Open 635 - JK9++ (Game Over)

[Thor665]

Thor catch up quickly and give us your thoughts, you're in the hot seat right now.

Okay, excitement, why am I in the hot seat?
I mean, I can grok the VC, I'm just wondering if there's a case or not, I don't see one yet but there appears to be some implied claim to a Titus connection, and that's about it.

Oh hey and he's in a scum slot.

Man, and I thought the mod would only send me my role PM.
How do you conclude I'm in a scum slot besides that?

Yes because lynching a player who has ignored a slot that flips scum all game is SUCH bad thinking isn't it?

It's not?

I wanna hear from this slot more than I want to hear from Titus.

What do you want to hear? You didn't ask me anything - is it just noises you want?
Beedle-boop!
Does that help?

I'm going to wait until Thor catches up before I do much from here.

What do you need me to comment on in order to get you to play the game again?

[Thor665]

That quote was sarcasm Thor.
You're in the hot seat because Witch_Hunter was a scumbutt and replaced out, then Rhaegar replaced him but did nothing and got replaced himself, so now we have you.

So you agree it is bad logic? Good.

Why was Witchunter a scumbutt?

If you want reasons for why your slot is being scumread, this just about covers mine:

Witch_Hunter

[1]Hate the whole "well I was criticising that logic because it doesn't make them CONFIRMED town" thing in post 168 (basically what Anarchy said in 208). 311 is awful too for similar reasons that I can't quite articulate.
[2]The "don't want to rush his wagon" thing in 554 when CMM had two votes is WTF, but I'm not sure how alignment indicative it is unless CMM is scum or something.
[3]The "why are you townreading me don't townread me" thing in 557 is awful, and the kind of line of questioning I wouldn't really expect newbtown with content and reasoning this bad to go down, but that I can see scum trying to push because they think encouraging people not to townread them seems like something scum wouldn't do.
[4]The replace-out is lolbad as well.

1. Well, firstly, I'd say I agree with Witchhunter here, secondly I'd note that Anarchy hasn't flipped - so I don't understand how it's an issue. Has that slot been confirmed as town yet? Because if it hasn't, there is very much no case here, as, if the slot is scum, then what Witchhunter did is a valid town tell as opposed to a scumtell.

2. How many games of town freaking out about non scary wagons do I need to provide to convince you this point is playstyle based and not alignment based?
To be honest, I don't even understand how it's alignment based - like, say I'm scum, and a wagon was forming. Why would I be more likely to say 'don't rush!' as scum? I don't get it. If CMM had flipped scum I'd kind of get it, but as stands it reads like a null o rtown tell to me, not a scum one. Clarify?

3. I personally think this is just a newb tell, as I think they do this more than anyone - but if in your mind it's a scumtell at least there's the concept of a tell here, so I don't really have an issue with it at face value like the rest of your case. I don't agree it's a tell myself, but I see where you're coming from here.

4. How is this a scumtell? For starters, strategic replacement is against site rules - so, by logic, if it was strategic then either Witchhunter should have been reported by the mod and banned...or the replace is not strategic. The mod has more info than you on the reality of a potential strategic replace and...oh, look, WH hasn't been game banned, has he? In fact, let's actually research this question; his last post on site was 13 days ago in this game.

So...what, your theory is that he is scum, replaced out strategically, and is avoiding the entire site (currently for 13 days and counting) just to help out his future scum replacees?



Tell me more about how this looked "strategic" to you? Because you clearly did zero actual scumhunting on the idea, you just threw around a buzzword (which is also a buzzword, but work with me here).

[Thor665]

I think you're missing the point. Witch_Hunter was pushing against a reason someone gave for townreading Anarachy Shard by saying that it didn't make AS

confirmed

town. It's just a really shitty discredit that doesn't make sense when you're starting from a neutral standpoint on someone's alignment.

Yeah, but that isn't what he said on his initial comment, on that he didn't use the word confirmed. It was only on the clarification.
Also, again, even if we want to presume it's a scumtell...what's the scumtell exactly? Sure, I'll agree thinking that someone was implying conftown looks weird, but how is it scummy? Is it just generally attacking a townread? SirCakez attacked the read also (incorrectly reading it, but attacking it nonetheless) is that a scumtell on him? If it isn't, why does it apply to me and not him? If it is, how do both attacks being over different things equate to both being scumtells?

I

did

say that I wasn't sure whether this actually said anything about Witch_Hunter's alignment. I just thought it looked weird so I made a note of it.

So we agree it's not a valid tell, excellent.

I like how the word strategic is in quotation marks as if I used it.

I presumed since you were citing the replace as part of a scumcase that it was.
If you just meant "rar, hate replacements!" then...okay, but that doesn't make it scummy. Only a strategic replace out is scummy, and the site outlaws those.

I don't think it was a strategic replace out. I think Witch_Hunter got overwhelmed and replaced out because he couldn't get into the game, and I think the reason that happened likely had something to do with him buckling under the pressure of being scum and not doing a very good job of it.

Why could it not be him as town, buckling under pressure, and not being very good at it?
Because he clearly wanted to leave site (for whatever reason) so I can agree with you that the reason might be that he found the pressure of the game unpleasant. Why does that make him scum though? I don't get that part of your conclusion.

[Thor665]

And that's why I didn't want to lynch the empty slot.

Why were you voting me then?
Seems the opposite of 'not wanting to lynch the empty slot'...no?

You realize Thor does those easily every game regardless of alignment?

Naturally.
Be careful though, Postie finds it scummy when people attack town reads of others.

Wait...

three very long, content-filled posts with logic difficult to find fault in

I strongly disagree on that last bit, but putting that aside for a moment, how is this towny?

Aw, man, pot meet kettle
Then again, she's dropped defending the non-case to me and is starting to chase other fish (other fish that, per her case on me, have to be town, because I was attacking them being town read). Oh the circles, they hurt me brain!

@SirCakez - who is the scumz and why?

Why could it not be him as town, buckling under pressure, and not being very good at it?
Because he clearly wanted to leave site (for whatever reason) so I can agree with you that the reason might be that he found the pressure of the game unpleasant. Why does that make him scum though? I don't get that part of your conclusion.

It's partly the way it happened.
Get called out on being scummy -> posts fizzle out -> PM the mod to be replaced
It feels sneaky.

Sneaky...to...do...what?
Like, I don't get what they're "sneaking" on.
I want to use "strategic" again here, but I feel that would bug you. But sneaky? Sneakily doing what - what did they do that was sneaky (yet not strategic )? I get that you don't like that they replaced out, and I get that it looks underhanded on some level - but what did they accomplish by this sneaky replace fest? Seems like what they accomplished was leaving the site - also known as "wasn't enjoying the game" and I don't get why a town player in WH's slot would have loved the game and stayed while a scum one would have quit the site for at least 13 days if not forever.

[Thor665]

So you didn't want to lynch me because lynching an empty slot is bad to your mind.
But you did want me to feel a lot of pressure.

Why did my slot deserve to feel pressure?

[Thor665]

What are your reads?

I've been in the game less than 12 hours - when I get some reads I'll make sure you know.
What is your issue with Ranger, and why wouldn't you vote him as opposed to Dice?

Because your slot has almost nothing in the thread. Witch_Hunter made a few posts, but they were all pretty bad. I wanted the replacement to get on, see themselves as a leading wagon, and be motivated to actually start playing.

Why didn't you do that to Rhaegar?

[Thor665]

Ah, I thought you were calling Dice out because Dice had (positive) backing.
So you are confident in your ability to read Ranger?

[Thor665]

Want to lynch Postie then?

[Thor665]

What's Spiffeh done that's scummy beyond lurk, or is lurk the case?

[Thor665]

Sneaky...to...do...what?
Like, I don't get what they're "sneaking" on.
I want to use "strategic" again here, but I feel that would bug you. But sneaky? Sneakily doing what - what did they do that was sneaky (yet not strategic )? I get that you don't like that they replaced out, and I get that it looks underhanded on some level - but what did they accomplish by this sneaky replace fest? Seems like what they accomplished was leaving the site - also known as "wasn't enjoying the game" and I don't get why a town player in WH's slot would have loved the game and stayed while a scum one would have quit the site for at least 13 days if not forever.

@Postie.

[Thor665]

Since when do I catch up with anything?

[Thor665]

(This is a straight up admission that I'm not going to read the entire game - bank on it)

[Thor665]

I get that it looks underhanded on some level

That is exactly the problem.

Agreed.
Because it's a surface level complaint, it's like "oooh, must be scummy!" but it is suggesting you put zero question into WHY is it scummy. I don't care that it looks scummy on the surface, because any actual examination of it tends to suggest that it isn't scummy in any way at all. I'm asking you about it to see if you see something I don't, or to see if I can open your eyes to how empty the issue is, or to see if you come off as scum by blindly defending it.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with this question. It's not like I think Witch_Hunter replaced out to further his win con; I just think he was uncomfortable.

Why would that make him scum as opposed to town?
If it doesn;t (and I don't think it does) why is that an issue against him?

I think it's possible they just couldn't get into the game because of the speed at which it was moving or whatever else and decided to replace out for that reason, and those things probably played a factor regardless of their alignment, but I think that the way they replaced out makes them more likely to be scum.
I think a townie would have been more likely to voice their frustration at the game before replacing out. The way he just kind-of lurked and then PM'd the mod to replace out feels like he was trying to stay out of the spotlight.

So you don't take his last couple posts (where he suggests others are pedantic and judging him for not playing to their idea of town meta) fail to qualify as hints that he wasn't loving the game?
Also he didn't lurk out between his last post and his replacment post.
And I don't think he lurked out really at all - he only played the game for four days, and posted multiple times each day.
How do you take that as trying to "lay low" and not simply "decided he didn't like the game".
I mean, it literally screams 'didn't like the game and left" to me - but now it's some sort of scum strategy on his part to avoid the spotlight to help his replacement? I mean, even if I wanted to go so far as to think he didn't want his replacement to have to fill a scummy slot (and I don't agree with that) why wouldn't a town player have that exact same thought? It helps their wincon also, to not leave a busted town slot for town to mislynch and annoy a replace in.
But I actually don't think he thought any of those things - I think he thought 'screw this, I'm going home' which seems much more supported by evidence.

Unless you have a banger of an explanation for why I'm wrong you can feel free to ignore this, I have my value call about your case on me now.

Thor, why did you ask me if I would vote Postie?

Because I wanted the answer.

Is she your biggest scumread up to this point?

Sort of, her or Ranger.

If so, why?

Blind sheeping the dead.

[Thor665]

VOTE: SirCakes

This is who we should vote.

Hey, Titus, wanna give me a lowdown of the game as you currently see it?

[Thor665]

@Postie - Heartless is the dead, if that's the confusion.

@Anarchy - why are you not pushing your "mega-scumread" Titus then, in lack of other options?

[Thor665]

@Postie - Heartless is the dead, if that's the confusion.

I was scumreading your slot before Heartless died.

Okay?
Don't think that has anything to do with the price of tea in China, but good to know I suppose.

[Thor665]

3dice reads please everyone.

Null.
Silly request.

[Thor665]

I am not lynching Postie today.
I'm not lynching Ranger ever.

So if you want some common ground that's not 3dice you need to case something.

Why not lynch Postie, she is clearly hopelessly tunneled on me, so even if town is a valid lynch choice.

Cakes and Daves are scum. I am the sole available mislynch.

