Mini Normal 2291: Greentexts | Mafia Wins!

[Crescent]

I'm a kitty.

Meow.

[Crescent]

VOTE: dragoneater70

don't eat dragons, that's mean

What if dragons taste good?

[Crescent]

VOTE: geraintm

Youve caight me i am scum

VOTE: RedFF

Red's start is weak and I'm going to give Kowbunga a little space. I still believe Kowabunga's start (and subsequent response to me) is +scum I'm just trying to give them a chance first.


@

Red

I need to see something from you, Red, which doesn't ping me as scum.

VOTE: Clone

Scum found.

no no no no, its one of my many clones that could be scum you are looking for. Mr 23563

It would help me a bit to see a response to Clone from BBT.

Kow's response comes off as more "annoyed" to me than something actively scummy. Like he's probing to see if he should even take you seriously.

Clone's first posts feel worse. First one feels a little unnatural, but the second one gives me some ping. It's a dismissive, useless post 7 minutes after he gets voted. I feel like that post only exists because someone voted him, and he felt he had to respond with something, but had nothing of substance to respond with.

[Crescent]

Damnit there goes my plan to ask him what dragons taste like.

Even if the answer is probably just "chicken".

[Crescent]

RedFF it would be great if you have some follow up to that naked vote because I'm getting major scum pings from you already.

VOTE: geraintm

Side note: After giving it some thought, this post obviously trolling a legitimate inquiry from FK so early actually kinda townpings me. It's something you don't often see scum do, though I don't know the specific player. I would say the scum equity is higher if at least one of Gera or Red are scum.

[Crescent]

Actually I would say FK being scum could also increase the scum equity (but by not as much) because it's potentially a cheap way to create distance between the two. Regardless, will need to see more posts from there. Anyways no one else is posting right now and I'm about to go to work so that's swell.

In any case, I find myself rather neutral on Red as far, as alignment goes. Red feels like he could be scum jumping in early, but he also feels like he can be lazy town who doesn't give a ****, and I'm not sure which it is yet. Red's posts vibe as totally dismissive and not trying yet.

Clone's two posts give vibes like he's trying too hard, by forcing himself to post when he feels he has to post *something*, because he doesn't know what to say.

Scum often find it hard to transition into a game, and I find early game awkwardness to have a fair amount of scum AI. (I'm interested to see what Ceph and especially Gera's second posts look like, for example).

[Crescent]

On a personal side note before I head to work, I don't Pedit. It's not a thing where I come from, so if there's a post preview, I'll only read it after I've already made my post. It's the way I'm used to playing.

[Crescent]

-crescent's post delves multiple layers deep into a post that's literally just a joke
-frog explicitly says he's not reading that much into it, and i'm not either - just happy with that spot for my vote on page 2, although this reaction certainly doesn't make me feel worse about it

On break for a moment, I'll read the next page later.

That post was 7 minutes after he got voted, he has provided no content to speak of the first ~24 hours of the game, and he doesn't have a post since then. It feels like a weak defense to just dismiss it as a joke - I want to see something from him of substance.

[Crescent]

RedFF it would be great if you have some follow up to that naked vote because I'm getting major scum pings from you already.

VOTE: geraintm

Side note: After giving it some thought, this post obviously trolling a legitimate inquiry from FK so early actually kinda townpings me. It's something you don't often see scum do, though I don't know the specific player. I would say the scum equity is higher if at least one of Gera or Red are scum.

if you don't think this is a joke then you probably didn't get the joke

maybe im just confused as to what you're referring to tbh, you're so deep in layers that i don't even understand what you're talking about in this post and the followup to it x3

This feels very fake. The entire argument is "posting a deflecting joke immediately after being voted for, then peacing out of the game for a long time, is scum AI. I wish to see more posts from him." This is pretty cut and dry.

You seem to be going out of your way to drastically conflate what I'm actually saying with all this nonsense talk about "layers". It feels like a very hard deflection relative to a minimal amount of pressure being put on him.

[Crescent]

Crappy work internet ate my last post, but the former.

