Open 635 - JK9++ (Game Over)

[Postie]

VOTE: TheShowMustGoOn

If we lynch this we're no longer obliged to keep the show going on.

[Postie]

I wouldn't be surprised if Postie's scum as well and they planned from the get go to fake a spreadsheet result to try and lynch me.

Woah there; I've made exactly one RVS post. Where is this random suspicion of me coming from?

What's all this about a spreadsheet now?

- Sonic/Radical Rat

I have a spreadsheet that can calculate whether RC is scum or not with a high degree of accuracy based on some secret tells I have on him.

[Postie]

Currently townreading RC so I'm willing to sheep him on Titus.

VOTE: Titus

[Postie]

I wouldn't be surprised if Postie's scum as well and they planned from the get go to fake a spreadsheet result to try and lynch me.

Woah there; I've made exactly one RVS post. Where is this random suspicion of me coming from?

I don't see why Titus would have made this play if not to hard push a lynch through on me because she would have known in general how I'd react.

Why does that make you suspicious of

me

though?

[Postie]

Because I felt like you claiming a spreadsheet guilty and pushing a lynch on me was impending and just relying on 'welp I was wrong!' tomorrow to get off the hook for it.

But I haven't claimed a spreadsheet guilty? I haven't even hinted at one?? I haven't even hinted at suspicion on you??? I'm townreading you????

How are you making this weird-ass connection like I can't follow you at all here

[Postie]

I figured that if Titus is pushing on me she probably expects her team to back her up which probably means they feel like they have an ace in the hole which probably means that you're scum with her trying to use your spreadsheet clout to score a mislynch.

This is one hell of a leap to make though. The fact that I haven't given you any content from which you could conceivably reach the conclusion that I was going to claim a scum result on you (or that I was even suspicious of you) but you seemed to expect me to anyway is making me want to throw out my townread so badly holy shit

[Postie]

RC/Titus waiting to sort until they stop fighting and I can actually analyze the non-"you always do this to me!!!" stuff.

You can't analyse the "you always do this to me!!!" stuff?

[Postie]

UNVOTE:

Need to think things through more and post thoughts but can't do it right now.

[Postie]

Postie why are you unvoting?

I'm not confident enough in my read on Titus to keep my vote there right now, and need to investigate some suspicions I have elsewhere. I'll explain it all tomorrow. Goodnight for now!

[Postie]

Woah there; I've made exactly one RVS post. Where is this random suspicion of me coming from?

Currently townreading RC so I'm willing to sheep him on Titus.

VOTE: Titus

I'm having trouble understanding how these thoughts can happen in succession

Especially since she never explains her RC townread and continues to question why he brought her up as a scum read

Her actions don't make it seem like she's townreading him

Hi. I'm catching up and stuff now and getting round to explaining my thought process in more detail. I guess I'll respond to this first.
I was townreading RC at the time that I made those posts, and so at that point the questions I was directing towards him were less suspicion and more just me trying to understand his thoughts, because I didn't want to end up fighting with him if we were both town. I then pushed the questioning further because I started to notice RC veering more towards his scum meta, and that in combination with his prediction that I'd scumread him gave me a really bad feeling. You will notice I unvoted Titus before heading off, and that was why.

[Postie]

So, here's what happened, like I predicted. The push on me in early game was planned.

Titus was meant to piss me off and pick a huge fight that Postie would use as justification to claim a scumread on me, and both would later use 'RC responds scummy to early pressure!' as an excuse later to justify why both ended up horribly misreading me. You can see where Postie gets weirded out and claims a scumread on Titus when I point out that's what probably happened, but then predictably switches around to trying to scumread me to go back with the plan when I stop focusing on them as a scumteam.

You had no reason to predict this. The explanation you tried to sell earlier was really reachy and not nearly adequate. Even now, I have stated suspicion, but not a scumread on you. But you're already assuming I have a scumread. I haven't even voted you yet.

Why are you assuming I will scumread you at every given opportunity?

This is not a town thought process. Yes, I am now scumreading you. And you saw it coming because you're scum and knew that I'd eventually know and push for your lynch, so you're setting shit up in advance.

VOTE: TheShowMustGoOn

@Spiffeh

- I'm writing up a full case now, so you'll have answers to your questions once I'm done with that.

[Postie]

Grab our scum PT from that game where we were scum together and RC was town Postie. We can let others judge how I play scum.

I don't know how useful that'll be for the reason RC has given, but just in case anyone finds it helpful: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=64507

[Postie]

Ugh so much back-and-forthing. I'd be responding to more stuff but I think it'd be more productive if I waited until I've written up my full case and then let people respond to that. I feel like a more structured discussion serves us better here and RC trying to get Titus/me lynched by just shouting really loudly isn't helping because things aren't set out in a straightforward way and like loads of other stuff gets dragged in and I'd just rather avoid it.

[Postie]

'Aight here we go.

I wouldn't be surprised if Postie's scum as well and they planned from the get go to fake a spreadsheet result to try and lynch me.

So this is the first time this is shit is brought up. Note I have made one RVS post up to this point and nothing else.

Woah there; I've made exactly one RVS post. Where is this random suspicion of me coming from?

I don't see why Titus would have made this play if not to hard push a lynch through on me because she would have known in general how I'd react.

Why does that make you suspicious of

me

though?

Because I felt like you claiming a spreadsheet guilty and pushing a lynch on me was impending and just relying on 'welp I was wrong!' tomorrow to get off the hook for it.

I then ask him about it, but he keeps giving vague answers that don't really give reasons for being suspicious of me specifically.

But I haven't claimed a spreadsheet guilty? I haven't even hinted at one?? I haven't even hinted at suspicion on you??? I'm townreading you????

How are you making this weird-ass connection like I can't follow you at all here

I figured that if Titus is pushing on me she probably expects her team to back her up which probably means they feel like they have an ace in the hole which probably means that you're scum with her trying to use your spreadsheet clout to score a mislynch.

I think it's more likely that scum is like Spiffeh or Sircakez trying to push these obnoxiously bad counterwagons.

Finally he stops saying wishy-washy things and answers the question I'm actually asking. But his explanation is so weak and reachy that I don't buy town!RC would honestly believe it.

since you are both clearly scum it makes the most sense.