Why are they scum. and, while we're at it, why are Postie and Ranger town?

Unfortunately you are too Thor. The amount of effort they put in to link us is pretty damning.

Really? How amazingly linked are we and why are you linking yourself to me so strongly?

[Thor665]

Titus is scumz for a history of misrepping, tunneling obvtown like SMGO earlier, avoiding all interaction with certain slots like yours.

Why is SMGO obv. town?
Also, is mine the only slot Titus has avoided interacting with?
As an interesting aside, I checked, SMGO also avoided interacting with my slot - so I'm super interested to hear your thoughts here.

Dave is scumz for lurking constantly, saying he was acting scummy on purpose, generally crappy scumhunting

Have you played with Dave as town and seen him not do this?

You are scumz currently because Witch_Hunter had dodgy sucmhunting, didn't vote someone to avoid "rushing their wagon", bad reaction to being townread. Rhaegar just didn't do anything while in your slot.

What do you think of my rebuttal's to Postie, who offered up these same points?
I dismissed them all basically out of hand. The only one you add is "dodgy scumhunting" to which I counter with "player replaced out and left site so...duh"
Where's the fire?

That's going to be problematic inevitably.

Why?

[Thor665]

What? So how am I blind sheeping the dead?

I never said you were - I said it was my reason for finding you and Ranger scummy.

[Thor665]

@Thor, your slot claimed Doctor. :-p

Did you claim backup? Because otherwise whatever my slot claimed I don't see the connection.

[Thor665]

That's not true, I just checked their ISO. 768 and 771 are talking about Witch for example, and RC jumped on the Rhaegar wagon while Titus avoided discussing it. Yeah they didn't talk about your slot a ton but they didn't avoid your slot to the extent Titus did.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p7825984

I don't get this classification for what qualifies avoiding my slot or not.

I don't have a completed game with Dave actually iirc.

Is that a yes or a no?

I didn't read through your responses there in detail. I could go more indepth on my scumreads on the previous occupants of the slot but it would be pretty pointless since that player is no longer here to respond. You can defend your predecessor yeah but you aren't the same person. Better to try to read you.

I would agree since the case on me is as empty as empty could be if only using the case on WH and Rhaegar.

Because a lot of important stuff happened early on?

Oh, snap, like what?

@Thor, your slot claimed Doctor. :-p

Did you claim backup? Because otherwise whatever my slot claimed I don't see the connection.

Ok I can lynch Thor now.

Oh yeah, why is that?
You still haven't answered my connection question yet.

@Thor, your slot claimed Doctor. :-p

Did you claim backup? Because otherwise whatever my slot claimed I don't see the connection.

Ok I can lynch Thor now.

Oh wow I missed this.

Thor, are you... unclaiming doctor?

I'm pretty sure I'm not making any claim or unclaim in that post - but...sure?
I don't care, decide what you think I'm saying, explain how it's scummy, then get back to me.

[Thor665]

Mainly the complete lack of address by Titus towards the Rhaegar wagon while SMGO joined it.

Going just off mod VC - the wagon peaked at three votes with a whole ton of people not seeming to get excited by it.
Why was it such an event that Titus needed to comment on it, and not doing so made him scum, while SMGO sheeping along on a null read wagon is obv. town.
I don't get it.

No because I don't have a completed game with him

So why do you think he would scumhunt better than he has?

The Titus vs SMGO, CNM wagon, basically everything Spiffeh posted, etc

Why is Spiffeh's posting so exciting?

VOTE: Thor

Seriously Thor? You read the setup?

I skimmed it, what of it?

You still haven't answered my question, and this is starting to bore me.

[Thor665]

VOTE: ThorVOTE:

In what universe is backup possible?

It's not - what does me asking if you claimed it have to do with you voting me?

[Thor665]

Like, is the theory that I'm scum coaching you to claim a role that doesn't exist in the game and that you don't have to then mislynch you for fake claiming backup?
Like, I'm really not following this derp.

[Thor665]

You're asking if I claimed something impossible all the while not confirming or revoking WH's claim.

You are correct, I brought up a non-existent role in this game, and also didn't claim while not at L-1.
I'm not sure why that's scummy on either point.

You claim to have read the setup briefly but that's not true as backup isn't possible. Asking me if I claim backup strongly implies you claimed doctor so why not outright affirm or disclaim it?

Because it was a joke based off the question I had asked you about how we were connected. Like, here's the conversation flow;

Titus: there case connecting us is strong!
Thor: How are we connected?
Titus: You claimed Doc!
Thor: Did you claim backup?
Titus: LOL Thor is scum!

That's where I'm at, where are you?
Because I thought it was pretty clearly a joke - and even if we want to go with the theory that I was dead serious...what was my scum plan there exactly? To get you to fake affirm that you're a backup?

This makes no sense at all.

[Thor665]

And you just ruined my test. There's zero chance Thor will claim doctor now. None.

Thor claiming doctor would scu firm him, which benefits the entire game. You're right that WH never claimed Doctor. I wanted Thor to confirm or dispel that himself. Why?

And why would you think I would do that?

[Thor665]

The it was a joke defense. My favorite.

Are you saying my reaction didn't come across that way?
What did you think my reaction came across as?

Because your issue still isn't making sense.

[Thor665]

Honestly, if you're town, I'm insulted at the level of play you're implying in me as theory scum, frankly.

[Thor665]

Wow. Going for the i'm dumb.

Going with the "not addressing how my response didn't look like a joke".

Seriously, when I asked you how much of the setup you read and you replied that you skimmed it, that clearly indicated not a joke.

What does that have to do with the joke? I did just skim the setup.

People call out bullSmurf wen faced with it. You didn't. Youhemmed and hawwed.

I actually didn't - I directly asked how your response had anything to do with my question.

[Thor665]

So were you looking to see what Titus meant individually, or just the general how you're "connected"?

I am not sure what you mean by individually/generally - but what I wanted was what I asked about. Titus was acting like the connection between us had something; since I know that my alignment meant there was no connection beyond happenstance I was curious to hear her thoughts on what said connection was and why it was so damning.

her or Ranger.

I'd vote Postie in a heartbeat.

That change anything?

At this time? No.
In the future? Maybe.
Words and deeds are different things, and nothing is sure till the Mod flips them.

Why is it that the more Postie posts about a wagon, the more uncomfortable I become with lynching that person? :S

You have a Vig shot; Postie or Titus, who eats lead?

[Thor665]

People call out bullSmurf wen faced with it. You didn't. Youhemmed and hawwed.

I actually didn't - I directly asked how your response had anything to do with my question.

I slept on this, it still appears silly to me, but I have a question now.

Okay, so I'm town or scum - your reaction test is perceived as rolefishing either way by me. Regardless of my alignment I know that you have either seen my role PM or are trying to figure it out.

I "hem and haw" (or, in my version - I don't answer the rolefish, I am actually okay with either interpretation of my dreaded response)
Your theory is that if I am town I would absolutely blast you for rolefishing.
But if I am scum I would be horrified that you were rolefishing me and would not dare bring it up.

Is this correct?

If it is - why does my reaction change so much depending on my alignment? I actually don't know why scum and town would react to a rolefish differently.
If it isn't - what is your actual issue with me? Spelled out, because I don't get it.

[Thor665]

Currently my only issue with Titus is not even beginning to grok their scumhunting.
Why would you shoot them in the face?

[Thor665]

Who did Titus protect last night? An ISO skim doesn't reveal it to me.

I'm mildly buying the claim due to how terrible the claimed crumb is, personally.

[Thor665]

In general, sure, in particular to the claim...meh.
I'm liking you better though.

Postie

Depending on how Titus justifies the derp from yesterday I might go there, currently she's surviving based off how laughably bad her crumb was.
I'm putting Dave and Anarchy into semi acceptable lynch range for me.
Everyone else is null climbing to town at the moment.

[Thor665]

Vote: Postie

[Thor665]

And you continue to vote scum who is scum regardless of my alignment...while said scum is also voting me.

So, what are you doing exactly?

[Thor665]

That is pretty weaksauce to make you look remotely townish.

[Thor665]

You still don't get it at this point.

That would probably be why I made a big post asking you to explain it.
It is also probably why a few players are calling what you did scummy.
Hint: when multiple people are confused - the issue is with your presentation, not our comprehension.

Cakez and Daveaz bent over backwards trying to say after this slot flips scum, lynch Titus. It's as if they KNEW you were flipping scum. Even then when you call out Cakey, to take off his vote, you're still distancing. There are no available mislynches but me. So yeah. Your team is Smurfed.

I don't see how that connects with the Doc/Backup thing, but your working theory is that Cake and Dave went out of their way to connect you to their scumbuddy, so they could bus the buddy and then lynch you.

I'm not sure why they needed to do that as opposed to just lynching you straight up (I suppose the argument is they're trying that now...?) but, okay, so this is an element of your issue with me I guess.

Scum want to keep their options open. If you hadn't read, you wouldn't know if you could or couldn't claim Doctor safely as scum, so you'd hedge about it.

Because clearly scum didn't discuss you caliming Doc just like their scumbuddy n the scum QT while hatching the plot to get you lynched while bussing my slot?
...whaaaaat? That makes no sense.
Or is the theory that I didn't read a scum QT as well?

After all, if I was telling the truth, you had already claimed so I wouldn't be rolefishing. Town would know that I was lying and that I already claimed Doctor.

But your argument is that scum also wouldn't know - making the reactions identical. And if scum did know you had claimed Doc, wouldn't they also know if they had? I don't get this either. You're using words, but nothing is connecting for me.

That's why Dave saying that Witch Hunter never claimed Doctor is directly coaching you as to what to say. Postie picked up on this and told Dave to shut up. That's why Postie is town. I was trying to pressure you for that reaction, to pick one way or the other. If you CCed me directly as scum, it would be a HUGE boon to the game.

Okay, so, this has nothing to do with me making the Backup joke/serious mind control claim suggestion (and I don't blame you for distancing from that claim without explanation).
Your working theory is this;

Thor is scum who didn't know of any claims.
The scum in the QT planned to bus me to get you lynched (I am presuming they discussed their plan, if not I would love to hear you point out how they orchestrated it)
You decided to reaction test me by seeing if I would claim Doc (which presumes I am, firstly, not an actual Doc, and also am a town player who would immediately blow up at any fake claim tossed in my face, but wouldn't do so as scum).
I acted confused at your non-sequitur to buy myself time because I have never in any games shown an ability to Ctrl+F an Iso of about fifteen posts between two players.
Dave freaked out at how brilliant this all was and knew he had to save Thor, who is known as a scum who has messed up fakeclaims, or at least Dave suspects he will because he thinks I'm a weak scum player.

Is that right?

[Thor665]

Out of curiosity Titus - have you ever used this tactic as town before?

[Thor665]

I know for a fact you've never seen me react negatively to anyone trying this sort of play, so I won't ask you to go on a failed hunt to reveal that - no worries

[Thor665]

No the issue IS with comprehension OR scum deliberately trying to obfuscate.

You hemmed. You're scum. Pretty simple.

Oh please, your case is Swiss cheese, and looks like a lie built after the fact.

Yes, they HAVE NO MISLYNCHES AVAILABLE. How hard is that to Smurfing understand?

Well, the idea that there are no mislynches available. I see at least four potential lynchable slots right now. Sure, maybe three of them are scum and they're freaking out and pushing you out of desperation. But I kind of doubt it.

