Open 629: C9++ (Game over!)

[acryon]

{Nahdia}
{TheSoldier}
{Masquerade, Klingoncelt}
{Creature}

VOTE: Ranger

[acryon]

No questions for me?

Ah, I'll see if I can comment on anything else in a couple of hours, then, when I'll have a tiny bit more time.

Any posts pinging you thusfar?

[acryon]

@GNMG: What exactly strikes you as newbie from me?

Your perspective on the game.
It's not meant poorly; we were all new once, and Newbs can be and are just as good as anyone else.

I'm not new, but I don't consider myself a superawesome mafiaplayer either. So I'm curious what perspective you mean, I want to get better so I can actually be a superawesome mafiaplayer.


Acryon, talk to me more about your vote on Ranger.

I didn't like the immediate readslist. Feels like faux-content, so seemed like a fine place to park a vote for the moment. Was hoping he would engage me on it, but that's ok.

[acryon]

Any posts pinging you thusfar?

Hey Willow, can I call you Willow? Do you have any reads so far you'd like to share?

I like what Ranger has been doing. Pretty original RVS strategy.

I'm not sure Ranger's is just an RVS strategy. Only game I've played with him he came in late-game doing that.

[acryon]

I'm not sure Ranger's is just an RVS strategy.

This is true. I do it regardless of game stage, RVS just so happens to be the time where not giving any reasons is the most beneficial.

Yeah, I actually really like this.

UNVOTE:

Ranger as much as I enjoy your vague teasing, what you're doing would be really easy to fake as scum. We have no way of judging the sincerity of your reads.

The whole point of them is to get reactions, which he has successfully done.

VOTE: Creature

[acryon]

So voters, make a real case against me and I'll answer.

Much of your content has been questioning why you're being voted. Ignore it for now and scumhunt. Let someone else play devil's advocate with Ranger, because it comes across as overly defensive from you.

[acryon]

So voters, make a real case against me and I'll answer.

Much of your content has been questioning why you're being voted. Ignore it for now and scumhunt. Let someone else play devil's advocate with Ranger, because it comes across as overly defensive from you.

Are you saying I can't point out someone who was been accusing me?

You can, but you seem a little too concerned about someone placing a vote on you this early in the game.

[acryon]

What if creature is trying to scumhunt via judging the sincerity of the scumreads on him? Often a scumread on themselves is a good starting point for town forming because they KNOW it's wrong.

I think there are different ways to do that than what he is doing.

@Ranger

What about me? And what makes you confident we're both scum?

@Klingon

Is there something else you find her list wrong other than you being pointed as scum?

This post specifically reads bad to me. Almost all of his posts are in reference to the vote on him, but he doesn't seem to actually be looking for scum, especially since he's already mentioned he doesnt really think Ranger is scum. Why do you care if a townie thinks you're scum? Especially at this point?

[acryon]

I want to know the reasonings so I can work with them.

Why do you need to work with them so much? I think there are other things you could be addressing that you don't have a separate vested interest in. But you only seem concerned with ensuring you're not being voted.

[acryon]

I want to know the reasonings so I can work with them.

Why do you need to work with them

so much

? I think there are other things you could be addressing that you don't have a separate vested interest in. But you only seem concerned with ensuring you're not being voted.

So much? Well, I like to work with reads and see how they match. Hope you're okay with that.

I am, but surely you understand that your town motive of scumhunting gets a little cloudy when the apparent sole target of your questioning is someone voting for you.

[acryon]

It's a bit difficult to scum hunt now seeing how most of the players barely posted anything out of RVS.

There are plenty of players that have posted enough non-RVS content to create some questions for you.

[acryon]

Still, I don't feel it's enough. I have some opinions, but they're not very accurate.

I have a weird feeling on Kop, all his posts are questions, some might be scum hunting, others might be an aim for town cred.
TheSoldier has been mostly asking questions the entire game, but I don't see them as an attempt to get town cred.
I am not really sure on Nahdia, some of her posts seem to be aiming to please some of us.
KainTepes going silent very sudden is strange however.
I have no opinion on Masquere, although, some of his posts seemed town-intended, some not.

p-edit: I'll point what I feel about GoodNightMsGreen on my next post.

And I get why you're asking about the vote on you, but all of this seems far more likely to draw out scum than you getting tangled in Ranger's seemingly naked vote.

Of Kop, Nahdia, and Masquere, who you mentioned all seemed to possible be trying to gain town-cred with their posts, which do you feel is most likely scum at this point?

[acryon]

I agree on GoodNightMsGreen, especially seeing them all together.

VOTE: GoodNightMsGreen

[acryon]

It's interesting that you say you agree with Creature about our alignment when Creature never actually stated a point about our alignment.

His thoughts on your alignment seemed clear.

[acryon]

It's interesting that you say you agree with Creature about our alignment when Creature never actually stated a point about our alignment.

His thoughts on your alignment seemed clear.

Weird that he wasn't willing to go whole hog, call us Scum or vote us, right?

Eh his play seems to be of someone who clearly doesn't just throw their vote around. My vote was also sort of an invitation for him to vote since this seemed to be the case.

Did you read the spoiler or did I answer that post for no real reason? It's not as if it was an intellectual exercise.

I didn't see it actually but now I did. The responses were what I would expect from either alignment, and the part I took the biggest issue with evidently belonged to Blue.

[acryon]

The naked vote on Willow in 70 gels with "someone who doesn't just throw their vote around"?

OK.

Most people deviate from their playstyle during RVS. Come on.

[acryon]

You think we were still in RVS at the end of p3?

VOTE: Willowmeadow

What's the reason for this vote?

RVS

Creature was at least.

[acryon]

Or he just said he was because he forgot why he was going to say he voted her.

Is this what you think? You didn't seem to have an issue with it at the time.

[acryon]

Klingon saying she's super town when she has no posts of substance reads like fake town bluster. How can anyone be confused that they're scumread when all of their posts are fluff?

Creature's case on GoodNight is weak. The PL point acts like wanting a policy lynch is a scumtell (it isn't). I'm not even sure what he means by "buddying" in 139. The rest is fluff put there to make the case seem more substantial. It's as if he started with a desire to scumread GoodNight and went through their posts looking for stuff to make them look bad - a manufactured read, in other words.

The case is bad to the point that I don't like Acryon buying into it so easily. What's even scummy about GN? How does what Creature said suggest that at all?

@Acryon: What did you find so convincing about 139?

VOTE: Creature <-- L-2

Is the case worse than the mostly non-existent one on Creature? Is it great? No, but we are also on page 7 and it's better than any other leads at the moment.

78 reads really badly. Faux-content. 62 is also bad, and looks very much like buddying a townie or preemptively defending a scum-partner.

[acryon]

78 reads really badly. Faux-content. 62 is also bad, and looks very much like buddying a townie or preemptively defending a scum-partner.

You had problems with 78 but not 137?

Seriously?

Yeah seriously. 78 ultimately said nothing and took no stance. 137 actually made claims and took stances. 78 is much more likely to come from scum, since it keeps you out of the spotlight and doesn't cause too many waves.

[acryon]

VOTE: Willowmeadow

PEdit: Why Creature

Creature, there's a question for you in 71

Our next post was 78.

Just for reference, since nobody seems able to actually read the game.

p-edit:

w h a t

Now I'm going to have to analyse this, aren't I? Stop making yourself look worse.

Thankfully I don't care much about what you think I look like; I care about finding scum and that's about it.

[acryon]

In post 78, I take the following stances:

Ranger is Town. Masquerade is Town. Soldier is Town, probably, but I need to check tone on that before I fully commit.

I make the following implications:

Creature could be Scum because I don't have a read on him at a point when I should have a read on him. Kop could be Scum for being underwhelming, but he could just be busy, so I'll reserve judgement.

In post 137, Creature takes the following stances:

Masquerade is either Town or Scum.

He makes the following implications:

(and I'm being really generous with a couple of these)
Kop might be scumhunting Town or he might be towncred-hunting Scum. Soldier doesn't seem to be hunting for towncred so may be Town. Nahdia could maybe possibly be buddying some of us which may mean she's Scum. Kain went suddenly quiet, so maybe Scum.


And I'll note here that 78 is at the top of p4 while 137 is in late-middle p6, which means Creature had 2.5 more pages of info to use yet still did less.

I'll say it again, stop making yourself look worse.

p-edit: oh you poor thing

Your analysis is interesting because looking at 78, it looks a lot more like lean-town, lean-town, null, null, null. it's also worth noting that Creature's points at the very least strike up reactions and discussion because they make harsh claims; yours were soft and did not create many reactions.

[acryon]

Creature's "reads" make no harsh claims whatsoever,

that's my entire point

.

The point of a readslist isn't usually "reactions."

--
Also, come to notice, I can actually answer your following concern better with your own words:

78 reads really badly. Faux-content. 62 is also bad, and looks very much like buddying a townie or preemptively defending a scum-partner.

Is this what you think? You didn't seem to have an issue with it at the time.

I think that depends on the readslist, but I would say reactions is the point of it a lot of the time. Reactions do a lot, especially for pushing lean-reads one way or the other. I also think people trying to gain town-cred

is

a harsh claim.

I wasn't looking at it at the time. Keep in mind I also never said that was a bad reason. I don't ask questions rhetorically; I ask them to gain information.

