Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[Andresvmb]

Why are you being so aggressive Andres? I don't recall you acting in this manner at all Iin bears.

I am simply trying to clarify this muddled view of the game I have. And the only way I know how to do it is by putting people on edge, pushing hard. If I thought there were others that were correctly viewing the game and my slot, and were probing aggressively, I wouldn’t feel the need to do it. I would take the role that I like better - which is to from the background a bit express my point of view. Here I’m having to dig for it, and I’m not comfortable in that position. And I’m also getting a lot of the questions and skepticism from the leading voices in the game. And if Dunn flips Town, it’s not going to get easier.

[Momrangal]

Bears was murky waters for both of us as well though. That explanation doesn't make sensw

[Datisi]

I did this exact play as a friendly neighbor when Datisi and Iconeum were hardcore town locked in a recent game.

Or was it the inverse? I can't remember

it was the inverse. and we were not, ico hadn't even posted at the time you sent him the message. also i started scumreading him as soon as he was posting and askdlkfh

what were were talking about again

He didn't push duchess as a scumread at all and I'm not sure what you're seeing there exactly.

thonk

No, really, I went back to Baltars ISO and...he didn't call Duchess scum or vote there.

i know. i vividly remember chatting with baltar about that and us agreeing that duchess' push is probably townie. the joke is that i have asked momrangal about that part of her reads not once, but twice now, and i'm still getting ignored.

I could vote Dunn since his vote on GC was that bad, could still see it coming from town, but would be shocked, shocked if {Dunn, midway, mom} contains 0 scum

*cough* dunno if 2062 got lost in the crossfire *cough*

Great. Anything useful to add?

lol why so aggressive?

pedit: oh lovely. mind talking about your read on baltar-easy-pushing-duchess?

[Cookie Monster]

I forgot about this not gonna lie

[Elements]

I forgot about this not gonna lie

was literally about to say just this

[VP Baltar]

Glad you both remembered. Let's hear those takes

[Cookie Monster]

I have to read and catch up but I’m at work right now and will work on that later

[Momrangal]

I thought of a way to make this real easy for you, VP.

GC also felt a bit townie, but the aggression on both sides of that dispute makes me suspicious.

Makes you suspicious of what exactly?

Let me be more to-the-point. Are you saying you're suspicious of us both being scum? If that's what this means then that's the answer to my question, and I don't understand your aversion to having that on record in your ISO. Otherwise I have no idea what you're getting at and I need an explanation.

This is literally from 30 or so pages ago. Are you asking me if I think you both could be scum now or then?

When I wrote it, I was saying that the aggression coming from each of you pinged me because it was so heightened for early game. As I said the first time you asked me this, the question for me was whether the aggression you guys were putting out was real or manufactured, and if the latter, who was manufacturing it? This was all in the answer you got originally and I don't know what you are confused about.

You're being similarly aggressive throughout this line of questioning. Saying things like "you probably don't want this in your ISO", when you're just having me repeat the same fucking answer you got on page 14.

Let me make something clear: you are the one putting emphasis on the "caught". I said I caught them online like how you catch the last half of your favourite movie on Showtime, or when you tell a friend you'll catch 'em later. For some reason you are latching onto that detail and running a mile with it, making it out like I claimed to have caught Al Capone.

Lol oh really.

Here is the heart of your statement in Post 989.

[Elements] fled when I caught them online and addressed them directly after already ignoring 2 of my questions in a row and drawing the ire of my vote, all while continuing to interact with my wagon from the sidelines. Elements has admitted to deliberately ignoring me. I voiced a great deal of frustration about it.

You write several sentences about this fight with elements and how you had him on the ropes, and WHY OH WHY DIDN'T VP CONSIDER THAT WHEN HE TALKED TO RTP!!!!!

To now say, after I spent a bunch of time looking back at this, that you were actually just telling a friend "catch you later", is complete garbage.

I'm not going to wall war you, so this is the last thing I'm saying on this topic, but you are either tunneled so far up your own ass you won't be seeing daylight until 2050, or your scum who thinks you're going to score cheap points off someone. Either way, you look pretty useless.

I continued to try to directly engage Elements and eventually tried to rally for pressure votes. There is only so much you can do on an online forum to get someone's attention. I didn't have any sort of big angry emotional post or anything because I was trying to get them to respond, not scare them out of the thread. But it was extremely frustrating to me in the moment.

Last thing I'll say on this, is this is a hilarious walkback after I pressed you for the actual specifics -- like I asked you for the posts -- you said I missed.

Hell, I even said to you I might have missed something!

But when asked what I should have saw beyond a post where you said "elements, post 225", you tell me you didn't actually have any big angry posts I should have seen because you didn't want to scare them out of the thread.


