Mini 1627: Ninja Mini Mafia

[acryon]

VOTE: Varsoon
I like where this is going.

[acryon]

So is it possible to get you to put him on L-1?
I'd like to see if we can get hammer intent and force a claim.

Um, probably not. I don't see the point in forcing him to claim this early when we know nothing about anybody. If he's a PR, that would be extremely detrimental to town. If he's not a PR, it's still detrimental to town even if he's VT because it only helps scum to know that at this point.

If people really want to put Varsoon at L-1, I'd hope for a hell of a lot more of a case than just "I want to see if we can get a claim" or "you only voted me after someone else did".

Early day 1 voting is all about eliciting reactions, which Varsoon was giving and I wanted to see more. I am

not

interested in some hyper-wagon on Varsoon, which is terrible.

UNVOTE:

[acryon]

I think it is healthy for town to get some claims each day

This is a joke right?

Thor is trying to stop wagons without claiming towncred.

Thor was doing the exact opposite of trying to stop a wagon.

My vote is now serious. Varsoon only voted me aftwr someone else did.

Trying to turn the heat up on D1. This guy is really scum like.

Do you see no benefit in turning the heat up to get reactions?

[acryon]

Whoops, I should have previewed. So what is your current read on Thor randomidget?

[acryon]

Thor, is null-town. I don't see scum displaying that level of idiocy.

How do you reconcile this with his long experience with the game?

[acryon]

No im not really seeing how claiming a serious vote d1 is a town move. Just too early I feel to be throwing anything serious around.

I disagree completely. It's never too early to throw something serious around. The quicker we leave RVS and D1 fluff, the better. If someone dropping an accusation like that gets us there, then great. Not only does it get us out of RVS, but it draws reactions that RVS votes probably wouldn't.

Your post seems to imply that it is bad for us to leave RVS and that people should only be screwing around and random-voting up until a certain point, which is actually not a town mindset.

[acryon]

VOTE: gamsimbre

Reason? Also, can you answer the question I asked you before.

[acryon]

I think Drake meant serious votes on

page

1.
/shrugs.

I'm suspicious of how fast my wagon was to grow and I'd say there was scum there, but I'm super biased about this.
Does anyone else think so?

It wasn't on page 1 though..

I wouldn't rush to any conclusions about your wagon. It's too early to determine intent based on that wagon without other activity to view it in the context of.

Looking into Goblin's post history, it looks like it's not a player we should expect elaborate content from, which is unfortunate, so I don't think that should be held against the slot. I do, however, think it is still required that you at least give some reasoning for your vote and answer questions that are asked of you.

[acryon]

V/LA until 12/1

[acryon]

Sorry for the wall, but missing ~9 pages can do that.

Looking into Goblin's post history, it looks like it's not a player we should expect elaborate content from, which is unfortunate, so I don't think that should be held against the slot. I do, however, think it is still required that you at least give some reasoning for your vote and answer questions that are asked of you.

Did you meta him? What games led you do believe that we should not expect contect from him here? Did you also take note that he's St. Constantine the Hermit?

Not to be rude, but isn't "looking into Goblin's post history" the definition of meta? Just look at his general post history and you'll see a good handful of naked votes, and a decent amount of one line posts.

127 is really weak by boonskies, and mispresenting people to make them look scummy is always bad.

But more importantly, do you disagree with the reads I've posted. That would actually be more helpful.

I disagree here, because I actually think reasoning/intent are far more important than the reads themselves. Town shouldn't be trying to get people to agree with their town-reads; they should be scum-hunting. This pings

a bit

.

Okay so then in your last post you don't like that I have two town reads by page six, but you don't disagree with my town reads? And it's somehow opportunistic for me to have two town reads? I don't think that word means what you think it means.

One can agree with another's reads, but disagree with the the way they were presented or the intentions behind presenting them in a certain way. For the record, I don't think having two town-reads by page six is scummy, but I also don't think it can't be scummy.

I'm not going to claim regardless, so if you all want a mislynch on me, I suggest doing it while I'm teaching and not around today.

Yeah, doing a fakeclaim super early on Day 1 is tough because it locks you in if you manage to survive.
So, basically you're just claiming scum. Got it.

You must be kidding.

Why don't we just push everyone to L-1 so we can ALL claim, right??

Pretty sure the following got asked/answered already, Allyra (especially 'cus I was the one asking the same questions, lol)

oh.

I find this interchange funny.
Because it basically is Varsoon realizing that Allyra hasn't read anything very well - yet not bothering to ask her about it.
Is it just that he's happy to have her townread?
Or is he town who can't figure out how to pressure someone for skimming the game to try to figure out if they're scum or not?

This I agree with. Something also felt off to me about this exchange as it was happening.

2). I wasn't skimming the game. I'll admit to maybe missing something as I was drinking wine, but even then I didn't ask those questions because I missed that they had been asked due to "brutal" skimming. I was responding to things as I was reading them. Are you saying my reads shouldn't be listened to because you think I didn't read the first few pages of the game before I replaced in well enough?

I think that's perfectly fair if he thinks you didn't read it fully. Why would you put much stock in the reads of someone with, by their choice, imperfect information?

I don't like konowas entrance post.

What don't you like about it? The flippancy?

Edit: Ok, just saw your answer, and it isn't good. This is something that newb-town would maybe pick up as a scum-tell, and I'm not sure of your experience, so I don't know how that plays into this.

Just so you know Thor IS scum and I'd wager that boonskies is his partner.

You're welcome.

Oh I'll throw in konowa for a potential third.

Putting Konowa on your scum-list for his one comment seems very weak.

Eh, if I was scum with Thor and you voted him, I would have voted him as well. I'm a troll like that.

But since that's not the case...congratulations, Thor. You earned yourself a town read from me.

And Thor with my response to these posts:

Whut?

I don't have many comments on the next couple pages of Konowa/Allyra/Thor battle, but I agree with this regarding Allyra alignment and the replace-out:

Because an actual replace out suggests the flail wasn't flail but was emotional thrashing - emotional thrashing is alignment neutral and it removes a lot of the scumminess I was getting from her when she power freaked when I began questioning her motives. I had taken it as nervous scum - the actual truth was very tightly wound player. I am not of the opinion that it makes her as solid of a scumspect as I originally thought, therefor I returned to a solid suspect I hadn't explored properly yet.

48 hours until a prod is way to short a window. Prefer 72. Let me catch up.

Not game-related really, but 48 has been the window for almost every game I've played.


@Zebulin: Do you not think it is possible that Allyra-slot/Thor is TvT? I think that is very possible, and the only thing keeping me from thinking that is the case is the "slip" from Orci. I've only been scum a couple times, but how often is QuickThreads used for scum topics? And can the mod tell us if there is daytalk? Or is that all hidden since it's a Normal game?

I also think Boonskies is possibly scum, although I thought this in another game I played with him and his nonsense posts were actually just town, so there's a lot of trepidation there.

[acryon]

I think that is very possible, and the only thing keeping me from thinking that is the case is the "slip" from Orci. I've only been scum a couple times, but how often is QuickThreads used for scum topics? And can the mod tell us if there is daytalk? Or is that all hidden since it's a Normal game?

i always assume daytalk i guess because that's just the mafia environment i experience. the group of players i play with (cabd, fery, etc whatever) all are pretty large proponents of scum daytalk. i mean the assumption might seem strange but i literally cannot remember the last non-bork game that didn't have daytalk

You also said the "scum qt". I have only been scum twice, but neither time used a qt. Can you show me scum games of your's that used a qt instead of a MS thread that would make you use "qt" there?

[acryon]

yeah i can. this is my first game back from a 6 month hiatus and before i left i never actually used a PT. it's not quickthreads, not quicktopic. so since private topics were implemented after i took my leave in may, before that we always used QTs.

my last 4 games

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=44160
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=38561
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=37642
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=37642

all use QTs (since private topics hadn't been implemented yet), all have daytalk (i actually forgot whether teenwolf did or not. i think it did but i can't actually find the QT)

Given this, calling that post from Orcinus a slip seems silly.

Now fairly certain Thor VS Orcinus is TvT.

[acryon]

Now fairly certain Thor VS Orcinus is TvT.

i am fairly certain this is not true

what can i do to sell you a vote on thor

i can dance a jig??

I don't accept jigs sadly, but if you could give me what you think are the strongest two points for why Thor is scum. Other than the fact that you don't like his case on you.

[acryon]

i mean the issue i have with you right now are a few
1. unproductive and disingenuous lines of questioning that seems solely geared to get me to unvote when i first replaced in
2. reluctance to engage in conversation
3. i guess the fact that your two scumreads right now are two of the people scumreading you is an added bonus
4. there's a certain amount of cognitive dissonance in your posts. i mean you chide me for talking semantics when it really wasn't semantics, it was you either misphrasing your question or you just trying to deliberately misrep me as "dodging" things. and then the tipping point for my slot being scum again is this idea that i somehow treated my replacement's case strangely, when i've made it perfectly clear how i deal with predecessors cases replacing in and your evidence for the countercase is that i called all's case "good", which again is semantics. there's also this willingness to brand what i do as scummy especially when i think objectively you should not be scumreading me right now. the attack on me dodging question is highly highly questionable. i made it clear the first time that you alleged i dodged a question that i didn't think that's the question you were asking me and i highlighted very specifically why that wasn't the question you were asking me. the second time you accused me of dodging a question (just now), i had made it clear i found your attitude rude and that i didn't do that. so all this seems very disingenuous to me and i will give you the lynch yes i will lynch you

take your pick

i don't OMGUS very often if at all. but since that seems to be a concern of yours, 1. is not OMGUS because i refer to thor's questioning before he started scumreading me, 4. refers pretty heavily to his case on me so you're free to discount that although i think it's pretty strong

i would also add that i actually scumread thor before he scumread me so again my thorscum read is not reflexive

Just to clarify, I wasn't accusing you of OMGUS. Disliking a case is a perfectly reasonable thing, but I'd prefer to hear your more subjective reasons since you're obviously too close to that case.