My theory is that you hadn't decided whether or not to CC me. How could you? It's not like you had access to my thoughts.

Why would I need access to your thoughts, as scum, to decide to CC you?

[Thor665]

Out of curiosity Titus - have you ever used this tactic as town before?

In general, if I gambit, it has zero downside. Any specific gambit is too narrow to be repeated other than macho/bulletproof which is impossible to do here given BP doctor is impossible.

Okay, so you never tried this before, and have no evidence that I react negatively to it as town, and yet you think it would work so clearly as to make you howl at me in caps?


What the hell?
What are you thinking right now?

[Thor665]

Actually Postie is also lynchable, and if I felt like working at it, Anarchy as well.

Especially if there are three scum in your listed four.

Feel free to rampage with that case though, I grok it now, and am content with where my defense and your explanation stands.

Unvote: Postie
Vote: Titus

[Thor665]

Tell me, are you the roleblocker Thor?

Of course I am, that's why the scumteam was mass bussing me, natch

[Thor665]

@Titus - who did you protect, I asked that to someone earlier and never got an answer, and I'm starting to think you never claimed it. I want that claim now, or a link to when you stated it earlier.

[Thor665]

@Cakez - why do you oppose my lynch, isn't Titus' connection to me kind of a thing for you? I know I pointed out the lack of logic in you voting me over Titus, but theoretically I could still be scum in that situation, so...?

[Thor665]

@Cakez - why do you oppose my lynch, isn't Titus' connection to me kind of a thing for you? I know I pointed out the lack of logic in you voting me over Titus, but theoretically I could still be scum in that situation, so...?

You're trying to tell him that he's wrong in townreading you???

No, what I'm doing is pointing out that he, up to this post, had clearly scumread me, and that my connection to Titus and the interaction thereof is the only reason he had flipped to Titus (after I pointed out how logically he should be voting Titus out of the pair of us).

Then he starts talking like I'm a townread out of nowhere.

Basically I'm asking him how that changed...by pointing out how his presented logic is wrong, but that's different than the question you're lobbing at me.

[Thor665]

I mean, seriously, just read the question I asked "why do you oppose my lynch, isn't Titus' connection to me kind of a thing for you?" That's what I'm asking - I'm not telling him anything.
I don't think I should be as hard to understand as people claim.

[Thor665]

I do think him not pointing out he's not a doctor straight away is a bit sus

Are you a Doc?

[Thor665]

C'mon, Postie, you claimed Doc, you better respond to this!

[Thor665]

Oh my gawd, you stopped and thought "what is going on here?" as opposed to "I didn't claim Doc, I must immediately decry this person!"

Shocking, really.

I just wanted to see a "town" reaction to the question.
Maybe we should try it again?

@Postie - I know you're the Cop - claim now or deny, there is no other option!

[Thor665]

you had no reason to doubt Titus was serious about seeing one of your predecessor's claim doctor.

You've never seen that before? This is the first time you've ever witnessed this brilliant ploy?

[Thor665]

I mean, it's like fake Dayvigs - who the hell believes those?

[Thor665]

Tell you what - you find me *ever* buying into either a fake Dayvig *or* a "you already claimed" ploy and I will happily self vote right now and claim scum.

Take your time.

[Thor665]

In fact - that promise is good for any game in the future also.

[Thor665]

If you knew it was fake why wouldn't you just say you weren't the doctor and/or call bullshit?

Claiming I was or wasn't the Doctor would be a role reveal.
A very brief glance over my play would show you that I don't support random role info granting under any circumstances (I have had multiple L-1 situations where I've refused to claim unless someone states hammer).
I have never done that.
I never will.
Because it's bad play.

He was rolefishing - straight up.,
I didn't play.
He (and you) are now calling that scummy.
And I reckon at least one of you is dead honest serious, which is amazing to me.

Perhaps I should rephrase - Titus was expecting a serious answer; you weren't.

If Titus was serious, Titus was playing a really derp way.
You don't random rolefish people - especially since Titus had apparently *already* created this theory where I was scum being double bussed and didn't vote me until after I "failed" his reaction test (a test that would require me to not be smart enough to Ctrl+F about 16 posts...which, y'know, is really easy to do, and something I did do, so...?) But, like, nothing in his scum case actually mattered to my failure to claim he was lying, at best it was connected to Dave's "defense" of me.

The thing is, if Titus believed that - what was the point of reaction testing me if he thought I was scum/town being double bussed by scum?
And, if I'm the scum worthy of being double bussed - why vote me?
And if I'm town - why vote me?

Nothing in the case or attack makes sense.

[Thor665]

@Thor, I wasn't role fishing you. It also wasn't random. If you were being double distanced, I wanted to verify the theory. You wanting to hedge as to whether or not you claimed Doctor indicated scum to me.

It doesn't matter to me which scum dies first.

I don't particularly believe you.

[Thor665]

Yes, that is one of the things I am saying there, amongst others.

[Thor665]

@Thor, your slot claimed Doctor. :-p

Did you claim backup? Because otherwise whatever my slot claimed I don't see the connection.

Ok I can lynch Thor now.

Oh wow I missed this.

Thor, are you... unclaiming doctor?

I'm pretty sure I'm not making any claim or unclaim in that post - but...sure?
I don't care, decide what you think I'm saying, explain how it's scummy, then get back to me.

Are you trying to misrep me, or did you think the second line had no bearing to the first?

[Thor665]

Quote any point from prior to Post 1574 where you think it shows me unclaiming Doctor.
Then I will explain what sarcasm is and how it applies to Post 1576.

[Thor665]

The point being - I hadn't claimed or unclaimed anything.
You then asked me if I was unclaiming.
I reacted like you were making a crazy statement, and basically asked you to back up what you were saying.

You are now deciding that me going "...sure?" is a verification of an unclaim.

If you believe that - then, yeah, proceed with your case, because I and you don't talk the same language.

[Thor665]

You are now deciding that me going "...sure?" is a verification of an unclaim.

If you're saying it wasn't, then... what was it?

If you're saying it's a confirmation - you run with that.
I don't care, I've presented my case, and evidence.

[Thor665]

Unvote: Postie
Vote: Titus

@Mod.

[Thor665]

Unvote: Postie
Vote: Titus

@Mod.

@Mod

Oops Fixed in latest VC at top of next pgae.

[Thor665]

You are now deciding that me going "...sure?" is a verification of an unclaim.

If you're saying it wasn't, then... what was it?

If you're saying it's a confirmation - you run with that.

Okay but was it or was it not a "verification of an unclaim" and if not, what were you saying?

What part of "I don't care" confuses you.
I've answered this question - all I would do now is repeat my answers to you.
I have no further interest in doing so - proceed with your case as you see fit, if you need Mafia education join a Newbie with me as an IC when I'm encouraged to deal with this sort of stuff. You're either town who doesn't get it, and won't get it till after the game is over, or you're scum who doesn't get it it (or is faking not getting it) none of those possibilities suggest me explaining it in smaller words will help - so, no.

Titus knows how to drop crumbs as scum, that's a terrible reason to townread her for.

Maybe that's why that's not why I'm townreading her.

Someone said they were townreading Titus's crumbs, I don't remember if it was you or someone else

It was me.

Are you claiming cop or something, you seem awfully sure?

This is not something I should answer.

Oh man, now Titus and Postie will scum read you!
Brilliant scumhunting, Expedience!

I'm not lynching Thor, vote Titus

^

Ranger, stop being a dumb Smurf.

You've already told scum you're one of two roles based on your challenge to me and they know I'm town.

Oh...no...wait, apparently this is utterly different than confirming something about your role when asked.

In other words, I'd oppose Ranger, Cakez, and SMGO wagons. I'm fine with all others at this stage. I actively endorse a Titus wagon. I could probably do an Expedience or 3dice wagon out of boredom, and those are my next two biggest drives, so... meh.

[Thor665]

And for the record everyone - Titus has been asked multiple times to claim target.
She hasn't.
In a game with possible tracking roles.
Just saying.

[Thor665]

I claimed my target yesterday. I am not claiming future targets.

Can you quote it?

And I haven't moved any goalposts - you're either lying, or full on derp tunneling, at no point did I ask you to claim a future target.
Feel free to quote me to catch me in that lie.
But you won't, because you can't - keep spewing.

[Thor665]

Okay, so you haven't then - point holds.
And goalpost moving was dropped like a wet blanket - so me calling you a liar or tunneled holds.

Copy.

[Thor665]

What were my original goalposts then? Can you describe them?

And, ah, now we're back to the 'yeah, I didn't claim'.

Who is moving what now?

Scum.

[Thor665]

Your theory being that Titus is just mad tunneling and has given up on reality?
I think Postie looks more likely the derp town of the pair - why do you disagree?

What's your beef with Dave?

[Thor665]

What were my original goalposts then? Can you describe them?

And, ah, now we're back to the 'yeah, I didn't claim'.

Who is moving what now?

Scum.

You didn't refute being doctor.

Most

people would call me out.

@RC, If you vote Dave, I will. I am not voting Postie.

I see a *small* flaw in your logic for calling me scum over that.
What could it be, what could it be...?

Basically what you're saying is "I think town would do this" with no actual supporting reasoning to even show that most town would do it, and assuredly no reasoning to show that I'm that town.

Then you keep lying about stuff to my face while claiming that your case makes sense.

[Thor665]

I don't like how he's lording his bizarre Smurf as a reason we should kiss his towny boots, the whole thing feels sake, he's a shared scumread of most of my townpool, and PoEing the people I'm not townreading I'm pretty sure we'll win this eventually, especially since I will nearly positively not die at night.

So, bad reads is your case on him?
I...can think of a number of players with iffy logic in this thread, what makes Dave the worst offender?

[Thor665]

I absolutely would not describe my scumread on him as 'Bad reads so scum' since that's the least of my concerns with his slot.

Hey, that's what you described when I asked you for the case - don't shoot the repeater of the message. Clarify it if you need to, but "scum reads my town reads" and "lording bizarre reasoning" is bad reads = scum last I checked.

I am not a fan of his scummy play = strategy thing either, but I flat out have seen *multiple* town players over the years do and claim this exact thing. It's not selling me as much as it's clearly selling you.

[Thor665]

My case history is that everyone smart calls out someone for doing what I did and calls them a liar. Every time.

I do not think you're dumb, so you were hedging.

You're always welcome to show where smart town hedged and prove me wrong.

Burden is on the persuader dude.

Burden is on the accused not the accuser?
Lulz.

But, okay;

Give me a suggestion for a good way to search for that in game threads and I'll happily provide examples.

[Thor665]

No.

I said 'He is scumread by my townreads.'

Very different.

Oh, okay, with the misspelling of fake right before it, I interpreted it as "he's shared scumreads of my townreads".
So your townreads are 3dice and Titus?
Or someone(s) else?

[Thor665]

This is not an easy thing to search Titus - no wonder you're (scummily) wanting me to do it and not do the reseacrh yourself.

Here I am, as town, being asked to claim something and basically telling the other player why it would be dumb regardless of my alignment to claim said thing.
I am town.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p6416608
I don't call them scummy for asking, but I do suggest it's dumb.

