Mini 1454 - GAME OVER

[Aj The Epic]

VOTE: Bubbajack

I'm such a hipster. You two are WAY too main stream for my red flannel jacket, jeans and beard.

[Aj The Epic]

People, Bubba isn't close to L-1. What are we, cautious?

[Aj The Epic]

Vote Aj The Epic. His first post was a random vote on bubba and his second post was wondering why bubba wasn't at L-1 yet.

I wasn't wondering why, I was stating that everyone sucked at counting. "What are we, cautious" refers to the fact that you were short l-1 by a good 2 votes (or missing a lynch by three).

Why are we questioning experience? Is it going to help us? Probably not, next topic.

[Aj The Epic]

Fuzzy is always like this. The unfortunate part is people still consider that to be a scum tell. It's null at best. It's one of the two ends of the reaction test. You either react, or you don't and Fuzzy instigates in his reaction. I advised him in a game a while back (As masons) not to do that and he got nk'd.

I still don't correlate long wall=town, AIF. Might want to re-read actual content over effort. As scum, I'll put in effort to avoid a lynch, too.

[Aj The Epic]

@amrun, you've got NS and myself, at least.

Yes. there was a lot of spam in bubba's wall and less actual amount of analysis/information/anything useful. Some spam is good to make it readable, too much and you fail to get a point across.

Fuzzy, that was a new one "Stop saying I'm town" and all... Unintentional wifom is generally lynchable by me, as it is scum trying to sarcastically kid their way out of a funk.

[Aj The Epic]

I do actually quite like my Bubbajack vote. Fuzzy, you have a tendency to constantly do this, tempt people to vote for you, so I generally make my own policy not to go after you until you finally decide to get serious. You'll do so by day 2, you're predictable like that.

[Aj The Epic]

What's our most effective tool in doing something about it?

Night killing?

And he has this tendacy as what role?

Town especially, since that's the only games I've played with him. In a previous game, someone mentioned his scum meta being different.

In closing, I expect this to be a short day one. This has been one of the most hostile day ones I've ever seen.

This? Oh god... You must be very new here (or maybe you took a long vacation). This is pretty passive comparatively to the games I seem to get dropped into. It's kind of strange when no one is at each other's throats calling scumslips and misreps by page 7.

[Aj The Epic]

Hmm. My vote will be better suited here:

VOTE: Hookerpunch

First reason: You're voting an inactive. That in itself is enough to vote for you, mr passive himself.

[Aj The Epic]

Hmm. My vote will be better suited here:

VOTE: Hookerpunch

First reason: You're voting an inactive. That in itself is enough to vote for you, mr passive himself.

[Aj The Epic]

Yes, but scum in threads are a greater threat than lurker prodded.

[Aj The Epic]

@AJ: While I am not posting as much as others, I would argue that I am attempting to contribute, but whatever. I won't fight a worthless battle of definitions at this stage in the game.

You just added your own reasoning to my own vote. I stated your vote was bad, not your contribution. Guilty conscious filling in the blanks?

[Aj The Epic]

G, are you GIF?

[Aj The Epic]

Can you give us a few reads, JKM?

[Aj The Epic]

His reads weren't definitive of his whole stance, Bubba. When dealing with that, you want hard answers to compare for later, not hidden references to which one can say "It was just a feeling".

[Aj The Epic]

Why would scum bus a partner not under pressure?

[Aj The Epic]

Fuzzy, even in that, you don't get rid of your scum buddy day 1. It's a numbers game and you don't do that. Plus, let's face it: Amrun would be the one sent to endgame in a Amrun/Bubbajack scum team. They aren't both scum. Now answer the question again: Why are voting with one of your scumspecs?

[Aj The Epic]

The three on Amrun are the three with the lowest amount of mafia knowledge/ms meta by my count. This is probably a frustration wagon and I really don't see much merit to it.

[Aj The Epic]

VOTE: JKM

This is not a random vote.

[Aj The Epic]

AJ is puzzling. Last post Saturday night votes JKM, saying 'this is not a random vote' then leaves. I found it pretty hard to read up until then but that sticks out for me.

That was a reaction test to see if JKM had any scum that would jump to his defense and pick a fight with the 'weak link'. Unfortunately, JKM isn't scum (even though his replace out had an odd timing to it). So, next.

UNVOTE:

Of course I'm going to play random gambits. That's how you win small games.

Hoopla, you chose the wrong scum. It's Jon, not Juan. A simple misspelling on your part, I'm sure, but you made a much better case against Jon than Juan.

VOTE: Jon

Also, to your issue with me: One, I have a good amount of weekend hours at my job and two, NS wagon would've had an interesting flip. Think of the level of play coming off the wagon. Their reactions would be SO EASY to read the next day after a flip. It would spell disaster for all scum because the majority of them are basic players, as Amrun said. That's why I liked the NS wagon... As a scapegoat, it was a mildly scummy person with a mildly scummy wagon that would've revealed some interesting notes with a flip and given us scum had NS not been scum. It was fantastically designed to catch all the younger players and separate town to scum. Now we just have to look in and vote Jon out.

Also, Hookerpunch is scum.

My L-1 vote on notscience, I immediately regretted, but I couldn't really back down from that course of action, considering it's boldness

. I've tried to stay ambivalent to the whole affair, because I do get both scum vibes and town vibes from him, but I kinda got bored for a moment and forgot the bigger picture. His defensiveness to me doesn't paint him favorably in my eyes(not necessarily because he is FoS'ing me, day ones are dumb and people really have no idea), but it did, combined with my immediate regret, give him enough benefit of the doubt to allow me to reprieve him for a while.