Regarding your points:
1. Is it possible he is just a very controlling player (he is), and tries to push people onto his way of thinking as any alignment (he does)?
2. Part of this is most likely attributed to 1., but what points specifically, do you think he is avoiding that show scum-motivation?
3. This happens as town.
4. This is by far the most valuable point. Do you think Thor's aggression toward you/evident desire to paint you as scum are the result of a strong personal belief that you are scum. If Thor is the player described in 1., wouldn't it make sense for him to make some questionable decisions and comments for the sake of pushing a wagon he believes to be holding scum?

[acryon]

And just so it's clear where my head is at, I have played with Thor once, I called him scum and tunneled on him hard. Town lynched me for my case on him, and he turned out to be scum. While the general Thor-iness is here, the things that caused me to (correctly) scum-read him there don't appear to be evident this game.

[acryon]

1 when i first replaced in i feel like thor's questioning of me was rather disingenuous. i go over this in detail in 293 but basically i don't think he was trying to learn anything from his questioning, and i think his questions were geared in a way that would allow him to pivot into scumreading me / getting me to move my vote.
-for instance he pressured me a lot on my initial stance on him. why would you pressure a guy who literally just replaced in that way? he doesn't have a solid grasp on what's going on in the game, obviously doesn't have strong scumreads, and is trying to figure stuff out so i mean sure by questioning him on his initial vote you're going to either a) prove that his vote has weak reasoning (no shit he just replaced in) and scumread off that b) get him to unvote and i don't think either of these results speak to a town mindset. For instance if I were town and in thor's position i would ask the replacement for stances on certain cases, which to thor's credit he did, but i just think the line of questioning is really really off.

I mostly agree. Although I

do

think that there is reason to pressure a guy who literally just replaced in who appears to just be sheeping, because that comes across as lazy.

2 seems like a strange thing to say but i have an issue with how thor basically ignores my accusations of him. i don't like how he doesn't reply to the bit where i accuse him of misrepresenting his own question 288 and i don't like the sort of condescending brush-off attitude he's taken the entire game against ppl who are scumreading him. so yeah he'll reply in the interest of upholding a facade of replying to accusations but he'll drop a lot of meaningless buzzwords and spin false narratives and it won't seem like he's actually interested in figuring stuff out, just in accusing his own accusers of being scummy in some way

I also agree here.

P.edit: I super agree with 383.

I'm not stubborn enough to not change my mind based on a solid case.

VOTE: Thor

L-1.

[acryon]

Interested to hear from Xiao about about why he thinks Konowa is scum.

[acryon]

I would like to know specifically why he super agrees with 383.

I think all of the below sounds completely correct:

1. i mean ok but the problem i have is that he isn't exhibiting a "way of thinking". he's not trying to figure stuff out. he's used his posts as a pivot to transition into "scumread orc" or "get orc to unvote" and i just don't see why someone who talks a lot about engagement would do that
2. not trying to figure stuff out is scum
4. i don't think so because it doesn't fit in with the "allyra's replacement rang to me as town" narrative he's tried to tell. so just to be clear the story right now is a) thor unvoted allyra because he thought replacement was townish b) thor (from my POV) questioned me in order to get me to unvote him or create a point by which he could scumread me c) i express my explicit desire to lynch thor in 300 and he scumreads and votes me in the next post, an hour later. so alongside the fact that the aggression began before c) (ergo, thor was doing this BEFORE he developed a "strong personal belief that i am scum"), i just don't think this trajectory makes sense.

I'd like to highlight specifically point 1, because after Orcinus mentioned it, it really struck a chord. Town ask questions to either clear people as town or to get scum to slip. Some of the lines from Thor don't fit that description. Point 4 is also pretty damning, IMO.

Ugh are you kidding me Boonskies? wtf, let the man claim.

@Konowa, could you speak to the BBT association a bit more and why you may be confident enough in it to point it out pre-flip?

[acryon]

It might depending on how fast mod locks this thread, after that it's pointless.

My biggest thing on Konowa is how he came into the game saying he would tell us who scum was, but then did zero scum hunting whatsoever. The only thing he did was defend himself from prodding from Allyra, and then vote because of her questioning him. Then once she left and the heat was off, he unvoted and hasn't been around since. Sorry this is devoid of quotes, I want to get my thoughts out before nightfall.

Do you think that the intro post by Konowa is more likely to have been made by scum trying to show some false bravado, or by town being a little cheeky?

[acryon]

The whole BBT pointing out a newbie game they played together and Thor calling the narrative false and BBT pulling up the link and asking how what he said was false.

Awesome, thanks.

what an interesting hammer

and what an absurd 180 in boonskies reads

Unfortunately, this is the kind of crap that got him lynched in the last game we played together, and he was town.

[acryon]

Acryon

It's hard to say, I could easily see it as both. Regardless, I think the lack of scum hunting is enough to call his intro post into question whether it's false bravado or not.

I don't want to defend him too hard, but he was pretty much forced onto the defensive by Allyra right out of the gate, so I don't know that he had time for his own agendas straight away.

I agree with orc that varsoon needs to be looked at. A lot of his posts seem awkwardly detached (best word I can think of atm) from the actual game. 356 saying at least one of Orc/Thor/Xiao is scum seems like an easy way to make it look like he's scum-hunting without making a strong statement.

[acryon]

Unfortunately, this is the kind of crap that got him lynched in the last game we played together, and he was town.

rofl. link please. i'll look at it tomorrow if i'm still alive

hang on.

if you have this experience with boon in the past, why didn't you warn us that he pulls this kind of crap?

To be fair, he was lynched/called out multiple times for being a VI and doing similar things there, so I guess I had hoped he had learned

Here is the game http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=58587. And it wasn't necessarily hammering, but just general similar VI plays.

[acryon]

Acryon

I don't mind him being defensive, I mind him only being defensive and not questioning other posters. He posted shortly after Thor "meh"d Allyras wall iirc and he didn't call it out which I find annoying (though not entirely indicative of being scum).

Fair. FWIW, I am also quite interested in hearing Konowa's fleshed out reads.

[acryon]

So as soon as I decide to hammer Thor, everyone thinks he's town? Funny. As scum, do you think I'd actually hammer and draw attention to myself, especially if he actually flipped town? It's not out of character for me to troll hammer. Check my past games. I troll hammer all the time. Usually as town. I don't think I've ever hammered as scum, come to think of it.

Who exactly decided he was town? And why are you troll-hammering? Play the damn game. You can have fun, but one person being a troll is fun for

no one

else. All it does is make the game harder and more annoying for town.

[acryon]

So if your job on this site is to make games easier for scum regardless of your faction, then I guess you have accomplished it, but if it's to, you know, actually

play the game

and try to achieve your faction's win condition, then stop being a clown and actually play.

Maybe this is harsh, but it just isn't fun for anyone else to play with a troll; I promise you that.

[acryon]

I was actually null on Thor, tbh. I semi act like I was super on his side, but that's basically just to see how he'd react. My day 1's are horrible, but once I get around day 3 I really start to shine. If Thor flips scum, my reads are entirely different. You guys may see it as a troll hammer, and I'm okay with people thinking that. If I actually had a town read on him, I wouldn't have hammered. Simple as that.

You

are the one that essentially called it a troll hammer.

It's not out of character for me to troll hammer. Check my past games. I troll hammer all the time. Usually as town.

[acryon]

Stop being ignorant. Just because you didn't like that I hammered, doesn't mean I'm trolling. I know what the fuck I'm doing. I can't read Thor, and you guys put him at L-1, meaning you completely expect him to be scum and want him lynched. I did it for you. Deal with the fucking consequences.

Seemingly troll hammer.

Yes, we wanted him lynched, but there was always the chance he is a PR, which he now would have no time to claim. By hammering, you give a potential PR no chance to claim and save themselves. Why do I have to explain that to you?

[acryon]

Ever think I might have a fucking role that causes me to auto hammer?

Don't put him to L-1 if you don't want someone to hammer.

This is ridiculous. Don't act like you have no control over your actions.

[acryon]

I'm not even calling you scum for hammering him, either (though the way you did it was suspect).

That's the problem. There is actually a good chance boon is town, but he is making our job harder by doing things that are anti-town.

[acryon]

@Boon: Hammering a player without giving them the chance to claim

is

anti-town. Regardless of your alignment, that action was anti-town.

[acryon]

I'm not even calling you scum for hammering him, either (though the way you did it was suspect).

That's the problem. There is actually a good chance boon is town, but he is making our job harder by doing things that are anti-town.

please

for the love of all that Tales of The Abyss has taught us

just lynch him

That's what we did in the other game I played with him. Nobody wanted to really lynch him because we were all pretty sure he was town, but he was just doing and saying things that didn't make any sense, and we ultimately lynched him. I don't want to commit to lynching him and make it even harder for us to win just because he chooses to play a game differently than the rest of town. We shouldn't punish ourselves for his actions. That being said, I have no problem with discussing it tomorrow, but it should be a discussion we really think about, because my gut tells me there is unfortunately a very good chance he is town.

