Mini Normal 1460 - Normalville Mafia (GAME OVER)

[Slandaar]

Ugh

I feel like trying something different...

I want everyone to answer these;
What is your favourite alignment and why?
What is your favourite role and why?

Me; I like being a town neighbour because I enjoy having a thread to scumhunt in during the night; gives me something to do; and I prefer the scumhunting aspect of the game over the imascumbag side hence town neighbour.

I guess neighbour isn't actually a role but meh I am counting it.

[Slandaar]

[
asking stupid questions:

My questions have a point to them being that favourite alignment and to a lesser extent role can give insight into how engaged with the game you should expect that person to be if they are town (and if they are scum).

Anyways, my friend, you seem an intelligent guy who understands RVS and RQS so can you explain why my questions are worse than those random votes that achieved nothing?

[Slandaar]

WIFOM much?

Nope.

Interest in ones role is related to their engagement in the game; where is the WIFOM?

It would be cool if this would actually turn out to be a crumb later on in the game

What is the purpose of this?

The action:

See this game/post. Yes, the number has gone down, but it's reliable enough as a starting point.

So, you have one link to one scum using RQS and you think this makes it a scumtell?

I see.

Random votes start wagons and get reactions from those under pressure, sets up association, sparks discussion about the game. Banter doesn't do any of that.

Nice bland explanation when we are talking about the votes in this game.

What pressure and reactions are you going to achieve when everyone knows the votes are random?

The point of RVS is to escalate discussion RQS does the same thing. Afterall my questions clearly sparked discussion and got reactions.

So, what useful information did you get from the random votes in this thread?

How is this not the scummiest thing you've ever heard?

Its theory, bad theory but its theory.

[Slandaar]

I feel like being nice

Just because I voted no lynch doesn't mean that I'm necessarily new to the game, FYI.

Don't take offense over it. Being new isn't a bad thing; it doesn't mean you are bad it just means you probably won't understand all the theory etc.

A mislynch on d1 is NOT better, IN MY OPINION, because I much rather, as I said, analyze the kill's info based on day behaviour that analyzing day behaviour

OK the key to knowing if you should lynch or nolynch on D1 is the number of players in the game.

In mini normals always assume one scumteam, one scum team one kill per night so;

13->12 on N1 so D2 12 people alive; assume no vig etc and this leads us to a situation where we have to nolynch AGAIN later down the line this means we have lost a lynch over where we would have been if we had just lynched Day 1. Therefore lynching D1 is infinitely better than Nolynch in 13man game.

Do the full math if you don't understand why there is a lost lynch; losing a lynch is very very bad for town.

In a game with 12 players; its more debatable. Theoretically nolynching there D1 gives the PR's an extra night while making the odds as low as possible for scum to shoot the PR's N1. This means that you have more information for the first lynch which would be on D2. Now the scum will mostly kill the stronger townies on the N1 this actually will balance the information gain from PR's slightly. The information gained from NK analysis is well... its actually GOOD when you have a lot of meta on everyone in the game but in a game with this playerlist (-1)? wouldn't do much at all. Then there is the fact you can lynch D1, Nolynch D2 and be in a similar situation but I have had enough explaining now as this is a 13p so this is less relevant.

[Slandaar]

Both scenarios; 3 scum no scum lynches Bolded show mislynches.
Lynch D1;
13->

11

->

9

->

7

-> scum win

mislynched 3 times lost on 4th

Nolynch D1;
13->12->

10

->

8

->scum win
(you can nolynch a 2nd time here with no detrimental effect)

mislynched twice lost on 3rd.

This is very basic theory.

[Slandaar]

Baezu can you slow down for a second please and then answer my question.

[Slandaar]

VOTE: Gooner

[Slandaar]

@Baezu: you are town, take a breath and listen: I am town, Grim and BP are likely both town, If someone believes nolynch is the best option D1, they will think it as both town and scum hence its not alignment indicative as it will probably be pushed as both alignments from them.

My vote for Elyse was because I didn't realize the RVS had ended.

Preemptive Defence; Worried about how his random vote will be perceived; if you are town why worry as you have done nothing wrong.

His Grim vote is just arguing about theory which isn't legit scumhunting and that is all hes talked about.

Also; I voted him he posted 2 seconds later and he didn't bat an eyelid.

[Slandaar]

Dragon you still have not enlightened me as to what the random votes in this game achieved.

[Slandaar]

How can Baezu be null PV?

[Slandaar]

Baezu why did you vote Future and not Gooner?

[Slandaar]

You didn't answer my question Baezu.

[Slandaar]

Note to self: sort this game out.

Note to Red: No lynch is completely experience related not alignment related on D1.

[Slandaar]

Oh right.

Future is actually scum.

VOTE: Future

L-1

[Slandaar]

It gives everyone a chance to post good content instead of 'oh I can't keep up'

[Slandaar]

Future waffled too much about the No Lynch thing, way too much and apparently has now vanished.

[Slandaar]

I like slow games

Easier to find scum.

[Slandaar]

Future (6) - grimgroove, chernobylcitybus, BP, Baezu, Nachomamma8, Slandaar (L-1)

Lets look at this wagon

Grim is town
Cher maybe town, he made one good post
BP is town
Baezu is town.
Nacho hmmmm.
I am town

Looks good.

[Slandaar]

Its annoying but, yes, best course of action is wait for Future to post or him to be replaced.

[Slandaar]

That doesn't make any sense.

[Slandaar]

Well you are basically proposing, "let's let him get replaced and let the replacement catch up and decide that he is town so that we don't lynch my scum bud." That's the vibe I get from your post. It may be incorrect, but that is for the flip to happen.

I am proposing we wait for the slot to claim and post any content they have either as Future or as a Replacement because that is clearly good.

What do you think should happen? Hammer with no claim?

I see.

[Slandaar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Gooner

[Slandaar]

TOWN
ME Obviously I am town so start sheeping.
GRIM
SUNNY
BP
DARTHE
BAEZU

I THINK THEY ARE TOWN BUT MAYBE THEY BEING TRIXY
ZTIFE
CHER

ITS PEREGRINE I WILL KNOW IF HES SCUM LATER
PV

SCUM
NACHO
ELYSE
RED DRAGON
GOONER

When I get off work later I am going to post some actual good cases on people.

[Slandaar]

That wagon is dead Red Dragon. If you are town you better shape up quickly.

Also; You kind of avoided my question, I say wait for replacement you say lolscum with Future! So, what was your preferred option? Hammer him without a claim? This is the only logical alternative... he was at L-1 so why didn't you?

[Slandaar]

My vote for Elyse was because I didn't realize the RVS had ended.

OK I know I mentioned this line earlier but its bad on so many levels; It shows he wasn't interested in trying to end RVS he only voted 'seriously' when he thought everyone else was. It also shows how he is worried about it even though if he were town there is nothing to be worried about.

I personally think daytime activity (votes, posts, hammers, ...) are much easier to analyse than night kill-decisions.

I disagree wholeheartedly. During the night, the mafia have to act together. They choose as a team which player's interactions get analyzed. If someone is fingering the entire mafia team, they may leave them alive over the player that has fingered all civs to try and get mislynches. They may do the opposite for supreme WIFOM. During the day, mafia can deliberately not interact or choose to interact in certain ways to deceive. If a mafia gets pegged, then they can dig to keep suspicion away from any teammates. A night kill has no deception; that player is killed. No matter what, that player is getting analyzed the next day, and the lynch that follows generally reveals why mafia made that night hit.

UNVOTE: Elyse
VOTE: Grimgroove

My vote for Elyse was because I didn't realize the RVS had ended.

So this whole post is about Theory its such an inconsequential thing from Grim but Gooner votes him over it because he disagrees.

Now, at this point in the game BP No Lynch stuff had just begun, he completely ignored that, COMPLETELY. There is no mention at all of that he just attacks some other Theory.

Nope, not from EM. But counterclaims yield a mafia member nearly 100% of the time. If we are claiming in a lylo situation, then the game is pretty much a 50-50 RNG at that point. As for fake night actions, unless I'm mistaken, mafia make kills each night. If that's not the case and they can no kill, then my previous statement starts to lose water. I fully understand that mafia WIFOMs plenty, but at the end of the day (or in this case, night), someone is killed, and the town gets to analyze. If it was a WIFOM and the night kill was a decoy, then the next lynch/night kill should reveal that.

And if scum make mistakes, then it doesn't matter if we lynch or not. If a scum becomes obvious, then of course we lynch them.

I'm saying that a no lynch on the first day is not a pro-town proposition.

More Theory Talk

Note the bolded: hes not actually saying that at all and it completely contradicts with 'And if scum make mistakes, then it doesn't matter if we lynch or not'

This post has my mafia sensors blaring in my head. It's a combination of all CAPS words, frustration, and also some semi-surrendering ("I will just have to wait for the mafia to NK me n1 to show you my role PM"). In my experience, bringing up PM info to avoid being lynched is usually scummy. Also, in a 13 man game where the pool is already small, why not just shut up and die? Why fight so hard on Day 1 to not be lynched? Usually

if I'm civ and getting FOS'd by people early in games, I put my head down and work twice as hard to find mafia

. It does no good to overly defend early in games because that's what mafia wants. The longer a round goes with suspicion and discussions pointed towards a civ, the easier it is for mafia to hide. A civ death can be extremely helpful for civs in the long run.

VOTE: Baezu

'Also, in a 13 man game where the pool is already small, why not just shut up and die? Why fight so hard on Day 1 to not be lynched?'
Seriously. Read this.

The bolded tells you he is scum. He is being FOS'ed early in this game but has he put his head down and worked twice as hard? lolno. He is just spouting nonsense.

'The longer a round goes with suspicion and discussions pointed towards a civ, the easier it is for mafia to hide. A civ death can be extremely helpful for civs in the long run.'
I mean read it. Just read it.

Gooner is scum.