Look at this wording. Apparently his theory makes the most sense because both me an Titus are "clearly scum", which suggests he has independent reasons for scumreading me outside of the shitty associatives he's drawn. Except that he doesn't.
I don't think this is just confbiased town because his whole argument is so bad that I fail to see how he himself could actually buy it.
I feel like he's making up for his lack of an adequate case for a Titus/Postie scumteam by exaggerating a ton of stuff, which I feel comes through in his other posts as well.

This is the general gist of why I think RC's scum here.

[Postie]

There's something else I want to highlight, but I'm less sure about it than the above.

As if I actually meant you were worse than Hitler.
It's a joke. You know, The Office? Toby? I'm not even close to mad rn. Don't try to spin that as rage.

I feel the "rage" he's directing at Titus is largely exaggerated. Unnecessarily so. His actual reasons for scumreading Titus, on the other hand, are reading as oddly genuine to me, and I think they actually make sense. But I feel like he's making a show of the whole thing.

My hypothesis: TSMGO and Titus are partners.

Yeah, so a comment about how I am worse than hitler is genuine rage? So what? No one is saying RC's rage isn't genuine. He's raging to make things look personal. Davesto and Pisskop raged in Zelda in much the same way.

@spiffeh, why do you think I am town?

@RC, Talk to UTL. K thanks bye. Maybe she can give you a sedative.

Something pings me as off about the way Titus talks to RC here too but I can't articulate it well but I figured I'd mention it anyway.

Anyway...

I think RC thought I'd push for his lynch hard enough to get him lynched this game, because, like he said, in the last two games where he was scum and I got a Mafia-indicative result on him using my handy-dandy spreadsheet, I let it slide for various reasons (mostly that I thought it was too early for the results to be accurate enough), resulting in him winning the game both times. I think he suspected that after those games, I wouldn't let a Mafia result go, so he planned to make some attempt to perhaps get me lynched first, and also distance from his partners.
This far into the game though, and assuming I'm correct about the above, I think it's possible he genuinely wants a Titus lynch because he would be able to use a scumflip from her to get

me

lynched.
I feel like he knows how bad and inadequate his argument for there being a connection between me and Titus is, but is pushing it anyway because he thinks he'll be able to sell it once Titus flips.

[Postie]

tl;dr

I think RC is scum who knew I'd push for his lynch. Further, I think he's using this as an opportunity to either distance from Titus, or try to push a lynch through on her in order to then score a free mislynch on me.

[Postie]

Spiffeh had a question and I've just realised I haven't really answered it above, so...

What about his posts during your questioning started to look like his scum meta?

I can't go into a lot on this because some of it I use in my spreadsheet, but what I can tell you is that I felt RC was being far more tunnely and aggressive than he should have been. He's aggressive as both alignments, sure, but here it feels a lot more unwarranted and overdone than usual.
I also thought, and still do, that he's being ridiculously "paranoid" of me here, in a way I don't see coming from town!RC.

[Postie]

And just so we're clear RC - I'm not scumreading you for a Mafia-indicative spreadsheet result, I'm scumreading you for predicting information in advance that you shouldn't know I'd have, and your general unwarranted suspicion of me, which I find looks strategic.

[Postie]

FWIW, I reckon Anarchy is prolly town, and I'm very happy with my current vote. Postie theory sounds like an Oceans 11-esque plot, but makes for interesting reading.

What are your problems with it? :/

[Postie]

This should be good.

[Postie]

I was phoneposting during that period, so that's why my content was so brief. I had stuff to say, but wanted to write it up properly.

[Postie]

Not answering questions? (besides strategically)
Vague answers?
Giving weird and reachy reasons?

I mean that's part of my case but not what it ultimately boils down to at all. Try again.

Do I feel like I'm playing for control here?

Yes.

Postie has a very solid understanding of the way that I operate as scum,

This is news to me.

There's a reason that I had her '92% convinced' that I was town at the end of our last game.
[...]
in my last she was 92% sure I was town.

Like you keep bringing this up but fail to mention that the "92%" thing was an initial guesstimate I threw out before looking into things further, at which point I started to doubt that figure a lot.

Postie!Town who was scumreading me would have a case built fundamentally on why RC is scum as opposed to town and not on what she's posted.

What does this mean?

What I didn't end up posting was that I have been preemptively working on a plan of attack for the next game where I was scum and Postie was town. I am positive that it will beat any spreadsheet, any reads, anything that she can throw at me and that she will townread me in it based on things I've learned about how she reads me.

Probably would be more effective if you didn't give me an advance warning but I'm not going to complain I guess.

Postie!Town just really doesn't make sense to me here. I'd be extremely disappointed in her play if she is.

I'm not falling for this shit again after Wordsneak 2 but 3/10 you tried.

[Postie]

explicitly avoiding the entire 'spreadsheet' deal. Like, if she has a spreadsheet with an 100% accuracy reading me and she knows that she can't read me why is she avoiding it.

Also, have you noticed that Postie has not brought the aforementioned spreadsheet up? That should be concerning you.

• My spreadsheet isn't 100% accurate.
  
• Most of the data I use is taken from games after they have ended, not during them, which means I have no idea how exactly things will work out in practice.
  
• Day 1 is far too early for me to put a lot of stock into a scum result.
  
• I don't have as many recent town games from you in my spreadsheet as I'd like right now.

This is why I'm avoiding using omgsprodshit as part of my case.

[Postie]

That's exactly what it boils down to.
Things that are scummy in general but don't make that much sense to apply to me as opposed to things that WOULD make sense to apply to me.

You being batshit paranoid of me based on weak associatives before I've even posted anything relevant is something that's just "scummy in general"? Okay.

In what way am I playing for control here?

Well, the reasons I've outlined in my case. Perhaps the Titus stuff is a shot in the dark, but I felt like it was worth mentioning in case we actually did end up lynching you and I got nightkilled.
Other than that, I just have an awful gut feeling you're trying to manipulate me here. And maybe you'd do that as town too, but it just makes me really uneasy and uncomfortable and is giving me Word Sneak 2 flashbacks.

Where'd the spreadsheet come from, then?
Where are all your secret tells and nights of analysis and all that if you don't know how I operate as scum?

It's just... statistics and patterns. I've already told you I'm still working on the theory behind it. I've far from figured you out.

What does this mean?

You know exactly what this means.

I don't. :/

I'm not falling for this shit again after Wordsneak 2 but 3/10 you tried.

In what way are you implying that this is similar to what I did in Wordsneak 2?
In WordSneak I was deliberately trying to make a similar thing happen to what happened in our newbie game.

