Mini 1648: Mafia in the Noose Factory. (Game Over)

[ploben]

VOTE: randomidget
I want to see your avatar

[ploben]

@Zeb - Salty much?

VOTE: boonskies
I had forgotten that game zeb -_-
I will also hop to house if a wagon forms. He still scares me.

Hahaha...on the surface this reads town because of RVS but I'm trying to picture him saying it in person (whom I've never met) and I don't think you can give this a pass. My RVS vote on randomidget stays and becomes less random.

BTW, nice avatar. Didn't disappoint.

[ploben]

Zebulin is L-1 like 30 seconds into D1. Please don't quick hammer. Let's talk this out people.

[ploben]

Haha, just kidding. Though this was a 9 player game.

Just seeing if you're all paying attention.

[ploben]

Stop it. you are making CT look bad. :b

Haha, you from CT pisskop?

I just logged into MS at work, caught up of the forum, saw the two votes, did a little math, and freaked the f' out when I thought L-1 was 4 votes.

[ploben]

@Zebulin & @Boonskiies

Who cares about last game? You both made your points, saltiness noted, why can't we move on?

[ploben]

@Zebulin & @Boonskiies

Who cares about last game? You both made your points, saltiness noted, why can't we move on?

Interesting that you chose to ignore my request for you to vote Zeb.

Any particular reason for that?

Why do you want to drag players into a bandwagon this early? Before you say to put pressure on them to react I think Zeb has done a fine job in having his voice heard so far, L-1 unnecessary.

Who's your mafia partner BBT?

[ploben]

Ploben, Midget didn't understand your 29 and neither do I. Could you explain it better?

Randomidget participating in RVS voting boonskies but then gives a reason why he will hop onto a wagon for another player for a reason in another game. RVS vote to masking another RVS non-vote? Why not just RVS vote and sit back? Why make two statements in RVS and only vote one person? Either make two statements and don't vote or make one random statement then RVS vote. I realize neither point randomidget brought up is serious but that's what makes it weird for me.

To be honest, I don't like the insta-bussing Zeb and Boonskies is doing. Maybe it's my lack of my meta reading (which I'm on the fence about the whole idea anyway) but it's all too convenient for me at the start of this game.

[ploben]

Boonskiies.

There is 3 of us though and I'm not giving you the last one.

I would like to get Zeb to L-1 and force a claim. Do you object to this? If so, why?

Sure. You start the vote.

[ploben]

I'm from Bristol. That used to be something to brag about

Plainville myself.

Boonskiies.

There is 3 of us though and I'm not giving you the last one.

I would like to get Zeb to L-1 and force a claim. Do you object to this? If so, why?

Sure. You start the vote.

Never mind my horse shit post, BBT's on Zeb in 32.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Zeb

Zeb is L-1

..............maybe now?

[ploben]

If you clowns really think it's a good idea to get someone to claim for no reason then lets just massclaim D1.

Blue starts.

And he keeps one in the chamber in case you ponderin'

[ploben]

VOTE: ploben
joined zeb wagon last

This is.....a fact!

I thought we were going to out a PR early and I got all excited...seemed like a great idea at the time

/sarcasm

[ploben]

UNVOTE: Zebulin

haha this whole zebulin push-veiled-fish is a fucking joke.

This.

Great start town. Our future looks really bright for this game.

[ploben]

45 - Ploben, you didn't answer my question here. Try again.

I answered your question with a question and then in my post 52 agreed to your fishing expedition, even though, as previously express by others, I think it's a joke and waste of time.

Also, you seem to think I am scum here. Why didn't you vote me?

I don't think you're scum. I just feel your actions were unnecessary. I agree that claiming early is not a good thing.

To be honest,

I don't like the insta-bussing Zeb and Boonskies is doing

. Maybe it's my lack of my meta reading (which I'm on the fence about the whole idea anyway) but it's all too convenient for me at the start of this game.

What???

Zeb and Boon came straight into this game making sure everyone knew they were salty because of a couple games ago. I don't care. In fact, it just looks to me like they are distancing themselves unnecessarily on reasons no one cares about. It stands out to me as suspicious.

[ploben]

BBT: Why is a claim now a good thing?

Why didn't you address this question? And go ahead and answer it now, please.

[ploben]

Ploben, Can I ask your total mafia experience?