Here I am as town back in 2014 wondering why no one tried the "replace in claim" check on me, and noted that I didn't think it would work on me as a reaction test. Proving that I'm aware of it as a strategy, and also that I understand how it works, and understand how to, y'know, check myself before I wreck myself.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p6148943

Here I am replacing into a game, as town, you were in this game.
I reveal that I'm already aware of how much my role has claimed upon replacing in - suggesting I checked out some stuff in that regard. I guess you figure I don't do that no more?
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p6929726

That's all I got.
But I think it backs up what I've said more than what you've said.

[Thor665]

Postie, calling Ranger insane is insulting.

@Thor, you quoting that and arguing might save you a lot of hassle if you want to argue you're a special snowflake. I will be verifying it later but you're down from confscum to prob scum.

I cannot actually make this face hard enough to properly convey my reaction right now.

[Thor665]

You think I would at least get a "yeah, sorry, might have been stretching the truth a lot, Sorry Thor".
No such luck I suppose.

Sorry, Titus, for spanking your weak case in the face off the brilliantly difficult task of proving I'm not a newb town on his first revelation of the ruddy "lol, you already claimed" gambit that is so shockingly new and neat that very few have ever heard of it.

Dayvig: Titus

If you don't freak out, you must be scum!

[Thor665]

@Thor, Being an Aspie, I wouldn't get it anyway.

Then be aware of where it hurts you and don't random hard tunnel on derp and lies?

[Thor665]

I wasn't looking for a "freakout". Just a comment like follows:

Your dayvig is impossible. Nice try.

The grass is green.

[Thor665]

I wasn't looking for a "freakout". Just a comment like follows:

Your dayvig is impossible. Nice try.

The grass is green.

Why did you say that and spam?

I'm sorry, I thought we were claiming that only by stating a semi-proven, yet also fairly obvious thing when asked something silly (and assuredly *not* by saying "I don't see how this is relevant") would we show that we are town.
Is this not true?

A knife cuts.

[Thor665]

Except, you'd say it if it was that easy.

Yes, because Thor is absolutely known for never being sarcastic, or poking fun at questions he thinks are dumb, right?

Water is wet.

[Thor665]

I mean, I even directly addressed hos silly I thought your question was when you asked it - I straight up said "whaaaaat?".
Remember when you were trying to argue that I wasn't making a joke?
And now we have evidence to suggest I am well aware of how silly your reaction test was?

Also, while we're at it, we have glowing evidence (that you haven't read yet, because...y'know, three links to three posts is EPIC reading investment) that straight up shows that I know how the reaction test works.
If you know how that reaction test works...why would I be namby-pamby in the face of it?
In fact - the entire point of being namby-pamby...what did that get me? Did I need extra time to search my massive predecessor's isos? Was I buying time for that?
Ignoring the reasonable chance that I already did skim them, as other evidence shows I tend to do, and decided not to skim them again right away, why would I even bother to post a namby response?

But you're ignoring evidence and still picking at me, not changing your opinion in the face of new evidence.

That's why you're tunneled or scum.

[Thor665]

I am literally consistently voting the biggest scumread on mine and tried pushing Cakey for days. At this point, I am just voting the biggest wagon that's not on my townreads.

Funny how you come around to that as the wagon on you grows

While I did like his entry, the last page or so just looks like meaningless spam. I may be missing some context here, but yeah. Combined with the fact that his predecessors did nothing pro-Town in the slightest... Let's do it.

You are missing context, learn to read games in context so you don't need to put disclaimers on bad votes?

[Thor665]

Anarchy's vote on me basically screams that he read my short post "grass is green" and didn't bother to try to figure out what I was saying, or how it was a direct answer to ongoing revelations/
It also shows he is hard skimming.

@Anarchy - learn to sheep if you're not going to learn to work.
Or, feel free to back up how I'm posting "meaningless spam" because that is so blatantly wrong, you should be ashamed you posted it.

[Thor665]

Which, Anarchy?
Eh, maybe, but neither town nor scum benefits from posting provably wrong statements, and both do.
It's why I'm attacking Titus more on the bad logic shown in her statements. Anarchy said somethign false, but if true it makes sense to vote me over it. Titus said something false, but if true it still doesn't make sense as a reason to vote someone.

[Thor665]

Looking at my current wagon resurgence, I'd actually tag Expedience (with a Titus -> Thor vote move, which makes very little sense) as the worst reasoning and timing wise.

[Thor665]

Actually it was a Titus -> Postie -> Thor

Same point.

[Thor665]

You should still not vote Titus.

I have presented my issues with Titus - if you'd like to discuss what's wrong with them, feel free. But empty commentary isn't going to change my mind.

The Dave slot is "fine" as a lynch, but I am not a fan of the composition of that wagon.

[Thor665]

Everyone who is okay with voting Titus has voted Titus. That lynch isn't going to go through.
Move your vote somewhere where it'll have an impact and not further the chances of a No Lynch.

The same could be said for your Dave wagon, that is a comprimise wagon through and through.
And, incidentally, the Titus wagon is just as big as it.

So, no, not randomly getting off my top scum read to vote a compromise wagon that isn't much bigger, deadline or no.

[Thor665]

davesaz (4) - 3dicerolling, The Show Must Go On, Titus, Postie

Also, just looking at this.

We have a mild scumread of mine, being voted by...;

3dice (the OTHER compromise wagon of the day)
Titus (my top scumread)
Postie (a town read only by dint that I find your derp cases slightly more town minded, but not a person I would ever sheep, and a player I'd probably be okay compromising on to lynch)
and Show Must Go On - who, frankly, is mostly a town read by dint of not saying anything insane yet today, potentially due to being lurky and not actually explaining reads.

Yeah, wagon o' win right there!

I've got a scum read and a derp read voting me - derp read may be expected to place an actual vote when he reads me AND Titus pointing out that he hasn't read the thread. So, that vote will be moved to one of the top wagons, because Anarchy is a sheeper.

And we have Aero, a lurk read, who at least doesn't seem bought into the 'Titus must be town' cult.

That's two potential Titus votes right there, which is literally all I need to lynch my top scum read.

Of the people voting Dave, I think only you and Show have come out with calling Titus a "not lynch" read.
I don't recall 3dice's value call, but I'd wager he's a potential mover.
I'm willing to bet with the way you're wringing hands about no lynch AND have called Titus not a town read, but a potential verifiable read - that you also are a potential mover in a pinch.

So that's two other potential vote moves.

Wagon looks viable to me.

Aero should place a vote on Dave or Titus and make the value call for the day.

[Thor665]

I'd like to see Titus claim their protect target.

[Thor665]

@Titus - I think it's called a cross claim.

Also;

@Titus - why are you still attached to your Dave/Cakez/Thor scumteam in any way considering how Dave flipped? Why aren't you...y'know, reassessing things?

[Thor665]

I'll always be attached to SirCakez scum until he shows otherwise. I cannot remember the last time I was wrong reading him.

Okay, so he is scum due to tunnel.

But, with your conspiracy case falling down around your ears - where are your reads right now?

[Thor665]

Because theoretically you should have at least one of your "so obv. town as to allow us to PoE the game and point out how scum is desperately stuck in a corner" town reads being scum now, yeah?

[Thor665]

Sorry, Cakey is scum. I will worry about the other scum after I flip Cakey.

Said like so many scum.

The way you are defending him is still artificial. The fact is I haven't been wrong in reading Cakey in quite awhile. I'm perfectly fine starting with everything from a Cakey is scum position.

Pretty sure I haven't actually been defending him that much.
Also, if you know how to read him that well - what the hell were you doing attacking me and compromising onto Dave yesterday?

You don't like it, try to prove he's town. Attacking me for knowing how to read Cakey is going to get you nowhere stat.

Why don't you explain how to read Cakey, so the rest of the town can see what you see and sheep you?

[Thor665]

I would oppose any and all pre-made lists.
Popcorn or GTSO

1) Deflect less. It might help you in your quest to appear town.

2) That's exactly what you're doing now by chainsawing. I compromised onto Dave because my townreads weren't voting him so I had a zero percent chance of getting Cakey lynched. It was Dave or me. I still don't trust you to be town anyway.

3) I have and I'm demonstrating by examples when I'm interacting with Cakey but your mudslinging is interrupting the process.

1. Back up your claims, it would help you? I'm not even deflecting - I'm saying it didn't happen. Did it?

2.

3. Isn't the process over? And if not, if it's ongoing, maybe don't act like you have a read...unless that's part of the process, in which case meh, carry on I guess, let me know when you're sheepable.

[Thor665]

I love how excited everyone is that they're the special snowflakes that bypass popcorn due to secret scumhuntng.

I will admit to expecting to being somewhat underwhelmed across the board.

What's GTSO?

Recognize that I replace all curse words with Smurf.

[Thor665]

We were popcorning, then people broke the popcorning.

I'm actually okay with that, because the people stating reasons to break popcorn order and those agreeing with them is all part of the benefit of popcorning.

But the lists?
Don't make me laugh.
People can keep making them - I oppose all of them.

[Thor665]

Titus (3) - davesaz, Ranger, Thor665
davesaz (6) - 3dicerolling, The Show Must Go On, Titus, Postie, SirCakez, Anarchy Shard

Seriously, look at that davesaz wagon. At this point, the only players on there I wouldn't lynch are TheShowMustGoOn (who is town) and SirCakez (who is pretty obviously town).

Looking st this, I have to admit, if Ranger is town and looks town from his claim - I'm probably hard tunneling Titus.

[Thor665]

I'm tracker.

Night 1: 3dice went nowhere
Night 2: Aeronaut went nowhere

Popcorn

I really hate the way Thor has evaded claiming so far actually.

No one has chosen me yet.
Welcome to reality.
If you thought my claim was that importnat, then you should have stuck with your already crumbed role and popcorned to me, rather than trying to get RC to claim before you.

I understand you're desperate to claim last, but your priorities seem muddled in that goal.

[Thor665]

If Expe popcorns to me,I will react.

I never agreed to the claim order, I openly expressed distaste for the very concept of the claim order.
Isn't it just shocking that I'm not randomly following one of the multiple claim orders people tossed out.
Weird really, how dodgy Thor is...

[Thor665]

If it mattered to you that much, you should have popcorned to me while claiming future proof of role. That would have put you in the popcorn order, would have maintained your goal of claiming last while still (kinda) locking you in, and would have allowed you to express your top scumread in me (for...reasons...what is the case on me now that Dave is dead exactly?)

Instead you whine that I'm not following a claim order that the town as a whole never agreed to, and that I assuredly never agreed to, and acting like that's me being "difficult".

[Thor665]

Because popcorn is objectively a better method, and while we're at it, if you believe that - why did you hop onto the claim order bandwagon with your own suggested order?

[Thor665]

There reasons are not objective because they haven't been explained yet - but, okay, I guess you still trust them that hard.
Though you still didn't need to abandon popcorn to do so. At least not for Postie, whose the only one vaguely expressing some legit concepts to my mind justifying that claim order shift.

[Thor665]

Their*

[Thor665]

Pardon, semi-newbie question here.

Why does the claim order matter? Why not just have everyone claim in their next post?

Functionally it is best for scum to get to claim last, as it could allow them to game the claim system.
Basically; for all the reasons one would normally want scum to claim earliest and town to claim latest - it helps you spot lying scum.

[Thor665]

Like this here. Is this not a problem?

Depends on your reads - do you think it's a problem?

I find Postie pretty abhorrent on the town/scum scale, but also kinda like the bravado of the crumbing.
I am less sold on RC, and have no idea why they think they have the town cred to try to force a late claim.
What are your thoughts?

