Mini 1653: A Game of Pokes - game over

[vikingfan]

Greetings all!

What's Kelbris' timezone, out of curiousity?

And this is my second game back after a years-long hiatus. FAQ2 and Cheetory played with me in the first one so they have a
n idea of how I play. I think I played with massive in the old days too.

And since we're in the RVS of the game, what's everyone's story of how they picked their user name. I'm a fan of the MN Vikings and that's about all there is to it .

[vikingfan]

I ditto FA. Claiming this early is pointless and useless. But it may just be a newbie mistake. But why are you claiming so early? this helps absolutely no one.

And I don't use alts. I've found I'm not very easy to meta, but if someone wants to try to, have at it.

ANd that post assumes that you are telling the truth, but we have only your word for that. Let me put it this way, if your play was optimal, then EVERYONE, scum and town alike, would claim VT on day one. There's a reason that doesn't happen. Also, A, how do you know we have a vig? B, how do we know we have doctors? I never assume anything about any setup, been burned too many times by mods. It is LIKELY we have a cop and doc and possibly a vig but I've also seen games without at least one of those roles.

[vikingfan]

So, Flames, you just say that Hodor's post is scummy, vote him, and that's it. Mind contributing some on the other players?

Kelbris' play is stupid (page 3? Seriously?) but I'm inclined to write it off as newbtown. Lynching later does have the policy advantage of knowing we're not killing a town PR (town PRs should NEVER claim townie).

[vikingfan]

Very quick summary of where I'm at with each player before I go to bed:

massive Null at this point
havingfitz null
Wickedestjr Town
Cheetory6 Leaning town
FA_Q2 Leaning town
Hodor Hodor: more quantity please.
burn_209 leaning town
kelbris: I'm inclined to write him off as an extreme newbtown at this point.
Slandaar want to see more on this one, not sure at the moment.
Flames of Disaster *votes Hodor, is challenged to justify his vote, and immediately asks for replacement. I need to look at his profile and see if this is typical behavior or if this is possible scum having trouble standing up to scrutiny.
randomidget: Same as Hodor.
Riblet: Null

I'm going to

vote Flames

at this point because I really didn't like the way that whole sequence went there.

[vikingfan]

well that was a useless post and to top it off you vote a player who has requested replacement so can't even defend himself.

It was more a statement of 'this is sketchy' to me at this point in time. I would not have made the vote if there was any sort of wagon on flames at the momnet since he is currently pending a replacement.

What kind of superstar are you looking for, Cheetory?

[vikingfan]

Posting from a phone so first unvote (phone won't let me bold it for some reason).

[vikingfan]

And for a second post so I can actually look somewhat at the posts. My vote on flames was a statement that I found him his behavior scummy even though he replaced out. Players have played scummy before being replaced. That said, it was more a statement that I didn't like it than 'this guy must be lynched'.

Will post when I'm in front of a computer soon

[vikingfan]

Riblet & Slandarr
You seem to be arguing back and forth, walling at each other, rather than reading the rest of the game.
It's boring and I'm not getting much out of it except that you are perfectly happy to nitpick every line of each other's posts.
Would you both, in a short post, tell the class what you've found out in doing this and promptly come back to the real world?
I appreciate your passions, but it's really not doing us much good right now from what I can see.
If you can summarize your findings, I may be persuaded to vote with one of you.

@Viking
So, it was a statement that said what?
Can you tell me again what he had done that was scummy and why you thought it worth a scumread and a vote, but not worth a lynch?

Not sure why you're asking me the same question over again but again, I thought it suspicious he did a naked vote, then when challenged, he left. It was fishy to me so I figured it was worth a vote to state as much but obviously I wanted to give his replacement a fair chance. And others didn't like Flames' play either, as you will see by the thread.

Kelbris, your anecdotal point is nice but since you're the one making it, it doesn't carry as much weight with me. THe point being, early VT claiming is always a bad play. Even if you're a cop (where announcing it might be SOMEWHAT plausible so as to gain night protection with the assumption a doc is in the game) is still a bad play.

and UNVOTE: now that I'm back in front of a computer.

I need to take a closer look at this game this weekend no later than Saturday. The massive amount of replacements is making it hard for me to keep track of who said what and replaced who and I need a good reread. In the meantime, the whole riblet/slandaar fighting thing doesn't carry much water for me and I'm glad it's ended so it's not cluttering up the game.

[vikingfan]

Dang, so many replacements makes this game hard . Former, basically the only notable things so far is that randomidget isn't contributing that much so far, slandaar and riblet (your predecessor), have been at each other's throats, kelbris stupidly claimed townie on page 3 with absolutely no pressure whatsoever.

So many replacements is really hurting the game because there's no way to follow up on behavior. For example, I can't ask former about riblet's play because they're not the same player so it makes riblet's play mostly irrelevant.

I think I responded to you before Wicked, but this sentence from before pretty much sums it up for me. Not sure why you're asking me the same question over again but again, I thought it suspicious he did a naked vote, then when challenged, he left. It was fishy to me so I figured it was worth a vote to state as much but obviously I wanted to give his replacement a fair chance. And others didn't like Flames' play either, as you will see by the thread.

I'm going to take a closer look now and see if I can make sense of anything upon a reread.

[vikingfan]

After looking back, my best scumread is random. Everyone else is null for me at this point.

Random, why do you believe kelbris is town? you say he is but don't give any backup for it. You make a lot of statements but don't back them up. People don't like backing up their statements because it provides something that can be referred to later.

VOTE: vote random

[vikingfan]

@Massive - Can you remind me why you are voting Oka? I had Hodor as Town.

There is none. For some reason, I think he seems to believe that Oka Poka replaced Riblet, not Hodor. See this post.

if you are town and not scum (doubtful) you are so blinded by OMGUS you don't even make sense anymore.

The irony in this quote is painful. Your case includes "I don't believe you actually were sick" and you expect us to believe Slandaar is the OMGUSy one?

If it comes down to Slandaar or Riblet, I'm more likely to vote Riblet. Riblet's case on Slandaar is hands-down awful, but I can't see scum sticking out their neck like this to draw so much attention to themselves D1. Slandaar's countercase isn't as bad, but it's causing him to ignore the rest of the game to some degree, which makes it feel like defense is all he's got right now. Neither are obvious scum so, if pressed, I'd vote for the one providing more noise than content. That being said, I hope it doesn't come down to that.

unvote
vote OkaPoka

Mind explaining, Massive? Your behavior currently is making no sense given your attack of Oka for a player that he didn't even replace into.

[vikingfan]

sorry, life got incredibly busy IRL. Let me give a quick post now after I catch up but I will post something more substantial on Sunday.

[vikingfan]

OK, Wicked, I think I understand your question a little more. Quite simply I dont' know why Flames would cast a vote he couldn't justify. But it's still bad behavior and people have done it before and been scum (and also, admittedly, town). beyond that, I don't really have anything to offer you because I'm still not completely sure i understand what you're trying to get at.

As for the second part of your post, I must have missed his response in the reread. Sometimes things strike me upon a reread that didn't at the time they occurred.

Currently, Monkey, your post confuses me. So your post wasn't directed toward me but toward oka? did you have anything for me or did you have nothing?

[vikingfan]

catching up now, weekend was much busier than expected. My apologies (seems like this is happening to half the game, sadly, judging from everyone else's responses. but my sincere apologies for vanishing. Truth be told, the main reason I'm staying in is to eliminate ika looking for yet another replacement and I don't want to do that to ika.

No, I didn't miss the randomidget discussion, it's just what struck me most upon a reread. Not much more to it than that. Remember, I pretty much had to discard half the early game because of replacements. That was one of hte few things that came to me that I could actually do something with as compared to 'well, I can't ask so and so about this post because they're gone'.

