Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[VP Baltar]

I'm basically not reading a lot from the last few pages.

Lotus, tell me more about why you think andres was taking advantage of our fight instead of just expressing his genuine opinion?

[VP Baltar]

it’s been a super busy week for me.

To quote Datisi, this is a mood.

[VP Baltar]

Slight Lean Town
{Harumi Ayasato/maxwell

You didn't really explain this read.

[VP Baltar]

Just saying, if everyone wants a quick compromise wagon, there is no reason to keep Dunn around.

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: dunn

[VP Baltar]

Either Elements is just scum or one or two scum are already on Elements right?

I fail to see why it is so hard to get wagons going

I think town is a little divided on their poes, and some scum are probably playing just town enough for the compromises to feel icky.

For example, I just could not get into my elements vote, even though I don't really see a reason not too. I'm not getting like strong scum vibes there either. I'd be willing to put my vote there again to end this day, but how they flip I don't have confidence in.

[VP Baltar]

Either Elements is just scum or one or two scum are already on Elements right?

I fail to see why it is so hard to get wagons going

I think town is a little divided on their poes, and some scum are probably playing just town enough for the compromises to feel icky.

For example, I just could not get into my elements vote, even though I don't really see a reason not too. I'm not getting like strong scum vibes there either. I'd be willing to put my vote there again to end this day, but how they flip I don't have confidence in.

Yeah, town is certainly divided. My thinking is moreso why aren't scum pushing over elements.

It's a fair point.

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Italiano

[VP Baltar]

out of courtesy, and in recognition of a formal warning received, I'm issuing a formal apology to anybody who has been offended by me during this game.

Thank you for working to make the game less toxic.

Mod: I think lotus voted before me. Just for accuracy in wagon position.

<<Fixed.>>

[VP Baltar]

@Elements @BM might as well just vote me. We can end this day and you guys can catch the scum that’s on my wagon.

Why those two specifically?

[VP Baltar]

Counterpoint, andres, is I think resolving Italiano at least gives us some information given most people have stated some kinds of thoughts there.

Pedit: yeah, later you talked about maxwell's reads and your own. I just run and gun on posts without reading ahead a lot of the time.

[VP Baltar]

I will say though, whenever I see that varying camps are looking to compromise somewhere, I very rarely get the feeling it’s the right choice. I would be more aggressive in defending Italiano if I was surer that they’re Town.

Yeah, I definitely agree. I'm not confident at all in this being the right choice, but if I'm going to compromise, at least I'm voting with my top town read.

I think I could make a strong argument that a Dunn yeet is less of a risk, but we also don't gain much info if he does happen to flip town.

[VP Baltar]

i don't remember fighting with Baltar so what's this?

Yeah, I had no clue what this is referring to either. I assume some misremembering.

[VP Baltar]

last minute wagons can materialize and hit scum idm datisi voting his heart

I have yet to see a CFD in this forum lead to Scum I have to say. But there’s always room for a surprise.

Cfd?

[VP Baltar]

Yeah if you are talking last minute wagons hitting scum, that game was like a textbook example of that play working

Pedit - got you.

[VP Baltar]

I feel pretty good about most of the active players in this game

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, I definitely agree. I'm not confident at all in this being the right choice, but if I'm going to compromise, at least I'm voting with my top town read.

You’re also voting with your top Scum Read if I don’t have it wrong. Right?

No, dunn was on elements last I checked. I was there for a hot second, but didn't feel good about it. I'm sheeping Datisi now.

[VP Baltar]

Benefits of a Dunn wagon: he has contributed nothing despite me trying to prompt interaction from him several times. He may be following the thread and just not posting. When he does post, they are mostly just prod dodge type posts. There is no guarantee he is going to suddenly become useful later in the game.

Downside: if he flips scum, there isn't a lot of info to go on.

[VP Baltar]

Benefits of a Dunn wagon: he has contributed nothing despite me trying to prompt interaction from him several times. He may be following the thread and just not posting. When he does post, they are mostly just prod dodge type posts. There is no guarantee he is going to suddenly become useful later in the game.

Downside: if he flips scum, there isn't a lot of info to go on.

Ah the classic town shitting themselves on a d1 scum elim making wrong assumptions on associatives the rest of the game.

What? Who am I making associatives on?

[VP Baltar]

Are you asking me why I'm not voting him right now?

more or less, yeah.

People are smart they’ll figure it out.

so you *are* being bussed, thanks!

I really hope Italiano is Scum, only because if not, these sorts of posts are going to look so Scummy in retrospect.

This post would not be my example since Datisi is objectively right...

[VP Baltar]

why is this day not over

Lot of people not voting one of the top two wagons

[VP Baltar]

I think we should just yeet. The replacements won't be able to read 65 pages in a day most likely.

[VP Baltar]

who were the offer compromises?

Was you and Italiano. Now seems like GC is in the mix.

[VP Baltar]

Not me

[VP Baltar]

Not me

do you townread max?

I'm null on that slot really. Maxwell seems to be contributing, and I think they will be readable after a fresh day.

It's also a very low info yeet, in which case, I'd prefer dunn

[VP Baltar]

Let's get another vote and intent to hammer here. So he can claim

[VP Baltar]

Hammer time

[VP Baltar]

Scum afraid to vote lol

[VP Baltar]

Dunn and midwaybear are scum together imo

[VP Baltar]

Scum afraid to vote lol

what's this mean?

That scum were avoiding getting on italiano's wagon. I assumed it was because he was an obv yeet and it'd look like bussing when he flipped scum...but perhaps it was because they knew he was going to flip town?

The wagon was the obvious conclusion for the day and yet was stalled for quite awhile, so much so that italiano self hammered as a cop.....

[VP Baltar]

My first vote goes here

VOTE: harumi

Why

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: dunn

Btw

[VP Baltar]

I agree that I don't want a Dunn flip in just a couple pages. I have a busy work week and probably won't get serious time for this game until this weekend.

That being said. I think keeping him at Y-2 is fine for now. Doesn't change anything.


Pedit - holy Pedit after I stepped away to make coffee

[VP Baltar]

are these associates or just individual scumminess?

Dunn's unexplained aversion to voting Italiano at that point pinged me at the time as him possibly voting a scum buddy for future town cred.

[VP Baltar]

I also want to do some rereading of RTP obv. Green Crayons sticks out to me from memory as someone who was getting enough indirect heat from RTP to possibly end up on a kill list.

[VP Baltar]

@VPB have your views changed at all now that you see the same folks that pushed Italiano come out for Dunn? Or you think your read there is correct still?

I think the wagon speed isn't super indicative of anything until we know more. I'm absolutely not giving dunn a town pass because he's been scummy and caught votes off it. I think you're being way too generous there. Scum could feel like he is toast and a quick buss gives little info. Or perhaps a quick wagon scares people away.

We are both speculating it would seem.

Question for you: do you think more scum were likely on or off the italiano wagon yesterday?

[VP Baltar]

Dunn's unexplained aversion to voting Italiano at that point pinged me at the time as him possibly voting a scum buddy for future town cred.

Okay but Italiano flipped Town so how is this remotely relevant?

You kidding? You know scum know who the town are, right?

[VP Baltar]

Dunn's unexplained aversion to voting Italiano at that point pinged me at the time as him possibly voting a scum buddy for future town cred.

Okay but Italiano flipped Town so how is this remotely relevant?

You kidding? You know scum know who the town are, right?

You said you were SR’ing Dunn and midwaybear. Today. But your explanation is something that literally didn’t happen. So what are you saying exactly?

No I'm not saying I was scum reading midway. I'm saying that is one possible answer for Dunn's avoiding an inevitable wagon.

[VP Baltar]

Like how can you possibly know they’re both Scum? And that Dunn decided to land on midwaybear at the end of the day for “future Town cred”? Why are you so willing to give all of the early Italiano pushers a pass? Is it because you were one of them too?