[Slandaar]

@ slandaar why did you jump on the future wagon so quickly, esp if you were not sure he was scum? Also, don't you think darthe is suspicious for trying to hammer after sunnydays posted?

1. Not completely sure he was trying to hammer
2. I think it is the natural reaction to that ridiculous claim.

[Slandaar]

Did you see my post to you Sunny?

[Slandaar]

He seemed scummy does not mean he is scum. He was replaced replacement makes townslip so we dismantle wagon because the slot is town.

You are so upset this wagon died and I can only think of one reason that would be especially when you didn't think the slot was scum initially.

[Slandaar]

I am starting to think Baezu is scum.

[Slandaar]

The scum motivation is he is frustrated he lost his townlynch on Sunny and feels hard done by so is now throwing a hissy fit.

[Slandaar]

He lost his cool as it were and isn't thinking about how to win any longer, think of it as he feels cheated and is raging. He didn't hammer because he didn't think he needed to then the wagon died too quickly for him to do anything.

[Slandaar]

Nacho explain your initial Elyse vote

[Slandaar]

Nacho explain your initial Elyse vote

Gut.

OK good so it was a serious vote, so how much had you read before making the wall and voting Future?

[Slandaar]

Lets lynch Elyse

VOTE: Elyse

[Slandaar]

The reason Elyse needs lynching is thus;

The BP ERA
We all remember BP suggesting no lynch, doesn't matter your opinion on this right now, the question is; What was Elyse's? You won't find it because it isn't there.

The Future Wagon
Doesn't matter what you think/thought about the wagon, what matters is, what did Elyse think about it? Well let me show you.

[
@RedDragon
What is your read on future? And why?

I still think thegooner is scummier than Future but I 100% support a Future lynch. I still want to give both of them time to actually interact with others.

Future might be a better lynch anyway because Darthe has been tippy-toeing around his lynch and subtly trying to stall it. If Future is scum it would be very telling.

'I support the wagon' That is her opinion, no reasons why except 'Darthe could be a buddy'

The Red Dragon Wagon
Doesn't matter what you think about the wagon, again, what does Elyse think? there is in fact a little more here (I think they are buddies, however, moving on)

But yes I do agree with you about RedDragon.

Actually I'd rather lynch him anyway.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: RedDragon

Sheep vote, meh.

I think RedDragon is bluffing or something.

He says that he's willing to be lynched, but then asks if we want him to claim? What's that about? If you want to be lynched, what's the point of claiming and possibly stalling your lynch?

This is pretty ridiculous lets be honest.

@RedDragon
I'm "attacking" you because you need some tough love and are acting like a whiny baby for no reason. Come on now.

Wording here is interesting its not 'because you are scum' or some variation its 'Tough love'

@RD
Glad to see you un-self vote but you can't possibly call anyone scum for being on your wagon opportunistically.

Laughable. Course he can, it was an easy lynch so scum are likely to opportunistically jump on from his perspective this is perfectly fine.

Note the Darthe buddy stuff earlier was regarding how he acted around the Future wagon, these accusations stand alone and as such Darthe should have been questioned by Elyse or mentioned again once the Future wagon died out from Elyse; but he wasn't until later where everyone is calling him Town, so she does too.

The fact is she kind of follows the crowd around (something hard to show; I didn't try to here just reread and you will see it) and her opinions on the major events are hard to find. This is very indicative of scum and should be lynched.

[Slandaar]

People have different styles just use one you are happy with not one that others are happy with.

[Slandaar]

Obviously Don't respond to this wall with a wall but here I will break your case down for you;

Posts 86 and 144 are just statements he'll be catching up, after he arrived late in the game. Post 86 dates from the 14th of June.

Meh. Town do that scum do that I don't really care especially when its Ztife.

On the 17th of June, 3-4 days later, he presents us with post 161. At first sight this looks like an impressive block of text, but all it is is a rehash of the game theory discussions of what has been going on. Based on this, he starts a case against BP, who Ztife will be tunneling throughout the rest of the game based on this case. In 161 no other arguments are given besides this game theory disagreement, aside from a particularly agressive take on BP's post 112, which he chooses to read in the worst possible light.

Yep thats all he has done, bout all Darthe and Red Dragon had done also.

The following that happens is that Darthe gives him a townread for this awful post, and me putting question marks around this by stating what I just stated here.

See what I said above, this makes sense in context.

@Grim
Ok, I see. I admit I haven't take much of a closer look at alot of posts yet,

but atm the only thing that interest me is BP.

What do you think of his hesitation then? It was not so much of an NL, but more of the lack of explaination for his own push and then the wavering opinions about it.

He admits to only be interested in BP, while at the same time admitting he hasn't taken a closer look to other posts.

Doesn't really matter, if he thinks BP is scum then you really only need one super strong scumread as you can only vote one.

This hints at a bias from the very start of the game, because why would he decide to take a closer look at BP's posts and not at others? He had 3-4 days of catching up, yet all he managed to do was read BP's posts?
Note that now suddenly, as opposed to 161, the game theory disagreement in itself is suddenly no longer the problem, and the sidenote and agressive interpretation of 112 suddenly become the center of his "case". I responded to his question, but he never bothered to respond that that answer, probably because it didn't fit his story.
Note the promise he'll be catching up on the Future-wagon. All these promises of catching up sound to me like someone who doesn't put much effort into scumhunting and buys himself some time.

Yep hes not contributing much, we get that, this doesn't mean too much.

In post 201 we still see nothing of this supposed catching up with the Future-wagon, but just see another remark towards BP. BP is obviously still his only interest, and all this still based on this game theory discussion. If the case were strong I'd agree, but this kind of tunneled commitment is entirely unwarranted.

Didn't catch up, yep, but is he scum for it? eh.

Case on BP bad? yep, but so were Darthe and Red Dragons; don't really care about it.

Don't really have any reads on future tbh since it looks like mostly semi-serious posting in RVS. Seems to be over-reacting though with the case from Grim, but I can't really read anything.

I see a lot of second-guessing and on the fence sitting. He starts the sentence with "Can't get any reads" and ends in the same way, and in between there's something that's supposed to speak in Future's favor (I don't actually understand the part about semi-serious posting), and one against Future for an overreaction. While I don't understand the first point, i don't believe it makes much sense. The second point definitely makes no sense. Future barely responded to my case. He overreacted to the deletion of his supposed defense, but he never really responded to my case.

Meh

'That's false, NL and mislynch technically similar for scum. Both situations requires 3 mislynches after to win. If we're lynching D1 scum will be forced to make a decision of joining a wagon or not and shit, if its NL everyone would just sit back and relax.

Also, my point is it does not seem like he is arguing for it and actively defending it, quite the contrary actually.'

More game theory talk, trying to enforce his flimsy case against BP through repetition. His last sentence is very unclear, but I think it refers again to BP's stating he wouldn't mind a NL and BP's participation in voting wagons. An argument to which I reacted before, but Ztife casually ignored.

Meh, yes but we had THREE people chase this case similar lengths of time they are not all scum.

This.
Then again, I never quite gotten understanding slandaar and his voting and explainations in a couple of games anyway.

These "then again" posts seem very scummy to me. Very on the fence and secondguessing, again no clear read. Note that up to this point he has given no read on anyone apart from BP.

Fair point.

TBH, I'm finding it hard to get into this game, mainly with the lack of pressure on BP and the tunneling (or the tunneling awhile back) of Future.

First of all: hypocrite. If anyone's been tunneling on anyone, it's Ztife on BP. And why does lack of pressure on one person make it harder to get into a game? This game is more than just about BP. His reasons for not being able to get into the game make no sense, and are an easy excuse for his broken promises.

Eh hes sure BP is scum and doesn't understand why BP isn't dead, its reasonable town do it a lot.

Bullshit. <b>unvote vote sunnydays </b>

The bolding, the lack of colon after mod reminder, and a crucial hammering vote. Seems sloopy/fake. Hmm.

Given Darthe's earlier generous townread and this weak attempt at some form of criticism, I wouldn't be surprised when I see a Darthe-Ztife-Elyse scumteam. (Elyse got added for reasons unexplained in this post, but Ztife's vote on Nachomamma and the connection between Darthe and Elyse that's been pointed out earlier are the principal reasons).

As I said earlier it makes sense for Darthe to townread Ztife.

It is a bad comment though yes.

UNVOTE:

I think I see what happened here. SunnyDays simply misread his role-pm.
Nothing as honest as a mistake. SunnyDays is town and I was wrong about Future.

What do you think he was misreading then? SunnyDays just seems to be posting crap claims and OMGUS voting, someone please explain to me the reasoning how is he town.

Beating a dead horse. By removing the SunnyDays vote we actually dropped the tunnel he claimed to regard as an impediment to get into the game, yet here I can only see disappointment when we actually do move the vote for reasons that have been explained adequately.

I think this is a towntell.

Think about how you reacted to the claim, it makes sense, Ztife doesn't 'get' it.

309
The case is mostly on gooner's theory talk with weak reasoning, I don't really see how scum could give out jumbled cases like this. Seems like genuine town with weak scum hunting. Need to see his reads and thoughts more, 5 posts does not warrant a confident read for me.

All of this criticism applies to his own case on BP. This is an exercise of simultanously buddying to Slandaar by calling him a probtown, but at the same time trying to make him less of a threat in this topic by calling his cases jumbled and weak. This also reads as a weak defense for thegooner, but I don't think the gooner-slot is part of the scumteam. Sounds like a minor effort for a set-up.

Meh Ztife has this impression of me that is just very far from the truth; I remember him suggesting I was mislynch fodder for scum once (as town). That was amusing.

Sunnydays is going to have to do a little better than that in the Future.



Damn I'm funny.

Vote:thegooner

@PeregrineV
How confident is your read on gooner? Any particular highlights why he seems scum to you?

Same as above. Note there has been no substance with these criticism on the case against gooner, and also no clear read from Ztife on gooner. BP is still the only person Ztife gave a read on.