[Thor665]

VT

Popcorn - Aeronaut.

[Thor665]

I

still

don't get why we're massclaiming anyway.

I still think it's being pushed mainly by scum. (Namely, Titus and Postie.)

We're in for a penny in for a pound at this point anyway.

That said, it's Day 3, there have been no scum flips and also no PR flips.
It's a pretty good point to massclaim.

[Thor665]

It started because RC apparently has relevant results and wanted to out them.

Then why doesn't he? Unless these results are going to change based on claims (read: are fake), I still see little point in waiting.

That might be true - if, after he claims, there is no seeming reason for the wait, then we'll have something to talk about.

[Thor665]

Aero

should popcorn - then we'll know who's next.

[Thor665]

Yo to you?

[Thor665]

[Thor665]

I want Ranger to go next. She's already claimed anyway. 3dice can then go. Ranger needs to explicitly spell out Jail or Doc though.

3dice should then e pressured.

To your mind shouldn't Ranger go last, being confirmed town and all to you?

[Thor665]

I thought Ranger was tracker and I was blocked. Given RC soft, there are other explanations.

If you thought that, what did you think stopped the kill?

I'm so confused, I posted 17 hours ago?

You posted "Yo" a blatant prod dodge 17 hours ago.
I fully support mod's decision to replace you - you aren't participating in the game.

[Thor665]

I thought Ranger was tracker and I was blocked. Given RC soft, there are other explanations.

If you thought that, what did you think stopped the kill?

[Thor665]

So Show or Ranger are confirmed town.
I like Expedience and RC for town also.
Titus' play is poison, and even with scum presumed abilities it makes one wonder at his continued life.
Aero is less likely scum as long as we buy into Expedience.

I don't dislike the Anarchy lynch based off what I've seen in the game, but I remember when I replaced in there was a lot of talk about how obv. town he was - what happened to that?

@Titus - Why not lynch Cakez, who seemed to lack that?

[Thor665]

@Postie - while we're at it, is the claim and setup helping you "sort" Titus?

[Thor665]

Question.
If you think that Titus is scum, there is another scum in the PR claims.
Who is it? Postie or Expedience?

I do not follow how you conceptualize that.
Why is it that if Titus is scum a second scum needs to exist in the PR claims?

[Thor665]

@Titus - Why not lynch Cakez, who seemed to lack that?

@Titus - well, now that you're remembering that you would still want to lynch him over Anarchy, maybe just tell me why you were kinda vaguely buying into Anarchy during that sudden Anarchy rush?

[Thor665]

Do you think that there's an SK?

Because if you don't, there's guaranteed to be an odd number of PRs.

Hurm, that's a good point.
Though that would mean scum has been derpy enough to not kill a Doc for two nights.
Okay, let's lynch in the VTs, jail in the VTs, Track in the VTs, and Rolecop in the VTs.

^^^ Comments like this make me thing you know Anarchy is town.


I was derping all over the place last night. Wanted to check my work.

Riiiiight.
Feel free to engage brain anytime now.
If you were derping so badly as to mess up your reads - how exactly is me noting that indicitive of me being scum rather then town who has you as a top scumspect and is aware of your reads?
Shocking, I know.

Vote: Aeronaut

[Thor665]

Or Postie & Titus or both scum but I don't see that as likely atm.

I've had Postie as derpy town for some time now.
Titus is being saved by setup spec.

I don't see both of them being scum and going after me the way they did (I know Titus will think that doesn't make sense, and that scum exactly do that, albeit mostly to partners, but...)

Oh, and Thor: What happened to Aero being likelier to be town based on the tracker result?

You cleared Titus in my mind.
That leaves us with a number of slots, Sir Cakez strikes me as, amongst the possibilities, the one least likely to go along with the derp idea of not killing a town Titus.
Aero has been absent enough to let the derp run the house.
The others all seem along the lines to think that clever for some reason.
Aero slot has less info known about him, and is thus more useful to just axe while investigative info can be assessed in light of other slots' play.

[Thor665]

If you believe only Anarchy is that bad - your case only has support if Anarchy is solo scum, which we know is not the case.
There have to be multiple bad slots, or multiple slots that would convince themselves the gambit is good.

3dice is pretty absentee, he has not been as absentee as Aero - which doesn't take a lot of doing, but still.

[Thor665]

Remember what alignment you were last time your reasoning was this Smurf?

I'll guess you're referencing a scum game of mine.
I also will bet that in that game I noted that I didn't think you could read me, and that I was pressing things I would have pressed as town.
So - I don't really care.

If you think Cakez is town and you claim to be town and you believe all PRs are town that autoleads you to Anarchy/3Dice/FA.
Yet you won't vote Anarchy or 3Dice.

So, ok?

So...what evidence are you using to suggest I "won't" and in what universe do you not understand the point of voting Aero's slot?
So, okay?

@Thor/Cakey/Anarchy/RC

Thoughts of town!RC trying to check Ranger N1 but checking me instead by accident? Plausible yes or no?

How would you suppose that scum would have done that?

The depths to which Cakey is defended also don't sit right to me.

How is anyone besides me defending Cakey - and, after your push on Thor/Cakey/Dave and Dave's flip how is my defense surprising or out of sorts?

[Thor665]

Why are you so convinced we should lynch within the PRs as opposed to the VTs?

[Thor665]

I'm still trying to figure out the people connecting you and Anarchy in their heads, myself.

But Postie + Titus feels like pretty deprtastic scum play to me. You see them both going balls deep derp in their push on me yesterday?

[Thor665]

I'm still intrigued that the Postie/Titus connection is being sold.

Exactly, why is it hard to get votes onto CAkey, Thor and FA?

Because that case makes as much sense as your Thor/Cakey/Dave case - and you're not even selling any actual case beyond wailing the names?
Also Thor is voting FA, and ducked the easy Anarchy wagon to do so.
Also, aren't you voting AS right now?
I want to smack you upside the head if you're town.

becuase I think their power role is between them. I can go with anarchy lynch too

What makes you so convinced that 2 scum opted to fakeclaim PRs?
I'll agree if scum is fakeclaiming, two are doing it, but what makes you think they'd go for that at that stage?

[Thor665]

There are scummy players inside TPR claimers (>.> Titus) so I think I like to call 2 scum are in there.

The problem with that, is I don't think there are logical partners for Titus in there.

Thor, your question is completely unnecessary. Like you've caught on to FA having a bad stance on this and want to get her to repeat it so you can stride in at the end with all the answers to your questions lined up

Oh really? Please go find me where she indicated that her reason for finding two scum amongst the PRs is that Titus is so scummy there must be another.
I'll wait.

Also "intrigued" that's so terrible.

So is connecting Postie to Titus - what word would have made you happier for me to use?

I actually started reading your posts lately rather than just hearing them and think you could be scum.

Really? How come?
Also if you have logic connecting me to FA I'd be, dare I say, intrigued to hear it.

[Thor665]

So PoE is you three.

That PoE is based on you being town and also based on you accurately knowing multiple people's meta correctly (and based on me bussing - which, if you were aware of my current meta, you wouldn't suggest, which makes me suspect your other meta is bad).

Not really impressed, I have to say.

FA's not making sense and trying to push PR lynched over VTs. Unless she has some kind of silver bullet she's declining to share with us, that's not a Town plan.

Wouldn't it be advantageous for scum to push whichever group had less scum? If scum are 2 or 3 in VTs, good scum play is to push PRs. If scum are 2 in PRs then it's good to push VTs. So either push either way is only scummy depending on where the scum are or are not.

From my stand view I can't beleive that all of the scum team claimed VT. They have no control on game that way.

I agree with this. The problem is, the only other way is for multiple scum to claim PR (or we've had a laughably unlucky SK)
They did have ample time to discuss it in QT if Titus is scum, so a multiple scum move is maybe believable, but even in that situation there is one scum in VTs.
The VTs are the group that is guranteed to have scum, no matter what scum claimed, is I think my point.

I want someone testing Titus and I want someone testing the someone who is testing titus. the rest be on VT's I don't care.

my proposal : Postie jail keep Titus , expe tracking Postie

or expe checking Titus , RC checking expe

This way tpr's will be tested out semi completly

I don't see how either of those check anything.

To my mind we have one generally agreed upon cleared town PR - Ranger (I also, personally, add Expe to the list, but agree that is more a read than a confirm).
As a Doc, he can protect an investigative - our best investigative to target PRs is the rolecop.

I would suggest the following;
Rolecop - Titus (though, honestly, we could make this Postie, I suppose).
Ranger protects rolecop.
Titus protects Ranger.

Jailkeeper targets a calimed VT.
Tracker targets whomever he wishes.

The next day we see who is standing.
Tracker claims result last.

That looks like a better play to me, yeah?
Shoot holes in it (other than busdriver - but we can't do much about that)

Unvote: Frozen Angel

[Thor665]

so thats tonight plan. I guess the main flaw of it is RC - Titus scum team.

There are a massive amount of flaws in it beyond that.

But the core point is - we have 1 or 3 scum in the VTs.
We have 0 or 2 scum in the PRs.

[Thor665]

who do you suspect more in VT's ?

That's a good question that I don't have a solid answer for.
I would say I see both 3dice and Anarchy as good lynches. Due to my issues with Titus I think Cakez is a poor lynch, as if he is scum I tend to see there being two additional scum amongst the VTs, so we basically could barely pick wrong at that stage. The catch of that is it is predicated on my issue with Titus and presuming that any scum pairing amongst the PRs would, by definition, include Titus. I'm not sure if that's a safe conf. bias to be living with though, but I also don't really see any other pairing that makes me salivate as much.

[Thor665]

I'm pulling together a very surface level VCA glance - but looking back, Anarchy and Titus both jumped on SirCakez at day start - I think that suggests that neither is likely scum with SirCakez nor with each other.

I will admit an Anarchy scum flip would make me feel that Titus is more likely town.

@FA - who do you see as the most likely scum PR pairing that is NOT a pairing with Titus in it?

[Thor665]

presuming that any scum pairing amongst the PRs would, by definition, include Titus.

This is true, for the record.

Is it?
Like, you see no other way a scum pairing there could exist?

[Thor665]

ConManMick

(7) -

davesaz

,

Heartless

, Expedience, The Show Must Go On, Titus, SirCakez, Frozen Angel
Expedience (2) - Anarchy Shard, 3dicerolling
SirCakez (3) – Thor665, Postie,

ConManMick

3dicerolling (1) - Ranger


Not Voting:

Titus (3) -

davesaz

, Ranger, Thor665

davesaz

(6) - 3dicerolling, The Show Must Go On, Titus, Postie, SirCakez, Anarchy Shard
Thor665 (1) - Expedience


Not Voting: Frozen Angel

[Thor665]

Can someone remind me why we're clearing Ranger - I feel like that was pretty likely.
Because if we're clearing Ranger for solid reasons a valid lynch option becomes me - then lynch Titus if I flip town based off the final vote tally from yesterday.

Sir Cakez was the deciding vote move (vaguely) in the battle between lynch SirCakez and Dave. With a Dave town flip, that actually strongly suggests to me that either Titus is scum, and that was a potential save, or both were town, and Cakez was scum who didn't give a fig. Kind of a soft tell because of how hard it was to build the Titus wagon in the face of the claim.

