad King Ashnard]

I'm sketched out AF by the way Titus voted with us, declared that it was exactly what she was looking for, then unvoted and went onto something else. I reiterate that I'm not -townreading- Adenine to a great extent here but he has a few tells as scum that are near 100% accurate and I haven't seem them yet. There's definitely something to Raskol's BC/Tex scumteam idea, but Titus ALWAYS does weird things for weird reasons regardless of alignment that make her pretty damn hard to read. And I loathe the fact that she just said that she was townreading me and then immediately afterwards said that she would be willing to vote us if necessary. Just feels really bad. And like I said, the way she was talking to us was like she was dead certain that I was town; hence my surprise when she claimed to scumread us. This really doesn't jive for me.

That said, I have mislynched Titus an awfully large amount of times so I'm wary of voting her at this time and would prefer we vote Texcat.
So, will switch back if necessary since she's not a townread but there's stuff I'd rather do that would be just as informative about her alignment; I really don't think that this is white knighting here considering that she'd lose all potential town cred she'd get for it after having voted him. If Titus is scum, I'd near guarantee that Texcat is scum as well.
So, VOTE: Tex

And Kain, just shush please. Please?

[Mad King Ashnard]

Damn kuroi why you buddy me so hard this game eh?

[Mad King Ashnard]

My read on kuroi this game has consisted of "if he was scum he would be better than this right?"

[Mad King Ashnard]

I mean I wouldn't feel bad about lynching him given his play I'm just not convinced any which way. I think RC was scumreading him though? He's more familiar with.

[Mad King Ashnard]

VOTE: Burning Crystal

I feel like Titus is using different heads as an excuse to justify voting us when her behaviour towards us heavily indicated that she read us as town. Now, TN451 FINALLY shows up and it's to support voting someone that Titus can't? Like, gone the entire game but now he finally shows up and the reason is to vote someone Titus couldn't get away with?

If I'm wrong here, sorry I guess. But there's been so much nasty stuff from the slot that I can't justify not voting it to myself.

[Mad King Ashnard]

MKA being sheepish about the vote on me is also not traditional about RC in any way shape or form. If he scumreads me, he goes full tilt in. The last game we played together, he was so convinced I was scum he got us both mod killed in his dogged pursuit. He doesn't have a history of awkwardly pursuing people.

Do you remember when we argued in blitz 22 about this?

Do you remember when I didn't hammer you in that game with postie?

come now. stahp.

[Mad King Ashnard]

Fairly sure that she's not town now, yeah.

[Mad King Ashnard]

We're town yo.

I've only been mislynched on D1 once before. And that involved both BBT and Lilith.

Don't be the second.

[Mad King Ashnard]

Manipulation is a core tenet of my town play as you should be well aware, Adenine.

That was actually me, but, you know, ok.

Literally changes nothing.
Titus came out with a strong townread on me. Her hydra partner comes in with a scumread on us and votes us.
Titus is nowhere to be found.

That looks fucking horrible.

[Mad King Ashnard]

How are YOU reading this? This post is saying, "Last time I was lynched day one, I'm town and people want to vote me today. I AM TOWN." It's simply illogical.

You

honestly

think this was a genuine statement from him? No one in the world that has played more than a single game of mafia would believe that is a logical statement, so why would you think he was genuinely proposing that?

Yes, especially since I'm confident that original post came from RC and not Rask.

This makes even less sense. I have played a good handful of games with RC and he has never proposed something this asinine. No one who's played more than a game would.

Yawn.
I've played a good handful of games with you and I've never been a major candidate for a lynch facing deadline on day 1 before.
Do you agree or disagree that Titus disappearing from the game when she was scumreading me and her partner coming in and voting us is sketchy as fuck?

[Mad King Ashnard]

I'm going to super tryhard this

[Mad King Ashnard]

Oh, that's not for you. That's so I don't procrastinate and put it off. That's so I don't let everyone down again.

[Mad King Ashnard]

Classic Raskol.

Promises catchup, doesn't catch up.

rekt.

[Mad King Ashnard]

6/12

[Mad King Ashnard]

Fairly sure that she's not town now, yeah.

That was actually me, but, you know, ok.