New to these forums, watched a handful of live mafia on Daily Mafia, and hoping to participate this week in one of those live games.

Never mind my horse shit post, BBT's on Zeb in 32.

Also, what is your reasoning for bringing up post 32?

In my post 52 I didn't think BBT casted a vote for Zeb yet he wanted everyone else to vote Zeb but the fact was that he had already voted for Zeb in his post 32. Just correcting my mistake.

[ploben]

I did vote Zeb for a different reason then to force a claim. I figured, based on his past mafia experience, there was no way he was claiming. I was genuinely interested to see what would people would say after Zeb went L-1. And I'll tell you what, the posts after my vote proved a good read.

I can go into details if you'd like.

[ploben]

Zeb is indeed L-1.

Can someone state intent to hammer?

I don't agree with his early L-1 to force claim. Maybe he was collecting reactions. I'm leaning town.

I like hammers.

Boonskiies is bonkers but I kind of like that because of I have a good sense of humor. Not sure about his alignment, though, with the Zeb interaction.

I am bothered by BBT trying to get a claim out of Zeb - that in itself is odd (in that early claims are often anti-town and only aid scum in PR-hunting) but it's not as bothering as the fact that he outright admits it. Look at Zeb's reaction. You can't force someone to claim by saying you're pushing for a claim, not a lynch - it destroys the pressure of being at L-1. Is this just a poor excuse from BBT to try and avoid responsibility if Zeb flips town? There are plenty of pro-town reasons for not wanting to claim, as Zeb pointed out. I'm not saying that Zeb is necessarily town - this doesn't really affect my view of him - but BBT's stated intent to force a claim seems very fishy to me. Care to share your reasons, BBT? I'm hoping you have a better excuse than "I was PR-hunting", because that's blatant scumminess.
UNVOTE: Zebulin
VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee
To clarify, Zeb is far from off the hook in terms of suspicion for me, but I think the issues with BBT are what needs to be brought to peoples' attention.

PS: I don't think Zeb is likely to PR-claim all game (except if he actually thinks he's about to be lynched), due to the fact that his actions at the start of the game only make sense as VT or scum. Any roleclaim from him is going to be met with instant suspicion, at least by me and I hope by others.

PPS: I would just like to mention that House hasn't posted in the thread yet.

I think this is a good read on his play but I don't think he would be that obvious as scum. Like I said, I don't agree with his play but I don't think it makes him mafia.

[ploben]

Some of the other posts I just found personally amusing and really can't add anything insightful.

@Zebulin

Post 106

[ploben]

This is standard play for bbt.

I think it's just BBT trying something new.

This made me laugh.

Meta reads FTW!

Can I copy your signature BBT?

[ploben]

@Always Mafia

Is your vote for pisskop still RVS or you sticking to your meta read of him? What's your other reads at this point?

[ploben]

This is standard play for bbt.

I think it's just BBT trying something new.

This made me laugh.

Are they both right?

Good point Slandaar. BBTs game could be to try something new every game. So a standard play for BBT is to not be standard and fade what he's done in the past.

[ploben]

I feel after receiving such a nice compliment from Ploben I should continue the compliment giving trend. Pony; You are playing scum really well especially for a newbie.

Why do you think she's playing scum really well?

[ploben]

VOTE: tip

For being such a wonderfully hypocritical lurky fluffmeister.

OK...fine...11 minutes later...

VOTE: tip
I'm following house

Uhhhhhhh...let me ISO randomidget...

Spoiler:

VOTE: boonskies
I had forgotten that game zeb -_-
I will also hop to house if a wagon forms. He still scares me.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

VOTE: Zebulin
I don't like the fact that he's trying to bring up someone else's meta this early in the game. Possible reasons why:
a) He actually, genuinely wants to warn us that he thinks Boonskiies is completely insane as VT, and the town is better off if he's lynched, regardless of alignment. Possible but seems unlikely when Boonskiies hasn't done anything to warrant the meta-warning yet.
b) Zebulin is scum and wishes to encourage a lynch of Boonskiies, who he knows is town.
c) They're both scum and he was trying to provide an excuse for any later mistakes by Boon.
d) I'm overanalyzing random chatter from this stage of the game.
All of these are possible. Personally, I suspect Zebulin because he seems outright manipulative already - he's trying to affect how we look at Boonskiies when we've barely even started.