As for posts that stand out to me since the last time I posted:

Saul, that post that former made doesn't stand out much to me either way. It's an easy post for either town or scum to make so to me it's a null tell.
Aristophanes, I concur with Slandaar. It's not nitpicking to me if Slandaar and riblet are both attacking each other line by line post by post. That's a debate. That said, it's also a debate most of the town got tired pretty quickly.
Wicked-if I'd known that post of mine would have gotten that much attention, I never would have made it. I probably should have done a FOS instead and it was way too early in the game considering his relatively little posting.

As for my lynch list in no particular order:
Though I've been leaning Kelbris = newbtown, I do agree with wicked that POLICYWISE, he is the best lynch for day one. We eliminate outing any PRs day one (always a plus in my book), and as wicked says, he's not a power role. I'm honestly not sure how much information we'd get though but it would be something to work off for day 2.
Aristophanes seems way too 'let everyone else do the work for me'. I don't like those kind of players and ESPECIALLY not in the endgame. All it takes is one very assertive scum to hold sway over Aristo and we've lost. Everyone else is busy too- I am, wicked is, etc. We still do our own thinking. It also leans to me like 'if I'm scum, then I don't want to risk incriminating myself.'
Ditto, FA is not a replacement. Monkey, what are you talking about? it's right there in page one.
random is still the same.

[vikingfan]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p6609413

Read how he replaces in to that game; very recent game just ended. I didn't even know this till now, begin the lynch.

What about that post is supposed to make me vote Fishie?

And

FOS Aristo

for basically just sheeping because Slandaar said so. Think for yourself please. Frankly, wicked, Aristo fulfills condition 3 on your list because I don't want him in the endgame, too easily influenced.

[vikingfan]

oops, that was havingfitz who had that as 3 on his list, my bad. And I posted that last part before I read Aristo's last post, though it still seems like he's looking for guidance a little too much.

[vikingfan]

I give up on this game. I'll just hammer myself.

I really really hope you're not a PR. Or is this an attempt to make us not lynch you?

I was going to go the kelbris route due to it being the best policy (I don't like risking outing/killing PRs day 1, especially this close to deadline) but this post is making me reconsider. Mind explaining?

And no, I'm not putting Oka -1 yet. I'll be on again between now and deadline so I can cast a vote if we're not close to a lynch but longer days are beneficial for town.

[vikingfan]

I agree as well. Policywise, kelbris seems to be the best play. Though Oka seems to have a lot of the same benefits (I highly doubt a PR would offer to self-hammer, a PR would claim rather than self-hammer so I'm pretty sure Oka is either VT or scum) so I guess it depends on which one people prefer.

And I totally agree on random and Aristo but it seems like that has no juice so it's either oka or kelbris, we just need to settle on one to avoid a no-lynch.

[vikingfan]

UNVOTE: I can get on board with a monkey lynch, I'm not a fan of the oka wagon or the people on it. [[/vote]monkey[/vote]. Posting from my phone so if this looks strange that's why.

[vikingfan]

VOTE: monkey. Let's try this again

[vikingfan]

That's L-2 for the record and now tied with the oka wagon

[vikingfan]

VOTE: Monkey

We had nine hours left, could have at least waited for a claim...

...oh well, I wouldn't have believed a power role claim anyway.

Did you see fitz's earlier post about how he had RL tonight? So he had to post when he did to break the deadlock because he won't be on for the rest of the evening.

[vikingfan]

OK...well so much for the random Idgit wagon

I'm more suspect of Oka than I am of Monkey. That said...I'm more suspect of the players on the Oka wagon than I am of those on Monkey. i.e. most of my stronger town reads are on Monkey while my top two suspects (easy though they may be????) are on Oka.

I'll check back in in a few hours and will move my vote (to where tbd) before 6pm est. Would like to hear Slandaar's thoughts before potentially closing the thread down. After 6pm I will be offline the rest of the day.

This post to be exact.

Monkey, mind telling us what you are? Or I suppose we could just wait for the mod...

[vikingfan]

So far my suspicions are still the same as yesterday, and my opinion on random still hasn't changed one iota. Lack of contribution is only hurting the town and he's still my #1 suspect at the moment. Too bad I had to move off it to ensure a lynch.

[vikingfan]

We have yet to hear from Wicked, random, and Saul since the game restarted so yeah prods are warranted.

I want to hear from wicked personally myself and random is not doing anything to erase my suspicion of him with his extremely low contributioin quotient. He's still my #1 suspect currently and there's no way on earth I want him to last until endgame. Unfortunately it takes other people to create a wagon to at least get him to contribute.

Upon preview, wicked's working on his post so that's a start.

[vikingfan]

havingfitz

, what made you decide to vote Monkey? You were leaning towards voting Oka in your last post before hammering.

We had nine hours left, could have at least waited for a claim...

...oh well, I wouldn't have believed a power role claim anyway.

Did you see fitz's earlier post about how he had RL tonight? So he had to post when he did to break the deadlock because he won't be on for the rest of the evening.

Yes, I was fully aware of fitz's post. I don't think that justifies the pre-claim hammer. e.g. havingfitz could have asked somebody on the Monkey bandwagon to unvote until Monkey claimed: I would have been happy to.

This I don't understand. If you would have been happy to unvote until Monkey claimed, then why didn't you? you could have easily said that you were waiting until he claimed. I'm assuming here that you would have been available to hammer if need be.

I want to hear from wicked personally myself and random is not doing anything to erase my suspicion of him with his extremely low contributioin quotient. He's still my #1 suspect currently and there's no way on earth I want him to last until endgame. Unfortunately it takes other people to create a wagon to at least get him to contribute.

Upon preview, wicked's working on his post so that's a start.

Why do you want to hear from me?[/quote]

Because I was A, interested in hearing your responses to massive's questions and B, interested in getting input from the players who haven't chimed in yet on day 2 of the game (now day 3).

[vikingfan]

I realize it's only Day 2, but isn't it time to start ACTUALLY scumhunting?

Fish is town. Wickedest is town. Fitz is likely town. The rest of you need to start convincing us why we shouldn't be voting for you.

----

Ongoing Kelbris checklist:

Buddy the dead cop : CHECK

I've been hunting people but nobody's been going with me, especially on random. I think what you mean is that people aren't necessarily voting WITH you, which is something very different.

And nice job of labeling who's automatically town and leading the town. Nobody you listed is automatically town in my book, especially not this early on day 2.

[vikingfan]

forgot to post here I'm on V/LA due to being on vacation through Tuesday and seeing family, will try and post soon if I have time but since I'm seeing family for the first time since Christmas, RL comes first of course .

[vikingfan]

dang, I go on V/LA and nothing changes in 2 days .

Saul, the game is played by playing and interacting, not by lurking. Though the scummiest thing by far I've seen is putting oka -1 without even informing anyone. I've been beating this drum all game so am glad to see others following the same line of thought. VOTE: vote random

and I concur with havingfitz, is there a reason why you listed all these players as town? especially oka and kelbris?

on kelbris leaving but I don't blame you.

[vikingfan]

viking...

I don't think you ever listed me as scum so your point to havingfitz doesn't make sense.

I haven't, yet, but you've been a main candidate so far and wicked has listed you as a scum candidate before. When I was asking, it wasn't a reflection of how I felt about you, it was a reflection of how wicked felt about you. Make sense?

[vikingfan]

viking...

I don't think you ever listed me as scum so your point to havingfitz doesn't make sense.

I haven't, yet, but you've been a main candidate so far and wicked has listed you as a scum candidate before. When I was asking, it wasn't a reflection of how I felt about you, it was a reflection of how wicked felt about you. Make sense?