That is a scumclaim. Scum cares about positioning, town naturally is better and more comfortable with their movements. Defensiveness is a noob tell. Not a scum tell, but we've missed that apparently.

[Aj The Epic]

@ AJ you forgot to give a reason for your accusation. You gave a reason for Hookerpunch. If it's (I haven't contributed enough). You do realize this is a holiday weekend, right? There is Meat World out there too. But I guess we have to start somewhere.

Also, to your issue with me: One, I have a good amount of weekend hours at my job and two, NS wagon would've had an interesting flip. Think of the level of play coming off the wagon. Their reactions would be SO EASY to read the next day after a flip. It would spell disaster for all scum because the majority of them are basic players, as Amrun said. That's why I liked the NS wagon... As a scapegoat, it was a mildly scummy person with a mildly scummy wagon that would've revealed some interesting notes with a flip and given us scum had NS not been scum.

It was fantastically designed to catch all the younger players and separate town to scum.

Now we just have to look in and vote Jon out.

You just had me go through all the vote counts looking for where you voted NS, just to find out you meant NotScience. Can we come to a general consensus to call him Not, Science, or anything but NS? Can you explain a little of what your "fantastically designed" trap got you? Personally I think it failed, on both parts. I didn't like HP's comments on "not being a PR", but I think he's Town ATM.

I just reread the quote. It sounds like you're trying to defuse the wagon. Do you think Not's Town then? OR you his scum buddy?

Nice post.

First off, no. You're bad because you haven't changed a vote, sitting on a really easy wagon and coasting on through.

Now, the trap is after the lynch, and the reactions that come from the flip. The lynch hasn't gone through yet, so obviously the trap part hasn't even taken effect. Look at the wagon and point out one pro-town player on Notscience.

Oh, and nice implication with false options. I neither think Notscience is town nor is he my buddy. I simply believe the results of his lynch would be fantastic. What's awesome is the fact that you think I meant to DEFUSE the wagon. Here's a little side note for you: The only person who'd be particularly worried about this post is scum. I just let on to an idea which I believed to be almost fool-proof to catch scum. You, however, are now worried and wondering if that post would defuse the wagon when in fact, only scum would be worried about my capabilities to catch scum from it, hence trying to back down or attack it as invalid. No part of my post implied stopping the wagon, just that I could find the scum on it.

[Aj The Epic]

Start explaining or today will end with your lynch. This is another bad unexplained vote from you.

[Aj The Epic]

VOTE: Bubba
For saying I'm a good wagon, but not voting me.

Totes serious, btw.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Amrun

This slot needs more attention.

yeah, VOTE: notscience

still interested in what the replacement says.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Juanjuan

Yep, I like this one.

Look at all your votes and tell me why I said to explain it.

[Aj The Epic]

Sure: What line of corrupt thought brought you to that?

[Aj The Epic]

Sweet, when we lynch not and he flips scum, we have the start of a nice little town block and a good place to look at for more scum (see scum driven counter wagon).

I've asked to see how the Jon wagon is scum-driven. You've yet to respond.

[Aj The Epic]

Bubba, your scum hunting, but we seem to be going in different directions right now. I'm not saying you're right or wrong. Just that I'm watching.

It seems people what not/jon/juan. And then few want AJ. Nobody is looking at anyone else. Which is kinda upsetting, especially when Hooker has said some VERY questionable things. (That AJ acknowledged as town, and someone (not maybe?) acknowledged as mafia) I feel we are just trying to push a D1 lynch instead of actually looking at who could be scum.

Aj acknowledged as mafia, and just about everyone else gave no fucks and said he was town.

Spoiler:

Also, Hookerpunch is scum.

My L-1 vote on notscience, I immediately regretted, but I couldn't really back down from that course of action, considering it's boldness. I've tried to stay ambivalent to the whole affair, because I do get both scum vibes and town vibes from him, but I kinda got bored for a moment and forgot the bigger picture. His defensiveness to me doesn't paint him favorably in my eyes(not necessarily because he is FoS'ing me, day ones are dumb and people really have no idea), but it did, combined with my immediate regret, give him enough benefit of the doubt to allow me to reprieve him for a while.

That is a scumclaim. Scum cares about positioning, town naturally is better and more comfortable with their movements. Defensiveness is a noob tell. Not a scum tell, but we've missed that apparently.

Can someone lay out the case against jon for me? Perhaps I'm being obtuse, but I'm not really seeing it. That's in addition to my doubts with those on the wagon.

Okay, so we got the vote made in RVS (on notscience). By post 253, this is his only scum read, yet he's had no interaction with Notscience at all.

All of his posts have a high noise to content ratio. In 253, almost all his reads are town but one. His nulls are "I can't read this person". Jon's being non-confrontational, trying to stay away from any arguments by any means necessary. He picked one wagon on the newest player and doesn't try to scum hunt at all. Finds no one better to vote for. He unvotes in 334 for no apparent reason (It's actually from my post where I say I could catch scum on Not's wagon after a flip. He was pressured out).

After saying JuanX2 sounded 'scared after a few votes', he makes it look like he's going to vote Jaun. But instead votes notscience because someone told him to. See the non-aggression, non-confrontation stance he has? Jon literally wants to stick away from ALL the action. In 386, he claims his 'scum read

s

' are attacking him. I still don't see a second read.

And most important to me: Every time he looks at me, he brings up meta of one game. A game were I had almost no participation because I was coaching my mason buddy and hoping to keep a mason intact until Lylo. My actual meta could be read, but Jon thinks that he's got one game for a know-all end-all on my meta. It's truly another pathetic copout.

