Mini 1452 - Inevitable Mafia (Game Over)

[Yates]

/confirm

Reading now.

-----

Votecount #3:
Broseidon - jmo16mla
TMTOLBTWNTOF - Does Bo Know, DCLXVI
DLCXVI - TMTOLBTWNTOF, RadiantCowbells, ThAdmiral, gorckat
jmo16mla - Rob13. BROseidon

Not voting - CooLDoG, guru guru, nhammen, Yates

With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to start the doom counter!

Deadline is May 29th.

[Yates]

VOTE: JMO
At first I thought Rob was creating a case to fit his read. JMO's responses to easy pressure have been - well - unimpressive.

[Yates]

What pressure?

The pressure that evoked the responses in your ISO posts 9, 10, 11, and 12. Why are you pretending like you AREN'T feeling the pressure? Seems weird.

PE: Noted, Cowbells.

[Yates]

I would like to make clear to everyone that I do not in any way support a jmo16mla lynch at this time.

By the by - is there a reason for this? Perhaps a post or some meta reasons causing you to lean Town on JMO that I wouldn't understand?

[Yates]

Because I didn't feel I was under pressure.

In that case, your posts 67 and 71 look even WORSE.

[Yates]

I think we should get DCLXVI up to L-1.

But that's just me.

Can you respond to post 80 please? Thanks.

[Yates]

I'm not sure about this, but I don't like that mason claim, partly because masons were discussed earlier in the game...
Should we get the other mason to confirm?

Straw....

Camel's back = broken.

VOTE: TMTOLBTWNTOF

[Yates]

So no, I see no downside in this specific situation.

At first I didn't like the idea of masons claiming. Upon further reflection, masons are of limited use to the Town. Equally, they are lower priority targets for scum. They are essentially two VT's that can chit chat, right? It's not like they are going to have information we don't already have outside of each others' identities. If the other mason reveals and they can cross-confirm each other, it's like having two innocent results from a cop.

So, if the scum want to waste their night actions on Masons, that buys our PR's more time to do what they need to do. Seems like a reasonable request. What am I missing?

[Yates]

Makes it easier for scum to try to weed out other power roles early.

This is probably the better argument for not revealing. Removing masons from the potential suspect pool increases their chances of hitting a PR at night if they choose not to go after masons.

Good call.

[Yates]

Also, mason partner needs to claim before lynch

Why can't the mason partner claim if DCL gets to L-1 or L-1 with declared intent to hammer? Also, if the mason partner gets run up, it's incumbent upon them to claim at that point and have DCL confirm.

This obviously only works today and wouldn't work tomorrow if DCL gets NKed but it's a reasonable compromise.

[Yates]

We should drop the discussion on what we do with DCL and his mason claim and focus on others.

Except that he is the leading wagon and we are discussing the best way to use this claim to our advantage. I don't see how spending 24-48 hours sorting this out is a bad thing.

[Yates]

Yates. So you think that asking the mason partner to claim is a reasonable request, as per your #200.

Also per my 200...

At first

I didn't like the idea

of masons claiming.

Upon further reflection

...

Then per 208:

This is probably the better argument for not revealing.

Good call.

Here's the order of events:
- I didn't think masons should claim and thought it was stupid when I placed my vote on you in 187.
- It took further reflection and post 198 [which comes after 187] to have me rethinking my position.
- I then state my updated opinion in post 200
- Broseidon's 202 puts into words what had been rattling around in the back of my mind.
- I make post 208 which states that I'm back to being opposed to masons claiming.

Here's the summary:
You partially quote my post 200, misrep my position, and ignore my updated position clearly stated in post 208 in your 219 post.

Yeah. I'm content with my vote on you. I'll worry about my two other scum suspects [cooldog and JMO] tomorrow.

PE: gorkat is not in my Town pile either, fwiw.

[Yates]

THERE ARE/COULD BE BETTER LYNCHES

Like TMT. And CoolDog.

[Yates]

DCL isn't scum. With that stated, I obviously agree that there are better lynches than DCL. Two lynch candidates I like better than DCL are TMT and CoolDog. I like TMT and CoolDog for numerous reasons. Most recently I like them as scum for an obvious role fishing attempt while trying to make it sound proTown.

[Yates]

You didn't support it - you proposed it. Being wrong or having a bad idea isn't inherently as scummy as the people following the wrong information or bad idea.

You require further scrutiny and therefore aren't a Town read if that makes you feel better?

[Yates]

Being wrong or having a bad idea isn't inherently as scummy as the people following the wrong information or bad idea.

[Yates]

I mean if you really don't care just vote who I am telling you to vote - cooldog.

I'd be willing to move my vote to my second biggest scum read if you can tell me why TMT is not scum.