(interestingly the people who reacted to my readslist were the people who were actually on it, rather than random bystanders who are trying too hard to prop me up)

Do you think I'm trying really hard to prop Creature up?

[acryon]

I do.

For what purpose?

[acryon]

I do.

For what purpose?

Surely that's pretty evident?

I would expect a vote if you're implying what I think you are. Put your money where your mouth is.

[acryon]

Is the case worse than the mostly non-existent one on Creature? Is it great? No, but we are also on page 7 and it's better than any other leads at the moment.

78 reads really badly. Faux-content. 62 is also bad, and looks very much like buddying a townie or preemptively defending a scum-partner.

Not so fast. You said you agreed with his case. I'd like to know which parts you agreed with, and why.

I agreed with his apparent suspicions, and liked some of the posts he highlighted. Again, was this a rock-solid out-of-the-park case? Nope, but 1) it resonated enough with me to earn my vote, and 2) I believe it's better than town's alternatives. I already mentioned the parts I particularly agreed with and commented on them myself. I don't feel the need to repeat myself in that respect.

[acryon]

So let me get this straight. You think I called out Creature (a widely scumread player) and let him post something just so I could immediately sheep what you believe to be an obviously bad vote and case. This is your assessment of what's happening? Point me to the scum-motivation in that, because that's what we're looking for if you and I are aligned.

[acryon]

Anyway a case for Creature town would really help him out if you could put it to his voters ɀefiend

Burden of proof is on the accuser, especially day 1, where it is very hard to see who is town because there is less information/time available for scumhunting to work with.

[acryon]

I don't think the speed of the wagon and lack of resistance necessarily implies there is scum on it, but I do think it implies it's probably on town.

[acryon]

And ftr zefiend, I did a very small sample of wagon momentum and found that wagons on Scum actually go faster on average in terms of both time and posts, so that's not a good reason to townread anyone.

Give real data and sample size or this is wholly irrelevant.

[acryon]

Like I said, very small sample, should be taken with a grain of salt. I have literally no time to chase down the data but maybe when I get back.

Well then you should know that your small sample is essentially useless and shouldn't be taken at all, even with a grain of salt. The only reason I'm being so harsh on this is because people shouldn't be buying into this counter-narrative when there just isn't the evidence to support it.

[acryon]

Hi Nahdia
KainTepes should always be lynched D1
VOTE: KainTepes

I know it's RVS, but wanting to policy lynch?

It should be obvious why one would want KainTepes to be policy lynched from his posting style. For some reason, Creature can't see it.

I don't think Creature can't see it; he just appears to principally disagree with policy lynches, as do I.

Is there a point towards those few posts, Creature, Kaintepes?

I don't see any agitation that your putting out there, KT.

I think you can ignore him, he will always post like this. However he does try to win the game, in his own way I think ...

~BlueTrin

What? You'll now completely ignore KainTepes? This looks like a big trace of buddying.

Now in the same post you accuse me of buddying him ??? WTF Creature, get a grip and stop fighting yourself !

This seems like a clear example of stream of consciousness posting hence the "now" from him in the second post. It indicates there is a state being changed.

Acryon's ISO seems to be almost dedicated to defending Creature.

Like I said, very small sample, should be taken with a grain of salt. I have literally no time to chase down the data but maybe when I get back.

Well then you should know that your small sample is essentially useless and shouldn't be taken at all, even with a grain of salt. The only reason I'm being so harsh on this is because people shouldn't be buying into this counter-narrative when there just isn't the evidence to support it.

This could as well apply to Creature points ?

Really? You were trying to push a

data-based

point and I simply called you out for not having the data to push it. That's very different than simply trying to perpetuate a story based on anecdotes. Data-based claims are easily challenged and dismissed, anecdotal ones are not.

And to be clear, I don't actually feel one way or the other about Creature, but I attack bad wagons; it's what I do. I also try to look at these bad wagons and put some pressure on people strongly in favor of them, since at worst it helps us improve as a town and at best helps us out scum. I think what I've done has brought far more out than the initial push on Creature, which is great especially when information is so lacking, but you can thank me later for that.

[acryon]

I think you didn't read my post because I signed ~BlueTrin. I will let GM reply about her own data. I am not sure whether to thank you, because Creature is still evading the points of my posts above, maybe you want to oblige him ... you know ... so you can show that you are actually impartial and not buddy with him ?

Spoiler:

I'm sorry but I'm not going to treat you like two players when you signed up as one. I'm going to treat you like the one slot you are and you two can figure out how to navigate that.

Is the point to simply get reactions out of Creature? Or out of everyone?

[acryon]

Nice way to evade the question, so I will take it you accept the fact that you will leave this point unanswered: in the same post he accuses me of wanting to policy lynch KainTepes and wanting to buddy him at the same time.

Right after this, you vote me and defend Creature.

It's fine by me if you are one sided and only question me/us rather than getting points on both sides.

I have and will continue to asks questions and prod where I think it's most valuable. It was also less about defending Creature and more about attacking a dumb wagon that was moving far too quickly with no resistance.

[acryon]

Anyway a case for Creature town would really help him out if you could put it to his voters ɀefiend

Burden of proof is on the accuser, especially day 1, where it is very hard to see who is town because there is less information/time available for scumhunting to work with.

Regardless would it not help?

Of course but I'm saying it likely doesn't exist, since it's generally easier to paint a scum-case than a town-one.

[acryon]

@Mod: V/LA until Monday morning CST.

[acryon]

@Mod: V/LA until Monday morning CST.

WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP VANISHING,,

I vanish every weekend

[acryon]

I have no flips in other games so it's impossible that she's looked at my games and found differences between what i do as town and what i do as scum. literally impossible, because she has no way of knowing what alignment i am in any single one of my games.

yes, i do think casual mudslinging which has is literally a lie is an alignment tell.

just gonna prod dodge from here on out. enjoy talking in circles.

I am not a fan of using meta at all. In fact, I never use it. That being said, Kling

feels

town here, although there is still a direct question that needs answering.

@Kling: If you weren't able to find any town games of Nadhia, are you saying that this game looks like her other scum games? Do we know that this isn't just her play as any alignment since we haven't seen a town one to compare?

[acryon]

I've decided to not talk unless I'm spoken to.

(prodge)

Then do us a favor and replace out.

[acryon]

The only thing I hate more than meta-reads is when people make up meta-reads. Take a look at those marathon games I was in. My posting was not sparse nor was I particularly angry in them. I was scum in all of them. And yet she says I'm "more sparse and angry as scum" despite having no town games to relate that to. So really, she was just describing me this game: "sparse and angry". Which, fine, I can accept being scumread for that. But since you've actually found a difference between those marathon games and this game, and I was scum in all of those games, it stands to reason that if anything, your metaread should be that I'm town here. Because I'm acting different than how I acted when I was scum.

Meta continues to be a bad way to read someone, ESPECIALLY when you're not in games with that person and didn't get to experience it first hand. But Klingoncelt went a step further and tried to frame my meta as an excuse to scumread me when that defies all logic. She made a statement that implies knowledge she could not possibly have. She made a logical leap that I don't believe a person with pure intentions would ever ever make. She tried to use the excuse of "meta" to throw shade at me when truly I don't believe she would have come to those conclusions as town. I caught scum.

Hard to disagree with this. Still waiting to hear from Kling's response for some clarity.

[acryon]

The acryon-GoodNightMsGreen fight is boring.

Still like the Creature pressure.

So there's been a lot of posting.
Nahdia's points against Klingoncelt feel good, but other than that, there's nothing worth commenting on.

There is nothing new worth responding to.

Glad to have you in the game thinking nothing is worth talking about.

VOTE: Ranger

[acryon]

Ok heard back from mod. Will participate awaiting further word.

Give me a moment to get back into this. Will isoread and post reads later tonight.

I think Nahdia and Klingon both make good points. I agree very much with Nahdia that meta'ing someone when only one alignment is available isn't worth that much. There is nothing to compare with, at least not that we're allowed to talk about. However, I can understand someone could genuinely believe they caught scum based on only one aligment games like Klingon did. Or maybe Klingon exxaggerated to see how Nahdia responds (although that's not really what I'm seeing here so far) I know Klingon will scumslip if she's scum and right now I think Nahdia is more defensive than sne needs to be.

Now to everyone that has been scumreading me from before I said I wouldn't talk anymore (those after are lurk-reading me and lurking is not alignment indicative) please share with me why you think Im scum so I can properly defend against that if I hadn't done so already.

VOTE: Acryon
I will elaborate tonight when I do my readslist.

I think you were already voting for me.

[acryon]

Something about Acryon's posts-to-content ratio puts me off. They're not really saying much (or anything?) and I've seen that twice too many times come from scum.

Hmm, were there certain posts from me that felt empty?

[acryon]

Well it's easier for me to list your better posts, e.g. #218 & #321.

Sure, you might be posting quite a bit of seemingly related content, but has it been helpful? Not exactly. That's what's pinging me.

Never heard that as a complaint of me, but I'll keep that in mind.

That's because literally nothing being said is actually productive. It's words, words, words, fluff, fluff, fluff. Oh, it's content alright, people are posting reads and reasons, but it's content which isn't actually doing anything.

Ah, if only a person had some way to provide content that they don't believe to be just words or fluff. Hmmm.