Bubba, your scum hunting, but we seem to be going in different directions right now. I'm not saying you're right or wrong. Just that I'm watching.

This perfectly describes Jon's whole game. Non-confrontational, not involved, pot shots from the side, and trying his best to stay away from the spotlight. He hasn't even responded to wagon pressure.

Next to get to Amrum's points.

[Aj The Epic]

AJ jumping on the bandwagon after me and Hoopla put me off quite a bit and confirmed something I had been thinking for quite a while. Notscience called jon out for buddying, but jon seems too intelligent to buddy so purposefully. Real buddying looks a lot like what AJ is doing instead. I didn't want to say anything until my gut actually had some substance because the minute I call it out, the minute the behavior changes. But Hoopla came in and began a tertiary suspicion of AJ, and we saw his behavior depart from his previous behavior fairly drastically. To me, this confirms that he's conscious of what he's doing and this makes him extremely scummy in my eyes. So scummy, in fact...

What bandwagon. You went Juan, I said Jon is the right choice. If you think I'm changing my behavior, I'm not. Notscience is an easy target for newness. I can pick bad scum off of that wagon all day. I don't believe Not to be scum, but I've never gone out of my way to impair the wagon.

Also, no offense but I wouldn't buddy you or Hoopla. I believe you to be town, but your reads are well different from mine if you think Jaun is scum. The fact that you laid out a better case for Jon and went Juan constantly bothers me. And then to simply cop out that Notscience is being scummy? Come on, for an experienced player, you should at least be able to analyze that this is probably Not's third game. Also, he has been the target of bad votes and bad cases. Using any knowledge, I can tell you that slot is mislynch fodder, but you still accept it as scum. This is another reason I'd never buddy with you: You're completely missing mislynch fodder and mistaking it for scum. You even said it's your second vote choice. The popular vote route keeps you high and dry, right? That's fine, but it's not the correct path.

Not doesn't flip scum. No chance of it. The wagon's composition has forever been too awful, from Jon's RVS vote all the way down to Kthx claiming a dueling wagon where he was right and i was the buddy. These are bad cases on a new player.

[Aj The Epic]

Is this general-you day 1? Quite a bit different from last time, or was that because SDC completely tunneled you?

[Aj The Epic]

I have not even close to accepted that slot as scum, and I don't understand how anyone reading could think the things you have just posted.

I also wanted to note for Hoopla that even though I was off the notscience wagon, if I were to have moved my vote from JKMatthews, it would have been to notscience at that point.

I was conflicted there, but notscience is scummy in a very obvious way, so obvious in fact that I was wondering if this was a reason he was maybe town as opposed to scum. I noted this somewhere a while back, probably in slightly different words. That being said, your analysis makes sense -- but I don't think it's quite as conclusive as you seem to, one of the reasons being that AJ makes very good sense as a not science buddy.

Really, you don't think Notscience is scum?

I know you had Juan as scum, but you had a better case on Jon.

So again: What bandwagon were you referring to in your first post? (the one that I apparently sheeped you on)

[Aj The Epic]

Sorry, I mistaked this post for yours.

Spoiler:

Looking at the notscience wagon:

1)

jon_h61

votes for notscience on the opening page, and other than one brief mention on page 11;

"NotScience is my biggest scumspect, and where my vote will be until/unless something bigger comes along."

- he has not said a single thing about notscience. Even that one sentence on him is lacking. If notscience flips town, jon_h61 needs to come under fire for sitting on notscience all day without even attempting to figure out his alignment. Conversely, if notscience is scum, jon is probably town. Scum don't needlessly sit on a random vote all day on their buddy. But it is suspicious if notscience is town.

2)

NobodySpecial

has done absolutely nothing all game, and like jon, is sitting on an ancient vote on notscience without doing anything at all to determine his alignment. Unfortunately NobodySpecial tends to lurk and be lazy as town as often as he does scum, so as much as I'm willing to call him out for his vote, I don't expect it to be alignment telling for him.

3)

JuanJuan

, like the other two before him is still sitting on an ancient vote from page 3 based on spurious reasoning. And like the two before him has done little to analyse his vote, other players or interrogate notscience. Suspicious.

This is the foundation of the notscience wagon: laziness and apathy. Not one of these voters have displayed any curiosity at all regarding notscience's alignment and have pretty much just nestled in for the ride and done nothing else. I would be gobsmacked if all three of these players are town - if they are, we're fucked, because it means our lynches are being determined almost randomly. None of these voters have any idea why they're voting notscience - all they've done is enabled other people to jump on thinking it's a viable wagon, when in reality, it is based on nothing.

This is highly suspicious, and I expect scum to be in the first three voters, or if not, the ones to come, because why wouldn't scum capitalise on such an easy mislynch?

Okay, looking at the rest of these votes:

4)

AngelInFreezer's

play hasn't been horrible and has shopped his vote around to other places before settling on notscience, so I don't have too much issue with his occupation of the notscience wagon. I still have him as null.

5)

JKMatthew's

vote actually isn't as horrible as I was remembering. He didn't have any votes on him at the time, and yet he decided to place an L-2 vote on notscience, when HookerPunch was also on four votes. That's an action towards furthering the game, and is only suspicious if HookerPunch is scum with JKMatthews - a distinct possibility, but if both notscience and HookerPunch are town, then it makes JKMatthew's play positive. Not necessarily town, but it isn't suspicious to me.

6)

HookerPunch

. I don't know how I feel about his initial L-1 vote on notscience. It makes sense if Amrun or HookerPunch is scum, as they could easily become the lynch target if the notscience wagon collapsed, but it still is pretty brazen. Reading through his iso, he seems very fencesitty and my gut says scum, but I don't really know why. It looks like he's avoiding committing to any serious stances, which is in contrast to his L-1 vote. Weird. I don't know why Amrun has him as town, but I'd like to know.