[Yates]

Can someone, anyone, summarize the case on DCL before the Mason claim?

Why are you buddying the crap out of the claimed mason in this post? This reads scummy.

[Yates]

Last words:

lynch Rob13 and DCLXVI. Gorckat is town.

What do you think about TMT and CoolDog?

[Yates]

I am a compulsive JOAT with one commute, one nk, and one cop invest.

Does this mean you are a VT on N4?

[Yates]

@Mod - Can we get a vote count please?

If CoolDog isn't at L-1 I'm going to put CoolDog at L-1.

If CoolDog is at L-1, I'm going to hammer once Radiant answers my question.

[Yates]

Yates, if you do not wait for a claim from cooldog before hammering

I know how to handle a hammer, thank you very much. This isn't my first rodeo.

Hey Radiant...

I am a compulsive JOAT with one commute, one nk, and one cop invest.

Does this mean you are a VT on N4?

[Yates]

Also, in case it wasn't clear...

INTENT TO HAMMER COOLDOG

[Yates]

yeah ok its rob-yates-dcl

3 reasons CoolDog isn't scum Go.

[Yates]

*shrug* Wouldn't be the first time.

[Yates]

@yates, you totally are setting yourself up for at troll answer.

You were right.

what constitutes a "reason"?

[Yates]

Reason 1 - Believes DCL is a Mason and tries to identify his partner in his first post then decides he would be "100% happy" with lynching said mason read.

Spoiler:

So you are masons with gorcat.

actually, I'm going to talk about ending the day. I would be 100% happy with a DCL lynch.

Reason 2 - Role fishing [specifically the other mason].

Spoiler:

post 127, CooLDoG"]So you are masons with gorcat.[/quote]

I 100% agree with rob.

Also, mason partner needs to claim before lynch.

Also, on a scale of 1-10 you are at "level 8" likelihood for claiming mason.

What I like about this one is it's a "go ahead and hard claim you aren't the mason now" fish.

Reason 3 - Strategerie Fail.

Spoiler:

The best play, no matter if you want him to out his bud or not, is to lynch dcl today. Scum are given too much advantage (essentially a free lynch in more important parts of the game) to consider letting him live...

I still feel better about a TMT lynch but I'll be fine hammering CoolDog if he doesn't dazzle me with defense.

[Yates]

not one of those things amounts to any more than a difference in opinion on matters of game theory. you don't demonstrate in any way why these things are scummy.

Well guess what? It's still Day 1 so I don't have a guilty result on him. And you have not presented a single reason he's Town. And neither has he. It's not on me to propve that a scummy player is just playing like crap and not actually scum. Because you know what? He might actually be scum. And now you are hitching your horse to that wagon. Enjoy the ride.

[Yates]

Catching up now. I was out of Town for Memorial Day shens...

[Yates]

Looks like I missed some penis fighting and not much else. I'm cool with the wagon flip to TMT. Preferable to CoolDog today. The two VT claims do nothing for or against either of their cases.

[Yates]

Finally, it almost looks like you are trying to connect him to CooLDoG in some way

And hello trying to connect rofl and CooLDoG.

Those are the same same points. Also, it looks that way because I am. When someone takes a hard line stance on a certain person being obvious Town, I want to know why it isn't obvious to everyone else. That hard line stance, btw, is what ACTUALLY connects the two - not me. I'm just the one that pointed this fact out in plain text.

In case you are confused about where ROFL tied himself to CoolDog on his own, click the spoiler.

Spoiler:

1. I threaten to put CoolDog at L-1 or hammer.

@Mod - Can we get a vote count please?

If CoolDog isn't at L-1 I'm going to put CoolDog at L-1.

If CoolDog is at L-1, I'm going to hammer once Radiant answers my question.

2. ROFL immediately makes an attempt at intimidation despite never making a single post defending CoolDog AND despite the fact CoolDog is in position to BE HAMMERED or put to L-1 by me. In other words, ROFL ignores all of the votes on CoolDog until someone is willing to declare their intent to hammer.

fos: yates

You don't think that's odd?

3. I reaffirm my intent to hammer.

Also, in case it wasn't clear...

INTENT TO HAMMER COOLDOG

4. Once again ROFL swoops in to defend his buddy.

yeah ok its rob-yates-dcl

Consider ROFL and CoolDog married via these posts. I don't know if it's because ROFL knows CoolDog is his scum buddy or if it's because ROFL is scum looking for Town credit that knows CoolDog is Town. Either way, I want to make that determination. The only way to make that determination is to find out why ROFL is claiming CoolDog - who was in lynch position - is Town. Incidentally, this is also part of the reason I'm not currently voting for CoolDog but would be willing to have his alignment mod confirmed via lynch.