[Crescent]

I took the first part of post 46 as an indirect defense of Clone responding with a joke, and didn't pay attention to the post he was quoting since it was a less direct train of thought of mine. As it stands, Elements starting play still has some +Town Value to me, but it seems I never actually mentioned Clone by name in my later responses to Cephir. The first one to actually mention Clone was BBT when he made his comment. It's.. Possible the exchange over the past couple of hours was a miscommunication because he thought I was talking about Elements and I thought he was talking about Clone.

Elements has already voted more times than I likely will all day, but some people are like that and that part isn't AI.

[Crescent]

All I really said was post 27 townpinged me because it feels like something scum generally doesn't do early, but that feeling is diminished a bit if there's scum among people in the small affected radius.

[Crescent]

Good night, biancospino, and thank you for writing 111. I should have my questions up by tomorrow morning.

All I really said was post 27 townpinged me because it feels like something scum generally doesn't do early, but that feeling is diminished a bit if there's scum among people in the small affected radius.

I thought you were pretty clear, FWIW, that analysis was the main reason I Town leaned you. Have you been able to discern anything about Kowabunga or redFF's alignment?

I have effectively nothing to say about Red. His type annoys me, but I'm also used to it. I assumed he had a reason to vote Gera when he did, and... Apparently he didn't, which makes all 10 of his posts deliberately meaningless. He doesn't done anything AI to me yet and I already think getting a read on him is going to be painful.

There is some scum equity with Kow. I was alright with his response to you early in the game, because as stated earlier, I found it sounding more "annoyed" than scummy. Kow's countervote didn't bug me because it kind of felt like a he had a line of logic he was probing for a response on, but in re-reading it I'm confused. I at no point ever "reached" anything against FK, so I want to know where this idea came from.

The thing that nags at me here is the progression. Kow hasn't really done anything but respond to you and Cephir voting for him. I feel like the 4 posts following Cephir voting him (#45, #47, #59, and #63) are virtually identical, and he has essentially ignored everyone else in the game. It took a little bit to put how I feel into words, but his effort so far feels like it's some kind of mirage.

On a sidebar I have nothing to say about JV not being here. My only experience with JV was when they were a day 2 replacement in the first game I played on this site.

[Crescent]

I recall BBT looking like this day 1 in the last game I played with him. He was town in that game, but I've never seen him play as scum. There isn't much to say.

The disparity I find interesting is in #120 and in #124. In #120, Frog asks me for my opinion on Red and Kow, who are people I hadn't said much about. in #124, Clone immediately uses the fact that I haven't felt a reason to talk about BBT as an excuse for a scumread. The difference is FK feels like he's trying to build a better picture of the game, which is town-slanted thinking. Clone feels like he's trying to throw dirt at anyone who's displayed a scumlean towards him, which isn't.

I do find it... Interesting that he effectively confirmed the reason for my early scumlean on him was accurate (lurking and immediately posting a joke response to a vote, before disappearing for most of a day), while at the same time shading me for having it.

@

bianco

@

geraintm

@

Elements

Can I get your professional assessment on Clone?

#slimshady

It is day 1, I've mot read any of their posts and I am 100% certain they are scum. I once found scum on day 1 and this is proof that I cam successfully divine someone's scum status now

Do you have anything tangible to share on anyone?

[Crescent]

Oh and for anyone who doesn't know me with Day 1 being potentially 10 days long it's unlikely I will place a vote before a week has passed and it's also unlikely I'll vote any more than twice

I'm off to Synagogue

[Crescent]

I just ISOed Kow's first 25 or so posts in the game FK brought up and I have an opinion here but I want to see how he answers FK before I say any more.

BBT replaced town during day 2 in 2273 and played it like he did in that game you referenced and it got him voted off the same day. He voted for like half the game at some point.

I'd stop short of saying I town read him (Your summation of "I guess I'm leaning town right now" essentially echoes my thoughts), but the way he's played so far reminds me of the game I referenced earlier (I don't remember the number, this was around the time COVID hit me) more than it resembles the game you linked to.