Probably should check your facts on that

[VP Baltar]

You had a chance to vote him while a wagon was building there but chose to counter-wagon on me isntead

Waves hand at final vote count

[VP Baltar]

I'd prefer if you used your words

Look at the ending vote count for D1 and then reevaluate your statement.

[VP Baltar]

I then started looking for scum and didn't like what midway was doing

Had you been looking for scum prior to then?

[VP Baltar]

Like how can you possibly know they’re both Scum? And that Dunn decided to land on midwaybear at the end of the day for “future Town cred”? Why are you so willing to give all of the early Italiano pushers a pass? Is it because you were one of them too?

This is such a bad post, btw.

I never said I know for a fact midway and dunn are scum. I offered a theory that I think makes a lot of sense. The shade at the end of your post is also completely unfounded. I never gave a free pass to people on that wagon, nor am I asking for a free pass. You're making an awful lot of innuendo with zero reason other than...

*Checks notes*

..I still think my top scum read is scum.

[VP Baltar]

No I'm not saying I was scum reading midway. I'm saying that is one possible answer for Dunn's avoiding an inevitable wagon.

You could make this point about literally anyone not voting Italiano at the end of the day.

Well we had replacements we were waiting on, so that's null.

Of the people who showed up right at the end as the final hours of deadline ticked off, Dunn is the one who voted with very little reason on midway when it was obvious that wasn't going to happen.

It's not like Dunn was some Italiano stan all day. That would at least be a reasonable position then. But voting in a go nowhere spot as deadline looms and there is only one reasonably likely yeet for the day? Meh.

[VP Baltar]

The problem here is that everybody is looking at the game as if Italiano was the inevitable conclusion to the day

I counter by asking you who else was a viable yeet? As someone who tried to get traction other places, I assure you it was not easy.

I think you're kind of full of shit with this outrage about a Dunn wagon. I don't mind someone making the argument we should hunt on the Italiano wagon, but you're not making good arguments WHY...other than "italiano flip green," which is pretty basic thinking about what may have gone down there.

That being said, I do think GC is the scummiest of that wagon probably, so I can criticize your vote necessarily.

[VP Baltar]

Spoiler: Amish Tell Definition Source

Subject: Open 193 - Friends and Enemies: It's over!

@VP: To clarify; the difference is what happens after the reread that I didn't take into account before. Skimming posts for questions and answers (which was the failure); or criticism.

Jazzmyn
Scien
ABR (hi!)
yours truly

That's just ones that I've caught/remembered specifically.

For those of you that don't know what's going on; I've basically come up with a scumtell that if you *criticize* who you replaced in; you're scum. This is a refinement from what I had it (if you read your replacement at all you were scum); but this seems to cover all the instances where I've seen/remember it. If you're town, you really don't have to worry about your predecessor as you know they're town; but if you think that they're scummy; then you're scum. As town, you know that you're not scummy and don't deserve criticism at all.

Might be something to be said about VP knowing that momrangal is making an incorrect argument and ignoring? I'm not sure.

Haha, if you are bringing me into a debate on something that happened 11 years ago, you have much more faith in my memory than I do.

I miss Amished though! Fun and smart player.

[VP Baltar]

I counter by asking you who else was a viable yeet? As someone who tried to get traction other places, I assure you it was not easy.

If I remember correctly, deadline wasn’t some hours away. There was more than a full day left. My point is that with enough discussion, you never know what can happen. And there had been multiple votes for Green Crayons and RLotus even. Are you dismissing every other wagon that day as not viable? Because that seems laughable to me.

As the person who tried to get the RLotus wagon, I think it wasn't going to happen. I tried.

Yes, things can always shift. But the game energy was very dead at that point. There wasn't exactly inspirational debate happening at the time. We also needed at least one replacement at that point, iirc, with no stopping on deadline counter.

I can go get the receipts if necessary, but I've been a pretty active player all game and I feel like I had a pretty good sense of what was or wasn't likely at that point. Obviously you may see that differently, but I definitely got some energy toward other wagons and just couldn't get them. It felt very uphill to get any kind of consensus.

[VP Baltar]

That being said, I do think GC is the scummiest of that wagon probably, so I can criticize your vote necessarily.

Fact check...GC wasn't on the italiano wagon. Not sure why I thought he waa

[VP Baltar]

Was

[VP Baltar]

So andres, comparing the Italiano wagon to the Dunn wagon, it looks like the only overlap is Datisi, Lotus and myself, right?

So you think there is definitely scum in that group who is leading a speed yeet D2?

[VP Baltar]

Spoiler: Amish Tell Definition Source

Subject: Open 193 - Friends and Enemies: It's over!

@VP: To clarify; the difference is what happens after the reread that I didn't take into account before. Skimming posts for questions and answers (which was the failure); or criticism.

Jazzmyn
Scien
ABR (hi!)
yours truly

That's just ones that I've caught/remembered specifically.

For those of you that don't know what's going on; I've basically come up with a scumtell that if you *criticize* who you replaced in; you're scum. This is a refinement from what I had it (if you read your replacement at all you were scum); but this seems to cover all the instances where I've seen/remember it. If you're town, you really don't have to worry about your predecessor as you know they're town; but if you think that they're scummy; then you're scum. As town, you know that you're not scummy and don't deserve criticism at all.

Might be something to be said about VP knowing that momrangal is making an incorrect argument and ignoring? I'm not sure.

Haha, if you are bringing me into a debate on something that happened 11 years ago, you have much more faith in my memory than I do.

I miss Amished though! Fun and smart player.

This game is such a blast from the past! This site was so different then. 57 pages for an entire game and people are just chillax debating, imagine!

[VP Baltar]

Cookie, how many games of mafia have you completed?

[VP Baltar]

last minute wagons can materialize and hit scum idm datisi voting his heart

I have yet to see a CFD in this forum lead to Scum I have to say. But there’s always room for a surprise.

Obviously it’s not going to fail every time. But it always feels random to me. It leaves the game at the mercy of the most active players, and if you have good Scum, it leads to some bad conclusions typically.

hmm.

i have an idea right now but it's best explored later. anyway.

Way to dangle something interesting and then take it away!

I'm fine with later, but when is later? Today?

[VP Baltar]

Regardless, that’s quite speculative right now. I am trying to be more realistic. Scum tend not to be so loud. You guys are being loud. I think there’s Scum hiding behind you. And I would be amazed if the Italiano wagon was pure.

I don't doubt there was at least one scum on that wagon. Lotus isnt exactly in my town ride or die either.

That being said, I don't think Datisi is scum. I know I'm not scum.

The italiano wagon needs analysis, which I hope to do later this weekend when I have time to put serious thought into this game. I think that analysis includes both the people on it and people weirdly off it. Because, real talk, you can say Datisi or I are Bad At Mafia, but Italiano self-hammered as a cop, so....

The reason I'm slightly annoyed with you is that your thinking is coming across as very one dimensional. I know aggression is your playstyle, but this discussion so far doesn't feel very thought out or enlightening to me. Idk

[VP Baltar]

Cookie, how many games of mafia have you completed?

2 this is number 3

Cool.

I might suggest reading some ISOs of people you find suspicious. I get the sense from your reads list that you did a pretty cursory read, which I understand given the length of the game.

I think your slot is town and if we can get you more plugged in, you'll be more of an asset.

[VP Baltar]

GC: I don't have too much of an opinion. I remember him asking some questions that I thought were pro-town, but I'm not sure how easily they could be faked. I also am getting a negative gut impression, but that needs to be fleshed out more.

Would definitely be interested in hearing more on this when you figure out what is pinging your gut

[VP Baltar]

lol
Cookie Monster's "read list" is a scum claim
VOTE: Cookie Monster

Depressingly, don't think so, they appear to be a gimmick alt, not really expecting anything useful from them in terms of content.