I don't even see the comparison. Quote what you think this is similar to.

Well if you're scum then that bit I quoted is you trying to guilt trip me again. I'm not pushing it as an argument for you!scum, just noting that it's making me wary.

You claimed that it's like making me a compulsive friendly neighbour literally days ago.

Well yeah, because it appears to be infallible when it comes to town results. Scum results are a bit different.

[Postie]

Spoiler: Hi RC

I explained exactly why I came to that conclusion.
If you're not seeing it it's because you're choosing not to.

Okay let's break this down.

I figured that if Titus is pushing on me she probably expects her team to back her up which probably means they feel like they have an ace in the hole which probably means that you're scum with her trying to use your spreadsheet clout to score a mislynch.

Why do you think Titus expects her team to back her up on her push on you?
Why do you think that because she expects back up that that back up has to be "an ace in the hole"?
How did you get from the above to your final conclusion?

You have heavily alluded to having tons of tells that you've remained secretive about.
This doesn't feel like the impression I've got from the way you've talked about it. What's actually in this spreadsheet?

Not really sure how I'm supposed to answer that last question, but I'm always careful to word things in a way that doesn't give too much away about the spreadsheet's contents, so I'd take any "allusions" with a grain of salt.

You've basically written me out as confirmed scum. How is it 'making you wary'?
How is that not a huge backtrack?

Making me wary of falling into the same trap as last time, not making me wary about your alignment.

Out your result on me.

I thought I'd made about as clear as I could without outright saying it that I have a Mafia-indicative result on you but don't have an ounce of confidence in it at this point in time. It's the kind of annoying borderline result that makes me wish I could figure out an easy way to make my spreadsheet be able to deem a reading as "Inconclusive".

And she claims to have read virtually every scum game I've ever played.

I mean I've skimmed a ton whilst looking for specific things, but I can't say I've read many of them properly. I think you are vastly overestimating how much I know about your meta.

Spoiler'd because I know you're all tired of RCvPostie.

So basically yesterday I was spiraling into "help I can't trust any of my reads nothing is real", which I was trying to avoid because it gets in the way of me being able to read people. Having slept on it, I don't feel so oh-god-everything-is-on-fire anymore but I'm still doubting everything, especially my read on RC. I feel like I need to revisit my read on RC at a later date because I'm not really getting anywhere with it right now.

[Postie]

[snip]

I'm not doing this anymore. You're finding a way to twist every single thing I say into something that sounds scummy. You cannot possibly be this confbiased. A hell of a lot of the stuff you're scumreading me for I feel you should absolutely know better than to scumread me for.

When I woke up this morning I was so freaking close to doing what I did in Word Sneak and caving into the pressure you were putting on me so that my read on you did a 180 but I'm not letting that happen again. I have never been town with you in a game where you handled things like this. I don't buy that you could believe half the crap you're saying.

I'm going to go read other people now.

[Postie]

I could vote Titus too.

[Postie]

VOTE: Titus

[Postie]

I'm just gonna go ahead and ISO like every single person and post a bunch of questions.
While I'm doing that...

If I criticized CMM on activity it would be hypocritical, but he is worth a vote.
VOTE: ConManMick

Can you say a bit more about this? Why are you voting him?

[Postie]

Um, okay. Thanks.

[Postie]

@Ranger

- I really need to see some reasoning from you. This could be a good place to start...?

explaining why aero (and probably postie) are so high in this list will probably go a ways towards reducing needless you/tth friction and will at least get some substance besides /arms crossed and humphing

Eh, I definitely will, but right now feels a bit too early, sorry. Try in like 24-72 hours or so? By then the thread will have matured enough that it's more likely I'll be in a divulgatory mood. Shouldn't be hard to guess, though. Postie's obvtown, liked Aeronaut's posting.

I'm inclined to echo Aero's sentiments about me not really being obvtown here, but in the last game we played together I didn't think that either and you called me obvtown there too, so I'm not really too concerned on that front. I'd definitely like to hear about why you're townreading Aero so strongly though, even if I'm already townreading him.

[Postie]

@Titus

Ranger, Minsc and Boo is Titus, alt slip

Did not know that. In that case:
{Postie, Aeronaut, Heartless}
{Spiffeh, Witch_Hunter, davesaz, Anarchy Shard}
{SirCakez}
{Titus, TheShowMustGoOn}
{3dicerolling, ConManMick}

Yes, I know, I put Titus in the same tier as RC, I'm quite aware. The read there is basically "one scum, other either not or is-SK".

Both you and 3dr are totally scum either way, though.

Really, that looks fake. I quoted my alt slip in the next post. How could you not know that?

Tell me more about this. Why doesn't it look like an honest mistake? And what's the scum motivation in faking not realising that someone alt or hydraslipped?

[Postie]

About 1/3 of the way through ISOs. More tomorrow. Maybe a readslist.

[Postie]

The rest of his content is town though so :/

What's towny about it?

[Postie]

Catching up and stuff and hey uh Titus

(basically if you were to lynch scum I might reevaluate)

please in what world does this make sense

[Postie]

The doc claim makes her play make a lot more sense. I don't really want to lynch her rn.

Can you explain this more? Are you saying that you think that that early-game stuff was legitimate reaction testing and she got a townread out of it?

[Postie]

No, I think it was a legitimate push to sort me. I think she wanted to see if I was town so she could doc me.

Obviously she didn't get a townread out of it?

Oh, I think I understand what you're saying now. I thought you meant that she kept up her scumread on you because she was townreading you and wanted to doc you but didn't want scum to guess that she might do that and block her or whatever.

[Postie]

...no?

I'm saying that she pushed on me in the first place in a way she wouldn't normally because she wanted to sort my slot to know if I was town and suitable for being doc protected.

Yeah it's cool I'm in the loop now.

[Postie]

I'm not gonna lie those don't really look like crumbs to me.

[Postie]

Actually wait that last one does look a bit... ehh...

[Postie]

ignore my picture dude.

Yeah there's that. I think CMM just has a thing for guns in general.

[Postie]

doesn't really matter rn anyway. doc is a one-letter thing so if titus is faking it she (should) get caught out in a massclaim

Am I missing something?

[Postie]

Ohhh. I'm mostly following you.

[Postie]

Still ISOing people. Currently on CMM.

[Postie]

You're gonna hate me for this but I think I'm townreading CMM.