I have never listed Oka as a scum candidate. In fact, he is one of the few players (if not, the only player) that I have consistently town read.

Hmm, after reviewing your ISO, in post #437, you note that oka is a very weak town read but also acknowledge that oka would be a very informative lynch. Do you still believe this?

Oka is probably town and this recently-formed wagon on random is even worse. Can we vote somebody for something

other

than lack of contribution? I

still

get the impression that these wagons revolve around contribution-levels. Sorry, but I don't sign up for mafia games to policy lynch. We are currently pursuing null tells that towns chase after in virtually

every game

that I've played... Maybe that's why everyone's so bored. Oka and random clearly don't care about racking up town points. Let's go after something more interesting, like vikingfan's interest in my Monkey-case only after he helped with the mislynch:

Because I was A, interested in hearing your responses to massive's questions and B, interested in getting input from the players who haven't chimed in yet on day 2 of the game (now day 3).

You were interested in hearing my response to massive's questions about my vote for Monkey?

Huh...

You didn't seem interested when you made this post:

UNVOTE: I can get on board with a monkey lynch, I'm not a fan of the oka wagon or the people on it. VOTE: monkey. Posting from my phone so if this looks strange that's why.

Vote: vikingfan

Any particular reason for this? Or is it simply this previous post?

This I don't understand. If you would have been happy to unvote until Monkey claimed, then why didn't you? you could have easily said that you were waiting until he claimed.

I didn't un-vote because a.) I wasn't expecting havingfitz to hammer and b.) un-voting can be seen as false expression of doubt, even if I make it clear that I'm just waiting for a claim.

Because I was A, interested in hearing your responses to massive's questions and B, interested in getting input from the players who haven't chimed in yet on day 2 of the game (now day 3).

You were interested in hearing my response to massive's questions about my vote for Monkey?

Huh...

You didn't seem interested when you made this post:

UNVOTE: I can get on board with a monkey lynch, I'm not a fan of the oka wagon or the people on it. VOTE: monkey. Posting from my phone so if this looks strange that's why.

To start with, I don't get your claim that you weren't expecting havingfitz to hammer. You yourself specifically said it was all up to havingfitz to vote, havingfitz noted RL reasons why he had to hammer soon. What exactly did you expect to happen? When players reference R/L events, I tend to believe them unless given pressing reason otherwise and I haven't seen it this game. also, you can specifiy that you're watiing for a claim when you unvote and people can take it as they will. plus, a little later, you note that you wouldn't have believed a power role claim anyway so obviously a claim didn't matter to you at all.

and I'm interested in hearing different people's reactions, especially since there's so little going on.

As for random, I'm not impressed by a vote with a promise of a case, I'll wait to see what your case is before I can rebut anything.

[vikingfan]

Sure. If Oka is scum and there's a viable bandwagon, his buddies aren't going to sit on Oka for towncred in the off-chance he gets lynched -- they're instead going to (at least one) vote for the counterwagon in an attempt to save their buddy. Make sense?

Yeah. I had forgotten Oka was the CW so I didn't put that together. Did anyone move from Oka to Monkey towards the end, though? That's the place to look if you are going to follow through with this plan...

I looked back through iknal's vc's and it doesn't look like it. The monkeyman wagon came together from people who weren't voting oka or monkey at all but other players instead, like me, former, random, etc.

[vikingfan]

Finace was in the emergency room tonight. I did not have time to do anything.

Sorry to hear that Former. Is she going to be okay?

[vikingfan]

the attempt at math here makes me itch.

This is math too -

there's at least one more scum on Monkey's wagon

Also THIS:

It is a complete toss up for me between the two of them.

also makes me itch. Given that it's a toss-up between the two, why vote for the one who ISN'T at L-2?

My vote had been on Oka prior to unvoting when he reached L-1 too quickly IMO. That was a ~week ago....my opinion of him and random hasn't changed or shifted elsewhere. They are still my top two suspects atm. Oka's my preference atm. Barely.

He seems to be everyone’s preference.

Not much else seems to be going on and we are making zero headway past Oka so far this day. I am willing to hammer in 24 hours if there are no objections. We have time left but we are not using it effectively at all and Oka would give us some much needed info.

intent to hammer Oka

Random is also at -1 given this scenario (I wasn't aware oka was already at -1, I just thought random was). So it looks like we have 2 lynch candidates for today. What do we want to do at this point? If we're bent on lynching oka, then we should preserve claims for tomorrow. Who do people prefer to lynch? Random has gone MIA so I'm not sure we can expect much out of him.

[vikingfan]

I don’t think random is going to give us any info at all and is a sub par lynch compared to Oka.

The problem is, I don't want random anywhere near lylo. I agree oka is probably the most informative lynch, but if oka is town, I think he could be very helpful in endgame. I can't see random being that, whether he's town or not.

[vikingfan]

oka is actually interacting with the game and with other people. random has promised cases on 2 people and hasn't delivered on either. Notice I didn't say way more helpful, just that given a choice between the two, I'd rather have oka than random, that's all.

Too scummy to be scum is NOT a valid defense.

And random finally pops in with a one-shot vig claim. He had to claim SOMETHING, because he knew a VT claim would have gotten him lynched. That said, if he's telling the truth, is there a way we can direct his kill? (I doubt he lives the night so if we use the kill, it has to be now). Or is it better to simply forgo the possible kill altogether for fear of hitting a PR?

[vikingfan]

also, havingfitz, I don't blame him for not nightkilling if he is a one-shot vig, to me, that's a far more powerful role endgame than early when you run a high risk of killing a PR. I wouldn't have done it either.

[vikingfan]

I really don't like random's play just now. He knows we're all asking for him to join in, then finally when FA asks for a claim, he immediately jumps in 20 minutes later, gives his claim, gives town points to FA, and disappears again. No answer to anything else people have been asking and I doubt we'll get anything. It's clear to me he's reading, he's just not playing.

[vikingfan]

Dang, I hate using posters' posting times but look at this ISO:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... 6&sr=posts

He's posted in other games twice since he posted in this one at 4:36 central time (my time). He posted on Sunday promising a case on me tomorrow(last Monday). Here are his posts since then:

since he made that post Sunday he posted twice on Sunday.
EIGHT times on Monday (the day he promised a case on me, and that's not even including the case he promised on oka before that).
FIVE times on Tuesday.
TWICE on Wednesday.
and finally posts this morning apologizing for not being able to contrinbute much (um, you've been plenty able to contribute, you just haven't chosen to post given your myriad postings in other games).
and has psoted twice since he posted here.

Any questions?

[vikingfan]

Vote Oka

Rando is going to shoot. We are not going to try to handcuff him because that idea is fucking stupid.

So you trust a player who has put in absolutely nothing into the game to shoot accurately (if he's telling the truth)? sorry, I don't.

[vikingfan]

other than eliminate either possible scum or a diatraction to us all in coming days. This seems like the best place to have a vig shoot, no?

Do we even know if random is active enough to BE a vig shoot? This is all predicated around random being a SANE rational player, never mind a town one. Whatever we assign, do we even know that he will make the kill?

I'm not willing to do this unless random pops on here and SAYS he will make a vig shot. Otherwise, he can 'forget' to make the kill like he's forgotten to make the case on oka and then we're no farther tomorrow than we were today.

The annoying thing is that he's posting enough that we can't just ask for a replace...

[vikingfan]

also, can we get a prod on Saul? He hasn't posted since Monday...everyone else seems to have posted at least once in the last 48 hours...

[vikingfan]

random has posted once already today and 3 times yesterday. Nothing here in this game.

Mod, is there any way we can get a replace on random? It's pretty obvious he's unofficially quit on this game and quite frankly, I want him gone otherwise because scum will never kill him given his lack of playing. Sure, he has a claim of being a one-shot vig, but if he's not playing, then his shot, if he's town, is useless to us.

