Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[Dunnstral]

So the amish tell is when you badmouth your predecessors actions, but that's not what you do here

The Amish tell is when the replacement show's high levels of awareness of what their predecessor is doing while not having much of a handle of the game state. Its more than just bad mouthing the predecessor and the tell includes seemingly notable opinion on what their predec was doing. The idea is that scum are most likely going to iso their predecessor to see how messed up they are

I don't agree with your definition of Amish tell

Just know that I was referencing it with the definition I described and my question to you was wondering what you were doing

It was not 'getting ready to push you'

[Dunnstral]

Spoiler: Amish Tell Definition Source

Subject: Open 193 - Friends and Enemies: It's over!

@VP: To clarify; the difference is what happens after the reread that I didn't take into account before. Skimming posts for questions and answers (which was the failure); or criticism.

Jazzmyn
Scien
ABR (hi!)
yours truly

That's just ones that I've caught/remembered specifically.

For those of you that don't know what's going on; I've basically come up with a scumtell that if you *criticize* who you replaced in; you're scum. This is a refinement from what I had it (if you read your replacement at all you were scum); but this seems to cover all the instances where I've seen/remember it. If you're town, you really don't have to worry about your predecessor as you know they're town; but if you think that they're scummy; then you're scum. As town, you know that you're not scummy and don't deserve criticism at all.

Might be something to be said about VP knowing that momrangal is making an incorrect argument and ignoring? I'm not sure.

[Andresvmb]

that said i'm still not satisfied with your response. if you don't have me as scum, why was your reaction so (for a lack of a better word) sour in 1779 when talking about me?

I’m sour because if you’re not Scum, it’s someone you TR and they’re hiding behind you. And I find this whole situation somewhat annoying because the odds of me not just pointing who that is but then convincing enough people to trust me here are just... not great. I guess I’m already annoyed at how difficult I see the path ahead? But haha it is what it is I suppose. Though VPB saying I’m full of shit I believe is a decent start.

[Andresvmb]

Aight I’m done. Make it happen max, so I can finally end this day.

if he had something to claim, he would have already.

Not claiming.

it was literally a couple of posts above your vote on midway

i don't think it's fair to say "not my fault nobody cared" when it's kinda obvious you didn't *try* to convince anyone

Are you really arguing that Dunn had a strong enough voice D1 to direct what was going to happen? That seems misguided to me.

[Andresvmb]

Like how can you possibly know they’re both Scum? And that Dunn decided to land on midwaybear at the end of the day for “future Town cred”? Why are you so willing to give all of the early Italiano pushers a pass? Is it because you were one of them too?

This is such a bad post, btw.

I never said I know for a fact midway and dunn are scum. I offered a theory that I think makes a lot of sense. The shade at the end of your post is also completely unfounded. I never gave a free pass to people on that wagon, nor am I asking for a free pass. You're making an awful lot of innuendo with zero reason other than...

*Checks notes*

..I still think my top scum read is scum.

Meh. I think you’re being overly confrontational here. I don’t trust that the same set of folks that lead to nowhere are going to lead somewhere this time around. And that makes me suspicious why? So Italiano not being to point to exactly who was Scum on their wagon wasn’t enough proof that maybe, just maybe, Town have a feeling when they’re being pushed in bad faith but can’t exactly point to who?

[Andresvmb]

I counter by asking you who else was a viable yeet? As someone who tried to get traction other places, I assure you it was not easy.

If I remember correctly, deadline wasn’t some hours away. There was more than a full day left. My point is that with enough discussion, you never know what can happen. And there had been multiple votes for Green Crayons and RLotus even. Are you dismissing every other wagon that day as not viable? Because that seems laughable to me.

[Andresvmb]

So Italiano not being to point to

Not being able to*

[Andresvmb]

why is this day not over

I’m going to be completely honest. I hate this post. I really do. It reminds me of every time I see impatient Scum in games that don’t want the wagon to move anywhere else. It’s really too bad I’m not good enough at this game to say this with any confidence.

[VP Baltar]

Spoiler: Amish Tell Definition Source

Subject: Open 193 - Friends and Enemies: It's over!

@VP: To clarify; the difference is what happens after the reread that I didn't take into account before. Skimming posts for questions and answers (which was the failure); or criticism.

Jazzmyn
Scien
ABR (hi!)
yours truly

That's just ones that I've caught/remembered specifically.