[acryon]

you want to talk making it harder for us to win?

if boon is scum, lynching him is the correct action

if boon is town and we don't lynch him, he will live to lylo

do you want boon to decide town's fate at lylo?

no i really didn't think so

I agree he shouldn't live to LyLo. I do not agree that we should simply policy-lynch him before the day before then.

[acryon]

i mean if you agree he shouldn't live to lylo that means we have to lynch him at one point or another

so why lynch late instead of early?

This:

I'm not sure how I feel about policy lynching him. He hasn't really seemed scummy to me except for being a little sheepy. The hammer without letting Thor claim was anti-town, yeah, but if Boon is town, I don't want to lose a towny just cause he's derp city sometimes. I understand what you're saying about not letting him get to lylo, but I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt before we instalynch him.

[acryon]

The idea that Allyra/orc bussed Thor is ridiculous. Orc is almost definitely town. Boonskies on the other hand, I'm not so sure. I do feel comfortable with my vote there.

VOTE: Boonskies

[acryon]

I don't like Xiao's 404 either because I don't know why he is presenting a case on someone who has already been lynched? Is this like some weird way of grasping town-cred given you know Thor is flipping scum?

To be fair, he said this when Thor was at L-2:

Sorry I didn't drop a post yesterday as intended. Ended up sleeping through the entire day due to sickness.
Am almost caught up and Thor hasn't really done anything to change my original read on him. If anything, he seems a lot scummier now.

VOTE: Thor665

Once I've fully caught up (about four pages behind this one), I'll add to my original reason of being really put off by his desire for a quick claim. I'll also explain why I think Konowa is probably scum, too.

This when Thor was at L-1:

Ok, I'm fully caught up now and gathering quotes for my post on Thor/Konowa.

And then the hammer came 5 minutes later. He said he was going to provide them, then Boonskies said he should still share, so he did.

It's not like he was like "oh hey, he's already dead, let me throw out a case no one asked for to gain some town-cred." He had said he was gathering stuff before the lynch was certain, and then was prodded for the information after the hammer, so he provided it.

[acryon]

It's not like he was like "oh hey, he's already dead, let me throw out a case no one asked for to gain some town-cred." He had said he was gathering stuff before the lynch was certain, and then was prodded for the information after the hammer, so he provided it.

My bad, didn't see Boon asking for the info.

What are your thoughts on the Thor wagon?

I was rather opposed to it until Orc broke some things open to me, but that was mostly because I didn't like Allyra's arguments; I liked Orc's. Part of me would be surprised if there were no scum on it, but at the same time, this makes me think there possibly wasn't:

At 350, Thor and Orc were both at L-4. Since there was a seemingly viable wagon on Orc, I don't think scum would feel the need to jump over. This means Zebulin is almost definitely town, because it makes no sense as scum to change the wagons from L-3 on your scum-partner and L-3 on town to L-4 on your scum-partner and L-2 on town, unless all 3 of Zeb/Orc/Thor were scum, which is highly unlikely.

The last 4 votes came within a 38 post range, and the last 3 came within 90 minutes:
351 - L-3
375 - L-2
384 - L-1
389 - Hammer

There is a strong possibility that the quickness of the wagon from parity with Orc's wagon to lynch was actually just too fast for scum to jump onto.

[acryon]

I literally cannot figure out how Zebu is scumreading me.
Oh.
Omgus~
Whamgus~
Bongus~
Wrongus~



I think ruling out the possibility of scum on Thor's wagon is a stupid thing. The swiftness of the hammer is null as fuck.

I think totally ruling out the possibility is ridiculous, but I think it is actually somewhat likely that there weren't any scum on it. And the swiftness is just a practical reason why scum may not be on the wagon. The final 3 votes coming in 90 minutes means any scum not on during that time couldn't get in on it. I'm sure a number of people aren't able to access during that time, so it isn't ridiculous to believe in the possibility of a total-town wagon.

Do you not think Zebulin is town?

[acryon]

The final 3 votes coming in 90 minutes means any scum not on during that time couldn't get in on it.
Do you not think Zebulin is town?

That's sissy logic. Scum could easily be there in those votes.

This is stupid. All I said was given that window, it seems quite possible that scum didn't have time to get on. I think that is perfectly reasonable. Scum have more of an opportunity to get on a wagon when it goes from L-3 to Hammer in 24 hours than they do when it happens in 90 minutes; that's just a fact.

I don't think anyone is town until the mod proves me otherwise.

This is more stupid. I'm sure you'll help a lot with scum-hunting when you don't think anyone is town. /s

[acryon]

Wrong, Acryon.
It's stupid to give scum the benefit of the doubt.
Scum hides in those little possibilities that you give them.
The second you stop suspecting players is the second you let scum win.
You should always be critical of everyone.

Obviously I'm never treating anyone like they are confirmed town unless they are confirmed, but not having a townpile just means your scum-reads are all over the place, which does nothing. If you don't believe people are town, then you at least must have some sort of spectrum of suspicion. In all actuality it is still a Town---Scum spectrum, but if you want to call it Less-likely scum-----Definite scum, then that's your thing I guess.

[acryon]

acryon

varsoon vote

please TT

I have voted.

[acryon]

I have voted.

But it's a bad vote.

There is just no way scum!Boon hammers scum Thor like that. I just don't see it.

Let's get a Konowa wagon going.

I don't agree with there being no way he did that, and I'd rather leave it where it is until we can actually hear something else from Boon.

Yeah,
Basically what I'm saying is that I am not comfortable with 'clearing' anyone of suspicion unless the mod confirms they are town to me.
The notion that scum couldn't be in the hammering 90 minutes is faulty, because it seeks to clear suspicion based on logic that could be wrong.
Am I more willing to read Thor's wagon as town-oriented because it was a quick scum-flip? Sure.
But that doesn't mean I should stop critically reading what people on it have posted and continue to post.
Everyone should be given that critical lens, even if what they are doing is 'town'.

Again, I did not say scum

could not

be in the hammering. I said it is reasonable to believe that they couldn't be. I'm certainly not clearing anyone in that window. The only person I was/am clearing at the moment related to his wagon is Zeb. My response on this was merely commentary on the idea that the wagon could potentially have been fully-town, which I agree it could have been.

And I view everyone's statements critically, because even town are fallible people, but I have no problem not looking into someone like Zeb as scum at the moment, because the extremely high chance of him being town would make it a gigantic waste of my time. It's better spent on those that probably aren't town.

[acryon]

I think that I'm just really fucking sick of getting tricked in a game where scum hold all the power, which makes me think that there's always some elaborate shit going on and if I'm not some sort of whistleblower to it then I'm getting dicked for it.
See: Literally every game Nacho or GIF or the-dude-with-the-angry-wolf-avatar bamboozles me.

I completely get that frustration and healthy skepticism is integral to winning, but there is also unhealthy skepticism, which can cause you to lose from being paranoid.

[acryon]

I don't agree with there being no way he did that, and I'd rather leave it where it is until we can actually hear something else from Boon.

Scum motivation for doing it?

I mean, if Boon is scum, he is pretty bad. Like, the 'town-cred' he gets for hammering scum does not outweigh the advantages to having a 3-man scum-team alive with Thor in it IMO.

It just seems an awful move for scum to make.

Well if he is town, he is pretty bad too, given the hammer. So I think I feel fine not writing him off as scum just because it would be bad to do as scum. The hammer was bad to do as either alignment.

[acryon]

There's pretty much no amalgamation when one of Gamsimbre and Goblin is not scum.
I can't figure the TWO of them to be town.
I'd throw Boon in that pile, but that's unnecessary.

If I was scum, you wouldn't be tunneling me so hard this early in the game.

Usually

, when I'm town and people are pushing for my lynch hard is who usually ends up being scum. I seem like such an easy mislynch. Also, if I was scum, I would be crumbing a PR, which if you look at my ISO, I have not been at all.

Ahh, a bowl of self-meta and nice glass of WIFOM. The perfect meal.

[acryon]

Eh, self-meta is a thing. Can be manipulated, but I almost always fake claim as scum. Meta's there for a reason.

And I hate meta, because if you "always fake claim as scum," then maybe you wouldn't this time to make us think you're not. It's even more worthless when you're the one who tells us about it.

[acryon]

@Boon: Can you please say something that isn't self-meta or total WIFOM?

Who do you think is scum?

[acryon]

Vote: Boonskiies

Do you think Varsoon is scum as well?

[acryon]

I don't know. I kind of like his response in #576.

My reads are still pretty much the same as they were at the end of D1, so there's that too.

I'm surprised that post was enough to change your mind.

[acryon]

I'm serious.

The speed of this wagon in addition to the little resistance against it makes me think even more that Boon is town.

This is again a situation where I'm not sure scum have had an opportunity to possibly defend him. Considering three votes have come in the last hour. I won't argue with the speed being incredibly fast, but I'm hesitant to register the lack of resistance as town just yet.

[acryon]

Well, boys. Just thought I'd look at some random games I've had, and searched my ISO's on them. All these links have me being scum read for "troll hammering", and I was put in a similar position as this one. Funny thing is, all of these, I was town. Some even PR. Although, when I 'troll hammer', I'm not actually troll hammering. Sure, I make it look like I am, but that's fun. I have my reasons for voting and going through with the hammer.


http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p6017243

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p6087301

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p6099332

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p6180572 (Here I didn't actually hammer, but I thought I did.)

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p6126592 (This one brings up me saying how I will hammer if put to L-1 and make it HAMMA TIME!!!!!)