I don't really have thoughts on the argument between datisi and andres, they don't look like scum to me, still think midwaybear is scummy.

Do you think elements' vote is scummy?

It kind of comes across that way to me. Cookie could be an alt, but if they are an actual noob, it seems like LHF

[VP Baltar]

Cookie could be an alt, but if they are an actual noob, it seems like LHF

after elements explains why they think Cookie is obvscum, i'd like to hear why you think Cookie is LHF

oh lol Elements answered at the page top

so, i'd like to hear why you think Cookie is LHF

Well that reads list is such a disaster it is comical to think scum would come out and post that without their buddies saying "hold up." If cookie is scum,they presumably don't have much experience and would be more likely to seek advice from buddies, I would think. If I was on that scum team, I certainly would have suggested revising that post considerably to be more mainstream.

Now, if we flip that and assume Cookie is town here, that's exactly the type of terrible post I'd capitalize on as scum to get an easy yeet. There are several poorly articulated reads on the list you could really hammer on and make cookie look scummy for because I doubt cookie has very solid justification for some of them.

[VP Baltar]

To elements' point, that might be a fair assessment. I'd need to look at Duchess's reads post because I don't recall what they were pursuing too well. I do recall their weak sheep of Lotus onto me, so that tracks I suppose

[VP Baltar]

And I appear to be his only scumread

Interesting, if for the fact it's not even a remotely accurate description of my stated suspicions this game. In other words, top =/= only.

Btw, who are your scum reads?

[VP Baltar]

ay yo baltar, is that italiano on/off wagon analysis still in the plan, or...?

It's in the plan, yes. I'm trying to talk myself into

~effort~

this afternoon.

[VP Baltar]

His vote on me is fine for the reasons he gave, but it is more of an interpretation thing that I don't want to get in an argument about. I hope he will see that I am town soon enough.

i wasn't arguing as if the "lol why am i still top wagon" is the crux of my dunn case anyway.

i am not actually sure what the above quote means? like yeah it's an interpretation thing and you agreed w me, no?

What is the crux of your case, exactly? As far as I can tell, it's that Dunn didn't vote Italiano and made a useless vote on midwaybear near the end of the day. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't really townread Dunn, but that's not...especially convincing?

The point of lurking is that there is never an especially convincing case to make, right?

[VP Baltar]

k since yall prob gonna try to hammer this while im at work - ill just out my theory now ~ i will ellaborate on this tomorrow if im alive but if somehow italiano flips town, im looking at a crackpot theory of andres, maxwell, GC.


but the way italiano formed their reads list suggests they arent flipping town so im not too pressed about it, i just would rather do this in case im nightkilled and all.

This may not be entirely crackpot.

[VP Baltar]

That feel when the three top wagons (as of 1440) are your three stated townreads

This post pings me

Feels like something that comes from scum

1132 and 1362 feel scummy to me as well

VOTE: midwaybear

No it doesn't
Why is it scum?

Also noting that RTP saw the same exact thing Datisi and I did with this vote.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, now I'm going to get into some VC thoughts. This is mostly just a speculation word vomit post because I haven't really had time to think about this until I'm writing this post, but let's see if this goes anywhere.

With 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to eliminate someone.

ItalianoVD (7): Reformed Toxic Player, Datisi, RLotus, VP Baltar, midwaybear, maxwell, ItalianoVD <--EXECUTED
maxwell(1): Green Crayons
Green Crayons (1): Andresvmb
midwaybear (1): Dunnstral
Elements (1): Battle Mage
VP Baltar (1): Duchess
RLotus (1): Elements

So my first assumption here is that I'm reading Datisi correctly. I will obviously reassess if I need to there, but I really have not seen any serious indication he is scum. He could be pocketing me of course, but thoughts and lines of questions feel transparent and genuine.

So working from that assumption, that leaves me with: RLotus, midwaybear, maxwell as possible scum on that wagon.

That's actually a very small pool to shoot in and now my gut is saying that if I think one of those people is scum, yeeting there has the highest chance to hit scum.

Midwaybear

Midway's vote is pretty unremarkable.

VOTE: ItalianoVD
I'm subscribing to this wagon

And Dunn perhaps isn't entirely wrong that midway's move toward that wagon in post 1362 rings as slightly scummy.

Why is RLotus being wagoned? Looking at the votecount, I could vote GC, Italiano, and RLotus if people sell me on it.
I think RTP has been quite townie this game, and, again, I don't know if "oppurtunisitc" means scum VPB.

I never get a sense of why midway prefers Italiano or votes there. Going back to look through midway's ISO for mentions of Italiano...it's a lot of weak statements that don't come to a significant conclusion.

Midway, can you explain for me again why you chose to vote Italiano over GC or Lotus at the end of D1?

RLotus

I mean, look, lord knows I had my issues with Lotus yesterday. We can now definitively say his push on Italiano was not accurate, and to me it hedged into bad faith territory at times.

I can say definitively from my perspective that Lotus only stopped this argument to pick up a very bad faith fight with me.

I largely backed off this fight with Lotus yesterday because I felt like it was not being productive and I didn't want it to go into toxic land because I was getting mad about people actually agreeing with his case...which to me was just an indication they were not reading it.

Anyhow, I do think it is possibly worth people reconsidering Lotus in light of the Italiano flip. I think rereading that fight and seeing Lotus argue bad faith against town is notable.

maxwell

I didn't really have a read on Harumi before, and maxwell has felt just OK content-wise to me. My gut hasn't really been strongly pinged either way, though as I'm rereading their ISO, I get the sense that I've probably just been shelving them because on the surface, they are saying things I generally agree with (Dunn has scummy behavior, Datisi is town, etc.)

maxwell's own progression on Italiano mirrors my own as well. Early on after replacing in, he says this:

I'm not really sure why people were scumreading Italiano, his early play was a little awkward initially but I never felt there was a string case there. He made a few posts later that I liked.

Later, after maxwell says he can kind of see Datisi's point, he decides to change his vote under mild Datisi pressure and a looming deadline. That feels fairly natural to me.

I don't have strong conclusions here, but of the three on the wagon I listed above, I think maxwell comes across the least scummy in there progressions and interactions.

That being said, I definitely was not a fan of this post at the start of the day on a gut level.

That self hammer while being a neapolitan was kind of gross. Why not just claim?

Just absolutely unbelievable. I guess no one actually asked him to claim, but I would have assumed he'd have claimed if he was something important, not selfhammering as a goddamn neapolitan. Killed any desire to reread the game on my part.

VOTE: midwaybear

I don't think this is a bad vote but I'd also still do GC.

It's factually inaccurate that no one asked him to claim, and it's like a "well, I guess he deserved it!" post. Dunn's doing the same thing of course. It's probably not alignment indicative, but my gut says those types of slams upon the yeeted could be more likely from scum. IDK, I'm rambling.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, that's some on wagon analysis.

I will try to get to some off wagon looks later today. Apologies this is getting strung out. I've just had a lot of work come up recently (including yesterday afternoon when I meant to do this.)

[VP Baltar]

He was playing more cautiously/passively than he normally does as town and it is likely due to that fact.

I don't disagree that PRs can certainly ping as scum, and I can't really speak to your personal experience playing with him.

My read on it is definitely colored by my own interaction with you, which I personally know was wrong as well. That's two giant pushes from you yesterday that were off base.

Maybe if I got a better sense where your head is at today, I might feel differently.

[VP Baltar]

I don't know if Italiano was necessarily playing cautiously given he self-hammered as a cop. but anyhow.

[VP Baltar]

After reading a couple VPB games,

which games were those?

[VP Baltar]

he's attacking seemingly easier avenues

who are the hard avenues I should be attacking? How successful have these easy avenues been for me given their ease?