For those of you that don't know what's going on; I've basically come up with a scumtell that if you *criticize* who you replaced in; you're scum. This is a refinement from what I had it (if you read your replacement at all you were scum); but this seems to cover all the instances where I've seen/remember it. If you're town, you really don't have to worry about your predecessor as you know they're town; but if you think that they're scummy; then you're scum. As town, you know that you're not scummy and don't deserve criticism at all.

Might be something to be said about VP knowing that momrangal is making an incorrect argument and ignoring? I'm not sure.

Haha, if you are bringing me into a debate on something that happened 11 years ago, you have much more faith in my memory than I do.

I miss Amished though! Fun and smart player.

[VP Baltar]

I counter by asking you who else was a viable yeet? As someone who tried to get traction other places, I assure you it was not easy.

If I remember correctly, deadline wasn’t some hours away. There was more than a full day left. My point is that with enough discussion, you never know what can happen. And there had been multiple votes for Green Crayons and RLotus even. Are you dismissing every other wagon that day as not viable? Because that seems laughable to me.

As the person who tried to get the RLotus wagon, I think it wasn't going to happen. I tried.

Yes, things can always shift. But the game energy was very dead at that point. There wasn't exactly inspirational debate happening at the time. We also needed at least one replacement at that point, iirc, with no stopping on deadline counter.

I can go get the receipts if necessary, but I've been a pretty active player all game and I feel like I had a pretty good sense of what was or wasn't likely at that point. Obviously you may see that differently, but I definitely got some energy toward other wagons and just couldn't get them. It felt very uphill to get any kind of consensus.

[VP Baltar]

That being said, I do think GC is the scummiest of that wagon probably, so I can criticize your vote necessarily.

Fact check...GC wasn't on the italiano wagon. Not sure why I thought he waa

[VP Baltar]

Was

[VP Baltar]

So andres, comparing the Italiano wagon to the Dunn wagon, it looks like the only overlap is Datisi, Lotus and myself, right?

So you think there is definitely scum in that group who is leading a speed yeet D2?

[VP Baltar]

Spoiler: Amish Tell Definition Source

Subject: Open 193 - Friends and Enemies: It's over!

@VP: To clarify; the difference is what happens after the reread that I didn't take into account before. Skimming posts for questions and answers (which was the failure); or criticism.

Jazzmyn
Scien
ABR (hi!)
yours truly

That's just ones that I've caught/remembered specifically.

For those of you that don't know what's going on; I've basically come up with a scumtell that if you *criticize* who you replaced in; you're scum. This is a refinement from what I had it (if you read your replacement at all you were scum); but this seems to cover all the instances where I've seen/remember it. If you're town, you really don't have to worry about your predecessor as you know they're town; but if you think that they're scummy; then you're scum. As town, you know that you're not scummy and don't deserve criticism at all.

Might be something to be said about VP knowing that momrangal is making an incorrect argument and ignoring? I'm not sure.

Haha, if you are bringing me into a debate on something that happened 11 years ago, you have much more faith in my memory than I do.

I miss Amished though! Fun and smart player.

This game is such a blast from the past! This site was so different then. 57 pages for an entire game and people are just chillax debating, imagine!

[Cookie Monster]

I is alive and now will catch up

[Cookie Monster]

Spoiler: Cookie's Thoughts/Reads Cause why not

Thoughts on Italiano wagon

ok uhhh
VOTE: italiano

my levels of care are becoming lower and since i'm town on duchess anyway, i don't particularly care to wait to see who replaces them

This vote doesnt give me a good feeling...

Sure we can try there
VOTE: Italiano

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Italiano

These two votes seem too followy for my liking

VOTE: ItalianoVD
I'm subscribing to this wagon

Again dont like how you have just jumped on the wagon

VOTE: italiano

Let's go.

It’s been real my peeps. Appreciate all you do.

VOTE: ItalianoVD

You know what I dont like this wagon at all but I do think it was really strange the way Italiano reacted and that self hammer just... ew but anyway whats done is done and while I dont like the votes on the wagon it happened and the game is moving forward so onto the next thing...