Eh.

VOTE: Kuroi

So you're really going to let MKA get away with a self-meta exclusive defense? I don't care if he didn't mean it in earnest or whatever, it's still complete and utter horseshit and strong justification for not moving our vote ever.

I am

really

tempted to vote Fire Starter now. I still see his posts elsewhere on MafiaScum. I'm going to

ask the mod

to give him a prod and see if he can do something useful.

Fire Starter is not within prod range

Fire Starter has requested replacement.

Either flaking out as scum or leaving because of being uninterested in the game. Right now we can't decide which one.

And we won't decide, because it's a null.

I don't think we saw more than 3 posts from Fire Starter, so I'm going to go with 'uninterested'.

Am I the only one who thinks that KT is an alt and is doing this on purpose??

I don't think so, no. I feel like he is genuinely frustrated and doesn't know how to proceed. It's still null though, and could just as easily be scum frustration as town frustration.

~~~~


Oh....Oh my god.

Is KT

making a case?

~tn5421

This post is freaking awful.

[Mad King Ashnard]

So you're really going to let MKA get away with a self-meta exclusive defense? I don't care if he didn't mean it in earnest or whatever, it's still complete and utter horseshit and strong justification for not moving our vote ever.

Like this is just the worst.
This is 100% scum talking about town that they're trying to scumread.
Positive that they're scum here now.
Lynch in the pair of us. Vig or whatnot kills her overnight, lynch her if there is none.

Ranger. You should listen to me.

[Mad King Ashnard]

Okay boys, I've literally spent a good amount of last night and most of today on this game so if I'm wrong about everything I'll probably just kms.
Raskolnikov

[Mad King Ashnard]

Can you help me get pagetop though?

[Mad King Ashnard]

Screw it

Almost50-smudger

10/10 town
His play through fakeclaiming pgo and more importantly his explanation of his thought processes around this are genuine. The play itself was based on faulty logic but how he did it is almost certain to come from town, and I feel the same about his dubious logic in 806. I would hesitate more on this but he is claiming PR and rc feels the same about the claim. Earlier stuff wasn't giving me an impression at the time, looking through I don't see anything bad, in fact he said straight up he wants to sort RC first which is consistent with "I precisely picked my fake claim to be PGO to see how the Ashnard slot would react" although still ridiculously wrong as a legitimate theory/plan.

KainTepes

Actually probably town.
You're probably already familiar with the kaintepes sensation sweeping mafiascum right now. While by default he's lynchbait/policy material at this point he has enough to reasonably look past his antics and judge him to some confidence. I didn't notice at the time but at some point in the game he started using reason and lowercase, and he actually showed some amount of effort in responding to the dave vote on him. Lately his 'pushes' on xtoxm/me make some very basic level of sense and he's putting in the effort. Now why I actually think he's town is his measure and approach. For his votes this game he's never going too far in exaggerating the scumminess of what he sees but is actually moderate; he expresses that an action is suspicious but doesn't try to paint it as worse than it actually is and this is a huge part of how I see newbtown vs newbscum. His votes are independent and his actions aren't following town mentality and that actually shows some independent thought; newbscum would be far more likely to hop onto pre-existing wagons especially big ones to get the lynch but also blend in. I don't see any intention to not stand-out either, he's posting lots, not being reserved and is increasingly transparent with his thought processes. Probably spent too much time reading into kaintepes of all people but I'm pretty surprisingly pleased with him as town on the review.

KuroiXHF

Murky nullscum fluffposter
Ugh. The kuroi I saw in newbie 1671 was reasonable and eloquent, and even though it was pretty much my first game he just came off as obvtown. This game he's been entirely different with the fluff and lurking, and hilariously he closed his one post in which he put everything into and then had to rewrite it in less detail so it ends up shallow and we don't know what it would have been. Fluff afterwards until his next big post 760 which is half decent though inflated. The sheer amount of fluff actually makes the read really murky, and given his explanation for his stances is for the most part back in his shallow/lost post from midgame 381 I can't try to figure out his thought processes for what he's doing now. Really dirty nullscum in that I know he's capable of looking town but this game he's given literally no reason to think that. Would compromise here but it'd be a little bit policy.