I get a gut town feel from his tone for some reason. And I actually kinda liked post 917 because his comment about TSMGO matches what kept happening to my read and his reads in general are very similar to mine so far too.

[Postie]

Working on it.

[Postie]

How the hell are people scumreading Spiffeh? He feels super duper town to me.

[Postie]

Spiffeh wagon is ew. Unvote pls.

I've worked my way down to SirCakez, so I'm nearly there with getting reads on everyone. Biggest scumread so far is Witch_Hunter; his ISO is so godawful and I can't understand why we that wagon never took off properly. Will probably vote him when I'm done.

[Postie]

You'll have one soon, probably within the hour. I'm nearly done.

[Postie]

Don't you dare lynch CMM.

[Postie]

Anarchy Shard

As others have pointed out, not reading the set-up is a lot more likely to come from town than scum, so post 53 is a good reason to townread these guys. It doesn't look faked to me, and neither does the follow-up in 62.
I'm getting very strong townvibes from their general tone and the questions they're asking, especially posts 208, 396, and 628, although I can't explain why very well. 628 in particular mirrored a lot of my thought process at that point in time.

Aeronaut

I can't explain this at all but just everything feels super town and genuine.

Heartless

Sheeping RC's thoughts on 107; it looks

extremely

genuine. The same goes for the way Anti's frustration progresses in the posts that follow.
Unfortunately, I don't really know how to read them beyond that, but nothing's pinging me, they're bringing up decent points, and their content looks pretty good all round.

Spiffeh

Kinda agree with RC about the exclamation mark in post 117 looking off.
Post 144 feels like annoyed/trollish town though, and the follow up in 147 feels genuine.
Gut townfeels from posts 152, 187, 415... actually a bunch of posts and I'm too lazy to list them all.
I like post 764 because, while I'm townreading Ranger, she has sort-of slipped under the radar and people are calling her town without really much reasoning or justification, so I like that Spiffeh isn't taking her alignment for granted; with how lazy Spiffeh's posting has been, I'd expect scum!Spiffeh to just roll with the thread consensus (unless my reads are horribly wrong and Ranger and Spiffeh are scumbuds, in which case it could be lazy distancing).

Titus

I had a shitton of stuff here about how she was pressuring RC and how I didn't like it and thought all her reasoning was bad, but I can buy the doc thing, especially since she crumbed it in advance.

3dicerolling

Nothing's pinging me, and his tone feels town but I can't pinpoint why. 912 seems town because I don't think scum!3dice would be so forthcoming with information like that if he'd found it while PR hunting.
I like 973 a lot but I don't know why.
On the other hand, I really hate 974 because 3dice basically scumreads Spiffeh for joke posts. I can't tell if he's trying to twist non-scummy things into sounding scummy or if he just doesn't understand they're jokes though.
Overall townlean.

Ranger

Not enough explaining for me to be able to get a decent read.
I disliked post 241 originally, because I couldn't understand why Ranger chose to comment on one random read from Spiffeh in the way she did, but 374 suggests it's a reference to something that happened in the past, so that's alright.
I'm provisionally putting Ranger down as a townlean, because I feel like some of her thoughts and progressions in thought feel natural and genuine, although that's mainly just a gut feel I'm getting.

ConManMick

His content isn't great, but I get a gut town feel from his tone for some reason.
Liked his comment about TSMGO in post 917 because my read kept doing that too. His reads in general aren't awful either.
Sorry, I know I haven't explained myself very well here but he just feels like lynchbait.

davesaz

There's barely anything in his ISO at all. While he asks some questions, he fails to follow up on a lot of them.
I don't like how his vote on ConManMick in post 649 seems to come out of the blue, with davesaz never having interacted with or mentioned CMM before.
I'm not sure if davesaz is scummy or just bad town though. I think I'm leaning slightly towards bad town because of post 651. Really need to see more from him.

SirCakez

So much fluff and IIoA wow.
All his votes feel super lazy but I don't know how alignment indicative that is.
... That's all I got.
Can someone tell me if this is how he usually plays?

Witch_Hunter

Hate the whole "well I was criticising that logic because it doesn't make them CONFIRMED town" thing in post 168 (basically what Anarchy said in 208). 311 is awful too for similar reasons that I can't quite articulate.
The "don't want to rush his wagon" thing in 554 when CMM had two votes is WTF, but I'm not sure how alignment indicative it is unless CMM is scum or something.
The "why are you townreading me don't townread me" thing in 557 is awful, and the kind of line of questioning I wouldn't really expect newbtown with content and reasoning this bad to go down, but that I can see scum trying to push because they think encouraging people not to townread them seems like something scum wouldn't do.
The replace-out is lolbad as well.

[Postie]

Now I'm just left with the

wonderful

task of trying to read TSMGO.
I suppose you can end the day and let me do it overnight if you're really impatient for a lynch but if I get shot you're on your own.

Also I'd like to metadive CMM and Cakez if possible.

Best guess for scumteam right now: TSMGO / SirCakez / Witch_Hunter

[Postie]

Oh yeah, and I guess I'll

VOTE: SirCakez

If it's possible to get a Witch_Hunter wagon going though I'll be super happy.

[Postie]

Does anyone know if the scum have daytalk?

[Postie]

Huh. I just skimmed a past game of CMM's and he was engaging a lot more than he's doing here. Still not sold on him being scum, but I guess I wouldn't mind horribly if he gets lynched.

[Postie]

Which word sneak was this? I don't remember you doing that at all, tbh.

Word Sneak 2. RC wasn't in the first one.

[Postie]

Can we not vote CMM today?

I don't like the people pushing or the way they're pushing and I feel like he's going to flip town.

These two posts are sketch as fuck, though. RC would be a great place to look if con is scum.

Dammit Aero I townread you and then you post stupid things like this.

Also I missed those posts by TSMGO somehow. It's interesting to see that RC ended up coming to the same conclusion as I did about CMM, even down to feeling uncomfortable about how the wagon on him was forming, which I originally mentioned in my readslist but then took out later because I hadn't read over what was happening properly and it was just a funny feeling I had. I feel like slight townpoints are in order.

[Postie]

although in retrospect, i guess i've Witnessed RC bus plenty of times before, so I guess it doesn't make a lot of sense for scum-him to be weird about mick, if they were buddies.