I'll explain my scumread on Acryon really quick since I didn't get to iso's yet; it's how he interacted with Creature. He votes him, then explains how creature should be acting under pressure, then sheeps creature faster than lightning. I don't get the thought process behind that. It feels like Acryon suddenly realized he was using this thread as their PT and sheeped Creature on MsGreen because nobody expects buddies to sheep like that.

You should give theoretical scum-me more credit than this.

[acryon]

So anyways, Ranger.

She started out the game with her nice reads lists, which were good for reactions and to gauge where people were at, but we haven't seen one of those in the last 300 posts, despite the fact that people have done

plenty

to shape one's read of them.

Said she most likely found scum in 109 but then does nothing about it. If you "most likely" found scum as town, don't you push that? Instead her actions read as posturing.

Other than this, she has done nothing this game despite there being plenty to comment on. Active-lurking, posturing, scum.

[acryon]

Masq, I got a somewhat similar feeling from that; to me it seemed like acryon knew my slot was town and was trying to manipulate it, more so than actually trying to sort it. One of my scumtells is telling people what they should be doing as town, and I know it's easy to fall into that trap.

If you've played with me before, you'd know I do this as any alignment

I think the fact that you and Masq have conflicting opinions on the general feel of my actions toward Creature should show you that there's nothing nefarious going on.

[acryon]

@something-smart: The thing is that he voted your slot before he started being all nice to creature about how he should look town and such. If Acryon was scumreading creature for being obsessed with people voting him, then where's the suspicious/accusatory tone? Why did he put creature at L-2 and then talk to creature as if he's town? What do you think Acryon was manipulating Creature into doing/saying?

I use my vote for one of two reasons: pressure, or because I want them lynched. Vote on Creature was for pressure. And with my guidance, he would either crack under the pressure and do/say something scummy, or he would shape up as a townie. I think he started to do the latter.

[acryon]

Pressure without clear expectation will cause even townies to crack and look scummy, which happens all the time. I would rather catch actual scum.

[acryon]

Ah, if only a person had some way to provide content that they don't believe to be just words or fluff. Hmmm.

Oh, you mean like a vote.

Yeah, did that.

Nothing's made me want to move my vote since then, either.

There is more you can do. If you are town and you think you've found scum, seems like your responsibility is to convince us that you've found it. You're not doing that.

[acryon]

If you are town and you think you've found scum, seems like your responsibility is to convince us that you've found it. You're not doing that.

My job is never to convince people I've found scum. It's to identify the scum. Accuracy is more important than push ability to me. Klingoncelt is scum. Nahdia's points against her remain valid. This is also her scum game, which I have encountered multiple times, and contrary to her claims, there's nothing obvtown about her play.

Sure, but what good is someone who has perfect accuracy but can't convey to the town why people are scum? It's useless.

[acryon]

@Mod: V/LA until Monday morning CDT.

Happy with my vote.

[acryon]

Ooh good shot Reubus! Definitely didn't have any feelings on zefiend but glad he did.

Looking over zefiend, I reluctantly am placing Ranger as Town for now, since the back and forth between them doesn't feel like bussing.

VOTE: SomethingSmart

[acryon]

L-2. May as well claim S_S.

[acryon]

I'm trying to figure out what pisskop is doing, this doesn't feel like a town fake guilty but none of the other possibilities make sense.
Possibilities:
PK is town but not cop and is confident enough to risk his life on it
PK is cop, received "innocent" or "no result" on me (or investigated someone else) and is confident enough to risk his life on it

For the love, please don't be doing either of these things PK. I have literally

never

been in a game where a townie fakeclaimed and the town won.

[acryon]

I'm trying to figure out what pisskop is doing, this doesn't feel like a town fake guilty but none of the other possibilities make sense.
Possibilities:
PK is town but not cop and is confident enough to risk his life on it
PK is cop, received "innocent" or "no result" on me (or investigated someone else) and is confident enough to risk his life on it

For the love, please don't be doing either of these things PK. I have literally

never

been in a game where a townie fakeclaimed and the town won.

Exactly. But what would be the logic in doing this as scum? He would either have one partner or none, it's practically suicide and there's very little to gain from it.

Well that's why I'm inclined to believe he's almost definitely town. I just really hope this isn't a gambit.

Gambits are almost always

terrible

. They sew mistrust within the town and spread confusion.

[acryon]

rational splooging shouldnt be winning you over acry

Did my vote move? I am trusting you and leaving my vote until you tell me you're running a gambit.

[acryon]

Ugh I hope I never play another game with you KT. Why is it that every game I step into has at least one pure VI/troll.

[acryon]

i am a VT, not a VI,, and I am not a troll

Then play like one, and not the others.

[acryon]

Wow SS is really trying hard for this one.

If pisskop claims he's gambitting I'm pulling for his lynch today because the only thing that gambit does is make it harder to lynch SS. Again. Fuck that so much.

p sure he's actually telling the truth though for several reasons.

p-edit: no he isn't

I agree that these gambits are generally terrible, but are you advocating a theoretical policy-lynch?

l o l

I really hate your play. Not sure about alignment, but rather than discussing things you tell SS to talk about something else, then they say something else you don't like and just "lol". What is your aim? Because it clearly isn't to be constructive.

[acryon]

why are you being so cruel to everyone, acryon???

I'm not; I just like an environment where we talk about things. Being noisy (you) and being dismissive (GNMG) work against that.

[acryon]

Acryon, you may disagree about the method, but it got creature and SS to talk.

Different people react differently, I don't think we would have gotten so much out of SS and Creature without us.

~BlueTrin

PS: we got a lot out of you as well

Yes but what you did before was much different than what you did now. There are right and wrong ways to push people in my opinion. You have done the right way in the past, and this is the wrong way. This way would make me want to just flake out/ignore you as town.

[acryon]

wait a minute
Acryon why haven't you done that then?

The operative word there is "want". Also he didn't really do it to me.

[acryon]

Well, I can't speak for GM, but I do not read much more the posts from SS because, for me, it is quite obvious he is scum from his defensiveness and the way he is trying to save his skin by any means.

And I get that, but I just wonder what the goal is? If S_S isn't talking today, who is?

[acryon]

@pisskop: Tell me you're actually the cop. Because 600 looks very real actually.

[acryon]

Well, I can't speak for GM, but I do not read much more the posts from SS because, for me, it is quite obvious he is scum from his defensiveness and the way he is trying to save his skin by any means.

And I get that, but I just wonder what the goal is? If S_S isn't talking today, who is?

Are you saying that because SS is the possibly the best lynch candidate, today will be a very quiet day as people won't be fighting ?

Mostly because he came close to a lynch yesterday ?

Yes. Scum have little incentive to talk today as they don't want to give away reactions. Town have little incentive to talk as there isn't much to talk about; either you believe PK or you don't. The only person with a real incentive to talk is S_S, because he will likely eat the rope if he doesn't (although he probably will either way).

[acryon]

I totally understand your point and I just want to say that this is just the situation we are in. We (the hydra) didn't contribute to this situation. It happened because we didn't vote him yesterday and because PK revealed at the beginning of the day.

At this point, there is nothing we can do, IMHO.

Yeah you may be right. It rubbed me the wrong way when I read it, but it may just be the nature of the circumstances that we're sort of stuck today.

[acryon]

Well that is great news.

@Mod:

Would you mind updating the 1st post with who is dead and alive and what roles. Makes it easier to remember what we've lost/gotten.

Will do, my apologies it hasn't been updated yet already!

[acryon]

this always happens. I tend to be on when a new day starts and one thing people like to do in most games is jump on the first player to say anything. To be honest I wasn't going to even comment on what happened yet since I know how people jump on non-comments like it and just ask the mod what I wanted to ask, but I didn't want to come across rude so I mentioned something else too.

[acryon]

I didn't really care about your empty comment at the start of the day. I made one too ^_^ it's null

Well I'm glad for that at least

[acryon]

VOTE: acryon

Come on PK. Tell me why I'm scum and I'll tell you why you're wrong.

[acryon]

VOTE: SOMETHING SMART

Mod:

Is there really no anti-troll rule this guy is breaking?

[acryon]

1. Nahdia is super Town
2. SS being SK means my acryon read actually makes sense now. D1 acryon was whiteknighting the shit out of a slot he was pretty sure would be lynched and knew wouldn't flip Scum. Blue asked me overNight why acryon wouldn't think SS was SK. I said something like the following:

Some possible options:
1. He didn't think there was an SK/didn't remember it was possible.
2. He was pretty sure someone else was SK.
3. He just assumed I was being overzealous against a newbTown in over his head, which is a silly thing for him to assume because I usually bail out newbTown who are in over their heads in Opens, but I suppose he wouldn't necessarily know that. It can be hard for some people to tell the difference between uncomfortable newbTown and uncomfortable newbScum.

Our vote is there in spirit atm.

D1 wagons are generally terrible and usually on town. I'm generally not one for self-meta, or meta at all, but if you look through my history, you'll see I am almost always a vocal opponent of the major D1 wagon for those reasons.

Opposing a crappy wagon isn't alignment-indicative, and certainly not alignment-indicative if it turns out to be on a SK.

[acryon]

Btw, you guiz know I got a no result on SS, right?

Then you got lucky, and that was still terrible.

[acryon]

Wow.

Im glad Im voting you.