Texcat-Sunset Illusions

obvscum
I'm rarely this confident about a read. Upon entry hands out a townread and points out a lack of scumhunting. After first skim she gives conclusions in 485, what I'm scumreading in this is her see-saw statements. "My initial read had me leaning scum on KT and EE, but I fear that was their newbiness.", "Burning Crystal has been uncharacteristical quiet, but I guess I can put that down to RL", this personally I see as a scumtell, I think scum say things like this because you look like you're paying attention, making a point and showing consideration by negating it but in the end you don't actually take a stance and it's really a nothing/low value statement which doesn't end up coming to a conclusion that they see something as towny or scummy. Minor, but in "I'd still like to hear from Almost50 who seemed to take an easy vote on my slot." I think she should call it out as scummy if she thinks it is or ask almost directly for the reason rather than say to the town that she wants to hear more from him. 562 has another tell of mine, the midpost vote-unvote-vote which I think town wouldn't do in this case. This post is a some fluff, some half-hearted setup spec comment, and a vote on almost that lacks any sort of conviction. "Looks more like a fake claim from scum to me." "I think he's scum who was getting nervous and at least wanted to learn something about town prs if he was going to be lynched." she doesn't go into why she thinks its fake, her reasoning that he wanted to learn something about town prs before he'd get lynched is asinine as almost wasn't in that much danger of a lynch before this event, and in general I think her approach here is shallow. I would expect town to think beyond fake claim = has to be scum, and especially texcat if she was town should have brought up almost's "easy vote" on her earlier as a somewhat legitimate reason that she would scumread almost off of, but she doesn't mention that again. Almost makes a mistake in his setup spec and tex says its scummy because "I would expect the real Bodyguard to be more familiar with the scenarios he was in." She leaves almost alone as town mentality shifted away from his wagon, doesn't push that anymore and later comments "I have a scum read on Almost50 for the two fake claims, but will give him another day." which is a little absurd as she thinks almost50 is scum lying about his bodyguard claim as well but doesn't think it's worth pursuing. If she said he backed off because she couldn't garner the support for the lynch that would make sense but actually changing your mind and acting as if its your decision he's not getting lynched doesn't really. In the readslist 761 the reads are fairly weak, and all the realistic lynches of the day she has as null or scum and she's fine PLing kt and fire starter. What's actually substantial is the way she goes about it. Going through everyone town/null she goes to kuroi and me as scum but barely justifies her kuroi scumread and and has a very weak vote on me. Her reasoning is that the case on her is wrong (doesn't explain or say why its wrong), we're "going for an easy target" (she considers herself an easy target?), and that we have a lot of fluffy posts and had a lack of interest earlier in the game. She doesn't say why these things are alignment indicative but rather points out the obvious (earlier fluff and lack of interest) as if its that simple, and she hasn't said anything that makes me think she believes what she's saying. All throughout she never persues her leads rather than just stating a reason and leaving her vote; all of the questions she's actually asked the entire game have been to unrelated people about unrelated things as well as most of her statements. Kaintepes shows more consideration and depth of thought in his reads than texcat this game, and texcat has since that vote bounced back to making nothing/harmless questions and comments.

The replacing out of SI was somewhat alignment indicative in that I think it's more likely someone would be overwhelmed on the replace in as a scum than as town since it wasn't that far into the game, but this is minor either way. What's worse is the SI post itself is really a nothing post with a slight newbie scumtell in that he calls eagle a 'noobtown mislynch' which is an absurd judgement for a newbie to make, and its right after he (not really subtly) encourages people to push him.

Acryon

strong town
Active and clear in his reasoning but somewhat detached which makes it hard to feel strongly about him one way or another. Had him at weak town just for not doing anything scummy and town perspectives in how he approached almost50 and the setup spec. I ended up meta'ing him. Used primarily 628, 621, 585 for town and 588 and somewhat 1643(older) for mafia, I may or may not have used ongoing games as well. I'm not sure how much I want to express here so I'll summarize. If he played more often I'd probably keep this more to myself.