[vikingfan]

also, as long as I'm tracking people who haven't posted recently, Saul hasn't posted since Monday and wicked since Wednesday. Any chance we can get prods on these players given the upcoming deadline?

[vikingfan]

There are ways around it.

Other than not shooting....how does a vig avoid miskills?

one way I can think of is killing a cop's guilty result, but unfortunately we already lost our cop . That's the only way I can think of.

[vikingfan]

Ughh... I'd been town reading random pretty much all game, but that 1-shot vig claim just feels weird...

I need to think about him and Oka... Kop is probably town.

Also, if he's town, mis-kill prevention is an

awful

reason to lynch random. There are ways around it.

how is kop town?

Kelbris was town for a reason that I gave not long before he replaced out. Kip appears not to care about how he is perceived. It's largely a gut feel, but I think he's genuinely interested in hunting scum, even if he's not doing much.

We could tell random who to kill. That doesn't prevent mis-kills, but it does remove the fear of having a kill in the hands of an untrusted player.

This is a horrible idea. Iso me and find my post where I already explained why this will never work.

I checked your iso and... I saw no reasoning given. Please quote and bold whatever it is I'm missing.

well it mainly comes from his white knighting me day 1 and the fact that he wants to pick who to vig for random.

Don't accuse me of white knighting. I get that accusation all the time as town and it is incredibly annoying. Believe it or not, it is very common for me to disagree with the majority (and correctly so). I can't remember the last time I defended a townie, as scum, with the intention of getting town points later.

Also, I never suggested that I decide on a vig shot. I'd love to, but I'm fully aware of the fact that I'm not confirmed town. What I had in mind: we all, together, make the decision if we feel that we can make a better choice than what random would.

Do you have any confidence whatsoever that rando would actually make the kill? Given his posting, I can't be sure that he would do it. And then we're up a creek without a paddle because say he doesn't make the kill. is it due to lack of activity or due to him being scum or ?

Like I said before, unless random actually posts and says he's doing it, I'm not on board with this plan.

[vikingfan]

So...tomorrow night middle of the night (my time) is the deadline. And we're missing Saul and need a replacement and there's no guarantee we'll hear from random prior to the deadline so we basically need a lynch of 6 people with only 9 active players. Which hurts us because trying to analyze a vote count off today's lynch will be very difficult because nearly all the active players need to be on it so we all have to come to one accord.

Mod, is there any way we can get an extension to the deadline with Saul's absence? or a replacement of random so we have 11 active players for today's lynch?

[vikingfan]

ALRIGHT, i'm inclined to agree with wicked that kop and oka are town. If we look at criteria people have for suspecting people today, vikingfan fits all of them (on monkey wagon, medium conyent lecels, etc.) my vote is sticking.

Nice of you to show up. I also notice you said absolutely nothing about anything people have been discussing. So assuming you are town, are you willling to shoot tonight? are you ever going to post your promised case on oka? among other things. Don't think that your one-shot vig claim automatically gets you off the hook.

[vikingfan]

More to the point, he says in his first post that he thought he was already lynched but will catch up. 5 minutes later he's already caught up and has an about-face that oka is town? that doesn't sound right. If he genuinely wasn't reading enough to know that he was still alive, 5 minutes is not enough to both catch up and do a change in stance.

[vikingfan]

Wicked. If we tell Rando to shoot Kop and Kop is a town PR he is going to out himself to avoid dying, which is just as bad.

Kop replaced Kelbris, and Kelbris claimed to be a VT as I recall. So this point is invalid. Oka also claimed to be VT so if we're going to instruct rando to kill someone without risking outing a PR, those are our only options.

[vikingfan]

Forgot to post it. I only really voted oka because it seemed like the one way of advancing the game.

So you first think oka is bad news and promise to post a case on him? Then you never do. Now oka is town and you just conveniently forget? And you think you're lynched (without actually reading the game) so stop playing rather than checking back in. And you still haven't commented on whether or not you're willing to commit to proving your ability to shoot someone if we give you the opportunity?

I'm very happy with my vote at present. Rando is all over the place with no consistency whatsoever. We don't take things for granted here 'this is what I thought'. The only way for us to know what you're thinking is for you to post it. I hope, no matter what you are, you've learned something about playing mafia this game.

Also, why did you not begin commenting on all the stuff going on here rather than one line hit and runs?

[vikingfan]

Random has yet to say he would kill so my vote is staying until and unless he shows willingness to follow the plan

[vikingfan]

Wicked would probably be the best candidate for that.

Fitz, have you seen that random wants to actually follow your plan? Or are you just operating on blind faith that random will kill kop to save his hide so we can move on?

[vikingfan]

also, why the rush to move over votes right now? I want to hear what EPM has to say as a new player so we get everyone on record before the lynch.

[vikingfan]

Random, are you going to shoot Kop? Yes or no? It looks like that's the plan we're going with so I want confirmation from you that you are following along with this plan.

and EPM, any thoughts on what you have read so far?

[vikingfan]

and agreed, asking to mention that he's at L-1 is laughable given that the vc was just posted.

[vikingfan]

He's said nothing about it at all. Have you seen his posts? It's the height of unreliability 'oh I forgot to say that'. The last thing I want is random flaking and saying he forgot tomorrow.

[vikingfan]

Wicked would probably be the best candidate for that.

I will not be doing this.

Random, are you going to shoot Kop? Yes or no? It looks like that's the plan we're going with so I want confirmation from you that you are following along with this plan.

Who said this was the plan we were going with? When did this become "the plan"?

Firstly, I thought you said you weren't on board with the directing plan...

Secondly, Kop is probably town and I would be disappointed if he died tonight.

I'm not really on board with it but given the short duration until the deadline, I'm going with it because it seems like everyone else is and I can't change people's minds. That's why I'm trying to make sure random is the one who's on board with the plan because he's the one we're counting on.

Unless you've seen where a bunch of people are on board AGAINST the plan as things stand now. At some point you accept what hte majority is going to do and leave it at that until the next day, similar to what you're trying to do with a lynch on me considering you've tried for 2 days now and haven't gotten anywhere. It doesn't mean you dismiss it, it means you recognize it's not going to happen that day and restart the next day when there's more time and hopefully the town is more likely to listen to you. That's how mafia works.

Let me ask this question: let's say random doesn't post that he's going to shoot. What do we do then? go ahead and vote oka and hope random follows through? Skate with a last-minute plan at the last minute? I don't think enough people will go for that. Unless town has a massive about-face that I haven't seen coming yet.

[vikingfan]

Interesting. I also find it interesting that idget doesn't even mention the possibility of a doctor (the most common way someone is saved). I'm not bulletproof so that's not it so either random is lying and is actually scum or roleblocker or doc of some type. And if a doctor saved me (regular, oneshot, or otherwise), don't out yourself please, you'll be marked for death by scum right away and I'd rather keep our PRs in the dark. In any case, assuming idget is telling the truth about being a one-shot vig, his shot is used up now so he's useless. But if he's scum, then the lack of a second kill makes sense. Thoughts?

[vikingfan]

So Random voted for Viking, and Viking voted Random, so Random has shot the guy that both were voting for each other, so let's put another assumption out here, from thinking more about it, it might be far fetched, but I'd like others thoughts on this too, not just from Random or Viking.

Viking sees that Random has voted for him and with random roleclaiming one shot vig, viking may think with his vote being on him, he was the one he was going to shoot, so lets assume viking is scum, to which one of his partners is the roleblocker or viking could be the roleblocker, anyway to which they use to block his shot in case that random shoots him because that's where his vote is, so whilst he is saved, it would put doubt amongst the town that he is telling the truth about his shot.