I'm not sure what you're referring to about RTP specifically.

[VP Baltar]

After reading a couple VPB games,

which games were those?

Mini Theme 2165, Open 802, Mini 2180

Probably a fair assessment in those mini themes. I don't like people when they make half baked cases against me as town. I'm a very fact oriented person, and I think people playing mafia are maybe less so. You're not wrong though that I'm biased toward seeing scum in those scenarios.

Open 802 was me just kicking ass though MAAAAN.

[VP Baltar]

Blah, I like that assessment from Lotus, like a lot.

[VP Baltar]

You also immediately tagged on the amished tell there and completely ignored it here. I get the sense that you could make a read of it, successfully did it there but isn't paying mind to it here.

I really was not following this between you and Dunn, but as I said to Dunn, if you expect me to remember a discussion from a forum mafia game from 11 years ago, that just isn't happening.

I did not play mafia, or even think about playing mafia, between 2013 and 2020. After Dunn tagged the actual game, I went back and read that section to even understand what the tell was you guys were referring to. I can certainly weigh in on the point now that I refreshed on it, but I had no memory of it until that point.

[VP Baltar]

k since yall prob gonna try to hammer this while im at work - ill just out my theory now ~ i will ellaborate on this tomorrow if im alive but if somehow italiano flips town, im looking at a crackpot theory of andres, maxwell, GC.


but the way italiano formed their reads list suggests they arent flipping town so im not too pressed about it, i just would rather do this in case im nightkilled and all.

This may not be entirely crackpot.

at which cracks in this pot are you looking at here?

(does that even make sense? you know what i mean)

I would be surprised if that's the entire team, but GC and/or andres have variously made me feel uneasy this game in ways I haven't really articulated to myself. When I've gone back over each, they have pushes that seem logical, but I don't get a lot of passion from what they are doing in the game? Maybe it's just a side effect of life getting in the way, but andres like game out swinging today about voting on wagon and stuff...and then votes off wagon onto GC? It's weird.

maxwell, as I said above, I don't have a lot of strong feelings about right now.

[VP Baltar]

Midway, can you explain for me again why you chose to vote Italiano over GC or Lotus at the end of D1?

I voted because Italiano was the largest wagon at the time.

Did you find him scummy? I felt like, looking at your ISO, earlier in the day you did not.

[VP Baltar]

So Mom Ran Gal, if I'm reading you correctly, you think maxwell and I were the scummiest people on the Italiano wagon?

[VP Baltar]

Oh, is it Mom Rang Al? I like that one.

[VP Baltar]

Where is everyone btw? This is extremely hard if no one is playing.

[VP Baltar]

I haven't actually read Maxwell himself but I think (harumi slot) and you are individually the two most scummiest people ye.

This is a bad post.

[VP Baltar]

And yet I town read your two predecessors. This is going to be a rough game

[VP Baltar]

I mean yeah, again, this slot is definitely worth flipping. And I would argue it would clear Dunn.

I'm not following how a GC scum flip clears dunn outright...what are you seeing here?

[VP Baltar]

could you link this? i'm scrolling around early green's iso, and i don't see it.

Do you think Duchess and Italiano are scum together? Or that duchess was scum trying to pocket a low hanging fruit townie?

I toyed with the idea of maybe s/s, but that post I was quoting specifically feels more like s/t. Also on the aggression scale my Q to VD was so benign that I don’t think a scum would have felt compelled to preemptively attack it on behalf of another scum who hadn’t yet responded. Couple that with VD-scum turning around to vote Dutchess-scum seems unlikely though not out of the realm of reasonable strategy (this doesn’t seem like a quick elim game, in terms of attitude and no players that I know of who will insta hammer).

The very first sentence confirms what I’m saying. They “toyed with the idea” of Italiano and Duchess being both Scum, but after Italiano turns around and votes for Duchess, it appears to be less likely (but not that they leave themselves open by saying that it could just be “strategy”).

I just want to clarify your viewpoint here, you think that was scum!VP asking scum!GC a clarifying point about the crux of your scum!GC case?

[VP Baltar]

I'm not following how a GC scum flip clears dunn outright...what are you seeing here?

GC moved away from Duchess and voted Dunn, and they did the same thing today. If GC is Scum I would argue that they haven’t been trying to bus their Partner spontaneously since D1.

Ok, that makes sense as a take

[VP Baltar]

why would Baltar need to know that there was a neighborizer? what is even your thought process.

I saw Baltar's post and thought either he was just shooting the breeze, and it was worth putting out a crumb, or maybe similar to a game i just played (I believe with Baltar) where there were multiple folks of the same role (here, neighborizers) and he was trying to see if there was a similar situation

Got to say, I'm not buying this exchange.

I definitely did not see your reply as a claim of any type. I had a reason behind that post, but it wasn't about neighborizers.

[VP Baltar]

Why are you both running interference for Green Crayons? Every time I post or push there, you both [Datisi, VPB] come out of the woodwork to either intensely question my argument, or divert the conversation in some other direction. What’s going on?

I don't think that is what is happening at all?????

[VP Baltar]

There’s something strange going on. You and GC vibed extremely well D1. Can you at least agree with that? I don’t want to have to quote interactions between the two of you. You guys were discussing all kinds of view points, with GC defending you as Town repeatedly, and with you returning the favor for the most part. But today, as I quoted, you’ve changed your tune. It’s a subtle but remarkable change of perspective.

Maybe you both wouldn’t as Scum make yourselves so obvious. I suppose you’re trying to get at that argument. And perhaps I would agree. If it weren’t for the fact that you’re now distancing from each other. But again, it’s something to focus on later, after we’ve had a flip. Right now, it’s just too early to tell.

I don't really agree, but it's fine. I also don't want to get into a quote wall war with you about it.

The only point I'll make in counter is that my "vibing" play looks like my play around Datisi, not my play around GC.

I think you're reaching for connections, but you do you.

[VP Baltar]

I can’t remember if you were in that game Datisi I’ll go look. But Flavor Leaf made the claim as Scum that they were a Friendly Neighbor with Koba who confirmed their role when they were both Scum, and the actual claim happened with Flavor under some pressure but not at E-1 under the threat of a hammer.

Oh god, don't dredge up that shitshow.

Honestly, I get why andres is annoyed here. That claim seemed unnecessary.

At the same time, GC will presumably get NKed tonight? Or have to recruit a second person to corroborate this claim.

GC, did you assume I had some knowledge of your role when I was spouting off at the start of the game?

[VP Baltar]

At the same time, GC will presumably get NKed tonight? Or have to recruit a second person to corroborate this claim.

With several players voting there, and me screaming for their head? What, to blunt a Neighborizer claim? Highly unlikely.

Right. I guess that is why I wrote the latter part. He at the very least has to "prove" his claim.

Question: if a neighborizers dies, does the neighborhood break up?

[VP Baltar]

Does anybody here really believe that GC revealing who they believe a nice Town core would be would place them any more in harms way than any other Town making arguments about why other players are Town (and being correct)?

Well I can see a very obvious reason to not spout off about potential future targets.

Also do you think he is lying that he has done this?

Pedit: lol

[VP Baltar]

HAHAHA

I knew it.

Alright, Green Crayons can die. If they flip Scum, flip Datisi.

This is fucking dumb.

It was pretty obvious it was Datisi.

Andres, how exactly does that make Datisi scummy? What information was gained now that you know for sure it was Datisi?

[VP Baltar]

????????????

do you genuinely think i'm scum with green, and we're faking a hood together to get him out of shit?

Had they tried to Neighborize RTP I would have been more inclined to believe it.

My guy. There is no world where scum!Datisi claims to be neighborizers by his buddy who may or may not flip today.

I don't think we know GC's alignment, but that is just a dumb tunnel take you're spewing right now.