I actually like that he engages PV.

thegooner obviously will be needing a replacement.

While we wait:

VOTE: Nachomamma8

Not agreeing with this. ATM still seems pretty null to me.

Remember this.

@PeregrineV
How confident is your read on gooner? Any particular highlights why he seems scum to you?

Answered this pre-tiger, but his first real post expresses a concern with the perception he may still be in RVS.
His second post was on mafia theory and his take on it.
Third was badly reasoned vote on Beazu.

Confidence is it's day1, so willing to listen to other arguments, but my own inferior scumhunting has brought me to this conclusion.

What of sunny's claim? Do you buy it?

No comment on the questions about gooner, so still no read from Ztife. all we get is another question about the already dead case on SunnyDays, also someone Ztife didn't give a read on. Only open questions without any follow-up.

Eh I don't mind that, it seems fine, I like that he is probing PV.

thegooner obviously will be needing a replacement.

While we wait:

VOTE: Nachomamma8

Not agreeing with this. ATM still seems pretty null to me.

If he's null to you, why bother singling out this vote on him in order to express your disagreement? I haven't seen you do that for votes on other people?

Because of a lack of reason, and because im interested in knowing what you have to say for the vote.

Poor answer, there have been plenty of votes without reasoning, notably from Nachomamma himself. His interest in my motivations could be explained by scum wanting to hop on a certain wagon he earlier claimed to disagree with.

This point is ok

@Red Dragon
Heed this., Elyse"]
I think sunny's claim is incredibly ambiguous as well, but im more inclined to look at how the wagon is falling apart.
There's no deadline yet, so wait for gooner's slot to post.

Suddenly the SunnyDay's claim is less of an issue, he simply calls it ambiguous (still no clear read). Despite all the questions he asked about it before, he doesn't seem to care very much about the claim. Then why the questions?
Also he states he wants to see how the wagon fell apart? What does this mean? And where did he do that?

5 days to deadline.
In the exchange between Elyse and Nacho, nacho's case seems abstract, Elyse gives me an overrall more town feel.

Unvote, Vote: Nachomamma8

BP is still my highest scum read though, I'll be happy to get this wagon if there's enough support.

As for RD, from the previous game I have been with him he seems to be the kind of player with such a "defeatist" playstyle. As such he reads town to me, although I don't agree with the self vote.

And this one takes the cake in scumminess. His shift from a null-read on Nachomamma to an L-2 (I'd call it an L-1 vote given the circumstances) without a satisfying explanation."An abstract case"? What is Ztife's case on Nachomamma then? He put him at L-2 over such a silly reason? Really?

And BP still being his highest scumread, well, the case is weak, and BP was hardly here lately, not providing Ztife with extra arguments. This is just a way to show us he's got different possible trajectories, keeping an open-minded stance, but in all fairness: he's got nothing. He's got no cases, no reads, just a tunnel on BP and a very poor L-2 vote on Nachomamma.

Lynch him.

Best reason in this wall and in fact a good reason, basically, if you posted the last reason alone and said 'Lurking, promising content not delivered' that would have been a lot stronger looking case and more people would read it. Then again, you probably will think I am wrong and your points are right.

[Slandaar]

Yeah Elyse is really opportunistic we should lynch her.

[Slandaar]

Red Dragon and Elyse are buddies pretty obvious; throw in Baezu and town has won.

[Slandaar]

Baezu does seem bloodthirsty.

Being willing to hammer on page 5 does not seem very townie.

You guys need to listen to Slandaar. I am TOWN. I swear to you. The reason that I want to lynch BP is because he just seems to me to REEK of scum so why not continue to try to push for someone that I feel is scum? That is also the reason I was not willing to move my vote. But, since people obviously cannot be convinced by my words I will just have to wait for the mafia to NK me n1 to show you my role PM. Maybe there is a doctor out there who is willing to protect me because as I said before, I am TOWN. Also, when I get killed will you please vote for BP. That is my dying wish. For now, I will vote with those who are more experienced and take their word that future is indeed scum. Hopefully you guys are right.

VOTE: Future

It's a bit early to be declaring you are town in caps. You have one vote on you. Why are you acting like you are about to be lynched or NK'd? Do you think you are that much of a priority for scum to kill?

@Elyse I just feel like scum will want to nk me because I've been causing a lot of ripples in the water and making accusations. Creating controversy is usually something scum wants to quiet. I know it may be early to use caps, but I wanted to emphasize the fact that I am indeed town. I'm not really worried about a lynch but I don't think people have to wait until they're at L-1 to make a case for their alignment. I want it to be clear to everyone that their votes need to be elsewhere. The fact that future's vote is on me is prob indicative that he is indeed scum. I'm not going to apologize for being eager in this game. It's because I know I'm town and I'm doing my best to ensure that votes go where they need to go.

I'm beginning to shift on the whole

Baezu

thing. I am absolutely not sure whether she's town or guilty.

You guys need to listen to Slandaar. I am TOWN. I swear to you. The reason that I want to lynch BP is because he just seems to me to REEK of scum so why not continue to try to push for someone that I feel is scum? That is also the reason I was not willing to move my vote. But, since people obviously cannot be convinced by my words I will just have to wait for the mafia to NK me n1 to show you my role PM. Maybe there is a doctor out there who is willing to protect me because as I said before, I am TOWN. Also, when I get killed will you please vote for BP. That is my dying wish. For now, I will vote with those who are more experienced and take their word that future is indeed scum. Hopefully you guys are right.

VOTE: Future

1. Just like

Elyse

said, caps-claims of innocence don't quite add up to the general play of the game. But they don't ring to me as scum; quite on the contrary, it comes to confirm my theory that Baezu may very well an innocent newbie. Until...
2. She moves her vote to the

future

pro's-driven wagon even tho she just explained why she was reluctant to move her vote. She doesn't appear very convinced that

Future's

scum, but she'll join the town wagon anyways. Scum wagons for no reason other than to follow town.

I was hoping for a post that could clear up her alignment, but she posted this:

@Elyse I just feel like scum will want to nk me because I've been causing a lot of ripples in the water and making accusations. Creating controversy is usually something scum wants to quiet. I know it may be early to use caps, but I wanted to emphasize the fact that I am indeed town. I'm not really worried about a lynch but I don't think people have to wait until they're at L-1 to make a case for their alignment. I want it to be clear to everyone that their votes need to be elsewhere. The fact that future's vote is on me is prob indicative that he is indeed scum. I'm not going to apologize for being eager in this game. It's because I know I'm town and I'm doing my best to ensure that votes go where they need to go.

She clearly doesn't know how mafia operates. Creating controversy is precisely what scum wants, in order to confuse town and get a mislynch. (I think. You guys got me a bit insecure about my mafia theory. x) ) I think

Baezu

is just a newbie. I have no idea about her alignment until we see a lynch and I see who she's been trying to kill oh-so-eagerly.

I was going to respond to Baezu but BP took the words right out of my mouth.

So yeah thegooner and Future are good lynches ATM.

This post is interesting because it shows Elyse soft defending Baezu which is a change to her earlier stance of suspicion (which all her previous posts showed)

I think a "concern for life" would be something scum has more than town.

Nacho pointed this out but yes; why would scum have a concern for life during the night? It doesn't make sense, it sounds good but in context is completely wrong.

Let's just hammer him and see instead of all this WIFOM. And if I survive the nk we can talk about who's actually scummy tomorrow.

Yeah you're going to have to die soon.

And even after others pointed out why you wouldn't be NK'd, you still have that "Oh, I'm going to be NK'd"
belief for no reason.

Ya, I'm REALLY feeling an ELyse/Darthe scum team based on the last two pages of posts

UNVOTE: Nachomamma

VOTE: Elyse

Explain.

Hey Baezu it'd be nice if you did something for once. Thanks.

Now here is the point; This looks like distancing to the extreme; Elyse continually has thrown suspicion on Baezu while never really pushing it; she never voted her, now when the Elyse wagon happened Baezu jumped on as can be seen in a quote above (462 is the vote post) Baezu did this as a retaliation for Elyse throwing so much suspicion her way (yes scum do this it can be frustrating when people are throwing suspicion at you constantly because they are your buddy). See how Baezu is in fact the only person not to explain their Elyse vote now? yeah, Elyse doesn't push on Baezu or really draw attention to her even when her constant accusations would suggest Baezu to be Elyse's top scumread. 524 also is interesting wording when you look at things in this light.

Throw in Red Dragon who is defending her due to poor reasoning (his words Elyse ) When he couldn't see BP's no lynch idea was just poor reasoning and we have linked the three together.

I made the case on Elyse, she is independently very scummy, this should show the benefits of lynching her today and guide you all tomorrow, watch out for Nacho I am not convinced he is town but if Elyse flips scum he is town guaranteed.

[Slandaar]

Please just lynch Elyse people.

She is like the kingpin, everything falls into place when she flips.

[Slandaar]

Could you already point out how the falling into place-thing would happen for the scenario where she flips scum and for the scenario where she flips town? No harm in doing that in advance, right?

Scum: Baezu and Dragon
Town: Uh won't happen. Baezu, PV, Cher.

[Slandaar]

Just lynch one of RD/Baezu/Elyse

[Slandaar]

Baezu?

[Slandaar]

Baezu is odd night cop gets no result on n1.
Elyse: immma miller JOAT I gonna vig tonight and prove I am town!

Well guess whats gonna happen if Baezu is town? Its all so very very convenient.

Let me think a bit about this and the merits of massclaiming.

Elyse: Why did you not claim miller in your first post?

[Slandaar]

The mod just informed me that I actually told him that I would investigate Slandaar.

Why would the Mod do this?

It would actually be interfering with the game.

The reason I was going to investigate him was because he was a null for me and I wanted to confirm or deny whether or not he's town. The mod just informed me that I actually told him that I would investigate Slandaar. Again, same reasoning for investigating him.

slandaar town

[Slandaar]

Lets just massclaim that is the solution and saves a lot of hassle.