Okay, this is too much wine.
Why would we assume all of this and what does it tell us?
If we are assuming all of this, why no vote on Viking?

Didn't think of that -_-
I still have mt shot if I was rbed.

Is that a thing?
I feel like that's not a thing.

Why would you assume your shot is still valid if RB'd?

I was asking other people's thoughts on it. I don't want to push another lynch forward and end up with another mislynch. But the more and more I think about it the only way i can cure my thoughts I am going to have to push for a lynch.

VOTE: viking

you do realize under the old plan you were supposed to be the kill, not me, from rando. It's the plan that was mentioned all day yesterday. It's far more likely to use your logic, that scum had one of two goals. Either frame you for the murder, if you're innocent, (Hey, Kop was supposed to be dead? why didn't he die? must be that either him or rando is scum!) or that you are scum and wanted to save yourself from getting killed.

Who was actually targeted has pretty much nothing to do with it as who was targeted came out of left field and basically no one could foresee it. And this all assumes rando is telling the truth. If he's scum, then this has a far easier solution. Is there a reason why you're not willing to consider this solution, Kop?

[vikingfan]

So Random voted for Viking, and Viking voted Random, so Random has shot the guy that both were voting for each other, so let's put another assumption out here, from thinking more about it, it might be far fetched, but I'd like others thoughts on this too, not just from Random or Viking.

Viking sees that Random has voted for him and with random roleclaiming one shot vig, viking may think with his vote being on him, he was the one he was going to shoot, so lets assume viking is scum, to which one of his partners is the roleblocker or viking could be the roleblocker, anyway to which they use to block his shot in case that random shoots him because that's where his vote is, so whilst he is saved, it would put doubt amongst the town that he is telling the truth about his shot.

Okay, this is too much wine.
Why would we assume all of this and what does it tell us?
If we are assuming all of this, why no vote on Viking?

Didn't think of that -_-
I still have mt shot if I was rbed.

Is that a thing?
I feel like that's not a thing.

Why would you assume your shot is still valid if RB'd?

I was asking other people's thoughts on it. I don't want to push another lynch forward and end up with another mislynch. But the more and more I think about it the only way i can cure my thoughts I am going to have to push for a lynch.

VOTE: viking

you do realize under the old plan you were supposed to be the kill, not me, from rando. It's the plan that was mentioned all day yesterday. It's far more likely to use your logic, that scum had one of two goals. Either frame you for the murder, if you're innocent, (Hey, Kop was supposed to be dead? why didn't he die? must be that either him or rando is scum!) or that you are scum and wanted to save yourself from getting killed.

Who was actually targeted has pretty much nothing to do with it as who was targeted came out of left field and basically no one could foresee it. And this all assumes rando is telling the truth. If he's scum, then this has a far easier solution. Is there a reason why you're not willing to consider this solution, Kop?

Yeah I know what the old plan was, but welcome to the new one.

And I can see the logic behind what you said about 'hey I was supposed to be dead', that would have been there plan had Random not come out, and STATE who he shot. So let's put the further logic to your plan, now the tables have turned, it should be you who is dead, not me, as Random has already said he shot you, so why should I die, if he mentioned he shot you? How would that frame me?

Now there is one thing that is stinking about your post, and I will state this before I go on, lynch me if that will cure everybodies thoughts, and that will give everybody the answer to your part "that you are scum and wanted to save yourself from getting killed" that I am a VT, and I suggest they lynch you next. Back to the post, this is striking me, a lot more than it has been, this is scum defending corners, he has got the shot roleblocked and he is going to be at the forefront of defending it all, trying to look pro town and trying to put FOS onto someone.

I don't think you understand where I'm coming from. Let me explain it again. The reason I am talking about the way things were supposed to be is that scum was operating under the assumption that is what was going to happen. Town was operating under that assumption. Therefore, you have to ask, what would have been the outcome under your idea of a mafia roleblocker? Either rando would be perceived as being guilty for lack of a kill or you would be because rando was going to shoot you and you wanted to stay alive. The reason why it doesn't matter in my case is simply this: nobody could have foreseen rando picking me. let me put it this way: would you be voting wicked if rando claimed he had shot wicked? havingfitz? aristo? I doubt it.

More to the point, I don't like how you are tunneling onto one possible hypothesis for this without even considering the much more likely scenario of rando lying. Your certainty that we have a mafia roleblocker seems to indicate at inside knowledge only scum would have. I prefer to remain open to all options. And you need to remember, we are investigating the assumptions on what people were operating under last night to indicate some idea of the reasons behind their actions.

[vikingfan]

I was logging in to check a pm.
I want to move towards getting this solved today. Viking being alive has completely thrown me off.
If I was scum why would we shoot Saul. If I was scum I would've claimed I shot Saul and mafia didn't shoot to frame me.
VOTE: viking
If it makes you happy.

And yet here you are posting bullshit one liners again. Did you not have time to post here? If you shot at Viking last night why not vote him today when day started? Why is Kop the first to lay down a vote on someone you were sure enough is scum that you supposedly took a shot at?

Ironic
I wasn't 100% sold on Viking scum, but I needed to take a shot that night. As I said, i'm reconsidering tonight. Right now the most likely probabilities are that mafia has a roleblocker or a protective protected Viking. I think the first is more likely as Viking wasnt an obvious choice for protection.

your posting has been a problem all game, rando. You've selected certain posts to respond to and not others (such as havingfitz's questions above). Why are you not responding to all of them? why are you just now posting a case against me when one was asked for weeks ago? why is it that you claimed that you thought you were lynched in this game but as soon as you got to L-1 with Kop posting an intent to hammer you and Aristo immediately asking for a prod/claim, you posted within 20 minutes of his post. Why have you been lurky the first two days? It's only really today that you've actually been playing and even now, you're only responding about stuff you want to talk about. That's not how the game is played.

[vikingfan]

My responses in bold.

Greetings all!

What's Kelbris' timezone, out of curiousity?

And this is my second game back after a years-long hiatus. FAQ2 and Cheetory played with me in the first one so they have a
n idea of how I play. I think I played with massive in the old days too.

And since we're in the RVS of the game, what's everyone's story of how they picked their user name. I'm a fan of the MN Vikings and that's about all there is to it .

Pointless fluff. Tend to see this behaviour from scum.

This is RVS . What do you expect in RVS in my first post of the game?

So, Flames, you just say that Hodor's post is scummy, vote him, and that's it. Mind contributing some on the other players?

Kelbris' play is stupid (page 3? Seriously?) but I'm inclined to write it off as newbtown. Lynching later does have the policy advantage of knowing we're not killing a town PR (town PRs should NEVER claim townie).

I hate this. Basically saying that kelbris is a good lynch despite townreading them.

So? One can townread a player while still acknowledging them as a good policy lynch. The two are not contradictory.

After looking back, my best scumread is random. Everyone else is null for me at this point.

Random, why do you believe kelbris is town? you say he is but don't give any backup for it. You make a lot of statements but don't back them up. People don't like backing up their statements because it provides something that can be referred to later.

VOTE: vote random

This doesn't make sense. An unexplained poiny csn be pressured better later as you force them to explain their view rather than recite what they wrote earlier.

I have no idea what you are saying here. What makes pressuring better later as compared to right that moment? One can explain their views right then and there with no need for reciting.

OK, Wicked, I think I understand your question a little more. Quite simply I dont' know why Flames would cast a vote he couldn't justify. But it's still bad behavior and people have done it before and been scum (and also, admittedly, town). beyond that, I don't really have anything to offer you because I'm still not completely sure i understand what you're trying to get at.

As for the second part of your post, I must have missed his response in the reread. Sometimes things strike me upon a reread that didn't at the time they occurred.