[VP Baltar]

But does Datisi make sense to you as their target for the Neighborizing?

I actually think a midfield townread might be where I would neighborize as well if I was in that spot, with my goal being to get a stronger town read on that slot.

I can't speak to GC's reasons. It just doesn't seem illogical to me. I can think of another reason he might target Datisi, but I'll let him reply.

[VP Baltar]

It does make more sense why GC came out hard today against dunn though

[VP Baltar]

I have {GC, VPB, Elements} v. {Duchess/Cookie Monster, RLotus}

I'm not 100% certain I really understand what is going on with this list.

I definitely do not think elements is town. I'm also curious where midway falls on this list?

Can you explain a bit more here? I feel like you're saying people in these brackets share alignments or something, but I don't follow at all. Why are cookie and Lotus the same alignment necessarily?

[VP Baltar]

The engagement this game is just too low.

Agree. I want to hear from people who haven't been posting in recent hours

[VP Baltar]

Question: if a neighborizers dies, does the neighborhood break up?

my role doesn't say, i'm asking for clarification

mod: can you clarify this in thread, thanks

[VP Baltar]

I also don’t know that I believe that RTP was wrong about everything but they were NK’ed. And them claiming a Macho modifier certainly wouldn’t have gotten them killed given their history of false claims (they even fake claimed Mason as Town in a game, I mean c’mon).

Yeah, I don't think we should presume they were wrong.

That being said, their death has had a noticable effect on game activity.

[VP Baltar]

But does Datisi make sense to you as their target for the Neighborizing?

I actually think a midfield townread might be where I would neighborize as well if I was in that spot, with my goal being to get a stronger town read on that slot.

I can't speak to GC's reasons. It just doesn't seem illogical to me. I can think of another reason he might target Datisi, but I'll let him reply.

GC, can you explain your thought process in picking Datisi?

[VP Baltar]

he was mid town, didn't think he was going to get NKed, also wanted him to discuss a thing about you because i was getting paranoid about my read on you for a couple of reasons but you and him were vibing hardcore D1 so figured he'd have some useful thoughts

Ok, thanks.

This is what I was getting at when I said I could see another reason for picking Datisi. He and I have clearly tied our fortunes to some degree, so neighborizing one is like a 2-for-1 to some extent.

I did this exact play as a friendly neighbor when Datisi and Iconeum were hardcore town locked in a recent game. I sent my message to Datisi to prove my towniness and by proxy link up with Iconeum.

[VP Baltar]

I did this exact play as a friendly neighbor when Datisi and Iconeum were hardcore town locked in a recent game.

Or was it the inverse? I can't remember

[VP Baltar]

would be shocked, shocked if {Dunn, midway, mom} contains 0 scum

This is kind of where my head is at

[VP Baltar]

Glad you both remembered. Let's hear those takes

[VP Baltar]

diminishing her value as a person

What?

[VP Baltar]

I'm very confused how dunn is your strongest town read

[VP Baltar]

I basically don't like how you have so much more to say about a supposed null lean town read than a strong scum read. BUT I caught something early day one and I maybe expecting some results from what I've seen

I mean, reading back over those posts, I can say I was definitely annoyed with the way duchess was playing throughout the game, which came across to me as simultaneously disengaged and hyper aggressive.

As much as I think Dunn could be scum here, he is pretty calm and doesn't aggressively misinterpret game statements.

I also acknowledge your perspective is likely very different since you weren't involved in real time.

Anyhow, just seemed a weird thing to say.

[VP Baltar]

Momrangal, can I get your bullet points on maxwell? I know you were suspicious of Harumi, but can I get your points on maxwell specifically?

[VP Baltar]

Let's talk a little off wagon analysis from D1:

maxwell(1): Green Crayons
Green Crayons (1): Andresvmb
midwaybear (1): Dunnstral
Elements (1): Battle Mage
VP Baltar (1): Duchess
RLotus (1): Elements

Alright, first off, looking at how scattered this off wagon stuff is difficult. My gut tells me scum were avoiding the Italiano wagon, in part, because there was really no consolidation elsewhere. I'm mostly looking for consistency in reads here and generally unlikelihood that the vote was shift the game state away from Italiano in those final hours.

Green Crayons:

GC definitely talks about Harumi suspicion off and on, and gets into with RTP a little bit over RTP's towntell on Harumi.

GC's maxwell vote comes about two days before deadline, citing his dissatisfaction with the Italiano wagon. There are a couple posts where he asks if people will join a maxwell speed wagon after his vote. So, some follow up, but it's not hugely convincing.

Dunn

I generally agree with what Datisi has said here. The vote on midway was extremely last minute and came out of nowhere. Arguably his prior vote on Elements had a more likely chance of succeeding at that point. It just felt like a move that was devoid of town motivation to get an actual Italiano alternative.

Andres

Andres' progression on GC yesterday isn't SUPER clear, but he shifts from a null read on GC to a vote over this post:

I'm still here on RTP. Come back. It's warm and cozy. Or how about maxwell for lazily riding RTP's coattails in pushing a GC vote on weaksauce theory, after RTP early called his slot town.

Yeah I would nuke this too.

There is definitely follow up and a little bit of sparing with GC after the vote ( which happened several days before deadline), plus follow up today. This vote doesn't feel like a forced avoidance of Italiano.

I will say on reread, I still hate this post though because it feels like TMI:

Are you asking me why I'm not voting him right now?

more or less, yeah.

People are smart they’ll figure it out.

so you *are* being bussed, thanks!

I really hope Italiano is Scum, only because if not, these sorts of posts are going to look so Scummy in retrospect.

Momrangal (Battle Mage)

The vote on elements first happens like a week before deadline and BM definitely follows up on it, sparing with Elements pretty aggressively. Then we get a cycle of votes through various people and the toxic fight with RTP.

BM kind of checks out after that fight and votes elements again two days before deadline before lurking out. BM also had Italiano as "locktown" from super early on.

Given I also had a town read on the BM slot, I really don't think this is scum off wagon.

Duchess (Cookie Monster)

This is impossible to judge. Duchess voted me well before deadline and got into a poorly articulated wall fight with me after lurking for a long time. My gut here is probably still town, and they were falling behind without reading much of the context of the game.

I can definitely say this vote wasn't meant as an easy sluff off the Italiano wagon though, as Duchess wasn't really around enough for that to be true.

Elements

Elements is probably on the scummier side of these off wagon votes.

They first vote Lotus around three days before deadline after they first attacked me in the VP/Duchess interaction...which IIRC was an offshoot of the Lotus case on me. When I attacked the Lotus case and explained why it was bunk, Elements then had Lotus at the bottom of their scumlist with maxwell. I found that slightly strange.

Elements then unvotes Lotus for maxwell, and then flops back very last minute.

@elements why are you voting lotus now?

I don't think anyone I want to vote out is getting voted out and I don't want any of the people it looks like are going to be voted out to be voted out. I also liked maxewll's most recent catch up

why is this day not over

That's Elements' explanation for the Lotus vote and follow up.

They could be very disengaged town here, but it is obvious they are also not really trying to get their preferred wagon for the day and are fine with Italiano as an outcome despite Italiano being one of their top tier town reads.

[VP Baltar]

Most of what I gleamed when I got to maxwell posts was that he's mostly doing a ton of IIOA, offering a bunch of his opinions on matters but not actually figuring out the mindset. He mostly going "hey guys I'm here!" And I can't even make head or tails on who he actually thinks about the game state and the people in the game

He's definitely a little bit wallpaper. I don't know if I find him super scummy personally given I could say that about several players (Cookie Monster, Elements, etc)

[VP Baltar]

So yeah:

Dunn-elements would be my top picks for scum off wagon if I'm purely looking for people who were fine with the Italiano yeet without being on it.