Also, a point to do with your post that confused me, Zeb: wouldn't tunneling him because you think he's anti-town produce the same negative result as it did in that previous game, since a town-flip by him would inevitably implicate you? If you're both town again, that's two mislynches.

Boon is completely insane. Shouldn't lynch him because of it.

Right!! Let's blame Kilerjester!

And if anyone has any reason to find me untrusting or suspicious, it's BlueBloodedToffee.

Also, my hammer that game with Zebulin on day 1 did hit scum...I may be ridiculous, but village idiot isn't the right word. Most people find that out around day 3.

Tbf, me and allyra found him after like 5 pages.
This is standard play for bbt. In answer to your question, it is bad to force claimd right now as we either get a VT claim or out a PR. We lose either way.

He stated intent.

I wouldn't put it past Boon to just hammer, but I don't think he will.

I fully expect him to.

UNVOTE:
Forgot I was.

VOTE: ploben
joined zeb wagon last

VOTE: tip
I'm following house

OK...sooooo...RVS with meta read (didn't like it, post 29), question to me about my post 29, read on Boon, meta read on BBT, unvote RVS on Boon, vote me for paper thin reason, vote tip to follow house with no additional insight.

I'm not leaving anything out.
That's how randomidget's post history reads this game.

alternatively we can peg down randomidget, but whatever.

THIS

VOTE: randomidget

[ploben]

My post is fairly self-explanatory. Stop trying to obfuscate because it just makes me want to scumread you for soft-defending your buddy.

Show me his hypocracy. House, you know better than that.

Click a fucking ISO link and read his 14 pages of fluff complaining about nothing happening instead of demanding explanations for shit that is so obvious that even I can see it.

ah, yes. that time i openly outted my read on zebulin while simulatenously cutting down the quite possibly the most asinine wagon ever formed on D1 in a mafia game. ch-yeah, that was me fluffing

Fucking THIS again

.
House, please continue expanding your read on tip so far this game. I'm tickled with anticipation to see what's going to come out of your mouth next.

@tip

The question is which do we hang first? The ringleader or his bandwaggoning buddy?

[ploben]

95 - That's right Ploben, criticize the wagon you have just jumped off. Especially as you were the L-1 vote! Why the hell would you put someone within hammering range if the wagon was a joke and a waste of time?

You're probably getting my vote when I finish catching up.

99 - Right, so like I said, you didn't answer my question. So, try again.

Post 106

The push to lynch Zeb wasn't serious enough for a claim because it's way to early in the game and there IS NO THREAT. So you say you want to save 20 pages of nonsense when you're pushing 20 pages of nonsense. If you want to do a push-to-claim move towards the end of the day there is WAAAAAAAY more pressure on the person up for lynch because they know the day is ending and a lynch needs to happen.

Your play is so anti-town and your logic doesn't make any sense to me.

I dislike Zeb's early posting enough to want to get a claim from him.

What specifically didn't you like about Zeb's early posting?

[ploben]

Yeah. They're pro town roles. They die together. I'm not

actually

claiming lovers. *wink*wink*

This is actually not true. They can be aligned the same or even in a town-mafia pair.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Lover

[ploben]

@tip & @Slandaar

Can you share your reads at this point?

[ploben]

Yeah. They're pro town roles. They die together. I'm not

actually

claiming lovers. *wink*wink*

This is actually not true. They can be aligned the same or even in a town-mafia pair.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Lover

I said they are Pro-town roles. Look at the link you sent me...read it. Mhm...Look at the info bar under the picture. It says Alignment: Pro-Town.

I didn't say they were always both town. Please actually read before you make accusations. Thanks.

Huh????? Look at the section under the section you told me to look at and see the alignment under that picture: Anti-town.

Please actually read before you make accusations. Thanks.

[ploben]

@tip & @Slandaar

Can you share your reads at this point?

I tend to find when I post my reads I stick with them a lot more. I prefer not to post them fully yet although they are hinted at. I have 3 suspects and am confident in all of them.

I'm curious here. You're saying when you post them you're more apt to ride those reads until the end. You're saying you have 3 suspects you're confident in. But you don't want to post them? Why not? I think we're on the same page but why not share your information and help us solve this?