Plus, regardless of whether they're buddies or not, if RC makes comments like that it becomes more difficult for him to push a lynch through on CMM later without it looking weird. Idk, it's just that since there's legitimately no real case for town!CMM and most people seem to be scumreading him, I'd expect scum!RC to want CMM mislynched at some point and plan accordingly.
If CMM is town, RC could let town mislynch CMM while being opposed to the lynch, but doing it half-heartedly like that could make it look like he already knows CMM will flip town and draw suspicion onto him.

... I guess I'm starting to see what RC meant by "not playing for control".

[Postie]

davesaz / SirCakez / Witch_Hunter ?

[Postie]

* skeptical face *

[Postie]

I'd be scumreading Titus but Anti said something about her claim not holding up if there's a massclaim so *shrug*.

[Postie]

TSMGO, talk to me about your Spiffeh scumread. idgi.

[Postie]

Postie who is scum?

Team's probably somewhere in Titus / davesaz / SirCakez / Witch_Hunter. I need to reread and review 3dice though.

[Postie]

Don't commit to any reads on my slot for a little while please.

What?

[Postie]

Why the hell would we lynch 3dice when Witch_Hunter's slot is still alive?

VOTE: Rhaegar

[Postie]

davesaz is being so brazenly anti-town now that I'm moving him to my townpile. If he's usually this ballsy as scum though, let me know and I can put him back in null. Might dig up some of his past scumgames later and investigate myself.

I've read 3dice's more recent stuff again and I think I'm going to maintain my townlean.

TSMGO, can you tell me why you're townreading Ranger and SirCakez?

i could vote Rhaegar today if Sonic won't agree w me on 3dice.

Please.

[Postie]

TSMGO, can you tell me why you're townreading Ranger and SirCakez?

Also Titus.

[Postie]

For the record: Postie's kinda...dropping in my list right now. The posts like 1309 just...don't give the strong town vibe I'd expect from her.

Witch_Hunter/Rhaegar is the only scumread I'm really sure on. Hell no am I letting that slot live through today.

[Postie]

Actually it's 279/67
so I'm confirmed scum sadly.

If this is what I think it is then dw, I'm still townreading you.

[Postie]

Yeah, I think it's what I think it is. Although I can't figure out where you got any of the numbers from except for the 11.

[Postie]

Damn, everyone's quiet.

[Postie]

I think he's due for a prod.

As of an hour ago, yes.

Prodding Rhaegar

[Postie]

I wouldn't be opposed to lynching Witch_Hunter/Rhaegar without waiting for a replacement, tbh. I don't think that slot can be redeemed at this point.

[Postie]

How does that make Titus scum, davesaz?

[Postie]

I'd be happy to talk, but nobody seems willing to engage in real conversation about my scumread. And yes, it is a real scumread.

Your case is that Titus wasn't engaging with enough people, right? If so, why do you find that scummy?

[Postie]

Why does out of character equal scummy?

[Postie]

I'd still be down to flash-lynch Rhaegar.

[Postie]

Why are there 4 votes on a player who is being replaced?

Because no replacement can change the fact that Witch_Hunter's ISO is an irredeemable pile of garbage.

[Postie]

Like, even if you are voting me, that's still more productive in pushing me to actually do something rather than having a placeholder on a player that your read could change entirely on.

It's not a placeholder vote. I don't see my read changing.

[Postie]

If you want reasons for why your slot is being scumread, this just about covers mine:

Witch_Hunter

Hate the whole "well I was criticising that logic because it doesn't make them CONFIRMED town" thing in post 168 (basically what Anarchy said in 208). 311 is awful too for similar reasons that I can't quite articulate.
The "don't want to rush his wagon" thing in 554 when CMM had two votes is WTF, but I'm not sure how alignment indicative it is unless CMM is scum or something.
The "why are you townreading me don't townread me" thing in 557 is awful, and the kind of line of questioning I wouldn't really expect newbtown with content and reasoning this bad to go down, but that I can see scum trying to push because they think encouraging people not to townread them seems like something scum wouldn't do.
The replace-out is lolbad as well.

[Postie]

1. Well, firstly, I'd say I agree with Witchhunter here, secondly I'd note that Anarchy hasn't flipped - so I don't understand how it's an issue. Has that slot been confirmed as town yet? Because if it hasn't, there is very much no case here, as, if the slot is scum, then what Witchhunter did is a valid town tell as opposed to a scumtell.

I think you're missing the point. Witch_Hunter was pushing against a reason someone gave for townreading Anarachy Shard by saying that it didn't make AS

confirmed

town. It's just a really shitty discredit that doesn't make sense when you're starting from a neutral standpoint on someone's alignment.

2. How many games of town freaking out about non scary wagons do I need to provide to convince you this point is playstyle based and not alignment based?
To be honest, I don't even understand how it's alignment based - like, say I'm scum, and a wagon was forming. Why would I be more likely to say 'don't rush!' as scum? I don't get it. If CMM had flipped scum I'd kind of get it, but as stands it reads like a null o rtown tell to me, not a scum one. Clarify?

I

did

say that I wasn't sure whether this actually said anything about Witch_Hunter's alignment. I just thought it looked weird so I made a note of it.

4. How is this a scumtell? For starters, strategic replacement is against site rules - so, by logic, if it was strategic then either Witchhunter should have been reported by the mod and banned...or the replace is not strategic. The mod has more info than you on the reality of a potential strategic replace and...oh, look, WH hasn't been game banned, has he? In fact, let's actually research this question; his last post on site was 13 days ago in this game.

So...what, your theory is that he is scum, replaced out strategically, and is avoiding the entire site (currently for 13 days and counting) just to help out his future scum replacees?



Tell me more about how this looked "strategic" to you? Because you clearly did zero actual scumhunting on the idea, you just threw around a buzzword (which is also a buzzword, but work with me here).

I like how the word strategic is in quotation marks as if I used it.
I don't think it was a strategic replace out. I think Witch_Hunter got overwhelmed and replaced out because he couldn't get into the game, and I think the reason that happened likely had something to do with him buckling under the pressure of being scum and not doing a very good job of it.

[Postie]

Thor, if you want to convince me you're town, the best way to do that is to read the game and give me your reads. Trying to defend your predecessor's actions isn't going to get you very far.

[Postie]

Also, again, even if we want to presume it's a scumtell...what's the scumtell exactly? Sure, I'll agree thinking that someone was implying conftown looks weird, but how is it scummy? Is it just generally attacking a townread? SirCakez attacked the read also (incorrectly reading it, but attacking it nonetheless) is that a scumtell on him? If it isn't, why does it apply to me and not him? If it is, how do both attacks being over different things equate to both being scumtells?