RD
PV
Ztife
Cher
Sunny
Nacho
Stranger
Grim
Me

Massclaim allows us to find out what is going on NOW and that is important. Do not try to be clever and claim VT as a PR, we will be confirm towning Elyse/Baezu if there are not enough PR claims so do NOT fakeclaim as town. Doing so is hugely detrimental to the town, assumptions will be made based on what is claimed, by faking all you do is ensure those assumptions are wrong.

[Slandaar]

My favorite role is cop because they win with the town but they have access to more information. When you play cop you have to analyze everyone's plays to try and figure out other town PRs as well as mafia and to know who to investigate at night.

My favorite role would have to be vig. I like being able to kill someone without anyone else weighing in.

See its funny because neither has said they breadcrumbed their role here.

[Slandaar]

Elyse's claim can't really be checked tonight for the same reasons Baezu's claim couldn't be checked. I'm always very wary of millers.
But, why would she ask not to be checked, if she knew the mafia had a blocker?

To try and sound town. 'HEY GUYS I AM A PR' she did have a lot of heat on her and then today was all 'I will explain it tomorrow!'

I have played a lot of mini normals and never seen such a ridiculous claim as Elyse's in them. Never. It just looks to me like she had to make up a claim to fit what she said so she came up with miller JOAT ... with a vig shot that amazingly can't go through if Baezu is town while it also gives her a free pass today.

[Slandaar]

M

eh.

I

only know

L

ike Kattaze and that's it.

L

ike I usually know almost

E

veryone.

R

andom playerlist.

VOTE: Kattaze

Here's my breadcrumb btw.

See I have huge issues with this.

Why if you are breadcrumbing like this did you not breadcrumb your FULL ROLE?
Why did you not claim in your first post you are a miller?

It is just such a good defence as scum to do this... just leave out the role so you can choose that later.

[Slandaar]

Oh come on. There wasn't much I could say with the letters J O A T that wouldn't look obvious.

It's really not that hard

Just so you guys all know On the 10th I Am not going To have much internet access.

Why didn't you claim in your first post? I see you keep avoiding this question.

[Slandaar]

Let us assume you are a miller, you breadcrumbed as such, why did you decide to do that?

[Slandaar]

I already anticipated this, son. You literally do this every game.

lol

I do it when I feel it is most beneficial and right now is a very beneficial time as it clears up a lot of confusion.

Assuming things go according to your plan this will only ensure we reveal our town PRs, and assuming what baezu said is true about RB this will fuck us up bad.
Although, if its an RB/odd cop/JOAT miller I would expect a weak third town PR. Revealing this 3rd town PR would only fuck things up more.

OK

Well, you have managed to make a good setup spec assumption, I agree, there is only one more PR IF note the if, IF both Elyse and Baezu are town. If they are both town, then it helps in a lot of ways.

We can analyse wagons with a lot more information a lot earlier, We can focus all of our attentions on finding scum instead of PR claims, It just generally narrows down the lynch pool and thus increases the chance to find scum.

When one or both are scum, what happens? lots of PR claim, we know there is then scum in the PR, we can make a sensible conclusion as to how many and then depending on this we can either lynch in the PR's (only if there is 2/3 scum) or we can lynch from the VT claims (if only one PR claim is going to be scum)

This means we again have narrowed down the lynch pool and are making much more informed lynches.

The only negative is sure scum know who are the PR's. But that really doesn't matter as scum can only kill one PR a day and IF Elyses claim is legit, then we won't have a doc etc it will be an even night watcher is my guess or something similar.

[Slandaar]

Let us assume you are a miller, you breadcrumbed as such, why did you decide to do that?

So people would believe me later when I claimed.

OK and when would you need to claim?

[Slandaar]

The other good thing about having a joat and a tracker

What?

[Slandaar]

am investigated

And that means the cop claimed because you didn't claim Miller.

So, what benefits does breadceumbing have over claiming Miller?

[Slandaar]

It avoids pointless discussion at the beginning of the game about my miller status.

And even if claiming is optimal play, why am I scum for not playing optimally?

There isn't any discussion to ever be had when you claim early;
You are either town and a miller or scum gambitting the only way to work it out is judge you based on your play.

OK lets run through some things

You must have known it is important to cover yourself incase a cop investigates you hence the breadcrumb.The breadcrumb itself is useless absolutely useless unless there is a cop in the setup who investigates you. During any other situation Massclaim or Wagoned JOAT is your claim, Miller is not going to do anything. Breadcrumbing miller is very weak because it does not lock you into a ROLE Joat is your ROLE Miller is not.

However now lets think about it from your perspective as scum makes a lot more sense breadcrumb miller, if there is a cop, you show it and voila! maybe it works maybe it doesn't but can't hurt right?

So, what do I actually think at present...

I do not like either claim, however, the 2 actually work in tandem quite well, in fact the setup spec being a ScumRoleblocker, an odd night cop a Miller JOAT and then another PR which I have strong inclinations will be an even night something (watcher my guess) makes a lot of sense.

And... considering noone has counterclaimed either of you, I am going to go with both town.

So, who is actually scum...

VOTE: Red Dragon

[Slandaar]

Its probably better not to vig anyone; Use the track.

[Slandaar]

The reason it is not worth vigging is because the vig targets are obvious - literally everyone in this game has the same scum suspects (from a pool of 4ish). In fact I will name them; Ztife, PV, RD, Cher.

Right? Everyone agrees with that I assume.

Which means they will probably be lynched anyways, thereby you really gain nothing by vigging them instead of lynching while tracking can just plain find scum with some luck (huge gain)

Basically because we only get one vig shot and that vig shot puts town to even numbers you don't gain a kill by vigging, you just lose information regarding wagons and interactions (applies to whatever the target flips)

The only benefit to vigging is it confirms Elyse, but, we have already decided she is town so there isn't a need for that.

[Slandaar]

The point is that the scum she would vig would in fact have been lynched near enough guaranteed, but with a lynch we can look at interactions and look at wagon analysis etc also.

And we are not gaining a kill with the vig shot, it is either A lynch or a vig shot we literally lose a lynch for the vig shot due to the numbers being evened by the shot.

Of course likely what will happen is scum roleblock Elyse, scum kill Elyse, so it doesn't matter too much, still, track seems a ton better.

[Slandaar]

UNVOTE: RD

I want to hear from certain people, one of which is PV.

[Slandaar]

Note; most of this isn't actually worth reading, the initial part is where I got my data from.

Future (6) - grimgroove, chernobylcitybus, BP, Baezu, Nachomamma8, Slandaar (L-1)

PV

BP (3) - Red Dragon, Ztife, Darthe
Baezu (2) - Future, thegooner
thegooner (2) - Elyse, PeregrineV

BP got off and PV got on soon after. Hence I have put PV on the end of the wagon.

Future: Grim/Cher/BP/Baezu/Nacho/Sland/PV

thegooner (5) - Elyse, Slandaar, grimgroove, Baezu, PeregrineV (L-2)

Baezu (2) - thegooner, chernobylcitybus
BP (1) - Ztife
Darthe (1)- SunnyDays
SunnyDays (1) - RedDragon
Elyse (1) - nachomamma8
RedDragon (1) - Darthe

Not Voting (1) - BP

Gooner: Elyse/Sland/Grim/Baezu/PV

Nachomamma8 (5) - grimgroove, Baezu, Nachopappa, Red Dragon, PeregrineV (L-2)

Red Dragon (3) - Darthe, Elyse, chernobylcitybus
Nachopappa (1) - Slandaar
BP (1) - Ztife
Darthe (1)- SunnyDays
Elyse (1) - Nachomamma8

Not Voting (1) - BP

Nacho: Grim/Baezu/Nacho/RD/PV

Elyse (4) - Baezu, Slandaar, SunnyDays, grimgroove
(L-3)

Nachomamma8 (3) - Red Dragon, PeregrineV, Ztife

Baezu (4) - Nachomamma8, Elyse, Nachopappa, Darthe (L-4)

Red Dragon (1) - chernobylcitybus

Not Voting (1) - BP

Elyse: Baezu/Sland/Sunny/Grim
Baezu: Nacho/Elyse/NachoP/Darthe

Baezu (5) - Nachomamma8, Elyse, Darthe, Ztife, chernobylcitybus (L-2)
Darthe (5) - Miss Stranger, grimgroove, Baezu, Nachopappa, SunnyDays (L-2)

Nachomamma8 (1) - Red Dragon
Elyse (1) - Slandaar

Baezu: Nacho/Elyse/Darthe/Ztife/Cher
Darthe: Stranger/Grim/Baezu/NachoP/Sunny

Darthe (7) - Miss Stranger, grimgroove, Baezu, Nachopappa, SunnyDays, chernobylcitybus, PeregrineV (LYNCH!)

Darthe: Stranger/Grim/Baezu/NachoP/Sunny/Cher/PV


----------------------------------------------

Analysis Part.

Biggest Wagons were...

Future: Grim/Cher/BP/Baezu/

Nacho

/Sland/PV
Gooner: Elyse/Sland/Grim/Baezu/PV

Nacho

: Grim/Baezu/NachoP/RD/PV

Darthe

: Stranger/Grim/Baezu/NachoP/Sunny/Cher/PV

---
Competing Wagons #1

Elyse: Baezu/Sland/Sunny/Grim
Baezu:

Nacho

/Elyse/NachoP/

Darthe

---
Competing Wagons #2

Baezu:

Nacho

/Elyse/

Darthe

/Ztife/Cher

Darthe

: Stranger/Grim/Baezu/NachoP/Sunny

OK so Facts First

PV has been involved on all the major wagons, LATE.

Future
Gooner
Nacho and Darthe who were both town.

Now, Future is obviously Sunny and Gooner is NachoP both of whom seem town to me.