town
-cautious but involved early
-doesnt necessarily justify every vote
-reconsiders, not sticky with reads.
-usually scumhunts with reason, sometimes uses feel though: x "feels town" "doesnt feel town"
scum
-ignores the thread going-ons early, talks about something useless
-sticky with vote, doesn't really push
-fluff and active lurking
-see-saw statements, X is bad but is it AI? muddled posts which don't draw concls/stances
-exaggerates

From this game he's a lot more town, or at least avoiding anything I've seen him do as scum. He was a bit sticky on his anen vote but he had v/la and also blamed the thread for being full of ee/kt spam. I haven't seen him fluff, active lurk, go too far/exaggerate something for a read, or see-saw his statements. Rather they've been pretty relevant and useful, and some of his posts I really feel come from a town perspective. Stance on the almost/dave/bc/mka thing and then voting kop is believable.

Burning Crystal (tn5421 & Titus)

probably scum. really weird.
There's a lot of weird factors which make this read not fun and I'd feel kind of bad if she takes this lynch personally esp to RC. Early play was being on KT which was at least partially policy, vote change to EE based on KT getting better was a little weird. Early/mid play was low on scumhunting and lurky in general; while titus was busy the other head didn't step in. Really became active as of the almost fake-claim, though wasn't particularly involved. This is where things get weird. Asks about my texcat vote, I answer it. She sheeps dave onto anen (dave was her previous scumread/vote) and in response to being asked about texcat she says she could vote it but her obvtown reads (dave,acryon?) are pushing anen and that tex isn't likely to give a reaction. That her scumreads aren't getting traction and she's not explicity townreading anen but we need wagons. This is actually an absurd response. She implies she has scumreads (what scumreads?) but they aren't going anywhere and so she's sheeping her obvtown reads onto anen who she doesn't actually say she finds scummy but just that she's not "explicitly townreading" him. That she would be willing to vote texcat but she doesn't want to because it wouldn't give a reaction and she would rather sheep her obvtowns, rather than saying she sees texcat as scummy or not. The original question was about her read on texcat but instead of giving a read it sounds like she's giving weird excuses as to why she's voting the way she is and doesn't vote otherwise, and actually making it out as though she doesn't have that much of a choice in the matter. She asks again why we voted tex/ why tex is scum though I did say why, and asks why we're trying to counterwagon anen (though my vote on tex was before dave/bc's anen vote so it would suggest the opposite). That's weird, but what's scummy is the suggestion of "IF you want me to follow you, you'll need to convince me that either a) texcat is scum or b) you're townier.", which implies that she would sheep US on something she doesn't see if we were townier. Basically still making no judgement as to whether texcat is actually town or scum and just continuing to act as though she can only sheep and if we were townier she would sheep us onto tex. These really bizarre excuses and deflection when really we were just asking her for her read on tex, trying to learn WHY she thought as she did but she just kept justifying her actions. Says to tex "There's no case or reason to vote you and thus nothing to react to." and still doesn't venture a town/scum judgement on the slot. Finally admits to nullreading tex. I can't understand the town motivation why someone would defend so hard a slot they aren't even townreading. As town if I'm null on a slot I'm generally not against its lynch, but why she's so against this when she doesn't feel strongly about another lynch (sheeping her obvtowns onto something she's not convinced on) is inexplicable. She brings up multiball to tex's credit "Texcat's recent posts don't really seem to be lacking scumhunting. This game is also likely multi ball or mafia plus SK which means every slot should be scumhunting even if scum." which is absurd again, and defends her post in 622. Finally in 626 she apparently either agrees with us or is townreading us a bit because she does vote texcat and suggests we stop fighting. She says she isn't scumreading us in 637. In response to anen voting BC she votes back, suggests she is neither scumreading nor townreading us, and then scumreads the kuroi/us interaction to vote kuroi. Other head comes in and is scumreading us but not kuroi, votes (how do they think the kuroi/us interaction is scummy but end up scumreading the opposite people in it?), and titus is letting the other head cover. I can't judge the RC/titus meta interaction or the hydra situation too much. I do think that her defense of texcat was ridiculously bad as well as the sheeping and trying to avoid taking responsibility for her actions. I haven't seen any personal scumhunting she's done this game and little original explanations/motivations for her votes. The only thing is that the weird extra factors going on in our exchange leave some doubt, plus I don't know her and RC apparently misreads her a fair bit so there is an outside chance they were just acting really strange as town. Rather lynch tex tbh.