Witch_Hunter was pushing against a reason someone gave for townreading Anarachy Shard by saying that it didn't make AS

confirmed

town. It's just a really shitty discredit that doesn't make sense when you're starting from a neutral standpoint on someone's alignment.

[Postie]

Why could it not be him as town, buckling under pressure, and not being very good at it?
Because he clearly wanted to leave site (for whatever reason) so I can agree with you that the reason might be that he found the pressure of the game unpleasant. Why does that make him scum though? I don't get that part of your conclusion.

It's partly the way it happened.
Get called out on being scummy -> posts fizzle out -> PM the mod to be replaced
It feels sneaky.

[Postie]

Thor's looking pretty darn good if you ask me,

How???

[Postie]

three very long, content-filled posts with logic difficult to find fault in

I strongly disagree on that last bit, but putting that aside for a moment, how is this towny?

He's diving head first into the game and doing a good job of it

What makes you say he's doing a good job?

[Postie]

Why are you townreading Thor?

[Postie]

I get that it looks underhanded on some level

That is exactly the problem.

but what did they accomplish by this sneaky replace fest?

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with this question. It's not like I think Witch_Hunter replaced out to further his win con; I just think he was uncomfortable.

I don't get why a town player in WH's slot would have loved the game and stayed

That's not what I said.

I think it's possible they just couldn't get into the game because of the speed at which it was moving or whatever else and decided to replace out for that reason, and those things probably played a factor regardless of their alignment, but I think that the way they replaced out makes them more likely to be scum.
I think a townie would have been more likely to voice their frustration at the game before replacing out. The way he just kind-of lurked and then PM'd the mod to replace out feels like he was trying to stay out of the spotlight.

[Postie]

WH may be scum but I'm pretty damn sure Rhaegar didn't site flake because of his alignment in this game.

My issue is with WH's replace out, not Rhaegar's.

[Postie]

Blind sheeping the dead.

hawhat

[Postie]

@Postie - Heartless is the dead, if that's the confusion.

I was scumreading your slot before Heartless died.

[Postie]

@Postie - Heartless is the dead, if that's the confusion.

I was scumreading your slot before Heartless died.

Okay?
Don't think that has anything to do with the price of tea in China, but good to know I suppose.

What? So how am I blind sheeping the dead?

3dice reads please everyone.

Null.

@3dice

- Can you throw me some past scum games?

[Postie]

How does 3dice/Davesaz/Anarchy sound to everyone?

I think davesaz is town, Anarchy probably too but I'll have to reread. :/

[Postie]

You are scumz currently because Witch_Hunter had dodgy sucmhunting, didn't vote someone to avoid "rushing their wagon", bad reaction to being townread. Rhaegar just didn't do anything while in your slot.

What do you think of my rebuttal's to Postie, who offered up these same points?
I dismissed them all basically out of hand.

3. I personally think this is just a newb tell, as I think they do this more than anyone - but if in your mind it's a scumtell at least there's the concept of a tell here, so I don't really have an issue with it at face value like the rest of your case. I don't agree it's a tell myself, but I see where you're coming from here.

^ You're not really countering anything here.

Also, again, even if we want to presume it's a scumtell...what's the scumtell exactly? Sure, I'll agree thinking that someone was implying conftown looks weird, but how is it scummy? Is it just generally attacking a townread? SirCakez attacked the read also (incorrectly reading it, but attacking it nonetheless) is that a scumtell on him? If it isn't, why does it apply to me and not him? If it is, how do both attacks being over different things equate to both being scumtells?

Witch_Hunter was pushing against a reason someone gave for townreading Anarachy Shard by saying that it didn't make AS

confirmed

town. It's just a really shitty discredit that doesn't make sense when you're starting from a neutral standpoint on someone's alignment.

^ This still exists.

[Postie]

@Thor, your slot claimed Doctor. :-p

Did you claim backup? Because otherwise whatever my slot claimed I don't see the connection.

Ok I can lynch Thor now.

Oh wow I missed this.

Thor, are you... unclaiming doctor?

[Postie]

@Thor, your slot claimed Doctor. :-p

Huh?

You'd know this if you weren't lurking through the first half of the game.

[Postie]

It's a really short ISO, and I have no difficulty reading.

Are you looking at the correct ISO? Witch_Hunter was the one who claimed it.

[Postie]

I think I'm warming to the idea of a 3dice wagon.
Someone make a case so I can feel better about it pls.

[Postie]

And if her claim is so unbelievable, please share why it is because I have no clue why you keep pushing that she isn't Doctor.

I could be mistaken, but this looks suspiciously like rolefishing.

[Postie]

Oh. Hi. Are you replacing Spiffeh?

[Postie]

Oh. Hi. Are you replacing Spiffeh?

ACTIVITY:

Expedience

replaces Spiffeh

Oh. Not sure how I missed that.

And if her claim is so unbelievable, please share why it is because I have no clue why you keep pushing that she isn't Doctor.

I could be mistaken, but this looks suspiciously like rolefishing.

Okay?

What's that supposed to mean?

[Postie]

I don't really know how you expect me to respond to that except by saying you are wrong.

Then why didn't you just say that outright? :/

[Postie]

For the record, I still think davesaz is town. I think the way he reacted to that reaction test thing Titus pulled was bad, but not scummy.

My lynchpool is Thor/3dice.

[Postie]

Titus's 180 on you and terrible push from the "reaction test" is blatant scum.

Why?

[Postie]

My understanding was that Titus' main problem with Thor was that he didn't deny the doctor claim straight away.

[Postie]

I think I'm warming to the idea of a 3dice wagon.
Someone make a case so I can feel better about it pls.

What about the Thor665 tunnel and him doing something which I would expect anyone scumreading him to confbias into more evidence against him?

I do think him not pointing out he's not a doctor straight away is a bit sus, although perhaps not as much as Titus is making it out to be. He's still my top scumread. 3dice is my compromise lynch.

I think there is a good chance you are avoiding this topic because you know that Thor665 is town.

Yeah, because this is what a scum thought process looks like: "I'm going to pretend to scumread Thor and make some points against him and... wait, he's town though. Whelp, I guess I'd better stop."

[Postie]

Are you trying to ask that question in such a way that I don't immediately say "no" so you can then point out my hypocrisy?