*Farting noises commence*

Largely, I wasnt fond of the way he is attacking her here when he explicitly stated that she was a null read. There were also a few more in his iso where he is straight up diminishing her value as a person and as a player some examples that caught my eye were these posts.

That's a very spicy take indeed.

do you have an opinion on it?

It seems a little reachy to me. Duchess made a fair point questioning Elements' reads list.

Duchess probably is reaching on Testa, but her style as town is fairly verbose, so I can see someone being thrown by that. It is all a bit early to tell what is smoke and what is fire.

Don't put words in my mouth. I don't like the preemptive defensiveness here one bit.

Boo hoo.

I'm trying to figure out a reason why town!duchess would make such a wonky and pointless argument.

Spoiler:

Don't put words in my mouth. I don't like the preemptive defensiveness here one bit.

Boo hoo.

I'm trying to figure out a reason why town!duchess would make such a wonky and pointless argument.

See 225, Elements.

You're saying this post is where you "caught" elements lurking?

"Absent" implies absolutely nothing except that they were not posting. This could be lurking, real life issues, whatever. But there was never any ambiguity about their absence. They fled when I caught them online and addressed them directly after already ignoring 2 of my questions in a row and drawing the ire of my vote, all while continuing to interact with my wagon from the sidelines. Elements has admitted to deliberately ignoring me. I voiced a great deal of frustration about it. If you're willing to throw out a completely uninformed comment like that, then I cannot trust any other stances you take, minor as it may be. From the rest of your posting, though, and the way you approached RTP in that one post, I would much sooner believe that an unsubstantiated claim like that comes from scum trying to shake things up rather than town who simply missed 100% of the context around another slot and still chose to comment on it anyway.

I honestly don't remember you "catching" elements lurking or whatever. I'll be real with you though: you write a lot of words to say very little, so it's possible I skimmed some bullshit from you that looked boring. My bad.

If you'd like to reiterate your elements case, I'm listening.

This is all mis-representation of what Duchess was saying and then completely ignoring Duchess' responses where his points are disproved. He just keeps of with the same line of thought that's just not true.

Oh this is fascinating. I'm actually enjoying people jumping on me because there are absolutely scum making bad life choices in this mix.

Duchess' posts are a fucking incoherent mess. Without quoting duchess, I would like you to please tell me the nature of the argument duchess is making and what I'm ignoring about it. I want to see you state this originally, since you say it is very clear.

At the same time, I Isoed VPB now and like, with the most recent claim I'm doing a conditional 180 on their slot

[Momrangal]

If I'm doing a read lists about now, it would look like

Town tiers
Dunn

Datisi
Green crayon
VPB

--0--

Null

Elements
Cookie Monster
RLotus
Midway bear

Scum tires

Andre's

Maxwell

---0---

[VP Baltar]

diminishing her value as a person

What?

[VP Baltar]

I'm very confused how dunn is your strongest town read

[Momrangal]

I basically don't like how you have so much more to say about a supposed null lean town read than a strong scum read. BUT I caught something early day one and I maybe expecting some results from what I've seen

[VP Baltar]

I basically don't like how you have so much more to say about a supposed null lean town read than a strong scum read. BUT I caught something early day one and I maybe expecting some results from what I've seen

I mean, reading back over those posts, I can say I was definitely annoyed with the way duchess was playing throughout the game, which came across to me as simultaneously disengaged and hyper aggressive.

As much as I think Dunn could be scum here, he is pretty calm and doesn't aggressively misinterpret game statements.

I also acknowledge your perspective is likely very different since you weren't involved in real time.

Anyhow, just seemed a weird thing to say.

[VP Baltar]

Momrangal, can I get your bullet points on maxwell? I know you were suspicious of Harumi, but can I get your points on maxwell specifically?

[Momrangal]

Most of what I gleamed when I got to maxwell posts was that he's mostly doing a ton of IIOA, offering a bunch of his opinions on matters but not actually figuring out the mindset. He mostly going "hey guys I'm here!" And I can't even make head or tails on who he actually thinks about the game state and the people in the game

[VP Baltar]

Let's talk a little off wagon analysis from D1:

maxwell(1): Green Crayons
Green Crayons (1): Andresvmb
midwaybear (1): Dunnstral
Elements (1): Battle Mage
VP Baltar (1): Duchess
RLotus (1): Elements

Alright, first off, looking at how scattered this off wagon stuff is difficult. My gut tells me scum were avoiding the Italiano wagon, in part, because there was really no consolidation elsewhere. I'm mostly looking for consistency in reads here and generally unlikelihood that the vote was shift the game state away from Italiano in those final hours.