[Crescent]

I'm not loving 129.

Too much certainty for my tastes. Could be play style tho.

I feel like if anyone was acting "too certain", it was Clone in #124. #129 looks more like it's a breakdown of questions and observations. Why do you feel bianco seemed "too certain"?

[Crescent]

Red, what is your reason for voting Clone?

Gera's vote town vibes me. There's a contradiction I noticed in Clone's behavior that I believe Gera is pointing out.

I don't want to elaborate further without a reason from Red first though.

[Crescent]

I believe redFF is most likely town. He's staying down-low but tends to be actively curious and is asking

this description of my play pinged me hard. i haven't been doing jack shit. i have not been "actively curious and is asking"

Oh ok that's fair I missed that little tidbit. Both times I've been asked to comment on you I've had nothing to say because you've done nothing of note. To describe you that way is nonsensical at best.

The reason Gera's vote townpings me is simple: It cuts to a specific spot and calls out the heart of the contradiction I had already noticed. I say I scumlean Clone, and I get into a tiff with Cephir because I mistakenly think he's jumping to Clone's defense. This gets cleared up and the simple matter remains that I scumlean Clone, and I want to see him post more. Clone's response is to call it "excessive" and say I should be voting him, and he immediately calls both BBT and myself scum with far more certainly I ever called him scum.

...So why isn't he voting for either of us, who he supposedly strongly scum reads, when his primary argument on me seems to hinge from the fact that I never voted him based on a simple scumlean?

[Crescent]

Red, what is your reason for voting Clone?

Gera's vote town vibes me. There's a contradiction I noticed in Clone's behavior that I believe Gera is pointing out.

I don't want to elaborate further without a reason from Red first though.

i'm not reading gera as town right now so i'm annoyed by this post for townreading him based on an assumption of what he meant to say but actually didn't

also kinda wild that you asked only red about the reason for his vote when you could have also asked gera and had whatever thought process you're having confirmed or denied. you know what happens when you assume

It's the specific part of where Gera voted based on that I like. He voted Clone based on his words contradicting his actions.

[Crescent]

Red, what is your reason for voting Clone?

Gera's vote town vibes me. There's a contradiction I noticed in Clone's behavior that I believe Gera is pointing out.

I don't want to elaborate further without a reason from Red first though.

i'm not reading gera as town right now so i'm annoyed by this post for townreading him based on an assumption of what he meant to say but actually didn't

also kinda wild that you asked only red about the reason for his vote when you could have also asked gera and had whatever thought process you're having confirmed or denied. you know what happens when you assume

It's the specific part of where Gera voted based on that I like. He voted Clone based on his words contradicting his actions.

How do you know?

Because I've played with Gera enough (this guy has been in almost every game I've played on the site), and he isn't great at explaining his votes regardless of his alignment. It's +town EV for him that he pointed out that specific part when he voted instead of reposting the entire thing. By his standards, that's showing genuine thought behind placing a vote.

[Crescent]

By the way isn't it past time to kick out the couple of people who never showed up and get some fresh blood in here?

[Crescent]

My Kowahbunga read can be condensed into a single word:

Spoiler: spoilered to avoid biasing Crescent before they post their own read

Townahbunga

Don't see it.

#187 and #188 are about as useless as posts pretending to be content get. It basically just invents a semantical reason to throw shade on the leading vote. I see little similarity between what I've seen of him this game and the game you linked to earlier.

[Crescent]

It shows 3 people on Clone but Clone having only two votes, but I believe it is correct otherwise.

[Crescent]

It shows 3 people on Clone but Clone having only two votes, but I believe it is correct otherwise.

Well would probably be worth a discussion if one of those three can't have their vote counted or something.

I'm pretty sure such a role would be banned in normals so Occam's razor says host error.

[Crescent]

Oh and to further the point about #177 and #178, perspective slips don't really exist when it comes to nouns and pronouns. I once saw a town throw a game at lylo because someone accidentally referred to the scum team as "we" and was voted off strictly for that.