[Postie]

Oh my gawd, you stopped and thought "what is going on here?" as opposed to "I didn't claim Doc, I must immediately decry this person!"

Shocking, really.

I just wanted to see a "town" reaction to the question.

So yes, yes you were trying to set up a situation in which you could make a shitty comparison to the situation with you and Titus.
The difference is you clearly weren't serious here, whereas you had no reason to doubt Titus was serious about seeing one of your predecessor's claim doctor. The situations aren't comparable.
Nice try though.

[Postie]

If you knew it was fake why wouldn't you just say you weren't the doctor and/or call bullshit?

Perhaps I should rephrase - Titus was expecting a serious answer; you weren't.

[Postie]

If you knew it was fake why wouldn't you just say you weren't the doctor and/or call bullshit?

Claiming I was or wasn't the Doctor would be a role reveal.
A very brief glance over my play would show you that I don't support random role info granting under any circumstances (I have had multiple L-1 situations where I've refused to claim unless someone states hammer).
I have never done that.
I never will.
Because it's bad play.

So you didn't deny that you were the doctor because you don't like giving away role-related information?

[Postie]

Thor, are you... unclaiming doctor?

I'm pretty sure I'm not making any claim or unclaim in that post - but...sure?

What changed your mind?

[Postie]

Are you trying to misrep me, or did you think the second line had no bearing to the first?

I'm not following.

[Postie]

You are now deciding that me going "...sure?" is a verification of an unclaim.

If you're saying it wasn't, then... what was it?

[Postie]

You are now deciding that me going "...sure?" is a verification of an unclaim.

If you're saying it wasn't, then... what was it?

If you're saying it's a confirmation - you run with that.

Okay but was it or was it not a "verification of an unclaim" and if not, what were you saying?

[Postie]

Like wow that was the worst possible way you could have answered my question.

[Postie]

If Titus is scum her claim won't hold up in a massclaim. We're not lynching her today.

[Postie]

Massclaim doesn't help yet, we have no confirmed roles. It may be useful later.

I'm not saying we should massclaim now, but when we do, we'll know if Titus is telling the truth. So why lynch her before then?

I'm willing to discuss lynching someone else, on the off chance that my scumread is wrong. Time is short.

Vote Thor.

[Postie]

I really want Thor today but I'm willing to compromise on dave if it'll stop the terrible Titus wagon from going through

VOTE: davesaz

[Postie]

A wagon is forming on Titus despite the fact she's a claimed doctor who will get caught out in massclaim if she isn't. The rest of us who aren't scum or insane are trying to agree on a counterwagon.

[Postie]

I didn't mean it that strongly.
Sorry Ranger.

[Postie]

I'd revote Thor but I don't think there's enough support for a lynch there. Right now it looks like we can't get more than 3 votes on him.

[Postie]

Is Aero due for another prod yet?

[Postie]

Everyone who is okay with voting Titus has voted Titus. That lynch isn't going to go through.
Move your vote somewhere where it'll have an impact and not further the chances of a No Lynch.

[Postie]

Mostly that her claim won't hold up in the event of a massclaim so lynching her now is a bad idea.
I trust RC's read on her though as well.

[Postie]

If RC won't lynch her then I won't either.

[Postie]

I will have to reread and check out interactions and stuff. Adjust my reads accordingly. Making time to do that now if possible but I'll probably end up doing it overnight.
And if today ends in a No Lynch I'm not sure how things are going to work out tomorrow. Hnrgrhsfhkjsd. Don't really know where to go from here.

I'm going to be around at deadline still so if another wagon springs up and I need to hammer it I will as long as it's on anyone who isn't me, RC, Titus, Anarchy, Aero, or Expedience. Our deadline is in just under two hours so we need to start hurrying things up and Aero needs to get his butt in here and put a vote down.

[Postie]

My lynchpool is still Thor/3dice.

VOTE: Thor665

[Postie]

There's other, more plausible, theories but the theory you chose clearly shows you expected a dead Ranger and didn't actually think through the options.

That sounds like a good point. I can maybe do Cakez.

RC, when you get in here, please tell me how sure you are of your Cakez read.

[Postie]

Actually since Cakez was already tunneling Titus, jumping to the no kill conclusion might not be that scummy. Meh.

[Postie]

If we're massclaiming I want to go

after

RC.

[Postie]

Also, what are the benefits of a massclaim right now?

[Postie]

If we're massclaiming I want to go

after

RC.

Oh yeah and I steganographed my role earlier in the thread, so I can prove I'm not making it up on the spot.

[Postie]

</3

But thanks!
Who's claiming now?

[Postie]

If no one's suggesting a claim order I'll do it:

SirCakez -> Thor665 -> 3dicerolling -> Expedience -> Aeronaut -> Ranger -> The Show Must Go On -> Postie

[Postie]

Fair enough.

[Postie]

Also Postie should be much further up as well.

If we're massclaiming I want to go

after

RC.

Oh yeah and I steganographed my role earlier in the thread, so I can prove I'm not making it up on the spot.

[Postie]

I'm not claiming until RC has claimed.

[Postie]

In fact to explicitly say this before Ranger claims.

Postie, do you or do you not claim Jailkeeper?

I claim after you. >:U

[Postie]

That's fine with me.

[Postie]

Thor's claiming now, right?

[Postie]

Eh I like that slot. What's wrong with lynching the Thor/Witch Hunter slot?

Scum won't let us wagon them.

[Postie]

Ranger, you're next in the claim chain.

[Postie]

Wait no Thor hasn't claimed yet.

P-edit: yes.

[Postie]

I really hate the way Thor has evaded claiming so far actually.

[Postie]

You're next in the claim order, and if you

must

have someone popcorn you, Expe is likely going to anyway.
Stop being difficult and just claim already.

[Postie]

It started because RC apparently has relevant results and wanted to out them.

Then why doesn't he? Unless these results are going to change based on claims (read: are fake), I still see little point in waiting.

If he has an incriminating result and scum claim after him they can fakeclaim something that gives them an excuse (e.g. "You tracked me to that kill because I'm a vig!").

[Postie]

I still think it's being pushed mainly by scum. (Namely, Titus and Postie.)

Neither me nor Titus suggested the massclaim. And I

definitely

didn't push for it; all I pushed for was that if we

were

massclaiming, we were gonna do it in an order that made sense.