I'm obviously happy we got him, but I just hate fakeclaiming as town. If S_S ends up being town there, things are so horrendously bad for us that it's not even close to worth trying.

[acryon]

The idea that I was lucky had nothing to do with it.

Maybe lucky wasn't the right word, but fakeclaiming as town is

bad

. I don't care how good you think you are at scumhunting.

[acryon]

What in the world? Where did I fakeclaim?

Did you not just say you never actually had a result on S_S?

[acryon]

I am so stupid. Nevermind. I didn't realize you were saying you go "a no result". I thought you were saying you didn't actually get a result on him and just lied to town because you really thought he was anti-town.

I wish I could delete my last 10 posts.

[acryon]

Oh wait, or is that what you did? Because if you got a "No Result", doesn't that just mean you probably got roleblocked, in which case you didn't actually know he was anti-town? If that's the case, then I stand by my statement.

[acryon]

Wow.

No, I got a result. And I never claimed a guilty. There was zero way I would have been blocked

I mean, you essentially claimed you had a guilty. "I copped X. Vote: X" is effectively saying you had a guilty on X. And how was there zero way you would have been blocked?

[acryon]

So did you get a result or did you not? You said you didn't in 743?

[acryon]

Im saying it doesnt matter but I want to air it out now so somebody doest get cheecky about it later

Also what did you get for a result last night?

[acryon]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Whenever someone fakeclaims it turns into a giant clown show where no one knows what to believe. Terrible for town.

[acryon]

You asked. You had no reason to ask

No reason to ask what?

[acryon]

If you're referring to last night's result, how do I have no reason to ask that? Makes scumhunting easier for everyone if we have confirmation on a player.

[acryon]

Dude. It's obvious.
and you are scum.
nobody comments on a dov save.

The only reason why people don't comment on it is because people think it looks scummy because nobody comments on it because people think it looks scummy because... you get my point.

[acryon]

Didn't expect to come back to this... I think the speed of this wagon should be evidence enough that I'm town, but give me a minute and I'll address some of the nonsense that I'm sure was said about me.

Also I'm VT.

[acryon]

Then you got lucky, and that was still terrible.

With this set-up Pisskop would have either been rb'ed or hit the SK with immunity to investigation. Either way the resulting lynch is informative of role setup for town. And that's all we're discussing about role set up today.
There was never any fakeclaim. Pisskop never said he got a 'guilty' (or 'innocent' for that matter)
(Still ignoring Pisskop)

This is wrong. According to the SK wiki "For example, a Serial Killer that gives an "innocent" result to Cops (and only Cops) is called an Investigation-Immune Serial Killer." So them being immune means they would return "Innocent." They only return "No result" if RB'd or ascetic AFAIK. Maybe I'm wrong here, but from my research I don't think so.

I was specifically reaction hunting from players wrt the cop guilty.

People may have guessed as much but people like acryon still slipped up

How did I still slip up? Are we supposed to be ok with being faking a claim/guilty? Anyone who's played with me before knows I'm the devil's advocate so I'm not going to let something like that slide.

Ranger. You took a wrong turn somewhere.

So wait a second, you demonized me for setup-related talk and said that was enough for talk of it, then Ranger makes two large posts discussing it in detail (including role-fishing to see if PK is an actual full cop and thus worth killing tonight), and the only problem you have with it is that he maybe made a mistake somewhere in it?

It's a semi-open.
A serial killer means we have an odd number of Ts:
T, TTT, TTTTT, or TTTTTTT.
In an all-T setup, we'd have nothing but VTs. We know this is not the case.
In a five-T setup, we'd have a serial killer, two mafia (I believe 2 goons, need to double-check; could be Goon+Godfather, but this is irrelevant anyway), and then two letters, in this case, V for 1-shot vigilante, and C for 1-shot cop. However, this does not offer an explanation for why there has been a missing kill each night, and if you're a full cop you know this can't be possible anyway.
In a one-T setup, we'd have a much stronger scumteam, but we'd also have more power roles than I think we have. It's not impossible, but it's improbable.
Therefore, the most likely setup is three Ts: Mafia Goon x2, Mafia Roleblocker, Serial Killer, full cop, 1x vig, and either a doctor or a roleblocker, because these are the only two roles that explain missing kills. (CCC would be possible, but leaves the kill problem. M is impossible, because an IC would be announced at game start. VVV is impossible because that takes us to even numbers; MM is impossible because that

also

takes us to even numbers, so no full-vig, and no masons.)

I'm going to take your word for it. I'm terrible at figuring out these C-9 setups. I should play more of them, maybe I'll learn how.

Anyway, due to the holiday I'm V/LA until Monday. in the meantime

VOTE: Acryon

L-1

What does any of that setup spec have to do with a vote on me? And why do we actually care about figuring out the setup right now? Plenty more important things than that.

I feel like I've already said in this game that momentum doesn't mean shit.

That's pretty clearly false for anyone who has played any decent number of games.

I wish I could actually address more, but the reasons for voting me just aren't even there, so not sure what else to do. This wagon is terrible, nobody has a real reason for voting me to even talk about.

Ranger and Masquerade almost definite scum here. Klingon may be another if there is one, but I think he may just be playing lazy.

VOTE: Ranger

[acryon]

I would ask that at least one person please remove their vote so we don't do something foolish. If there are good enough reasons for me being scum (there aren't), you should only solidify them in the next 11 days.

[acryon]

I think the reason people are voting you isn't because you argued with the cop post flip about fakeclaiming, it's because you saw him fakeclaiming coming when there was no reason expect that.

I didn't see his fakeclaiming coming hence why I still voted with him, but I have been in a couple games fairly recently with people fakeclaiming as well as PK seeming like the type of player that would be capable of fakeclaiming as town.

Re: Ranger and Masq. Ranger has been playing opportunist with his posting. He was quiet lots of D1 because there wasn't anything easy for him to jump on I don't think. Other points in the game when he feels he is able to sway the town, he will jump in and do so. He makes large posts like 779 to appear town when it's actually just useless right now. I was town the whole time for Ranger up until 627 and turning on me for that one is very dumb because people like to jump on anyone that makes any sort of comment re: the night actions, but it's actually not alignment-indicative. I changed my tune on him at the beginning of D2 based purely on association, which I'm willing to throw out due to how horrible posts like 733 are. "Remember how I said one of {acryon, Willowmeadow} was scum? Well, with that Something_Smart flip, should be obvious that both are." Get real.

wtf ranger
you voted without looking at the previews?

When catching up on a game, I ignore the previews: they contain information I don't want to know yet.
The only times I pay attention to the previews are when I'm either replacing into the game and reading the thread (I keep up to date on current events in case I cannot finish reading the game in time) or when I'm rereading a game. Even then, I tend to hit submit on my post first, and

then

read the contemporary post, rather than reading it in the preview-edit window.

And, hey. You shouldn't complain too much; I DID hammer an anti-town player!

This post above should ping people. You

vote

without looking at the preview? Yeah right. And he "accidentally" hammered, and was given a pass for it because it was anti-town S_S, but let's remember that it was the SK, so it actually doesn't give him any credit at all. For all he knew he could have been hammering a townie based on whether or not he believed PK'd claim. For a player that appears very clear and calculated, does anyone really believe that he will just vote without previewing? Especially when a player is so close to the rope?

Masquerade is a more recent one and maybe it's honestly a little OMGUSy. His reasons for voting me seem bad and they are actually based on inherently flawed logic.

[acryon]

Here's a couple posts where you seemed sort of like you were entertaining the idea of a fakeclaim moreso than others. I think the thought process from you just felt forged in parts on day 2. Hints of being informed.

And all I can say is that it was based on the reasons I stated, and I don't actually see a scum-motivation to ever do what I did since it only draws attention.

DONT LYNCH ME.........!!!

VOTE: KainTepes

I don't think this is Kain's towngame. Vote him with me.

I can't quite get here yet, because this would still feel like a policy lynch for me personally. Obviously if it's between me and him, I'm going him, but I'll have to hold off for now.

[acryon]

C'mon. Do it.

Oh trust me I want to. There tends to be one person in all my games who does nothing for town, makes noise, and skates by, which annoys the crap out of me (and in my opinion should be disallowed from playing since they aren't really playing to their wincon). Unfortunately, that person has been town more often than not, and there's not enough here yet to convince me this isn't the case.

[acryon]

@Mod

Please. This is a blatant troll. He's not even playing the game. Voting people that are dead, claiming roles that are not in the game, using caps when explicitly asked not to.

[acryon]

@Acryon: I actually did not check what kind of result any kind of cop or other kind of investigative would get on an investigative-immune SK. I only checked the C9++ page and that says:

Cops get results in the form of Town/Antitown or Innocent/Guilty - SK's show up as Antitown/Guilty unless they have Inv-Immunity.

which to me implies cop doesn't get a result of SK picked immunity.
No need to get into setupspeccing more, this was just meant to make you see I wasn't going on faulty logic, I was going on my own interpretation of the role.

So you're saying PK's guilty on you is fake?

Well PK already said himself that he didn't actually have a guilty on me, so yep.

[acryon]

UNVOTE:
No time now gtg but gonna find out where I got that you had a guilty :/

Well he said he did, but then he admitted he didn't actually; he just thinks I'm scum. I never took him saying he had a guilty on me seriously in the first place, but I guess I also knew it couldn't be serious.