The bigger issue here is why you WOULDN'T want ROFL to state where his hard defending of CoolDog is coming from. You would think this would be of particular interest given your scum read on CoolDog, your vote on CoolDog, and your willingness to compromise on MY prime candidate [TMT] if you can't get a CoolDog lynch as stated here.

I have a stronger scumread on CooLDoG than TMT, but if deadline looms, then TMT is an acceptable compromise lynch.

So... what's up?

[Yates]

Oh, I have been complaining about rofl's lack of reasons since he replaced in. But what's up is that you explicitly ask rofl to defend CooLDoG and then attack him for defending CooLDoG. It looks pretty scummy.

I think you need to reread the quoted posts in the order in which you presented them, since I think my point is evident. I'm not attacking ROFL for defending CoolDog. I'm attacking ROFL for defending CoolDog then explicitly NOT providing reasons for why he is defending. Those are two very different things. Also, as asked in my previous post, are you not curious as to why ROFL would be suspicious of someone claiming they would put CoolDog at L-1 or hammer [though not on the wagon yet - ie. me] but NOT suspicious of any of the people already ON the wagon? If you are actively looking for cognitive dissonance, there's your example.

[Yates]

I think we should place a hold on mass-claiming till we here what radiant has to say.

Agree with this.

[Yates]

I'm going to go way out on a limb here and suggest that number four is the most likely one, and me the most likely one to have been docced.

LOL. This is a terrible assumption.

[Yates]

6) You're mafia

I find this explanation most likely.

[Yates]

I prefer having the full DCL wagon at the top of the list, so me or Thad first and second.

This is cool with me. Then I'd think popcorn. I don't see why we WOULDN'T popcorn the rest.

[Yates]

No. No popcorn.

Why not? You don't think popcorn favors Town and gives more info than a presorted list?

[Yates]

Claim order is fine. Popcorn gets dredged down by people having to wait. This should run a little quicker.

Whatever. Not a big sticking point. I was thinking "popcorn analysis" but it doesn't stand up under further scrutiny.

[Yates]

Why not the order we voted in and just randomly choose the last three?

BROseidon
jmo16mla
Yates
Hoopla
gorckat

roflcopter
nhammen
ThAd

*Yates guarantee there is scum OFF the wagon. Book it. Bank it.

[Yates]

VT. Next?

[Yates]

I am VT.

[on the off chance there is a LD role]

[Yates]

Lie Detector. Sometimes they can determine the truth value of a part of a message. Usually it's the whole message.

[Yates]

Still need claims, people.

[Yates]

This is what we've got so far...

RadiantCowbells - JOAT
DCLXVI - Mason
CoolDog - VT

Yates - VT
Hoopla - VT
gorckat - VT [still need an "I am VT post, though, just in case]

roflcopter - ????

nhammen - VT
jmo16mla - VT
BROseidon - VT
ThAdmiral - VT

[Yates]

If we are willing to assume Radiant is town, then it is optimal for him to wait until D4 to claim results from his other two abilities

Why? What makes you think he'd even be alive D4?

[Yates]

Yates- have you played with a Lie Detector before?

Yes. More than once.

The two that really stick out in my mind are:
You Could be Anyone - where we got the LD lynched in LYLO and How Two and a Half Friends Banged Your Mother where Nero lied about being a LD as VT to get me mislynched as a VT.

[Yates]

On my wagon, Rob and TMT have both flipped VT, and RC is likely town given the lack of any other PR claims.

As much as I want to OMGUS CoolDoG and vote him, I have to agree with hoopla that his very annoying tunneling on me is more likely to come from town.

That leaves Gork and/or ThAd as scum on my wagon. I'm definitely less certain of my town read on Gorc.

I still think gork has a decent chance of being town so...

vote:The Admiral

If you are taking the counter-wagon approach; why ThAd over Gorck? Wouldn't Gorck earn more scum points than ThAd simply by being on both wagons? Or is there more to your ThAd-Scum/Gorck-Town read than you are telling us?

[Yates]

Radiant [assuming Town] could claim commute and lie as well, which could potentially draw scum into wasting a shot. Which I think would be a great play.

Also, even at L-1 I wouldn't claim mason. What would be the point? Death of mason 2 confirms mason 1. Otherwise there's always the specter of two scum fake claiming masons.

[Yates]

this is why i just want to know who the second mason is, because i'm tired of everyone saying we shouldn't attack scummy people cause they might be the mason. if hoopla is the mason then telling me not to lynch yates yesterday because *he* might be the mason was ass backwards retarded.

Have you made a case on me yet? Or are you just going to sit there and try to draw out the second mason?

VOTE: roflcopter

[Yates]

These are the two major wagons on town that happened day 1. There is scum in there.