BTW, I'm thinking your short list includes BBT & Pony. Not sure about you're 3rd.

[ploben]

@boonskiies

You sent your post while I was typing my post.

Sorry.

Reset!

[ploben]

106 - Ploben, this is weak as fuck. Which is interesting for reasons explained later.

People's experience has no effect on a claim. Where have you plucked that from?

Point is he wasn't going to claim with such a weak ass push to lynch. So what's the next best thing to do as town trying to gather intel on who might be mafia? Hmmmm...maybe L-1 the player (who is going to neither claim nor get lynched that early) and see who speaks up and see what they have to say. THAT might make for some interesting reading not only now but maybe down the road when we have more info after a lynch flip or maybe the next day after a NK.

112 - MY early L-1? I think you mean YOUR early L-1. You're using someone else's reasoning now for what I might have been doing? I think you're scum.

My sentence in post 112 should have read "I don't agree with his early

push for

L-1 to force claim. I misspoke. I never claimed you casted the L-1 vote on Zeb in any other post. I didn't hide the fact whatsoever that I was the L-1 vote on Zeb. Post 55.

163 - There is always a threat. If someone stated intent to hammer, Zeb would have had no choice to claim. Simple as that.

I stated why I think there wasn't a threat. You stated why you think there was. You think my explanation of it is weak. I think your play to push this early was stupid. Stalemate.

[ploben]

194 - Ploben, why are you speaking to Slandaar as if he is town?

I'm speaking to Slander as if I want to hear what he has to say.

[ploben]

You think scum is on the same page as you?

You also want scum to help you solve the game?

Nah, you're talking to him as if he is town.

Dude, you're such a donkey.

You've been calling me scum this entire time and yet what do you do with your vote? Throw it back on Zeb.

So go ahead and get your L-1 on Zeb, get your intent to hammer Zeb, get your early claim from Zeb so he can claim PR, and then we lynch you for outing our PR, or so Zeb can claim VT, and then we lynch you for being donkey town and eliminating a target for mafia to NK.

[ploben]

It's a response to you're entire body of work so far this game.

[ploben]

IF I were to assume you both town, I'd have to question why you would come to a rescue in this way with the colors and the picture that stands out. How would you know enough about Zeb to know this was a bad idea to lynch? Did you have a town read on Zeb from everything to this point?

I thought the vote count on Zeb was L-1. From what I've seen on this site generally when people vote someone they know it's L-1 and they make it clear. The fact that it didn't happen kind of took me back a little so I felt they need to announce the L-1, which in the end was wrong because I had the game size wrong. Thinking 9 total players when in fact 13. Poo poo on me.

It was not about Zeb's alignment and me defending him. It was all about the fact that "player X" is L-1 and that wasn't announced.

I think when you get caught up on the game you'll see my logic on the whole "push Zeb claim" thing in future posts.

[ploben]

Side note: I find it hilarious that you fail to even mention my name when you address me and then call me out on not quoting people. I'm not even angry, just... with that and the spelling mistakes (which I assume are probably due to phone-posting or something) I find it very difficult to take you seriously. Still, I'll try.

Pony I find this interesting that you brought this up. Do you think pisskop is doing this on purpose or that he has no clue he's even doing it, yet calling people out for it?

[ploben]

215 - Ploben, you won't be lynching me. You still didn't answer my question either. I'll even quote it for you to have another go at;

You think scum is on the same page as you?

You also want scum to help you solve the game?

Nah, you're talking to him as if he is town.

My post, to put it into context, was in relation to this;

I'm curious here. You're saying when you post them you're more apt to ride those reads until the end. You're saying you have 3 suspects you're confident in. But you don't want to post them?

Why not? I think we're on the same page but why not share your information and help us solve this?

BTW, I'm thinking your short list includes BBT & Pony. Not sure about you're 3rd.

Specifically, the bolded part seems to imply that he thinks Slandaar is town.

I'm thinking we're on the same page in terms of players he and I think are suspicious. I'd like to hear from him since he's hasn't expanding yet. He's said he's hinted at it so that's all we have to go off of at this point.

[ploben]

@tip

What did randomidget lie about? Him voting for you first? I love pictures but please explain?

[ploben]

@tip

What did randomidget lie about? Him voting for you first? I love pictures but please explain?