Kop

Mild Town
Pretty odd style, strange in general. Emotionally distant and seems to play on reasoning rather than any gut or feelings. Checked that it was standard for him early into the game. His cases and analysis makes sense (EE overreacting, kt, bc, kro iso) though he doesn't go out of his way to find depth in his justifications. I thought the EE unvote was weird, how he handled SI 337, and I don't like his interaction with EE becoming purely defensive (375,427). He never explicitly changed his mind about EE and I don't see how their exchange would get kop to townread him so I don't know if he stopped pursuing that because he was getting too much pressure for it or if he actually changed his mind about him; usually if someone is making a huge case case on you that you disagree with you'll at least mention what you think about them. Wasn't sure about him so I had to meta. Used open 615 and mini 1665 for town (few recent town games), and 621, 614 for mafia.
overall
-shallow vote reasoning
town
-flexible voting
-more engagement
-low justification
scum
-explains his motivations a lot more
-makes things appear scummier than they are
-see-saws
-sticky votes and low engagement, low follow-up

For the most part this is closer to his town games. Decent engagement and fairly straightforward in points. Didn't overly justify his reads or vote motivations until questioned (towny in this case), but was way too defensive vs EE. I did like the vote on titus and his questions there. Some of his comments are actually insightful and he's putting work in to follow-up his reads, overall okay for town. I think stylistically it's harder to be sure either way about someone detached like this since feeling and how convinced someone sounds are a big part of reading someone.

Chilledtea-Extrapolated Eagle

moderate town
I've mostly ignored EE because as a player I find his style really frustrating. I think in general he draws big conclusions from shallow or straight up faulty reasoning and is pretty stubborn about it as well, and he expresses himself in giant quote walls that take ages to trudge through. This game as well was the emotional overreaction which was annoying and actually ridiculous considering it was just from him misinterpreting a post. He was wrong to overreact to BC and he was wrong in defending himself (163,177) but I couldn't see it as that AI. Push on Kop was okay. 317 feels genuine, can't be bothered trying to make sense of the rest of his actions. Don't understand the replace out at all. Weaktown for EE, the Chilledtea though. I love newbies. Readslist is okay but not that different from town mentality (the only really different thing is having kuroi at town). 705 is better, since then he's changed to BC and tex though him pulling back his kop scumread for 'participation' is a bit weird. Nothing that stands out too much as scummy. I think if he's scum it'll show with more content so this isn't too concerning right now.

xtoxm

Dubious Town
Very little content especially in the first week of the day, he somehow gives literally everyone (incl me) town vibes. I'm wary of him getting a free pass from his playstyle but going back no one really questioned or pressured him so it's not as if he was ignoring anyone either. I wish I could analyse this in more depth and decide one way or the other with some confidence but he's an experienced player with a lurk meta and I feel like it might not be the best use of time. 646 is insightful and his post with most content 777 reads good but in retrospect I should have engaged him early-mid (too late now) if I wanted a read to feel sure about. I feel like I could be being fooled by this man but its probably too late in the day to do anything about him.

davesaz

Moderate Town PR Softer
My last game I mistakenly scumread him for sheeping town and heavy lurking to find out he was PR. Honestly having been looking too hard at him this game. Decent kop and Titus vote, poorly explained vote on me and a retaliatory vote on anen because he didnt like anen's case on him. He's different from the towngame I saw but considering his play was really bad in that game I don't think it really makes sense to suspect him for being better either. Not a consideration for today because of the PR soft but I agree with xtoxm that softing like this is dangerous because it gives him flexibility if hes scum fakeclaiming. If I think about it softing PR to save almost doesn't make that much sense from scum unless he's partner with almost but that's still a bit of reach, and even as scum softing as pr could still get you killed if we have SK/WW. Town for now but if he's still alive later in the game he has to be looked at again.