[acryon]

UNVOTE:
No time now gtg but gonna find out where I got that you had a guilty :/

Well he said he did, but then he admitted he didn't actually; he just thinks I'm scum. I never took him saying he had a guilty on me seriously in the first place, but I guess I also knew it couldn't be serious.

You guess?

Just the way I worded it, but I was trying to get across that even without knowing that he couldn't have a guilty on me, the tone of the post didn't feel serious, so I didn't necessarily expect others to believe him either. Not to mention the fact that he waited until after we have talked and didn't say it right away.

[acryon]

Acryon, why do you townread Pisskop?

Because I have no reason to believe he was lying about his claim.

[acryon]

I was digging into your iso to find out why you think Zefiend bussed Ranger and couldn't fins it. I was able to find this though:

Looking over zefiend, I reluctantly am placing Ranger as Town for now, since the back and forth between them doesn't feel like bussing.

Changed your mind?

Yep, which I already called out myself here:

I think the reason people are voting you isn't because you argued with the cop post flip about fakeclaiming, it's because you saw him fakeclaiming coming when there was no reason expect that.

I didn't see his fakeclaiming coming hence why I still voted with him, but I have been in a couple games fairly recently with people fakeclaiming as well as PK seeming like the type of player that would be capable of fakeclaiming as town.

Re: Ranger and Masq. Ranger has been playing opportunist with his posting. He was quiet lots of D1 because there wasn't anything easy for him to jump on I don't think. Other points in the game when he feels he is able to sway the town, he will jump in and do so. He makes large posts like 779 to appear town when it's actually just useless right now. I was town the whole time for Ranger up until 627 and turning on me for that one is very dumb because people like to jump on anyone that makes any sort of comment re: the night actions, but it's actually not alignment-indicative.

I changed my tune on him at the beginning of D2 based purely on association, which I'm willing to throw out due to how horrible posts like 733 are. "Remember how I said one of {acryon, Willowmeadow} was scum? Well, with that Something_Smart flip, should be obvious that both are." Get real.

wtf ranger
you voted without looking at the previews?

When catching up on a game, I ignore the previews: they contain information I don't want to know yet.
The only times I pay attention to the previews are when I'm either replacing into the game and reading the thread (I keep up to date on current events in case I cannot finish reading the game in time) or when I'm rereading a game. Even then, I tend to hit submit on my post first, and

then

read the contemporary post, rather than reading it in the preview-edit window.

And, hey. You shouldn't complain too much; I DID hammer an anti-town player!

This post above should ping people. You

vote

without looking at the preview? Yeah right. And he "accidentally" hammered, and was given a pass for it because it was anti-town S_S, but let's remember that it was the SK, so it actually doesn't give him any credit at all. For all he knew he could have been hammering a townie based on whether or not he believed PK'd claim. For a player that appears very clear and calculated, does anyone really believe that he will just vote without previewing? Especially when a player is so close to the rope?

[acryon]

Oh for crying out loud I read that one several times and somehow didn't get that was an explanation for your turnaround. I suck at language..
Anyway, Ranger kept posting after hammering which clearly points to her not being aware of actually posting the hammer and also not planning it as she wasn;t done posting when she actually posted the hammer. Ranger is town.

But I don't think Ranger makes that mistake. The rest of her play is what I would potentially describe as calculated. She even presented the idea that she doesn't preview because she doesn't want new posts to affect her catch-up thoughts. This is a valid thought so I'm not surprised for it to come from someone like her, but it is critically flawed in what we just saw happen. You never vote without a preview in that circumstance, and I especially think Ranger specifically doesn't do it, unless she knew exactly what she was doing.

[acryon]

You're making a weird bridge. Because Ranger thinks about not reading the preview she should also think about reading them in case someone has placed a L-1-vote? That's essentially what you;re saying and it doesn't work.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Making comments without previewing isn't stupid; voting without previewing is very stupid. And I think Ranger knows that.

[acryon]

Ranger has been playing opportunist with his posting.

How is it you've played this many games with me and you're still calling me a 'he', anyway? My gender's right on my profile.

But apparently, pursuing Something_Smart on D1 before anyone else did was opportunistic, as was calling zefiend our flipped scum as such.

Haven't played that many games with you, but I do apologize for messing up your gender. I'll admit you get some townpoints for the two players you listed, but for zefiend, your first real call-out was only in response to them calling you out, and for S_S, you don't get much credit because they were SK. I don't believe you were opportunistic there, but I do believe so in the ways I mentioned in my previous posts.

I am willing to admit I don't know everything, and there's a chance I'm wrong on you, but this day you haven't looked good.

You vote without looking at the preview?

Yep! I have absolutely zero regard for what votes are when I cast a vote. If it's a vote I would regret, I would not be casting the vote in the first place, so it doesn't matter if it's a hammer vote. Or L-1, or L-2, or a vanity vote. It really doesn't matter what the votecount is. My vote is going to be made when I make it, whenever that is, whatever the consequence.

It does actually matter, and that is 1) a very stupid personal rule causing potential detriment to town and 2) seemingly contradictory to your otherwise calculated playstyle.

The switch to KainTepes is switching from scum onto a player much less likely to be scum. acryon's wagon built up gradually over the day. If anything, that he wasn't lynched like Something_Smart was goes to show how the wagon on him is driven by town, not scum.

Gradually over the day? I went from 0 to 5 votes in 3 pages.

ranger i know some people get the willies from lining up lynches if i flip back to acryon today will you lynch Kain with me tomorrow? :3

And for good reason. This is horrible.

[acryon]

wtf ur horrible

VOTE: acryon

There is a reason you yourself said that people get the willies from lining up lynches; it's very bad. Exceptionally bad given that the person you're lining up after me is what many would call a policy lynch. Good way to bury town. I also didn't say you were horrible.

[acryon]

ok well i dont think it's bad and i have reasons i think kain is mafia >_>

Yes but you should never line up lynches;

that

is very bad. You are essentially entering into a deal where two different people accept lynches they don't feel are the right one.

[acryon]

@Mod

Could we get prods on Kop and GoodNightMsGreen?

[acryon]

ranger i know some people get the willies from lining up lynches if i flip back to acryon today will you lynch Kain with me tomorrow? :3

I'm sorry, but I cannot make that promise.

It does actually matter, and that is 1) a very stupid personal rule causing potential detriment to town and 2) seemingly contradictory to your otherwise calculated playstyle.

I don't even know why you keep saying I've got a calculated playstyle. I mostly do what I feel like, and what I feel like doing most of the time is not caring.

You're either delusional or intentionally misrepresenting your playstyle in an attempt to counter my narrative. Your reads list are a prime example of the style I'm talking about, and anyone who looks through your ISO would contest the notion that you play with this lackadaisical style. You tend to have a number of large in-depth posts, and you attempt to outline a bunch of different scenarios. That sounds calculated to me.

[acryon]

Didn't expect to come back to this... I think the speed of this wagon should be evidence enough that I'm town, but give me a minute and I'll address some of the nonsense that I'm sure was said about me.

Also I'm VT.

I feel like I've only said about 6 trillion times that it's not indicative. I actually spent an hour or so the other day working on the stats for it.

Perhaps it's possible that you have had an exceptionally anomalous experience on MS, but it's generally accepted knowledge, as well as just logical that quicker wagons are more likely to contain scum.

I feel like I've already said in this game that momentum doesn't mean shit.

That's pretty clearly false for anyone who has played any decent number of games.

The head who posted that was me, goodmorning! I've actually played ~135 games on mafiaScum, if you include this one.

I, for one, think that's a pretty decent number.

--
Guys please don't make me make an acryon case, he is super scummy and we all can see it.

I think if I was, you wouldn't have to make it. Seems like you do.

[acryon]

VOTE: acry

O7

You're already voting me. Do something else.

[acryon]

Scum change their minds more rarely than Town, on average, because we're hardwired to link consistency with only good things and because we actually tend to be more consistent when we lie.

That's precisely my doubt here. I want you, and anyone, to comment on the fact that Ranger is town for how Zefiend scumread her.
And I don't know, Acryon doesn't look all that scummy to me besides his tunnel on Ranger.
Acryon: address this please. Ignoring this any longer and you are claiming scum. What exactly makes you think that Zefiend and Ranger bussed?

Well the whole point of a bus is that it's convincing right? Admittedly if there's something keeping me from thinking Ranger is scum, it's that it

felt

genuine. But A) that doesn't mean it was and B) no one situation makes a player innocent; it's the sum of the parts.

[acryon]

Well I just looked back at it and the way Ranger responded to Zefiend made me think it wasn't bussing. It was also a weird time for bussing as neither was in any danger of being lynched.

That's fair. I don't feel entirely comfortable letting go of my scumread on Ranger simply based on his associations, especially since it was a Day 1 bus which is the easiest to carry out and have it seem genuine.

P.edit: I'll answer your questions with a question. How many people are scumreading Ranger right now? That's a good reason to do it. Bussing happens all the time on Day 1 for this reason and, as I mentioned before, it's the easiest to fabricate since you don't have to worry about creating a trail of scum-feelings + you get town-cred very early in the game which increases your influence as scum.

[acryon]

I agree. Ranger has been largely abscent too

Which is where my thoughts on his opportunism come in. I believe he has chosen his absence and presence deliberately based on what kind of pull he feels he could have.