There is pretty much assuredly at least one scum in this list, and potentially two;
Expedience, The Show Must Go On, Titus, SirCakez, Frozen Angel

[Thor665]

I am not likely to heal Ranger again. Healing Ranger is a waste FMPOV. Ranger's death (if town) confirms Postie as town to me. I don't expect Ranger to heal me either as my death confirms Postie as town to him.

Don't really care - the point is to help out the people not claiming to be Doctor roles.

The only ways to get two liars fmpov is Ranger + RC or RC + Exp, or Exp + Ranger (bus driver spent N1).

How does a Ranger scum work in your universe without TSMGO scum considering no kill last night?

[Thor665]

I am not likely to heal Ranger again. Healing Ranger is a waste FMPOV. Ranger's death (if town) confirms Postie as town to me. I don't expect Ranger to heal me either as my death confirms Postie as town to him.

Don't really care - the point is to help out the people not claiming to be Doctor roles.

The only ways to get two liars fmpov is Ranger + RC or RC + Exp, or Exp + Ranger (bus driver spent N1).

How does a Ranger scum work in your universe without TSMGO scum considering no kill last night?

RC was the death target but in jail.

Yeah, but wouldn't that make TSMGO the shooter?
He was the Night 2 jail.

So if Ranger is scum, and no kill happened, and you targeted Ranger Night 2, and TSMGO was JKept by Postie, for Ranger to be scum either his team no killed or TSMGO is his partner, right?

[Thor665]

I guess Titus could also argue for an SK - but, though I mildly like an SK narrative as it makes it easier to lynch Titus, I don't think it makes sense without a lot of the protective roles still being town.

[Thor665]

TSMGO = RC, okay.
Titus isn't going insane.

[Thor665]

Titus (3) - davesaz, Ranger, Thor665

@Titus - with the above vote count, and with the awareness that Expe and Cakez were the only other people voting that wagon - why are you okay with the Anarchy lynch?

[Thor665]

And yeah, Thor's voting AS: but he tried to get FA going and jumped on the AS wagon when it looked rather likely to go through.

I did what in the where now?

[Thor665]

In my imaginary word that Ranger can be scum there is a bus driver who changed the result of RC! and FA a VT claimer shot RC !

This is a valid point, it rules out his Exp/Ranger team.

Meaning the top PR scumspect for Titus, by definition, should only be TSMGO=RC, because if any PRs are lying, it has to include RC (or Titus)

@RC - can you toss out the only false PRs you see, you seemed to indicate Titus had to be scum, I'd like you to dwell on that for a spell.

[Thor665]

Titus (3) - davesaz, Ranger, Thor665

@Titus - with the above vote count, and with the awareness that Expe and Cakez were the only other people voting that wagon - why are you okay with the Anarchy lynch?

Context for this VC is needed.

Its called "All of Day 2"
Those were the players that voted you.

[Thor665]

Where is Titus advertising Ranger scum? Is it because she doesn't want to heal?

Go read Titus' posts - the basic logic is she thinks her protects should be based on what she knows as opposed to what town can confirm.

[Thor665]

Booo. I think it's Cakey Thor you. Ranger scum is just still theoretically possible. Booooo.

Which of those do you see as potential scum with TSMGO = RC?

[Thor665]

Where is Titus advertising Ranger scum? Is it because she doesn't want to heal?

Nope she started to prove ranger might be scum

I don't think that's particularly true.

[Thor665]

Oh, you're not voting AS? I thought you were.

I am not, and never have been.

If there's scum in the PRs, yes. Titus has to be scum.
Almost guaranteed to be scum with Postie as well.

There are assuredly some other potential matchups methinks.
Though I guess that would make my Day 2 feel pretty good, if true.

I am not getting this at all. If you think I am ok with an Anarchy lynch, you're insane. (I misread your question.) AS wants to lynch Cakey, was obvtown D1. I have been fighting not to lynch AS. So why do you think I am ok with it?

Because of the Anarchy push that you handwaved as sleep deprived Titus and then attacked me over pointing out.
If your AS town push has been hyper strong - it's odd that it got distracted by being sleepy once.

She is just trying to escape from healing Ranger to kill her without being confirmed scum.

Maybe - but that's different then really selling Ranger scum.
I also don't see the advantage for scum Titus to do so.

Besides, aren't you scumreading Titus? What do you care who she heals if you don't really think she's a Doc?

she is trying to get away with murder saying she wasn't healing the obvtown.

Nope. Keep flailing. Healing Ranger is the stupidest heal for me to make.

why? explain this please. I'm anxious to hear

Ranger dying = Postie conftown.

Only explained it like 10 times.

Wouldn't you like to obligate scum to burn a strongman in order to kill a Doc and confirm a town player for you?

[Thor665]

Can you stop spamming FA (likely futile request)? AS needs to give last reads and I wanna talk to RC and Thor.

@Thor, I am allowed a moment of weakness when sleepy. I wanted to work with RC but I just didn't see a way for AS to be scum.

Scum have more then a Strongman. Plus, Postie can heal me or Ranger.

Postie jailing a Doc is dumb. That's one less protective effect in play.
If scum have a Busdriver, then your target action of choice is even better spent on Ranger, and I am fine with other potential burns of their powers to battle a protection on a near confirmed town, who, even in your value call, is near confirmed. You can't confirm gak with your power - protect near confirmeds - fething simple. That's what Docs do.
If you are allowed a moment of weakness, I am allowed to question it.

[Thor665]

If Postie claims that we will discuss it, I suppose.

[Thor665]

@Thor, Postie's jailkeep is best used as a heal. I think.

I agree - but not at the cost of another heal or an investigate.

Do you think RC is town?

Feels more town than you, I was going on at length yesterday about how objectionable I found your play, nothing that has happened today changed that much except for a need to tag in the VTs more than the PRs.

[Thor665]

Thor, I am Virtue (alt was busted elsewhere). You have grave issues with my personality than my play.

Maybe, or maybe the way you play just inherently looks scummy to me.

If scum don't know who Postie is targeting, or Postie targets a doc claimer and we both heal postie that's win win.

No it isn't, the strongman isn't a one layer effect - he's infinite per wording.

[Thor665]

Yeah,we're saying the same thing on my play different words.

So, your point there?

That I think playstyle and personality are different things.
Beyond that; I'm not sure, you're the one who brought it up.
In that game I read you correctly at the important points, and am not advocating your lynch today in this game.
So, what are you looking for here? Me to fall on my knees and plead wrongness? Nah - you're inventing a derptard three scum buss push reverse yesterday, and today you were proven wrong and just flipped out one name, and both days your pushes seemed awkward considering your stated beliefs.

[Thor665]

@Titus - were you on Postie?

[Thor665]

I got a vanilla on Thor.

Still thinking.

Why in the universe would you target a claimed VT over a claimed PR?

[Thor665]

I checked Thor because I felt like his being off the Anarchy wagon was really deliberate and I figured if there's 3 scum in the VTs at least one of them needs to be bandying for towncred.

How did it feel deliberate to you? It was kind of a rushed wagon.

If I got a doctor check it would confirm the target as scum, likely PR, and that all the PRs are town.
If I got a Joat/BD check it gets us scum.

Getting a vanilla result on Thor is Smurfy but that doesn't make the play wrong.

I'm reasonably comfortable with you being town here anyway.

So, basically, you could have confirmed something - or confirmed nothing, and you opted for the latter.
I have a very long history of claiming PRs when a scum PR and VT when a scum Goon with no cross contamination of those plays, so I waseven literlly the worst choice of the VTs to pick.

I townread all three of the lynches we've had so far and voted for two of them. I'm doing something wrong somewhere. :/

Hint - it's voting people you say you townread. That's called scum play, not town play.

[Thor665]

Yeah Titus is scum. Town Titus wouldn't be deathtunneling like this in MyLo.

Why do you say that?

I'm not sure I believe scum!RC would fake a rolecop result on Thor before I got in here when there was a good chance Thor could have been my jailkeep target, being my top scumread and all.

I would agree with this, RC/Titus would make less sense than an RC/Postie in that case, and that combo can't exist without a third scum PR.

[Thor665]

RC/Titus/Postie?
A RC scum flip would basically confirm both of the latter two as scum because bus bus bus

Where's the SK then?

[Thor665]

Let's discuss no lynching and PR plays.

Titus can protect RC, since they're so buddy, and Ranger can protect Postie.
Postie and RC can target whomever.
RC claims first day after.

Obligates scum to off a PR, which narrows our potential PR liars, or to off a VT, which narrows our VT pool.
Seems like a win all around.

[Thor665]

I townread all three of the lynches we've had so far and voted for two of them. I'm doing something wrong somewhere. :/

Hint - it's voting people you say you townread. That's called scum play, not town play.

I like how you kept saying you were townreading me but now suddenly my play is scummy.

No, what I'm doing is explaining what you're doing wrong.
I've called you a town read for a while.
Please feel free to point out any stage where I suggested your play was good or non-scummy.
I have repeatedly noted how bad I thought your play was so...y'know, learn to read.

[Thor665]

Because Town!Titus wouldn't deathtunnel in MyLo Thor?

Awesome!
And...why do you believe that?

[Thor665]

I've had Postie as derpy town for some time now.

Hint - this is not an endorsement of your play.

[Thor665]

No, what I'm doing is explaining what you're doing wrong.

The fact that I shouldn't have voted my townreads was what I was saying in that post, and pretty clearly too. Please don't make ambiguous comments that could be interpreted as a scumread and then tell me their only purpose was to express condescension.

Please don't describe your strategy at any point in the future as voting your town reads.
There is literally NEVER a time where that is the correct play.
Yes - I was expressing condescension - your comment was along the same lines as people who join games and then lurk and proddodge the entire time while being town. You apparently are actively playing against your wincon (unless you're scum - in which case, good work).

[Thor665]

Please don't describe your strategy at any point in the future as voting your town reads.
There is literally NEVER a time where that is the correct play.
Yes - I was expressing condescension - your comment was along the same lines as people who join games and then lurk and proddodge the entire time while being town. You apparently are actively playing against your wincon (unless you're scum - in which case, good work).

My vote on davesaz was a compromise because I wasn't going to vote Titus and the day would have ended in a No Lynch otherwise; the vote on Anarchy was because I trusted RC's read on the slot and you/Cakez didn't seem to be happening. Please don't misrepresent that as a "strategy", and please don't be purposefully condescending in future when I already know I messed up; that doesn't accomplish anything except making me want to vote you out of frustration. How counter-intuitive your attitude has been towards me this game is the only reason I'm pushing for a SirCakez lynch today instead of yours.

I apologize for being bothered by your play longer than you have been.

I'd rather not NL since we potentially have several save opportunities to get us another mislynch for basically autowin.

That seems a fairly random gamble though, also a no kill tonight is hardly an autowin.

I prefer no lynch over lynching basically everyone in the playerlist beside Titus

Do you have any thoughts on optimal night actions.

[Thor665]

The most logical viewpoints to me are Cakey/FA/Thor (with Thor being my least confident read) and Cakey/RC/Ranger. If we suppose setup 1, Thortown means 3dice was game throwing scum.

To your first one, I have been rolecopped and FA has been jailed - that objectively suggests both of us are less likely scum (especially since, I have only a 7.69% chance to be scum or 33% even if you are absolutely assured of me having a scum role - neither are particularly impressive numbers at this stage of the game). Also, I think subjectively my play with FA makes no sense as to my scum meta for the past year or two (whenever I decided to stop bussing altogether).