Aneninen

Trying to rely on RC to read him. I've been mixed on him from the combination of weird things, insight and fluff/jokes. Don't really have the stamina to overview at this point. RC says he's moderate-strong town and that he'll know his alignment 100% if we get to d2/3.

Ranger-Fire Starter-Persivul

?
Persivul/fire haven't done wrong, FS's catchup notes were decent. Now, ranger. I know from blitz 21 she's a really good town player and I'm a little worried how much that translates into scum for her. The replace was pretty recent and I'm not sure how much I can read into a list of brackets so there isn't much to judge right now. I thought 845 might have a really minor tell in the smiley disable but a quick look disproves that. The most I can say is that attempting to divert the main wagons especially the one on me (town) is more likely from town simply because scum wouldn't have much reason to stick their neck out. A scum could be apathetic or pick a side but scum ranger redirecting the lynch would be unlikely bussing on scum kuroi and would make her look bad on town kuroi. I don't think the being nk'd talk is AI.

{ Almost50, Kaintepes } Town
{ EE, acyron, anen(rc) } Mostly Town
{ Dave, Kop } Weak Town
{ Xtoxm, Ranger } unsorted
{ Burning Crystal, Kuroi } probably scum?
{ Texcat } scum

[Mad King Ashnard]

VOTE: Texcat

[Mad King Ashnard]

VOTE: Burning crystal

fixed.

[Mad King Ashnard]

T_T

[Mad King Ashnard]

VOTE: Kuroi

I don't have the time or the health to put together a long ass wall like one of the heads of Mad King has done. I just don't. I can actually highlight reasons why I am town and give reads. I am getting wagoned for unifying town wards scum lynches and it sucks. I am tired of being wagoned for telling town the smart play. I encourage town to try and unify, using my vote in that manner and I get wagoned for being too agreeable. This wouldn't be a problem if Anen was town. It just wouldn't.

Then the wagon really takes off when I highlight mka and kuroi are scum. Not a coincidence.

No one else said let's get town to unify but me. Scum are doing jack shit but flood the game and refuse to vote each other. I have found 3 of them.

Almost50 and Dave are obviously town. Same with Xtoxm. If we could please get behind one of my three suspects. I would like to think there's some hope for us and that site meta doesn't encourage just sitting on your ass.

~Titus

We're not scum. stahp.
You might be though.

[Mad King Ashnard]

ayy let's lynch little miss have-my-partner-vote-me-right-after-I-declared-a-townread-on-you.

[Mad King Ashnard]

VOTE: Burning Crystal

[Mad King Ashnard]

I haven't spoken with RC about this game since Day 1 but I know we agree on BC scum. Anen he was townreading and I'm honestly not sure what to make of, I'll probably get around to isoing him at some point.

[Mad King Ashnard]

I'm leaning scum on BC but I'm potentially willing to give her the benefit of the doubt for now. Still not a huge fan of the Adenine wagon.

Ranger, why Acryon?

[Mad King Ashnard]

What can I say?

Still want BC dead, don't really feel the anen wagon. Honestly still reeling from the texcat flip, ordinarily I'd talk with RC though I haven't seen him on skype for like a week now. Could also settle for kop at this point.

[Mad King Ashnard]

prodge
activity coming at some point etc

[Mad King Ashnard]

Still letting Raskol take the reins here.

[Mad King Ashnard]

Something something lynch titus.

[Mad King Ashnard]

Actually, Titus, RC head has absolutely nothing to do with why we're voting you.

This is Raskol's game. He's been lurksacking it lately so I might catch up and do stuff but I'm mostly here to bounce reads off and to make sure he doesn't get mislynched.

[Mad King Ashnard]

Hey Ranger,

This has basically been the entire game.

And I'm sick of it.

~tn5421

You guys so fucking started it.
I was perfectly happy to not go near her for a while until YOU came in and voted us after Titus townread me.

[Mad King Ashnard]

Ranger, consider Almost50 confirmed town.

What are your reads in this game?

[Mad King Ashnard]

Kuroi claims jailer?
Please find me where Kuroi claimed jailer.

And yeah, I don't like Kop much at all. I'm semi-townreading Ranger and I'd basically follow her vote anywhere.
Will vote him pending more info on Kuroi's jailer claim.

[Mad King Ashnard]

Ok literally forget about 1358.
Like I said, I haven't been reading, and I got confused as to how the setup worked.