[acryon]

I agree. Ranger has been largely abscent too

Which is where my thoughts on his opportunism come in. I believe he has chosen his absence and presence deliberately based on what kind of pull he feels he could have.

She?

Ugh sorry Ranger!

[acryon]

Spoiler:

There are two different types of analysis we can talk about here: how the number of Scum impacts a wagon on Town, or how the alignment of the wagonee affects the speed of the wagon.

I don't have enough data transposed to analyse the former in a statistically significant way.
I can, however, analyse the latter.

It took an average of 187.57 posts or 8.42 days to lynch Town, with data falling between 19 and 499 posts and .61 and 19.29 days.
It took an average of 166.23 posts or 8.05 days to lynch Scum, with data falling between 16 and 356 posts and 1.13 and 23.42 days.

That's 21.34 fewer posts and .37 less of a day it takes to lynch Scum in this particular set of games.

How many wagons were included in the sample? And I'm assuming you didn't include when a PR outs scum, which will of course expedite the wagon considerably, skewing results. Also keep in mind we aren't actually even talking about lynching. We are talking about getting

close

to lynching. So really we should be comparing L-1/L-2 wagons and their speed based on alignment, because I think thankfully cooler heads prevail in a lot of these speed-wagons on town.

[acryon]

Spoiler:

Enough to be statistically significant. These were all D1 lynches, no PR results. It's hard to measure wagons that don't make a lynch because sometimes they rise and fall before a mod posts a VC, and I don't hate myself enough to try.

I agree that this would be more effort than it's worth, but really the argument is over wagons not necessarily lynches. But anyhow let's talk about something else. If you assume town-acryon, who do you think is scum?

[acryon]

If you assume town-acryon, who do you think is scum?

Easy. Willowmeadow and Kop.

Willowmeadow for the lackluster posting.
If you try accusing

me

of being largely absent, iso Willowmeadow.
No, seriously. Try an accusation of me being largely absent when comparing my iso to Willowmeadow's.

Kop for the increasingly-suspicious posting.

Well Willow has been consistently absent, which is cause for concern in its own right, although in a different way than yours, which seems to have strategic peaks and valleys.

[acryon]

Good job guys. You got a VT.

[acryon]

This was handled so unbelievably badly by town. Everyone being apathetic and then of course the great KT hammer. At least now I know better than to ever play in a game with KT again.

[acryon]

At the very least this will give you some good info I hope. Don't waste it.

[acryon]

Well I honestly did think that was the hammer, but now that we have a second chance, do not for the love of town screw this up.

[acryon]

Like no one actually has a decent reason at all to vote me. If people actually cared to take an interest in this game it would be fairly clear to them how bag this wagon is.

But given some other clown will probably come hammer me at any moment, Ranger is scum. Look at Masq and GNMG as well. Need to hope we get a couple scum there and also that KT loses access to the internet for town to win this one.

[acryon]

I've also essentially accidentally townslipped multiple times this game, which made me kind of happy after they happened thinking that would inadvertently help town get off of this nonsense, which in any normal game at least one person would talk about, but no one is thinking this game.

[acryon]

the time to not be shit at mafia was before you got wagoned

Except I wasn't. I still haven't seen a single decent reason for voting me. What is your reason exactly PK?

[acryon]

People voting me:
PK – No reason stated.

KainTepes – Enough said.

Willowmeadow – My “posting style doesn’t fit a townie” (whatever that means) and she doesn’t like my targeting of either Ranger or Masq.

Nahdia – Looking through and still not sure. “wtf ur horrible” is the best I could find aside from some sort of connection with S_S which wasn’t clearly stated.

Ranger – Lots of his reasons seemed associative, but then he said it’s mostly an individual scum read, but I failed to really find the reasons for that. Maybe didn’t like me questioning PK’s claim?

If you feel I misrepresented your reasoning, please point me to where you said things contrary to what I've stated. If you've essentially said nothing like I stated, now is the time to speak up so we can talk this out.

[acryon]

It's not that I don't like you targeting Masq, it's just that you're by far scummier. After zefiend flip Ranger has basically been conf-town for me, like I stated before. You're really just stretching it when trying to get evidence (scumpaint to be honest) and at least in the first couple of days you posted a lot and still didn't say much. Scum. Obviously.

Besides your reply to Kain's hammer was reeeaaallly scummy. "I'm VT gimme another chance" as if you didn't realize really it was a hammer.

Are you kidding? That was not my reply to Kain's hammer at all. Read again.

If you are town Acryon, can you info dump ? You may still win !

Info dump in what way? I feel I've said what I can outside of people willing to engage me on specific points.

[acryon]

It's not that I don't like you targeting Masq, it's just that you're by far scummier. After zefiend flip Ranger has basically been conf-town for me, like I stated before. You're really just stretching it when trying to get evidence (scumpaint to be honest) and at least in the first couple of days you posted a lot and still didn't say much. Scum. Obviously.

Besides your reply to Kain's hammer was reeeaaallly scummy. "I'm VT gimme another chance" as if you didn't realize really it was a hammer.

And if you are referring to the post after PK pointed out it was not a hammer, how does someone who actually believed it was a hammer and then realized it wasn't react? Something tells me any response at that point from someone you thought was scum would seem scummy. And if so, I can't help you there.

[acryon]

This is what I was referring to with the whole "I'm gonna see how things develop" post. Felt like acryon was kind of prepping for the cop to not be real, Something_Smart being scum not on the mafia team fits that since to acryon that could have just as easily been a fake cop guilty.

And what exactly does scum-acryon gain from what you're proposing I did? Why in the world would scum

ever

add that they were suspicious of the the claim while simultaneously voting and supporting it, especially knowing it was possible they were getting an SK?

[acryon]

Like you can think it's weird and I explained why I acted the way I did (fake-claims by town in previous games + PK being a fairly erratic player), but there's just no scum-motivation to voice suspicion. Weird =/= scummy.

[acryon]

because if scum knew the person the cop was guilting wasn't a member of their team they have a reason to be suspicious of it. it's not about motivation, it's about underlying tone.

pisskop my syntax varie wildly

But my point is given the potential existence of an SK, why would scum ever voice that suspicion while simultaneously going along with the vote? The only way scum would possibly benefit from that is if PK was fake-claiming and S_S was town, which was never going to be a likely scenario.

[acryon]

again, it's not about conscious motivation. i don't expect everyone to be constantly 100% cognizant of the tiny intricacies of the posts they make.

Very clearly voicing suspicion of a claimed cop when no one else is even considering it is not a tiny intricacy.

[acryon]

some ppl just post what comes to theri head as either alignment. and often times tht helps them read as "genuine" but inversely it can end up giving away information u might not be expectd to have as a towny

I would hope any player who has played more than one game as scum would think before offering suspicion on a claimed cop with no CC as scum. So this means you must think I'm really really bad scum.

[acryon]

Like that is your only reason for voting me. That you think I did something weird that only a very dumb scum would do and that's not even alignment-indicative and if anything is much much more likely to be done by town. Do you not see the problem there?

[acryon]

Well arguing against a gutread is literally impossible and that's all you're presenting, so not sure why you aren't voting me.

[acryon]

it's not just a gutread i gave a reason..................... and i am voting you?

Except that it is a gutread. You're not voting me based on alignment-indicative evidence. You're voting me based on your gut feeling that I am scum making a mistake.

Also PK threw me off with his comment about you hammering, so ignore the voting party. Since you're already voting me, then we don't have anything else to say to each other since again your argument is based on something we can't actually argue since it essentially boils down to a gutread.

[acryon]

Your reaction to the claim of a guilty was pretty bad.

Was it weird or was it scummy? If the latter, how so?

[acryon]

Also check out this game:http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64492 where we had someone claim cop, then get counterclaimed, then admitted they were faking. Turns out the person who claimed initially actually was the cop and lied about fakeclaiming and the counterclaim was a fake. After that mess, I'm (I think understandably) skeptical of claims and also more aware of town potentially fakeclaiming, especially when the player plays somewhat fast and loose.

[acryon]

okay. So who should we lynch then?

Ranger. For the reasons I've stated already this game. I also had a scumread on them for a good chunk of a game that just finished and she was scum there.

[acryon]

Id be willing to lynch ranger. This is a lot more like her scum game.

My general idea today was 'I dont care too much about this here game but if acry flips town we murder the shit out of ranger'.

And that's not a completely unreasonable sentiment.

Not that you're necessarily suggesting this, but just an FYI I'm not going to endorse "ok guys you can lynch me if you promise to lynch Ranger tomorrow" because (1) that's not my style and (2) no one's reads are infallible so there is always a chance for Ranger-town (although seems very unlikely).

[acryon]

UNVOTE:

Explain the case for scum!ranger. If it's meta explain the meta

It's not meta. Me mentioning the other game was more assurance that I wasn't just scumreading her then or here based on personality conflicts.

That being said I have to be honest I was doing a hard look-through of the thread again specifically at Ranger so I could add specific example of her scumminess and am struggling with some things that I have a hard time explaining as coming from scum. Obviously backtracking like this sucks, but I think scum may be elsewhere. And in my look-through, someone else popped up that looked like a scum.

Let's go Willow.
-Been hardcore lurking this whole game.
-Posts like 449 are horrific. "Now that we've lined up two lynches, I'd like to line up a couple more".
-Comment in 722 felt like posturing.
-734 is bad. I feel like whenever I see these kinds of posts it comes from scum.
-816: No reason to play loose with a lynch, even if we have one to spare. This sort of attitude seems to be present most of the game.
-More but I don't want to monopolize the scum-case on her.