A Theory;
There have been a lot of wagons, the chance of scum starting all these wagons is low, maybe the odd one, but mostly they will be started by town... so, first 3 slots on each major wagon (4+) lets see who comes up often (coming up often = town)

Grim x4
Cher
BP
Elyse x2
Sland x2
Baezu x3
NachoP x2
Stranger
Sunny

Yep, I like this list a lot note: Stranger/BP are different people hence are seperate for this (debate it all you want its my analysis). Have I discovered anything mindblowing? No. But what it shows is a good townlist

Grim/Elyse/Sland/Baezu/NachoP

Continuing on lets see who shows up in the slots past the first 3.

Baezu x2
Sland
PV x4
RD
NachoP
Sunny
Cher x2
Grim
Ztife

Baezu has been on lots early so being on them late isn't that much of an issue. PV needs lynching which was very aparent as soon as I saw his name on all 4. Cher looks a little worse but I don't know exactly how much weight to put into that.

I have been assuming every wagon was on town. Sunny/NachoP/Elyse/Baezu all seem town and then Darthe/Nacho are confirmed. I don't think too much changes if I am wrong regarding this, there have been so many big wagons this means scum are happily jumping on wagons (see the variation in names? its different a lot of the time) the biggest culprit being PV

Turns out this analysis was a case on PV.

Worth noting; if anyone wants to suggest I have this wrong, its not good to assume scum are not starting many wagons then think about this; if scum are starting even 50% of the wagons then it means they are making well reasoned logical cases on Town and the town are sheeping them around. No I don't think this is what is happening either and if it is well town is pretty screwed.

This is a lot to read so a

Summary

for people who don't want to read what isn't too interesting or useful;

Future: Grim/Cher/BP/Baezu/Nacho/Sland/

PV

Gooner: Elyse/Sland/Grim/Baezu/

PV

Nacho: Grim/Baezu/NachoP/RD/

PV

Darthe: Stranger/Grim/Baezu/NachoP/Sunny/Cher/

PV

Cher looks a little more suspect also.

Honestly mostly what this has done is reinforced certain ideas for example Elyse especially looks town for it.

I would be happy lynching PV today insted of RD.

[Slandaar]

PV/Ztife/Sunny need to post.

[Slandaar]

Hi Lucky.

Summary:
Scum is PV/RD/You

What do you think?

[Slandaar]

RD started 'avoiding' the thread long before that.

[Slandaar]

I have to say, I am not a fan of the me as scum theory. I have to look back and see what my previous slot owner was doing that garnered that, but it won't really make a difference since I am not him.

Why do you need to look at what your previous slot owner was doing?

[Slandaar]

Come and play with us Peregrine

[Slandaar]

Slandaar

I like the appearance of trying. You would think analysis would uncover information, and conclusions would be reached from that information. Instead, it looked like analysis but turns out it was only conclusion support? Why not just say so and give evidence as such instead of crouching it into "I'm going to look at this info and see what conclusions I can draw."?

Well that is exactly what I did; I looked at info and drew some conclusions from it. Its called wagon analysis, just so happens it supported what I had thought prior to doing it.

How about you do some wagon analysis?

[Slandaar]

Can you link me to this Red Dragon game also please.

[Slandaar]

Mostly for reads. I know I am town, so I need to see if the way he acted drew legit suspicion or if it would only make sense for scum to be attacking him. From what I read though, he did nothing outlandish or obvious that could be a scum tell. It means that the people on him had bad reasons,

Does it?

Perhaps they are good reasons. Scum are not going to make it obvious they are scum so I don't see how you checking to see the issues would make this less so or in fact maybe you missed the glaring issue. Perhaps you need to look at the accusations against him.

I actually like my previous owner's assessment of red and in his honor I will probably keep pushing that wagon.

One of his points was quite good.

Now if you can go and get your own read on RD by looking through his ISO/the game, and post it here that would be good.

[Slandaar]

The major points against you seem to be you pushed for a lynch of town. That doesn't make you scum, that's how the game is played.
If you mislynch once, don't quit the game. Learn from where you went wrong and keep looking.

No the major point is RD didn't want a Future lynch and then Sunny came in and townslipped everyone got off and he jumped on suggesting it had to happen because the wagon dispersing means its bussing. Plus he didn't want to wait for a replacement in the first place and the only reason I can think of for that is he didn't want someone to come in and look town.

Apparently he has played a few games with me which means he has experience so why would he be so adamant the wagon go through when he must have seen wagons die before; his logic dictates that no wagon can ever disperse which is clearly ridiculous.

[Slandaar]

VOTE: Lucky

[Slandaar]

P-Edit: I suppose that vote was to shock me into showing up, but I've been here.

Nope

I take it you have been reading the thread though? post your thoughts upto where you are at.

[Slandaar]

There's not enough information. Trying to do relational tells doesn't make sense without a scum flip. So his "analyis" is currently in the state of limbo, since I think all he did is say "Person X voted Person Y 3 times."

If you really think there is more there I guess I can look at it again. But it has to be worth the time and effort.

No I didn't say that.

I looked at who showed up late on all major wagons and who showed up early on them the idea behind it being scum will tend to show up later while town earlier.

You showed up on all 4 very late.

Does it really matter about the wagons alignments? we know for a fact 2 were town the other 2 are very likely town, however, lets say one is scum, what does that change?

[Slandaar]

Read from this post to Chernobyl's post in 805, you will see lucky is scum.

Everyone else who posts bar sunny who proddodges talks about the claim(s) Chernobyl doesn't. The reason this is so bad is because this is something as town you want to discuss and figure out. He left everyone else to figure out what to do with the claim(s) and that isn't town.

Lynch Lucky please.

[Slandaar]

PV YOU MUST CLAIM EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE FULL DOC IS YOUR CLAIM?

[Slandaar]

Odd cop, x-shot JOAT, and probably x-shot doc.

PereV is town. That claim makes sense and is actually in good timing.
Bye lucky.

Unvote, Vote: Lucky2u

No Ztife it does not make sense.

Elyse has claimed to be able to doc protect also; I do not think they can both be town assuming that is what he is claiming.

[Slandaar]

Wait

Why did you protect Grim and not the claimed cop PV?

[Slandaar]

lol

You are wrong, Elyse only claimed today hence PV could not know Elyse would protect Baezu.

[Slandaar]

And I had no clue whether the cop was the cop, but if he lived through the night he would be roleblocked or they would try to kill him later.

If she lived through the night and a doc didn't protect her then it would be because she was roleblocked if town yes.

But, why would you assume there is a roleblocker and not protect the Claimed Cop?

Why does try to kill later matter?

[Slandaar]

Because, in my experience day1 cop claims have pretty much 0 effectiveness. They are blocked

or killed

or scum. Sometimes scum takes a chance and let's the town cop do their thing, but since that would confirm another town player, it's dumb to let that happen.
Baezu lowered the chance of n1 kill by claiming odd cop.
So, I figured I'd protect a universal town read that is not up for a lynch later in the game.
And Baezu, if allowed to live at night, will have to be lynched.

Bolded: Not if you as a doc protect them. Are you a Doc Peregrine?

How did Baezu lower her chances by claiming ODD cop? she would get a result N1 I agree if she claimed EVEN but not ODD.

Why is it you have not been voting Baezu since she has been allowed to live?

[Slandaar]

How did Baezu lower her chances by claiming ODD cop? she would get a result N1 I agree if she claimed EVEN but not ODD.

Scum can ignore possible results from n2, so can decide to NK her n2 or n3 without fear of a result.

How?

You are a doc right? how does this magical kill happen if you don't allow it?

Why is it you have not been voting Baezu since she has been allowed to live?

Because if she's the odd cop then why would I want to lynch her? See 1004, but day2 is not the day to lynch the cop claim.

Well when is? tomorrow? nothing will have changed at that point, the day after?

What are you expecting from a cop claim who says they are roleblocked?

[Slandaar]

And you know all this. You've played enough mafia. Why are you acting like the cop claim has to die day2, and asking questions you already know the answer to?

Well lets recap, you said;

And Baezu, if allowed to live at night, will have to be lynched.

So, I am trying to work out if you believe that why you wouldn't vote her today.

Your explanation is what? That Later makes more sense ... because? why does it? Why if we are definitely lynching Baezu isn't it happening today? This is what you said, none of this is my theory, its yours.

Nice try at twisting things though

They are blocked or killed or scum.

Sometimes scum takes a chance and let's the town cop do their thing, but since that would confirm another town player, it's dumb to let that happen.

What PV is saying here is scum shouldn't let a cop live n1 without a RB because its dumb to give them results.

Baezu claimed odd cop, therefore, Baezu gets result on n1, which as PV said;

but since that would confirm another town player, it's dumb to let that happen

Yet somehow

Baezu lowered the chance of n1 kill by claiming odd cop.

Full cop results on D2: 1
Odd Night Cop results on D2: 1

HOW DOES ODD NIGHT COP REDUCE CHANCE OF N1 KILL? IT DOESN'T.

Its 'dumb' for scum to let a cop get results so scum will nk them or rb them, but seems there is no reason to assume rb you must as a doctor protect the claimed cop as the scum will likely shoot them. (or the claimed cop is scum)

In other words:
PV: I am the doc who didn't protect the claimed cop because I don't think scum would nk them n1 but its dumb for scum to leave a cop alive(PV is scum)

Docs must always protect claimed cops on n1 PV has played enough to know this.

VOTE: PV

[Slandaar]

Massclaim

Lucky
Ztife
RD
Nacho
Sunny
Me
Stranger
Grim

Lucky; claim.

[Slandaar]

How many more roles could we even have slandaar?

Thats what we are going to find out.

Someone explain to me why we are massclaiming.

9 alive 3 scum 6/3 mislynch today = 4/3 scum can counterclaim anything they like including Baezu, Baezu in that situation gets lynched guaranteed. In other words it is standard practice to massclaim the day before potential LYLO to avoid shenanigans and sort out any counterclaims without them being fatal.