[VP Baltar]

Where is midway?

[VP Baltar]

Present. I'll give some thoughts later, but can answer any questions.

When is later?

[VP Baltar]

That's pretty eerie

If I was scum, I would have ignored it.

Idk, youve been very lackluster after entry into the game.

Who are your scum reads again? Maybe just a full reads list from you would be helpful

[VP Baltar]

Why are you townreading Elements?

[VP Baltar]

Same sentiment at VPB thinking the neighborizer would get shot, not sure why that would happen

Just thinking that if I was scum and GC was town, I certainly wouldn't want him grouping a bunch of townies together in a neighborhood. Suddenly then the uninformed majority becomes much closer to being informed.

[VP Baltar]

Doesn't your description of my play here sound different from the game where we were scum together?

I will reread that game today if I can and look specifically at your aggression levels.

In the meantime, I'd take your feedback on my wagon analysis posts, sans my review of you I guess.

[VP Baltar]

Suddenly then the uninformed majority becomes much closer to being informed.

That's not how neighborhoods work

If you know what you're doing and use them to build trust, they do

[VP Baltar]

BM kind of checks out after that fight and votes elements again two days before deadline before lurking out. BM also had Italiano as "locktown" from super early on.

oh, i actually forgot about this. yeah, this slot is most likely town. i think this was around the time of the first major wagon on italiano, right? while it's theoretically possible that scum!bm decided to dismantle that for reasons, i don't think that's actually very likely. from what i've seen of bm's scumgame, he seemed like a line of least resistance scumplayer, and would probably just let the wagon be.

Yeah, it was the first Italiano wagon. I definitely don't see scum BM making those moves

[VP Baltar]

Datisi, could I get your overall take on the wagon analysis since you poked me about it. Anything that feels like wrong conclusions to you?

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:

I may be down for a cookie monster or midway yeet today. I want to take a min to review my fight with duchess once more and reevaluate how I feel about that with some distance.

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:

I may be down for a cookie monster or midway yeet today. I want to take a min to review my fight with duchess once more and reevaluate how I feel about that with some distance.

if this is the result of the meta reeval or whatever, i'd love to hear it.

No no. I've been thinking about midway since my analysis on that wagon. I won't have time to look at Dunn meta until later today probably (though meta is meh-ta)

[VP Baltar]

ah, gotcha. i just kinda assumed since it was just an unvote and not a different vote, you feel.

It's basically a *thinking* unvote

[VP Baltar]

and just by looking at day 2, do you really feel like dunn is trying to solve this game?

I find Cookie Monster a much worse offender in this regard than Dunn today.

Are you looking into maxwell's counter point about cookie meta?

[VP Baltar]

This weekend is going to be rough times huh. I'll try to get some fresh fodder today.

Lotus, you around?

[VP Baltar]

Lotus, you around?

As in, could I get your take on the claim? You said andres is obvtown. What's your take on the neighborizer stuff? You agree with andres that GC is possibly scum coming off that? Different take?

[VP Baltar]

What do you think of Andres out of that exchange?

[VP Baltar]

OK, I reread the game where Dunn was scum with me and now I'm less confident my memory gave a good recounting of his play. He definitely lurked and avoided any serious scumhunting, much like he is doing here.

But he was slightly more active, particularly with me as his scum buddy. I'm less confident now this isn't just Dunn being lax this game (and I'd love if that could stop if you're town!)

In other news, midway was in that same game, and I'll say he comes across much more loose in Mini 2195. Midway is even aloof that game. Granted, this was like a year ago and maybe he has just gotten more focused in games. But I don't feel that same looseness and willingness to say something "wrong" from him.

VOTE: midway

[VP Baltar]

Whoops, grabbed the wrong link! hahah.

I meant Mini 2141

[VP Baltar]

Hello

Oh no

[VP Baltar]

It's about to get weird kids

[VP Baltar]

VPB has been sarcastic about arguments against them.

Oh dear

[VP Baltar]

This is a very strong reaction to a midway vote, Andres.

I'd love for you to illustrate the momentum that exists for a midway wagon that I'm exploiting.

[VP Baltar]

Also,

mod: your vote count is wrong. I'm on midway

<<Fixed. Apologies.>>

[VP Baltar]

Your jump on Italiano is actually quite Scummy. I don’t know how I didn’t see that before.

It's not though? I was very transparent with why I voted italiano. The fact you had a go nowhere vote, made a big deal out of examining the wagon, forced a GC claim (off wagon), and now are trying to make hay on me for weak sauce seems more scummy...but what you do you.

[VP Baltar]

But then there seems to be some momentum against midwaybear

Again, where's the momentum toward midwaybear muh guy

[VP Baltar]

I really do think you helped instigate the seemingly permanent Duchess v. Green Crayons fight.

GC, was I instigating the fight you had with duchess?

[VP Baltar]

You have tried to get RLotus to stop TR’ing me repeatedly.

RLotus, do you feel like I've tried to influence your read of Andres in anyway?

[VP Baltar]

You’ve encouraged Datisi interminably in their push on Dunn which you yourself of course have tried to carry out.

Datisi, have I encouraged you to tunnel Dunn in anyway?

[VP Baltar]

instead of trying to dissuade them aggressively away from Italiano who you TR, you decided to succumb to their bad points and vote there. For information and consolidation.

Yep! A yeet D1 is better than no yeet. I will sheep a town read. I don't care if that brings heat. It is much better than voting an off wagon that is never going to happen. I pushed multiple people I felt stronger about y'day and couldn't quite get the wagons there. That's verifiable

[VP Baltar]

You did. Trying to argue that you didn’t is laughable

K man. I'm not arguing anything. Asking the people directly who you are saying I'm manipulating. Seems fair.

[VP Baltar]

This is you encouraging Datisi’s wrong Italiano read.

Because I asked him to explain his read. Wut?

[VP Baltar]

Anyway those people can speak for themselves.

Can they? You seem pretty eager to jump in.


Still waiting on that midway momentum

[VP Baltar]

few hard positions

What have your hard positions been this game, btw?

[VP Baltar]

Hello

Oh no

Explain?

It was a joke.

[VP Baltar]

Baltar, have you explained why you have changed your stance on midway? if yes, please link. if no, please explain. if you think it hasn't changed, please address it from that POV.

You mean from D1 to now?

Two main things. First, my own wagon analysis on Italiano and who I thought was most likely to be scum there. Second, the extreme dip in game involvement since coming on the scene. He is struggling to stay engaged in the game, and has said weirdly a couple times that he can't find scum in the game, only town. That can def happen to townies, but I think at this stage of the game, you should have at least some scum indicators to follow.

[VP Baltar]

happy birthday, Baltar

who are scum?

Thank you!

On scum, midway is where my vote is at. I'm still not sold on Dunn, but I'm giving myself a break there to think about the game in different ways. That being said, if midway flips scum, people should absolutely not give dunn a free pass just for voting.

I'm eagerly awaiting DGB to get in the mix, since I had sinking feelings about elements before they lurked out.

There is probably someone severely in my blindspot, but it is really hard when I feel like there are only a small handful of players who are actively contributing to the game. I definitely have a bias right now to seeing activity moving the gamestate as at least marginally pro-town.

[VP Baltar]

VPB why do you keep emphasizing that other people being scum doesn't make me town?

Who else did I say this about besides midway?

[VP Baltar]

I just think you've been independently scummy. Andres in particular seemed to be saying you're town based on flips, and I'm not sold on that. If midway flips scum, I'll certainly reconsider my thoughts on you, but I'm saying it's not a free pass from my perspective.

[VP Baltar]

I'm still here but struggling to think of things to say. Still okay with voting midway, I think. I'll try to review things tomorrow.

Who is scum outside midway?