VOTE: Willowmeadow

[acryon]

Acryon: What do you mean by 'monopolize the scum-case on her'?

I'd rather not put a giant list out there of every notable post because then we have one conversation about it, and depending on people's stances, it can be unfairly shut down or propagated. I'd rather put out a handful of reasons, have other people take a look and see what they can find as well. It's not about a 1v1, and I'd rather it not turn into that.

@PK: I don't hate a Masq case as I had said previously. I'd still like to hear people's thoughts on Willow though.

[acryon]

@Mod:

V/LA until Monday morning CST as usual.

[acryon]

VOTE: pisskop

If it's not pk, then it's definitely one of the last 4 people on the Willow wagon. I know why I voted for her and thought my reasons were good, hence why I was the first vote. And then I was followed by the doc. No sense to vote me here.

[acryon]

VOTE: acry


yea no sod off mate

Why are we giving you a pass again?

[acryon]

pass?

when was my alignment in question

When you claimed/didn't claim.

[acryon]

yea no.

reach harder

How am I reaching? Are you the cop? Or did you lie about it? Somehow when I questioned before things got turned around on me and we let you go.

[acryon]

Yea no.

Ive already claimed.

Ok, so you're the cop.

Your N1 investigation was on a likely investigative-immune SK, meaning he shows up as innocent.
Your N2 investigation you never told the town about, despite it clearing another player.
Your N3 investigation we also haven't heard about.

[acryon]

Nope. SK return no result.

Youre too tryhard die faster

That would be ascetic.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Serial_Killer

"For example, a Serial Killer that gives an "innocent" result to Cops (and only Cops) is called an Investigation-Immune Serial Killer"

[acryon]

Nope

I literally just caught you lying.

If investigation-immunity meant the SK showed up as "no result", they would never choose it, since that would be essentially a guilty.

But I suppose the mod can help clear it up.

@Mod: What result would a cop get from targeting an investigation-immune SK?

[acryon]

Something_Smart was a Serial Killer

Too tryhard acryon is struggling to save his skin

What are you talking about? Of course he was an SK. But if he was investigation-immune, he shows up innocent, and if he picked BP he shows up as anti-town/guilty. "SK's show up as Antitown/Guilty unless they have Inv-Immunity"

[acryon]

Yea no.

Ive already claimed.

Ok, so you're the cop.

Your N1 investigation was on a likely investigative-immune SK, meaning he shows up as innocent.
Your N2 investigation you never told the town about, despite it clearing another player.
Your N3 investigation we also haven't heard about.

Didn't he claim no result on SS, and SS flipped SK?

Yes, but the only way he would get no result is if someone RB'd him, because SK shows up as Innocence if they pick investigative-immunity. He also just failed to tell the town what his investigation gave us on D2. So why are we believing he is the cop again?

[acryon]

Nope

I literally just caught you lying.

If investigation-immunity meant the SK showed up as "no result", they would never choose it, since that would be essentially a guilty.

But I suppose the mod can help clear it up.

@Mod: What result would a cop get from targeting an investigation-immune SK?

HE DIDNT FUCKING FLIP II SK YOU REACHY LITTLE SHIT

But you have to choose an ability pre-game, so it's possible mod just left that part off the flip. Also, it's totally irrelevant because if S_S didn't pick a role, then he

still

would have shown up as guilty, not "no result" per the rules of the game.

[acryon]

Thankfully I think everyone can see very clearly here that you are scum. I've caught you lying and your only defense is to say I'm reaching when literally all I'm doing is reading the game rules which don't align with what you've said happened.

[acryon]

Nope

I literally just caught you lying.

If investigation-immunity meant the SK showed up as "no result", they would never choose it, since that would be essentially a guilty.

But I suppose the mod can help clear it up.

@Mod: What result would a cop get from targeting an investigation-immune SK?

An Investigation-immune SK would show up as "Innocent"

And a non-II SK would show up as guilty, so what do you have for me now PK?

[acryon]

Youre still scum.

You have nothing but a push against a player who has already outed everything you have claimed her as scandalous.

Im saying it doesnt matter but I want to air it out now so somebody doest get cheecky about it later

Point is it does matter. Let's clear it up. You said:

Wow.

No, I got a result. And I never claimed a guilty. There was zero way I would have been blocked

So then by definition you got either "no result" or "innocent". You told us before this that you got "no result", which is only possible if you were RB'd which you said there was zero way you were. So what are you talking about?

P.edit: Ah and the good ol ad hominem.

[acryon]

Also if you are actually the cop, why did you not tell the town who you got an inno on N2? Or now that we are here, N3? You're either a liar or the worst cop to have ever played the game since you're denying the town information for zero reason.

[acryon]

Youre getting roped.

You arent fighting to solve the game, or else you would have done this yesterday.

Youre fighting to save your skin.

I expected you to come forward with your result before the end of the last day, but you didn't.

[acryon]

Because the obvious alternative doesnt fit your narrative so you dont consider it

Why in the world would you have not told us what results you got N2 and N3? Stop dodging this very simple question.

[acryon]

Ok actually I just realized what you're talking about, but you're still probably scum for lying about the result.

[acryon]

There will be no wagon on me, there will be no lynch on me because you cant get right

Did you just mess up thinking that an II-SK shows up as no result? You can admit that; it's fine. But the fact that you were refusing to makes me wonder.

[acryon]

If anyone wants to ignore the last page and half, fine. Here is your lynch pool then: Klingoncelt, Nahdia, Masquerade, GoodNightMsGreen. We can talk about them instead since me messing up part of the PK thing is probably killing any chance of that getting anywhere

[acryon]

Also you have from me a vow to start reading thoroughly through the setup possibilities, because I don't like looking stupid. Probably going to step away from this game for a day or so.

[acryon]

Ok, so setup-wise we know we have at least 1 C, 1 D, and 1 V. Based on the remaining setup possibilities, we are definitely dealing with a 3-man scumteam since there has been an SK. Either 2 goons and an RB or 1 goon, 1 RB, and 1 godfather. The former is most likely, but there are definitely 2 scum left. Lack of a N3 kill likely means either a save from Ranger, or town roleblock.

Regarding KT, not sure what to make of it, but he has been posting all over the site but hasn't posted here in quite some time.

Regarding PK, I obviously can't just ignore the fact that I botched up a major part of my scumread on him, so that is falling to the wayside for now.

[acryon]

hmf oicwudt acry


what was ranger view onkling

It was weird actually. Ranger was strongly reading Kling as scum for quite a while with a bunch of reasons until Kling said "this isn't my scumgame Ranger" and then Ranger changed her mind.

[acryon]

@Mod: V/LA until Monday morning CST.

[acryon]

VOTE: Acryon

I can't really argue against GNMG's reason for voting me because it's his opinion, but I can argue with your non-reason.

Other than that not much to say at this point while we wait for wgeurts' thoughts. Seems like the type of game where a fresh perspective could help immensely.

[acryon]

Prodge for now. Letting wgeurts and CDB catch up.

[acryon]

wgeurts is town. Close to zero chance scum comes in and goes on the same rant I did re: pisskop which caught me a ton of flak and virtually no one agreed with.

[acryon]

I disagree. If scum is genuinely confused as to the exact nature of Pisskop's claim (which would be understandable), it's an obvious thing to try to hash out. It increases the information available to scum and is a way to show investment and engagement.

Except PK and I already had that entire conversation. I just don't see scum entering in and picking that to talk about when they could just as easily find some low-hanging fruit to go over.

[acryon]

Maybe it's bias because he's apparently had some of the same issues as me with the claim, but I just really don't see scum picking that battle.

[acryon]

Except PK and I already had that entire conversation.

If it's a waste of time disguised as engagement, then I fail to see how that's not just another reason for scum to have that conversation again rather than do something which you'd think would be more productive.

Because there are a million other things that he could have talked about that would have accomplished that goal while simultaneously gaining some followers as opposed to picking up the one topic that nearly got my lynched.

P.edit: I'm exclusively making the point that I very strongly believe that scum is so very unlikely to do that.

[acryon]

FWIW I like a lot of the points you have re: Masq/wgeurts, but I have a really hard time getting over this hurdle.

[acryon]

@Mod

: Maybe a bit early to ask, but could we get a couple days extension due to the replacements?

[acryon]

Hey Kop, I see you posting in other games

2 posts, none of great substance.

I am here now. Wanna talk?

I'll be in and out this evening but absolutely. I think you're scum. Talk me out of it.

My vote that is currently on Acryon initiated from the previous day, purely for the fact that he overreacted on PKs claim. But I actually believe that is a shitty reason alone to be voting based on that, I've just never actually gotten around to building up my own case on why my vote is there, other than sheeping on everybody elses reasons. Whilst I am aware that does make me look scummy, but at the time I was losing out on timing issues with everything else so kinda went with the flow of the river, instead of trying to find ways of investing my time into this game and create my own avenues.

I have a spare hour so I'm going to have a look through again.

Hm, not sure if scum or town are more likely to be this transparent about the reason. My gut tells me that scum would try to conjure up a legit reason, but they may also just drop it if they know they don't have something good. That being said, if they didn't have something real, I'm not sure they would do it in the first place without something set up.