1) I want to let you know that, regardless of your reasons, the "troll hammers" are bad for town. So you can keep doing them and keep getting suspected as town, which is bad for town in every way, or you can think about adjusting your play going forward. Your choice of course.

2) You are being voted on for your troll-hammer.

[acryon]

I'm serious.

The speed of this wagon in addition to the little resistance against it makes me think even more that Boon is town.

This is again a situation where I'm not sure scum have had an opportunity to possibly defend him. Considering three votes have come in the last hour. I won't argue with the speed being incredibly fast, but I'm hesitant to register the lack of resistance as town just yet.

That's not necessarily true. There's probably only two scum left, so it's very possible both are on my wagon.

Well sure, but this is a matter of likelihood, just like everything else in this game. And I think it's likely enough that I am not going to give you townpoints for the lack of resistance on your wagon.

[acryon]

Acryon, ignorant again. They aren't actually troll hammers. read the damn thread. god.

That's why I put it in quotes. But if it looks like a troll-hammer to everyone else, then you're probably doing something wrong (hint: you are).

[acryon]

If you are town and keep getting lynched for doing the same thing, then just change your play; don't try to tell people it's not what it looks like. And again, the hammer itself isn't the reason you're in this position right now.

[acryon]

Zebulin, acryon, orcinus_theoriginal, Konowa, Varsoon

Who's the two Scum?

Boonskies and either you or one of the lurkers.

[acryon]

After I'm lynched, you guys should follow BBT. He somehow always manages to figure things out, and people don't listen to him. LISTEN TO BBT. I don't care if you lynch me. If you need to get me out of the way, then fine. Just listen to BBT after toDay.

I agree, and I think BBT playing devil's advocate is great, because someone in town has to do it. Just like someone has to respond to the devil's advocate's questions and agree/disagree.

[acryon]

@Boonskies: I am the second person who voted you, and the one that has stayed on you even when the tide was trying to shift to Varsoon/Konowa. I'd hardly say I'm a sheep just sliding along on the wagon. Whether you think I'm scum or not is another story, but saying that I'm just a sheep following the wagon is disingenuous at best.

[acryon]

@Boon: I asked you who you thought was scum two pages ago, and you decided to ignore it. So I'll ask again: who do you think is scum? Besides obviously me now, although if you do somehow flip town, it may be beneficial to know where your head was at a few pages ago and not after all of this.

[acryon]

@Mod: Can you confirm that Drake/Goblin/Gam have been prodded?

[acryon]

Ughhhhhhh
I hate feeling so conflicted on a vote.
Can we Goblin/Drake/Gam soon?

Well that's what's terrible is that there is always the chance that at least one(possibly more) of the remaining scum are just not here, which makes the game a lot harder for town.

[acryon]

UNVOTE:

[acryon]

I think he is scum, but I'd still rather see everyone sound off on this and not wrap it up in half a day.

[acryon]

@Boon: Presumably you came back on and read through the thread starting after the kill. Given the flip on Thor and Rando, what were your thoughts at that time on who scum is(before you decided I was because of my push on you)?

[acryon]

@Boon - Look at his D1 progression surrounding the Thor vs Allyra discussion. It reads insanely genuine and shows he is not afraid to re-evaluate his reads.

He was defending Thor. It would have been easy for him to continue doing so as scum.

It was day 1. Remember Anatole Kuragin in Dr Pepper when the wagons were You vs Me? He was my scum partner there too.


@Acyron - Konowa was my only leaning scum read.


@Orc - yeah, and now his whole perspective on voting me is basically a Policy Lynch.


VOTE: Konowa

Now that I unvoted, you switched your vote to Konowa? Now it seems even more like your vote on me is OMGUS. Can you explain the switch please?

[acryon]

VC please Mod

I think the Konowa wagon is myself, Varsoon, Boon, Gam and Drake.

If there is scum on that wagon, Konowa, who is it?

Are you at all worried about the fact that 60% of your wagon is lurkers and a VI(scum IMO)?

[acryon]

Not if we lynch scum, no.

Well of course you wouldn't be after the fact. But I'm saying that should cause you to at least question the validity of it given the credibility of those in support of it.

[acryon]

For what it's worth, I read it as a semi-joke, and I don't think BBT was being a jerk, or at the very least wasn't intentionally. This is TvT. Let's work together guys.

[acryon]

Do you disagree with what I said?

@Acryon - I don't understand where your town-read on Xiao has come from. Can you explain it please?

55 read really town to me and was pretty against Thor's clear MO. 86 is him questioning reads of multiple players. If he was questioning the reasons, I could see this as scum, but he is just trying to see what/if their good reasons are, which seems more town to me. I've explained how his progression on the Thor vote and read made sense. I don't see scum going about it the way he did. Overall, I just don't see

anything

with scum-motivation in his ISO, but I do see things with town-motivation.

[acryon]

I feel comfortable stepping in and being the moderator of this discussion.

BBT - That specific question about what the point of it was is pretty bad. There's not really an answer to that question other than "to get my reads out there". I agree that it seems a bit antagonistic at this point,
Xiao Long - He is allowed to dislike your reads list, and it seems that he dislikes the fact that you have so many nulls. Maybe the question he is meaning to ask is "Can you elaborate on some of the nulls and whether some of them may be leaning some way or the other, because it seems odd to have that many at this point in the game?"

[acryon]

Yo negrodamus, chill.

I'm still cool with a Konowa, BBT, Boonskies, or Goblin lynch.
I'd be solid with Gams or Drake, because I'm not exactly wow'd by their new content.

That's a lot of lynches you would be comfortable with. Could you rank them?

[acryon]

Acryon, you're a cool bro, even if you're a scummie.

Same

Xiao Long - He is allowed to dislike your reads list, and it seems that he dislikes the fact that you have so many nulls. Maybe the question he is meaning to ask is

That's the thing, though. I don't care whether someone likes or dislikes my reads list, but when you start being anti-fun by trolling me, I get fed up with it.

"Can you elaborate on some of the nulls and whether some of them may be leaning some way or the other, because it seems odd to have that many at this point in the game?"

If he would have posted that, I wouldn't have blown up at him. I don't have a problem explaining reads I do or don't have.

For sure, and I don't know that his intent was to be anti-fun and troll you. People can get pretty sharp when they are scum-hunting, so I'm sure none of it was meant personally.

That being said, would you mind answering that question?

P.edit: Well, he doesn't need to be that transparent about how he feels about it; that's sort of part of scum-hunting. You have to keep your cards close to your chest sometimes when questioning. I don't think there was anything malicious behind it.

Now, let's just hug and move on <3

[acryon]

Can someone unvote on Konowa please? We have 12 days left, and I don't think we need another quickhammer.

[acryon]

Acryon you're ninja'ing the fuck out of me right now.

Haha I just noticed that, sorry!

[acryon]

I actually responded pretty passive aggressively.
Given your complete incompetence at understanding posts, I'm not surprised you missed that.

No, you didn't. Don't you remember, you were joking. Right?

Yet again displaying that magical inability to comprehend what you read. Post 664 was the joke. Post 662 was the response to your initial post.

Yeah, cause THAT'S why I'm saying you're being scummy. Get fucking real, dude.

OK, you're clearly going to make this difficult.

Why are you calling me scum? Because, you called me scum for disliking your reads-list and then you said my disliking of your reads-list in post 660 was scummy. So that's twice.

But, you're not calling me scum for that. So, what are you calling me scum for?

I'm not making this difficult at all. You're just an idiot. 664 was a joke. 719 was not calling you scum for disliking my list. It was calling your actions of claiming you calling out my reads list was done with scum hunting intentions and then backpedalling and trying to justify that claim when it's bullshit and there was no evidence of scum hunting intentions behind 660 at all.

Is he an idiot(stop with the personal insults) or is he scum? Because you are seeming to imply with some comments that he is dumb for not reading, and in others that he is scum for it. Which is it?

[acryon]

I have no idea what to make of all of this. I thought Xiao was town, and then all of a sudden he is doing all of this. Part of me thinks he just got really defensive about his reads list being called terrible(which is understandable), but you have to come back to reality again. Maybe it would be best to just step away for a bit, because the way you're playing right now is not at all like how you have been playing(which I thought a lot of was pretty good).

[acryon]

There's nothing wrong with being mad; everyone has emotions. And there is nothing wrong with stepping away from the game, because certain events in it can get the best of almost anyone. But you're not being constructive at all right now, so it's much better to step away for a bit than it is to ruin the good town-game you've been playing.

[acryon]

Wow, that was never my intention to make you feel like that and now you've actually annoyed me.

I have explained everything that I did. I don't know why you're creating a huge drama.

On a game-related note; townies never self-vote and I can't help but feel this is a ploy after Acryon's recent comment regarding stepping away from the game.

@Acryon - it's really unnerving me the way you're speaking to Xiao. It's like you

know

he is *town*.

I don't know that he is town, but I think there is a very high change he is town. And because this stuff from him seems so different in tone from the rest of his game, I'm inclined to believe it is him being genuinely annoyed by a perceived attack from you and not some weird scum flail. It doesn't make sense like the other stuff he is done, which seem far more characteristic of someone acting out of emotion that someone acting as scum.

[acryon]

I feel pretty strongly that this is TvT, which is why I am especially interested in trying to keep it civil.

[acryon]

I don't think I have said anything out of line.

Xiao just completed melted under a little questioning.