Couldn't care less that there's four interchangeable terms for not-town and he decided to use the one that people generally haven't been using this game so far.

It actually kind of bugs me a bit that FK didn't call this out because I believe he's a player that should know how meaningless the argument was.

[Crescent]

#187 and #188 are about as useless as posts pretending to be content get. It basically just invents a semantical reason to throw shade on the leading vote. I see little similarity between what I've seen of him this game and the game you linked to earlier.

I assume you mean post #186 and #187.

Post #186 was just calling you out on your false accusation about me instantly calling BBT scum; when I was targetting you and not them.

Post #187 does not in anyway throw shade on a vote.

Clone, where do you feel like Frog was setting up to vote you?

His questioning my experience on Mafia and trying to get an idea of my meta plays seem a bit shady. Feels like a false attempt to start an analysis. From his perspective, it seems inevitable that I will get voted. He leads into a minor accusation (as hes done already), which would then progress as I get pushed.

Apparently I listed the wrong numbers in my original post. That was directed at Kow's "argument" against you.

[Crescent]

Oh and to further the point about #177 and #178, perspective slips don't really exist when it comes to nouns and pronouns. I once saw a town throw a game at lylo because someone accidentally referred to the scum team as "we" and was voted off strictly for that.

Couldn't care less that there's four interchangeable terms for not-town and he decided to use the one that people generally haven't been using this game so far.

It actually kind of bugs me a bit that FK didn't call this out because I believe he's a player that should know how meaningless the argument was.

It just pings me. Cool with your input on it and happy if it doesn't ping others. Just sticks out to me because subconscious slips are a thing. They've happened before, they'll happen again. Just because you can mention one game where it was wrong to follow this logic, doesn't mean all games and situations will always be just like that.

Your last bit means more to me than your opinion on my opinions though. You thinking Frog is off for not calling out something you think he should. Do you think Frog is trying to buddy me then?

It makes me more curious as to why he says he town reads you because so far I don't see it. He effectively parlayed your post into shading the already oft-shaded #124 without commenting on the argument it was making. I find that kind of argument you made is much better at getting town voted off than it is scum since town is generally more loose with their speech than scum is.

BBT has also said it, but I don't believe he's given any explanation either.

Basically, I want an explanation of said town read because the comparison he was making between you this game and last game doesn't hold at all.

[Crescent]

It amounts to little more than a glorified gut feeling. I feel like the vote came from the right place and it town vibes me.

Quick question Elements: If you haven't caught up yet, why jump on the leading vote without a reason?

[Crescent]

On a side note our resident host confirmed town hasn't posted in a day.

Herta if you're around at all just share anything relevant you're thinking even if you think it's minor. Anything that comes from you is a plus for the town.

[Crescent]

lol town vibes you?

Yep.

I feel the way that vote was placed is more likely to come from town Gera. I made this read like what 40-50 posts ago?

This wasn't even the first time I've said a vote town vibes me. I have maintained that post #27 is a +town look for Elements.

[Crescent]

Id tend to believe that at least one non-speaker is Mafia.

Those two need to be removed for people who will actually play.

Gun to my head I naturally trust the one who role confirmed but never posted less than the one who never confirmed at all (effectively a true neutral), but it's not a lot to go on without content.

[Crescent]

Oh and to further the point about #177 and #178, perspective slips don't really exist when it comes to nouns and pronouns. I once saw a town throw a game at lylo because someone accidentally referred to the scum team as "we" and was voted off strictly for that.

Couldn't care less that there's four interchangeable terms for not-town and he decided to use the one that people generally haven't been using this game so far.

It actually kind of bugs me a bit that FK didn't call this out because I believe he's a player that should know how meaningless the argument was.

It just pings me. Cool with your input on it and happy if it doesn't ping others. Just sticks out to me because subconscious slips are a thing. They've happened before, they'll happen again. Just because you can mention one game where it was wrong to follow this logic, doesn't mean all games and situations will always be just like that.