Green Crayons:

GC definitely talks about Harumi suspicion off and on, and gets into with RTP a little bit over RTP's towntell on Harumi.

GC's maxwell vote comes about two days before deadline, citing his dissatisfaction with the Italiano wagon. There are a couple posts where he asks if people will join a maxwell speed wagon after his vote. So, some follow up, but it's not hugely convincing.

Dunn

I generally agree with what Datisi has said here. The vote on midway was extremely last minute and came out of nowhere. Arguably his prior vote on Elements had a more likely chance of succeeding at that point. It just felt like a move that was devoid of town motivation to get an actual Italiano alternative.

Andres

Andres' progression on GC yesterday isn't SUPER clear, but he shifts from a null read on GC to a vote over this post:

I'm still here on RTP. Come back. It's warm and cozy. Or how about maxwell for lazily riding RTP's coattails in pushing a GC vote on weaksauce theory, after RTP early called his slot town.

Yeah I would nuke this too.

There is definitely follow up and a little bit of sparing with GC after the vote ( which happened several days before deadline), plus follow up today. This vote doesn't feel like a forced avoidance of Italiano.

I will say on reread, I still hate this post though because it feels like TMI:

Are you asking me why I'm not voting him right now?

more or less, yeah.

People are smart they’ll figure it out.

so you *are* being bussed, thanks!

I really hope Italiano is Scum, only because if not, these sorts of posts are going to look so Scummy in retrospect.

Momrangal (Battle Mage)

The vote on elements first happens like a week before deadline and BM definitely follows up on it, sparing with Elements pretty aggressively. Then we get a cycle of votes through various people and the toxic fight with RTP.

BM kind of checks out after that fight and votes elements again two days before deadline before lurking out. BM also had Italiano as "locktown" from super early on.

Given I also had a town read on the BM slot, I really don't think this is scum off wagon.

Duchess (Cookie Monster)

This is impossible to judge. Duchess voted me well before deadline and got into a poorly articulated wall fight with me after lurking for a long time. My gut here is probably still town, and they were falling behind without reading much of the context of the game.

I can definitely say this vote wasn't meant as an easy sluff off the Italiano wagon though, as Duchess wasn't really around enough for that to be true.

Elements

Elements is probably on the scummier side of these off wagon votes.

They first vote Lotus around three days before deadline after they first attacked me in the VP/Duchess interaction...which IIRC was an offshoot of the Lotus case on me. When I attacked the Lotus case and explained why it was bunk, Elements then had Lotus at the bottom of their scumlist with maxwell. I found that slightly strange.

Elements then unvotes Lotus for maxwell, and then flops back very last minute.

@elements why are you voting lotus now?

I don't think anyone I want to vote out is getting voted out and I don't want any of the people it looks like are going to be voted out to be voted out. I also liked maxewll's most recent catch up

why is this day not over

That's Elements' explanation for the Lotus vote and follow up.

They could be very disengaged town here, but it is obvious they are also not really trying to get their preferred wagon for the day and are fine with Italiano as an outcome despite Italiano being one of their top tier town reads.

[VP Baltar]

Most of what I gleamed when I got to maxwell posts was that he's mostly doing a ton of IIOA, offering a bunch of his opinions on matters but not actually figuring out the mindset. He mostly going "hey guys I'm here!" And I can't even make head or tails on who he actually thinks about the game state and the people in the game

He's definitely a little bit wallpaper. I don't know if I find him super scummy personally given I could say that about several players (Cookie Monster, Elements, etc)

[VP Baltar]

So yeah:

Dunn-elements would be my top picks for scum off wagon if I'm purely looking for people who were fine with the Italiano yeet without being on it.

[maxwell]

Most of what I gleamed when I got to maxwell posts was that he's mostly doing a ton of IIOA, offering a bunch of his opinions on matters but not actually figuring out the mindset. He mostly going "hey guys I'm here!" And I can't even make head or tails on who he actually thinks about the game state and the people in the game

None of what I've done is IIOA, that's a pure buzzword statement that doesn't even apply to me. Accuse me of having weak reads or being underwhelming, IIOA? Get the absolute hell out of here with that garbage.

[maxwell]

At the same time, I Isoed VPB now and like, with the most recent claim I'm doing a conditional 180 on their slot

What on earth does the claim have to do with Baltar?

[VP Baltar]

Where is midway?

[midwaybear]

Present. I'll give some thoughts later, but can answer any questions.

[VP Baltar]

Present. I'll give some thoughts later, but can answer any questions.

When is later?

[Momrangal]

That's pretty eerie

[midwaybear]

Ideally less than prod range. I need to figure out where to place my vote. Not sure what to think of the claim, but Andres pushing on it so weirdly was enough for an unvote.