[Postie]

Aero's due for another prod in about 2 hours.

[Postie]

Aeronaut

****

If this would be their third prod during the game, I will instead seek a replacement.

[Postie]

I've been willing to overlook Aero's lack of content so far because I know it can be tricky to balance Mafia with exams and I'm townreading him, but if someone can't keep up with a game they really shouldn't be in it.

@mod

- Is there a reason Aero hasn't been force-replaced yet?

Mainly the problems we've had getting other replacements in this game. Hard to find people willing to replace into a 85 page game.

[Postie]

Congrats, Aero.

Ranger, you're up next.

[Postie]

Oh wait, I forgot 3dice existed as well. He needs a prod and he needs to claim.

[Postie]

Oh wait, I forgot 3dice existed as well. He needs a prod and he needs to claim.

But it'd be good if you could claim before both me and RC.

[Postie]

Yo

Claim pls.

[Postie]

*grumble grumble* >.>

If Aero ends up being replaced though, please just claim.

[Postie]

I don't know if people are going to be on board with this, but it's worth a shot if it speeds things up.

PopVote: 3dice

Let's see if peer pressure does the trick.

[Postie]

I WILL say that TheShowMustGoOn is now 100% town

Sounds more like she has an investigative role? N1 results please if that's true.

[Postie]

confirmed JOAT

[Postie]

Any reason my steganography is no longer sufficient? I mean I literally have my role down by name, as well as my night 1 target and/or results.

[Postie]

There won't be any uncertainty.

[Postie]

I doubt you'll find it. I'm kind-of meticulous about these things.

[Postie]

At this point I'm willing to go before you as long as Ranger claims before

me

. I'm reasonably confident you're town, but I can't say the same for Ranger and I may well have information that conflicts with whatever she's going to claim.

[Postie]

Well that JOAT thing on the last page did look a bit like a scumslip, tbf.

[Postie]

Hi Frozen!

[Postie]

By the way, FA you have popcorn power to choose the next claim.

Since 3dice is being replaced pick Ranger pls, FA. Thanks.

[Postie]

3dice, I can't speak for the mod, but the rule is that you're replaced on the third prod. You have three prods.

[Postie]

If we have 3dice go next we might have to wait for his replacement though.

[Postie]

Okay, that checks out.

I'm the Jailkeeper. I jailkept Ranger night 1 and TSMGO night 2.

I w

i

ll have to reread and check out interactions and stuff. Ad

j

ust my reads accordingly. Ma

k

ing time to do that now if possible but I'll probably end up doing it overnight.
An

d

if today ends in a No Lynch I'm not sure how things are going to work out tomorrow. Hn

r

grhsfhkjsd. Do

n

't really know where to go from here.

I'm

g

oing to be around at deadline still so if another wagon springs up and I need to hammer it I will as long as it's on anyone who isn't me, RC, Titus, Anarchy, Aero, or Expedience. Ou

r

deadline is in just under two hours so we need to start hurrying things up and Aero needs to get his butt in here and put a vote down.

(3rd letter of every sentence)

[Postie]

How plausible is two doctors?

[Postie]

???

[Postie]

If I'm scum, which one of Titus/Ranger is lying?

[Postie]

I find it so difficult to believe that Postie wouldn't have targeted me N1.

Why?

[Postie]

I didn't think you'd be nightkilled. I figured scum would try and shoot Heartless or Anarchy because they seemed obvtown, and so I thought Titus would probably cover one of those. So I went with one of my weaker townreads. I also had paranoia that Ranger could be a Serial Killer for some reason, probably because I trusted your townread on her but didn't like her reads.

[Postie]

What if scum have a JOAT?

[Postie]

My biggest problem with Anarchy's reaction is that they said we had a "confirmed" JOAT. :/

[Postie]

[Postie]

Thanks, 3dice.

[Postie]

Thor is still scum. The remaining scum are in Cakez/Anarchy/3dice, probably Cakez/Anarchy.

[Postie]

What's your read on Cakez?

[Postie]

For RC not to get a result, there must be a roleblocker with no gun shot.

I jailkept Ranger night 1 and TSMGO night 2.

[Postie]

I'll post one last time just so I don't waste more of your time waiting.

I'm VT.

[Postie]

Can we do Thor please? He feels like obvscum to me and the slot should have been lynched D1.

VOTE: Thor665

[Postie]

I don't like FA but I was townreading Spiffeh pretty hard so I'd rather not go there.

[Postie]

Oh yeah. I was townreading him too though.

[Postie]

we know there is a scum Joat

[Postie]

Oh right. Yeah.

[Postie]

I wish lol.

[Postie]

VOTE: Anarchy Shard

If Thor doesn't die after this I'm going to be mad though.

[Postie]

and scum could have planned to claim such thing in nights. Crumbs like this mean nothing especially when you can't figure it out without she pointing it out.

If I were a JOAT using a Strongman kill who wanted to fakeclaim Jailkeeper in this way I would have to either know in advance somehow that Ranger was a doctor who targeted my kill target, or leave crumb for every possible jailkeep target I could have.

No.

[Postie]

w8 that crumb was during day 2 or day 3 ?

Day 2.

[Postie]

Unless you just wanted to claim Jailkeeper because you'd seen Ranger's softing.

I guess. I'd probably still have to know that she targeted my kill target to make me want to actually fakeclaim Jailkeeper though.

[Postie]

I need to get into the habit of crumbing earlier. Damn my procrastination.

[Postie]

Oh yeah.

[Postie]

I didn't. Not just now, anyway.

[Postie]

I have absolutely awful memory.

[Postie]

Titus can easily be scum with postie , expe and TSMGO.

Scum with all of three of us at the same time?

[Postie]

I would suggest the following;
Rolecop - Titus (though, honestly, we could make this Postie, I suppose).
Ranger protects rolecop.
Titus protects Ranger.

Jailkeeper targets a calimed VT.
Tracker targets whomever he wishes.

That's more or less what RC suggested.

[Postie]

I townread all three of the lynches we've had so far and voted for two of them. I'm doing something wrong somewhere. :/
Don't really know what to do now.

Oh yeah and I jailkept Cakez last night.

[Postie]

Thor/Cakez I think are definitely scum. Not sure which one of 3dice/FA is the third.

[Postie]

I'm not sure I believe scum!RC would fake a rolecop result on Thor before I got in here when there was a good chance Thor could have been my jailkeep target, being my top scumread and all.