~~

I definitely have a lot more issues with the base of this wagon than those who joined late. As I said before, the fact that all my town reads are off this wagon, and I see six null-to-scummy voters on it, makes it really obvious to me that this is a mislynch with at least two scum sitting comfortably on votes they haven't been challenged on.

I want to lynch someone on this wagon, and it should be one of the early voters, in my opinion. I am still suspicious of JKMatthews, and I think he needs to be die at some point, but I think I've unearthed higher priorities here.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: JuanJuan

[Aj The Epic]

So, can anyone other than Hoopla present the Juanjuan scum case?

[Aj The Epic]

I like that you're actually in the game this time, but you're just blowing smoke. I almost want to give you a Town read, but I just can't. Before you went full-on attack I asked you about it. You ignored my questions, then try to come on like this scum hunting god. Well, be ready to eat crow, because you're not as good as you think.

I wonder what scum would say to a question like: Aj, I hope your town this game.

It was a pointless question put out as if you wanted to subtly give yourself reason later to switch over, saying you 'suspected me'.

My nulls, Post 253 "I'm going to be null on Bubba for awhile longer. I'm having a hard time getting a grip on him.",
"Marcmann hasn't given enough to get any kind of read, yet.",
and "I'd rather have NS as a mod over a player, in the one game I've played with him, and others I've followed I can never get a good read on him."
Wow such logic! I'm suprised you don't win every game.

So. One you haven't read on, one you can't read because of limited content (which, by the way, I have a town read on... fairly easy to tell when he actually votes with his reads) and one who you 'can't read'. Okay.

Next " Jon's being non-confrontational, trying to stay away from any arguments by any means necessary." - Yeah, uh huh, right.

It's true. This is the first time in your whole iso you try to play hardball with anyone.

"He unvotes in 334 for no apparent reason (It's actually from my post where I say I could catch scum on Not's wagon after a flip. He was pressured out)". - I hadn't even read you're post yet, but if it helps inflate your ego, go ahead and believe that. Besides, I can't prove it, can I?

Let me ask you then: Why did you unvote there? You hadn't changed votes since RVS, you have never voted someone else, and there was nothing to suspect anything changed your mind besides my post saying I could catch scum on a flip of not, so you backed off not wanting to be caught.

You like that phrase "non-confrontation" don't you? You keep harping about meta, but never explained it until now.

Hey, go out and put some cases out there. You don't win mafia games as town by sitting on your ass and letting everything go. Things have been said in this game that are bad, scummy, or scum. Why not go after them? If you don't, you aren't confronting people.

If you say it enough times then it must be true, huh? What am I supposed to do? Cry like a little girl? Or say OH this AJ's too tough for me to handle, and throw up my hands and replace out? I don't have a scum PM, and all your posturing can't change that.

Tell us why you're a bad lynch? Go hunt? Do something other than vote one person the whole game or present a case on the person you're voting for. It's expected of people playing mafia to do these things. You're failing the job given to you if you are town.

[Aj The Epic]

In my only experience with AJ, he was town and in that game (the same one Jon refers to) he posted much less and was much less interested in that game than he is in this one. What's that mean? It means he's most likely scum in this one. Yay meta tells.

Bullshit. You and I were in Kubli Khan's Xlbot mafia game. You were the poisoner and I replaced into a toxic slot, avoided a lynch on a missed vote format and survived the next day helping pick out some scum reads (mainly scooby and Wind-up). I was poisoned as an uncertain final townie in the place. That was the game you and MrO tunneled the hell out of each other and Leafsnail straightened you out eventually.

[Aj The Epic]

I'm still not liking HP's answers to anything. He said he's ok with a policy, and he's ok with joining random ass hell wagons. But he never joined the Amrun wagon, so I'm curious if he'll policy lynch AMrun now.

Why would there be a policy lynch on Amrun? Also, HP could easily be scum (As noted earlier) though I mostly find scum will not vote everywhere. Tunneling is a little more helpful to getting lynches for scum.

[Aj The Epic]

@ AJ Two quick questions. Why do you say Not isn't Town, but also call him a misslynch? The second is maybe more an observation than a question, but reading through your ISO, I get the feeling you know you're addressing Town when speaking to me?

From your ISO I copied every quote that could be construed as an attack. Up until you lambasting me, you weren't exactly a force to be reckoned with. So it's like the pot calling the kettle black when you try to paint me as non-confrontational.

I was mainly concerned with two other games yesterday, one was at deadline. So they got my attention and the time I had for Mafia yesterday. Today I'm scum hunting here, so I hope that makes you feel better.

Not is a special case. I generally don't bother myself with beginners anymore and almost always chalk them up to be mislynches whether town or scum. The better word is "lynch fodder" but mislynch is a more common term and pretty close to the meaning.

Would you prefer I addressed you as if you were scum? I don't ever address people as scum until I'm relatively sure of it because that generally sets off opinions to be completely locked and unmovable. It's better to sound 'passive' or accepting of most things and refute them without too much emotion. I'm trying to get you to post more because the more content you provide, the better the read.

I'm not even going to try and argue with a brick wall because brick walls are inherently brainless and rtrying to argue these points are just going to clogg threadwiwith unhelpful shit. You should however know that:

-Bussing D1 is common
-RVS wagons are random and stupid to try and analyze
-Opposing wagons don't have to have the same number of votes (see definition of opposing)
-Not once did I claim that because not science and I were opposing wagons that it's somehow proof that he is scum (as that would be a retarded agreement...oh, that's what you're using...huh)
-HP and not science CAN in fact both be scum just as me and notscience could both be scum (see bussing and the fact we don't have any flips for info)
-Just because you're bad at MS doesn't mean I can't have a town read on you at this point though you are quickly changing that with trying to lynch people with illogical idiocy.