Cookie's Reads List

TOWN

Andresvmb - Just seems to be genuine in all posts and really gives me the town vibes - can't really explain the feeling tbh
RLotus - I like the way they ask theor questions as it seems like they are really trying to solve the game
Momrangal - Players beforehand yes were a little scummy but I think I like this slot for a low town lean atm

NULL

Dunnstral - Seems to be a very experienced player so am going to really have a good look into ISO later because I feel this is a slot that could be scum but appear really towny
Green Crayons - Really don't know how I feel about this slot just seems really strange in the way they appear to me and its really hard to explain
Midwaybear - They seem like they are trying to solve but the vote on the Italiano wagon really doesnt sit well with me and I think its the worst
Maxwell - Don't know how I feel about them yet fully but some of their posts I think I see coming from a town perspective more than scum but alas I could be wrong and that has me really paranoid

SCUM

Elements - Can't help but feel this slot has scum slipped.... 734 and then this I think is the slip 901 and their votes going everywhere seems to me more like a scummy thing to do as it seems like they are trying to find a wagon that everyone can support to get them eliminated. The only thing I can give them on the up-side was that they wern't on the stupid Italiano wagon
Datisi - I dont really know if I like their posts.. Something seems either forced or just not right to me
VP Baltar - Don't like their posts at all. I dont like how they dont really seem to be solving just asking questions and throwing votes around to make it seem like they are doing something and looking busy enough to stay out of the spotlight...

After all that...
VOTE: VP Baltar

[Elements]

lol
Cookie Monster's "read list" is a scum claim
VOTE: Cookie Monster

[Cookie Monster]

What makes it a scum claim?

[Dunnstral]

Dunnstral - Seems to be a very experienced player so am going to really have a good look into ISO later because I feel this is a slot that could be scum but appear really towny

Weird takeaway

[VP Baltar]

Cookie, how many games of mafia have you completed?

[Datisi]

I think midway looks bad and vp baltar's push coming into day 2 looks bad

And that there's probably scum who jumped on me today

why does baltar's push today look bad? (i'm assuming you're talking the one on you)

who is scum jumping on you?

Are you really arguing that Dunn had a strong enough voice D1 to direct what was going to happen? That seems misguided to me.

no, i'm not arguing that. i'm arguing that at no point dunn even tried to influence what was happening in the game. there were question thrown at them, there were opportunities to get their voice heard on d1, i don't mean just at the eod stretch, it was throughout the whole day. what i specifically referred to that is dunn saying he liked something italiano did while the wagon was forming there - it's one barebonish line, and then again disappearence. it'd be weird to expect people to actually follow you on that when you're not trying, obviously. but i think going "well lol not my fault they weren't listening to me" is scummy. it feels like he didn't actually *want* to convince anyone, that he was willing to let the wagon build without interference, then go with the "i told you so, not my fault y'all didn't listen to me" lines.

I counter by asking you who else was a viable yeet? As someone who tried to get traction other places, I assure you it was not easy.

If I remember correctly, deadline wasn’t some hours away. There was more than a full day left. My point is that with enough discussion, you never know what can happen. And there had been multiple votes for Green Crayons and RLotus even. Are you dismissing every other wagon that day as not viable? Because that seems laughable to me.

there is something rubbing me the wrong way about this, considering you were quick to yell at me yesterday when i was voting maxwell because "that wagon wasn't happening, we need to consolidate because it's majority, you're being anti-town by being on a 1-2 vote wagon". also like, at that point the game was pretty dead, with the day going for like 14 days.

[Datisi]

actually hold on, weren't you arguing against deadline flashwagons too or something?

[Datisi]

last minute wagons can materialize and hit scum idm datisi voting his heart

I have yet to see a CFD in this forum lead to Scum I have to say. But there’s always room for a surprise.

Obviously it’s not going to fail every time. But it always feels random to me. It leaves the game at the mercy of the most active players, and if you have good Scum, it leads to some bad conclusions typically.

hmm.

i have an idea right now but it's best explored later. anyway.

[Datisi]

@elements you haven't responded to me about your louts read

cookie's readslist feels awfully forced. i feel like the reads description was copy/pasted 10 times over because (other than the elements one) i feel like none of them are actually saying anything.

why/how are those posts from elements a scumslip?

[VP Baltar]

last minute wagons can materialize and hit scum idm datisi voting his heart

I have yet to see a CFD in this forum lead to Scum I have to say. But there’s always room for a surprise.

Obviously it’s not going to fail every time. But it always feels random to me. It leaves the game at the mercy of the most active players, and if you have good Scum, it leads to some bad conclusions typically.

hmm.

i have an idea right now but it's best explored later. anyway.

Way to dangle something interesting and then take it away!

I'm fine with later, but when is later? Today?