I don't think you have either, at least intentionally. Your initial response of how terrible his reads list was could easily be taken personally, especially since it wasn't initially accompanied by any questions or real comments. Even that comment alone wasn't out of line, but I can see how it could be taken worse than it actually is, especially with no indication of your intention. I think that first thing set it off, because it just seemed like you were insulting him without going anywhere with it. While I get where he is coming from, it was obviously a misunderstanding of the situation, and I think it was much more him continuing to respond out of emotion rather than melting specifically under questioning.

[acryon]

Yeah, I'm actually reading Xiao town from the exchange. Comes off as the kind of frustration I have when people don't seem to ACTUALLY be reading what I'm saying, and then they insist on their non-reading over and over again.

Regardless.

Lynch Goblin.

VOTE: Goblin

I am unfortunately reluctant to lynch someone who has posted 4 times in 15 days. Lynching him just feels like rolling the dice. Sucks that we couldn't have replaced him by now, because he has basically been non-existent the entire game.

[acryon]

Konowa be scum. BBT be town. Yoooo....

Can you answer my question in 638?

[acryon]

I'll be V/LA until probably 12/15

. I will certainly try to get on at points and check in, but we're having our second baby on Monday, so I'll try to get on during lulls, but I can't make promises at this point. If it looks like I won't be able to get on at all, I will get on within a few days of Monday and ask for replacement. Apologies to the town in advance for not being around as much during this time.

[acryon]

Don't have a ton of time, so here are a couple key notes from my read-through.
-1011 from Drake is obviously terrible. Seems incredibly contrived with no clear intent to scum-hunt. The follow-up reads-list doesn't necessarily make me feel any better, although I'm not confident that it is coming from scum vs. someone that isn't interested in the game.
-Jester is town. No fence-sitting. Original comments. Specifically 988 just doesn't seem like it would come from scum at all. Saying Thor was a scum-read definitely felt like a genuine town-slip, especially given the rest of the content of the post.

I also went through and looked for questions asked of me so I could at least answer those.

@Formerfish:
Re: Townblocs. Townblocs are fine if they are organic.
Re: Suspicion. I think being suspicious of someone over one thing is generally fine, but your level of confidence in the scum-read should be correlated with the level of realistic possibility that action has of being attached to scum (of course in the context of this game).
Re: RVS. RVS can, and does provide useful information. Getting out of it quickly is good though, because there are many many players that are fine just joking around for longer than I like. That's not my style, so I'd prefer to push us out of it sooner rather than later. It gives us more real content to go off of D1, where real content is often lacking.
Re: Orc vs Thor. Orc seemed extremely town. I had played with Thor once before and he was scum. I was the only person that believed it and saw it at the time, but in this game, it didn't feel quite the same. The reasons many were scum-reading him initially didn't ping me the same way he pinged me that last game with him.

@KillerJester:
Re: Switch on Boonskies lynch. Just like in the last game I played with Boonskies, I was back and forth in my mind on lynching him many many times. Players that seem to be trolling/VI's do that to me, and I'm still working on figuring those types of players out more reliably. The vote came for two reasons. 1) To provide some pressure for Boon to come back to, so I could hopefully have more to truly work out that read, and 2) The vote came on the scum end of the town-scum Boon pendulum that seemed to exist in my mind. Because of his style, he's a tough player to read, as he is someone who I think could easily be town or scum in any given game, as his actions don't seem to align to one or the other.

I'll do some more reading when I have a little time tomorrow, and will specifically look a little more at what Konowa and Varsoon have done since I've been gone. I'll also have a vote then.

[acryon]

I still feel that BBT is town, although his interaction with Fish makes me question a bit.
I think Xiao's scum-read on BBT is unfortunately wrapped up in a good bit of personal bias.
The fact that both Boonskies

and

Drake asked for someone to hammer them makes me uneasy. For some reason, I have a hard time believing that both of them are being genuine with it. I think I feel worse about Boonskies, and I still wouldn't be totally opposed to a Boon vote, but overall I feel there is a good chance there is scum between Boon and Drake. There is still five days left, so I don't feel comfortable jumping in and hammering, so I'm going to wait off on voting for now.
I was planning to do a more in-depth look at Varsoon and Konowa, but time is not allowing that at the moment. I feel heavily null on Varsoon, and I'm leaning more town than scum on Konowa at the moment.

[acryon]

...Welp.

Looks like we

didn't

get scum.

The italicized

didn't

is a scum tell.

This is insane. Provide multiple instances ASAP or stop trying to push this.

Why are you voting him besides this?

[acryon]

This doesn't read as incredibly sarcastic to you?

Yep I was the master scum. Thought the whole plan would pan out. If only I wasn't hammered. eh It happens to the best of us I guess.

"the master scum" "eh" etc.

I could see "the master scum" are sarcastic, but the "eh" is the complete opposite IMO.

[acryon]

Meh, it still reads really sarcastic to me, even if I didn't know the context. Probably the oddest reason I've had a vote cast on me so far on this site.

Is there an actual case against Zeb? The only reason I've seen mentioned is meta-based (meta that isn't entirely relevant to Zeb himself).

Acryon, current thoughts on game? Also Former's 1257?

While I do think that it's a stretch to vote for you or think it is a clear-cut scum slip, I'm not ready to say that it wasn't.

Regarding the game as a whole, I'm hoping to glean more when this day gets more involved. Leaving and then coming back to 2 dead PRs and a dead VT that was one of the town's primary suspects is certainly pretty game-changing. This is going to be a difficult game in general, and I'm certainly not excited at the prospect of letting my day 1 reads totally shape my day 2. The game changed completely, and so should the way the town approaches it. What comes out today is going to be pretty important, and I think this discussion over you and Zeb is certainly a good start.

[acryon]

Ditto.

Can you please answer my question I posed to you? I don't like this trend of you ignoring my direct questions toward you.

...Welp.

Looks like we

didn't

get scum.

The italicized

didn't

is a scum tell.

This is insane. Provide multiple instances ASAP or stop trying to push this.

Why are you voting him besides this?

[acryon]

@Mod: Usual V/LA until Monday.

Around for a bit longer today, but wanted to post it before I forget.

[acryon]

Anytime I have had a reason to say you're scum I have done it. I have put plenty of posts already. I did yesterDay as well.

Hey, Boonskies.

Answer. My. Question. I'll even post is for a third time because I'm nice.

...Welp.

Looks like we

didn't

get scum.

The italicized

didn't

is a scum tell.

This is insane. Provide multiple instances ASAP or stop trying to push this.

Why are you voting him besides this?

And don't say what you said in 1343, because that wasn't relevant at the time you actually voted. You're either not reading the thread or you're dodging me. The former is bad town, and the latter is scum. If you're not scum, then be a better townie.

Yeah, I do, but I don't feel like laying it out for someone who I haven't seen do any kind of scum hunting.

This is stupid. Withholding information about who is scum from town doesn't win games. This is an anti-town attitude.

And trust me, I could write a case that would have you voting yourself cause its just that damn good.

Then post it. If you are town, then play to your win condition and guide us toward who you think is scum.

I'm going to bring this back because he's not getting the hint.

VOTE: Boonskies

[acryon]

Weren't you going to write up a case on me or some shit, Orc? zzzz

Why do you think Orc is scum outside of the "buddying" with Varsoon? Or if I'm misconstruing that as one of your reasons, could you clarify, or explain what about it makes it scum buddying.

[acryon]

It's more that everyone else seems more town, with maybe the exception of Boonskies. And Orc's had zero pressure all game, so why not vote him? I mean, the buddying is already a better reason than any Orc's stated for voting me, so YOLO and shit.

Why do you think formerfish and Varsoon are town?

[acryon]

Well, if you're scum, I don't see it being particularly farfetched for you to kill him in an attempt to frame me (especially considering you came in D3 with some extremely weak reasoning for voting me). Pretty much goes for anyone else, too. Are you really this intent on viewing this game from a strictly level 1 perspective?

I agree with Xiao here. Your scum-read being lead in this way seems weak Orc. You've got better, I'm sure.

[acryon]

This would be the third time saying it, but ok:
You said scum would call out the idea of me killing BBT.
You called it out.
Therefore you are scum.
Questions?

This is not right. You and Boon need to stop throwing out these "scum-slips." Scum-slips, in actuality, are

very

rare, so it should be quite low on your radar.

[acryon]

Then what word should I use? He seems to know what scum would do, and he did the action himself. What do I refer to that as?

Well it's the right word, but I don't think that is an actual scum-slip. Especially when people have played a lot, they can speak to the actions of scum. That doesn't make them scum, and it almost definitely isn't a scum-slip.

[acryon]

It's a weird situation. For instance, I've been in games where I've said something to the effect of "This wagon makes me uncertain, because no one is stopping it, so it's probably not on scum." Well, after saying that, now I stopped it. Does that make me scum? No, because you can speak of things objectively. Now, it's up to the town to determine intent, etc., but I certainly don't think it's a scum-slip in any way.

Scum-slips

do

happen, but not in the way you're describing with orc, or the way Boon was describing with Zeb.

[acryon]

Orc your arguments are weak and reachy, and you are playing more and more like Thor would as the day goes on. I do not like this.

Agreed, and I think Xiao's response's are being guided too much by defense, because the case on Orc isn't much good either.

[acryon]

If scum is the one who was gonna point out the bbt kill link to Xiao, and Orc pointed out the bbt kill link to Xiao...
D:
If I am right on Orc-scum, I'll flip my lids.

Yes, but scum-Orc also wouldn't do one of the two actions if he were scum, as it defeats the purpose. It's mostly WIFOM.