[VP Baltar]

This game is really hard to follow for some reason

If you're just going to post useless crap, why should we not yeet you?

[VP Baltar]

@baltar, i'd like your comment on 2274. and like, general read on andres rn.

It reads like a shifting goal post to me a bit. What I said was accurate. We were nearing deadline, I wasn't super into Italiano and I was trying to understand why you were. After you wrote through that answer, I could see how the second point came across scummy to you and put my vote there.

That doesn't change my intention on the original question.

As far as my feelings on Andres, idk. I could see his push on me coming from town, but it's not well done or thought through. I have a hard time not feeling attacked by scum when I think people are making bad cases, mostly because no think I play in a fairly transparent way. So my instinct is always: 'you trying to misread me?'

I doubt I'd be down for an Andres yeet today, but I'm definitely watching to see where his thoughts land because he has really been all over the place this game.

[VP Baltar]

I’m that useless

[VP Baltar]

Here is my thing generally: Everyone lurking the hell out of this game can't be scum, but those folks are certainly helping scum. It's springtime and people are probably just enjoying the weather, which is cool and I support. A post a day from town members would be helpful. It is very hard to catch scum when they could potentially hide among half the players lurking.

[VP Baltar]

I want to say that scum probably are more comfortable posting right now while town just don't really care.

Would love to hear your explanation for that.

[VP Baltar]

That Claim by Cookie Monster is too specific so I’m going to assume that it’s just Town.

@Cookie, a word of advice for future games. Just because you’re upset, it doesn’t mean that you should be (i) self-voting, and (ii) revealing your claim under limited pressure. You’re playing against the Town win condition by needlessly revealing information about your role.

You're assuming this claim is real as opposed to just being erratic?

[VP Baltar]

You're assuming this claim is real as opposed to just being erratic?

You’re not serious.

I am being serious. I think cookie could fake there as either alignment.

Btw, you still haven't explained why you wanted to focus on the Italiano wagon and then voted off it.

[VP Baltar]

Andres, what is your reasoning for believing that bullshit but pushing on GC's verifiable claim so hard? Are you just gullible?

[VP Baltar]

Btw, you still haven't explained why you wanted to focus on the Italiano wagon and then voted off it.

I’m voting for you. So you can drop this now.

Yeah, you voted me after I pointed this out, as far as I recall. I'd like you to explain your reasoning prevoting me

[VP Baltar]

You’re really Scum aren’t you? I backed off GC, and said that after their claim I re-evaluated. And the claim did need to get pushed - they were hiding an important part of their claim.

I'll tell you what I think.

You may be scum here who is eager to expose as much town info as possible. You couldn't fucking stand that GC wouldn't say who was in the neighborhood, but you think an unpressured self vote, doc claim is obviously real? I have a hard time believing either of those come from a town mindset.

[VP Baltar]

I don’t know why my voting pattern matters as much for my argument.

Because it's not consistent with what you said your own mindset was. If you believed there was scum on the wagon that were voting Dunn up, then you as town should have obviously voted there. The problem for you was that the people who fit that bill the most were Datisi, lotus and myself.

Datisi and myself are harder votes and Lotus was a townread of yours iirc.

It literally didn't make sense at the time, and I think you're trying to force it to make sense now. I'm asking you to actually explain your logic here because I want to know if you were scum or town bullshitting. I'd honestly prefer if you're town to just admit you weren't making sense there, rather than doubling down and saying that defending Dunn is somehow logically the same as hunting on the wagon, because it just isn't.

[VP Baltar]

You may be scum here who is eager to expose as much town info as possible. You couldn't fucking stand that GC wouldn't say who was in the neighborhood, but you think an unpressured self vote, doc claim is obviously real? I have a hard time believing either of those come from a town mindset.

So I’m what, the fourth player that after expressing some mistrust in your direction, you feel the need to find some bullshit excuse to SR? Noted.

I know my alignment. Everyone pushing trash my way isn't town. I'm happy to call bullshit when I see it. You don't get a pass because others have done it.

[VP Baltar]

But since VPB, who I’m SR’ing, seems so intent on tearing down the claim, it makes me want to believe it.

What's my scum motivation for that?

If I'm scum and I know cookie is town, then cool for me. Free claim. I could then move on to forcing another person to claim today and I can sort out priorities with NKs. This is exactly what I'm saying you're doing.

Town absolutely has reason to at least question why cookie would claim there. There was no town motivation behind it.

[VP Baltar]

Even if I maintained that the Italiano wagon had Scum, there’s nothing wrong or illogical with trying to sort certain slots I found Scummy outside of the wagon. This isn’t complicated.

No actually, what you are saying is unnecessarily complicated. If I strongly felt there was scum in 3-4 people, it's much better I spend my time hunting in that group. You have a 25-33% chance of hitting scum on a random vote if you're right. Effectively applying pressure there can only increase those odds. Hunting the entire game after your stated premise lowers your odds of hitting scum.

You can claim it is narrow thinking, but in reality it only makes sense if you actually believe what you are saying.

[VP Baltar]

Cookie claimed Doctor. If they’re Town, of course there’s a Scum motivation to diminishing the slot or trying to get it executed, so that they don’t block a potential NK.

I think we should yeet midway today tho...

[VP Baltar]

If cookie clarifies that that was a legit claim I’ll switch my vote

Otherwise I disagree with Andres that the claim itself is AI

I'd rather we don't try to verify the doc claim. I don't think we should yeet cookie today

[VP Baltar]

Meaning I think the scum is in Dunn, midway, maxwell, DGB, and Momrangal.

I'm fairly sure mom is town

[VP Baltar]

Baltar why were you focused on whether there was midway momentum?

Because it was a clear overstatement to bolster a point.

[VP Baltar]

what makes you think scum takes charge / encourages people to vote as opposed to just lurking?

Because scum might fell self-conscious about lurking. I know that you and VPB are generally quite active, so I imagine that it would be hard to lurk as scum, especially in a good position.

This makes no sense. Lurking as scum is the easiest thing in the world to do.

I can and do strategically avoid threads as scum. There is no way as scum I would encourage life into a stagnant gamestate. There's no tangible benefit beyond possibly being able to say LAMIST, and there are huge potential downsides if people get involved and sentiments shift.

[VP Baltar]

Andres, would you say at this point that your entire game view hinges on me being scum?

[VP Baltar]

Also, midway should claim if GC has legit intent to hammer

[VP Baltar]

yes

what does that tell you

That town is remarkably cooperative or that one of you isn't that strong in their own opinions.

This gets at what I'm saying about town needing to be more active. I'm locktown on Datisi, so don't expect that to shift unless I see something drastic. There needs to be other viewpoints expressed if people want other wagons to happen. I'm going to push what I see as most scummy.

Don't be pushovers if you don't agree, but if you have Datisi and I as town, you should see the power of lock reads. It puts the scum in a very uncomfortable position of not controlling the game state. That might be ok when we are wrong (italiano), but once we get locked in on scum, it is very bad for them.

My other pretty much locktown read is momrangal, but she isn't around on weekends.

[VP Baltar]

Did you push on elements before?

[VP Baltar]

So if I read you right, your best guess at the scum team right now is VP-elements-maxwell?

[VP Baltar]

I really want a chance to read up before there's any sort of hammer

What does read up mean?

Dgb, can you say what prompted that post?

[VP Baltar]

Not iso, but look at all my my posts on site.

I believe you if you say you're in a bad headspace for mafia. That seems not alignment indicative. Ideally, we can all have a fun game here. Since you're only reading from your replacement forward, it's probably going to take a bit for you to get into the flow of the game

[VP Baltar]

So if I read you right, your best guess at the scum team right now is VP-elements-maxwell?

Elements/DGB I do not know if they are Scum. I think one of you and maxwell probably flips Scum yeah. You more so than maxwell.