Is there any logic to an RC/Ranger/Cake scumteam outside of your need to be town in your theory?

[Thor665]

I am not being restrained again. Any "plan" creates the benefits you mention.

Yeah, but some of you PRs being dead and/or giving results are way more useful to those of us who aren't claimed PRs.
So stop being blind about that.

[Thor665]

You know how I feel about meta.

That you are one of those people who feel a need to distance from it to such a degree as to hinder your play as much/more than the people who act married to it. Yes.

Doesn't stop my point from being factually provable - which would then require your case for Thor scum to be "and he decided to change his meta this game, despite all his listed reasons for why he no longer buses being identical to when he first started playing that way...but I'mma town, so it's helpful for Thor to be scum!"

If I townread RC (and it's hard not to based on play), then I have to suppose 1 scum in Ranger with a crosskilling/unlucky as Smurf SK or all PRs are town.

I agree - for you and RC to both be town requires a bit of mental gymnastics.

For an RC, Ranger, SirCakez team, here's how that works. Ranger implies a guilty, but doesn't outright state it. Scum notice Postie's jailkeeper crumb and have Ranger claim Doctor. RC supports Ranger's claim. Then, town does most of the work in mislynching me while RC keeps her hands clean. Given that jailkeeper doctor doctor is a possibility, Ranger isn't turbolynched after I flip town. RC picks you to rolecop as a matter of politicing not solving the game. RC suggested that Expedience check the VTs when Expedience checking RC is the better play to confirm a lot of what they are saying and get a clear result on me. The day ended though before we could solve this. RC is very much about perception management as scum from NY 192 and the one open as his alt. He'd lynch people to avoid the townblocks where they are forming. RC has never absolutely ever justified why not Cakey.

How does that work with a town Postie considering his claimed actions?

[Thor665]

ConManMick

(7) -

davesaz

,

Heartless, Expedience

, The Show Must Go On, Titus, SirCakez, Frozen Angel

Expedience

(2) -

Anarchy Shard

, 3dicerolling
SirCakez (3) – Thor665, Postie,

ConManMick

3dicerolling (1) - Ranger


Not Voting:

Titus (3) -

davesaz

, Ranger, Thor665

davesaz

(6) - 3dicerolling, The Show Must Go On, Titus, Postie, SirCakez,

Anarchy Shard

Thor665 (1) -

Expedience

Not Voting: Frozen Angel


I no longer believe all the PRs.

Looks like a Titus or RC value call to me.

[Thor665]

@Thor, I was saying the opposite. RC (without any setup knowledge) is a dead null. It's not hard to see RC as either alignment.

How do you see him as scum other than setup spec?

I don't even get what you're saying in the first quote.

I'm typing in English - what part confuses you?

[Thor665]

Actually, I don't need convincing.

Vote: Radiant Cowbells

Rolecopping a VT is basically a "this investigation helps nothing unless a scum PR claimed VT" play.

[Thor665]

@Thor, All of it. Rephrase please. I want to be able to answer.

Ooooooooooookay.
This is going to sound insulting, but when I hear "all of it" I have no other way to translate for you.

[1]You know how I feel about meta.

[2]That you are one of those people who feel a need to distance from it to such a degree as to hinder your play as much/more than the people who act married to it. Yes.

[3]Doesn't stop my point from being factually provable - [4]which would then require your case for Thor scum to be "and he decided to change his meta this game, despite all his listed reasons for why he no longer buses being identical to when he first started playing that way...but I'mma town, so it's helpful for Thor to be scum!"

1. You are dismissing meta.
2. I am pointing out that ignoring HOW PEOPLE PLAY THE GAME is basically stupid. I mean, like, if I voted Fate off of not making a case, or voted MoI off of making walls I would be a fething idiot, because they both do that regardless of alignment. That is information I can go and get off them by looking at past games. So, meta, when it can be independantly verified, and confirmed as true is REALLY USEFUL. Now, if one can debate it, it becomes less useful, and I also, as I said there, not saying meta is the be all and end all, anyone who ignores it is stupid, and anyone who is married so hard to it they start saying idiot things like "I always read 'Player X' correctly" are also equally stupid. But the simple question of "does Thor bus, and if so how?" is something you can check on. Your case requires me to bus in a dumb and soft way - something I have not done for literally a few years.

So why the hell am I having to explain to you why your case is dumb, and why the hell are you not even willing to fact check me when I say this to you, and instead give me the lazy/stupid answer of "blurg, META, I ignorez it!" Well - whoop-dee-doo, congrats for playing badly, I suppose?

3. A point is factually provable - research it or at least accept my word if you're too lazy to do some minor research.

4. This is me making fun of your bad case, and also pointing out how a scum you benefits from playing in this bad way in order to press a case that is functional for you, but a case that would also require you to stop scumhunting to believe, making you either scum or a bad player, take your pick.

Do you understand my commentary now?

Out of curiosity, Cakey/FA/3dice doesn't work for you? Why?

Because it requires a mix of bad play and bad voting habits to be true, and 3dice gang jumping Dave over a Doc, and FA and Cake both helping him while both still listing you as a top scum read seems dumb also to basically sheep your case on Dave.

[Thor665]

Assuming you're town, I had a 2/4 shot of getting a guilty in the VTs.
Acting like that check doesn't make sense is complete fucking nonsense considering I have already said that I've come around to Titus and Postie being town.

VOTE: Thor

Town thor isn't this dumb. end conversation.

Explain it to me then, because I'm still too dumb to get it. Even presuming I am assured town, how does that get you 2/4 success ratio in the VTs?
Because that would actually require every single PR to be town for it to be true.
Did you believe that last night?

[Thor665]

And even if you did, why would I be dumb not to understand that - since I am openly on record as...y'know, not really believing that.
And even if I did believe it then it would be a gut read, and sorta dumb either way.

[Thor665]

Not sure how to look at this. You had troubles with titus / postie all over past days and they never resolved ever.

how your convinced its RC - Ranger or Rc -postie instead of the other options?

and how you suddenly started townreading all VT's to go after tpr's? Not sure I understand the point of your vca

You're saying "not understand" a lot, while assessing to me reads I never satted, so let's just run down the line.

1. I did have troubles with Titus and Postie, but (as Postie kind of misremembered also) I was *long* on record for Postie town. I think I argued with you multiple times about it yesterday, so...you not recalling that is adding to your confusion. As to the Titus thing, yeah, he sucks, but I have the new RC info to look at now too - RC's investigation looked town to you?

2. Mostly by the lack of sense in investigating me. Yesterday RC seemed to understand the real question was amongst the PRs. Last night he decided to investigate me for...reasons that I don't think make sense. Do you think they make sense? He's also now voting me, in mylo, when his investigations suggest I'm the second least likely scum in the entire game all while calling me stupid. Think about that for a moment and get back to me.

3. I never started townreading all VTs and said nothing of the sort - can you quote where you think I did?

[Thor665]

Because it requires a mix of bad play and bad voting habits to be true, and 3dice gang jumping Dave over a Doc, and FA and Cake both helping him while both still listing you as a top scum read seems dumb also to basically sheep your case on Dave.

With a confirmed 5 PRs on town I think it's pretty clear that scum would have thought that Titus would get lynched during the massclaim when she was as heavily scumread as she was.
I wouldn't have had to point that out to you if you were town.

I agree that scum would have wanted to push for a Titus lynch...I think that belief backs up what I'm saying.
What are you saying?

Explain it to me then, because I'm still too dumb to get it. Even presuming I am assured town, how does that get you 2/4 success ratio in the VTs?
Because that would actually require every single PR to be town for it to be true.
Did you believe that last night?

Do I need to copy paste every single time that I've said that I believed that last night?

Yes, you do.
Preferably from any period *prior* to last night phase.
I'll wait.

[Thor665]

1) Yes. I tend to do that unless I feel I know someone people rather well, yes I do. I don't think we've rolled scum together in years, if at all. I have a dickens of a time reading you (unless I'm in a lylo situation and it's super obvious). Your head is an enigma to me (which is why I enjoy playing with you a lot).

2) Ok, how does my case require you to be dumb as bricks?

1. None of that matters - I have games in existence.
I have Newbie games.
I have scum QTs.
Feel free to find me ever suggesting bussing as a strategy I think is good at any point within the last 2 years (and I'm saying that, it might be longer - this is not a new thought from me).

2. I never claimed it did, so what are you asking me to defend here?

[Thor665]

RC investigation is weird.

But that proved he is scum to you?

Define "proved" but, yes, in a general sense.

[Thor665]

@Titus - Oh, I see, the dumb bus.

That would be the Aero one.
That was a dumb bus.

[Thor665]

Your voting him in mylo.

How much closer can you be to be sure about something ?

If I was an investigative role or had confirmable evidence.
We have neither of those things - this is a value call based off play and supposition. To call it "proved" to me would be a lie, it is not, it is my opinion he is scum, no more, no less.

[Thor665]

Like, even if I wasn't townreading Titus/Postie?

I certainly wouldn't have fucking targeted Titus. That's Smurf play.

Oh yeah, why?
That would have confirmed to you that three scum were in four slots.
By investigating me you're left with only your opinion that 3 scum are in 4 slots, and also, though you have reason to suspect I'm town presuming 3 of the VTs are scum, you still don't know that for sure. Making the stab functionally meaningless unless you hit the 50% accuracy off of a supposition as opposed to confirming the supposition as factual.

[Thor665]

Your opinion had a certain kind of certainty that made you vote the slot

which is the basic thing makes me feel bad about your vote.

I don't even know how to respond to this - draw your own conclusions.

@Thor+RC, Cakey reads please

If RC is scum, I would bounce him much higher into likely scum than 3dice.
That's all I've got for you.

[Thor665]

Explain it to me then, because I'm still too dumb to get it. Even presuming I am assured town, how does that get you 2/4 success ratio in the VTs?
Because that would actually require every single PR to be town for it to be true.
Did you believe that last night?

Do I need to copy paste every single time that I've said that I believed that last night?

Yes, you do.
Preferably from any period *prior* to last night phase.
I'll wait.

[Thor665]

I actually kind of love the moment when a vote springs the thread to frantic life.
I have to admit, I'm looking at RC's knee jerk and am still loving my vote.

By RC's current claimed beliefs, she thinks 3 scum are in 3dice/Cake/FA/Thor
She knows for a fact that I am either VT or Goon, and knows nothing about the others other than FA being jailed on a night a kill happened.
That makes me one of the least likely VTs to be scum.
She voted me after I voted her.
Do I smell someone worried about the PoE of lack of being hammered?
Because that's what I'm feeling right now.

@RC - I note none of those are from prior to today.
You also were calling me town, and saying you were clearing Postie based off your Titus read only.
If that's your evidence - rock on.

[Thor665]

FA was tracked, not jailed. But same basic info available.

[Thor665]

who was in jail last night ?

Cakez

I'm fascinated, really.

What are those 'bad voting patterns' and things that make you interpret 3dice/FA/Cakez as not a possibility? I'll wait.

The float off Titus requiring all three scum on Dave would be my primary example - that looked normal to you if they're all scum?

Make this short guys. I'm like super caring about vote patterns and there's not a group scum flip so :/

Yeah, because it's impossible to pump in your theory scumspects and ask if it makes sense.