[acryon]

V/LA until Monday due to the Holiday+Weekend.

[acryon]

This would be the third time saying it, but ok:
You said scum would call out the idea of me killing BBT.
You called it out.
Therefore you are scum.
Questions?

This is not right. You and Boon need to stop throwing out these "scum-slips." Scum-slips, in actuality, are

very

rare, so it should be quite low on your radar.

I used the wrong term. I meant scum tell, which isn't as rare. They are actually pretty common, but usually in hindsight. Also, I have been aware you have been asking a question to me, and by god, for some reason I don't understand why everyone is town reading you either. Sure, you don't seem innately scummy, but you definitely don't seem town to me. I'm still on for the Zebulin/Acryon scum team. I'll get to that when I have the time to sit down and analyze your ISO's.

So why is it that you refuse to answer my simple question?

[acryon]

Well, zebby boy, you are giving less reasons to why I am scum, than I am to you. Your posts are fluffy. Mine are obviously disinterested/in caught up on this game. I could see zeb probably being scum with xiao.

If you choose to refuse my extremely simple question, can you at least give me your reasoning for doing so?

[acryon]

Null: Orcinus_theoriginal, Xiao Long If one flips town/scum the other goes to scum/town

this seems really lazy

Agreed. Saying that kind of associative read is fine, but it should at least be noted which one is more likely to be scum I think. Without that, it doesn't mean much.

[acryon]

I am ok with a Boon lynch, because there is zero town-motivation to blatantly ignore my question like he has. Plus the stuff prior.

[acryon]

9 hours to deadline. The only possible lynches appear to be Xiao, Zeb, and Boonskies. I am definitely not considering voting Zeb, so it should be either Xiao or Boonskies. I want a Boonskies lynch, but I'm not sure it can get there.

@Those who aren't voting Boonskies: 1) Why do you think he is town? 2) Why do you think he is blatantly ignoring me, and what do you think of it?

I'll be around near deadline and ready to switch my vote to avoid a NL, but I'm going to abstain for now to ensure we get a claim and don't get a quickhammer, especially with a player like Boon around.

[acryon]

Pushing Acryon would be the biggest waste of town's time, Orc.

Acryon: obviously if it comes down to me or Boon, I would vote Boon despite wanting an Orc lynch more.
1. I don't really think he's town, my priority is/was just Orc. 2. Which question was it that you were wanting him to answer?

In 1253, Boonskies suggested that the italicized "didn't" was a scum-tell. Basically, I told him that was insane and he needed to tell me another reason he was voting for him. And he just flat out refused to give it.

I asked him first in 1285, again in 1330, again in 1365, again in 1462, again in 1492, and he just ignored my question every single time.

[acryon]

Hello I oppose a boon lynch

@Those who aren't voting Boonskies: 1) Why do you think he is town? 2) Why do you think he is blatantly ignoring me, and what do you think of it?

[acryon]

Phone posting at airport

Your case falls flat when you consider boon is a VI

His meta checks out

And I still refuse to believe he is scum playing fancy with hat self vote earlier

If he is truly a VI and just giving a garbage vote for Zeb with zero actual reasoning, as well as a total nonsensical refusal to answer why, then I will do my very best to never play with him again. That kind of crap just makes the game not fun.

It was seriously such a simple question. Does anyone disagree that his comment about the italicized word being a scum-tell is absolutely terrible?

[acryon]

Also my entire scumpile has been throwing dirt at boon all game which makes me feel good enough about that read

Pedit what the fuck why are you working with the assumption of boon not being a VI WE WENT OVER THIS ON D2?

Because certain things I will accept from a VI, and certain things I will not. The actions today from him, I will not.

[acryon]

Like go through boon's main actions d1 and d2

I am having a very difficult time seeing those actions as scum w/ thor

I am too, but him voting Zeb for a terrible reason and then proceeding to refuse to answer for it

five

different times is not just terrible, it's scummy.

I am still willing to vote Xiao, because I do think there is a chance of scum there, but I'm still not at all sold on Boon-town.

[acryon]

Like if you're scum reading boon for zeb vote why didn't you scum read him for hammer?

Oh yeah cos thor flipped scum

Zeb might flip scum as well so I mean I don't see your qualms

Well there is a big difference between hammering scum and simply voting them. And scum could do both for different reasons.

[acryon]

Also I don't think Zeb is scum.

[acryon]

That's actually not what I said. What I said was: "I get back from work in about 8 hours, if it looks like people are only interested in lynching me, I'll claim I guess."
When I got back, I wasn't looking like the only one likely to be lynched.
Go ahead and vote me to L-1 for no reason.

The fact is, there are only five hours left. Someone has to die, and especially given the overall activity of this game, it is quite doubtful that anyone has the legs to get there except for you/Boon, and even Boon has enough supporters that it has little-to-no chance of happening.

[acryon]

VOTE: Xiao

Care to answer my question before the thread locks? Or explain what the issue is?

[acryon]

What was the question again?

You're kidding me. Are you just not reading the thread one bit?

[acryon]

Everytime I've seen someone comment on someone else's alignment in twilight or beginning day and italicize a word, it's usually because they are trying to put up a visage to make them seem like they are generally surprised. It's very fake coming from scum. It sounds stupid, but I'm going to try and look for some in my past games. Plus, it's not the only thing I'm scum reading you for.

You said you would look for games where this happened. Did you find any?

[acryon]

One is not enough to establish an idea that italicized alignment comments are scummy. I just don't buy at all that that's a good enough reason to vote him there.

[acryon]

Eh, we'll revisit this tomorrow if I'm alive. I've got to head out for a bit anyway.

[acryon]

I know one of the remaining PRS, do we think there is another one out there? I kinda want to say no based off the 2 goon flips but balance isn't my strong suit.

Yeah, this is an interesting idea. I would think there is more than just one PR, just because it would be so vanilla otherwise, but I also admittedly don't know a ton about typical set-ups in these kind of games.

[acryon]

How does everyone feel about a mass claim? I am normally against them, but feel like this situation would benefit from knowing who to lay off of and where pressure would be more useful. It would also significantly decrease the lynch pool.

Hmm, idk. The problem is, say we only have 1 PR. We end up with 1 PR and 5 claimed VT's. We lynch from that pool of 5 for a 20% chance of scum, and our PR dies. If we have 2 PRs, then we lynch from a pool of 4 for a 25% chance. Next day, we have 1 PR, 2 VTs, and 1 Scum, so we are in LyLo with a 33% chance. I think we have to play is straight here.

[acryon]

Given the flips of our town so far (jack of all trades and Vigilante), I've got to imagine the last scum is a power role and that if we have any other town PRs then they're something that interacts with Vig/JoaT with, perhaps, negative utility.

Also, scum could lie and claim a PR as well.
We're too close to fudge this up with basing our lynches in something as insubstantial as a mass claim in a closed setup.

I say that we lynch based off of logic and the fact we've got 64 pages of info to go off of.

Agreed

[acryon]

I'll be V/LA until Monday as usual. I am going to have some more time when I get back, so I will be doing some in-depth looks at people.

Initial thoughts are that scum is either Varsoon or killer. I still haven't totally ruled boonskies out, but he has dropped quite a bit lower for me.

[acryon]

Sorry, meant to bold for the mod.

V/LA until Monday as usual

[acryon]

VOTE: Boonskiies Still think he's the scummiest, for all the reasons prior.

Alright

, so I'm thinkig the last scum is Boonskiies or killerjester.

I don't think Acryon or Varsoon are the last scum, as they are both gut townreads, and Formerfish seems to be the most active and contributing, so I don't think he's scum either. KJ has been inactive, but I don't think that's enough by itself to be lynched. Boonskiies has been scummy all game.

Formerfish: I'm pretty sure anyone would've killed Orc in the night, he was basically conf town after both Thor and Xiao hating him and then dying.

He thinks it's either me or killer, and there's a wagon on killer, and he chooses to vote me. I don't see how it's not Zebulin.

VOTE: Zebulin

Come on.

Wouldn't him choosing to start a new wagon over one with traction be indicative of him being town if anything? How is it scum to have 2 scum-reads and vote for the one that doesn't have a wagon?

[acryon]

I just don't understand Boonskies play this game. He has now, on two different occasions, given terrible reasons for why Zeb is scum. I actually don't know if I can imagine scum giving reasons that bad for voting someone. At this point, even though I don't feel their play seems as scummy as Boonskies, I think there is actually a much greater chance one of Killer/Varsoon flips scum.

@Zeb: Why is Varsoon leaning town for you? (this isn't an interrogation; genuinely curious for your reasons)

[acryon]

Going through D1 again, and I have some observations. The Varsoon/Thor interaction didn’t really read MvM. On the other hand, if scum-Thor is going to create a pseudo hard-push on someone D1 that in reality has zero chance of going all the way, then it would make sense for it to be on a scum-buddy. This early distance is very important.

One of the critical points to look at is the opposing wagon situation.
Initially, the primary wagon opposite Thor’s was Allyra’s. Boonskies, Thor, and Konowa all resided on this wagon, and all seemed quite confident on it. When Allyra replaced out, Thor unvoted and switched to randommidget. A handful of posts later, Boonskies follows suit, and all of a sudden Thor has a new counter-wagon.

Zeb voting Allyra in 335 is weird, but it also doesn’t seem scummy to me at all. It doesn’t make sense from a scum-perspective to vote for someone like Allyra who most people seemed to be town-reading at the time, especially after the rage-quit.