We must find out if Baezu is town or scum for certain and the only way to do that is by massclaiming. If Baezu is town then there probably isn't any PR left anyways so what is the issue? none, what benefits? confirms Baezu as town today giving us more information to work with today while also preventing shenanigans (previously mentioned) from scum. If Baezu is scum we find that out today, but means PR's claimed and take nks but that is fine as then we have conftown and a scumlynch plus lots more information to work with today.

When Baezu is town massclaim is just positives when she is scum... we just found (and lynched) scum.

Your call for a mass claim seems weird with there clearly being one role or less left for town. It strikes me as someone who wants to show how town they are because noone accuses the guy who calls for a claim right? It's a slip up that is out of place.

I do it nearly every single (town) game of mine, so a slip up that I am town? yes. And actually you get a lot of heat doing it most of the time, which you wouldn't know because you obviously never do these things so nice made up accusation.

[Slandaar]

Massclaim allows us to find out what is going on NOW and that is important. Do not try to be clever and claim VT as a PR, we will be confirm towning Elyse/Baezu if there are not enough PR claims so do NOT fakeclaim as town. Doing so is hugely detrimental to the town, assumptions will be made based on what is claimed, by faking all you do is ensure those assumptions are wrong.

This is quite relevant also. Do NOT fakeclaim.

[Slandaar]

Here is the absolute minimal base theory as to why Massclaim is good for town;
The game of Mafia is based on an uninformed majority vs the informed minority thus proving information is power. By massclaiming, the uninformed become more informed and thus stronger.

The next step is working out optimal times to massclaim, not just to massclaim asap because we know we must massclaim at some point based on the above, the optimal time was yesterday in this game as it completely erradicates confusion at a confusing time and helps to unite the town but I anticipated too much resistance/heat for it as day 2 massclaims are not popular and thus did not pursue, today however, is when we absolutely must massclaim.

[Slandaar]

I know it has been said but that is a legitimately good case.

[Slandaar]

Yes just massclaim with Ztife going next before voting etc.

[Slandaar]

OK Good Ztife claimed VT

RD/Replacement next.

[Slandaar]

And you lynched our PR right after he claimed. In fact your shit about his "fakeclaim" is so crap I don't even wanna comment on it.

He fakeclaimed, I clearly tell people not to fakeclaim the lynch was actually correct. Nice stance though.

Why did it make sense Elyse has a doc shot and PV was claiming doc Ztife?

[Slandaar]

I think we can forgive you for abandoning us Stranger.

2 factors;
1. Why would it be PV that fake claimed and not elyze?

Uh because it WAS PV and not Elyse?

What don't you get about that? How is this a factor in anything?
You are trying to suggest you don't understand why it was PV not Elyse FINE, but the fact it that it WAS that way round. I looked at the claims and worked it out, PV fakeclaimed which should normally mean scum.

Why can't we have 2 "doc shots"? Both BG and Docs are essentially protect roles, would it have made any significant difference to the credibility of his claim in your eyes?

Yes. Having 2 docs is just not believable, a BG is a much weaker protection role.

[Slandaar]

OK Ztife he who suggests a full doc + (variation of) 1shot doc in a mini normal seems sensible

Go and find me a mini normal with such a setup.

[Slandaar]

Even if I did that, what's the point of it?

To show me what you are saying has merit and isn't just made up.

If you wish to take the high ground suggesting you were right about PV because of logic and not just luck (or you are scum) then show me a setup with both a full doc and a 1shot doc (or variation of)

[Slandaar]

The fact you didn't immediately I assume means you havn't been in one such setup so this may take you some time (WARNING: I very highly doubt one exists)

[Slandaar]

I haven seen one and I'm too lazy to find one. Even if one doesn't exist it doesn't mean it can't happen. There's no logic to setup speculation, and getting into this much detail is stupid. I don't agree with your train of thought, and I don't see the reason to prove anything. I just that think that x-shot cop, joat and odd cop is possible. It just makes balance sense to me. There's no rocket science logic to it.

OK here is some logic for you, if someone on day 1 claims doc, and someone else is a doc and counterclaims, are they both town or one is scum?

One is scum, clearly.

So, in this situation we have 1shot doc being counterclaimed and that is what it was by a full doc.

The obvious reason you do not put 2 docs in a game is because town will most likely lynch one when there is the claim/cc and then after that the other is nked netting a total loss to the town because the setup was terrible.

Why not you show me proof that this setup is impossible and has never ever happened before?

Sure

Proof this setup never happened before

Here are all the completed games on this site of mini normals, none have a full doc and then a second variation of a doc.

How would x-shot doc/full doc/BG differ in terms of setup possibility if you're logic is that "there can't be 2 protect abilities in the game"?

That is not what I said, I said there isn't 2 docs not 2 protect roles.

How about you give me a wall of text regarding how setups should be made and balance and stuff? Maybe we could also quote and study a couple of games and make good research material while the rest of the players sit around and lurk.

Also, why would I be right about PV if I were scum? What good would it have done for me to unvote him?

Because as scum you would know hes town and thus assume hes telling the truth. Pretty obvious.

You unvote because you assumed everyone else would as it seems the 'protown' thing to do.

Your reasoning of PV's fake claim depended highly on elyze's claim, according to your logic. This means that your confidence in PV being scum lies in your confidence in elyze being JOAT. How did you choose elyze over PV? How did you get that much confidence on elyze's claim AKA pv's fake claim? How do you explain 2 protection roles then?

Read my posts maybe?

This debate should have taken place D2. Town gets wrong reads. Town mislynches. Town makes mistakes. You made one. Get over your ego please. If you just wanna prove that you are "right" about PV's fake claim well congrats, you're right. Only reason why i would even bother replying is because nobody else in this game seems to wanna say anything, and you constantly draw the attention away from everybody else to your mass claiming and this.

I have been wrong about a fair few things this game, but that is something I was not wrong about I am simply stating fact. The point is you were wrong. And thus even when PV flips town you are the one who needs to explain your logic. There is no high ground for you to take on this matter.

[Slandaar]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=15351

That is a weak doc; close though!

There is a huge difference in how it works. Bit like how a bodyguard is different to a doc. I am surprised you even looked though. Anyways the point is that clearly it is not very likely lets not say impossible but very unlikely you have 2 docs, thus as I did I looked into the claims PV's made no sense, he got lynched and guess what? He flipped Bodyguard not Doctor.

So, why is it you just plain believed the claims and did not look into them? please show me a game where you have experienced 2 of the same PR.

[Slandaar]

It is not plausible. Doctors always protect the claimed cop n1 because of the value of the target. Especially an Odd cop where you could conceivably not protect n2 and then if scum kill her you still got the confirmed result from n1.

What is the point in doc protecting grim and letting scum shoot an odd cop on n1? Say Grim dies n1; Baezu gets her result n1 which is a perfectly good trade because you basically traded an obvtown for a (near) conftown. This is DOUBLY TRUE when you protect someone who claims cop and the scum try to kill them you have a confirmed town cop PLUS a confirmed town (near) from the n1 result.

Maybe Baezu is scum? Well maybe, but what happens when she comes in D2 with a guilty?

Doesn't matter when Baezu is scum or a claimed cop and you protect them n1 especially with the odd cop claim because in this case as said you don't even need to protect n2 and then can think on things more thoroughly if she is still alive n3 (would still protect mostly)

For example in this game Elyse flipped town which makes Baezu look very town, then PV would have been 'oh Baezu is cop protect n3'

Tell me CDB you are trying to argue it makes sense not to protect a claimed cop n1 as a FULL doctor?

I even looked into his reasoning for it, I did this because I understand its plausible but it is really terrible and the logic still needs to stack up (this is a quote)

'Sometimes scum takes a chance and let's the town cop do their thing, but since that would confirm another town player, it's dumb to let that happen.'

Therefore the only logical conclusion as a Doc who thinks this is to protect her n1 and I explained this clearly in my vote post.

So, short version, no his actions were not plausible from a doctor. If you need me to explain why he did what he did as a bodyguard (the logic is flawed but I can see where it comes from) then I will.

[Slandaar]

Anyways I forgot Sunny claimed earlier, he can still claim but it doesn't matter order of claims now

I am a VT and a neighbour with Grim and Stranger.

Will post more later about this as I have things to say but I don't really have the time at present.

[Slandaar]

Me; I like being a town neighbour because I enjoy having a thread to scumhunt in during the night; gives me something to do; and I prefer the scumhunting aspect of the game over the imascumbag side hence town neighbour.

I guess neighbour isn't actually a role but meh I am counting it.

[Slandaar]

Eh I know Grim and Strangers claims but feel it bad etiquette to claim for them. Definitely those who don't know need to wait for them.

Lucky, do YOU think one of the neighbours is scum?

[Slandaar]

Well my short experience on the site is that mods love to put scum in neighboring relationships. I have no idea how the neighbors were decided this game though so it could be random, Idk. I ask you because I wanted to see if you were thinking one of your neighbors was scum, and I hope your not town reading them solely because they are your neighbors.

Where are we at with the claiming? Let's not test the mom's leniency with the deadline and get moving.

You kind of dodged the question.

I am not reading my neighbours based on the fact they are my neighbours we have 195 posts in our qt of interactions and then there is this thread also. I am fully aware hoods can be generated randomly.

Deadline leniency isn't an issue considering deadline isn't set while Stranger is being replaced.

[Slandaar]

hahahahahahahahahahhahahaha

No.

I will be laughing all day thanks to you though lucky!

VOTE: Lucky

I will show it later but during PV claim lucky defends him with some logic which is wrong but also waffles in 'or maybe its a scumslip' then vanishes to return very soon after I voted PV, this is scum; he didn't try to figure out the claim (neither did Ztife)

He also tried to faketowntell by asking me if I thought there is scum in the hood which obviously the answer is yes (as he knows) and my neighbours know. When I flipped the question on him more waffle without taking stance 'oh setup this and setup that'

I might make a full case later but... for now just as Luckys good friend Ztife said;
Bye Lucky!