This was the fist vote for tip besides tip jokingly voting himself in RVS:

VOTE: tip

For being such a wonderfully hypocritical lurky fluffmeister.

In the very next post, randomidget says this:

VOTE: tip
I'm following house

On page 11, randomidget mentions that:

i wish to shed light on how, instead, it is - pretty transparently - a shitty retaliatory tunnel to being finger of suspicion-ed by myself

I voted you first.

which is clearly a lie. tip was pointing out the lie.

The question is, is that a scumslip or just a stupidslip? (randomidget's not a VI. He was killed Night 1 in a game we shared.)

I thought tip was pointing out the lie that randomidget did not vote on tip before tip voted on randomidget. But I guess you're saying tip pointed out the fact randomidget claims he voted for tip first when in fact he was following house, who voted for tip first.

This is why I like when people explain themselves so I can follow their logic instead of having to try and figure out what they mean and read between the (blury) lines. This is the exact reason I wanted Slandaar to more clearly give us his reads so far so I could see where he was at.

[ploben]

If I question something it's because I don't understand and want someone to explain it. If I question something it's probably because I didn't pick up on something, regardless of how obvious it is to everyone else. I question stuff because I don't want something to get said and just take it for face value and sheep it, I want to understand it for myself.

[ploben]

I want to hear from town and scum. That's how the game works. If I think someone is town then their reads are good to align with. If I think someone is scum then their reads are good to try and figure out the mafia mind set and catch you later with them.

All information is good is this game. I appreciate your intent with the same sentiment. Your actions are speaking to that fact far louder than your words are.

[ploben]

PEdit - Ploben, what is your read on Slandaar? You're very good at dodging questions; ever thought of going into politics?

I'll answer your 2nd question first: No, because I can't stand politicians and the way they dodge questions.
I'm not intentionally dodging questions because I hate when people do that to me and in the context of the game it's clearly scummy looking. I'm trying to answer your questions with explanations instead of just short answers that I feel gives no one else useful information. But it seems in not giving short answers and instead trying to explain I've made myself more unclear.

Slandaar is null to very very very slightly town but I wanted to hear more from him.

I want to hear from town and scum. That's how the game works. If I think someone is town then their reads are good to align with. If I think someone is scum then their reads are good to try and figure out the mafia mind set and catch you later with them.

All information is good is this game. I appreciate your intent with the same sentiment. Your actions are speaking to that fact far louder than your words are.

Do you want to work with scum, Ploben?

No, I don't

[ploben]

So, by asking Slandaar to work with you, can I assume you are town reading him?

You can assume whatever you want BBT. As I just posted my read on him: "Slandaar is null to very very very slightly town but I wanted to hear more from him."

In terms of "working" with him, here's what I originally asked of him (and tip, also):

@tip & @Slandaar

Can you share your reads at this point?

[ploben]

@Zeb

I'd like to know what you think I lied about? That way you can ask me about it and I'll dodge the question.

/sarcasm

[ploben]

Oobledoobleimhereoobledooblelynchtipoobledooble

Yeah...cause that's productive.

[ploben]

Voice of the town...voice of the town...that's all I see in BBT's posts. Instead of enlightening town he just wants to lead it.

[ploben]

Voice of the town...voice of the town...that's all I see in BBT's posts. Instead of enlightening town he just wants to lead it.

Elaborate.

More recently BBT has been really steering the conversation and really trying to lead town. Since the start of the game he's always had a confrontational way about him but more than that he's really been directing players in what way they should go and how they should think as opposed to enlightening players on his thoughts and reads and letting them decide for themselves.

BBT's posts like 97, 98, 160, 197, and 201 show more of the "enlightening" BBT where he wants to show us where his head's at and to remind me to stop dodging his questions and answer them. But most of his posts after 391 seem to be just pushing his agenda onto other players and telling them how to think (and not think) and how they should be reading players.

[ploben]

I haven't seen much in 2 days IRL that makes me want to change me vote. Tip going silent peaks my interest a little.

[ploben]

I haven't seen much in 2 days IRL that makes me want to change me vote. Tip going silent peaks my interest a little.

Piques.

The word is piques.

Thank you. I'm dumb.

[ploben]

@Zeb

Where's random on your read list?