Currently, Monkey, your post confuses me. So your post wasn't directed toward me but toward oka? did you have anything for me or did you have nothing?

Seems to be deflecting attention away from himself. Repeats this with lqck of contribution today when he is clearly going ti be important.

Nah, I was just explaining my actions. And people everywhere in this game explain their actions to deflect attention away from themselves. It's not an inherently scummy behavior by itself.

I agree as well. Policywise, kelbris seems to be the best play. Though Oka seems to have a lot of the same benefits (I highly doubt a PR would offer to self-hammer, a PR would claim rather than self-hammer so I'm pretty sure Oka is either VT or scum) so I guess it depends on which one people prefer.

And I totally agree on random and Aristo but it seems like that has no juice so it's either oka or kelbris, we just need to settle on one to avoid a no-lynch.

Seems to only want to lynch policy lynches. Town don't care about this. Town want to lynch scum.

Except that often policy lynches can also lead to scum lynches. You're inferring that the opposite is true.

VOTE: monkey. Let's try this again

Says he would rather vote oka in previous post then votes monkey. Seems to be hopping wagons where ever he wants.

We have yet to hear from Wicked, random, and Saul since the game restarted so yeah prods are warranted.

I want to hear from wicked personally myself and random is not doing anything to erase my suspicion of him with his extremely low contributioin quotient. He's still my #1 suspect currently and there's no way on earth I want him to last until endgame. Unfortunately it takes other people to create a wagon to at least get him to contribute.

Upon preview, wicked's working on his post so that's a start.

Not really explaining why he suspects me at this point. Just trying to push the lynch through.

Lol, I don't think you looked at the other posts complaing about you for this one.

dang, I go on V/LA and nothing changes in 2 days .

Saul, the game is played by playing and interacting, not by lurking. Though the scummiest thing by far I've seen is putting oka -1 without even informing anyone. I've been beating this drum all game so am glad to see others following the same line of thought. VOTE: vote random

and I concur with havingfitz, is there a reason why you listed all these players as town? especially oka and kelbris?

on kelbris leaving but I don't blame you.

Why is putting someone at l-1 scummy? You were prepared to lynch a townread to stop a no lynch but this is much worse?

Depends on the circumstances, it can certainly be scummy. If it's done right after a vc, or something like that, no. I don't remember the circumstances of this one at this point.

viking...

I don't think you ever listed me as scum so your point to havingfitz doesn't make sense.

I haven't, yet, but you've been a main candidate so far and wicked has listed you as a scum candidate before. When I was asking, it wasn't a reflection of how I felt about you, it was a reflection of how wicked felt about you. Make sense?

I have never listed Oka as a scum candidate. In fact, he is one of the few players (if not, the only player) that I have consistently town read.

Hmm, after reviewing your ISO, in post #437, you note that oka is a very weak town read but also acknowledge that oka would be a very informative lynch. Do you still believe this?

Oka is probably town and this recently-formed wagon on random is even worse. Can we vote somebody for something

other

than lack of contribution? I

still

get the impression that these wagons revolve around contribution-levels. Sorry, but I don't sign up for mafia games to policy lynch. We are currently pursuing null tells that towns chase after in virtually

every game

that I've played... Maybe that's why everyone's so bored. Oka and random clearly don't care about racking up town points. Let's go after something more interesting, like vikingfan's interest in my Monkey-case only after he helped with the mislynch:

Because I was A, interested in hearing your responses to massive's questions and B, interested in getting input from the players who haven't chimed in yet on day 2 of the game (now day 3).

You were interested in hearing my response to massive's questions about my vote for Monkey?

Huh...

You didn't seem interested when you made this post:

UNVOTE: I can get on board with a monkey lynch, I'm not a fan of the oka wagon or the people on it. VOTE: monkey. Posting from my phone so if this looks strange that's why.

Vote: vikingfan

Any particular reason for this? Or is it simply this previous post?

This I don't understand. If you would have been happy to unvote until Monkey claimed, then why didn't you? you could have easily said that you were waiting until he claimed.

I didn't un-vote because a.) I wasn't expecting havingfitz to hammer and b.) un-voting can be seen as false expression of doubt, even if I make it clear that I'm just waiting for a claim.

Because I was A, interested in hearing your responses to massive's questions and B, interested in getting input from the players who haven't chimed in yet on day 2 of the game (now day 3).

You were interested in hearing my response to massive's questions about my vote for Monkey?

Huh...

You didn't seem interested when you made this post:

UNVOTE: I can get on board with a monkey lynch, I'm not a fan of the oka wagon or the people on it. VOTE: monkey. Posting from my phone so if this looks strange that's why.

To start with, I don't get your claim that you weren't expecting havingfitz to hammer. You yourself specifically said it was all up to havingfitz to vote, havingfitz noted RL reasons why he had to hammer soon. What exactly did you expect to happen? When players reference R/L events, I tend to believe them unless given pressing reason otherwise and I haven't seen it this game. also, you can specifiy that you're watiing for a claim when you unvote and people can take it as they will. plus, a little later, you note that you wouldn't have believed a power role claim anyway so obviously a claim didn't matter to you at all.

and I'm interested in hearing different people's reactions, especially since there's so little going on.

As for random, I'm not impressed by a vote with a promise of a case, I'll wait to see what your case is before I can rebut anything.

Now attacks the other person suspecting him.
Part two tomorrow.

lol I was responding, not attacking. There's a difference.

[vikingfan]

More to the point, I don't like how you are tunneling onto one possible hypothesis for this without even considering the much more likely scenario of rando lying.

Why does scum-randomidget lie about changing his night target?

Um, scum rando would not be a vig at all, ergo he never had a target.

[vikingfan]

Sure, but why would he come into town the next morning and claim he changed his target to some other non-dead player? Why wouldn't he just say he shot Kop and was blocked? What's the benefit of the extra information?

Either to A, throw us off the trail and make us think he's telling the truth, or B, has something to do with scum buddies would be my guess. but only a guess.

[vikingfan]

I still don't get it... When was I using saul's absence?
Also you still haven't explained why I claimed to shoot Viking if I'm scum.

Several questions have been asked of you in this thread. Mind anwering them? Aristo asked one, havingfitz asked a bunch.

[vikingfan]

lol the only reason I'm at L-2 is because 3 people are voting me and one only because of pressure, I've seen no actual indication from any other player that they're interested in voting me so I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

That said, it also seems like random isn't getting any traction either so it may be time for us to start branching off to other prospects, much as I don't like rando's play. And to answer the question, I'm not sure if he's scummy or not to be honest. I just know his play is definitely not helping town, especially with his outright refusal to answer questions. Plus, he posts a case on me, declares it to be part 1, I rebut it, and he comes back again and posts a couple of one-liners and never posts part 2, much less rebut what I wrote.

Any thought on finding scum among the vote counts? It's page 39 and we've yet to see much investigation on those. Currently, fitz (though forced to be the hammer), wicked, and FA are the ones on both lynches so that is a place to start.

[vikingfan]

um, no, you didn't. wicked said he wanted an EXPLANATION and I checked your ISO and it doesn't look like you explained anything. And if you're trying to find the questions, you're obviously not trying very hard since fitz, for starters, has been asking his repeatedly. plus I already rebutted part 1 and you've posted quite a bit since then with no rebuttal so I guess you agree with my points. I can't decide if you're deliberately trying to play dumb or if reading comprehension is not your forte but either way, it's definitely not helpful to town.
Mark

[vikingfan]

prod dodge, been busy the last couple days, will post later tonight or tomorrow.