[Slandaar]

He also tried to faketowntell by asking me if I thought there is scum in the hood which obviously the answer is yes (as he knows) and my neighbours know.

Why do you think this?

Well why would someone ask if I think my neighbours are scum when I hadn't said so in thread prior, surely if I thought one was scum I already would have mentioned it hence the question isn't asked more the question of 'what was discussed etc' is asked

But amazingly, I do think one is scum. He was trying to faketowntell he doesn't know whats been going on in the qt call it my 6th sense, I can absolutely tell that was why he asked.

[Slandaar]

It wasn't in anger try joyfully voted.

I like how your reasoning as to why me is my reaction to your 'throw' the order of the events doesn't work.

[Slandaar]

@Slandaar - actually I was trying to ask why you thought one of the people in the neighborhood was scum.

Because Stranger read the entire thread and then had to go and ISO people to get reads she didn't have any prior to that. She had no reads after reading an entire thread; Its Fake. Her town read on me included I was right on Darthe which is clearly Fake also. (in the qt)

I do not think she is town.

[Slandaar]

Chernobyl was the first person to unvote Sunny who I believe did not understand the reasoning behind it, looks more like a follow Sland/Grim to me.

Also; someone tell me they remember he said 'now that you are all seeing (i think it was sunny) as town look at Baezu!'

[Slandaar]

Oh? In what way does that order of events not work.

You are suggesting you chose me for something which happened in the future.

Obviously that cannot be true.

[Slandaar]

As for why I threw it on to Slandaar... Well if you notice I didn't vote him did I? Yet his reaction to me even joking about it was to quick vote me in anger.

Oh I must be mistaken then.

What were you saying here?

[Slandaar]

That I wanted your reaction, a common mafia tactic. The confusion seems to be in that post I was answering the why of the action, not the why of the who.

OK lets say that is what you were doing, what are your results? What did you expect from town-me and scum-me?

[Slandaar]

Also, Lucky, if you could explain to me why you did hammer Ztife when he hadn't claimed that would be good too. You don't think it wise to demand a claim before hammer?

Stu can you tell me your thoughts on the neighbour hood qt and post them in this thread please.

[Slandaar]

I agree with you on the Darthe issue which as you know is one thing I accused your predecessor of; it makes no sense to include that in a townread.

What do you think of the other reason she had me as town?

[Slandaar]

Go and have a look for yourself make up your own mind.

[Slandaar]

Read from here

[Slandaar]

How is that obvious to you Stu? explain it in simple terms.

[Slandaar]

It's clear that he misread his role PM. That was my first thought as soon as I saw the post. Can you answer the question from my previous post?

Uh it doesn't make sense from our POV he thinks he has hidden powers? how is it obvious?

Also, that wasn't a rhetorical question? lol

[Slandaar]

Also, how was Red Dragon not lynched afterwards?

People need to post. I'm not waiting any longer for my vote.

VOTE: Lucky

I find this... interesting to say the least.

[Slandaar]

Yes that is correct the VT role pm

Where did you get the idea to check that?

[Slandaar]

So, you read that pm, thought 'thats odd wording' then later when seeing the Sunny post everything just made sense?

[Slandaar]

I think you are just lying obviously proving it is impossible but I can just sense it. I will, however, make a case based on facts later.

VOTE: Stu

[Slandaar]

Just gonna keep on promising content but not delivering because thats how I roll.

Problem?

[Slandaar]

But yes I agree its annoying that only the 3 of us post.

[Slandaar]

Yes that would be true if number 2 is in fact correct which I won't be assuming, however, it would also mean you or lucky is scum so I don't see what your point is.

[Slandaar]

Stu how much of the thread have you read? be precise please.

[Slandaar]

Hello dears, I've been reading the topic since I applied for replacement but it's going to take me a few hours more, probably. Once I'm done I'll give my initial thoughts!

Okay, I'm mostly done reading this, it took me a lot more than I initially thought.. -_-

Well, I better get some sleep now, I'll try to post my reads as soon as possible, and perhaps a collective table with everyone's reads so we can compare and analyse easier. Good night ^^;

She then goes and posts ISO reads on people, this reads very fake and manufactured. Note it took THIRTY minutes between her first read and second after reading an entire thread.

She admitted in the hood qt which Grim's slot can confirm, she had no reads and went to ISO people to get reads but this contradicts;

I'll try to post my reads as soon as possible

Which implies she has reads already.

When Grims slot gets here to confirm this I expect Stu dead.

[Slandaar]

To expand on this earlier point;

Also, how was Red Dragon not lynched afterwards?

Red Dragon is obvscum how wasn't he lynched??!!!

Can you answer the question from my previous post?

Sland answer my question how on earth isn't RD dead???

People need to post. I'm not waiting any longer for my vote.

VOTE: Lucky

Vote Lucky!

If RD was as obvious as Stu was implying why isn't he voting that slot? (I think its CDB)

And then we have him accusing me of promising but not delivering content, I reply saying yep thats my plan got a problem? and he just lets it go which is amusing but also very weak.

[Slandaar]

What? where is your good case against lucky?

[Slandaar]

OK lets start a new trend.
We will each grade people based on content from TODAY only (note your grade post counts as content) and the person(s) who are in the bottom 3 most often are the only lynch candidates for the day.

So my list is thus;

1. Slandaar - Continually provides amazing content.
2. Stu - this was close between 2 and 3 but I just feel Stu's effort edges it
3. Lucky - produced some fine posts however the competition for top 3 is fierce and only lost out narrowly to #2
4. Shamrock - Sparse content posting but there is some stuff there.
5. CDB - he named a suspect
6. Sunny - Well...he proddodged.
7. Grim - Not posted once.

So, this means todays lynch is currently between CDB/Sunny and Grim. Not going to end up well for CDB with that competition.

(the real point to this post is to demonstrate how 3 people have literally not posted once which is ridiculous and Shamrock has done little more)

[Slandaar]

Grim - who is this guy?

How much of the game have you read Lucky?

[Slandaar]

Fair enough. Answer the question anyway.

[Slandaar]

My list isn't who I want to lynch its an activity based list, not scum based list, I made it to jab at the inactives more than anything, I didn't expect you to post your own (Stu) but thats fine!

Anyways back on topic, Lucky could you answer my question please.

[Slandaar]

1185 wasn't a serious post.

[Slandaar]

Who do you think is scum other than Lucky Grim?

[Slandaar]

It is possible CDB or Shamrock came in and just bussed Ztife who was already dead. I have been waiting for both of them to show they can produce similar levels of content today and neither have managed it (yet) as obviously making a good case on scum is easy when you are scum because you are making a case on someone you know is scum, making cases on people you know are town is the hard part.

But I think more likely scum is just Lucky/Stu and that quote you quoted is one reason.

[Slandaar]

Yeah OK Shamrock picked up on 976 as I did (when I said bye lucky) that did look like a bus to me.

I want to see CDB post today but lynching lucky is obviously fine with me.

[Slandaar]

I don't see why it can't be a bus, the interactions between BP and Ztife felt different to BP and RD for example who was arguing a similar thing.

[Slandaar]

What is your read on Future, Red Dragon
And what about you Ztife? How do you feel about the wagon behind his name and the people on it?

I mean, he isn't the worst d1 lynch. But I think bp is miles better.

Y U focus on me so much?

This in particular is a good example of the difference.

[Slandaar]

I don't even know what to think anymore

Grim is town, Sunny is town, I am obviously town so its 2 from 4.

I am going to post my thoughts on things later including what I think makes people scum and what I think makes people town if for no other reason than to ensure everyone knows I am town beyond doubt.

[Slandaar]

OK I said I would do this yesterday but its time consuming to do and things happen, anyways, I am going to go through the 4 suspects starting with the BP/Stranger/Stu slot.

Now Firstly, I wish to say the main reason I had a townread on this slot for large periods is in the hood qt early on I asked BP to claim and he didn't understand what I was asking for. Now this to me seemed like a townslip because I feel as town he would think I already know his role; Neighbour while as scum I think he would have an answer or think of one etc.

This is all good, the trouble is, I feel in posting later on from the slot it mostly comes across as scum. I just don't know if I want to ignore the above its possible he just didn't know as scum what I was asking I suppose if he was a complete newbie (this is what I have begun to think).

Grim you can post your thoughts as you are the only other person who actually KNOWS what I am talking about.

Now looking at the actual posting from the slot;

Dragon you still have not enlightened me as to what the random votes in this game achieved.

you are seeing it right now.

Discussion. Gives you more than talking about what the weather is outside or what D&D PC you like to play.

Actually, my No-Lynch post created most of the discussion. RVS achieved nothing until then. Unless Future actually turns out to be scum.

The thing with this is he seems to be attempting to try and claim credit for something he purposefully did. Yes it did generate discussion but that wasn't his goal.

Again, no one had said anything about that. But Baezu can't wait to get to the lynch. He is eager, people, to lynch someone, and I don't know if he's a townie in desperate need for a scum lynch or scum wanting to lynch an innocent.

You may need to go and look at this post but BP basically posted a wall on Baezu and then concludes with a very fencesitting stance of 'Well after all that I don't know what to think'

BTW, my possible town / guilty list:

TOWN: Slandaar, Grimgroove
GUILTY: Darthe, Future, Baezu

These ones haven't posted in a way as to give me a read: Elyse, chernobylcitybus, Peregrine V and thegooner.

Also: torn about Red Dragon.

Obviously I am writing this going through his ISO but this is interesting. He missed Ztife.

I tend to think that is a towntell; he missed someone else which I think is Nachos slot.

And researching Ztifes posting history tells us he hadn't posted at that point. That does look town definitely more likely to forget Ztife as town than when hes your buddy.

Well, I just want to prompt anyone from hammering Future. It's unwise to do so this early.