Speaking of scum off the wagon, you'll notice rolfcopter isn't on either wagon. Nor mentioned in your post.

[Yates]

Pedit, I was only looking at scum on the wagon, I don't see how that last post is relevant at all.

Well, you are voting for ThAd. ThAd was off the wagon. You were deciding between ThAd and Gorck. They were both off the wagon [though Gorck was also on the wagon]. So I guess you can see my confusion.

[Yates]

That is a really stupid idea. I'll let you figure it out why on your own though.

I disagree. I'll let you figure out why on your own, though.

[Yates]

1. Thad was on my wagon.

Right. Then switched to CoolDog. Therefore, ThAd was on the COUNTERWAGON to the lynch. IE, he was off the lynch wagon.

2. Do you really, honestly think that town only has a JOAT?

What's giving you the impression that I think that?

[Yates]

My wagon. I believe there is scum there, and yes, thAd was one of the people on it.

I understand. My point is that at the end of the day, letters was the one lynched. So there is likely scum there as well. Gorckat's name appears on both of those lists. That's why I asked you why you would choose ThAd over Gorckat.

that kind of implies you don't really believe that there are masons

Ok, I see why you would think that. I'm on the record as saying I believe the mason claim. There are others who do [or did] not share this opinion. My concern is scum claiming the mason claims are part of a scum gambit to get one mislynched then nk the other that same night. So I guess the point is moot other than the fact you can recover from that more easily on Day 2 than you can say Day 4.

[Yates]

That does not make any sense.

I just said what *I* would do.

More importantly, what gives you a Town read on Gorck?

[Yates]

BTW:

if you believe the mason claim

In case you are wondering if I believed the mason claim, that's why I lynched TMT.

[Yates]

There is a lot of contradictory shit going on here.

I answered this in 588. There is enough in that response and my claim that thinking for a minute should tell you all you need to know. And now you need to drop it.

[Yates]

vote: cooldog

why is he suddenly getting a free pass?

Why are you both giving gorck a free pass? DCL claims he has gorck as a slight Town read but hasn't stated why...

[Yates]

I'm not seeing what you are talking about, even after you say that it is in 588.

You wouldn't. That message isn't to you.

[Yates]

guys, I think I like a yates lynch.

Of course you do. Because you are scum with roflcopter and gorck.

[Yates]

Because you are scum with roflcopter and gorck.

Well, gorck or nhammen. Which one is your other scum buddy?

[Yates]

Well, since CoolDog put me at L-1 - still without a case - I may as well truth claim.

I am the Town Cop
I received an innocent result last night
I will not be revealing innocent results until I have two or an innocent and a guilty

That is all.

[Yates]

He can't have looked at anyone in his scum class (rofl, nahmmen, you and me) because he wouldn't be pairing us all up.

I could have and not trusted the result.

[Yates]

And you claimed VT first becausee?

Is this a serious question or lulz?

I wouldn't expect neighbor 2 to claim. I wouldn't expect the doc to claim. So, what else would I claim?

[Yates]

So you're worried about a Godfather?

Or something else. I'll put it to you this way; my result wasn't a guilty. I'm leaving it at that.

[Yates]

See? That made things easier, nhammen. You just overplayed your hand. You and roflcopter have basically just confessed as scum.

Here's the thing; scum fake claiming cop at L-1 would fake a guilty on someone. Anyone. 1 for 1 as caught scum? Better than nothing. Then still have a chance to play a role swapper card or something like that and hope for the best.

Conversely, scum will look reluctant to move their votes. Then try to oversell their case as you have done here, realizing that my alignment is about to be mod confirmed so you have something to point back to tomorrow to try to remove suspicion.

nhammen and roflcopter are two of your scum. Last scum is in Gorck/Cool_Dog/Broseidon [in order of most to least likely].

Good luck.

[Yates]

On the off chance Yates is truthful

Oh I'm not being truthful. I'm obviously not a cop. But nhammen and roflcopter didn't know that. All they knew was that I wasn't scum with them. Whoops.

Like I said; nail these guys then find the last scum.

[Yates]

So I'm hammered and I'm still VT. You can use that knowledge constructively or you can continue to listen to the godawful nonsense spewing out of rolfcopter and RC's mouths.

1. There would ABSOLUTELY be scum on the miller's wagon. Any argument to the contrary is laughable.
2. Post 672 is so bad I would almost push for the JOAT lynch tomorrow just to stop nonsense like this from appearing in the game anymore. JOAT is unconfirmed so if RC inexplicably lives through two more nights you need to kill it.
3. Post 668 as you are about to have mod confirmed, my reads aren't part of the gambit. The fake claim was my gambit to catch them.

Also, one scum is not on my wagon.