[vikingfan]

Back, sorry for my absence there.

wrt viking Post 954 - You spent most of D1 and D2 on random Idgit. Why? Do you find random suspect? And if your opinion towards random is no different today than it was D1 and D2...why bemoan the fact that his wagon is not getting traction while you yourself or not voting him? As for votecount analysis...I'm a huge proponent of votecount analysis but this game has not been good for that. D1 everyone was pushing for Monkey or Oka...and they were lynched in that order. So D1 scum could have been on either wagon just as easily as the other. The D1 wagons basically cancel each other out wrt vote analysis benefit. And D2's mislynch (Oka) was at one point or another voted by everyone still in the game (except for you).

I actually think there is more room for suspicion OFF the Oka wagon at D2's end.

Yes, I still think randomidget is scummy for the most part and the only thing that is saving his bacon currently is his claim. Now that his kill failed, he is still trying to explain his missing kill as being due to a mafia roleblocker (except, how do we know one is in the setup?) It's much easier for me to believe that he simply lied about his claim and thus the missing kill is self-explanatory. Pretty much everyone hated his play day 1 and 2 and even with his more involved play now, it's not really helping him that much. That being said, if he's scum, he's also got buddies. And I thought I was voting him, my bad.

vote randomidget

.

I said that I wss used to shot being conserved if roleblocked due to town of Salem.
I didn't know epm was in the game until the flip, so I checked in the title post who he replaced, and the chances are that scum killed the slot bc Saul rather than bc epm. Thetefore it makes more sense to talk about what Saul was doing. You are going to look like a dick when it turns out I was telling the truth.

This is a totally different mod and site. Based off THIS site and mod (to the best of your ability) do you think you still have a shot?

But I said I wasn't shooting kop,

As everyone else has already noted, you never said so. I'll be honest, I don't know if rando is scum or not, but this is blatantly anti-town behavior. Guess this is another of the 1 million things you forgot to post and is totally untrustworthy at this point (if we can't trust him as town on this, can we trust him as town on anything?). And I never saw a part 2 of the case on me either like you promised along with a lot of other things. But since randoscum probably has scum buddies, I will evaluate other candidates. I don't have time for an iso wall on each player so a brief rundown will suffice of where I'm at gutfeel-wise.

Rando: either scum or anti-town behavior.
wicked: leaning town
fitz: town
FF: not sure on him, the kill on slandaar night 1 would make sense if he is scum. And yes, I know, that could be easy framing as well.
Aristo: I would like to see more active playing and less sheeping, though he has been less guilty of it today than other days.
FA: town
Kop: leaning scum, especially if rando is actually misguided town, blocking rando's kill makes perfect sense to preserve himself.
massive: town.

And I concur, other than rando's wall on me, I haven't seen much in the way of a case on me either that I can respond to. An unvote would be cool so we avoid an accidental hammer. And I'm just VT.

[vikingfan]

?

You are at L-1. It is time to claim. Why did you not claim in the above?

Did you not read my last sentence in the post?

[vikingfan]

I already said why I thought I had my shot.
I didn't shoot n1 because I wasn't cinfident in my reads and didn't have to.

right. But do you think you have your shot now? That's what I was asking. I know what you thought in the past.

[vikingfan]

It's not Aristophanes, it's definitely vikingfan who is running that show.

738: Do we direct him or do we forego having him shoot at all?
771: How do we know even if we are directing him that he will shoot who we want?
783: Can we replace him?
804: How do we know even if we are directing him that he will shoot who we want?
807: Can we replace him?
812: Are you going to do what we tell you to do?
843: Are you going to do what we tell you to do? (while voting him)
852: Gonna keep voting him until he says he'll do what we tell him to do
858: Fitz do you think he will do what we tell him to do?
866: Are you going to do what we tell you to do? (the Circle Yes/No edition)
882: Well clearly he's not gonna do what we tell him to do

END SCENE

Aristophanes' involvement is basically to say "if we lynch Oka, are you OK shooting Kop?" That's 762. He runs with that in 795 and 844 and moves his vote to Random to try and force it, but it doesn't feel nearly as desperate to line up a confirmed shot as vikingfan does.

Um, first of all, it was clearly documented on days 1 and 2 that rando was clearly not involved in the game. If you want to go back and look, clearly and repeatedly, rando has not been involved. When called on various things, he has said repeatedly, 'I forgot to post that' or 'I thought I said that'. The last thing I wanted was for him to weasel out and say, 'I forgot' AGAIN. Heck, even a statement, 'yes, I am going to shoot tonight' would have sufficed. SOMETHING to show that yes, he is involved and playing the game. That wasn't forthcoming and for that reason I am still dubious that he is town...had he claimed VT instead of vig, he would have been long gone by now. As it is, it's an unprovable claim, espeically if he claims tomorrow that 'well I don't have my shot anymore'. Then what?

[vikingfan]

He mentioned 'tracking' people that were not posting and the reference seemed out of place and matched his meta for the last time I played with him (where he claimed cop, was lynched anyway and was telling the truth)

I don’t like the VT claim because I was thinking that he was trying to crumb tracker. Possible that he set this up then and forgot to follow up when he received some pressure. The case around him others have presented is a decent case and without him being a PR I don’t see a good reason not to lynch him.

Correct, that was not a breadcrumb, I was simply trying to follow up on people who were not posting. That would have been a good breadcrumb if I was actually scum and fakeclaiming though, but I'm not.

[vikingfan]

Um, first of all, it was clearly documented on days 1 and 2 that rando was clearly not involved in the game. If you want to go back and look, clearly and repeatedly, rando has not been involved. When called on various things, he has said repeatedly, 'I forgot to post that' or 'I thought I said that'. The last thing I wanted was for him to weasel out and say, 'I forgot' AGAIN. Heck, even a statement, 'yes, I am going to shoot tonight' would have sufficed. SOMETHING to show that yes, he is involved and playing the game. That wasn't forthcoming and for that reason I am still dubious that he is town...had he claimed VT instead of vig, he would have been long gone by now. As it is, it's an unprovable claim, espeically if he claims tomorrow that 'well I don't have my shot anymore'. Then what?

Why was it imperative that you know whether or not he was going to shoot? At which points in the day did you think he was town, and which points did you think he was scum?

So that we could verify if he was telling the truth, of course. I think you've forgotten just how much rando was under fire day one and two and probably would have been lynched if not for his claim. I still don't think he's town per se, but if he is, he has been very dumbtown especially day one and two. think about how he assumed he was just 'lynched' and how he says he posted things but forgot (too many times to count). I think you've forgotten just how scummy he was day one and two, although admittedly day 3 he's been far better at being engaged. not sure why you're asking the same questions over again I just answered. And now rando has said that if he was blocked, his shot is gone, so that makes his claim perfectly unverifiable now and now makes him VT with an ability nobody can prove he ever used.

[vikingfan]

Mod, any chance we can get an extension to the deadline while we wait for a replacement for Kop? I'd rather not be lynched without a full game.

For me, I find it very interesting that there is absolutely no counterwagon. Nobody has even TRIED going anywhere other than me (other than me and occasional other people going for idget). This, IMO, is not good for town because when I turn up town, vote count analysis will do absolutely nothing, just like day 1. Now, obviously, you guys don't know that, but even from a neutral point of view, this is still a bad thing because whether you think I will turn up scum or town, the fact that everyone was on my wagon won't do much to actually tell you who scum is. If you believe I'm scum, then scum are obviously bussing me to try and blend in with the crowd, and if you believe I'll turn up town, then you're in lylo with 3 days of vote counts and precious little information to be gotten out of them.

ANd I don't see how my wanting a replacement for rando is scummy when rando had basically disappeared. It's always better playing with a full game, especially as town. fitz blatantly misreading my post doesn't sit well with me.