One thing you now need to do is explain how you are 100% about something on D1. Because if you're town, that is an impossibility.

To your points:

Bussing isn't WANTED day 1, though.
Incorrect. Rvs is a wonderful time to look for oddities. Don't spend too much time in it, but once in a while, something stupid will stand out.
True. They generally form at the same time, one right after another. If they become dueling wagons, that's when you get concerned.
Fine.
True. With a new player as scum, I might fodder them off without a second thought just to avoid myself being caught by their slip.

[Aj The Epic]

Okay, so fuzzy's vote is null in my eyes. Bubba's I can't really argue with- he's been onto me obstinantly since the game started-.

Now, kthxbai's vote is the one I'm curious about. Not even twelve hours ago, I wasn't even in his top two guess. However, without any input from me, he has decided that I need to go to L-1, to "see my true colors". Okay. While I truly believe bubba is just misguided, this just sounds bloodthirsty and scummy. I understand being bored and wanting the day to end(hell, I am bored and want this day to end), but giving the chance for scum to hop on a train for free is stupid.

I am reminded of JKM's very timely replace out the second he's under pressure. When I'm not on my phone, I should reread kthxbai's posts, perhaps they will redeem him, but until that point, VOTE: kthxbai.

PS goddamn, I wish the more reasonable voices were here.

This post is bad. The idea that Bubba has been on anyone this whole game is simply out of touch. Thinking that Kthx is 'bloodthirsty' is just mudslinging. Then bringing up JKM's replace as a whole case (by the way, we've covered this shit: I think it's somewhat bad, but not inherently scum. Outside factors should not influence terribly) is worse. This, coupled by the fact that I grow less fond of my current vote makes me want to put you safely at L-1.

VOTE: HP

Ah, I'll give Jon another chance. He's probably town, once he started posting, there isn't much to say otherwise.

I'll go full-case on HP. Shouldn't take that long.

[Aj The Epic]

OMGUS! In any case, there is no hurry, my friend. That said, if you want me to vote, I'd much rather wagon someone who hasn't spoken. VOTE: Pikula.

Bad vote and everyone here knows it. Person hasn't spoken and we're two pages (at least) in.

UNVOTE: bubbajack8

I'm willing to excuse his last post that I voted for him for as general panic/noobiness. And, truthfully, I am adamantly against voting for anyone fuzzy has voted for at the moment.

DOTA match incoming--post more in a bit.

He refused to vote along Fuzzy's suspects, but his suspicion of Fuzzy is only expressed... he NEVER places a vote on what seems to be his #1 suspect.

JKMatthews--Okay, I see both sides of the argument. Bubba did a lot of the legwork in post 258 on the town-argument, but the others have rightfully pointed out an amount of philophosizing and shallowness. In addition, the people I am more likely to trust are against him, so there is that. Being said, I am not ready to commit to a JKM wagon just yet.

Which leads me to notscience. After re-reading notscience's vote history & posts since the point Hoopla pointed out, I am more and more liking this wagon. His three votes--Amrun, fuzzy, and I--have always been after someone else voted on them, but not only that, but someone who got some bad PR directly before his votes. I'm unsure if he's just being reactionary or not(it's possible), but I'm more willing to believe he's trying to push a wagon early in an attempt to get the tempo ball rolling in all cases. Ergo, I am willing to put down the ultimatum of a VOTE: notscience.

Notice the "And I" trigger. Third time is the charm for the vote on Notscience, but it's after Not is the second vote on HP. Even then, it's an 'ultimatum'. I think he meant 'compromise' or 'not my vote'. Also waffling all over a JKM read there. If he fence-sat any harder, he'd have a post a couple inches up his ass.

Anyways, I actually quite support at least lighting the fire on Nobody Special so he posts something.

VOTE: Nobody Special

Second vote for a relatively inactive player. Now HE is following the wagon. Contradiction from the old "Not science following vote" thing.

[Aj The Epic]

I'm pro at mafia. And mafia is a numbers game. There's a 2/13 chance that one of you or HP is scum. Well I guess 2/12 (since I'm not) making it 1/6. Plus there's a probable scum between HP and Not making a 1/10 (or so) chance greater then you that he is scum. It is a numbers game.

You just finished a game where there was three scum and you completely discount that. Why don't we add all the town reads to the pile of twelve? I had two townblock reads and two extra that I doubt will flip scum. That, plus me, is five I'm unwilling to lynch (and I don't spell out town reads right before night phase because guess who gets killed: Town reads)

So five people I won't lynch leaves 7 remaining. Of that, two or three is scum. It isn't a random guessing game, we're able to eliminate people who aren't scum and then go after those we feel are scum at a lot higher rate than simply probability.

[Aj The Epic]

I see my shit adding skills in 542. Then again, I'm awful at math.

[Aj The Epic]

Did we ever get a claim?

[Aj The Epic]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=25869

Town game, Fuzzy was in it (Slenderman) Yates-scum crushed us.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=27065

SK game, Bubba was in it (DXCL Mostly Normal Micro) I won.

Those are my two most recent that I know of. I don't always follow games to the end, so a large game that I had been in early might've ended in between these times. I wasn't a factor in those games though.

[Aj The Epic]

I mean, I don't mind an NS lynch, but I feel he's more anti-town by nature, not scum. We're kinda screwed if we take a second town out.