Your last bit means more to me than your opinion on my opinions though. You thinking Frog is off for not calling out something you think he should. Do you think Frog is trying to buddy me then?

It makes me more curious as to why he says he town reads you because so far I don't see it. He effectively parlayed your post into shading the already oft-shaded #124 without commenting on the argument it was making. I find that kind of argument you made is much better at getting town voted off than it is scum since town is generally more loose with their speech than scum is.

BBT has also said it, but I don't believe he's given any explanation either.

Basically, I want an explanation of said town read because the comparison he was making between you this game and last game doesn't hold at all.

It's based on feelings and intuition. It's possible I'm underestimating Kowahbunga and I became manipulated by them without my realizing. If you can show me how Kowahbunga manipulated me into flipping my read on him then I will reevaluate.

This kind of feels like both an answer (effectively calling it gut) and a non answer baiting a counterargument. I don't have any major reason to call him scum, but I don't have one to call him town, either.

[Crescent]

i think you're reading too much into things

This is a scum mindset.

VOTE: Cephir

Frog's issues with my post could also be deemed "reading too much into things" but you agree enough with him to vote me for the same reason. Yet you want to tell someone else they're reading too much into things? This is made even more interesting that you find it okay to agree with Frog's reach but don't like someone that you claim is reaching, reaching against Frog.

i don't really get the focus on kow's vote tbh...

also don't think andante's response to it was scum indicative rather than just andante indicative though

Regarding Kow, my thoughts...

1. Why does town need to plan what they are going to do for RVS in the pregame?

2.

That’s entirely fair
I just had the idea in pregame so I figured I’d vocalize it immediately.

VOTE: andante

hi everyone

Yeah, actually, what specifically makes you park your rvs vote on me... could pick gamer, haschel, gamma, or penguin
yet you opted to join the vote on me. Please share why

I decided pre-game I would vote the first person voted, I'm not sorry it was you.

I think the justification of his RVS vote being "i decided pre-game" could have easily just been stolen from Gamma saying that she decided pregame to ask everyone to post a reads list. sort of "i'm getting pushed on my RVS vote, how do I explain it, i'll just say what Gamma said..."This is a bit of a reach but it did seem weird to me and worth pointing out.

Does this mean you also scum read Gamma for planning pregame or just me for doing it?

i feel like there are an immense amount of similarities between Kow's play in either game. I didn't bother to write them up earlier. I was curious if I could find anything now or I just imagined it, so I went back and within a few seconds I saw the above quote from the other game. You can see an example of just one way Kow is being consistent in the methods that he scum hunts from the above. I associate this same tell, which Kow is pointing out in two different games, with a user here named FrozenAngel. It's a legitimate way of scumhunting. If Kow is scum then they're doing a better job replicating Town than they need to IMO.

I'm not completely sold on Kow being Town, I have an entire tinfoil team solve which includes Kow, it's just my tinfoil team solve though. If there is evidence in the thread that I got tricked or emotionally manipulated by Kow then that's one thing. Barring that, my intuition is that Kow is Town, and I trust my intuition...to an extent.

The key difference I saw immediately was Kow felt more proactive that game instead of just snapping at specific people who were pressuring him early. He's also felt less fluid in this game. As I stated earlier, he made four consecutive posts that are effectively identical, all addressed to the same person, while other people were posting. I read his first 25 or so posts of that game and it doesn't feel similar like you're making it out to be. It doesn't mean he has to be scum, but I did want you to provide your reasoning.

[Crescent]

Honestly I don't want to do much more thinking tonight. I haven't had any kitten time today.

[Crescent]

I've spent most of the last 4 hours coughing tremoring and hallucinating If anyone has an inquiry of me please quote this post with it and I will get back to you I've already cancelled my work shifts until Wednesday

[Crescent]

Hopefully I'll be able to catch-up tomorrow evening
VOTE: clone

This post is bad.