343 has Boonskies trying to call out a scum-slip (this is a theme for him this game). In post]344[/post], Boonskies says he will be ok lynching Allyra (town), after Randommidget (town), and Orc (town). Not long before this, Boonskies mentioned in 254 that he would be ok lynching Thor. In the 344 post, we don’t see Thor mentioned, but instead he is standing in agreement with him.

Now that Zeb came in and voted for Allyra, Boonskies decides to switch away from voting with Thor to working on another alternate wagon – Allyra.
Xiao in 387 mentions 3 people and comments on their potential alignment. Zebulin – Town. Me – Town. Varsoon – Unsure, but not playing typically. I don’t see him voting his one scum-buddy and calling out his other for weirdness here at the same time, so this makes Varsoon look better.

Boonskies then hammers, presumably for town-cred as he knows that Thor is scum. There isn’t a reason to hammer there as town, and as Orc pointed out in 403, Boonskies trajectory on Thor was anything but natural.

Never mind 166, 421, 564, 570, 881, 883, 904, and 1193, in which Boonskies talks about "I would have/wouldn't have X if I were scum." He says this an absolutely unnatural amount if he's town.

*Sigh* I hate to say this, but I don't think we can leave Boonskies alive. If we lynch someone else, we only have one day of a NL and then LyLo. We can't let him get to LyLo, or we are screwed, and just so many of his plays scream scum that he has to hang.

Is anyone interested in a LyLo with Boonskies present? Good luck winning that. If we lynch him here, we have tomorrow to talk and NL, and then LyLo, where I think we will have a good chance of figuring out who it is.

VOTE: Boonskies

[acryon]

To be clear, this is not strictly a policy lynch. It is primarily an effort to lynch the final scum, although our inability as town to let him live to LyLo was the deciding factor for me.

[acryon]

I just don't understand Boonskies play this game. He has now, on two different occasions, given terrible reasons for why Zeb is scum. I actually don't know if I can imagine scum giving reasons that bad for voting someone. At this point, even though I don't feel their play seems as scummy as Boonskies, I think there is actually a much greater chance one of Killer/Varsoon flips scum.

@Zeb: Why is Varsoon leaning town for you? (this isn't an interrogation; genuinely curious for your reasons)

Gut.

I feel like Varsoon is being incredibly foolhardy with what he's posting, but hasn't done anything really scummy (other than that bad case on Orc at the start of Day 2). As scum that's very difficult to pull off. Orc (conf town) also said he was town on multiple occasions, and Orc correctly called both Thor and Xiao, so there's a good chance he got some of his other reads right. It's not a very strong read, hence "leaning town".

Agreed.

[acryon]

I was under the impression that xiao hated Boonskies.
Worried about acyon playing scum.

Bussing is a thing.

Also, in what scenario do you see town winning with Boon in LyLo?

[acryon]

I was under the impression that xiao hated Boonskies.
Worried about acyon playing scum.

Also don't be worried. Not scum.

[acryon]

The point is, if Boon is town, I would much rather figure that out with a mis-lynch now than a loss in LyLo. That being said, I think there is a decent chance he is actually scum. See my post for the laundry list of offenses.

[acryon]

I was tempted to fake a cop innocent on him just to mess with you, but I did that recently in a game, I think.
I think I am going to be tonight's kill. :/
I want to win today.

I'd love to win today too, and there's a reasonable chance that actually happens with a Boon lynch. I also think a Boon lynch today, if he doesn't flip scum, greatly increases the chance of a win in LyLo. Trying to win today without thinking about LyLo is a little too greedy I think.

[acryon]

Yeah, true and true, but what if, just what if...
There were 4 scum
?!!?!

Seems unlikely. Seems far more likely the last scum is a PR. And if there are four scum, then we are doubly screwed.

[acryon]

Well, acryon, let's say that I go with you on this boon lynch, against everything that's in me saying boon is town.
What happens when we hit lylo?

Well I'm not quite sure what happens, because we will be down Boon plus another townie. That being said, tomorrow is a discussion free-roll, so we will have plenty of time to talk about what to do after the flips.

[acryon]

Acryon, didn't I show a list of games where I pointlessly hammer as town? I can show you a link where I'm more careful where my votes are when I'm scum, if you wish. I'm done defending myself, by the way. I don't care enough, and it'll just lead to my mislynch.

You did, but that doesn't mean it wasn't scum-you doing it this game. I don't put much stock in meta, because it is so easily manipulated. So meta-defense doesn't work for me.

[acryon]

The only thing keeping me from wanting to lynch Boon is that Orc seemed fairly confident in him being town, but I still think he can't be in LyLo.

[acryon]

How can you read 904 and think he's the best lynch today.

Is that a joke? How can I read one of his many many comments about "I would/wouldn't do X as scum" and believe it's genuine?

Fair enough. He said he doesn't do it as scum guys, so I'll believe him. This game is all about taking people at their word after all. /s

[acryon]

How can you read 904 and think he's the best lynch today.

For the sake of being more helpful, what about that post makes you think he is town?

[acryon]

There's a big difference between saying "I would/wouldn't do X as scum" and self-voting followed by the statement "I've never self-voted as scum before."

They are functionally the same thing. The whole point of a statement like "I would/wouldn't do X as scum" is to create a picture of what you would do as scum and ensure it doesn't line up with the play you're employing. So every statement like that will be related to a corresponding action.

[acryon]

But why can't scum do that just as easily?

[acryon]

If he did it as scum it would break his townmeta of self-voting.

So you're putting 100% faith in his

meta

...? And meta that

he

brought up no less?

Granted I have an extreme disdain for reads based on meta, but that seems quite foolish at best.

[acryon]

I was trying to be subtle about it but whatever

If

he is playing town, then it is terrible town. He has time and again done things that are strictly anti-town. Maybe he is just trolling, but I'd also rather not have a troll in LyLo, because we actually have no idea of his alignment.

[acryon]

I'm more confident in scum between Varsoon and Zebulin so would like to use our 2 lynches for them if possible.

I have no interest in a Zebulin lynch, and I would much rather have to deal with Varsoon in LyLo than Boon.

[acryon]

I can't imagine myself

not

voting Boon today. He simply can't get to LyLo.

[acryon]

Actually, aren't most of those things you've said Boonskies the very definition of trust tells, which are banned here.

[acryon]

Looking at the wiki entry for trust tells, your behavior is the very definition of it, and understandably that kind of behavior warps the game in a negative way.

[acryon]

And I promise I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but they truly are very bad for the game.

[acryon]

@Acryon - if you think I'm trust telling, you wouldn't be voting me. So, false. If you thought I was trust telling, you'd be town reading me.

I'm voting you because I want to believe you aren't trust-telling, although it certainly looks like it. Because if you are trust-telling, then the game is just ruined anyway. That being said, I won't mention that again, because if the mod hasn't said anything, he must not agree, and that's fine. So I'm ignoring any trust tells. Additionally, your game-play in general means we absolutely can't have you in LyLo.

[acryon]

I don't get this vote on Zeb at all.

@All voting/considering voting Zeb. Sum up the key reasons for the vote on him.

[acryon]

Zeb is not scum. My vote will only be for Boon or Killer today. Should be Boon, but this game is kind of effed so no one is really going to vote him apparently.

Get your vote off of Zeb. Everyone should claim. I'll claim after everyone else has.

[acryon]

I think it's best for town actually if I don't make the details of my role known. I can't explain why right now, but I'll explain tomorrow.

[acryon]

Wait, like RL tomorrow or game tomorrow?

Game tomorrow, but I was hoping to be a little more subtle with that.

VOTE: Killer

[acryon]

Actually nevermind.
UNVOTE:

[acryon]

Can't shake it.

VOTE: Boonskies

[acryon]

Actually, we should 100% be going for a no lynch today.

We have one no-lynch available.

If we use it tomorrow, we are each lynching from a pool of 5 today, and then a pool of 2 in LyLo. If we no-lynch today, we are lynching from a pool of 4 tomorrow and a pool of 2 in LyLo. The latter is just strictly better.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: No lynch

[acryon]

Ok, this obviously nullifies the role, but I think everything will just make a lot more sense if I claim. I also don't mind throwing off scum.

I'm Town 1-Shot BP.

If scum really wants to kill me, we get an extra day, and if they leave me alive, we get a confirmed townie for the rest of the game.

I guess I gave off some major feelings to people this game, which has been good for me and town, but hopefully scum didn't pick it up before now :/

[acryon]

Meant in my last point that you could have scum shoot you and give town an extra lynch.

Yeah, but I wasn't sure that was going to happen, and then since scum would have already wasted my BP, they may just kill me the next night. This way, they are now forced to make a choice, which I think ultimately makes things harder for them.

[acryon]

Killerjester, acryon just claimed bulletproof so he won't die overnight.

Exactly. We'd go into D5 with the same people and no BP (ie: strictly worse than lynching today). If we NL twice to get the LyLo-tempo then acryon dies.

If we keep the current MyLo-tempo then acryon is effectively NK-immune unless scum wants to give us an extra lynch.

I'm suggesting a MyLo with acryon is better than a LyLo without him.

I see what you are saying here.

He's right. We should actually lynch someone tonight, because if scum tries to kill me, then we are still in the same spot. Me absorbing the kill actually hurts us there.
We do need to lynch tonight.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Varsoon

[acryon]

Super skeptical of that Acyron claim.
That's pretty much the perfect scumclaim for "Hey guys this is why I'll make it to Lylo and beat you."

You would be wrong to be skeptical.