VOTE: Kop

[Mad King Ashnard]

I was townreading Adenine but some of his more recent posts have given me icky feelings.

Still not a priority.

[Mad King Ashnard]

I know that you hold me in the highest respect such that you think that any errors or uninvestment that I make must be deliberate scum maneuvering, but I assure you that I've been barely reading this game. You know / should know full well that I'm not invested. This was originally conceived of as Raskol-leads RC supports and prevents us getting mislynched to the best of my ability. Raskol hasn't been able to get engaged with this game in the meantime so now I'm taking over leading the slot. I was unaware that Kuroi had died or what his flip had been. Explain to me what you think my scum motivation for playing dumb here in this manner would be.

I have my own tell for you. Besides in the first game we played together, every time that you've tried to use our relationship against me you've been scum and every time you've been scum you have used our relationship against me. You are going to lengths to do so in this game that are unprecedented from you. I did not vote you; Raskol did. I have not been the one to make any votes this game besides for 1) the Kop vote and 2) the vote where I appealed directly to you to get us both onto the same wagon because I didn't want fighting.
Also, this feels really hard like soft defending of the Kop slot and will lead to me pretty damn interested in you with a scumflip. You've tried to seek two different CWs in your last vote and pushed me off shit.

I've seen that kind of white knight. Oh, and for the record, Tex was never a major scumread of mine; you were though. And you didn't really try to keep Tex alive like you usually do as town. Maybe you learned from Klingon in that stupid game, maybe you're changing things up: but I have genuine reasons to scumread you. You don't have the reverse. stop.

[Mad King Ashnard]

I think Kop is more likely than not scum.

Not a super strong read but I'm happy with this lynch, especially as a compromise vote.

[Mad King Ashnard]

Hey Titus, I'm not going to just follow you for no reason, especially when you're being the way you are.

persuade me.

[Mad King Ashnard]

Neither scum nor the remaining townies are interested in the aforementioned wagon for various reasons.

[Mad King Ashnard]

Who are you referring to and what posts?

[Mad King Ashnard]

This is a really weird and indirect way to push a wagon, Titus.

[Mad King Ashnard]

That's a really sketchy thing to say.

Mafia isn't that simple and you know it. Maybe he's scum

But in order to convince me of that you need to get through several layers of things preventing

1) Adenine is normally a slimy, leading git as scum. Like, you can palpably taste the icky manipulation of the gamestate and it makes you feel physically nauseous to read it.
Find instances of him misrepresenting things with scum intent and you'll have my interest. At this time, I've seen none of it except for one minor instance in a recent post but it doesn't outweigh my townread there.

2) I genuinely think that Kop is a reasonably good wagon here. It's close to deadline, there's enough votes, he's not fighting the lynch in a fairly scummy way, and I like most of the voters on the wagon. Why is Adenine worth doing over Kop today? Do you have an independent townread or scumread on Kop? if so, why?

3) I don't really townread you either. This 'back to basics' approach that you're taking here falls into the classic 'generalizing' scumtell whereby you're calling someone's behaviour or actions in general scummy as opposed to them themselves scummy. You've admitted that you're an emotional scumhunter, you know full well that I'm emotional; why do you think it would benefit either of us to remove our strongest skill from our skillset?
I mean yes, logically if those things were true and that's all that there was to the situation it could be seen as confirming him as scum. But both of us know full well that scum don't always make the easiest plays.
Perhaps they know that Adenine is town, see him as obvtown and feel like they'll get chastised for jumping on the wagon. Perhaps anything.

I don't see him as individually scum. No associatives: find scumminess in his play. Particularly look for 1).

[Mad King Ashnard]

I'm not OMGUSing you. I see clear holes in your play and have since D1 and have been very clear about them.

I will reread Adenine again.

[Mad King Ashnard]

Like I'm having serious issues taking the prospect of you being town here seriously which is colouring all of our interactions.

[Mad King Ashnard]

Still think that Adenine is town.
I want to do a hard Ranger reread at some point.
I think I sort of just assumed she was town. Not saying I'm scumreading her all of a sudden but I want to clarify that read.

I'll do that overnight.