[ploben]

Tip looking for a replacement? Any chance his early behavior, then sudden drop off, and now replacement request points to a scum alignment?

[ploben]

I wasn't thinking anything in particular, made an early read then his style of posting was just odd. I asked about the lie he "uncovered" about random in post 273 and it took him 2 days (369 before he mentioned it and explained it wasn't about the vote order but about the tunneling random was doing on the back of house's vote.

It was more his strange style, don't care attitude with his posts. It seemed like he knew what he wanted to do so if he was town he could have just continued playing and started picking people off. Although, if he was mafia I guess it would be easy to hide behind some of the nonsense going on a last a few days.

It's just very strange to me the way it went down.

[ploben]

Correction: "I wasn't thinking anything in particular,

he

made an early read then his style of posting was just odd."

[ploben]

I guess I'm trying to read more than I should into the way he played then the sudden drop off and now his replacement.

[ploben]

BBT, then when I flip town what are you going to do? Lynch Zeb? Then when he flips town what are you going to do? Ask your mafia team who you think you all can get lynched next without drumming up too much suspicion on yourself?

Seriously, Zeb and Ploben could be scum together. I don't do associatives pre-flip...

"But I'm going to do it anyway and hope no one notices I just contradicted myself and push for a mislynch today and then use that same contradicting logic to mislynch tomorrow"

[ploben]

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee
Because BBT says he doesn't do associative pre-flips but the will vote like he does and mock town right in their face with contradicting logic.


Oh and he PR hunts too...but I guess that doesn't matter to anyone anymore.

[ploben]

And because the random wagon is dead with one of those votes coming from a replacement player.

[ploben]

Oh sorry BBT, and because OMGUS

[ploben]

U mad bro? Do you even lift?

[ploben]

I'll make this nice and easy for everyone to track back to this when coming up for arguments to lynch me, especially you BBT.

VOTE: tip

Tip is L-1

[ploben]

See, this is ridiculous. Tip is town and thank you BBT for continuing your push on me and tunneling on me with my tip vote in 563. I'll be happy to lynch you tomorrow.

UNVOTE: tip
VOTE: randomidget

I liked this vote from the start and the fact that tip and slandaar are on it makes it alright for me.

[ploben]

I mildly dislike the ploben wagon because MonkeyMan is on it. I'm still willing to vote to prevent NL or on a future day, though, since I'm more confident that ploben is scum than that MonkeyMan is.

Explain this logic to me:
You dislike the wagon on me because MonkeyMan is on it (I'm assuming you think he's scum), but you're willing to vote on me just to lynch someone today, but you're "more confident that ploben is scum than that MonkeyMan is.", yet your vote sits on tip.

Can someone please explain to me what tip has done which warrants two people voting him over people who have actually acted scummily?

Can YOU please explain to me why your vote is on him then?

I feel okay with a lynch on any of tip, Monkey, or ploben in light of ploben's ridiculous opportunism. My vote will thus go to whichever wagon is largest when I log off before the deadline, unless we lynch before then or more points of interest are raised.

You want to talk about opportunistic? I think your quote is a shining example of it right there.

[ploben]

I'm really starting to understand tip's frustration.

[ploben]

VOTE: randomidget

Screw it, there's your midget vote. It's purely compromise, as I am reading ploben and Kaboose as scum.

What the? Why would you come off of me if I'm your scumread? What compromise?

[ploben]

Am I L-2? OK, cool.

We're just going to pretend it's ok for everyone else to vote jump? OK, cool.

[ploben]

No

[ploben]

Cause I'm L-2

[ploben]

unvote.

gg no re k thx

[ploben]

House?

[ploben]

[ploben]

(get’s teary eyed)

I never thought this day would come…I can’t believe it....

(takes out folded paper)

I’d like to thank the academy, my cat Larry, and God. Without them I wouldn't be here accepting this lynch.

My album drops Apruary 35th. Check it out in stores. It’s called Get Rich or Get Lynched Tryin’

I’m a 2-Shot Tracker.

[ploben]

Spoiler: Y'know what I'm sayin?

[ploben]

GG all. Sorry tip, I screwed you D2 without even trying, figured you were town for sure.

Dude, you're such a donkey.

Also also, before I forget... Who's the donkey now?

Bitch.

The force is strong with this one.