[Aj The Epic]

I mean, I don't mind an NS lynch, but I feel he's more anti-town by nature, not scum. We're kinda screwed if we take a second town out.

Please explain why you think we are screwed if we mis-lynch on D2.

Also, yes NS is normally quiet on D1. That doesn't mean he makes plays like hammering an unclaimed person with plenty of time till deadline either. This isn't a noobie game and he isn't a noobie. Thus, making a play that SHOULD mean his lynch as a townie isn't something town him would do. Making that play as scum thinking he could talk his way out of being lynched is something I would expect scum him to try.

If NS isn't today's lynch, I will be very disappointed with the rest of he town.

Also, AJ's last post oozes AtF and pretty much solidifies that he's scum even if NS is somehow not.

Here's the issue: We're dealing with a game of momentum. We lose four town players, even if two be our choice, and we're effectively down to all the mild-null reads this game since no one has developed a ton of town reads. Obviously, Hoopla was town. That was one of the four I had as town and unfortunately, mislynching means we're just losing another confirmed town and gaining nothing. This wagon is also coming on too easily. He's either getting bussed or we're dealing with a bunch of scum letting this wagon roll on through no questions asked.

I mean, I don't mind an NS lynch, but I feel he's more anti-town by nature, not scum. We're kinda screwed if we take a second town out.

I don't like how AJ is fine with a NS lynch but would rather his name be not on the list.

Vote AJ

Please explain this post. I didn't really comprehend what you were saying in the first place.

@Amrun, you're scum this game. I'm almost certain of it, and I'll draw up the case here. I've got you and Fuzzy for scum right now. I've been playing a game of gears over the night with this game, so I'll show you all what I've found.

[Aj The Epic]

On Page 8, I've got this: (It's long to begin with, so I'm just splitting these)

Spoiler:

VOTE: Bubba
For saying I'm a good wagon, but not voting me.

Totes serious, btw.

Okay, so this is to start showing the Amrun/Fuzzy connection. First, this vote which Fuzzy tries to pass off as serious. This is pretty usual for him.

VOTE: bubba

I dig.

But Amrun follows. Lol.

Scum team is Bubba and Science.

Interestingly enough, Fuzzy picks the only with less site meta than himself.

bubbajack

serious question

have you ever played this game before

KBW tell. (Actually, this tell probably has someone else termed to it, but this is my personal name for it: Attacking experience. Could be used specifically for people on Bubba) I'll go into this later and explain why this isn't null.

bubbajack

serious question

have you ever played this game before

Yes, he has, I've played with him, he's terribad.


<3

Buddying again. I rarely, if ever, see Fuzzy buddy.

Lol I don't have competition. x)
I just dislike how Bubba plays, tbh.

Also, I may be wrong about the scum team, but one of them is scum. (pretty sure it's Bubba).

To this point, we have no town reads from Fuzzy, and he's going after Bubba even though he just revealed his first reason: "I don't like Bubba's play". This is a bad vote. But, I generally give Fuzzy day 1 because he really does have issues getting into the game properly.

Angel, so he's not terrible, so him using OMGUS as a serious accusation means he's scum and not just dumb?

--Knows about the vote.

So I'm pretty happy with the Bubba wagon
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Bubba

Also notscience's "oh i guess you found us" comment doesn't quite sit right with me either... so maybe he's scum trying to incriminate Bubba, or maybe he's using the "humour" thing I've heard so much about...

This is one of the reasons I still don't like JKM's slot, even regardless of Kthx. The play, for a semi-experienced player, was pretty slow and relatively off for what I've heard about him. Really, this post suggests Notscience is his primary suspect. Notice that he does use the same suspects Fuzzy does.

Follow on bubba. Not so much on notscience.

Whiteknight the noob is MORE COMMON in town, though not unheard of in scum.

VOTE: Hookerpunch

For not voting your suspects.

Lol nope. All of this work on Bubba and this jump? Someone's wagon is slowing down too much.

I don't like Amrun trying to get who he thinks the noob is lynched. I think he's saying I'm a noob as an excuse to lynch me for voting him. Which is an epic OMGUS. And pretty damn scummy.

Look, you're legitimately terrible at this game and also inexperienced.

a) I didn't even know you were voting me for me and I will never, ever care.

b) OMGUS is not even remotely a scum tell.

c) being noob isn't a reason to lynch someone. It's actually a reason not to vote for you if you just have no fucking clue what you are doing. You're insisting that you're competent, but your actions don't even approach competent. So why is that? Is it because you are just mistaken, and are incompetent? Or is it because you are still too new to know how to fake town competence as scum? In other words, are you just always terrible, or are you terrible because you're scum? So it's really quite important to ascertain your level of experience and other's opinions of your general play -- because I actually care about determining your alignment and reading other people's posts, which you either can't or don't.

A. I don't believe one word of that bullshit.

B. (I didn't even know you were voting me, but OMGUS isn't a scumtell anyway.)

C. If being a noob isn't a reason to vote me, why the fuck are you still on me? You say I'm incompetent at this game, yet you keep voting me. Now you say people who are incompatant shouldn't be voted. So which one is it?

I read other people's post, I derped up once. Whoopdy fucking doo.

Read my games. I hate using it, but read my fucking games.

-snip games-

I'm not incompetent, I think you are the incompatant one, What real reason have you given for voting me? Absolutely none.

VOTE: Hookerpunch

For not voting your suspects.

Yo bro, you should read.

These points are beautiful. Especially the A and B contradiction. Amrun was DISCUSSING the vote earlier in the thread. (Post 38). Now, let's talk about this KBW tell I am working on. (It's a definite truth, fyi, I just need it to catch on).