It wasn't a terrible move, no.
but why would I as scum argue against it when I was planning to kill him anyway?

The easy answer to that would be - you would have preferred killing someone other than Expedience.
Or, maybe you play scum like I do, and wouldn't push something you couldn't at least generally believe in.
Or, maybe we could note that you didn't even argue against it that much (if at all - I just recall you suggesting he target a VT) so I don't even see the point here.

[Thor665]

Holy Smurf the pretend idiocy is real.

If I were scum I'm claiming that you are scum anyway: so my not being hammered just forces a 1v1 between me and you
Except it doesn't because it's MyLo not LyLo and therefore your entire post is entirely meaningless.

Thor's not an idiot as much as he's pretending to be. he's just scum.

Thor: RC's play is so bad, I read it as scum.

RC: Thor's play in reading me as scum is so bad he must be scum, damn Thor, how can you be this bad?



Sounds like you should understand the concept of my case on you, yeah?

[Thor665]

Regardless, RC's confirmed town from this.

*cough*

[Thor665]

I note that Thor has claimed 'Associatives say otherwise!' as an excuse to not vote any of the VT claims,

I note that what I actually claimed was that FA/Cakez/3dice doesn't make sense to me due to associatives.
I even. at your request, stated what associative I had issue with there.
You are now back to generic attacks on the comment while misrepresenting what I actually said.

I mean Thor sudden push for RC instead of no lynch after he realized people want to lynch instead of no lynch seems a bit opportunistic.

You literally described the proper reaction from me regardless of alignment - then called it opportunistic.
If I thought the best move was no lynch, and it became clear to me that no one agreed (and actually I don't think that's provable) then, yes, my options are to dig in my heels an dbe useless, or to push my top scumread.

What's the "opportunism" there, exactly?

You keep saying things that don't make sense (as a note, your 'confused' post and my answers to you - you're making stuff up, why are you doing that repeatedly?)

I don't feel comfortable picking between the two of RC/Thor. I should because it's just going to make optimal scum play a duh, but I want Cakey. I feel much better about that. Everyone else has given me town before at some point.

I would note that Cakez has been soft buddying me, while not actually voting RC and is instead pushing you.
If you think he is scum, I would think that would make your conclusion of his lynch preference easy to spot.

[Thor665]

Yeah opportunistic as it seems you wanted to advertise no lynch just to apear town not getting more intel and you wanted a lynch so bad that when you saw someone else wants lynching so hard it you jumped all over the idea and tried to change its direction.

what about it is the proper reaction? If you truly believed a no lynch will grant us more data why instead of fighting for it you surrendered to Titus as soon as she declared she won't back of?

Well, it actually comes down to the point of no lynching.
At the time I wanted to no lynch I didn't have a solid enough universal town read - so scum could have killed literally anyone and I would have been fine with it as it would have eliminated a scumspect.
Then Titus brought up the chance of an RC jail stopping the scum trigger puller, and, in looking at that, combined with Postie's crumbs and RC's night action of derp, it painted RC as highly likely scum in my mind.
At that stage I was fine with a lynch.

Your concept of me being opportunistic requires that 1. I believe no lynching is super pro town (and any check of me describing no lynch will prove this is not the case)
2. I believe that another round of night actions gives us a lot of good info (I don't, and it doesn't outside of the kill)
3. That I'm not comfortable being stubborn (which...I don't feel I need to defend against)

So, no, I don't see the opportunism. I suspect that if scumThor thought a lynch was a good play, he would have just advanced the lynch idea straight up.
I've never been a shy or subtle scum - it's a well known part of my meta that everyone in the deadQT always bemoans how obvious I am at being scum, so the changing gears opportunism is silly because why bother?

[Thor665]

3) Claimed an inno on Thor, who I then planned to push on anyway?

You obviously didn't plan the push on me.
It showed up only after I voted you.

Not sure I'm buying your self meta and "I don't see opportunism in my play".

I need a reread at this point. again.

1. Then research my meta - I have never lied about it once because even as scum i wouldn't say something that could be proved a lie. But go ahead, check me out, what do you get?

2. If you don't buy not seeing the opportunism then it's on you to suggest how I advanced no lynching, but then reversed to lynching as a play that helped me as scum. Advancing no lynch as scum at this point was meh, so why bother? Advancing a lynch was expected, so why duck around it? And before you come back with the derp, I'm not suggesting it's a town tell - I'm just suggesting it's not a scum tell, which is something you're claiming while not explaining how it's helping me as scum. Stop derping.

[Thor665]

Holy Smurf the pretend idiocy is real.

If I were scum I'm claiming that you are scum anyway: so my not being hammered just forces a 1v1 between me and you
Except it doesn't because it's MyLo not LyLo and therefore your entire post is entirely meaningless.

Thor's not an idiot as much as he's pretending to be. he's just scum.

Thor: RC's play is so bad, I read it as scum.

RC: Thor's play in reading me as scum is so bad he must be scum, damn Thor, how can you be this bad?



Sounds like you should understand the concept of my case on you, yeah?

I would still also like to note that RC ducked this comment.
Which I think is kind of a big deal.

[Thor665]

I await either

1) An explanation of why I should have instead checked someone who I expect to get a town result and not narrow down the 1/4 town in the VTs.
or
2) An explanation of why Scum!RC would have seen strategic gain in claiming a Vanilla result on the person he wanted to push on.

1. Because there's a difference between scumreading someone and knowing they're town - and also it allows other players to have your role backing for the read as opposed to your read alone, locking you in a position.

2. I don't think you expected me to do anything but push on Titus and/or accept the idea of lynching in the VTs, both of which, with you being scum, would work out fine for you. I think you came into today wanting to lynch a VT, and figured that due to my stance yesterday I'd be a supporter. I don't think you considered me an easy mislynch.

Thor link me to your last recent finished scum game and last recent finished town game

I do like to read people old games before sleeping

Click on my username, go to my topics - I basically post in nothing except games I'm in.
Then read whatever you want.

[Thor665]

Except that assuming I'm going to live, which if Postie/Titus are scum is confirmed true based on their methods of killing me all having been exhausted:

How do you figure that? I can see the argument for the Roleblock being gone, that still leaves them the Bus and the Strongman even if they figure Ranger is on you, so...?

So are yous aying that y

Obviously I'm saying that

If I don't consider you an easy mislynch, why is Scum!RC pushing on you right now?
I mean, if I'm scum: there's 3 viable VT mislynches. Why would I push on the one I claimed a result that makes you a suboptimal lynch and thus my push scummy?

Are we doing the pretend RC is an idiot as scum thing again? because that's old.

That would be a good question for townRC also though - so I think we can agree you're making a bad play, but I don't see why the bad play equates to you being town as opposed to you being scum in your own mind.

From my perspective, I think you freaked out a little when I sussed you, and now you're kind of trapped into doubling down on the move because you can't back off now without looking worse since you've defended the move all while not explaining away how all your evidence makes me a less likely scumspect. I also, to a lesser degree, kind of buy Cakez as your Goon in the VTs, and I don't think you're fond of that lynch at this stage either, and with Titus', FA's, and my own stated opinions on Cakez, I don't see any other VT lynch leaping into your hands, I think that's why you were trying to sell Titus on the 3dice lynch and the Cakez check (which, really was a "C'mon Titus, please ignore your reads, lynch the lurker slot and let me check the slot you think is Mafia when, from my perspective the reverse should be totally fine to do also, and make you happier")

I think your goal was to use your PR to suggest easing off Cakez, to push on 3dice figuring he was the easy lurk lynch, and to buy my happiness with the investigate figuring I'd stay the course in the VTs. You then hemmed and hawed for a while when, with a town read on FA and a townish/investigate read on me, you should have been quite happy to lynch either of the other two since your Postie/Ranger/Titus reads are too strong to need investigating.

Instead you sat there.
Until I voted you.
Then all your past words disappeared, and suddenly I needed rope asap.

That's why I think you're doing it, you were spooked and caught off guard and are now trapped in the play.

[Thor665]

Like, Thor's saying that Scum!RC wanted to get his vote so I claimed a potential VT result on him, despite the fact that my checking him inherently shows that he was my biggest scumread and I only didn't speedvote him because of the vanilla result, but immediately after he voted me I had a total panic attack and omgus voted him.

You actively were selling me as town, and your claimed issue with me was about my intentional avoidance of the Anarchy wagon - a stance you never supported when questioned.

No, I don't think I was particularly a strong scum read of yours.
Neither did you, per your own words at Day 4 start.

[Thor665]

@Thor, Tell me why Ranger's town to you.

Not sure he is particularly anymore.
Wasn't aware I was hard selling that concept either.

My mentions of Thor from my playing solo onward in the last two days.

I started to scumread him yesterday late in the day.
I had a major scumread on him today and 2607 alone should prove that he's pulling shit out of his ass here.

I note that your scumread is actually super soft, and also included false information that I corrected you on, and which you kind of admitted was wrong but didn't change much.
Also, your listed scumreads there seem to be based on a Thor/Anarchy team which I would expect to cause a change in your reads somewhat.
But I'm the one misrepresenting you? Ha!

The only thing that you could even say is that me saying that I 'could see you as town' makes you my townread? but no.

If you take the post in context I think it's saying exactly that.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p7915139
But it's assuredly not saying I'm a top scumread, I know that much.

[Thor665]

Hell I want a whole reads list from you.

As stands. RC/Ranger/probably Cakez.
This is not exactly hard to surmise.

And in answer to your other thought, the only way Thor+RC+Titus are all town is Cakez/FA/3dice.
That's it.

Yes, it's saying that I rethought it because statistically you were more likely be town than not based on your result.

Uh huh - I note you've dropped your 'this is too dumb for scumRC line also.
Thanks, it was silly to have to waste time justifying.

Cherry picking the ONE post that could possibly be construed as a townread doesn't work when I've said several times that I'm scumreading you.

I will admit, I cherry picked your most recent read on me that had nothing to do with me being scum paired with Anarchy, yes.
Don't really think that's as buzzwordy as you're trying to make it seem, but...ya got me!

Doesn't mean that I didn't think you were scum independently

You never really said that though, but I'll admit that maybe you did think that.
Doesn't justify the vote timing today though, does it?

[Thor665]

As stands. RC/Ranger/probably Cakez.
This is not exactly hard to surmise.

To clarify further, FA is the possible uncertain for me.
I think 3dice is town and the chosen mislynch of the day - I said that part, but don't want to waste time having you not track the logical inference of FA and then asking me for a reads list because my scum team is such a mystery.

[Thor665]

how is someone who nobody is pressuring on is a chosen mislynch of the day? ?!

If you don't see how lynchable 3dice is then nothing I say will show it to you in a way you understand. He just is.

[Thor665]

I think that RC was actively campainging that as his top lynch choice earlier today - so, if you think he is town, that shows that, yes, town players will do so. And if you think he's scum that shows that, yes, scum players thinking they want to look town will do so. So I'm not sure what you expect me to say here - yes, I think he is lynchable, I think he is very lynchable, I think he was a lynch target yesterday, I could make a valid scum case on him based off a concept that Titus is scum, I could make a semi-valid case on him based off the concept that Titus is town.

If you disagree with me just for the sake of arguing that you're town and 3dice might be the scum in the VTs - I don't care, because I'm not trying to lynch you today.
If you are arguing this point for any other reason - get to the point, because I'm already lost as to your reason for the discussion.