100% found scum

If you think elements is caught why stay in person they are votung

[Crescent]

Gera was at zero 12 hours ago and now he's at -2. Reading his ISO it feels like he's actively trolling the game and it just makes my head hurt even more

Ok this time I actually will PEdit: Gera you said that last time and stayed on the person Elements was voting anyway and you are still on that person now instead of Elements. Are you saying they're both "caught scum"? You have not directly mentioned Clone once since you voted him.

[Crescent]

Gera was at zero 12 hours ago and now he's at -2.

I think it can be a sign of Town wagoning correctly

Wagons building this fast always concern me and people playing loose in general is the biggest reason I don't vote early. Like in 2277 I thought Galron was scum but his wagon was so rushed that I spent a good chunk of the day questioning it instead of him

[Crescent]

VOTE: geraint
Sure whatever

Uh this is a -1 vote already someone should probably be getting off

[Crescent]

VOTE: geraint
Sure whatever

Uh this is a -1 vote already someone should probably be getting off

Why? Shouldn't the first step be for a claim from Geraint?

-2 with the threat of -1 is good enough. Leaving someone at -1 sets up too many "oops I hammered early" possibilities.

[Crescent]

Gera was at zero 12 hours ago and now he's at -2.

I think it can be a sign of Town wagoning correctly

Wagons building this fast always concern me and people playing loose in general is the biggest reason I don't vote early.

Do you have receipts for this?

Yep. 2272 was my first game here and I was leading the charge on voting MM near the end of day 1. The first one to jump off his train was also me, and I did that at -2.

Where I come from you rarely if ever see an unclaimed player hit -1. It's essentially considered taboo.

[Crescent]

Oh and then in 2273 I went against my code day 1 after the backlash I received for following it in 2272, and didn't unvote. It led to Town Detective getting hammered before he could claim.

Consider that lesson learned~

[Crescent]

I really am not sure how to respond.

I am pretty sure, apart from the one post where I pointed out someone not reading the thread but still voting everything else I have done today has been 100% useless.

My votes today are solely going to be on thr longest wagon.
Every other post where I quote stupid percentages of certainty on finding scum is to gently mock every other player I see spouting how confident they are at finding scum on day 1 because if anyone has ever played with me before, I will invariably say day 1 is useless in successfully finding scum. How anyone who has ever played with me before could have taken anything I have said seriously is beyond me.

Make of that what you will

I've seen you call day 1 useless before. The way you're just mocking the game in general is new to me, and I've played more games with you than I have with anyone else here. I've spent this last hour trying to make sense of it.

Anyways I need to get back to bed soon before I start shaking again

[Crescent]

Gera was at zero 12 hours ago and now he's at -2.

I think it can be a sign of Town wagoning correctly

Wagons building this fast always concern me and people playing loose in general is the biggest reason I don't vote early.

Do you have receipts for this?

Yep. 2272 was my first game here and I was leading the charge on voting MM near the end of day 1. The first one to jump off his train was also me, and I did that at -2.

Where I come from you rarely if ever see an unclaimed player hit -1. It's essentially considered taboo.

Okay, and did you unvote because you felt the wagon was building too quickly, and do you recall encouraging others to unvote for this reason?

I don't remember the specifics. I wouldn't encourage other people to unvote if mine was already resetting it back to -3. I do remember saying I was worried that Gamma and Vanya would inadvertently hammer if I left him at -2. The funny thing is I was right. When he got back to -2, the two of them combined to "oops" hammer him just a couple of hours later. Also in 2277 I openly believed Galron was scum, but I spent the majority of day 1 refusing to vote him and attacking his wagon instead because it built so fast it made me super uncomfortable. The guy had like 5 votes in the first 70 posts of the game, and his train essentially never wavered. My reasoning for scum reading him ended up being completely different from the reason he was wagoned in the first place.

But basically, on my homesite, most people right now would be pushing for an unvote. My last scumgame there was actually helped significantly by an accidental early hammer because two people weren't paying enough attention and didn't realize they were placing the -1 and hammer vote in the span of like 3 minutes.

This seems like it's getting more and more offtopic though. I will always be weary of the quick train and call for an unvote in this situation and that's that.