Amrun has attacked Bubba mainly for inexperience/newness, even if she says she hadn't. As stated in many of these posts, she thinks this is a legitimate reason to lynch, apparently. One of the funniest posts in this thread is where she attacked Notscience for advocating a policy lynch, even though notscience probably has never heard of it and Amrun's reasoning is policy lynching.

Now, why is this scummy? Because the correct play by 'experienced town' is if you think a player is that bad, get a replacement. Notice, though, how Amrun never questions Fuzzy for it, though his play is perhaps worse than Bubba's. This is what really strikes me as weird: You might lynch scum if you knew Bubba was scum, but he was reading frustrated townie, and after this post, very much town. You don't advocate policy lynches on slots that are town and can just replace out. You're also supposed to be unbiased with this approach, which means Fuzzy should've been under the same pressure. As with Notscience, but I think that comes later.

Bubba, scum can be incompetent too. And PS I'm not even voting you anymore and I wasn't at the time of your reply.

Here's the justification for no replacement request? Scum can be incompetent. Sure, anyone can be.Her last sentence reads that she wants nothing to do with him.

i'm happy with a Bubba lynch.

Of course you are.

i'm happy with a Bubba lynch.

You're really happy with a lynch on page 4?

While bubba's wagon is probably more advanced than it should be on page 2, equating it to an RVS wagon is really unrepresentative.

Notscience, how carefully have you read

?

Enough to see that he has done nothing that seems extremely scummy. Not to mention, I don't take much of RVS seriously.

ANYTHING with a reason, however tenuous, is not RVS.

Lrn2RVS

.

Oh thank you, you have revealed to me how rude people can truly be. It feels like RVS to me, show me some solid reasoning and you can prove your point there.

I qualify RVS until people start to tunnel and ACTUALLY get answers. Js.

Well, unfortunately, RVS is a term with a discrete meaning that is not this.

Commence attack on notscience for newness.

Yep yep.
Problems?

Yes. I like your reasoning for an early wagon. It's good to get the game going. It's not something you take to the bank.

You're not even bothering to engage your page 4 lynch target.

Even if we lynch bubba AND he flips red, a page 4 lynch is STILL a suboptimal lynch for town because it's low content.

This is coaching. I can tell that amrun really, really hates this post. It's pretty obvious, but she's got to stop fuzzy. Notice instead of the standard attack on inexperience and snide comments, this is a teaching, not a sarcastic remark. The tone is way too different.

Unvote

I don't like how HP is being very quick to please and would rather vote for someone who hasn't posted yet.

Vote HookerPunch

This guy is town. He noticed the issue before everyone in the thread. This is something scum doesn't notice/care to see because they generally take to one at a time.

I didn't mean that one should never vote for noobs. I meant saying that you shouldn't vote a noob simply for noobish behavior (ie don't vote someone for not knowing what RVS is).

And YES, I was saying that people should vote, and that isn't scummy and the fact that you think it is...

Sorry if it OFFENDS anyone to say that this game is filled almost exclusively with people who are noobs relative to me. When I say people are incompetent, I only mean that they are incompetent due to being noobs as far as I know, btw.

I don't find "noob" offensive. It means that you are inexperienced on MS and therefore don't follow norms and meta and must be read very differently. Everyone is a noob for a while. I was. I still am, compared to many players on this site. But in the context of this game? No. And I didn't realize I was signing up for this.

Go on pretending "I'm not contributing" when I'm one of the very few people actually doing anything in this game and posting and doing shit. (You're another, so thanks for that.)

I'm so frustrated with this game. I don't know how to play with people that VOTING IS SCUMMY and don't know what RVS is but are ALSO too arrogant to understand that they are relatively inexperienced. One or two is different, but when it's literally everyone that's like... what the hell. That's why there are SEs and ICs in newbie games. You need a mix of experience levels to keep a game moving, ideally.

Look at this massive post dedicated to subtly gain power over new players. Whether stated or not, she's taking an IC slot here. Even though GIF, myself, NS all currently exist in this game at that time.

And the AtE feels really weak. Surprisingly, she tries to appease Bubba, who just voted for her.

Vote:Amrun

So, through 8 pages, the majority of your posts go after new players. Let's continue this epic story.

[Aj The Epic]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Amrun

This slot needs more attention.

Typical Fuzzy vote. To be noted, he finally took off his own Bubbajack vote, long after bubba was town. Also, Notscience would vote later and Fuzzy's next post is the post where he switches to Notscience.

Fuzzy, do you still think bubba is scum?

Yes.

And yet you would vote for the same person he is?

Amrun, you probably should read it. I have this game, imo, locked.

More reason Marc is town.

Aw fuck. Hookerpunch isn't scum.

Unvote

Notacience is surface making a lot of scum noise, but he also seems to not be reading very deeply, so perhaps it is just noise. Still, I do not object to this lynch.

Fuzzybutternut, while it is questionable if he thinks about much at all, is still reading town ish to me.

Vote: JKMathews

I really disliked his recent post/entrance. As much as I appreciate him for not saying anything horrendous, his post is a lot of IoA and does absolutely nothing to advance the game. He's active lurking and not allowing himself to be read.

VLA until Tuesday

Work related. This will be most weekends, fyi. I may pop in if I have the time but it's a big weekend.

Fyi to everyone: noob is not an insult and I never intended it as such. Saying I am more experienced is not having an ego. It is being factual. Anyone with eyes can see it. I am not saying I am some amazingly skilled player, but I have a LOT of games and experience. Somehow saying so and correcting people about serious gaffes in theory is condescending. Sorry if you think so but idc really. Know that I am not trying to insult or imply you're terrible or whatever.

yeah, VOTE: notscience

still interested in what the replacement says.