I voted for a reason. Future still hasn't spoken for himself. I want to hear from him before unvoting or going for a lynch.

It is pretty bad to leave your vote on someone while also saying you don't want a hammer; unvote if you don't want a hammer. This was obviously on Future who is now Sunny who is town so there is obvious benefits for scum leaving their vote on the wagon while trying to act protown by saying 'no hammer yet!'

What is your read on Future, Red Dragon
And what about you Ztife? How do you feel about the wagon behind his name and the people on it?

I mean, he isn't the worst d1 lynch. But I think bp is miles better.

Y U focus on me so much?

This post is quite a big thing for a few reasons.

1. It is one of the few things which makes RD look town which I will get to at some point
2. It is in fact a scumtell in newbies, it is not actually known on MS as far as I am aware but elsewhere people do use this as a tell and it does work. RD responded with the WHY ME???? post which is the tell in purest form (implying he knew of it)
3. It also shows a difference in how BP interacts with RD and Ztife(known scum) with Ztife its quite serious but with RD its why me?

Now if you actually look through Ztifes ISO, the attack on BP is actually very short lived its in fact 1 post. ONE then a brief one later, there isn't really an intensity to it.

Then Stranger replaced BP

I have said this before however, I do not like how she entered the game said she had read the ENTIRE thread then had to go and ISO each person individually to get reads. It is very methodical and seems very fake to me.

It also reads like she has reads in this post;

Well, I better get some sleep now, I'll try to post my reads as soon as possible, and perhaps a collective table with everyone's reads so we can compare and analyse easier. Good night ^^;

But she had to ISO people saying in the hood qt she had no reads.

Now, the order of her reads, Elyse->Baezu I understood was due to wagons but how was Darthe third and why did she never finish these ISO's?

Again in the QT I know some of you don't have access to this but if you do not believe me ask Grim, she accused Darthe after he flipped town of bullshitting.

This clearly is untrue, he did not do such a thing, he was town that is not a town reaction at all.

I was waiting for Baezu to answer the question, but her response is pretty satisfactory. I think her claim is genuine. I've been suspecting it since the beginning, but kept my mouth shut. The way she requested doctor protection several times before even claiming was a huge giveaway. Baezu is 100% town in my eyes.

It's beyond question she was roleblocked.

This post is terrible. How is calling for doc protection any kind of sign she is cop and not just scum faking town?

Obviously to scum it is a lot more clear Baezu is a PR.

Now onto her read on me, in the qt as I have said she included 'I was right on Darthe' How does that make me town? its so FAKE.

If you actually look it is like a slow bus on Ztife she was doing voting him on the day he was almost guaranteed to die straight away and not before then.

Onto Stu who I have posted most of what I think today so you can reread today if you like but something I have had in my mind recently s he keeps trying to pull people away from lucky.
Example 1.

So there are 3 possible scenarios right now(again, assuming a trio):

1. There are two inactive mafia.
2. There is one inactive and one active mafia.
3. There are two active mafia.

3 is least likely considering how this day phase has gone so far. 1 is likely, but 2 seems the most likely. So as we both continue our bickering there is at least one mafia that is hiding from any trouble, and not offering anything this day phase to go off of in lylo.

It feels like he was trying to divert me in particular into the lurkers when by his numbers one of the actives is scum too so what is the point in the post in the first place? (except if hes scum to divert)
Example 2.

Grim, help me lynch CDB. We can get Lucky tomorrow.

Now in favour of Stu today are 2 small things from him 1. in the qt posting multiple times in a row to try to talk to me/grim and the second is he thinks his case on lucky was good, I find that is more a town trait at least I think it is the mentality that as town you believe your cases are good even if they are not (you wouldn't make them otherwise) but as scum its more 'I made a case whatever'

Overall this just kind of shows how I have been thinking about this slot through the game, it outlines very well how I had BP as town but it also show how the read degraded with Stranger and why I still think the slot is scum but I am not completely sure especially with the BP reads thing.

tl;dr: Slandaar is town, if you want to work with me to figure out the scum you should read this and discuss otherwise just assume I am town and do what you want.

[Slandaar]

Next is Chernobyl and Lucky

Yay, wagons
VOTE: Future

Do you have intent to hammer, Elyse?

If so I'd like Future to claim.

I don't like this post much mainly due to him never actually saying what he finds scummy about Future.

Nobody hammer Future yet, please.

Does the same thing as BP, not unvoting while als asking for no hammer, it just doesn't make sense not to unvote if you don't want a hammer again on Future who is Sunny who is town so the scum motivation for such an act is obvious.

Baezu Case
I like this case and is a good reason I felt Cher is town early on.

Interestingly you can flip a lot of these points now we know Baezu is town by saying; Cher knew Future was town hence he can make the case easier.

This is furthered by a quote I just cannot find and I think must have been lost during the crash

@Grim:

Do you remember Cher saying something like 'Now that you guys think Future/Sunny is town take a look at Baezu!'?

I remember that specifically because it read so ugly.

In all the Day 1 play from this slot is fairly townish I feel just how he doesn't care much and jokes about a fair amount plus a fairly good case on Baezu.

Now

Who did you check Baezu?

VOTE: RedDragon
Because reasons

Elyse claims

I've been thinking that he is scum for pretty much the entire game, but for some reason his wagons just slowly dissipate without him actually doing anything at all.

(regarding RD)

I very much see this as scum, there is no interest in the claim and figuring out the alignment (especially of Elyse), none, instead vote parks on RD.

Then we have Lucky.

PV claims and lucky posts;

So the claims now are doc, cop, and JOAT?

He then makes a couple more posts not about the claim or trying to work things out or what he thinks about it.

However SOON after I made my decision that PV was scum;

VOTE: PV

Makes sense and I like a wagon that isn't me.

Amazing.

Now this is really damning because BOTH Cher and Lucky committed this same crime. When you are town and something happens like someone claims a PR you generally talk about it ask questions and post what you think you do NOT let everyone else do it.

This is the main reason I think the slot is scum.

We then get his infamous hammer vote on Ztife and what reads to me as very fake 'hahaha' the next day followed by some ridiculous nonsense about lynching me!
(seriously it does read very fake)

Other than that he hasn't done a lot he seems a bit lost because town are circling him and only Stu who I think is his buddy is a viable lynch option obviously though he has now unvoted him.

It has also been brung up previously (by Shamrock which is townpoints) but the way in which Ztife voted Lucky felt like a bus;

So the claims now are doc, cop, and JOAT?

Odd cop, x-shot JOAT, and probably x-shot doc.

PereV is town. That claim makes sense and is actually in good timing.
Bye lucky.

Unvote, Vote: Lucky2u

It is quite out of the blue and the 'bye lucky' just reads like buddies.

I might make a full case later but... for now just as Luckys good friend Ztife said;
Bye Lucky!

Just so you can see that 2 people think the same thing about that post (me being town).

[Slandaar]

I'll sheep you if you don't hammer me Slandaar

Who do you think is scum? who is town?

[Slandaar]

Will do Shamrock and CDB tomorrow.

Shamrock is going to be a huge wall I expect...

[Slandaar]

Lucky explain to me your second? post of the day please, I know you have before but do it again.

Why did you choose me? What was the purpose of it? What did you get from it?

[Slandaar]

Sunny have you read my walls? do you have an opinion?

[Slandaar]

17 hours till deadline?

OK

CDB is scum I am sure of it now hes doing his lurkaderp scum thing, he bussed when he came in and is now doing nothing.

VOTE: CDB

[Slandaar]

I expect everyone to pile on him now.

He has posted LITERALLY NOTHING ALL DAY hes coasting on his bus from yesterday on Ztife who was DEAD ALREADY.

[Slandaar]

So, who is about? we MUST lynch someone.

[Slandaar]

What Shamrock said. Why I thought noone would do that especially on an alt... I will leave that unexplained.

[Slandaar]

Oh, wow. Well done, MattP. I kind of agree with you that it feels a little bit weird faking newbieness as scum but I think the same goes for town, tbh, and it's hard to know where the line should be drawn. I know your intentions weren't bad so it's fine and you played it excellently. V/LA matching up on alts is one of those things that I think you notice and worry about when you do it but that nobody else actually really sees, having experienced it myself. I would never have guessed, I don't think!

I'm really sorry that I slipped out of activity here and got lynched - in a really busy summer, this just got a bit lost. Apologies.

Ugh, come on this is too nicey nice. He wasn't going to act like a newbie if he was town, this is blatantly obvious by the fact he outed the alt in the first place, he now had the perfect alt to take into a town game and act the newbie but he didn't take it.

I am almost positive its against site rules to create an account and join as a newbie in newbie games if you have another account; I don't see any difference to what happened here except the obvious; its not a newbie game but the principle of why you don't do it should still apply.

At the very least its not playing in the spirit of the game and gaining huge advantages playing on an alt which is clearly just gamebreaking. What happens to the alt now? lost in time I assume, so he is going to create another one and do the same thing again when he rolls scum. Noone else is doing this they have their experience on display; game breaking.

[Slandaar]

If you had been an actual newbie or someone new to the site, its different and completely fine its lame, really lame, but they can't do it again and so they got their cheap win but now they have meta.

This doesn't apply to you. You got your cheap win and now you can go and do it again on another alt.

This isn't a grey area.

[Slandaar]

I suppose it isn't clear; it is bad for the game as a whole if lots of people were doing this sort of thing on alts. Do you want to be playing in games where people are pretending to be newbies constantly? no, neither do I.

Want the big picture? genuine newbies suffer for it because when that happens they get lynched when they shouldn't.

So, where do we draw the line? do we say well a couple people a month can do it but then the 3rd person is criminal!!! Apparently.

[Slandaar]

Uh... CDB?

On another note, I don't think scum should be allowed to copy paste into the scum qt from hood qt. I don't see why they should be allowed while I can't copy paste into the game thread, why not just give them all access to it if you are allowed to copy/paste the whole qt there anyways?