[acryon]

Hm, not sure if scum or town are more likely to be this transparent about the reason. My gut tells me that scum would try to conjure up a legit reason, but they may also just drop it if they know they don't have something good. That being said, if they didn't have something real, I'm not sure they would do it in the first place without something set up.

I just noticed you still have your vote on Pisskop. Do you still doubt his claim?

I think it's more likely his claim is legit than not, although I wouldn't say I believe it 100%. My vote being still on him has more to do with me not finding another place for it yet as opposed to me feeling his is still scum, so I suppose I can unvote.

UNVOTE:

[acryon]

My request had less to do with people catching up and more to do with town being robbed of days of discussion because we had two players missing, but I understand either way.

[acryon]

Read back through CDB's readslist, and here are some facts for everyone:
-CDB is obvtown, which is incredible because he replaced essentially a non-player
-Kop is scum. CDB's case on him is good.

VOTE: Kop

[acryon]

-CDB is obvtown

why

Read 1182. Those thought processes read as town through and through. Feel free to point me to an issue you have with any of them, because I can't really find any. I know CDB is just a good player in general, so that will be hard either way, but I still think they feel super town.

[acryon]

this is probably hypocritical of me since earlier today i said i would just sheep someone but im more taking issue with you saying "o ya CBD is totally town" after 8 posts. in other words they're not my issue, you still kinda are >_> it was an awkward sheep

Number of posts doesn't matter. KT had a million posts and there was less real content than in CDB's one main post.

[acryon]

and don't get me wrong, Kop has been no paragon of towniness, but he's also like, the really obvious push here for mafia who just replaced in at this point in the game. i guess at this point I'm not really gonna get anywhere pushing the Kain slot but i

did

scumread that slot previous and CBD hasn't done anything that screams overt town to me. scum can make decent readlists too.

How is Kop the really obvious push? You and I have both had far more traction than him.

[acryon]

What do you think of wgeurts then?

[acryon]

i remember liking masq's slot. woulda been nice to have some explanation but even though it's a catchup, there is development over time. he jumps back and forth a lot which i actually think is towny. i think as scum most people avoid coming off like that?

Yes I think so and I'm inclined to agree on wgeurts-town.

Your vote is still on KT. What's your case there, especially in light of the replacement?

[acryon]

i kinda forgot about my vote but i mean i think i've made my suspicions of that slot clear?

It's pretty much based on meta right? Did you have a town game to compare to?

And either way a lynch on CDB seems bad today, so who else you got?

P.edit: I am far more convinced by CDB's case on Kop that on Masq/wgeurts. I also have a very strong town gut-read on wgeurts based on his actions today, so I'd have a hard time getting over that right now.

[acryon]

like i just really hate to see someone who is clearly a capable player jump into a weak slot and then rake in tons of townpoints because they made one static readlist. CBD knows how to play, they've got the freaking Scum Team banner for goodness sake. where's the PARANOIA, friend?

Maybe you're right, but when no one else is doing anythiiiiing, it's pretty easy to feel like a person actually contributing real ideas is town.

i kinda forgot about my vote but i mean i think i've made my suspicions of that slot clear?

It's pretty much based on meta right? Did you have a town game to compare to?

And either way a lynch on CDB seems bad today, so who else you got?

P.edit: I am far more convinced by CDB's case on Kop that on Masq/wgeurts. I also have a very strong town gut-read on wgeurts based on his actions today, so I'd have a hard time getting over that right now.

if you mean my case on Kain, uh, yeah it's kinda meta based. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=65431 is his towngame.

I know Kain is kind of just a wildcard and just screams a lot but having experienced both games, this one he felt a LOT more put on. maybe it's because in the newbie game i knew his alignment all the way through.

quick analysis of Kain votes, he hops sporadically between:
GNMG (no read on them by CBD btw)
Myself
Masq/wgeurts
acryon
Creature/Something_Smart (Flipped SK)

And hmm, idk. That link doesn't look all that different from the game I played with him where he was scum, and not all that different from this one.

[acryon]

Claiming a cop guilty on RC.

Woah really?

[acryon]

100% certain that that was a joke

Well it's worth noting that there is another town PR that hasn't been spoken for. He also hasn't joked at all this game, so it didn't read like that to me, but maybe you're right.

[acryon]

actually i spent an excessive amount of time studying the setup possibilities and it has to be a joke. so ya.

Although if the guilty is on PK, then that doesn't actually matter and wgeurts could be cop. But this is actually not worth discussing since he will just tell us whether he was joking or not.

[acryon]

I don't like your slot basically.

FWIW, that seems to be KT's play in every game.

[acryon]

I know the difference between scum and town KT.

Do you though? Because Nahdia posted a town-game of his and it looked an awful lot like his scum game.

[acryon]

VOTE: Acryon

Let's start here.

Can you tell me about the differences between his town and scum game?

[acryon]

I will tell the rest of the class after I lynch you.

[acryon]

but last time he was wagoned i distinctly remember getting the jibblies

As you should.

[acryon]

@Mod

I'll be V/LA until morning CST on the 25th. I'll have varying levels of availability, but should be fairly available to post at least for the next few days.

[acryon]

I don't see Wgeurts and Kop voting for each other.

Pisskop just ate a tempban, so it's not likely that vote will move, unless a replacement is found quickly.

Can everyone move to Wgeurts today and we can lynch Kop Day 5?

Not sure how I didn't see this post before, but it is truly terrible.

Consider me on-board with a Kling lynch if people aren't interested enough in a Kop one.

[acryon]

Sorry I haven't had a chance to check in on this game. Will do so later today.

[acryon]

Okay I think Kling is scum here. The most notable part for me that I thought to look at was how people got on my wagon, as well as how people then jumped on the counter-wagon on Willow.

Timeline:
782 Voted me for no stated reason, putting me to L-1.
864 Switched vote away from me and onto KT, again for no stated reason.
926 Now he gives intent to hammer me. Keep in mind there is no mention of me in between any of these posts.
991 Makes no comment on me or Willow whatsoever and switches vote to Willow.
1026 Perhaps realizing that he didn't want Willow to die without him actually giving some reason for voting just says that Willow seems scummier than me.

VOTE: Klingoncelt

[acryon]

I just read GNMG and Kop/alone and I got the feeling alone was trying to keep Nahdia and Klingon open for misslynch-possibilities. I also think I was wrong about GNMG.

VOTE: Channel

Why does this end with a CDB vote? You just said you thought he was town.

[acryon]

Yes, obviously. I haven't been able to do a proper read through of zefiend and Kop/Alone yet (incredibly tired these last two days) but will get cracking on that tomorrow.

Masquerade has seemed townier in the last few posts (changing minds so quickly at this stage feels less likely to come from scum, who would have more of a plan in mind) and that lines up a little with the back end of Yesterday. I was wrong on a townread if Masq is town, though, and unlike some I need to be sure it's Kling if we go for a her-me one-two (I also think that scumreading me seems pretty silly but that's another thing entirely).

Why would you ever be okay with the idea of a consecutive lynch plan that involves you?

[acryon]

Well if we all agree it either Klingon or Channel we can just lynch them both and win.
Does anyone object?

I mean, obviously we're going to reevaluate tomorrow no matter what >_> let's not just blindly line up lynches people.

i thought for awhile for other explanations on alone's weird inconsistency and it was kinda just me mentally kicking myself for trying to dig so deep into mr. moonlogic over there. Masq's quick willingness to go along with the "plan" bothers me, I liked CBD's reaction to it better.

if CBD is scum and we don't lynch him RC will probably never ever talk to me again :T

Lining up lynches is always horrible. Definitely gives Masq some scumpoints IMO.

[acryon]

I don't see Wgeurts and Kop voting for each other.

Pisskop just ate a tempban, so it's not likely that vote will move, unless a replacement is found quickly.

Can everyone move to Wgeurts today and we can lynch Kop Day 5?

Not sure how I didn't see this post before, but it is truly terrible.

Consider me on-board with a Kling lynch if people aren't interested enough in a Kop one.

And you also didn't comment on Nahdia lining up lynches, but suddenly I'm the scum here? No. NO. NOPE>

Your way looked worse I think. "Hey guys, we just lynch these next two people. Everyone agree?"

[acryon]

Mod: V/LA until Monday morning CST.

[acryon]

Back and still feel good about Kling-scum.

[acryon]

If it worked that way why are you not unvoting me? See, my rolepm says I'm town. I don't believe yours says the same.
Show me you're town.
Do towny things.

Second this.

I don't understand the play at all of theoretical town-Kling here. You've done zero to show you're town, zero to show why someone else is scum.

[acryon]

I have not been replaced yet ? Why aren't there more people who noticed that Acryon was white knighting Creature ?

Creature was 3rdParty.

As I (we since we are a hydra) highlighted already ... this is why he is scum, think about it for a few seconds.

If Creature was scum, he would not have defended it so much ! The reason he defended it is that because he thought he could have been town. He didn't think he was 3rd party !

Read again the way he fought with me/us to defend Creature and how Creature slot was dodgy from the beginning. Even though Creature was flailing more and more, Acryon still went 100% to defend him.

Feel free to look at pretty much every game I've ever played and you will see me attacking a bad wagon D1. Most D1 wagons are on town and they are usually terrible. As was the Creature one.