Well based on your town reads, that seems to be the only possible solve that I see in your post. Who are my scum buddies in your eyes if not them?

[VP Baltar]

So if I read you right, your best guess at the scum team right now is VP-elements-maxwell?

Elements/DGB I do not know if they are Scum. I think one of you and maxwell probably flips Scum yeah. You more so than maxwell.

Well based on your town reads, that seems to be the only possible solve that I see in your post. Who are my scum buddies in your eyes if not them?

Why are you pressuring me so hard to give you a 3/3 solve? Like why is that important at this stage? I have some TRs, some players I could see as Scum but I am null on right now, and two players I would to execute today: you, and maxwell. From going back to the early part of the game, I think Harumi's posts look bad. That is the slot maxwell replaced into.

I'm pressuring you because despite what you are saying, I think your viewpoint is heavily reliant on me flipping scum, and that's not going to happen. I'm trying to either break you out of a bad tunnel or unmask how flimsy your view of the game is for the rest of the town.

[VP Baltar]

And why are you so intent on breaking me out of a bad tunnel? Weren't you SR'ing me like a minute ago? So am I Town or Scum?

I did not say I was scum reading you. I honestly don't know your alignment. I think you've had some pretty garbage pushes and general takes, but that doesn't guarantee you are scum.

[VP Baltar]

I think you've had some pretty garbage pushes and general takes, but that doesn't guarantee you are scum.

Be more specific. Outside of me pushing you now, which obviously you'll call garbage, what else have I done that has been bad in terms of general takes?

Your reaction to the GC claim. Your "hunt on wagon" malarkey. Your reaction to the Dunn wagon at the start of the day.

[VP Baltar]

My point is that your opinion on dunn doesn't logically flow.

Now, people say illogical things all the time. I certainly do. But if someone came in the thread and had Dunn listed near the top of their town reads list, you can believe I'd be suspicious of that person given how that is clashing with my viewpoint as a town member.

Can you clarify to me why you have Momrangal as lockTown again?

Because Battle Mage was obvtown.

[VP Baltar]

So my "hunt on wagon" is not malarkey. And in fact, my top two SRs at this stage are both players that landed on Italiano. So how is that malarkey, exactly?

Yeah man. Very recent development indeed.

[VP Baltar]

And what is wrong with my reaction to the Dunn wagon?

You acted like he was going to get yeeted in a matter of just a few posts, which was highly unlikely. Further, it wasn't like you scumhunted those folks at all. So yeah, your reaction was not great.

[VP Baltar]

Why not just ignore me then?

I mean, you're trying to yeet me...

If you're town, I'm going to get you to get your shit together. If you're scum, I'm not going to sit here and let you control the game.

[VP Baltar]

You acted like he was going to get yeeted in a matter of just a few posts, which was highly unlikely.

Wait, maybe I misremember it. Wasn't Dunn at E-1? What was so unlikely about them potentially getting executed quickly?

I think it was E-2.

[VP Baltar]

RLotus, Elements/DGB, Duchess/Cookie Monster, and myself have all complained and detailed the shiftiness, opportunism, and mis-representation that VPB has been engaging in. I

Lotus, elements and duchess all got undercut when I started putting context around the posts they were citing. Elements went so far as to basically apologize for promoting bullshit.

I am certain you are doing the exact same. I don't know why people think they are going to wall me to death this game and can just say "VPB is shifty!"

Like seriously, just saying the same thing over and over doesn't make it true. It's such a lazy attack in the first place, and second, when I asked the very people you said I was manipulating, none of them agreed with you.

This is the equivalent of saying, "VPB, tell us when you stopped kicking puppies?"

I never kicked a puppy. Either come with some actual evidence, or stop gaslighting me by saying I'm shifty. I've made multiple giant posts stating all my reads and thought processes. I couldn't be any more transparent.

[VP Baltar]

I'll just put this out there for now:

Town
{ItalianoVD [Town Neapolitan], RTP [Vanilla Town]}
Strong Lean Town
{ }
Lean Town
{RLotus, Datisi, Duchess/Cookie Monster [Loyal Roaming Doctor Claim]}
Slight Lean Town
{Lunar Martian/midwaybear [Vanilla Town Claim], Green Crayons [Neighborizer], Elements/DGB}
Neutral
{Dunnstral}
Slight Lean Scum
{Harumi Ayasato/maxwell, Testarossa/Battle Mage/Momrangal}
Lean Scum
{VPBaltar}

Lol this is the most "keeping my options open" list I've seen in a while. You have NO strong town reads at this point.


WEEEE WOOOO ALERT ALERT

[VP Baltar]

If I am wrong, so be it. I guess the only thing I can only say about myself is that I am trying to figure things out.

Why are you apologizing for a misyeet already? Especially one you claim to be super confident in.

[VP Baltar]

Also, Dunn is in his neutral pile after he flipped a shit the scum were railroading Dunn. Hahahahha

[VP Baltar]

I’m looking for others to react.

I can tell by the way you are kissing Lotus' butt there.


I'd rather not have to waste the last two days of deadline dunking on this garbage wall.

Why do you think midway is town again?

[VP Baltar]

Lol this is the most "keeping my options open" list I've seen in a while. You have NO strong town reads at this point.

Instead of making a clearly bad assumption, why don’t you ask me what the categories mean? When I place someone on the “Strong Town Read” category, that’s a ride or die. That’s a “I’m never going back on that read this game”. I only place players there when the evidence is overwhelming. We’re not there yet.

Cool story.

[VP Baltar]

Remember everyone, Strong Lean Town = basically confirmed by night actions.

Confused yet?

[VP Baltar]

Nah if you’re going to engage me like this, I will ignore your questions thanks.

Sure whatever excuse you need to not answer why you think midway is town.

[VP Baltar]

but something tells me neither or them are gonna hear it

I agree with you and I'm intentionally not responding to his wall because it is a huge distraction 2 days from deadline. I certainly have THOUGHTS, but I've tried to keep my response why this is dumb concise.

All we need to be doing right now is yeeting midway.

[VP Baltar]

Andres, why is midway town?

[VP Baltar]

I'm not voting Dunn. We are yeeting midway today.

I would love if people would stop gaslighting me as well. It is really annoying.

[VP Baltar]

I'm not voting Dunn. We are yeeting midway today.

I would love if people would stop gaslighting me as well. It is really annoying.

You think midway is more likely scum than dunn now?

Yeah. I think my wagon analysis of italiano points heavily to midway as scum there.

I do think if midway flips scum, dunn's vote D1 is worth looking at, but when I went back and compared Dunn's play here vs. te game we were scum together, he was right that he was more aggressive that game than here.

Not saying I love his play this game, but it was enough for me to question myself.

The sudden brakes on the midway wagon also gives me a sense this is correct.

[VP Baltar]

The sudden brakes on the midway wagon also gives me a sense this is correct.

Meaning one of the people that left his wagon are scum or?

Certainly plausible. Andres could be chainsawing here too, idk.

I want to flip midway and figure it out from there. There is certainly no reason based on his play to not flip him

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE: VPB
I'm going to go back on this vote because VPB has been trying way too hard to be scum here. At least I won't be considering him today.

Are you saying I was trying hard after your vote and that's what changed your mind?

[VP Baltar]

Datisi, has the neighborhood been dead today?

[VP Baltar]

pedit: it hasn't been the most active. however i think that is moreso my fault for noping out of this game for 3 days, green was encouraging me to post. or maybe he was annoyed at my absence, whichever interpretation you like

I was mostly wondering about green. We can talk about that more on D3

[VP Baltar]

Are you saying I was trying hard after your vote and that's what changed your mind?

I forget when you voted me, but I was thinking about your wagon analysis specifically.

I mean, you voted me not super long after (about 200 posts) after I finished the off wagon analysis part. What made you reconsider that analysis?