And really. What kind of reaction was this? From what I had seen with Amrun, I expected SOMETHING to come of it. Nothing, again.

Throwing shit on the wall and hoping it sticks is usually indicative of scum.

Hmm... So, what have you been doing all of day 1 if not exactly that?


This was well shorter because Amrun's one long post, I responded to that day. Also, she went off to that Balto meet and has been a lot quieter the second half of the day. But still, there seems to be a definitive connection between Fuzzy's movements and her own.

This is why I would rather take someone legitimately scummy than NS. The last game I played with him, we had to work to avoid lynching him because he was 'incredibly anti-town'. I think a couple of players even refuse to play games with him right now because of his style so I hold firm that this is just general NS, anti-town and proud of it.

[Aj The Epic]

And I forgot to spoiler that.

[Aj The Epic]

Yes, but this is five together. I doubt anyone here has been in every game with someone else. Meta is a general overview, not a post-by-post 'what happened here' deal.

I also stated who was scum. Or did you avoid reading as well?

[Aj The Epic]

Seem to remember JasonWazza pushing the newb card.

[Aj The Epic]

AJ and KTB make a perfectly beautiful scumteam. It's so beautiful it brings a tear to my eye. Off of the top of my head I forget how many people are in this game so if there are three scum, several different people fit into the final slot, but I was not exaggerating when I said there are TONS of scum teams AJ makes completely plausible sense with.

I'd like to see your attempt at a case on the connections between Kthx and I that remotely resemble a scum team.

[Aj The Epic]

I think NS is the wrong lynch.

It is, but I don't see why you have a town read on him.

The reason NS is the wrong lynch is as follows: Everyone is willing to lynch him, so we can't get much information on him. Regardless of flip, he gives us nothing if everyone is fine with him dead. He hasn't given us enough content to make assumptions about his alignment. And to be honest, the chances of him flipping scum are probably 3/11. Lynching him is a roulette and it isn't ideal for the town.

[Aj The Epic]

Am I mistaken or are you just fencesitting all around the place?

He's defending his buddy... Ever since I brought it up, all he had done is tied himself to Amrun even more, had her pretending to shake him off and then basically stated that there's nothing wrong with defending (or in this case, sheeping) his townread.

[Aj The Epic]

At the moment, I'm voting AJ because he OMGUS'd on Amrun.

OMGUS is reasonless retaliation. Mine was anything but reasonless.

Amrun, you're missing one component: I don't make stupid, trackable kills as scum. Scum players will do ANYTHING to make sure kills don't come back to them. I one-up your night kill speculations with my WIFOM shield.

The only time I even VOTED with you at all was on JKM. No other time, and I never had any intention of buddying you, nor did I. I even explained why I had no reason on my vote for JKM and eventually stated multiple reasons.

But you can state when I "Shift modes", "Buddy you" or do any of this, because your retelling smells strong of bullshit.

[Aj The Epic]

No, just someone who has their reads wrong. You still have yet to bring up that case tying me to either notscience or Juan, or whoever you claim I'm scum with currently. And you still are fuzzy's scumbuddy. You just use a ton of AtE in every post to make it hard to argue any real post with you.

[Aj The Epic]

Appeal to emotions: Involving or using your own or other's emotions to your own advantage in an argument.

[Aj The Epic]

Are you ever going to start townposting?

[Aj The Epic]

Personally, NS, I'd rather have a bubbajack style posting than yours. You've been too inactive for us to do ANYTHING about you.

Fuzzy... OMGUS is basically something overly emotional players do. Nothing in this game is inherently scum or town, but the way it's postured and how it feels generally determines it.

[Aj The Epic]

I didn't say it was an option, but looking at how the votes are construed around different people, I have no clue who will be on the chopping block come endgame. So, if Amrun is the closest one right near deadline, I'll join the wagon, but I'd REALLY prefer AJ today.

This is bad. You want to know why? Because Amrun and I are basically POLAR OPPOSITES and by you saying you'll take either, you just showed that you're willing to take down ANYONE here as long as it isn't you. The lynchpool suggested if you're fine with either Amrun and I going down is the whole town.

VOTE: Notscience

I doubt you understand the complexity of "Bad" presented in this one post.

GIF: I stated I'd sit on Fuzzy until Day 2, as I always do.

[Aj The Epic]

But you have displayed no developed opinion by suggesting you are fine with two polar opposite lynches. No reasoning to it, just that you are completely fine with it. And you're still voting me for "OMGUS" which never was committed.

[Aj The Epic]

But OMGUS is retaliation voting without reasoning...

[Aj The Epic]

We take the "Someone needs to hang" part for granted in mafia. But did Not give any stance there? Reasoning? No, just an expressed interest to join any wagon that happens to come up. So not a stretch, just logic. Is this how you would like people to play? Or are you just trying to use any post I make a springboard for you to attack me in some way?

[Aj The Epic]

No, that's very clearly not what notscience was doing, and saying so requires a willful misinterpretation of the posts in question.

"Willful misinterpretation"? I daresay, it sounds like you are trying to use language to incriminate me for something I'm right about. Please tell me why town would ever waste my time saying "I just want a lynch" and then explain how that's town. What notscience said is he'll settle for any lynch. Is he attributing to hunt? No. He's posting that he'll essentially jump on whoever gets wagoned. End of story.

[Aj The Epic]

As always, you have shown a stunning ability to give no fucks this game.

[Aj The Epic]

I still prefer bp sks. Then again, I didn't know I was investigative-immune.