[acryon]

Aight then.
You also aren't explaining your vote on me, and it's really a head-scratcher as to why you, if you were town, would claim a BP role like that.

It puts scum in a terrible situation. He can try to kill me, but he gives town a free day. Now, he has to choose between letting me live or using 2 kills on me. That's a much tougher decision than if my role was discovered after he already tried. If he finds out after he already tried, then he already lost the kill anyway so he's much more likely to just finish me off.

[acryon]

And I'd rather not talk about the details much more, because it gets a lot worse for town the more we talk about it.

[acryon]

But you see why I'm skeptical, right?
Like, that that's a really -effective- claim to make as scum right now, right?

I see exactly why you're skeptical, but you're going to have to trust me, as well as those that believed in my alignment earlier.

[acryon]

Here's this.
I trust you if you trust me.
I'm town.

Well here is the thing. I will only vote you or Boon today. Looking over the other three, I found enough to clear them for me for another day. I haven't found the same for you two.

[acryon]

Problem is town-acryon and scum-acryon both would saay BP, town acryon to tell the truth and scum acryon for the explanation as to why he won't die. Going into whether acryon's BP claim is scum-motivated or not launches everyone into WIFOM for the rest of the in-game day.

And I was hoping this would be avoided/mitigated by the fact that multiple people seemed to know that I was a PR.

[acryon]

My town-read of Boonskies is informed mostly due to his play when under intense pressure.
If EVERYONE thinks Boonskies is the lynch we need to make, then we'll make that lynch.
I'm just against it because I think it'll turn up town and I'll feel dumb for going along with lynching it.

I get that, but at the very least I imagine you'll agree that MyLo and LyLo without Boonskies is better than MyLo and LyLo without another player.

[acryon]

So even if we are wrong on Boonskies as scum (which I actually think there's a decent chance he is), our chance of looking for scum in MyLo and lynching in LyLo is much easier.

[acryon]

VOTE: Boonskies

[acryon]

As I see it, the only other realistic possibility is that everyone sheeps Acryon onto a mislynch on me.
I don't mind you being town captain, Acryon, but town captain shouldn't be pushing mislynches.

I agree, and I don't think I am. This is now probably the 3rd time I've tried to get the town to move toward Boon, but I couldn't get people there.

I will still apologize if I am wrong, but I don't think I am.

[acryon]

People have been saying Boon is town for days in spite of multiple anti-town actions, and nobody seemed to have a good reason. I think he has coasted on the "too scummy to be scum" thing for too long.

[acryon]

I could never ever forgive myself if Boonskies won this game as scum.

[acryon]

Add some of 1608 into the mix as well.

[acryon]

The other thing is, really,
If you want to metagame,
Boon can't be trust telling if he's scum right now.
Which explains that away.

Well like I said before, if he is trust-telling then the game is screwed anyway. So I'm ok with losing if someone borderline-cheated, because it doesn't really count. That's why I'm choosing to believe he wasn't trust-telling, in which case I think he is just self-meta'ing to look town, which is definitely scummy.

[acryon]

It's all G.
Don't worry about the trust tell stuff.
Let's lynch Boon because LYLO with him is too risky and because of all the aforementioned cases on him.

Yeah, that's why I'm not. My only option is to believe it didn't happen, and play as if it didn't.

[acryon]

I think the gameplan tomorrow is to play smart, forget our vendettas and grudges, NOT VOTE UNTIL TOWN AGREES ON A MAJORITY, and analyze the game as a whole.

Agree completely.

[acryon]

Man, for what it's worth, I enjoyed playing with you, Boonskies.
It's just that if it's me or you, I know that I'm town and you're a liability for town winning in LYLO regardless of your alignment.

I think the gameplan tomorrow is to play smart, forget our vendettas and grudges, NOT VOTE UNTIL TOWN AGREES ON A MAJORITY, and analyze the game as a whole.

<3. You get 'em, Tiger. And if you're scum, you epicly fooled me, haha. Enjoyed playing with you either way.


@Acryon - PLEASE don't count Zebulin out tomorrow.

If you're not scum, I won't count anyone out tomorrow. People only get cleared by me for one day at a time.

[acryon]

I know you did but it had to be done. If it was up to me it would have happened a couple days ago, but it is what it is

[acryon]

Wow, lot to think about. I'm going to catch up in another thread and think about this, and I'll be back to post in a couple hours.

[acryon]

Formerfish, you and acryon are both confirmed town. I know this becausse I ust got the message from acryon telling me he's confirmed town. The fact that you didn't kill acryon last night (basically confirmed town) even though you knew he wasn't BP means you are also confirmed town. killerjester's the scum by POE.

...huh. VOTE: killerjester I was not expecting killerjester to be the scum. Thought it was you or Varsoon.

As for the killer/me thing, whoever talks first is at a disadvantage, so it would be better for a third party (you or acryon) to use a die tag.

Zeb's scum because my role PM is town

VOTE: Zeb

I got nothing else for ya, I could look back and read the game but everything I find would likely come off as confirmation biased now that I know Zeb is scum. Honestly he's played pretty well and I never had more than weak suspicions.

Just looking at these two posts, KJ looks better than Zeb. Something about the "huh" line feels a little off to me, and unfortunately his position does nothing to prove his alignment.

KJ's 1852 doesn't really make sense from a scum POV. If he is scum there, why do you talk about feeling better about Zeb, who he was clearly planning to keep alive. As scum, I can't see why Zeb doesn't die last night.

Former, where is your head at?

[acryon]

Thankfully, we have essentially 26 days to make this decision, so I/Formerfish have plenty of time to ask questions and figure this out.

[acryon]

VOTE: Zebulin On the off chance that Formerfish is scum and made a stupid decision by not killing acryon last night, I would like the game to be over now and not in 26 days. We're all assuming Formerfish is town right now and I don't see that changing, so the game will either be over quickly or Formerfish becomes certainly confirmed town. (My vote's still meant to be on killerjester)

Unvote, because if Formerfish

is

scum, then we just literally lose right now.

[acryon]

If Formerfish is the scum we lost anyway, and I don't want to wait a month agonizing over what decision you two will make.

I certainly don't intend to use anywhere near that long, but I also wanted to express that I'm not planning on rushing into a decision, because that's how you lose.

[acryon]

As scum, I can't see why Zeb doesn't die last night.

I lied about this. The Varsoon kill makes plenty of sense from KJ, because Varsoon was hard-pushing KJ for a while. Although, I find it a little hard to believe that scum-KJ would make such a predictable kill.

[acryon]

What I'm saying is that taking the 1% risk that Formerfish is scum and will win right now and having 2 confirmed town players is better than having 1 confirmed town player and one not-quite-confirmed town player.

I get this, and I suppose if I'm already acting as if he is confirmed, then this isn't much different.

PEdit: The night-kill analysis is going to go into a WIFOM death spiral, isn't it?

Yes, which is sort of what I was getting at.

[acryon]

I'm seeing Zeb scum based off the vca, and associative tells from Xiao. Discuss.

Ok, so Former is now 100% confirmed.

[acryon]

The VCA also looks bad for Zeb.

In terms of Associative tells, I'm going over that right now. What posts stuck out to you specifically?

[acryon]

Some of these posts from Xiao look really really bad. 1270, 1288, 1347

[acryon]

I think I know where my vote is going, but I need you to talk to me Fish

[acryon]

UNVOTE: Formerfish

I'm screwed, aren't I?

I think so.

[acryon]

One of the nails in the coffin:
I sent my town message to Xiao night 1. The only reason I would have been kept alive is because I thought one of them was town, in this case Zeb. Otherwise, I am 100% the kill on N3 after we lynched Xiao. The only reason I wasn't is because I was pretty hard-defending Zeb. In fact, it's the same root logic Zeb used to confirm Fish as town, but in this case it basically confirms Zeb as scum.

[acryon]

I'm working right now so I'll post when I can, bug I have to hide to do so, I'm trying.

No problem. It's no rush.

[acryon]

It's not playing against wincon. acryon having the surefire knowledge of you being town I thought was worth the very small risk of you being scum.

But I didn't have that knowledge. The only person who had the surefire knowledge of his alignment was him and scum.

[acryon]

You got the knowledge when Formerfish didn't vote me and end the game.

Sorry I misread you. It

was

against town win-con though, because you gave possible scum-Fish a chance to win the game. The only way you didn't do that is if you knew 100% that he was town, which you didn't unless you're scum.

[acryon]

VOTE: Zebulin

This is me avenging you Boon.

[acryon]

Feel free to take your time Fish, but I actually feel quite confident now.

[acryon]

My alignment was never in question. Even at the beginning of the day you and killer just took my questioning of you in stride.

EXACTLY.

When someone's being strongly townread by everyone (I was giving it a 99% chance you were town), you could make sure of it by doing the vote thing I just did. Now you're CONFIRMED town instead of probably town, and town is better off for it.

But today is the only day that matters. And at this point, for the sake of the game, town is basically me and whoever I decide is also town. I already decided Fish was town, so all your selfvote did was create the

possibility

that Formerfish-scum just auto-wins.

[acryon]

I've seen it happen before.

I would like Killer to weigh in on this before I vote.

Totally fine with that.

UNVOTE: Zebulin

I'd rather avoid any frustrated townie shenanigans.

[acryon]

VOTE: Zebulin

[acryon]

Pleeeeeease

[acryon]

Are you scum Jester?

[acryon]

Whaaaat?

[acryon]

You didn't fight very hard

[acryon]

Man, these lurkerish slots are just sooo hard to pin down