[vikingfan]

I don't play meta. It's more about the Riblet v Slandaar fight from D1 -- I don't think if you have a scum in that fight, that you want to prove one half of that fight is town.

I suppose not.
Wouldn't he the first time I've seen something of the sort though, and having replaced the spot, not the one arguing it himself, I could still believe it.

Yeah, I don't know. I went back and re-read it and Slandaar was still pushing to lynch the slot, even after Formerfish replaced in. Slandaar is a notorious tunneller and it IS possible that scum killed him to let scum-Formerfish have some time to come into the game. ... either way, it's not something that needs to be sorted today, I don't think.

---

The only thing my re-read has really done for me is make me wonder how on earth Kop is still around.

Kop's around because a wagon hasn't built up enough to lynch him. he was prime material yesterday and we were going to have random shoot him to eliminate a scum target but that didn't happen, rando claimed he went for me instead and made up a case I was scum off that and people really haven't looked at Kop since. I'd be all for a Kop wagon given his and Kelbris's play but it's hard lynching an empty slot right now, otherwise i'd be all over it.

[vikingfan]

(Either that or someone can hammer and give Iknal the night to find someone, but whatevs. More discussion is good and stuff)

And yes, 1061 was sarcasm.

So fitz suggests a counter-wagon after massive criticizes rhe lack of inr. Interesting.

You're not playing stupid again, are you?

Viking, I too would be okay with a Kop lynch, but as you say, perhaps that is better for another day?
I know we are getting close to losing this and I don't like it, but what can we do when it seems everyone has placated and is just cool to lynch whoever the wagon is on?

The other way we could go is just to lynch the slot given all the scummy behavior that's happened around it but i don't like doing it when the original players are no longer around to defend themselves and the new player will be stuck defending stuff he didn't do. The trouble is, the slot is still scummy as heck and at least 3 of us are willing to go after it.

Here's the thing i find interesting. If I was really scum, you'd expect to see scum out there defending me given the state of the game and that's not happening. Everyone is blending in though attacking and voting me (and if they're not voting me, they've indicated they're happy to lynch me). This as compared to days one and two where there were heavy wagons on different people. When the scum haven't yet lost a member, do you really think they're going to start off day 3 by bussing a fellow scum member without even trying to raise a counterwagon? Or do you think they're going to latch onto the easiest scum target possible? I think we all know the answer to that which is why I'm glad we have an extension.

[vikingfan]

Let's see if I can get something started. VOTE: vote kop since massive and aristo have already indicated interest in going after him. and 2 days is nothing, wicked got monkey lynched in less time. though like i said, there really shouldn't be a deadline without a player in kop's slot, unless he's the one we pick to lynch. There's no question his slot has been scummy across 2 different players.

[vikingfan]

If I was really scum, you'd expect to see scum out there defending me given the state of the game and that's not happening.

Now is a perfectly reasonable time to bus because scum can afford to lose a member for the benefit of earning town points. This is an awful argument.

Kop is probably town, I've explained why, and will be disappointed if he is lynched today...

Bussing from the very beginning of day 3 with no more than 1 vote on any other player? Especially since I wasn't high on the scumdar day 1 or 2 so if I was scum, which I'm not, bussing a scum player purely for town points so early in day 3 isn't wise. Scum would be thinking more about preserving a scum player and driving a counter wagon. Until a scum player is lynched, we won't have that much information and scum would want to delay that as long as possible. Besides, bussing a scum player to gain town points can backfire, I've done it myself before as scum and still got lynched later.

And rando is v/la so we won't have his help for a lynch and kop is still out so we're stuck trying to do a lynch with 7 players in a 9-player game. This is not optimal.

[vikingfan]

grr...go scum! Though I still feel the logic behind my lynch was totally illogical.

[vikingfan]

well done havingfitz! woohoo on the great claim!

I'm amazed my vote on Kop worked out as well as it did .

[vikingfan]

btw, the no-kill was due to FF flaking out and they didn't get a kill in. Massive had nothing to do with it.

[vikingfan]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=61055

That's our scum thread for those who mention it.

BTW, this game is also a good example of why you don't claim VT so early on day one, kelbris. We got 2 VT claims day one, we were 3 mafia, and so we figured we had a good chance at hitting a PR with our night one kill and we got the cop . Our block on rando also paid off well since he would have killed me otherwise and gave me an extra day. I was surprised people didn't notice that I didn't really interact with fitz or FF that much. we'd have won the game a lot sooner if people had actually listened to us on rando.

[vikingfan]

Actually, you know what, scratch post 1094 - I do

not

need to reread right now.

I have had decently strong town reads on Kop, random, and Aristo for a while now. That leaves FA_Q2, Formerfish, havingfitz, and massive. I was starting to reconsider Formerfish, but then I noticed this post;

Massive, what were you looking at when you voted? The last page has a vote count that shows viking at l-1 as well.

This post seems to convey some mild frustration with massive for accidentally hammering. If Formerfish was scum, and partners with viking, then he probably would not be so obvious in his frustration over the viking lynch. This makes a lot more sense coming from Formerfishtown that preferred a Kop lynch and genuinely believed that viking was town.

havingfitz is also town for asking if random shot last night. If he was scum then he would have probably figured out that random no longer had his shot - either he would have read random's posts more carefully or his partner would have informed him.

Sure, both of these points could be defended by WIFOM, but I really don't think that Formerfish/havingfitz are being tricky right now.

That means the scum are FA and massive.

Vote: FA_Q2

I must disagree with almost the whole of the latter part of this post.
I believe we are looking at Fitz and FF as scum.

I reread all of D3 just now and noticed some things.

FF only comes out to comment when A) proddodging B) his name is mentioned C) he finds a reason to take the heat off of Viking and put it on Random, Kop, or myself.
He did sound annoyed at the hammer, but how does that absolve him?
He stated multiple times that Random was still his biggest scum read but didn't vote him. He then, when voting Kop, said "well if we can't lynch Random, this is a good alternative." (Obvious paraphrasing here) even though Random was. It's almost like he wanted someone else to stert the counterwagon so he could blend in on it more easily.
And I still read his question about me being the real push behind handcuffing Random both a big leap and unfounded. He was trying to paint me as scummy even though it was not I who was the biggest push.

VOTE: FormerFish


As for Fitz, he started today with an extremely unhelpful post. How does NK speculation on why there was no kill help us in the least??
And Wickedest, I call bullshit on him missing that post by Random.
Look at his ISO on Viking. He went post by post to make him look as "meh" as possible. He made it hard to follow and asked almost no questions. His verdict after it was "well, Random is still a better lynch."
Now look at his Random one. The language is damning. He makes it easy to follow, strings things together, provides links and asks stuff. It looks to me like he was trying really hard to get a case anywhere but on Viking.
He also wrote it up 20 posts or so after Random confirmed his lack of shot.
If he had actually looked at Random rather than simply trying to demonize him, he would have noticed it. He went waaay into Viking and came out with nothing, yet without reading Random cherrypicked what he could spin against him.

This, right here, is your scum team.
Let's do this!

@Random:

Why FA for your vote?

@Wicked:

Do you have an actual case on FA and Massive or just a non-case for FF and Fitz?
Massive, after yesterday, I am townreading.
This sudden jump to conclusions seems really rash and I am losing some of the townlean I had on you.

Thank goodness you didn't stick to your guns on this post, I was scared when I saw it but nobody followed through on it. I'm glad we were able to lead the town around on oka, rando, Kop, monkey, and kelbris, for as long as we did. what would a mass claim day 4 have accomplished wicked? You bought the hider claim it seemed like to me.

[vikingfan]

The game was over, FA. Fitz was the scum roleblocker so the play would have been to kill and block massive (he did that on the previous night with rando) and then the game would have been over from there so nothing was ruined.